Slashdot Mirror
SpaceX Gets Astronauts To Try Out Its Dragon Crew Cabin
Zothecula writes "With the space shuttle program now officially over, the United States needs a new reusable vehicle for getting supplies to and from the International Space Station. NASA is considering the Dragon spacecraft, designed by California-based SpaceX Exploration Technologies, to take over that role. The Dragon's scheduled late March/early April test flight to the ISS will be unmanned, utilizing a cargo configuration of the spacecraft. Last Friday, however, SpaceX released photographs of an engineering model of its planned seven-passenger crew cabin, complete with a crew that included real, live astronauts."
Made it sound like they were making good progress on both the commercial cargo and manned launch fronts. Even Obama has visited their facilities.
As much admiration as I have for these guys, sometimes I get tired of hearing them talk, only because of their lack of perspective. I heard a talk from an SR-71 pilot a while ago, lamenting the end of that program, and how wonderful it was, and how special it is to have it so that people can do such things, and how we should still be doing it. And I do think it's neat, and had a place in the world when it was created. It was a technological wonder that doubtless caused research that lead to a lot of other mass benefits.
But that's not my point. I think some of these guys see the stuff as worthwhile just for its own sake, and lose the fact that millions of people pay billions of dollars so that scores of pilots can fly really fast. And they lose the wonder of the advances made in the everyday world, for the everyday person.
Yesterday, I downloaded an app, for free, to my Android phone. It used satellites and radios to track me a course to ride on my bike superimposed on images sent from a server across the continent. That's fucking amazing. And everyone can do it.
I wonder sometimes if part of the opposition to this sort of space exploration is the fact that, some day, space travel may just not be that special. And they'll lose the romanticism of it.
I was also very impressed by that part of 60 Minutes.
It was striking how Elon Musk (the SpaceX boss) looked on the verge of crying. Apparently seeing Neil Armstrong side against his endeavors was tough to take.
For me, the astronauts siding against SpaceX are defending what they think is the most reliable and proven way to go to space. Their interpretation could be the following:
- Nasa has had success and will have more success with enough funding
- SpaceX is unproven and might be unable to ever achieve what NASA could do
- SpaceX threatens NASA funding by its very existence (Politicians can think "why give NASA billions now if I can wait a couple years and there is a chance SpaceX will do the same for hundreds of millions?")
Let's hope SpaceX or their competitors succeed, otherwise we are going to stay grounded as the US government is not prepared to invest in space conquest.
The seats, particularly the top 2 in the middle, look really close together. In jumpsuits or other normal clothes this wouldn't be a problem as in the photo, but I'm not seeing how two astronauts wearing an ACES, Sokol or some private sector pressure suit could sit side by side in the top seats without one of them placing his arm on top of the the guy beside him. The Soviets already tried the idea of suitless ascent/re-entry so they could fit 3 seats instead of 2 and it killed Soyuz 11's crew - even with good engineering there are too many ways a pressure leak can occur during launch or landing conditions to risk the astronauts life on a single point of failure. Are they really planning a suitless cabin layout or was this just a pure publicity photo instead of an honest test?
Well, the crew isn't being strapped to the outside of the capsule, now are they? The article is about how a crew might feel about the accommodations inside the Dragon capsule, so why the hell wouldn't they have a bunch of interior shots?
If you want images of the exterior of the craft, use your search engine of choice: the internet shall provide.
I guess he's just doing his blind loyalty thing for NASA, but come on. 3 astronauts killed in a pure oxygen atmosphere? 2 shuttles and crew lost spectacularly?
And that was when money was no problem. Imagine if NASA had been trying to get to the moon in the economic environment of ValuJet.
If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
Well seeing as how you can put a lazy boy in a cardboard box and shoot me into space I would be quite comfortable until my box exploded. I would be more comfortable as a crew member knowing the exterior of my wessel was sturdy and well designed.
The government tends to get Over Cautious on Loss of life mostly because bad press reflects everyone so badly. Yes Commercial organizations will be a little more lax on safety at first however they will be able to innovate faster... In the long run making a far safer and better methods of getting into space.
NASA Needs to be super careful every time they do something... Sometimes too much that real mistakes happen, because they spend too much time looking at X and not enough time looking at Y.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Think about this: which would you rather fly, a government owned airline or Southwest?
While I will be the first to say that the congressional testimony of Neil Armstrong and Gene Cernen about commercial spaceflight was more shilling for the traditional launcher builders (Lock-Mart, Boeing, ATK) than about any real concerns, there is a legitimate issue at hand in terms of moving to commercial services. There are examples of commercial outsourcing for government services that fall flat on their face (Blackwater Security... to give an example) where it does work better if they are government employees doing the job.
On the other hand, these same guys shilling for the SLS vehicle are also dissing well established vehicles like the Delta IV and Atlas V, suggesting those vehicles are so unreliable that shipping multi-billion dollar satellites into orbit isn't proof that they can also ship people into orbit too.
I don't think the issue at hand is that spaceflight should be special, but that these two former astronauts simply don't accept the possibility that some of these new companies like SpaceX and Blue Origin have the right motivations to be able to provide a safe and effective way to get into space. There is also the distinct possibility that these younger companies simply don't know enough about spacecraft engineering to be able to compete against the traditional companies either. There are examples of some of these companies having to "relearn" lessons from the past by blowing up rockets or other mistakes which caused a mission failure that the more traditional companies wouldn't have done, so the concern that perhaps what these young upstarts are doing could in the long run cost more is legitimate.
The problem with this line of thought is that it is presuming that the federal government is going to be footing the tab for failures by private companies. Instead, what you actually do see is that private commercial spaceflight developers are risking their own money (or the money of their investors) and when they make too many mistakes, the companies simply go bankrupt. Organizations like Benson Aerospace, Kistler, or "Space Services, Inc. of America" have tried in the past to build rockets and have failed to do so. Indeed there is a big list of failed companies. On the bright side, there seem to be several companies who have learned the lessons from the past and are being successful today in spite of those past failures of others.
Yes, there is a pilot console for the astronauts in this cabin, and even a separate "mission commander's" console that has been planned. If you want to see at least a simulation of what is envisioned, checkout this video:
http://www.spacex.com/multimedia/videos.php?id=6
It certainly has real pilots running the vehicle and doing some actual piloting. As a matter of fact, the "ground crew" for the Falcon 9 is considerably less than anything NASA has done for manned spaceflight even though there will be a "mission control" center monitoring the functions of the vehicle like you may have seen with other spacecraft.
the exterior of my wessel was sturdy and
Pavel Chekov... is that you?
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
You are probably right, but in addition to that, I think there are also ITAR issues. So even stuff they might be willing to share otherwise, they might be reluctant to show just to avoid the possibility of objections from the government.
The early astronauts were heros, selected as the best of the best, exploring space for the first time and fighting the cold war. They were symbols of national pride. Anyone that hasn't seen "The Right Stuff" really should see it, because this comes through loud and clear.
Commercial spaceflight is about making space accessible, inexpensive, on a schedule, and humdrum. Of course they hate it. It takes the bloom off their rose.
Think of the early sailing voyages... How many ships were loss at sea... When we are exploring a new area unfortunately people will die. There are too many factors to consider when every flight is new.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Oh, you mean you were looking for the article that describes the extremely confidential technical design review that NASA has done on the Dragon capsule, to see if it is space-worthy and (potentially) human-usable. Yes, I am quite certain we will see that posted next week.
Sweet! Will it be here on /.? I am going to be mad as hell if it turns out to be a cardboard box....
...astronauts wearing an ACES, Sokol or some private sector pressure suit...
I sort of hope they use Sokol suits, or something with compatible valves, making it easier for astronauts to go up in one type of space craft and, if necessary, return in a different one. Of course, the seat liners would also have to be compatible with the ones used in Soyuz, but it'd be nice to be able to switch crafts without having to send up a second pressure suite and seat liner, like we did when we had astronauts switching between the shuttle and a Soyuz mid flight.
#include <signature.h>
The spacecraft is worth a substantial amount of money. And the spacecraft needs the spam inside to make it work right. Even if you're only talking about economic interest, they'll put a fair amount of effort towards protecting said spam.
Look at the sequence of the failures: First 3 failures with all the ones after those being successful. This means that they learned the appropriate lessons from the early failures.
While the small number of flights is still too low to make me confident in their safety, I wouldn't say the early failures are a particular cause for concern. Its not like Orbital Sciences where the most recent launches have dumped their payloads in the ocean.
Sure, the next time you go flying on Delta Airlines, tell me how their safety record is and how they keep killing passengers on every flight they make (or even every once in awhile). While no doubt there are some slackers in the airline industry, there aren't that many.... they simply wouldn't be flying.
Also note that the FAA has jurisdiction over the flying of spacecraft too... from the Office of Commercial Space Transportation. While they are admittedly taking reference information from NASA in terms of human spaceflight experience and safety guidelines, ultimately that vehicle can't fly without FAA approval and even a flight worthiness certificate. Since the Dragon spacecraft is also docking on the ISS, SpaceX also needs to meet NASA standards, as well as JAXA, and Roscosmos standards too! If any one of them says "No", it can't dock up there (or rather be "bearthed" to the ISS as the remote manipulator arm attaches it to the ISS).
Your assertion that the first flight is going to end up with everybody dying is not only trolling, but it should be noted that SpaceX has already flown the spacecraft too... although that flight was unmanned as will be the next several flights as well. It will be on about flight six before any crew is even suggested to go up, where any really risky issues should have been resolved. SpaceX also has some full-time astronauts who are involved with the flight safety protocols who also wouldn't mind being among the first of those going up.... do you think those astronauts are going to risk their own necks on something that doesn't work?
Where SpaceX is saving money is both on the procurement costs and construction of the vehicle, because they don't need to send everything out for a GSA competitive bid nor do they have some congressmen poking them in the side to move some of their production to multiple congressional districts to ensure "their district" gets some more pork. On top of that, SpaceX has done an amazing job of streamlining the production process of building spacecraft by moving almost all of the part production in house and even in the same factory. As was said in the 60 Minutes piece, raw metal comes in one door and spacecraft come out the other. That doesn't happen for other spacecraft by the major builders for many of the reason I mention above and others as well.
The Dragon isn't being build with a cost-plus contract in part because SpaceX doesn't need to. There may be valid reasons to offer such a contract, but putting people into space has long been a solved engineering problem where it is possible to even understand the financial risks of putting people into space. That may not have been possible 50 years ago, but it is today.
Besides, it is in the interest of SpaceX to keep its passengers alive as killing off customers is bad for the bottom line. Elon Musk isn't that stupid.