Chinese Firm Helps Iran Spy On Citizens

Terrible! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-25 18:05 · Score: 5, Insightful

That's terrible they're taking marketshare from Cisco, Bluecoat and gang!

Re:Terrible! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-26 01:21 · Score: 0

Oh, and of course our favourite ever trolling folks at the Canadian company (yes we have shills too), Sandvine. They'll be losing market share too!!!
Re:Terrible! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-26 06:23 · Score: 0

Iran will spy on its citizens and China will spy on Iran. Cant ask for more.
Re:Terrible! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-26 12:53 · Score: 0

Actually, they are taking the *products* and the marketshare if you read the article.. China is *re-selling* US-technology to Iran, circumventing embargoes, as well as profiting immensely.. In many ways, not just monetary.

oh crap... by mevets · 2012-03-25 18:05 · Score: 4, Funny

Now the NSA is going to outsource to China too. What is left for the domestic high tech industry?

Re:oh crap... by game+kid · 2012-03-25 19:07 · Score: 5, Funny

Patent suits!

--
You can hold down the "B" button for continuous firing.
Re:oh crap... by PatPending · 2012-03-25 20:39 · Score: 1

What is left for the domestic high tech industry?
Selling of its assets.
Two recent examples:
1. AT&T to sell off $100 billion in real estate?
2. AOL hires Evercore to sell patent portfolio

--
What one fool can do, another can. (Ancient Simian Proverb)
Re:oh crap... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-25 23:15 · Score: 0

Valid point
Re:oh crap... by Sponge+Bath · 2012-03-26 01:44 · Score: 1

With manufacturing, supply chains, R&D, financing and soon management spreading more widely across the globe, patent accumulation will follow. Some newbies building a patent war chest will start with true innovations, but will quickly learn to game the US patent system with one-click nonsense and bury US companies. That may be the motivation for patent reform.
Re:oh crap... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-26 03:04 · Score: 0

Absolutely. Its so unpatriotic not to be able to spy on your own citizens.
Re:oh crap... by Ihmhi · 2012-03-26 03:58 · Score: 1

Patent suits!
I don't know if you could patent suits. There's a lot of prior art. And besides, shouldn't it be the textile industry or something going for that patent?

--
Random Thoughts From A Diseased Mind (Not For Dummies)

China will spy on Iran as well ........ by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-25 18:08 · Score: 1

Now Chinese will spy on Iran as well

An outrage by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-25 18:12 · Score: 1

Oh! ...so Iran is the country that spies on it's citizens.

That does it.

Re:An outrage by wmac1 · 2012-03-25 18:53 · Score: 5, Informative

Do we really care about Iranian citizens???
US and Europe has put economic embargo on Iran which directly harms normal Iranian. 30 years of embargo on civil aviation, directly supporting Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Iraq_during_the_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_war) , and now embargo on Iranian banks and swift banking communications have all been affecting normal Iranian citizens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._sanctions_against_Iran).
Re:An outrage by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-25 23:33 · Score: 0

Maybe Ahmidenijad and his buddies shouldn't have taken those American diplomats hostage in 1979, you know? A was one of the students who stormed the Tehran Embassy, iirc. So don't make out the current Iranian government to be victims here.
Re:An outrage by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-26 00:52 · Score: 1

Here is a glass of STFU for ya:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat
I'm guessing that you are a MIC propaganda shill - I can't wait for the day when you wanna be Nazis get your Nuremberg.
Re:An outrage by tnk1 · 2012-03-26 03:14 · Score: 1

Do we care about Iranian citizens?
I don't think anyone has a problem with them, in general. Problem is, you can't touch a repressive state like Iran without affecting its people.
Sometimes, you have to let people live with the consequences of their actions. In this case, the Iranian people need to realize that this isn't happening to them because they are Iranian, it's happening to them because they have a bunch of jerks in charge of their government. Ultimately, those people allow the mullahs to stay in power, and the reason they remain in power is because most of the people can live with the current situation. They may complain about it, but they really don't do much at all.
We are under no obligation to do business with a country just to keep its people happy. Their happiness is their own business.
Re:An outrage by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-26 06:08 · Score: 0

Problem is, you can't touch a repressive state like Iran without affecting its people.

Well, you can, but it requires black-bag methods like assasination that we decided a while back were off-limits for civilized nations.

Holy God.. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-25 18:12 · Score: 3, Insightful

how about a headline like: "Israeli firm hels USA to spy on citizens" or "American firm helps Sweden to spy on citizens".. this is happening everywhere. Google "lawful intercept".

Re:Holy God.. by siddesu · 2012-03-25 18:57 · Score: 1

Well, the intercept is also lawful in Iran, the only difference is how much the general populace gets to influence the laws. You have to concede that in America the population still has a lot more influence over the legislature than in Iran no matter how rabidly anti-American you are.
Re:Holy God.. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-25 19:24 · Score: 5, Insightful

That's cute except its not true. You only THINK you have more influence in America but in reality you're just as fucked as them.
What is/was your influence on SOPA? TSA? Patent laws? Weed? Death penalty? Stem cells? I see lots of talking and controversies with very little "deciding" and a lot of "here is what we have decided". Just because people didn't protest as much as they should about these issues doesn't mean its not worth protesting for.
Re:Holy God.. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-25 21:26 · Score: 2, Interesting

I'd say we had plenty effect on SOPA, seeing as it died.
Re:Holy God.. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-25 21:52 · Score: 2, Interesting

Let's take these one by one:
> SOPA?
They did have an effect on this one, it's dead (at least for now). The reason there is usually no effect is because people don't know enough about the laws, and some of them are even created in secret.
> TSA?
What about the TSA? Nobody likes it, but I don't think anyone has a better idea.
> Patent laws?
Well again, the problem here is that the general population has no idea about these. The people who do are usually the ones who benefit from having them. People who know enough to understand the problems patents cause, and aren't in a position to benefit from patents (i.e. individual coders, OSS enthusiasts) are a small number, and not well organized.
>Weed?
What about it? Most polls have shown only a minority in favor of legalizing it, so the law matches the people's will.
>Death penalty?
This varies by state, just as the polls do, so again, it would seem the law matches people's will.
> Stem cells?
This is another situation where most people don't really understand it, and to top it off, religious fanatics in the US have more lobbying power than scientists (and there are more of them). Sadly, this reflects majority rule as well.
The problem is that "Majority rule" isn't good when the majority is relatively uneducated, stupid, or apathetic. The alternative is to have a two tier voting system, where you have two tiers:
1. Basic citizen - Can vote on basic issues, have basic rights
2. Educated citizen - Educated in some area of information, so you can vote on that area as well.
But, obviously this would be abused, since people could be denied the right to vote by denying them the right to become a type 2 citizen somehow. For example, you could make sure only the "right" people can vote on patent reform by making sure only patent lawyers can vote. I'm sure they'll want to abolish patents, right?
Re:Holy God.. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-25 22:41 · Score: 1

Did the citizenry have an effect on this, or was it because Google and other large corps opposed it for their own economic well-being?
Re:Holy God.. by DroolTwist · 2012-03-26 02:19 · Score: 1

Either way, the citizenry had an effect. Not so much a direct effect on the legislature, but on Google and the other large corps. Without the support of the citizenry, Google and other large corps have no power (or money.. same thing, I guess). Regardless, the end result was the same.
Re:Holy God.. by jojoba_oil · 2012-03-26 02:22 · Score: 1

> TSA?
What about the TSA? Nobody likes it, but I don't think anyone has a better idea.
I think most people have a better idea: Do away with it.
It's a giant waste of money/time that offers only "security theater" in place of security.
Re:Holy God.. by siddesu · 2012-03-26 12:56 · Score: 1

You are very shortsighted or outright stupid to equate a democratic system to a dictatorship based on what influence you suppose one individual has on the system. First, as I pointed out, a democracy is a system where the will of large groups matter. Second, as long as I as an individual am not censored, I have the opportunity to influence the system by convincing large groups of people to listen to my message. This mechanism works in the US without doubt - many oppressive laws were removed in the past because of civil action, many bad practices are regulated, and there is some real public threat that has brought about most of the laws you complain about.
The particular laws may be good or bad, may be influenced by lobbying and so on, but there is little doubt that the mechanism works in the US and does not even exist in countries like Iran.
In short, grow up and try to see complex reality beyond the babble you're used to in your comfortable information bubble.

Dear Iranian Friends by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-25 18:13 · Score: 4, Funny

It's a well known fact that Chinese produce low-quality knock-offs that can't stand the test of time (or your pesky and stubborn dissidents).

I strongly suggest you procure top-quality American equipments - they let you go to eleven. Pay a little now and nail whole lot more pests in the long haul.

Re:Dear Iranian Friends by Chrisq · 2012-03-25 20:53 · Score: 3, Informative

It's a well known fact that Chinese produce low-quality knock-offs that can't stand the test of time (or your pesky and stubborn dissidents).
I strongly suggest you procure top-quality American equipments - they let you go to eleven. Pay a little now and nail whole lot more pests in the long haul.
I'm afraid you're 15 years out of date. The boards in the "top-quality American equipment" probably have "made in China" stamped on them.

The real question is... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-25 18:23 · Score: 1

who gave ZTE the technology so that they could get market share of China? Cisco? GE? IBM? Microsoft? GM? Ford? The list goes on and on and on.

Re:The real question is... by DigiShaman · 2012-03-25 18:36 · Score: 5, Interesting

Six years ago, I saw a ZTE branded IPTV router at a hotel in Shanghai. Cheap build quality on the plastics used, but it at least powered on and worked. Par for the course in China. Last year, I saw that the cheapest cellphone Verizon sold was by ZTE.
People buy cheap. It's how successfully companies generally start out by selling lower tiered products and eventually working their way up to high-end offerings. Watch for it! This company will be as huge as LG at their current rate.

--
Life is not for the lazy.

Anything to make money. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-25 18:28 · Score: 5, Interesting

A long time ago, during the time of the Shah, the U.S. government helped sell weapons to Iran.

Then the U.S. government helped sell weapons to Iraq, to fight a war with Iran.

Now the Chinese are encouraging hostile behavior against the welfare of Iran. Will China become the new money-for-destructiveness king?

Re:Anything to make money. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-25 18:38 · Score: 5, Interesting

Don't forget that USA still has the largest spying machines on earth, Echelon, Facebook and Google. Echelon is installed on major ISP's backbones and monitors the traffic of the whole world, while Google and Facebook collect as much information as possible about every human being on planet.
Re:Anything to make money. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-25 19:14 · Score: 5, Insightful

And before that the US and UK Gov helped overthrow Iran's government and install the Shah. I won't be surprised if most Iranians are still aware of that event in their history.

The Chinese are just selling to whoever wants to buy from them. If the Iranian people don't want their current government that's a different issue. The Chinese never claimed to be the good guys, nor do they go around telling others how to run their countries.

Not long ago the Palestinians democratically elected their government. The US Gov didn't like the election results and promptly said so in public.

So to me the USA has little credibility whenever they talk about what government the Iranians (or others) should have, and what the Iranians actually want. The USA has been overthrowing democracies for a long time.
Re:Anything to make money. by donscarletti · 2012-03-25 21:17 · Score: 2

The Chinese never claimed to be the good guys
Really? I could have swarn I heard something about the Chinese being the good guys on China Central Television last night. I think one of the key points of the Chinese position is that the government and party is responsible for all harmony, peace, flowers and puppies that exist on this planet.

--
When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
Re:Anything to make money. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-25 21:34 · Score: 1

That's only to their own citizens - most politicians and leaders do that shit. You're just lucky they don't do similar things in your country.

They don't come to my country and tell us they're great and we should things the way they like.
Re:Anything to make money. by mikael · 2012-03-25 22:26 · Score: 3

You don't really notice that while you are in a country like the UK. But as soon as you move to a neighbouring country in Europe, you suddenly find that all the big issues (like "austerity measures", "the war on terror" are non-issues). Almost as if they were deliberately the state of siege.

--
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
Re:Anything to make money. by El+Torico · 2012-03-25 23:53 · Score: 1

So when the US does it, they are the epitome of evil and tyranny, but when China does it, they're just trying to make a living? Fuck you and your double standard.

--
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is usually crucified.
Re:Anything to make money. by khallow · 2012-03-26 00:52 · Score: 1

The Chinese never claimed to be the good guys, nor do they go around telling others how to run their countries.
So it's better to be a authoritarian government run by thugs, such as China, than a mildly hypocritical democracy like the US? I don't buy it.

Not long ago the Palestinians democratically elected their government. The US Gov didn't like the election results and promptly said so in public.
I didn't like the results either. And my dislike has long since been justified.

So to me the USA has little credibility whenever they talk about what government the Iranians (or others) should have, and what the Iranians actually want. The USA has been overthrowing democracies for a long time.
In the case of Iran's early government, the pre-Shah government was a thief. As I see it, if you don't want your democracy overthrown by other democracies, then respect the rule of law and don't steal other peoples' property.
Re:Anything to make money. by miletus · 2012-03-26 01:07 · Score: 5, Insightful

How dare the Iranian gov't of the 1950s try and nationalize the oil under their land that rightfully belonged to British Petroleum! Those evil people weren't respecting the rule of law, the same way Chinese people refused to respect the British right to sell them opium!
Furthermore, we all know the great democracies of the USA and Britain never stole any land or resources from any other people (remember how the Cherokee left Georgia because they new the African slave volunteers needed a new home?), which of course grants them the right to intervene in other, inferior democracies.
Thank god we have people like you to clarify our rights.
Re:Anything to make money. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-26 02:37 · Score: 0

Do you suppose that Echelon has seen some upgrades? Given it's age, and if it has not been upgraded, also given the exponential growth of the net, it must be quite a joke by now. I mean, does it have a couple p4's running it? They must really be sweating. lol
Re:Anything to make money. by tnk1 · 2012-03-26 02:57 · Score: 1

That's only to their own citizens - most politicians and leaders do that shit. You're just lucky they don't do similar things in your country.
They don't come to my country and tell us they're great and we should things the way they like.
That is because if they did come to a Western country and say that crap, they'd be laughed out of the room. For good reason.
China, as a country is doing better, but as socialist utopias go, it makes the robber barons of the Industrial Age look like rank amateurs.
Re:Anything to make money. by ultranova · 2012-03-26 05:26 · Score: 1

China, as a country is doing better, but as socialist utopias go, it makes the robber barons of the Industrial Age look like rank amateurs.

But not to worry, our modern robber barons looting the entire world economy showed that we're still the unbeaten champions.

--
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
Re:Anything to make money. by LifesABeach · 2012-03-26 07:30 · Score: 1

I think that if one were to review public documents, that one would find many transactions between the U.S. and Iran. After the fall of the Shaw.

The one thing I find ironic is that the Iran Stuxnet Event has been claimed by no one. Who stands to gain from this?
Re:Anything to make money. by LifesABeach · 2012-03-26 07:38 · Score: 1

Funny, I've always thought of those Modern Robber Barons as an Economic Pleage of Locus.

I think Ireland, and Portugal use different words, none of them repeatable by SIRI.
Re:Anything to make money. by LifesABeach · 2012-03-26 07:45 · Score: 1

Think about it, you've just commented on an AC's fully clothed reality defication.
Re:Anything to make money. by shutdown+-p+now · 2012-03-26 08:55 · Score: 1

In the case of Iran's early government, the pre-Shah government was a thief. As I see it, if you don't want your democracy overthrown by other democracies, then respect the rule of law and don't steal other peoples' property.
The rule of law in any given country is defined what the legitimate government of the country enacts as a law. If you have a problem with that, you should stay away from those countries which have (or may get) laws that are not to your liking.
Unless, of course, by "rule of law" you mean "rule of American law". In which case the rest of the world will rightly tell you to GTFO.
Re:Anything to make money. by khallow · 2012-03-26 11:08 · Score: 1

How dare the Iranian gov't of the 1950s try and nationalize the oil under their land that rightfully belonged to British Petroleum!

I don't see that daring was a prerequisite. Stupidity sure, but not daring.

Furthermore, we all know the great democracies of the USA and Britain never stole any land or resources from any other people (remember how the Cherokee left Georgia because they new the African slave volunteers needed a new home?), which of course grants them the right to intervene in other, inferior democracies.

And the US survived attempts by other countries to meddle in its affairs. Some governments can take the heat and some buckle like a soggy noodle. It's worth noting that the current Iranian government isn't a delicate one like that long ago democracy.

Thank god we have people like you to clarify our rights.

Let me clarify a right for you. You get the right to consequences when you fuck with a bigger power's stuff.
Re:Anything to make money. by khallow · 2012-03-26 11:54 · Score: 1

If you have a problem with that, you should stay away from those countries which have (or may get) laws that are not to your liking.
Rest assured, I do.

Unless, of course, by "rule of law" you mean "rule of American law". In which case the rest of the world will rightly tell you to GTFO.
Don't worry. I'm not pushing a particular flavor of law here, but a bare minimum that every society should have. "Rule of law" means that all parts of society follow well-known rules. This is never perfectly observed and laws can be hypocritical. But the less an element of society follows laws, the more trouble it can cause for everyone else.

An occasional viewpoint that one sees here is the idea that property is theft. Almost every morsel of land has been at times in the past acquired by means that we would now consider both highly illegal and unethical. Similarly, every physical resource has come from such property. So in a similar sense to that excuse which the old Iranian democracy used, every scrap of physical asset on the planet can be considered illegitimate.

Since Iran recognized private property at the time, they could have recognized the Anglo-Persian Oil Company's claim to the oil fields, no matter how the claim was gained, and to treat it equally before the law as any other property holder. They chose not to honor that and paid with the overthrow of their government.
Re:Anything to make money. by shutdown+-p+now · 2012-03-26 12:59 · Score: 1

Property is not theft, of course. But it is, at least on a scale that big, purely a construct of the state - you can only "own" an oil field in a sense that there is a title in your name, and the state pledges its protection of said title with the monopoly on violence that it has. To that extent, the state can refuse to recognize the right to own certain things, and many countries in particular refuse to recognize private property to things they consider to be inherently public property, profits from which should serve the society as a whole, rather than some private entity - for example, land or natural resources. When rule of law is in effect - as was the case here - this is then reflected in laws, which are implemented.
So, I still don't see your point. The legitimate government of Iran has duly enacted laws that rescinded the recognition of private property on the oil fields. That law was implemented. Now you say that they should be punished for it? Why is the preceding government, that enacted laws that granted the concessions which passed the oil fields into private property mere 20 years ago, any better? Why do you treat that as "rule of law"? It seems to be that the only difference here is which side benefited from the law in question.
It seems that you assume that there's some intrinsic, universal right to private property on anything and everything that applies everywhere, and which governments can only refuse to recognize (and then "suffer the consequences") - only then your logic makes any sense.
Re:Anything to make money. by khallow · 2012-03-26 14:04 · Score: 1

The legitimate government of Iran has duly enacted laws that rescinded the recognition of private property on the oil fields.

Hence, why I called it theft. Rescinding ownership boils down to that.

It seems that you assume that there's some intrinsic, universal right to private property on anything and everything that applies everywhere, and which governments can only refuse to recognize (and then "suffer the consequences") - only then your logic makes any sense.
Well, obviously the right to own property doesn't exist in a literal sense, But governments do suffer consequences when they create public goods which aren't owned by anyone (or owned by "everyone" which amounts to the same thing). Tragedy of the commons is the usual problem. In the case of Iran, they also created a situation where it was more profitable to knock over the government than to continue to play ball.

Israel by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-25 18:31 · Score: 0

You cant and wont win.

Only China and Iran? Business as usual. by PolygamousRanchKid+ · 2012-03-25 18:33 · Score: 4, Informative

A XXX telecommunications equipment company has sold YYY's largest telecom firm a powerful surveillance system capable of monitoring landline, mobile and internet communications, interviews and contract documents show.

These days, it's surveillance systems, all the way down.

Everywhere.

--
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!

Robot2 by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-25 18:41 · Score: 0

Scully and Mulder are right, it's all a conspiracy.
Idiots who read this message will self-destruct in 5 seconds.
5 ..... 4 .... 3 .... 2 .... 1 .... happy year 2030

Re:Only China and Iran? Business as usual. by starfishsystems · 2012-03-25 18:47 · Score: 5, Informative

These days, it's surveillance systems, all the way down.

Too true. If you want to make network gear for the US market, for example, it must be capable of packet intercept per CALEA.

--
Parity: What to do when the weekend comes.

I chuckled by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-25 18:57 · Score: 1

...Supreme Council of Cyberspace...it would protect 'against internet evils...

It's fun because it's so grand and futile :-D

Why do I always think of dystopian futures? by GoodNewsJimDotCom · 2012-03-25 19:05 · Score: 2, Interesting

In my mind I have an idea for someone's dystopian novel where a weak president comes into office of the USA. Then Iran finds a US citizen defaming something. Then the USA president extradites the citizen over. I guess it is bad enough they put a fatwa on a comedian. And police are fighting against peaceful protestors in the USA. Maybe I keep thinking of dystopian futures because it seems like things keep heading that way.

--
God spoke to me

Re:Why do I always think of dystopian futures? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-25 20:47 · Score: 1

With the Patriot Act, NDAA, warrantless spying etc - the US is in a dystopian present.
Re:Why do I always think of dystopian futures? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-25 20:51 · Score: 3, Insightful

Some bad things are going to happen in Iran in the next couple of years. The worst: Israel goes in and bombs the shit out of them and starts a regional war. Best: Persian Spring (or Summer, Fall, or Winter)
The dystopian future I see is the US turning into a Christian Theocracy. And as what all religions do when they become political, they'll turn this country into an oppressive and backward shit hole.
Re:Why do I always think of dystopian futures? by shutdown+-p+now · 2012-03-26 08:59 · Score: 1

Best: Persian Spring (or Summer, Fall, or Winter)
Given that Arab Spring has, so far, been quite successful at removing moderately secular dictators and replacing them with moderately-to-extremely Islamist democracies, why do you think that a post-"Persian Spring" Iran will be any less hot-headed than the current theocracy? If anything, they might actually blame the mullahs for talking too much and not acting enough on it, and start openly intervening in nearby countries. Or, say, do a couple pogroms on the (remaining) Iranian Jews, which would prompt Israel to intervene.

Off the top of my head? by Sycraft-fu · 2012-03-25 19:35 · Score: 5, Interesting

Intel, AMD, Texas Instruments, Motorola, Analog Devices, Xilinx, Altera, IBM, nVidia, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Ratheon, General Dynamics, Microsoft, Google, Oracle, and Apple.

There's more, those are just the ones that readily come to mind. By extension this means every desktop processor, and nearly every computer processor period (Hitachi and ARM being the two exceptions), every FPGA, much of the world's small signal electronics (opamps, DACs, etc), one of three major airplane manufacturers, most of the world operating systems, and so on.

Sorry, but I get a little sick of this snark of "The US has no industry!" In fact the US has a massive amount of industrial. It's industrial output is second only to China, and then only recently. More, in terms of high tech the US has it in spades. Take Intel as an example. Far and away the processor found in most computers in the world, desktop and server. US headquartered, and massive US production facilities (of their 10 fabs 7 are in the US including the newest, 1 is in Ireland, 1 is Israel, and 1 in China). The only company in the world with a working 22nm node process online right now (everyone else is 32nm node or 28nm half node). None of this meantions their other areas (networking, storage, satellite, etc). Ya, just slightly high tech, slightly huge.

The US produces a LOT of things. If you don't know what the failing is yours, not the US's.

Re:Off the top of my head? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-25 19:57 · Score: 0

Ok, now that you are happy go and sleep comfortably for the next 50 years. Don't be surprised when you get up :)
Re:Off the top of my head? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-26 01:27 · Score: 0

TSMC has working 22mm. well sort of. yield is pretty bad.
Re:Off the top of my head? by tnk1 · 2012-03-26 03:04 · Score: 1

Actually, the US is still #1 in manufacturing. Which actually buttresses your point.
Still, let's not be complacent, China definitely can take the #1 spot, but we shouldn't just give up yet. Sometimes, I wonder if loss of leadership is not due to lesser capacities or resources, but people convinced that today is not as good as the good old days.

Embarrassing by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-25 19:44 · Score: 1

I wonder if the Iranians are as embarrassed by their government as we are in the US?

Re:Embarrassing by SuricouRaven · 2012-03-25 22:27 · Score: 1

I'm sure they are sensible enough not to say so in public. Or in private, when someone might be listening in.
Re:Embarrassing by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-25 23:08 · Score: 0

It depends...
(i am not iranian but i know iran by first hand a little bit)
Most of them hate their government (but, on average, they hate the priests muh more) like we do in western countries. I think that's inseparable from republic. But at the same time a lot of people like the bold approach Akhmadinejad has toward foreign politics, because that, to them, shows Iran is powerful. Remember before being an islamic republic Iran was ruled by the Shah, which where universally recognized as puppets of UK and widely hated by the most because of that.
No, they are not embarassed by their government. They either hate it or have pity for the people in it (being a toy of the ayatollah).
Re:Embarrassing by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-25 23:26 · Score: 0

Well, believe me, it's impossible to walk in Iran and not meet somebody who is eager to tell you how much he or she hates the priests or the government. They might not be up to date on what goes on in the world, but it's no North Korea or old-time Russia.

probably overrated by Max_W · 2012-03-25 20:18 · Score: 3, Insightful

If governments can produce such powerful systems, as they claim, why cannot they do something as simple as stopping spam, which, by the way, really hurts economies.

My guess is that these systems suffer from the usual contracts' weaknesses: kickbacks, wow-presentations, bugs, etc.

Re:probably overrated by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-25 21:23 · Score: 0

spam, which, by the way, really hurts economies.
I wonder how exactly. And how much. I almost don't get spam mails anymore. I'm sure processing power is used to block spam, but I kind of doubt this has a huge impact on economies.
Re:probably overrated by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · 2012-03-25 22:38 · Score: 1

If governments can produce such powerful systems, as they claim, why cannot they do something as simple as stopping spam, which, by the way, really hurts economies. My guess is that these systems suffer from the usual contracts' weaknesses: kickbacks, wow-presentations, bugs, etc.
It is almost certainly the case that the vendors are exaggerating at best, lying at worst; but there is one crucial difference:

Anti-spam, for the vast majority of us, is purely defensive. Spammers send X million messages, I receive zero points for each one I block, -1 points for each one that gets through.
Anti-dissident surveillance systems are both offensive and defensive, when considered as part of the system they work with: Parts are basically anti-spam(eg. China's "Something bad happened near Foo, start blocking messages with 'foo' in them to keep the news from spreading too quickly"); but the real meat is offensive: catching your malcontents and then sending in the goons.

The defensive case simply isn't winnable. We've gotten pretty good, algorithmic spam filters do eat most of the chaff before humans see it(if not before networks carry it); but the jurisdictional issues generally mean that the only hope is the longterm "maybe we can block enough to make spamming uneconomic", which doesn't seem to have panned out.
The offensive case, on the other hand, is winnable: the whole point is identifying people within your jurisdiction and then silencing them by other means. You can miss 99% of what they do, as long as you catch enough incriminating intercepts to justify disappearing some people.
Re:probably overrated by Nyder · 2012-03-26 02:09 · Score: 1

If governments can produce such powerful systems, as they claim, why cannot they do something as simple as stopping spam, which, by the way, really hurts economies.
My guess is that these systems suffer from the usual contracts' weaknesses: kickbacks, wow-presentations, bugs, etc.
How exactly does spam hurt the economies?
First some history: Junk mail, you like it? you probably get a lot of it. I do. Funny thing about junk mail, is that it has a cost. yet that doesn't stop us from getting a ton of it. Spam? Doesn't cost very much to send, thus we get a shitload of it.
Okay, back to today. That spam has made jobs for programmers and IT. yep, it gives people job security. Much like the paper junk mail gives printers, and paper makers and ink makers and the fracking post office jobs.

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Be seeing you...

just goes to show you by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-25 20:33 · Score: 0

fascist is as fascist does.

Who talks like that? by firefrei · 2012-03-25 20:40 · Score: 1

who said it would protect 'against internet evils,'

Seriously, who talks like that? Internet 'evils'? Ohhhhh! I've noticed the rhetoric from Iran, North Korea and other reclusive countries consistently sounds like it was made up by some hammy Z-grade Hollywood writer, rather than written by someone who wants to be, you know, taken seriously by the world.

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I remember when Linux was good... too...

Re:Who talks like that? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-25 20:58 · Score: 0

Seriously, who talks like that?
Seriously, what do you expect from 15th century radical Islamist throwbacks?
Re:Who talks like that? by SuricouRaven · 2012-03-25 22:29 · Score: 1

Not them. I doubt they wrote it in English, you're reading a translation. It's possible they used a more specific term, and 'evils' is just an approximation.
Re:Who talks like that? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · 2012-03-25 22:41 · Score: 2

Have you listened to anything a state Attorney General with his eye on re-election(or better things) says about the internet when some 'cyber-bullying' case is in the media or somebody is shocked, shocked to discover that there may be prostitution on craigslist?

Never mind, of course, the actual fundamentalist dingbats, not just the cynical politicians.

3GPP standard by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-25 20:54 · Score: 2, Insightful

I do not know about landlines, but regarding mobile, this technology is part of the 3GPP standard, and all operators in the free world have this equipment installed as well.

Think of the children .... by Chrisq · 2012-03-25 20:56 · Score: 3, Insightful

Without this monitoring Iranian children could be reading all sorts of evil perverted stuff on the internet. The Bible, the United nations declaration of human rights, or even the Bhagavad Gita.

If I lived there... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-25 21:42 · Score: 1, Interesting

On the one hand I am all for human rights and all as the next guy, but what I don't understand is *why* would you use the phone or internet to criticize the government in a place where you know they are monitoring it, and doing so can get you thrown in jail?

I mean I know lots of clueless Americans who think "China = Communist = Orwell = bad". Yes everyone is being watched by Chairman Mao 24 hours per day, and every right is being suppressed. Sure. On the other hand, I have actually been to China, and I know people who live there (and people in Japan and the US who used to live there). Guess what? The government may do unfair things, and may be worse than the US (and other) governments in some areas - but there are reasons for it. For example, they have a huge population to monitor.

Most amazingly, all of this "China does this, China does that", hardly affects normal people. Do you know why? because normal people don't do online and post shit like "Down with Chairman Mao", "screw the communist party!", or search Google for Tienemman (sp?) square, etc. It's known that criticizing the government isn't allowed and can get you in trouble, and most people don't have an interest in getting themselves in trouble, so they don't even try to do those things. If they did, and it didn't work, most of them give up.

I'm not saying people shouldn't be able to speak out against the government, etc. I personally think they should, but unfortunately that's not my decision to make in China or Iran. If you're one of the people living there, you'll be much happier if you shut up about the things you can't change instead of inciting the wrath of a corrupt government. Things are changing because of economics anyway, it's only a matter of time.

Now, while most people may have little interest in politics or banned religions, where people do have motivation to circumvent the great firewall is for things like FaceBook, Google Chat, etc.

Re:If I lived there... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · 2012-03-25 22:43 · Score: 4, Insightful

Anonymous Coward is an unusually apt username today...
Re:If I lived there... by El+Torico · 2012-03-26 00:14 · Score: 3, Insightful

So, what your saying is that a site like Slashdot would result in a lot of people in trouble with the government? It's common for people to very extremely critical or their governments on this site. Then there is a difference between the West and China.
I'm sure people who kept their mouths shut were happier in Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union too.

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In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is usually crucified.

It's not just China by chrb · 2012-03-25 21:50 · Score: 3, Informative

http://yro.slashdot.org/story/11/11/04/1626247/iranian-police-tracking-dissidents-using-tech-from-western-companies Western companies have also sold domestic surveillance tech to Iran.

uhm the shah fell in 1979 by decora · 2012-03-25 23:37 · Score: 1

we kept selling weapons to iran. it was called 'the iran contra affair'.

except for tibet, taiwan, korea, vietnam by decora · 2012-03-25 23:41 · Score: 3, Insightful

the uighurs, and a few other minor exceptions, yeah. the chinese communist party doesn't tell anyone what to do.

some people will complain, especially americans, who keep brining up this old 'korean war' thing, where chinese troops were killing UN troops who were trying to drive out a horrible dictator who murdered hundreds of thousands of people. but hey. there are whiners in every bunch.

Re:except for tibet, taiwan, korea, vietnam by fast+turtle · 2012-03-26 04:18 · Score: 1

and the Korean war hasn't ended. It's just in a state of "Cease Fire", thus can be restarted with a very simple declaration by the United States w/o congressional approval as the declaration of war was issued by Congress and has never been revoked.

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Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown

dont forget starbucks by decora · 2012-03-25 23:43 · Score: 1

Intel, AMD, Texas Instruments, Motorola, Analog Devices, Xilinx, Altera, IBM, nVidia, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Ratheon, General Dynamics, Microsoft, Google, Oracle, and Apple.

don't forget starbucks, wal-mart, target, kfc, pizza hut, and other wonderful american industrial behemoths that employ most of the workers in the economy.

Re:dont forget starbucks by El+Torico · 2012-03-25 23:57 · Score: 3, Funny

The first set of employers is for Engineering Majors; the second set is for Liberal Arts Majors. Flame away Baristas, I have the karma to withstand it.

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In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is usually crucified.
Re:dont forget starbucks by Sycraft-fu · 2012-03-26 11:53 · Score: 1

Yes, how dare America do anything except extremely high skill, high knowledge labour! How dare there be employment for people who's intelligence is at or below average! How dare Americans worry about feeding themselves, getting the good the high tech companies produce, and so on!
Get off it.

Umzug Wien by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-26 00:39 · Score: 0

http://www.luxusumzug.at/umzug-wien-umziehen.html

Irony Alert ... by microphage · 2012-03-26 01:07 · Score: 3, Informative

Warrantless snooping on the Internet

Whistle-Blower Outs NSA Spy Room

Iran has to do this by walterbyrd · 2012-03-26 01:13 · Score: 2

How else could they find, and execute (by painful suspension hanging) people for such crimes as: witchcraft, apostacy, homosexuality, blasphemy, and crimes against chastity?

What could we expect from a country where woman are being stoned to death for adultury?

WTF. Don't they know only western nations.. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-26 07:45 · Score: 0

are allowed to spy on their citizens?

what would carl sagan say? by decora · 2012-03-26 11:08 · Score: 1

you realize that at least half of 'cosmos' would be impossible without liberal arts, like history, philosophy, languages, anthropology, etc?

you basically just called starbucks workers dumb by decora · 2012-03-26 14:32 · Score: 1

hint; 1. they arent. some of them might have degrees higher than yours.

go to an apple store. ask how many EEs are working there.

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Chinese Firm Helps Iran Spy On Citizens

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