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GAO Sting Finds More Fake Military Parts From China

Nidi62 writes "The Government Accountability Office, through a fictitious company, recently requisitioned parts from China in order to determine if the Chinese government was living up to its promises of battling counterfeit parts. The report from the GAO found that '334 of 396 vendors who offered to sell parts to the fictitious company were from China' and that 'all 16 parts eventually purchased by the fake company came from 13 China-based vendors and all were determined by an independent testing laboratory to be counterfeit.' The parts requested were supposedly for use in F-15s, MV-22 Ospreys, and nuclear submarines, and were requested as new parts. The report (PDF) also says that in the past three years, over one million counterfeit parts came from Chinese companies. This stands in sharp contrast to the Chinese government's promise to clamp down on the production of counterfeit parts in China."

29 of 180 comments (clear)

  1. ... and nobody is surprised. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    China looks out for China, nobody else.

    1. Re:... and nobody is surprised. by Fluffeh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      China looks out for China, nobody else.

      Yes, but the recent few weeks seems to be US looking out for US - by trumpeting an ever-growing tirade against China across a number of political fields - manufacture, technology (hacking) and a bunch of others. The last time the US seemed to do this with such fervor, they invaded Iraq a few months later. The time before that, it built up to the war in Afghanistan. I typically don't worry too much about the US bitching about this or that, but when it reaches a critical level, bad things seem to happen in quick succession - and that makes me worried.

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    2. Re:... and nobody is surprised. by khallow · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's an election year. Politicians are currently looking for issues with legs, um, that "resonate with the voter". A good hate for China might help certain congresscritters with their primaries or a certain someone to look presidential.

    3. Re:... and nobody is surprised. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's an election year. Politicians are currently looking for issues with legs, um, that "resonate with the voter". A good hate for China might help certain congresscritters with their primaries or a certain someone to look presidential.

      Spot on. Playing with foreign threats (real or not) is a great way to gain local support. Everyone does their part to fight the common enemy. With the enemy defeated, a new enemy is fabricated and the cycle repeats. Without this kind of trick controlling a democracy would be way more expensive, but it'd also be far more interesting.

    4. Re:... and nobody is surprised. by hairyfeet · · Score: 2

      No way we'd go that far with China, our corporate masters are too addicted to the massive profits they get by dumping their toxic waste out the back doors of their plants in China and the people are too addicted to CCC, aka Cheapo Chinese Crap.

      I'd say the bigger question is WHAT THE FUCK are they doing with plans for our planes detailed enough they can crank out knockoff parts? Have we REALLY gotten as bad as Huckabee said and our military can't run without CCC either? I mean if we are just gonna have parts cranked out by potential enemies we might as well say fuck it and offer a first come first serve arms deal to anybody with cash. this is just sad man, we can't even keep our shit together enough to keep any hack with a Chinese plant from cranking out F15 parts, that's fucking pathetic, just pathetic.

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  2. Not sourced in the US? by JoeCommodore · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I thought there was security issues from buying parts in countries we don't particularly trust.

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    1. Re:Not sourced in the US? by Ihmhi · · Score: 2

      The one thing we really shouldn't outsource is this kind of stuff. Making it in our own country wouldn't make it invulnerable from bad stuff being put in during the manufacturing process but it would greatly, greatly reduce the chances of anything bad happening.

    2. Re:Not sourced in the US? by Barbara,+not+Barbie · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In a new development to this story, a new series of tests run after acquiring new testing equipment (from China) and new software (from China) determined that the parts previously identified as counterfeit were in fact genuine.

      Scared yet? You should be.

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    3. Re:Not sourced in the US? by rtfa-troll · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The whole point of this is that even when they are trying not to outsource, but when they attempt to buy "made in USA" parts it turns out that lots of stuff being sold to them is actually sourced indirectly from China and made to look like the US parts. Looking at the parts they are examining it's pretty interesting. For example, bit that protect against anti-static discharge; presumably ones where long term stability is critical and breakdowns like the capacitor plague would be a complete pain.

      This is pretty difficult because, in the end, nobody can keep all the parts in stock. You have to go to a shop. The shop has to go to a supplier and so on. At any point in that chain there are people who have a good motive to swap out the good component (which can be sold on at US prices or used to make reliable equipment) for a fake component which costs much less.

      The free market selects exactly for components which work for some time but fail shortly after the testing period or guarantee period. I'd be interested to see what the effect of European two year guarantees is on the level of fake components in distribution. Probably not enough; you really need at least five years and a government testing lab willing to prove that inadequate components were used to even have a chance of pushing back against this.

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    4. Re:Not sourced in the US? by Ihmhi · · Score: 5, Interesting

      This is pretty difficult because, in the end, nobody can keep all the parts in stock.

      No, that's horseshit.

      Look, for all the money we spend on defense we can afford to have secure warehouses of all the stuff we need.

      Look at the A-10 Thunderbolt. That airframe is a precise weapon of destruction. It has served faithfully for years and it's tough as all hell. The A-10 is a marvel of engineering in every way.

      It's also impossible to build new ones. Why? Because the supply chain doesn't exist anymore. The plans are gone. It'd be like trying to build a brand new shuttle - it just isn't feasible. You'd have to reverse-engineer an existing one.

      This is, frankly, idiotic. It's rare to have created a machine so perfect. The A-10 is going to be in service at least through to 2028. That's a testament to its staying power, and it's sad that we're not going to see any new ones created.

    5. Re:Not sourced in the US? by wierd_w · · Score: 5, Informative

      I work in aerospace. Ironically, in quality.

      The problem is likely to be counterfiet material (stock material sold as 2025, or 7075, but is really some gods awful alloy of who knows what, but you would never know the difference because it weighs the same, mills the same, and looks the same...... until you do a hardness test, a conductivity test, and a vapor assa test.)

      Other things likely counterfieted:

      Bolts. Nuts. Nutplates. Washers. Rivets. Paint. Adhesives.

      We literally order NAS and BACD nutplates and rivets by lots of 1 million. We go through those things like diabetic children dig through candy. It would be *really* easy for our suppliers to slip us a mickey, and sell us bogus nutplates. Those things have specifications they have to meet, concerning their material composition, degree of heat treat, size, and overal dimensions, including weight, and finish. Once cooked up though, are you *really* going to check each and every nutplate in a bin of 1 million to look for counterfeits?

      That's the problem. Counterfeit rivets and nutplates throw a monkey wrench in a product's expected lifecycle. Shitty rivets crack out. They corrode. They induce the rest of the assembly to corrode. They respond incorrectly to changing pressure... on and on and on.

      Similar with bad adhesives and finishes.

      What, are you going to expect every plant in america to do wet chemistry testing on all their paints, primers, and sealants? In addition to vapor testing each and every rivet and nutplate?

      Can't be done. Airplanes would cost billions of dollars each.

      The US govt wants to crack down on it? Here's an idea: customs can do its fucking job, and search cargo containers from china for counterfiet goods.

      That way the cheap chinese knockoffs don't get mixed into fungible supply bins, and we don't have this problem.

    6. Re:Not sourced in the US? by neyla · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You don't have to. To the contrary, checking becomes *easier* when you order a larger quantity of an item.

      If you've received a million nutplates, pick 100 of them randomly, and check them thoroughly. Reject the entire shipment if any of those 100 are counterfeit.

      If more than 1% of the nutplates are fake, you'd be likely to detect it, and if more than 10% of the plates are fakes, you'd be virtually guaranteed to detect it. Thus when all 100 check out as genuine, it's unlikely that there's more than a few percent fakes, tops.

      At that point, it's probably not worth it to the supplier to fake the delivery. Yes they can put in 1% fakes and 99% reals, and hope that it's not detected (their odds of this are about even).

      But having 50:50 odds of getting away with 1% fraud while 50% of the time your entire shipment is rejected, just isn't profitable.

      In contrast, it's hard to do reasonable checking when you order a *low* count of some part, say 3.

      Statistical sampling *works*. You really -can- test the quality of a million-gallon-delivery of whatever by picking a few random samples, and test those.

    7. Re:Not sourced in the US? by Richard_at_work · · Score: 2, Informative

      You are abit off on the A-10, as both the toolings and he detailed plans are in longterm storage - the DoD retains the ability to restart production at any time, it just needs funding. It's actually a rarity for military aircraft toolings and plans to be destroyed, most of the time they are stored for later use.

      With the F-22 shutdown, Lockheed spent millions of dollars on video documenting every aspect of production, with the line workers detailing what they do and how they doit, so production can be picked up with a lower learning curve.

    8. Re:Not sourced in the US? by Fred+Ferrigno · · Score: 2

      If you're sourcing millions of units for vital military assets, then it's only prudent to think carefully about it.

  3. The government can blame itself. by pecosdave · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The federal government of the United States should not blame China for this, it's called being Shanghaied for a reason, and it's not a new term.

    The reason the market is ripe for these sorts of problems is the governments own fault. There used to be lots of chipmakers in the United States. It costs to much to do business in the United States. Businesses have gotten in bed with the government and bought their own representatives and more important industry regulators to control the market to benefit the biggest players. When the biggest players can no longer afford to do business here they pick up and leave the country but the regulations they paid for remain.

    Mix that with an unfavorable tax economy, actual government incentives to send business overseas (still haven't figured that one out), and punishment via tax brackets for people who attempt to move up in class and of course the market is ripe for China to supply fake chips. We ran all the good businesses out of the country, just how many lobbyist DOES China have?

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    1. Re:The government can blame itself. by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You started out right, then you ended very wrong. Tax policy in this country didn't start being a problem until we decided to go Free Market; translation, forcing US companies to compete with Chinese companies that don't give a shit about human rights, worker rights, or environmental rights. It's impossible for US companies to be competitive with a company that can dump its waste behind the factory, work its employees like slaves, and treat its citizens like government property.

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    2. Re:The government can blame itself. by pecosdave · · Score: 2

      There's another thing I question.

      If the "real" chips were outsourced to China to begin with, then China kept producing the chips in the same factory by the same people, even after the original orders were fulfilled, are they really "counterfeit" or just "chips without the royalties"?

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    3. Re:The government can blame itself. by FairAndHateful · · Score: 2

      There used to be lots of chipmakers in the United States.

      Used to? (That's AMD's spin off).

      It appears the US is still a major player in the CPU market. China's current huge advantage isn't the ability to make top-end chips. Its advantage is in rock bottom assembly prices, combined with the flexibility to make almost overnight changes to manufacturing processes. That flexibility is partly due to their reliance on cheap human labor that might even be on call 24 hours a day. If you try to change a process in a mechanized/automated plant, it takes time and very possibly some retooling. To change a process in a factory relying on cheap labor, it takes a few hours of classroom time and a trainer.

      That said, the US has some major manufacturing problems. The US is no longer capable of making what they used to make. It seems that some expertise is gained/maintained by being close to or involved in the end process, and if you rely on other people to do it all, you lose the ability. I'm not wading into the rest very deeply, but I will admit that there are a lot of reasons that it costs more to manufacture things in the US that don't involve labor costs or the environment.

    4. Re:The government can blame itself. by WindBourne · · Score: 2

      And yet, Offshore companies say that the taxes and regulations are NOT issues here. In fact, as is regularly pointed out, taxes are higher in Germany, and regulations are much tougher through most of the west. In fact, they like not having to bribe or not being sued later for obeying the regs. Even the unions are a non-issue. So, that tired argument just does not make it.

      We have 2 issues. The first is that our LEGAL system is now a nightmare. We sue on a dime. We stop new factories for just about anything.
      Then our own companies do not manufacture here because in general, the CEO's own large amounts of stock and want to run it up in price, sell it, and get out of the job. We can thank reagan for that one.

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  4. Lenin was wrong. by bluemonq · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Turns out, the capitalists won't be selling the rope with which they'll be hanged. They'll be paying for it themselves.

  5. counterfit? by bigdavex · · Score: 3, Insightful

    These aren't expensive handbags. What does counterfeit mean? Do the parts meet the specifications?
     

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    1. Re:counterfit? by Sqr(twg) · · Score: 3, Informative

      Counterfeit, in this context, usually means made with inferior materials that wear out faster.

    2. Re:counterfit? by Suddenly_Dead · · Score: 5, Informative

      They're parts being sold with fake product numbers and manufacturing dates to make it look like they came from an original parts manufacturer. Some of them probably don't meet specifications, and the danger is that you can't tell without testing them because they're misrepresenting themselves as being from a reputable source. That's definitely no good when these parts are being installed in aircraft and weapons.

      As another example of potentially dangerous counterfeits, there's counterfeit climbing gear floating around out there that apparently fails at forces far lower than it's claimed to be rated for.

  6. in my brief govt job by decora · · Score: 2

    i wore a uniform made in mexico, sat on furniture produced by inmates at federal prisons, and drove around in a truck fueled by oil from god knows where.

    none of the people who built this stuff had 'freedom' by any modern definition of the word.

  7. Whats the different between by AHuxley · · Score: 2

    an Iranian Tomcat and a modern US military system?
    Iran knows where its jets came from.

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  8. Re:Couldn't this just be assumed? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 3, Informative

    They did not order anything from China. They ordered it from American companies which were supposed to have them manufactured locally, but instead they've got Chinese-made parts.

  9. Re:Couldn't this just be assumed? by tftp · · Score: 2

    If the government is going to spend hard earned tax dollars, they might as well buy from American companies who operate factories in America.

    Most of gate-level logic and other silicon is made in Asia on their fabs, even if nominally the design is owned by TI or Fairchild or IDT.

    Another problem is that the government is legally required to announce when it wants to buy something, and then it has to pick the vendor who offers a compliant part for the lowest price. In this "compliant" means "they say it's compliant." Reliability of many silicon devices is not measured directly (try to measure MTBF of a 2NAND gate) - it is either calculated, or estimated, or measured in accelerated aging conditions.

    A good deal of products (electronic or not) are not even made by US companies, in the US or outside. Many electronic components that I use every day are made by Japanese owned companies, for example. Some big names always were Japanese - Seiko, MuRata, Citizen, TDK, Panasonic, Rohm.

  10. Re:Hell yeah by flyneye · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I agree, we know China to be bigger liars than a fleet of Nigerian spammers, yet we somehow feel compelled to continue to do ANY business with them.
    Just think without China we would be forced to find plastic products elsewhere, Walmart would just die.( O.K. lost a bunch of congress and senate on that one)
    We'd have to fire up our old rare earth mine and focus some money on it. ( lost a few more) We'd quit selling chunks of the U.S. to China.( Wow, emptied out half the room) Probably have to consider Iraq and Afghanistan conquered and turn them over to China as payment on loans, but who could really care, there's more oil in the world. Let the mideast sweat having China accumulating territory at their borders while looking hungry for more ( Omama left and the crickets can be heard) See ,liars attract their own kind like flies to shit.
              Yeah, fuck China, let's see how well they do without us, that will put the world on more equal footing everywhere.

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  11. Re:Hell yeah by craigminah · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "The Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them." - Vladimir Ilyich Lenin