Slashdot Mirror


Why Onagawa Nuclear Power Station Survived the Tsunami

Kyusaku Natsume writes "While the town of Onagawa, Miyagi Prefecture, was hit hard by the March 2011 tsunami, the nuclear plant it shares with the equally devastated city of Ishinomaki survived. The reason it did so is mostly down to the personal strength and tenacity of one Yanosuke Hirai, who passed away in 1986 and insisted that the plant should have been protected by a 14.8 m tall seawall. A great quote from the article: 'Corporate ethics and compliance may be similar, but their cores are different, from the perspective of corporate social responsibility, we cannot say that there is no need to question a company's actions just because they are not a crime under the law.'"

148 comments

  1. Help needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Dear Slashdot,

    In an hope of developing an hardware that comes as fully open source and with an help file arranged in an hierarchy like a tree I am providing this information. The help file will contain all information regarding the project. It is important to me as I would like to buy an house with the profits. It would be a honor if you can spend a hour or less looking this message over and thinking about it.

    The desire is to build an helicopter, but not just any helicopter, an helicopter that is open source! It might sound like an hopeless pipedream but I assure you this is not an hack and it will be successful. It is definitely not planned to be an hilarious failure. First we need to find an horizontal plane on which to fix an hydraulic pump. Without an horizontal surface the project will be an horrible failure. With an horsepower as great as an helicopter has, an horizontally mounted hydraulic pump is an absolute requirement. Anyone is welcome to give an hand is this project to provide ideas but I think that the pump is essential.

    To start the project I need a few things:

    First, I am looking for an hand in finding an hydraulic pump that is in an horizontal plane and wondered how many people have one.

    Second, would it be a good idea to have an hang-glider attached to the bottom of the helicopter in case there is an horrible accident? An horrible accident could happen if the horizontal plane is out by as much and the width of an hair which would cause an hazardous situation that may require the pilot to abort. Without the hang-glider it may not be possible to avoid an harmful situation and it would certainly be an hazard. Having a hang-glider is surely an harmless addition even if it does not provide any pragmatic use (it would also be fun to fly.)

    Pilots will of course be provided with an helmet. Even people riding an horse have to wear an helmet otherwise they might end up in an hospital after the horse tries to jump an hurdle and there is an hump where it lands! There is a honest desire to get this project off the ground so please discuss.

    Yours Sincerely,

    Fellow hacker

    1. Re:Help needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      First, I am looking for an hand in finding an hydraulic pump that is in an horizontal plane and wondered how many people have one.

      My wife and I have sex doggy style sometimes. Does that qualify as a horizontal pump?

    2. Re:Help needed by Sarten-X · · Score: 3, Funny

      Dear Fellow Hacker,

      Unfortunately, I will be unable to provide the assistance you desire, as I have some serious concerns regarding the engineering work that has already been done on the project, and I doubt the current estimates provide an accurate foundation for future work.

      Firstly, there is the estimate of "a hour or less" to read a Slashdot post. While I have spent an hour reading a comment before, it was the proofreading of my own essay-length point-by-point rebuttal. The referenced post is obviously not nearly long enough or detailed enough to require an hour to read, so I see this as an intentional over-estimate, seeking to receive a larger donation of time than is actually needed.

      Second, you seem to have greatly underestimated the size of a hydraulic pump in comparison to a horizontal plane. You ask for "an hand in finding an hydraulic pump that is in an horizontal plane". A plane, being two-dimensional, has exactly zero thickness, which is not sufficient to hold even an atom of a hydraulic pump.

      Finally, you appear to for the power requirements of a helicopter. Helicopters can of course be designed to have any amount of available power, but that is not my concern here. Rather, I question the efficiency of your design, as the engine will need extra power to compensate for the added weight of the extraneous "n"s that appear to be attached to your "a"s.

      Yours sincerely,

      Grammar Nazi

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    3. Re:Help needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "an" hand? "an" hang-glider? WTF?

    4. Re:Help needed by giorgist · · Score: 1, Informative

      Dear fellow hacker ... do you know how to make a Jesus nut ? Note: you can't use one out of your bicycle

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_nut

      If not then all you will make is an amazing hand glider that can fly with a fridge loaded above it.

    5. Re:Help needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "an" hand? "an" hang-glider? WTF?

      I make an humble apology. Of course it probably does not need an hyphen between hang and glider. Serves me right for not proofreading before I hit the submit button.

    6. Re:Help needed by mcneely.mike · · Score: 1

      Finally, you appear to for the power requirements of a helicopter.

      Grammar Nazi

      Finally, you appear to not be a grammar Nazi. ;-)

      --
      soylentnews.org Go there to enjoy the people!
    7. Re:Help needed by Sarten-X · · Score: 1

      Damnit... That should have been "...appear to be guessing for the..."

      I'm not usually a grammar Nazi, but when I is I fail.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
  2. Legality by macraig · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Laws and legal liability are a subset of social ethics. Just because you can do something legally isn't a vindication that you should do it.

    1. Re:Legality by hey! · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Laws and legal liability are a subset of social ethics. Just because you can do something legally isn't a vindication that you should do it.

      Laws and legal liability *intersect* social ethics. There are cases where complying with law or regulations would be unethical.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    2. Re:Legality by macraig · · Score: 1

      Okay, granted... I was imagining the legal ideal. If we actually had that ideal we wouldn't need jury nullification.

    3. Re:Legality by Sarten-X · · Score: 5, Informative

      Just to clarify a point here, because it's a pet peeve of mine...

      Jury nullification is for when the law itself is unethical, not just when one application is unethical. If you have an ethical reason to break a law, that's mitigating circumstances, which can itself lead to a "not guilty" verdict, without bringing the issue of the law's legality into question (which almost always just makes a trial more complicated).

      There are really rather few cases where nullification is a reasonable option, but the hivemind here seems to be obsessed with it as a panacea for unpopular laws.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    4. Re:Legality by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 4, Insightful

      it works the other way, too.

      just because someone bought a law decrying X to be illegal does not mean its immoral to so X.

      in fact, if the law is recent enough, likely THE LAW is unethical and the behavior perfectly fine. very likely, given our back-assward world we now live in.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    5. Re:Legality by macraig · · Score: 1

      E.g.: felony murder rule.

    6. Re:Legality by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 5, Interesting

      JN _is_ a viable way to fight unjust laws. not just instances of injustice but whole laws.

      we all know that getting laws passed (or even worse, revoked) is near impossible for regular people.

      the JN option is essentially the only option we have left, as 'little people'. our power faded when corps took over making (and even sometimes enforcing) laws.

      but if you are in the jury box, you DO have a way to say 'enough is enough' this is bullshit and this guy does not deserve X to happen to him. I simply don't give a shit about what law you claim he broke; sending him to prison is WRONG and I won't allow it'.

      that's what JN is about. standing up for your view of ethics even in the face of 'establishment' saying otherwise.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    7. Re:Legality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Jury nullificaton can most certainly be applied on an individual basis, and has throughout the history of juries. Check the history of the idea over at Wikipedia: judges have hated it since the first recorded application of the principle, and it's been a dangerous practice. But there are numerous cases of individual verdicts, rather than judgments of the law itself, where the law was overridden by the jury.

      Like political assassination, it's an extreme solution to a terrible situation and one to be used with caution, lest it become used for senseless or wrongful acts in itself.

    8. Re:Legality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Usually such cases are considered already at the legislation stage and the general principle of protecting (.. I have no idea how to translate it in English .. perhaps protecting "fundamental rights in the spirit and the letter of the law") provides the necessary framework, or alternatively the basic principles of valid legal sources and the hierarchy of them, for rationally selecting the right and ultimately legal course of action.

    9. Re:Legality by roman_mir · · Score: 1, Troll

      "Unpopular laws"? Nonsense.

      The correct application of the jury nullification is any time when there is a conflict between the individual and the collective.

      Any time at all when an individual is brought up on any charges by the Federal government jury nullification must be applied.

    10. Re:Legality by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      You aren't an Article 3, Section 2, kind of guy?

    11. Re:Legality by roman_mir · · Score: 3

      That's not a law based on which an individual will be put in front of a federal judge, do you even understand what it is?

      Criminal laws are handled by States.

    12. Re:Legality by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      The correct application of the jury nullification is any time when there is a conflict between the individual and the collective.

      The collective is all the other individuals. You don't seem very keen on democracy.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    13. Re:Legality by roman_mir · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You are right, I am NOT keen on democracy. USA had it correct - it wasn't built as a democracy, it was built as a republic. Democracy always leads to tyranny, not to freedom.

      It's very easy to have a majority to vote to trump the freedoms of the minority, and this eventually trumps freedoms of everybody, because it destroys the concept of freedom and gives tools to the government officials that they didn't have before that they use to take away freedoms from everybody.

      But in the beginning the majority of the mob is used to steal these freedoms from the minority in order to open this door, at first it's done by promising the majority to use government force to steal something from the minority and give it to the majority.

      Government is used as a legalised robbery mechanism, that's how the majority of the people in USA for example (over 50%) only contribute 3% of all income taxes, and minority contributes the rest.

      Same with all other 'social' programs, including Medicare, SS, whatever. But this is just a gateway for the government to steal freedoms from everybody and apply this power against everybody (TSA, DHS, Patriot Act, NDAA with indefinite detentions, extrajudicial murder by the POTUS, destruction of money by the Fed, etc.)

      I am NOT AT ALL keen on democracy, democracy never leads to more freedoms, only to tyranny, people knew this millennia ago.

    14. Re:Legality by roman_mir · · Score: 2

      Oh, by the way, while you are absolutely correct about my stance on democracy, that was not really the main point of the comment.

      The main point was that at any time that federal government is one side of a legal issue and an individual on the other side, federal government must always lose, no exceptions.

      There can be no case when it is correct or right or moral or just for the federal government to win any case at all when it concerns an individual.

      States can deal with criminal and other laws where it concerns an individual, federal government must not even be allowed to deal with individuals, only with collective that are the States.

    15. Re:Legality by iserlohn · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Um.. did it ever cross you mind that the weathy has a responsibility to ensure that the society which is has benifitted from immensely is sustained?

      There is a moral argument for providing a social safety net (and by extension a working universal healthcare system), and then there is a practical one - a country where the majority of it citizens is not able to sustain a minimium living standard will be prone to widespread civil unrest.

      May I remind you that there were a time when government was small - social cohesion was usually maintained by force - and the living standards of the many were squalid. Are you seriously adovcating the return to those times (just so we can compete with China on cheap labor)?

    16. Re:Legality by roman_mir · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Um.. did it ever cross you mind that the weathy has a responsibility to ensure that the society which is has benifitted from immensely is sustained?

      - what crossed my mind is that this is exactly the kind of thought process that destroys the society by taking away people's individual rights and killing off the economy.

      There is a moral argument for providing a social safety net

      - not by using majority to steal from minority. There is absolutely nothing moral or just about it.

      May I remind you that there were a time when government was small - social cohesion was usually maintained by force - and the living standards of the many were squalid. Are you seriously adovcating the return to those times (just so we can compete with China on cheap labor)?

      - May I remind you that there was time when USA had the most individual freedoms FROM government intervention (specifically between the Civil war and WWI) and that was the time when USA became the most productive country, becoming world's biggest creditor nation, exporting highest quality, affordable manufactured goods. All this, while increasing the strength of its own economy and making everybody who lived in it much wealthier (the dollar gained value by factor of 2, while USA still became the largest exporter of manufactured goods).

      This was definitely prior to USA growing a huge government and destroying its economy and society in the process, while becoming world's greatest debtor nation not only on the planet at the time, but in history of humanity. USA is now bankrupt, only holding together by other nations providing it with the consumables that it eats without producing anything in return.

      --

      There is no such thing as 'responsibility' of the few to maintain standard of living for many, that's pure nonsense. Voluntarism is the key, but it only works in a free society, there is no voluntarism in a totalitarian regime. Again: democracy leads to tyranny, that's what you have now.

      As to 'safety net' - the best safety net that the humanity has invented is a wealthy and a growing economy based on a free individual making voluntary decisions in a market that is not perverted by the government intervention. Sadly USA has lost this very simple knowledge, so now it's losing the economy that it developed in that system.

    17. Re:Legality by iserlohn · · Score: 4, Insightful

      By your argument, Somalia must have the fastest growing economy on earth due to the lack of government intervention.

      The industrialization of America is not the result of less government - (in those times America has similar amount of industrial regulation when compared to its contemporaries). It is because America at that time had lots of resources, including natural resources and labor that has not been fully developed into an industrial economy. Similar to how China is right now.

      I hate to say this, but you're adding nothing to the argument. The thing we should be discussing is not whether to regulate - it is established beyond doubt in economics, especially after the events of 2007, that blind deregulation leads to extremely bad outcomes. What we need to determine is what to regulate and how to do it.

      Your argument that because government regulation may lead to some bad outcomes some of the time, so shouldn't be doing it all of the time is a logical fallcy and doesn't hold water. BTW, the proper way of dealing with government tyranny is to ensure that the constitution of government is accountable to the people, not to destroy the mechanism of government.

    18. Re:Legality by miro2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      May I remind you that there was time when USA had the most individual freedoms FROM government intervention (specifically between the Civil war and WWI)

      I don't think that was exactly the most freedom-filled time for those of us who are not white, straight, men.

    19. Re:Legality by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      By your argument, Somalia must have the fastest growing economy on earth due to the lack of government intervention.

      - no, that's not my argument, that's a strawman.

      Somalia is a consequence of a country that was destroyed by the former Communist regime and a resulting civil war (that's one way to end the totalitarian Communist rule). Of-course it wasn't much freer before the Communist rule as a British colony.

      Somalia has multiple different forms of government right now, not 'anarchy' actually, as many believe, and in a sense they are more free (depending on the part of the land) than many people elsewhere. Somalia actually became one of the first countries in the world where people started using mobile phones as means of payment, that's because there was no government stifling innovation in various parts of the economy, including banking.

      Somalia is a poor country of-course, but it cannot be used as an argument against libertarian idea, because it's a poor country that was devastated by decades of dictatorship under many different rulers. This argument has so much 'fail' in it, but it gets repeated by the uninformed, because they were told so by the other uninformed, etc.

      As to the rest of your comment, I gave a much lengthier reply already.

    20. Re:Legality by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Even today blacks are only, what, 15% of population in USA?

      In any case, by the time the Civil war ended you can't even make an argument that there was slavery involved in industrialisation, and in reality industrialisation didn't even happen in the Southern states, it started in the North if I am not completely mistaken.

      As to 'straight' - this is not an argument at all.

      Of-course I wouldn't have ratified the original Constitution as it didn't actually recognise people as equals under the law, so if I could be there and influence that outcome, there wouldn't have been a union until those problems would have been fixed.

      I can't compromise on freedom, that's all.

    21. Re:Legality by ultranova · · Score: 2

      You are right, I am NOT keen on democracy. USA had it correct - it wasn't built as a democracy, it was built as a republic.

      "Republic" means a form of government that is controlled by its subjects. In other words, it's pretty much synonymous with democracy.

      Also, the alternative to rule by many is rule by few, also known as dictatorship. Those aren't famous for maintaining people's freedoms either.

      Democracy always leads to tyranny, not to freedom.

      People keep on saying this, yet the only instances I know of where this actually happened were countries still unstable after a revolution, where democracy was killed before it could take root. Stabilized democracies seem remarkably resilient against would-be tyrants, even when said wannabes are backed by corporate overlords.

      Care to give some examples?

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    22. Re:Legality by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      "Republic" means a form of government that is controlled by its subjects. In other words, it's pretty much synonymous with democracy.

      - be specific. It's a representative democracy, which is an attempt to prevent mobocracy, which always leads to tyranny.

      Examples are plenty, if you are American, you are living in one. But as I said, I am not reinventing a bicycle here.

      Of-course unlike all other Republics before it, USA is quite unique in the artificial way that it started its existence. Roman Republic was created on the ruins of the overthrown monarchy, and it ended with Caesar, Sulla and later Pompey - dictators.

      It takes a bit of time, but it looks like all republics turn into democracies and then dictatorships.

      The height of economic development is achieved during the time the nation is a republic, then of-course, as the nation is very rich BECAUSE it is so free as a republic, that it develops huge appetite for various government programs - too many people are not actually producing anything of value, but they want their bread and circuses, and the politicos deliver.

      Of-course this stuff doesn't come from vacuum, it's stolen from those, who actually produce, and it's given away to the mob (but probably mostly to preferred contractors in form of wars - military contracts), and the democracy lives this way until it exhausts the riches acquired by the republic.

      Then, as the society collapses because the wealth is inevitably squandered, and the gov't inflates money because it can't really steal anything from anybody anymore, the people 'elect' a dictator (or one comes to power somehow), and that's the unfortunate cycle that gets repeated over and over.

    23. Re:Legality by jd · · Score: 1

      Agreed. Common Law is perhaps the most useful subset of law, in this regard, in that it provides a framework for understanding (common law marriage, for example) but that's all it provides. Criminal and civil law are intended to draw absolute lines over which people should not cross, but they're now too complex to parse and contradictory, and are therefore useless in any practical sense as that framework.

      But laws (even well-written ones) can only ever be a framework, a skeleton on which other things can hang. My personal world view is that politics then forms the deepest layer on top of that, an undercoat that cushions everything else. Ethics then forms the next layer and provides the true body, with morality then being the padding on top of ethics. In computing terms, laws would be the hardware, politics the firmware, ethics the OS and morality the userland libraries.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    24. Re:Legality by jd · · Score: 1

      "Always" is a big word, and one I suspect you do not comprehend. Indeed, by your very use of it here, you are stating you can mathematically prove your claim (since examples alone CANNOT be used to prove an "always") that there can NEVER exist a democracy that does not lead to tyranny. Unless you have the equations for Seldon's Psychohistory, I don't see how you could mathematically prove that. Ergo, your claim is arrogant and supported only by your worldview rather than by facts on the ground. Any such view is inherently blind, self-serving and depraved. It can be nothing else, regardless of any correctness contained within, as such correctness is by chance alone and not due to comprehension or understanding.

      I argue that CORRECTLY-IMPLEMENTED* democracy cannot ever lead to tyranny, that America has become tyrannical precisely because it's a republic, and that systems theory should be a mandatory part of education since there are too many idiots in the world who cannot look past their own petty self-interests to understand what democracy actually IS.

      *"Correctly-implemented" is partially defined in my journal, but for the idiots out there I'll summarize here. It has to start with Plato's requirements for a stable democracy (where Plato's educational requirement is considered not as a function of how much schools taught then but as a function of how much there is to know at any given point in time). However, since I hold that ALL aspects of society must progress IN NET at an equal rate, I extend Plato's requirement by saying that the political institutions must evolve in nature at no slower pace than either society or science, whichever is the FASTER of the two. Politics that is not evidence-based and rationally-driven is guaranteed to stagnate, and it is stagnation that causes corruption. NOTHING survives being stagnant for long, evolve or perish.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    25. Re:Legality by Jawnn · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Um.. did it ever cross you mind that the weathy has a responsibility to ensure that the society which is has benifitted from immensely is sustained?

      - what crossed my mind is that this is exactly the kind of thought process that destroys the society by taking away people's individual rights and killing off the economy.

      The history of the United States would contradict your fairy-tale views. When the U.S. was it's most prosperous, when the standard of living for the average citizen was at it's absolute highest, the extremely wealthy were "suffering" tax rates far, far higher than at any time before or since.

    26. Re:Legality by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      The history of the United States would contradict your fairy-tale views. When the U.S. was it's most prosperous, when the standard of living for the average citizen was at it's absolute highest, the extremely wealthy were "suffering" tax rates far, far higher than at any time before or since.

      - nonsense. That's the time after 1947, when gov't cut spending by 64% and taxes by 30%, which finally allowed the Great Depression to end, but that wasn't due to high taxes or anything of the sort, it was the consequence of USA having a near monopoly on production as the rest of the world was in shambles.

      The real prosperity (not based on the unfortunate situation of the rest of the world) was achieved in USA in 19 century after the Civil war, when free market allowed maximum competition and turned the country into a manufacturing powerhouse, turning USA into a major (or biggest) creditor nation and exporter of hight quality manufactured goods.

    27. Re:Legality by hamburger+lady · · Score: 1

      so if the federal government asserts that they have the right to restrict citizens from owning nuclear bombs, you're going to say the feds must lose on that issue? nuclear non-proliferation is the job of the states?

      what's your feeling on discipline in the armed forces? you think courts martial are unconstitutional because it's the feds vs an individual?

      --

      ---
      Is this the MPAA? Is this the RIAA? Is this the DMCA? I thought it was the USA!
    28. Re:Legality by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Oh, another one. We can use induction of-course by looking at the past, and if the performance of the past (and of the current) is any indication of the future, then this vicious cycle of: republic (which allows for most wealth to be created), democracy (which happens ONLY because there is all this wealth accumulated) and then tyranny (which happens because democracy / mobocracy is used by the politicos to gain most power by stealing and handing out bread, circuses and military contracts) will always be the resulting outcome of all future democracies, just like they were of all past democracies (the few that existed).

      The ones that are still in existence today - well, we are looking at them becoming totalitarian dictatorships right at this very moment.

      But I don't care to predict the far away future, I only care about this life time, so you can keep your pedantry in your basement.

      I argue that CORRECTLY-IMPLEMENTED* democracy cannot ever lead to tyranny

      - ha ha ha, and you will tell us all about how you'll implement this 'correctly', and you'll tell us all about how you'll change the character of the people NOT to want to live better than their neighbours by doing as little as possible actual production?

      Yeah, we've seen this nonsense said over and over, by every revolutionary and every missionary of the world.

    29. Re:Legality by nothousebroken · · Score: 1

      Not exclusively. There are lots of federal criminal statutes and federal criminal prosecutions.

    30. Re:Legality by iserlohn · · Score: 2

      Maybe you should heed your calling and build up Somolia into the world class economy that they deserve due to their superior libertarian ideals. May I be the first to wish you luck.

      Your ability to see reality through libertarian-o-vision is truly amazing.

    31. Re:Legality by jd · · Score: 4, Informative

      Then you're a moron. Your points are contradicted by reality.

      Individual rights cannot exist without collective rights for them to exist within. Anarchy has total freedom but no rights.

      Social safety nets exist because all natural systems degenerate to the 80:20 rule and the 80:20 rule is neither efficient nor ethical.

      The US has never been particularly productive, individual freedoms != individual rights (Americans really need to grasp this), and the time between the Civil War and WW1 is when it was guilty of most of the theft of technology from other nations, had one of the worst civil rights records and was most interested in financially backing tyrannies and dictatorships. It fought many wars in that time out of greed and perversion (not claiming more recent wars were better, merely those wars were cynical, self-serving and degenerate), xenophobia and religious extremism were rampant. The South, especially, became dangerously close to Failed Nation status out of its desire to circumvent individual rights in the name of individual freedom.

      I regard the US as the worst possible example of progressive or rational thinking. The first President had it right - political parties are destructive monstrosities and liberty is no excuse for the destruction of society.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    32. Re:Legality by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Precisely. And all of them should be nullified.

    33. Re:Legality by Sabriel · · Score: 1

      Um.. did it ever cross you mind that the weathy has a responsibility to ensure that the society which is has benifitted from immensely is sustained?

      - what crossed my mind is that this is exactly the kind of thought process that destroys the society by taking away people's individual rights and killing off the economy.

      It seems to me the GP just described an aspect of what in medieval times was called "noblesse oblige", or in its modern form "with great power comes great responsibility", and you just said to hell with that. Did I misunderstand?

    34. Re:Legality by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      due to their superior libertarian ideals.

      - more strawman.

      Where is it written that Somalians have LIBERTARIAN IDEAS?

      Are you high?

      By the way, I AM interested in Somalia, looking to see if there is a way to invest in something there. I like investing into things when they are down.

    35. Re:Legality by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      so if the federal government asserts that they have the right to restrict citizens from owning nuclear bombs, you're going to say the feds must lose on that issue? nuclear non-proliferation is the job of the states?

      - yes.

      what's your feeling on discipline in the armed forces? you think courts martial are unconstitutional because it's the feds vs an individual?

      - I am against standing armies, especially on federal level. They are just a hair-trigger away from becoming tools of oppression.

    36. Re:Legality by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Any responsibility that you think you can place upon an individual to care for another individual by rule of law is unjust and immoral.

      When did 'responsibility' become a synonym for 'oppression by the threat of government violence'?

    37. Re:Legality by jd · · Score: 1

      An element of a set cannot be extrapolated to infer the set. Induction is useless, particularly in your case as you're apparently incapable of comprehending what rules you can perform induction on, or how.

      Your "logic" states nothing beyond your personal arrogance, it shows NOTHING. Democracy doesn't require wealth and CORRECTLY-IMPLEMENTED democracy has no mob rule, populist rule, etc. Those exist only in degenerate systems, where the Tea Party is a classic example of degeneracy in action. You show nothing in your claim, you certainly prove nothing.

      But I don't care to predict the far away future, I only care about this life time, so you can keep your pedantry in your basement.

      You're the one insisting on this "always" crap. "Always" IS a prediction of the far future. And every possible far future at that. "Always" is as absolute as it gets. "Always" means "For ALL X in Y, with no exceptions". Only a fool, a moron or a religious freak uses the word with the kind of abandon you do.

      - ha ha ha, and you will tell us all about how you'll implement this 'correctly', and you'll tell us all about how you'll change the character of the people NOT to want to live better than their neighbours by doing as little as possible actual production?

      "Always" requires you to prove no such element exists, or you cannot have an "always". I don't need to show how it will be implemented, to falsify an "always" I merely need to show that there exists an X in Y where your claim is wrong. I don't need to show anything beyond that, I only need to show your claim cannot be true.

      If you like, I *CAN* show how such a thing would be implemented correctly, WITHOUT changing the character of people. No, revolutionaries and missionaries do not describe democracies. Indeed, they cannot. That I *can* prove mathematically.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    38. Re:Legality by roman_mir · · Score: 0

      Then you're a moron. Your points are contradicted by reality.

      - I would love to have you say that in person.

      Individual rights cannot exist without collective rights for them to exist within. Anarchy has total freedom but no rights.

      - individual rights are only a meaningful construct when they are applied in context of relation between individual and the collective.

      USA was artificially created based on agreement that individuals had rights ( though I woudn't have ratified that document, as it didn't acknowledge that all people are equal in the eyes of the law and that race doesn't matter).

      A RIGHT is a concept that only makes sense when we are talking about INDIVIDUAL having RIGHT not to be bothered by the COLLECTIVE, by the government without justification.

      So government cannot steal individual's property, kill the individual, imprison him, etc., without due process (of-course your current administration argues that this doesn't apply anymore, that's the consequence of Democracy in action, as Democracy opened the original doors to all these rulers to throw away the law above them - the Constitution ).

    39. Re:Legality by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      An element of a set cannot be extrapolated to infer the set. Induction is useless, particularly in your case as you're apparently incapable of comprehending what rules you can perform induction on, or how.

      - since when do I have to prove something about far away future, while we know the history and the current, and what does it matter if 1000 years in the future there will be some other form of democracy that may exist for a longer period of time?

      How is it relevant?

      It's irrelevant completely, but you obviously don't understand that.

      emocracy doesn't require wealth and CORRECTLY-IMPLEMENTED d

      - again, as all of the revolutionaries, the missionaries and all of the failed dictators of the past (and current and not too distant future), they have all talked about building the NEW man and the NEW society and to do that all they needed was just to change the nature of the individual, to give the individual a higher degree of consciousness, so that the individual would become part of the collective and throw away his own real desires and ambitions etc.

      Well, I'll tell you something: sooner MY statement that all democracies lead to tyranny is correct, than your notion that you can change the character of the man and make him want less for himself and more for others for no other reason but to build this 'correct society' that you want to see.

      I DO NOT want to see this 'correct society', and this is a good enough proof for me that you, and those like you will fail every time. I don't want equality, I don't want democracy, I want FREEDOM from people and this contrived idea that people can be all equal based on democratic rule IMPLIES that you will have to CHAIN me with the threat of government violence.

      Your hands are just itching to put a thick metal chain on me and others, it's really interesting to observe (but very common).

    40. Re:Legality by Sabriel · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't that make all rules of law unjust and immoral?

    41. Re:Legality by Xyrus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      - what crossed my mind is that this is exactly the kind of thought process that destroys the society by taking away people's individual rights and killing off the economy.

      Your opinion is backed up by facts. Popular uprising and social unrest always results from the haves trampling the have-nots. You can either think ahead and plan for a sustainable system or you can pilfer by force through a robber-baron culture until people get pissed off enough to take to the streets.

      not by using majority to steal from minority. There is absolutely nothing moral or just about it.

      Nobody is stealing anything. It takes money to maintain a large nation, and it has to come from somewhere. You certainly aren't going to get it from the poor, which make up a surprisingly large percentage of this country.

      Sounds to me like your perfectly happy letting the rich rape the poor though.

      - May I remind you that there was time when USA had the most individual freedoms FROM government intervention (specifically between the Civil war and WWI) and that was the time when USA became the most productive country, becoming world's biggest creditor nation, exporting highest quality, affordable manufactured goods. All this, while increasing the strength of its own economy and making everybody who lived in it much wealthier (the dollar gained value by factor of 2, while USA still became the largest exporter of manufactured goods).

      [citation needed]

      Some of the worst economic crisis happened during that period, including recurring bank runs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recessions_in_the_United_States). What your describing happened after WW2, and that's because we were one of the places with an economy and manufacturing capability still intact after the war.

      This was definitely prior to USA growing a huge government and destroying its economy and society in the process, while becoming world's greatest debtor nation not only on the planet at the time, but in history of humanity.

      That's the fault of congress and the wealthy that fund and control them. In case you hadn't notice, there aren't exactly many poor people in positions of power so your "tyranny of the majority" argument has no basis. Th wealthy are in control of the nation, and it is the wealthy who will drive it into the ground for their own benefit.

      USA is now bankrupt, only holding together by other nations providing it with the consumables that it eats without producing anything in return.

      We are not bankrupt. You're opinion is that we are bankrupt, but by any legal definition we are far from being bankrupt.

      And once again, you have only the wealthy to blame. They pushed to remove regulations and restrictions, and once they got what they wanted they shipped everything off overseas to increase profits, created entire markets on speculation, and trashed the economy and manufacturing in this country in the process. Sure, we can get those jobs back if we roll back labor laws to allow conditions like third world countries to occur here but I'm pretty sure that will result in some serious issues.

      There is no such thing as 'responsibility' of the few to maintain standard of living for many, that's pure nonsense.

      Well, at least not to a sociopath such as yourself.

      Voluntarism is the key, but it only works in a free society, there is no voluntarism in a totalitarian regime.

      Voluntarism doesn't work at large scales. Do you honestly think people will donate enough to offset the social safety nets in this country? Especially when almost all the wealth is controlled by a very tiny percent of the population? You're incredibly naive if you thinks so.

      Again: democracy leads to tyranny, that's what you have now.

      You really have no fucking idea what tyranny is. Grow up.

      --
      ~X~
    42. Re:Legality by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      How is that? Caring for another individual by threat of violence VS not HURTING other individual are different things.

      We don't hurt each other (in most cases, hopefully), and it's not even because of laws, it's because of reciprocity, because in reality an open conflict among grown ups ends in serious injury or death.

      Laws are really irrelevant, once somebody is killed as an example, the laws can only be used to punish after the fact, they can't undo the damage.

      AFAIC most laws are ineffectual anyway, basically people either have it in them - to hurt others, or they don't. All that laws can do is punish them after the fact IF the perpetrator is caught.

      But we are not talking about THAT, we are talking about forcing somebody to actively 'care' about another individual by threat of violence, not about preventing somebody from hurting another individual. So that has nothing to do with normal criminal law.

    43. Re:Legality by roman_mir · · Score: 0

      Your opinion is backed up by facts.

      - I know.

      Popular uprising and social unrest always results from the haves trampling the have-nots.

      - popular uprising and social unrest always results from certain people with some influence organising the unwashed masses around them as a tool to take over the current establishment, so that they can become the establishment. Obviously this requires some blood, all revolutions do.

      Nobody is stealing anything. It takes money to maintain a large nation, and it has to come from somewhere.

      - yes, it's theft. And no, it doesn't take that much money to maintain a working government system, what does take money is to use the government system as a source of income for the closest corporations/friends. Of-course the pretence that is used to steal at first is 'social net'.

      Sounds to me like your perfectly happy letting the rich rape the poor though.

      - no, it's you, who are ignorant enough not to understand that big government IS the system that rapes the poor and free market is the system that allows the poor to improve their standard of living with more competition, more efficient distribution of wealth.

      As I mentioned, the USD increased in value by factor of 2 while prices were falling and USA had more competition in manufacturing and services than ever in 19th century. That was the century that CREATED the middle class, which didn't even exist as a concept prior to that time.

      Some of the worst economic crisis happened during that period, including recurring bank runs

      - bank runs are not a problem, they allow weeding out the bad banks, which is exactly what needs to happen.

      Currently you won't have bank runs, because gov't will always print enough money to give it back to you (thus the joke of FDIC), but your money is worth less and less.

      That's the fault of congress and the wealthy that fund and control them. In case you hadn't notice, there aren't exactly many poor people in positions of power so your "tyranny of the majority" argument has no basis. Th wealthy are in control of the nation, and it is the wealthy who will drive it into the ground for their own benefit.

      - no.

      It's the fault of the people who have been complicit with the government trampling over individual rights and freedoms because the people got the scraps off the table - the so called 'social net', etc., it's all scraps, while the real theft was happening. BUT it always takes PEOPLE to allow that.

      We are not bankrupt. You're opinion is that we are bankrupt, but by any legal definition we are far from being bankrupt.

      - it's not an opinion, it's a fact. USA is bankrupt, it can never repay its debts in real value. Worthless currency can be printed in any quantity, eventually this will crash the dollar completely (as if the loss of value from 1913, when 1 ounce of gold was 19 bucks and it's over 1650 now is not enough).

      ...wealthy to blame. They pushed to remove regulations and restrictions, ... shipped everything off overseas to increase profits, created entire markets on speculation, and trashed the economy and manufacturing in this country in the process.

      - no, that's the government at work.

      People don't move jobs for the hell of it, they do so because they see their money stolen and they see better conditions elsewhere, I encourage more people to do so, I did.

      USA WILL have to become competitive again, of-course it will be forced to when the dollar crashes and nobody sells anything for it anymore (or it doesn't even have to crash fully, huge loss of value is good enough eventually for prices to skyrocket, and I see this in the very near future for USA, after all, now it's a net exporter of oil, is that a first in a century?)

    44. Re:Legality by Jawnn · · Score: 2

      Like I said, "fairy tale". Have a look at meaningful, real numbers. Things like the marginal tax rates and the median adjusted income, and then tell me that post WWII was so miserable, or that the 19th century was so wonderful. Or better yet, explain why the your unicorns and free market approach of the late 19th and early 20th centuries led to such a fucked up economy that it ended in The Great Depression?

    45. Re:Legality by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      I gave enough details on the Great Depression, with numbers, etc. It was caused by the federal reserve monetising UK debt, buying out bad debt UK owed to France (interestingly enough, it was bad debt to France that prompted Nixon to default on the gold dollar).

      The Fed printed enough money from 1913 to 1920 that it caused the depression of 1921, which ended in about 2 years after Harding cut gov't spending by around 70% (real spending, not what they do today).

      Nobody paid the marginal taxes in post war USA, there were enough loopholes to drive entire fortunes through them, nobody was dumb enough to pay taxes in those brackets, so the effective rate never went over 20%.

      The fucked up economy you are observing today is a result of the government growth, predicated by the socialist agenda that allowed the government to sidestep the Constitution (all the social nets - bread and circuses) and obviously the Constitution was thrown out of the window.

      Constitution is the law above the government, and once nobody gives a shit, the gov't can do whatever. This included every unconstitutional thing they could come up with, including illegal wars, SS, Medicare, all of the regulations that destroyed property rights (including the Civil Rights act of 1964, which in reality is an Entitlement and Obligations act, there is nothing about rights there that's positive, rights of private property owners were destroyed. This also includes everything: from EPA and FDA and HUD to dep't of energy, education, commerce, interior, FBI, Patriot Act, etc.)

      The Great Depression started in 1925 with Fed starting to monetise bad UK debt, but it DID NOT have to be depression, it was Hoover with insane spending policies, trying to 'stave away' the recession and turning it into depression.

      FDR, by the way, won the election by promising TO CUT HOOVER'S SPENDING.

      Anyway, go do something useful and stop wasting my time.

    46. Re:Legality by iserlohn · · Score: 1

      The only reason why you can claim that other are using strawman arguments is because you selectively ignore the arguments people present against you. If you feel that that the only people you can get along with are the people you agree, then fine. It doesn't help your case though.

      There are many arguments against a public sector which is too large - mainly dealing with the inefficiencies resulting from lack of competition and the resulting stagnation - none of which deals with the type of paranoid and dystopian fear of government you are trying to sell.

      The proper (and only) way of dealing with the government acting against the interest of its citizens is through thorough transparency and unconditional accountability of government. There is no way you can really get rid of "government", other (and more corrupt) institutions fills any power vacuum left by a disintegrating publically accountable government. You should be well aware of that since you seem to be an expert in Somalia.

      In the meantime, I wish you safe journey to Mogadishu. I take it you must have been there before, or maybe there now - on the ground unearthing the amazing industrial potential there.

    47. Re:Legality by ultranova · · Score: 1

      "Republic" means a form of government that is controlled by its subjects. In other words, it's pretty much synonymous with democracy.

      - be specific. It's a representative democracy, which is an attempt to prevent mobocracy, which always leads to tyranny.

      When people say "democracy", they mean representative democracy, not ancient Atheian direct democracy. Also, please explain the difference between representative democracy and mobocracy?

      Examples are plenty, if you are American, you are living in one.

      Yet the people living in America are neither censored nor imprisoned for voicing such opinions in public.

      And saying "examples are plentiful" isn't actually providing any.

      But as I said, I am not reinventing a bicycle here.

      Plato wanted rule by "philosopher kings", in other words a dictatorship with himself at the helm. If you so dislike tyranny, then perhaps you shouldn't take your cues from him.

      Of-course unlike all other Republics before it, USA is quite unique in the artificial way that it started its existence. Roman Republic was created on the ruins of the overthrown monarchy, and it ended with Caesar, Sulla and later Pompey - dictators.

      It takes a bit of time, but it looks like all republics turn into democracies and then dictatorships.

      It's interesting that you should argue that when you mention subversion in the very preceding paragraph: Roman Republic didn't collapse, it became an empire due to a military takeover. It never was a democracy, and the whole thing had nothing to do with economics.

      The height of economic development is achieved during the time the nation is a republic, then of-course, as the nation is very rich BECAUSE it is so free as a republic, that it develops huge appetite for various government programs - too many people are not actually producing anything of value, but they want their bread and circuses, and the politicos deliver.

      Of-course this stuff doesn't come from vacuum, it's stolen from those, who actually produce, and it's given away to the mob (but probably mostly to preferred contractors in form of wars - military contracts), and the democracy lives this way until it exhausts the riches acquired by the republic.

      And by "the mob" you presumably mean the great majority of people who actually work for a living? Because almost all government programs are targeted to benefit them.

      Sure, we have a bunch of parasites who produce nothing except problems, but I'd hardly call 1% a mob, unless you meant a capital-M Mob.

      Then, as the society collapses because the wealth is inevitably squandered, and the gov't inflates money because it can't really steal anything from anybody anymore, the people 'elect' a dictator (or one comes to power somehow), and that's the unfortunate cycle that gets repeated over and over.

      You have yet to show a single example of this cycle, much less that it is repeating over and over again. And that would be quite difficult indeed, seeing how modern democracies are only a few hundred years old at most, and are still going strong, current problems nonwithstanding - after all, they were caused by deregulation (loosening government control) and resulting abuses by the rich.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    48. Re:Legality by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      The only reason why you can claim that other are using strawman arguments is because you selectively ignore the arguments people present against you.

      - no.

      The reason why they are strawman is because they are not the arguments that I make, but also they are pretty stupid. Weren't you the one saying that in Somalia they have LIBERTARIAN IDEAS? :) Hah ahahahaha, oh boy, that's funny. Libertarian ideas. If you believe that they have 'libertarian ideas' and that's why they have the problems that they do today, then I guess yes, you can't understand a word of what I am talking about.

      Libertarian ideas in Somalia. Yeah, ok.

    49. Re:Legality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even if he is, you're still arguing like a jackass. You're not really arguing against him so much as calling him an idiot. This is pretty typical of many people on both sides, but you should still be ashamed when you're pretending to be in the right.

    50. Re:Legality by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      In a democratically controlled system of government, there is no excuse for the existence of unpopular laws.

    51. Re:Legality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "did it ever cross you mind that the weathy has a responsibility to ensure that the society which is has benifitted from immensely is sustained?"

      Yes, but this is the age of individualism and personal responsibility, which does not mesh well with having a sense of responsibility for others. And conversely many people that are doing well think it's exclusively due to their own merit; they don't see it as benefiting from society.

    52. Re:Legality by Iamthecheese · · Score: 1

      If taxing the rich more than the poor is the beginning of lost freedoms, there is no free government on earth.

      --
      If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
    53. Re:Legality by hamburger+lady · · Score: 1

      I'm sure the guys who wrote the constitution would be surprised to hear that courts martial and other decisions and rules that run the armed forces are blatantly unconstitutional.

      --

      ---
      Is this the MPAA? Is this the RIAA? Is this the DMCA? I thought it was the USA!
    54. Re:Legality by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Did I say court martial is unconstitutional? Articles of War handle this provision.

      I said: I am against having standing armies and just like the Founders, I prefer State militias to be handling border patrol. But Constitution DOES allow federal gov't to 'provide' Navy and Army.

    55. Re:Legality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You sir have rather specific pet peeves.

    56. Re:Legality by jd · · Score: 1

      I would love to have you say that in person.

      I've said that - and more - to professors, generals and lords. I've said similar things to bullies (and have plenty of scars where they've lobbed me through windows). Why should I be afraid to say the same thing to you? I believe in the ultimate authority of reality, opinions and emotions are as nothing. They have no currency, only that which is matters, and all the implicit threats can't change that.

      USA was artificially created based on agreement that individuals had rights

      Every form of life beyond protozoa exists in a natural collective. To identify the USA as artificial is to therefore identify yourself as equal to a protozoa.

      A RIGHT is a concept that only makes sense when we are talking about INDIVIDUAL having RIGHT not to be bothered by the COLLECTIVE, by the government without justification.

      Like I said, you are equal to a protozoa. No form of life beyond that is so completely incompetent or incapable of rational thought. Rights are not about individuals vs collectives, rights are about ANY entity (including the collective) having authority without permission external to that entity, that is innate and inalienable. So all groups have rights. Individual rights are also protection against other individuals, so I have the ABSOLUTE right to not have you insult me. And that IS an absolute right. I will not tolerate further breach of that right by you or any other individual.

      So government cannot steal individual's property, kill the individual, imprison him, etc.

      Yet you would steal, kill or imprison, a violation of the very things you "claim" to be rights. Why? Because you do not believe in these rights at all. You do not comprehend rights, you comprehend only your own pride and contempt for all that are not you.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    57. Re:Legality by roman_mir · · Score: 0

      I've said that - and more - to professors, generals and lords.

      - blah blah blah

      Every form of life beyond protozoa exists in a natural collective. To identify the USA as artificial is to therefore identify yourself as equal to a protozoa.

      - too much projection on your part.

      Like I said, you are equal to a protozoa. No form of life beyond that is so completely incompetent or incapable of rational thought.

      - there goes your entire argument.

      Yet you would steal, kill or imprison, a violation of the very things you "claim" to be rights. Why? Because you do not believe in these rights at all. You do not comprehend rights, you comprehend only your own pride and contempt for all that are not you.

      - rights are a concept applied only to the individual in his relationship to the collective, the concept of rights means nothing between 2 individual or other entities that are equal to each other and are not governing each other due to the power of the collective.

      To say that you are a protozoa is to say nothing at all and it is likely to be an insult to the single celled organism, at least it has some sense not to get into subjects it doesn't understand at all.

    58. Re:Legality by Jawnn · · Score: 1

      Nobody paid the marginal taxes in post war USA, there were enough loopholes to drive entire fortunes through them, nobody was dumb enough to pay taxes in those brackets, so the effective rate never went over 20%.

      Right, about one-third higher than is commonly paid by that group now. Nice try. It's the collected revenue that counts. You really need to broaden your sources - you know include more than Rand and crack-pot economists.

    59. Re:Legality by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      That group has moved its income out of USA by the way, and nearly nobody paid income taxes, especially when they were that high, they would be idiots to, there was basically no way to do any cross checking without computerised records and you could write off just about anything against your income.

      Beyond that even if you couldn't write off anything, you'd just not take a salary that would put you mostly into the marginal bracket.

      My sources do not in fact include 'Rand', whatever that is.

    60. Re:Legality by jd · · Score: 1

      Because "all" and "every" have no exceptions, now or ever. If you use these words, I need find ONE exception, that is all. Your claim that it is irrelevant is because I have found your supposed logic wanting and you can't cope with that.

      - again, as all of the revolutionaries, the missionaries and all of the failed dictators of the past (and current and not too distant future), they have all talked about building the NEW man and the NEW society and to do that all they needed was just to change the nature of the individual, to give the individual a higher degree of consciousness, so that the individual would become part of the collective and throw away his own real desires and ambitions etc.

      But I'm not talking about building the "new man" or the "new culture". I am not talking about building any "thing". A permanent state of interlocked change isn't a thing. Nor is it building. It's not a construct, it's a process. Nor am I talking about changing individuals, I am talking about changing CHANGE, to inhibit stagnation.

      I DO NOT want to see this 'correct society', and this is a good enough proof for me that you, and those like you will fail every time.

      What you want to see has no bearing on what this would or would not achieve. To use that as "logic" is to prove your incapacity to think.

      MY statement that all democracies lead to tyranny is correct

      You offer no evidence, you offer religion. Religion is for the weak.

      I don't want democracy, I want FREEDOM from people

      Only the dead are free from people, so go kill yourself.

      this contrived idea that people can be all equal

      Define "equal". I hold that people are not "equal" in the sense of identical, but then your brain cells are not equal in the sense of being identical either. So what? Equitability is not equality. Indeed, it is not equality that you object to, but equitability, that you should treat ALL others the way you would like to be treated. But you don't want to treat people well. If you were in a collective, you'd be the worst dictator of all. You have no sense of others, you want it all and bugger the rest. You are the very evil you claim to despise. You don't despise that loss of "rights", you despise those rights.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    61. Re:Legality by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Because "all" and "every" have no exceptions, now or ever. If you use these words, I need find ONE exception, that is all. Your claim that it is irrelevant is because I have found your supposed logic wanting and you can't cope with that.

      - do you suffer from some form of a mental disorder?

      , I am talking about changing CHANGE, to inhibit stagnation.

      - you are talking about something that you believe to be 'correct'. Well, your 'correct' idea is one of infinite number of ideas, and it's about as likely to become reality as any other idea equal to it in probability, logic boy, so you'd have to force it upon people and this would require you to sell it, like all other revolutionaries and missionaries were selling their nonsense ideas, and obviously it means that you want all people to accept it, which will not happen, and THAT is terribly easy to prove.

      In the entire human history there was no such thing as all people accepting one idea and going with it and nobody trying to take advantage of the idiots who accepted it for his/her own gain. It's very easy to become a dictator in a system like that and it always happens.

      And when I say ALWAYS I absolutely mean ALWAYS IN HISTORY and that is absolutely good enough for me. If you live long enough to hit an exception, send a message.

      You offer no evidence, you offer religion. Religion is for the weak

      - if history is religion.

      Only the dead are free from people, so go kill yourself.

      - the dead have no way to be free or otherwise, I'd sooner kill you to be more free, obviously you are an agent of the ideas that would chain other people and thus it is a moral imperative that you must be stopped if you gain traction.

      Define "equal". I hold that people are not "equal" in the sense of identical, but then your brain cells are not equal in the sense of being identical either. So what? Equitability is not equality. Indeed, it is not equality that you object to, but equitability, that you should treat ALL others the way you would like to be treated.

      - false.

      I treat people the way I expect to be treated, that is to say I do not presume to tell them how to live their lives.

      . But you don't want to treat people well. If you were in a collective, you'd be the worst dictator of all. You have no sense of others, you want it all and bugger the rest. You are the very evil you claim to despise. You don't despise that loss of "rights", you despise those rights.

      - nonsense. What I want is above your simple ideas and I am doing what I want even now.

      As to being absolutely free - we are never absolutely free, but we must strive for maximum freedom that we can get, otherwise it's slavery all the way down, and it looks to me you really like to promote it.

    62. Re:Legality by hamburger+lady · · Score: 1

      but that's a case of the federal government against an individual. according to you the government should always lose a court martial on account of the rights of an individual.

      --

      ---
      Is this the MPAA? Is this the RIAA? Is this the DMCA? I thought it was the USA!
    63. Re:Legality by LDAPMAN · · Score: 1

      I do NOT have a responsibility to anyone else other than to leave them alone, to not harm them, to not steal from them...etc. Beyond that I can choose to help them, or to do business with them. It does certainly make sense, in many situations, to to aid others and I will gladly do so. However, as soon as the choice is taken from me by force then we are on the road to tyranny and serfdom. Forced transfer of wealth is immoral.

    64. Re:Legality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is a moral argument for providing a social safety net [...], and then there is a practical one - a country where the majority of it citizens is not able to sustain a minimium living standard will be prone to widespread civil unrest.

      Another way of saying this is that the poor, collectively, extort money from the rich under threat of violence: "If you don't give us something, we'll riot, break things and hurt people.". This suggests a moral imperative against wealth redistribution: you're not supposed to give in to bullies, because it encourages them.

      I'm not saying that this is an overriding motivation: just that there are moral arguments on both sides.

    65. Re:Legality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dear Mr. Mir,
      You have read too much Ayn Raynd. And she was just as bad a writer as an economist/philosopher. Much has been said to criticise her, so I will not repeat it here. Ok, only three points:
      1. If the State does not provide education, health, justice and security, you will have private education (thus losing on many potential geniuses that will never get educated), private health (innefficient - look at per-capita spending in the US vs any EU country, and at health outcomes), and private justice and security (where those that can't pay, don't get any). It is in the best interests of a society to make sure that all citizens benefit from all of the above.
      2. There will always be cases where corporations or people can make more profits with activities that hurt the public (read up on "externalities", "tragedy of the commons" and so on). Without a state to stand up to them, how would a "free" society stop these behaviours? There is a need for a counter-power, and the State fits the bill.
      3. Without taxes, people will not contribute fairly to the common good (see above); freeloaders (those that opt to contribute less) would have a competitive advantage, and through exploiting it (eg, under-pricing their "fair" neighbors), would displace those that opted to contribute more. End result: no State, or "private States": robber barons. Taxes are a very necessary evil.

    66. Re:Legality by iserlohn · · Score: 1

      By the way - it's "ideals" not ideas. And from this discussion, I can deduce the following about you -

      1. Your sarcasm detector is faulty or non-functioning - either by design, or purposely.
      2. You can't live with youself if you don't have the last word.

      Come on, prove me wrong.

    67. Re:Legality by kaatochacha · · Score: 1

      I'm impressed by you, really.
      Most people would just think what they think, but you're actually stating it in an actively hostile environment. Regardless of whether I believe what you're saying or not, I give you credit.

    68. Re:Legality by jc42 · · Score: 1

      Even today blacks are only, what, 15% of population in USA?

      Actually, you can have a bit of fun with that (if you're into picky logic and legalism) by asking what the definition of "black" is.

      Thus, a number of US states used to use the "one drop" definition: If you have any black African ancestor anywhere in your family tree, you're legally a Negro. This was notoriously used in the 1800s in a number of cases in which a widow's inheritance was claimed by her husband's family by presenting evidence that she had an African ancestor N generations back, and was thus Negro and legally unable to marry in the state. This voided her marriage and her inheritance rights. This was likely fraudulent in many cases, but the courts tended to accept such claims.

      I had a friend in college who like to tell people that she was black. She had very pale skin, freckles, blue eyes, and reddish-blond hair. She looked as pure, stereotypical Irish or Scottish as one can imagine. But she said her family tree included a "Negro" 5 generations back, so she was 1/32 black, and would still be legally black in a few states such as Mississippi. She seemed to enjoy making claims on her "black heritage" (and was in fact a real jazz fan ;-).

      Back around 1980, some American demographers published the claim that sometime around then (plus or minus a decade or so), the American population reached the point that over 50% of the population has black-African ancestry. Of course, most are like her, with no discernible "black" features", because that ancestry was too far back to be significant. Some recent DNA testing has given support to this claim, though of course with very large error bars.

      Of course, all humans ultimately have African ancestry. For Europeans, this was mostly recently from the wave of immigration that started about 40,000 years ago, with the Cro Magnon people. They lost their dark coloring with time, because it wasn't adaptive in the cool, cloudy climate of ice-age Europe. But they are still genetically difficult to distinguish from some of the related populations of central Africa.

      Anyway, that 15% estimate is mostly based on people who self-identify as "black" (or whatever term they prefer this month). It's a reasonable number for social purposes. But it doesn't mean much genetically.

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
  3. Huzzah! by tqk · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ... we cannot say that there is no need to question a company's actions just because they are not a crime under the law.

    The spirit of the Samurai still lives. This is good. I'd thought MacArthur had bled that out of the Japanese.

    --
    "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    1. Re:Huzzah! by ColdWetDog · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The spirit of the Samurai still lives. This is good. I'd thought MacArthur had bled that out of the Japanese.

      Samurai were conservative engineers? Who knew? I thought they were a warrior race. Did they wear the Medieval Japanese equivalent of a pocket protector?

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    2. Re:Huzzah! by tqk · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The spirit of the Samurai still lives. This is good. I'd thought MacArthur had bled that out of the Japanese.

      Samurai were conservative engineers? Who knew? I thought they were a warrior race.

      Wikipedia: "From the earliest times, the Samurai felt that the path of the warrior was one of honor, emphasizing duty to one's master, and loyalty unto death." That's what I was talking about. He didn't just "build to code." He built what he believed was necessary to satisfy the requirements of the situation. He was also proved right.

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    3. Re:Huzzah! by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Funny

      I'm not sure that's a 'Samurai' thing as much as a 'not a sociopath' thing...

    4. Re:Huzzah! by Jawnn · · Score: 1

      The spirit of the Samurai still lives. This is good. I'd thought MacArthur had bled that out of the Japanese.

      Samurai were conservative engineers? Who knew? I thought they were a warrior race. Did they wear the Medieval Japanese equivalent of a pocket protector?

      Actually, they were not a "race" at all. They were a warrior class, though in the case of the Samurai, "warrior" is a rather inadequate term to describe the those bound by Bushido.

    5. Re:Huzzah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Samurai Engineer: Always builds to code....of honor.

    6. Re:Huzzah! by tqk · · Score: 1

      That'd make a great .sig ...

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    7. Re:Huzzah! by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      Duty to one's master an loyalty until death is a recipe for all kinds of corner cutting and neglect of wider obligations.

      Samurai isn't the right model for obligation to society at large. But what is?

    8. Re:Huzzah! by tqk · · Score: 1

      Samurai isn't the right model for obligation to society at large. But what is?

      I don't recognize any obligations I have to society at large. As long as my fist isn't impacting your nose, I shouldn't be any problem for you. I try to get along and cooperate with and support others when it's in my interest, as should you. I avoid and boycott bad behavior on the part of others, as should you. I don't think any more should be expected of either of us.

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    9. Re:Huzzah! by jafac · · Score: 1

      Frankly, the Samurai were a privileged upper-class of the 16th-18th century. And even then, most men who could call themselves "Samurai" were really basically accountants or family members, of the very upper echelons, who perhaps spent a lot of time studying martial arts, and zen philosophy, because they had nothing better to do with their time, because they had the peasants doing all their work for them. When the gun came, the Shogun dispensed with the need for sword and spear-wielding footsoldiers. Just like in Europe. These Samurai were really more of a liability to central power, than an asset. As long as he had them glued to the idea of tradition, he could keep them captivated. But that would only last so long. It was amazing that they preserved that as long as they did.

      OF COURSE - the "concept" was revived in Imperial Japan, in the 20th century. As a means of propaganda, to get the Japanese people on-board with the fascist expansion of Japan's projection of power in the Pacific and Asia. It was also very convenient to motivate the soldiers to fight with an extreme frenzy of self-sacrifice and obedience, and even to get substandard pilots to use suicide-attack tactics when they were desperate, and they had more surplus equipment, and had lost most of their best pilots towards the end of the war.

      But this is VERY much the same as some jackass American tobacco-chewing punk from Tennesee who wears boots (made in China) and drives a pickup truck, and watches NASCAR, and listens to country music, and calls himself a "Cowboy", and MAYBE rode a horse a couple of times in his life. We all love the idea of "rugged individualism" in this country, don't we? (but few of us "rugged individualists" would actually be "down" with Teddy Roosevelt's ideals. . . ).

      At some point, the obsolete cultural legends of the past become nothing more than caricatured lifestyle stereotypes - betraying how completely empty and bankrupt, and devoid of identity our present culture is.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    10. Re:Huzzah! by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      Samurai isn't the right model for obligation to society at large. But what is?

      I don't recognize any obligations I have to society at large. As long as my fist isn't impacting your nose, I shouldn't be any problem for you. I try to get along and cooperate with and support others when it's in my interest, as should you. I avoid and boycott bad behavior on the part of others, as should you. I don't think any more should be expected of either of us.

      People who don't acknowledge any obligation to not fuck over the public are a problem. It sounds like you acknowledge that obligation. People who do work on large projects that could do serious harm to the public if things go wrong have a higher level of obligation.

      On another note, believe me when I tell you that if your fist even comes close to my nose, it will quickly become a problem for you.

  4. when will we ever learn by wickerprints · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The right thing to do is not necessarily the profitable or expedient thing to do.

    To quote Richard Feynman, "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." Engineering must NEVER have its integrity compromised by issues of money, politics, law, marketing, religion, bureaucracy, or superstition. History repeatedly teaches this to us and yet we still obstinately refuse to learn. And the result is that people are injured or killed.

    1. Re:when will we ever learn by giorgist · · Score: 3

      Always relevant

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlVDGmjz7eM

    2. Re:when will we ever learn by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think that Feynman, while he has a nice point, is really far too optimistic in saying that we 'refuse to learn'. There are, certainly, examples of engineering fuckups caused by genuine failures of understanding or lack of information; but there is also the common instance where the 'we' making the decision knows full well that they won't be the people who get injured or killed(or even subjected to civil or criminal liability) and so make the perfectly value-rational decision to go ahead and do it.

      There are ignorance problems and there are malice problems(and, hovering somewhere between the two, there are the gamblers who take on risks that turn out to go badly)...

    3. Re:when will we ever learn by lennier1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Better safety measures to protect their million/billion dollar assets are very much in their interest.

    4. Re:when will we ever learn by AmiMoJo · · Score: 4, Informative

      Better safety measures to protect their million/billion dollar assets are very much in their interest.

      Two reasons why it is not:

      1. Profits are higher 99% of the time, and when something goes wrong it wasn't their fault (big tsunami, rouge operator mistake etc). Ultimately someone has to decide to spend money on safety, and chances are that person won't be to blame if there is an accident but will get a bonus if the share price goes up so there is little incentive for them to chose the less profitable option.

      2. The majority of the cost of an accident is born by the government anyway. The cost of insuring nuclear installations would make them uneconomical so the government has to do it. I don't have a figure for Japan to hand by in the UK the required insurance is £140m per site and in the US it is $10bn for the entire industry. Fukushima has already cost orders of magnitude more than that, and while TEPCO will eventually pick up some of that cost the majority is being met by the government.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    5. Re:when will we ever learn by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      rouge operator

      You mean a communitst saboteur?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    6. Re:when will we ever learn by TapeCutter · · Score: 5, Insightful

      or even subjected to civil or criminal liability

      No, unlike software engineers, real engineers are legally accountable (at least in the west). If you sign off on a doggy bridge design and the bridge falls down, it will be shown (by other engineers) that you failed in your due dilligence, you will go to jail, you will never hold another engineering position on a western project. You will get sued in civil court, not just by the victims but also by the insurance companies that will have to pay to clean up your mess and build a new bridge.

      Politicians have nowhere near this level of accountability. If they are warned about (say) levees but ignore the problem for decades. When they inevetibly break at the hieght of a king tide, it's called a "natural disaster", "a freak occurence" or if they're really nailed to the wall, "aging infrastructue".

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    7. Re:when will we ever learn by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 2

      Software engineers at least in my country are also liable, just like regular engineers. In fact they are regular engineers. Software developers not so much.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    8. Re:when will we ever learn by LordLucless · · Score: 2

      If you sign off on a doggy bridge design and the bridge falls down

      The poor little pooches :(

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    9. Re:when will we ever learn by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      rouge operator

      You mean a communitst saboteur?

      Or a cross-dressing spy.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    10. Re:when will we ever learn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No - it's a make-up artist.

    11. Re:when will we ever learn by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      True, I should of used scare quotes to indicate that a lot of people with the HR title of "software engineer" are not engineers at all, they're software developers.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    12. Re:when will we ever learn by Megane · · Score: 1

      rouge operator mistake

      I'll bet he was red in the face after that mistake!

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    13. Re:when will we ever learn by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      The first and most important engineering principle I learned - informally - was Murphy's Law.

      It really should be taught as a formal discipline in all engineering schools, along with methods to assess and prioritize possible modes of failure and their consequences.

    14. Re:when will we ever learn by Solandri · · Score: 2

      No, unlike software engineers, real engineers are legally accountable (at least in the west)

      In a way, that's part of the problem. Too much emphasis on punishing failure, not enough on rewarding success. That philosophy works well when the failure mode is commonplace. If you design a plane and it can't fly, you can't sell it. The failure forces you to redesign it until it can fly.

      But in the case of rare failures (plane crashes, nuclear accidents, bridge collapses, etc), it's not an adequate motivator for making good decisions. 99% of people who dangerously cut corners are never chastised for it because it never results in a failure. The unlucky 1% are the only ones who get the negative feedback. OTOH, most of those who did the right thing and cut corners were never recognized for their foresight and due diligence. In fact, a good many of them were probably disciplined for wasting money compared to the guy who did cut corners. Rather than receiving positive feedback for doing the right thing, they receive negative feedback.

      It's the same reason we're dumping billions of dollars into security theater at airports. A dozen people hijack some planes and fly them into buildings killing thousands. Consequently, the organizations in charge of safeguarding air travel vow never to let that happen again and waste oodles of money on ultimately ineffective countermeasures against a terrorist tactic which will probably never be attempted again. Meanwhile, the alert border guard who spotted someone behaving oddly and stopped the millennium bomber gets a few headlines and fades from memory within a week. We've had two major incidents where intrusive airport security checks clearly failed (shoe bomber and underwear bomber), and one major incident where behavioral profiling succeeded. Yet most of the money is being spent on even more intrusive security checks, rather than enhanced behavioral profiling training.

    15. Re:when will we ever learn by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      There is a phrase, charming in its expressive brevity and loathsome in its application, that was popularized in American financial services fraud circles during their most recent heyday:

      "I'll be gone."

      As you say, real engineers are on the hook for their designs. However, the engineer in TFA died in 1986(and quite possibly retired before then). Had he done the wrong thing, he would have avoided inconvenience then and been worm food before it turned out to be a problem.

      More broadly, of course, there is the problem that, if one engineer won't sign off on something, HQ has a certain incentive to find one who will. If anything, the fact that the engineer takes the heat for signing off on a bad design increases that incentive. Go engineer shopping until you find somebody optimistic enough to tell you that the project is Just Dandy, or at least is unlikely to fail before you and he are safely out of the business...

    16. Re:when will we ever learn by jc42 · · Score: 1

      Software engineers at least in my country are also liable, just like regular engineers. In fact they are regular engineers. Software developers not so much.

      Of course, software "engineers" typically face some barriers that don't exist in older fields of engineering. Can you imagine a civil engineer designing a bridge, and being told that all of the specs for the low-level parts are "proprietary" trade secrets that aren't available. He'd have to design using steel, concrete, and other materials without being allowed to specify their exact properties. And he'd be liable for the bridge's structural soundness despite this secrecy. Civil engineers long ago made sure that they had available all the data on the materials they used.

      But with software, we consider it normal that the low-level stuff (the OS, device drivers, runtime libraries, etc.) are binary "blobs" whose details and exact capabilities are intentionally hidden by the vendor. The software builders aren't permitted access to the details of these things that they must use. But the software builders are considered responsible for "bugs" nonetheless.

      Actually, this situation is much of why software developers work only on a "time and materials" basis, since without reliable knowledge of the required tools' and materials' characteristics, it's not possible to even make estimates of development time. We know that all sorts of things will be buggy, because the code uses library or OS features that aren't properly documented and can't be examined. But we can't know beforehand how the various "materials" will behave when called by our code.

      It is somewhat interesting to see the ongoing criticism of software developers not being "real engineers", especially from management that insists on using closed, proprietary platforms. This situation can be summarized as "We aren't about to pay for real engineering, but we'll criticize the developers for not doing real engineering. There's a lot of cynicism in software circles because of this.

      There is the prospect that, as more and more of our infrastructure comes to depend on the growing software component, this situation will change, and we'll be able to require the low-level information that real engineering requires. We are rapidly reaching the point where people's lives do depend on software. Your next car will almost certain contain one or more computers, whose failure could very well leave you dead. This is how we got the needed information available in other fields of engineering. "You want me to guarantee that bridge's safety? Very well; you'll make sure that I have the exact specs for all the materials. And if some component fails under use, you'll very well sue the manufacturer for fraud, not me. And you'll pay for inspections and maintenance that I specify, or you've violated our contract."

      But software is far from such a situation these days. It's mostly shoddy, because the builders are required to make it shoddy, by intentionally keeping them ignorant of the required details of most of the low-level materials.

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
  5. Civil Engineers by tapspace · · Score: 2

    As a computer engineer, I am always a little jealous of the "all in a days work" attitude of good civil engineers. This is a bit of a puff piece, but the unfortunate fact is, we, as engineers, often can't or at least don't anticipate all possible problems down the line. This is an amazing story of success, but it just underscores the fact that this is exception, not the rule. Regardless, technology keeps marching and we can only hope to get better and better, despite governments' inadequacies.

    1. Re:Civil Engineers by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 3, Informative

      I wouldn't say its the exception. After all it not news when bridges don't fall down, or last longer than expected or [insert positive outcome here]. Its only news when something goes wrong. The bulk of our engineering works fine not only in design conditions, but well in many cases a little "off design".

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    2. Re:Civil Engineers by tapspace · · Score: 1

      No, I think we often fail at worst case scenarios, from the titanic to chernobyl.

  6. Social Contracts by MrKaos · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Too often, in corporations, we see that it is up to the individual making sacrifices to their career to make a company fulfil it's social contract to operate ethically to make profit.

    I wonder if TEPCO will attempt to claim credit for something they didn't want to do.

    --
    My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    1. Re:Social Contracts by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Funny

      We at TEPCO are proud to retroactively congratulate any and all peons whose thankless personal sacrifices turned out to have been in our best interest. We would like to take a moment to encourage future sacrifices by employees on behalf of TEPCO.

      While not everyone will have the honor of insisting on sound engineering at vulnerable nuclear facilities, we are sure that all of you can find a way to squeeze in some unpaid overtime or not seek reimbursement of job related expenses.

    2. Re:Social Contracts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      what's so sad about the whole fukushima mess and this article, is that the meltdown wasn't even caused by the tsunami - unit 1 (at least) was already melting down, out of control, and venting radioactive xenon, iodine and caesium before the tsunami even hit. the earthquake itself was enough to shear the reactor coolant pipes. even if the diesel generators weren't wiped out, the plant would have suffered the exact same fate.

      but for all the apologists saying plants in the usa are safe, i wonder what they'll do when an earthquake knocks out cooling for a plant that's nearby themselves or their family. probably run for the hills i assume - any nuclear plant that's not 100% passively safe (that is, every plant on the face of the earth as of right now) should never have been built. then again, who cares what engineer's think about failsafes.

      but we had to go with a reactor that could breed bomb-grade plutonium, instead of a passively safe plan like a thorium reactor. look where it's got us.

    3. Re:Social Contracts by Kyusaku+Natsume · · Score: 1

      Even if Fukushima's Daiichis Unit 1 was already damaged by the quake (I haven't found any reference for this, the closest is the manual shutdown of the emergency cooling system at march 11 2011, 15:03), the accident recovery was severely hampered by the tsunami. If the emergency generators had survived, the accident at Fukushima Daiichi would have been a Ievel 3 or 4 accident at worst.

      --
      Mexico: 100% conservative's America now!
    4. Re:Social Contracts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      look harder - here's just one article: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/the-explosive-truth-behind-fukushimas-meltdown-2338819.html

      "a radiation alarm went off about a mile from the plant at 3.29pm, before the tsunami hit." - that's simple enough right there.

      "Someone yelled that we all needed to evacuate. But I was severely alarmed because as I was leaving I was told and I could see that several pipes had cracked open, including what I believe were cold water supply pipes. That would mean that coolant couldn't get to the reactor core."

      "The data that Tepco has made public shows a huge loss of coolant within the first few hours of the earthquake. It can't be accounted for by the loss of electrical power. There was already so much damage to the cooling system that a meltdown was inevitable long before the tsunami came."

      the people that work there, including a safety engineer for over 20 years, thought a meltdown was inevitable as soon as the quake hit. tepco and the iaea have been actively covering this up, as it would call into question the safety of all similarly designed plants.

  7. Malware by humphrm · · Score: 0

    This story includes malware. Happy I have antivirus, and a system that can't run .exe's.

    --
    -- "In order to have power, I must be taken seriously." -Mojo Jojo
    1. Re:Malware by spire3661 · · Score: 0

      Oh my system can run .exes, but only under the yoke of virtualization :)

      --
      Good-bye
    2. Re:Malware by The+Immutable · · Score: 1

      I'm happy that you're happy that you get false positives.

  8. A toast to Mr. Hirai by Tablizer · · Score: 4, Insightful

    They should build a giant statue of Yanosuke Hirai as a reminder. My organization needs one also.

    1. Re:A toast to Mr. Hirai by Bayoudegradeable · · Score: 3, Informative

      Hirai-sama Banzai! (No, no, no, this is not a war chant. It literally means, "Sir (give or take) Hirai, ten thousand generations!" May Hirai be remembered for ten thousand generations, indeed.

      --
      Sig Registration Form 34c_766(a) submitted to Ministry of Signature Management. Approval pending.
    2. Re:A toast to Mr. Hirai by Kyusaku+Natsume · · Score: 1

      A toast to a great engineer, indeed.

      As the submitter, even if the article was several days old, I thought that the story was still relevant, not only in the "feel good" department, but in the sense of a very practical benefit of ethical behavior. This is the "month of safety" in my company, and this story helps to drive home the idea that energy workers are responsible not only of their own safety but also of the community they serve. More so when we work for a state owned company, that makes us public servants too.

      --
      Mexico: 100% conservative's America now!
    3. Re:A toast to Mr. Hirai by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm reasonably certain it's "ten thousand years old", not "ten thousand generations". As in, may he live to be ten thousand years old.
      According to wwwjdic, though, usage these days aren't for the literal meaning - which seems reasonable, not many Chinese emperors around these days.

  9. Corporate Social Responsibility by lkcl · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If you've read Professor Yunus's Book, "Creating a World without Poverty" in which he describes the concept of "Social Business" as an alternative to pathological profit-maximisation, you will fully appreciate his interpretation of "Corporate Social Responsibility" being synonymous with "Corporate Financial *irresponsibility*".

    the damage caused by allowing Corporations to get so out of control at a National (and an International) level should by now be quite obvious, with these kinds of examples such as Fukushima. there is an alternative pathogen which consumes all resources and maximises its own gain to the absolute exclusion of all other considerations: it's called Cancer. Profit-maximising Corporations are a Cancer and should be treated as a disease.

    1. Re:Corporate Social Responsibility by indymike · · Score: 2

      Profit-maximising Corporations are a Cancer and should be treated as a disease. Yes, lets go back to the old system where the king was in charge and everyone else was peasants. Putting all that power in the government clearly resulted in more freedom, higher incomes and safer work environments for her subjects. BTW it doesn't matter if the king is a person, committee or computer. The concentration of power is the problem, not the king.

      --
      -- Mike
    2. Re:Corporate Social Responsibility by bhtooefr · · Score: 1

      Not only that, but the lack of personal accountability.

      Even Adam Smith, the corporatists darling (even though they ignore this part), railed against any form of limited liability.

    3. Re:Corporate Social Responsibility by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Them: Do you believe in God?
      Me: No.
      Them: Then you believe in the Devil!

      An excerpt from my experience as an 11-year, on a playground. Conviction is not reason. Viewing any given political or economic system as comprising two separate, irreconcilable poles - rarely accurate.

    4. Re:Corporate Social Responsibility by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      Did you know that the limited liability corporation is a creation of government, not of private individuals?

      Did you know that before there were LLC's, there were large businesses without the limited liability bonus?

      Don't blame people for using what the government creates to their own benefit. If you disapprove of the LLC, point your anger at its source - the government that created it....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    5. Re:Corporate Social Responsibility by jafac · · Score: 1

      Profit-maximising Corporations are a Cancer and should be treated as a disease.

      There is immense profit to be made in ongoing prevention, diagonsis, and treatment of Cancer. So Cancer is really a good thing. Creates hundreds of thousands of jobs, feeds millions of children.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    6. Re:Corporate Social Responsibility by indymike · · Score: 1

      Actually, the corporate veil existed long before the LLC (which is a specific kind of corporate entity). I believe the first law that established the "limited company" was made in England in 1855.

      The LLC is a structure that allows people to pay taxes on their owner's draw at a personal rate rather than pay corporate income tax and then be taxed again on dividends. The LLC is limited in the number of shareholders it can have. The LLC was designed to make partnerships more practical as partnerships typically had no limited liability (except those new-fangled LLPs that are basically an LLC anyway) The basic idea was this:

      Partnership structure + Corporation's liability protection = LLC

      LLCs make it easier for people to start businesses, simplify taxes and reporting requirements. They are a very good idea, and the limited liability part simply protects owners and employees from personal liability for things like leftover debt when the company goes out of business. The "corporate veil" can be pierced if members (shareholders) intentionally do illegal things or do unethical things like co-mingle personal and company money.

      This whole "corporations are bad because they have limited liability" meme is not interesting. The limited company was invented to allow businesses to fail without taking the owners down with the ship and also to prevent companies from using their owners as an unlimited checking account. Imagine owning 1000 shares of, say Circuit City and having to pay $10,000 to pay your share of Circuit City's liquidation debt. Investors would be limited to the ultra rich, and middle and lower class people would be unwise to invest in stock... because company managers would know that ultimately, any check they wrote would be made good on the backs of the shareholders. I suppose we should go back to the pre-1860s economy where we had debtors prisons (yes, US States had them up until the 1850s) and where a business mistake or a recession could literally result in families being totally destroyed.

      Talking about how having owners not engaged in managing the company (Adam Smith's big concern) is dangerous is much more interesting.

      --
      -- Mike
    7. Re:Corporate Social Responsibility by lkcl · · Score: 1

      Profit-maximising Corporations are a Cancer and should be treated as a disease.

      Yes, lets go back to the old system where the king was in charge and everyone else was peasants.

      or, how about using Community-Interest-Companies instead? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Interest_Company

  10. What about the people in the cities? by tp1024 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    While I'm far from disagreeing that nuclear power stations should be as safe as conceivably possible, what about the cities?

    18 Cities were largely or completely destroyed by the tsunami (others merely to some small part). This is where people lived, this is where people died. Where is the scandal, where is the outrage about exposing some 500,000 to the risk of the on-rushing water? Where is the investigation why it could be that almost 20,000 people died?

    There has been so much supposedly outraged talk about Fukushima Daiichi, about how anybody could expose the people to such risks, that it is grotesque that nobody is talking about the risk that was there, that was obvious, that killed people.

    1. Re:What about the people in the cities? by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      I wonder if building a seawall that big around entire cities is feasible, or environmentally sound.

    2. Re:What about the people in the cities? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It would be rejected by the same people it was to protect because what might protect me in the future will block my view and access to the beach today. Why would I want to drive to work everyday looking at an ugly gray wall destroying my self worth when I can see the inspirational sunrise on the ocean instead?

      Can't blame everything on corporations and politicians.

    3. Re:What about the people in the cities? by ultranova · · Score: 1

      There has been so much supposedly outraged talk about Fukushima Daiichi, about how anybody could expose the people to such risks, that it is grotesque that nobody is talking about the risk that was there, that was obvious, that killed people.

      Those killed by a tsunami don't make for good propaganda for anti-nuclear lobby.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    4. Re:What about the people in the cities? by tp1024 · · Score: 1

      It is certainly much more environmentally sound than letting 20 million tons of debris be washed into the sea. Feasibility is not an issue at all. Just look at the piles of debris still on land that were piled up in a matter of months to make any sense of the chaos at all. Those are much larger in their volume than the walls that are needed.

      Or compare it to large hydro dams - the material used in a single dam like the Itaipu is enough to protect dozens of cities. (This dam is 8km long and 200m high. It's more than ten times higher and thicker than a seawall would need to be.)

    5. Re:What about the people in the cities? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They had them, they just weren't tall enough. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-zfCBCq-8I

  11. logical conclusion by spineboy · · Score: 5, Informative

    Interesting argument, but it relies on a logical fallacy that implies our wealth is derived from being free, and not from being a growing industrialized nation. China might be an argument against your supposition.

      Other thought - while our country was "free" there were horrors, like rivers catching on fire from accumulated waste, and working situations like "the Jungle" by Upton Sinclair.

    Our wealth is beng polarized by the new Oil Barrons, and wasteful wars, etc.

    --
    ..........FULL STOP.
    1. Re:logical conclusion by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Interesting argument, but it relies on a logical fallacy that implies our wealth is derived from being free, and not from being a growing industrialized nation.

      - there is no logical fallacy, the wealth in USA was increased specifically because the country was free from government regulations and various taxes.

      Out of 37 richest self-made people in USA, 27 were born prior to 1850. Only 3 were born in the 20th century - Bill Gates, Warren Buffet and Sam Walton.

      1870 to 1913 time period increased overall wealth of all the people in USA comparatively more than any time before or after. This was done without most of what is called 'government' today, including most departments, agencies, income taxes, money printing (inflation), regulations, etc.

      Over the 19th century the value of the USD went up by 100%, prices were falling throughout the century while competition was growing. The real middle class (small business owners and professionals) were created in that century. Many in the US mistakenly think of the 1950s as the time when the middle class was created, but that is absolutely false. That wasn't the time of middle class, it was time of lower class being in a position of relative monopoly on production, while other countries were in a post-war destruction and rebuilding period, USA didn't suffer destruction of any infrastructure. Of-course as the productive output grew, so did the government and it was taking on more and more powers and taking away more and more liberties.

      Eventually they destroyed the money completely, defaulted on it in 1971 and investment capital started moving out, which is the consequence of people with investment capital not willing to see it being destroyed by the government created inflation.

      Inflation hurts the lower classes the most, as they can't really shift their income and assets from dollar denominated into something else, like commodities or other currencies and businesses across the world.

      Have you ever asked yourself this question: why are Americans NOT welcome in any of the foreign banks and for example why are they NOT allowed to invest into Myanmar's economy?

      It's not because Myanmar is against it or foreign banks are against it in principle, it's because it is impossible to deal with Americans because of US federal government.

      In fact Patriot Act became one of the biggest nails in the coffin of US citizens trying to diversify their investments out of USA (which everybody should do - diversify out of their own country, but especially those, whose country is actively destroying their own currency and economy).

      As a side note Patriot Act successfully prevents any new investment businesses from appearing that can compete with the likes of JPM and GS, handing all of the potential investors only to the government approved 'investment' firms (which they are not).

      Investors move their savings, investments, businesses out of USA and many European countries for a reason - the reason is that how abusive those regimes are and how much of their work/time/money/nerves is stolen from individual businessmen in those places.

      Freedom is the absolute necessity for a thriving market economy, without freedom there is no market economy, and other types of economies cannot create and efficiently distribute anywhere near as much wealth as free market economies have shown to be able to.

      China might be an argument against your supposition.

      - China is the argument that proves my position.

      Of-course China was a completely totalitarian dictatorship only 50 years ago, but now it is so free, that most businesses find it to be much easier to do business in China (with all the other problems that the country presents) than anywhere else in the world, and relatively low salaries are really not the main reason to go there.

      The real reason is of-course much less regulations and much lower taxes. China doesn't have the ponzi scheme of SS, Medicare, it's not real

    2. Re:logical conclusion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Out of 37 richest self-made people in USA, 27 were born prior to 1850. Only 3 were born in the 20th century - Bill Gates, Warren Buffet and Sam Walton.

      Yes, they were called 'robber barons', and I guarantee you if you were born prior to 1850, chances are you'd have had a far more miserable existence than today. Go read a history book, ffs.

  12. History by sparkeyjames · · Score: 1

    If you do not learn from history you are doomed to repeat it's failures. Hirai new this
    after he examined this historical tsunami data. Good on him for prevailing.

  13. Cost vs Saving by justthinkit · · Score: 1

    Has anyone figured out what a big wall around fukushima would have cost, and compared that to the loss (many incalculable) from not having said wall? I'm thinking a 1,000 to 1 payback...

    --
    I come here for the love
    1. Re:Cost vs Saving by Kyusaku+Natsume · · Score: 1

      According to Worldnuclear.org, the price for the new seawalls and tsunami/quake countermeasures at Hamaoka NPS, more or less similar in size to Fukushima Daiichi, is US$1.7 Billion. That would have been chump change to TEPCO, the largest utility in Japan.

      --
      Mexico: 100% conservative's America now!
  14. Sadly, people don't like to pay taxes... by Kyusaku+Natsume · · Score: 1

    ...and most government officers rarely are good public servants.

    Many cities had seawalls. There were several places that survived the tsunami. The seawalls coupled with the tsunami alerts bought thousands, maybe millions enough time to evacuate, but, since people had to run uphill, this meant that the elderly were unable to evacuate. This is the reason that caused that a very high percentage of elderly people -even for japanese standards- died in the tsunami. They make the bulk of casualties. Is easier to harden a small place than to try to protect thousands of kilometers of coast. Still, there is a nice story about the small city of Fudai in Iitate Prefecture that survived the tsunami:.
    How one village defied the tsunami

    Long story short, a very long and expensive project to protect the small city, "waste of taxes" in the view of critics, but that saved the whole town in the end. People went to pay their respects to the grave of the city's mayor that pushed for the seawall, Mr. Kotaku Wamura. We can say that good politicians coupled with good engineers and a society able and willing to pay taxes saves lives.

    --
    Mexico: 100% conservative's America now!
    1. Re:Sadly, people don't like to pay taxes... by tp1024 · · Score: 1

      I know that most cities were protected by seawalls after the 1896/1933 tsunamies and I had also heard about Fudai on the longnow blog, but not about other villages/towns/cities (I realize those terms have very differnt meanings throughout the world).

      Since I guess that you are Japanese (brilliant guess, I know), can you say something about the general Japanese perception of the earthquake? Here in Germany it has become perfectly acceptable to refer to the earthquake and tsunami simply by saying Fukushima, without even mentioning that whole cities were destroyed. A recent talk show on TV (admittedly about nuclear power) introduced the topic by stating there was an earthquake and a "heavy tsunami" in Japan, while showing the exploding reactor buildings - not even mentioning or showing the destruction and casualties of the tsunami or the fact that a coastline as long as the distance from Hamburg to Munich was devastated (basically all the way from north to south of Germany).

      I stopped reading a popular German online magazine (Telepolis) altogether after one of their articles on march 13th 2011 compared the then-official death toll of about 1000 people to the (inflated) figure of 200,000 in the Haiti earthquake. Talking down the severity of the earthquake and tsunami. I was shouted down in the forum for daring to mention that several cities had basically vanished, saying that I was merely "trying to distract from the nuclear power plant".

    2. Re:Sadly, people don't like to pay taxes... by Kyusaku+Natsume · · Score: 1

      Hello, I'm not japanese, actually, I'm from western Mexico, but I have visited Japan several times and deeply love the country and their people. I had to cancel my mid march 2011 trip to Japan for obvious reasons, but visited the country in august-september 2011. In general, they were more concerned with the people that lost their homes and how to support them, the lack of electricity than with the nuclear power plants. Not to say that they didn't cared about them, but they were more concerned with the most pressing matters, and the nuclear scare damaged severely their tourist industry and they didn't wanted to talk about it. The closest thing to "worry" about nuclear power plants was a old lady asking me if we had nuclear power plants in Mexico.

      About the radiation scare, I didn't care since I live in a high city, and the radiation in Japan is far lower than in my town even after the accident. I'm planning to visit Northeastern Japan with my younger brother and several friends next summer. People there still needs support and the countryside is simple breathtaking with its beauty. I'm surprised by the german reaction in relation to their own nuclear power plants, they need to be decommissioned, but not in the hasty way Merkel's government is doing it and not by replacing them with more coal power plants. On the plus side, is impressive how solar and wind electricity generation is growing in your country.

      Like ultranova said, "Those killed by a tsunami don't make for good propaganda for anti-nuclear lobby." I compare the german media focus with Fukushima Daiichi with the absurd focus that the media in other countries make about Nazi Germany or, in my case, with the mexican war on drugs. Actually, the safest city in my country is Mexico City, but you wouldn't know that if you see tv news. Sadly, is true that most of the countryside in northern Mexico is off limits due to lawlessness but most of our beaches are not more dangerous than the beaches of any caribbean country.

      --
      Mexico: 100% conservative's America now!
  15. China is capitalist by mangu · · Score: 1

    it relies on a logical fallacy that implies our wealth is derived from being free, and not from being a growing industrialized nation. China might be an argument against your supposition.

    China was piss-poor until they adopted a free economy system.

    The fallacy is on you, when you consider all the industrialization plans they implemented in communist countries, hoping they would provide wealth. The end result? Communism is no more, except in Cuba and North Korea.

  16. Stuxnet computer worm killed Fukushima by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The reason only Fukushima NPP was destroyed is because only Fukushima had the Stuxnet computer worm infection in Japan. That is, because only Fukushima was doing plutonium production in Japan and the axis of New York - Tel Aviv wanted to prevent that, just like they wanted to prevent Iran's programme. Japan started to produce and stockpile plutonium as a preparation for rapid nuclear weapon production, after the USA denied it exports of the F-22 Raptor super-fighter jet, throwing her fodder to the commies of DPRK, Russia and mainland China.