Slashdot Mirror
Chevy Volt To Resume Production One Week Early Following Record Sales
surewouldoutlaw writes "On the heels of the news that the Chevy Volt had a record month, selling 2,289 units in March, the Detroit-Hamtramck plant where the car is made will be resuming production of the car one week early, reducing a five-week shutdown to just four weeks, the United Auto Workers union said Tuesday. The shutdown had been put in place to re-align supply with demand. Volt workers have also begun to lash out at Republican presidential candidates' criticisms of the car: 'They're attacking our car to get at the President...But our car is going to change the way America does business. It's a breath of fresh air.'"
If GM can get the price of these things down below $30K, they will put ALL gas models out to pasture. Imagine, you can do up to 40 miles of your short hop driving on all electric but still have the range of gasoline (unlike cars like the Nissan Leaf).
How does it cost more, other than the fact you get a charging station installed? This reminds me of all the naysaying about Priuses and how quickly their battery banks were supposed to fail. They are not failing.
The problem is that it isn't the Volt, it is that having an American car maker on the label makes it not good enough. Had the same car had a "H" logo on it, or perhaps a three pointed star, people would be buying this vehicle left and right. However because it is from a US automaker, it is perceived as crap.
It's a breath of fresh air, until all the electric plants burning coal have to ramp up production of electricity to meet the demand of all these tailpipe diversion cars.
One big smokestack is easier to regulate (and replace with something cleaner eventually) than a million tailpipes.
Drill baby drill - on Mars
Still much more efficient than all of those cars burning gasoline. The central plant is more efficient, and has the benefit of being able to transition away to alternative generation means (nuclear/wind/tidal/solar/solar thermal/....(gap).... fusion) as they become more viable. This also cuts down on refuelling infrastructure - fewer gasoline tankers on the roads etc.
Baby steps, for a culture that is firmly entrenched in gasoline and other fossil fuels.
Alternatively, those Volts may be charged off the grid entirely (or with minimal grid load) - I have seen house installations where the car is charged up from solar PV installed on the house (running to battery banks to provide overnight charging capability).
selling 2,289 units in March
Before everyone starts celebrating, keep in mind that some of the more popular gas car models out there average 40,000-60,000 units a month in sales. And the Prius hybrid sold about 30,000 units last month.
What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
it's perceived as a poor value because it takes longer than the life of a normal car to gain back the premium price you paid.
Well, as long as gas prices stay static during that same period...which I sure as shit wouldn't put any money on.
Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
The volt and it's twin the Opel Ampera began sales in February and has become a big seller there, which is not surprising given how much denser and closer European cities are to each other (taking advantage of the volt's optimum range), not to mention the higher gas prices which make it more affordable.
MSRP: $31,645
Source: http://www.chevrolet.com/volt-electric-car/
Want a sig like mine? Join ACM's SigSig today!
Exactly.
My sister called me a few weeks ago. She works 3 days a week as a nurse working 12 hour shifts at a facility about 60 miles from her house. She has a vehicle that gets about 20mpg and is in great shape. More than that, it is 100% paid for. She wanted to know my opinion on getting a new car.
So even if she had a car that was able to get 40mpg, her gas consumption would go from 9 gallons a week down to 4 gallons at best. 5 gallons at $5 a gallon is $25 a week or $100 a month. A new car payment would be better than $250 a month.
I told her as long as her current car was safe and dependable, don't go buy a new car to "save money".
Since electric cars are still more than $20,000 more than conventional vehicles, plus you are asking tax payers, many who make less money than you to subsidize an additional $10,000 or more of your auto purchase. that does not seem like much of a bargain to me. Batteries have to be replaced every 5 years. You are not really doing this to save money.
All of the extra nasty non-green things that goes into manufacturing your lightweight car, motors and batteries PLUS using electrical current generated by coal burning plants. All you have done is moved WHERE the environment is polluted at from your exhaust pipe, to someplace else. You are not really saving the environment either.
vi +
That's after a "possible" $7500 tax credit. Actual MSRP is $39,145... and that's a starting price.
I have a hard time understanding why people continually crap on GM about the Volt. It's a very novel approach to the hybrid, offering significantly more electric-only range than other hybrids without the range anxiety of something like a Nissan Leaf. As for pricing; yes, it's expensive, but it's also fledgling technology. Electric-only automakers like Fisker and Tesla talk big but have little to show for all the boasting. The practical issues facing electric-only vehicles are still quite daunting.
I also don't understand the conservative backlash against this car. Here we have an American corporation trying to respond to market demand and a changing world by actually innovating. They didn't just slap together a half-assed Prius knockoff. They actually went for something new, but still practical.
The nonsense I hear repeated time and again is that the US government somehow forced this on GM. Automakers don't just pull cars out of their asses. Years of planning go into a car before the public even knows they're in development. The Volt concept was unveiled in 2007, well before they turned to the government for a bailout.
Interestingly enough, in my part of the country I've already seen a number of Volts, less than 10 but still more than the lone Nissan Leaf I encountered recently. I find it interesting given that I live in a region I'd say easily favors foreign automakers. So I found it surprising to hear that the Volt wasn't doing well. Of course it doesn't help you've got people on both sides of the aisle dumping on this car.
The car really isn't all that "high tech" once you get past the electric drive train, though. Most of the features that it comes with can be had on a Chevy Cruze that costs roughly half the price if you leave out the tax rebates.
Your Civic was $6,300 new? Also the MPG on electricity is infinite so you can't compare the two vehicles based on MPG alone. Oh and I call shenanigans on 50MPG for a 07 Civic, best reported numbers at fueleconomy.gov is 40 and that's for someone with 90% highway use (fueleconomy.gov is full of hypermilers so achieving 25% better fuel economy than the best reported number is highly, highly suspicious)
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Since this car will burn exactly ZERO gas for 80% of vehical use, it gtes FAR better gas mileage then your car.
SUre, if you tkae a trip to the full extent of 375 miles and average out the MPG for JUST THAT TRIP, it gets the same as your alleged 50MPG civic.
But if you extend it to all the trips you will make, its a different number.
If my wife had one of these, it would almost never burn gas because she generally doesn't go further the 12 miles during her dauily routine.
The question is: How much gas will you burn in a year?
Last year I drove about 5000 miles in 25 mile chucks(just over 12 miles each way to work). For those drives, I wouldn't have burned any gas.
I drove 8000 total.
So if I had a volt, I would have used gas for 3000 miles* Which would have been 85 gallons of gas at 35MPG**
So I drove 8000 miles, and bought 85 gallons of gas.
just under 100MPG by the end of the year.
Obviously if you are driving 100 miles a day to work, your use would be different, but I am a pretty average driver as far as vehicle use.
*actually less, because of a lot of other short trips besides work.
** Volt is 35/40 I really should use the 40 because all the extended driving would be highway.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
That may very well be true, but since when do we measure benefit to society by only looking at what's cheapest?
Not educating our children would be cheaper too, should we close all schools to balance our budgets? Should we close all fire departments to save a few bucks in the short term?
Why do intelligent people make the argument that trusting the market, and the "invisible hand" will always have the best outcome? It's as if people have replaced (or augmented) their trust in God with this idea of "the market is always right". Surely this is as far from a scientific argument as one could get?
-- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
So sell her car that's "in great shape" and use the money to buy another one with better mileage (diesel if she can get it). Why get a car payment?
You can easily get a car in *great* condition (only a couple of years old) for very reasonable money here in the UK that will do 50-60mpg (40-50 US mpg) - we do have better and more mature diesels though. Still, I'd be surprised if she couldn't find a really good second hand car that she could buy outright that does better than 20 mpg.
If you're paying sticker price for a car, you're getting ripped off regardless.
This space intentionally left blank
Include sales tax
Yes, because other vehicles are exempt from sales tax. /rolls eyes
--Jeremy
Jesus was a liberal
Accord to forbes:
"Only 160 of the March sales total of 2,289 were fleet orders."
i make more than the average nurse and i can't afford to pay $40k cash for a car. i'm saving my money for a house (a liiiiiiittle bit more important).
http://www1.salary.com/registered-nurse-Salary.html
insensitive clod overlords obligatory xkcd car analogy russian reversals whoosh pedant fanbois ftfy in 3...2...1..PROFIT
Most of the charging would be done at home. Which means before 8am and after 6pm. The peak hours for electricity consumption are in the middle of the day (when the sun is shining and factories are running). Also, not sure where you get your 25% transmission loss number. Wikipedia had it at ~6.5%. You are just trying to spread FUD.
The ability of the GOP primary to generate bile is amazing. If you had told me a year ago that the GOP field would pile abuse on an American made car that is (fairly or not) a poster child for American innovation, and it turns out is also a success competing against imports, I would have told you that was crazy. But there it is. Not exactly the Party of Ideas.
If the current administration doesn't sign another illegal executive order, this time banning fracking.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
- government funding. I don't like paying for stuff I'm not using. Hopefully it's just a temporary subsidy to jumpstart GM's hybrid production, not a permanen form of corporate welfare.
No... its a subsidy to get you to use electrons produced in the US (mostly with coal produced in the US) instead of oil produced by countries who hate us.
Exactly.
My sister called me a few weeks ago. She works 3 days a week as a nurse working 12 hour shifts at a facility about 60 miles from her house. She has a vehicle that gets about 20mpg and is in great shape. More than that, it is 100% paid for. She wanted to know my opinion on getting a new car.
So even if she had a car that was able to get 40mpg, her gas consumption would go from 9 gallons a week down to 4 gallons at best. 5 gallons at $5 a gallon is $25 a week or $100 a month. A new car payment would be better than $250 a month.
I told her as long as her current car was safe and dependable, don't go buy a new car to "save money".
Valid, if you're out to save money in the short term you're not going to do it. However, you neglect to factor in things like maintenance. Don't forget the fact that electric vehicles are typically lacking in things like air filters, oil filters, etc. Maintenance for the late EV-1 was "rotate the tires and top off the wiper fluid". How much would you save if you didn't have to do all of the maintenance related to combustion engines?
Since electric cars are still more than $20,000 more than conventional vehicles, plus you are asking tax payers, many who make less money than you to subsidize an additional $10,000 or more of your auto purchase. that does not seem like much of a bargain to me. Batteries have to be replaced every 5 years. You are not really doing this to save money.
Again, agreed. If you do not have a lot of money to throw around you're not going to save money.
All of the extra nasty non-green things that goes into manufacturing your lightweight car, motors and batteries PLUS using electrical current generated by coal burning plants. All you have done is moved WHERE the environment is polluted at from your exhaust pipe, to someplace else. You are not really saving the environment either.
Yes, that's true. You move the "where" of the pollution. But this is more important than you think.
Let's say a thousand vehicles emit the same amount of pollution as one coal-fired power plant. Which do you think is easier to install and maintain filters on? One coal power plant, or a thousand individual vehicles that may or may not be as well maintained as you'd like?
Even with the "environmental damage" that occurs from mining and the like, it's still all centralized in certain places. That makes containing and reducing that damage much, much easier.
Random Thoughts From A Diseased Mind (Not For Dummies)
Look, first generations of new technology are never about "saving money". Do you really think people bought the first iPhone because they could "save money"? or the first laptops? Or the first computers?
The people willing to pay the premium for a promising technology are the ones that help create the market that allows the price to eventually come down. To belittle those that live on the cutting edge, that are "first adopters", is really short-sighted and frankly stupid. Without them, we'd never get affordable tech for the rest of us.
That said, your sister doesn't sound like a "first adopter" type person, nor does her situation sound like a good situation that can be helped by buying a first generation eletric car like the Volt.
But for people who want to support these emerging technologies, put their money where their mouth is about being greener and more efficient, then it's a decent, even smart, purchase.
(and for the record, the pollution created by a coal plant generating the energy required to charge an electric car is less than the pollution created by burning gas in a non-electric car. And batteries last longer than five years, and are getting better every year. And tax incentives for new technologies help them get off the ground, and are a smart investment for the future).
- Spryguy
There are three kinds of people in this world: those that can count and those that can't
We're talking about the price of this car, not the price of other cars.
Here's an article where Edmunds said they paid $49,000 out-the-door for a Volt
http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/volt/2011/long-term-test-2011-chevrolet-volt.html
They may have given away some leverage, but they clearly did not get the car for $30,000 as some have claimed.
Why do people keep arguing "My commute is not well suited for an electric car, so electric cars are a waste of money".
Since your sister's round trip commute far exceeds the range of any current electric car (unless she has a charge station at work), she's better off with a hybrid, since even if she bought a Volt, it would be acting as a gas-electric hybrid for most of her commute.
The Prius is reported to get around 50mpg on the highway (consumer reports' milage in their highway test was 55mpg).
So, using 50mpg and assuming she only drives 60 miles each way to work 3 times each week, your sister's monthly gas bill at $5/gal would be:
360 mi * (52 weeks/year) / (12 months/year) / (50 miles/gal) * (5 dollars/gallon) = $156
Versus 20mpg:
360 mi * (52 weeks/year) / (12 months/year) / (50 miles/gal) * (5 dollars/gallon) = $390
Or a net savings of $234/month
You didn't mention what car she drives currently. If it's got a $10,000 trade-in value, and if she qualifies for 4% financing, her monthly payment on a $23,000 Prius (price ignores tax+title fees) would be around $238/month so the car would effectively be free after the fuel savings. If her current car is older and has only $5000 trade-in value, then her payment would be around $330 so she'd be paying $100/month after the fuel savings (which may still be a good deal to get a nice new car for only $100/month)
Well, when obama took office gas was below $2 a gallon...and nobody ever said that would happen again only 12 months before that when it was over $3.
Well shit. Gas was $0.30 a gallon when Kennedy and Johnson were in office, then look what happened when the Republicans came to power.
Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
No experience with a Volt but I have a six year old Hybrid Toyota Highlander. No battery replacement indicated anytime soon. I would pay a premium for an electric or hybrid electric car just for the driving experience -- instant torque on demand, no engine noise at low speeds or stopped. It really feels old fashioned when I drive my non-hybrid car. You are right, you don't save money replacing a used car with a new one, but unless you want to drive a patched up junker you have to replace it sometime. By the way, the Highlander is a real hot rod and I've had a few 'Vettes and Camaros in my day. Did I say Instant Torque and a CVT transmission?
Why do you hate America?
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
plus you are asking tax payers, many who make less money than you to subsidize an additional $10,000 or more of your auto purchase. that does not seem like much of a bargain to me.
The trillion dollars we spent in Iraq and Afghanistan doesn't seem like much of a bargain to me either. I know which one I'd prefer to my tax dollars being spent on..
Don't get me wrong on this, because I think all the variety in the market is great, and I love having choices, and I was really looking forward to buying a Prius and doing fun stuff with it. (This was before Volt was available.) But:
I did recently buy a car, and did the math on a few, and gasoline prices have to go really high to break even. One issue, really a good thing, is that efficient gasoline cars are already past the TCO node where the cost of gasoline = cost of rest. They've started down the path of diminishing returns for fuel efficiency. That's one reason the cost premium of a hybrid or electric hurts so much.
In my case, Prius beats Matrix when gasoline averages something like $7/gal, over the life of the car. I didn't expect that to happen, so I picked Matrix.
You may be right, we may get to $7/gal, even beyond, but here's why I dodn't expect gasoline to get a whole lot more expensive than $5/gal (2009$):
There are a number of fuel technologies waiting in the wings when gasoline gets that expensive, which the oil companies will resurrect and improve. There are a lot of neat, new fuel technologies, but don't forget that there are also old standbys, industrially proven processes, for fuel synthesis from coal and natural gas. They've been more expensive than drilling, and they're capital-intensive, so oil companies aren't going to build plants on a whim, but they're not outrageously expensive.
That's in the medium term. In the short term, sure, oil is volatile, so there will be price spikes.
In the long term, I'm looking forward to all kinds of neat synthetic fuel technologies based on all kinds of energy sources. An estimate of $3/gal + CO2 capture for electrolytic synthetic fuel, while it may be optimistic, shows the scale of the possibilities for post-fossil liquid fuel. We don't really know how much industrial atmospheric CO2 capture will cost, yet, though.
Anyway, the point being, fuel may never get much more expensive, despite how things look. Hybrids and electrics have a bright future, but it lies along the path of overall cost reduction.
I fully expect my next car to be a turbine-electric, like the old Capstone demo. Microturbines and electric drivetrains will get cheaper. There's no fundamental reason I know why they can't be cheaper than piston cars; piston engines are just, for now, very well established, finely tuned, efficient technology.
The Volt's gas mileage for my wife would be about infinity
B But the gas-equivalent mileage is far less than infinity because your power company charges more than zero for electric energy. How many kWh of electric energy does it take to charge the Volt for 20 miles of driving? How much does this energy cost? How many gallons does the Volt burn in 20 miles of extended range driving? How much does this energy cost? From these I can compute miles per dollar and a gas-equivalent mileage for electric driving.
However, you neglect to factor in things like maintenance. Don't forget the fact that electric vehicles are typically lacking in things like air filters, oil filters, etc. Maintenance for the late EV-1 was "rotate the tires and top off the wiper fluid". How much would you save if you didn't have to do all of the maintenance related to combustion engines?
That's a fair point, but since the general discussion here is about the Volt you do still have to account for maintenance of an ICE. Presumably it will require less maintenance than if it were the primary engine, but it's still there.
...here. What seems to be missing from all the discussions is that the Volt/Ampera is a very good, comfortable and well-equipped 'European style' car first. Its smooth and elegant power delivery is actually way more useable in daily traffic than an IC with much better figures on paper. Granted, it may not be for everyone for various reasons, but if the electric range suits your daily commute, your energy costs are half and your driving comfort double those of a clattering, noisy, smelly and soot spewing diesel that needs 4 jerky gear changes to reach 100km/h. It isn't cheap, but the price is roughly the same as a similarly equipped same old same old lease-slut BMW 320d ED.
I was sceptical about GM, but it turns that they have done their most decent job in years. Give it time; it's qualities will become evident as more people discover it irl and more versions appear.
Street creds: 528i, 525i, 944S2, Z3 2.8, 645Ci.
I'm not a coward by any name.
No one is saving money by paying sticker $ for ANY car let alone a NEW car. I am about to buy a used Subaru to use as a commuter car. By the time I kill this one I will be ready for a used Volt. Only the Volt version that qualifies for the white California Clean Vehicles sticker. They are making too many car pool lanes around this state.
For every benefit you receive a tax is levied. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
Gasoline takes between 4kWh and 7.5kWh per gallon to refine. Electric cars can go between 16 (on the low end) and 41 miles (on the high end) on that same amount of electricity. Unless your replacing a gasoline car that gets better that 40mpg you are NOT just moving the pollution. Replacing a car that gets 16mph and you are completely eliminating the pollution from he petroleum refining process and burning at the vehicle, but also REDUCING the pollution generated by the local power plant as your using fewer total kWh. Of course the answer is "it depends" but for the average case you argument is basically pro-oil nonsense..
EV TCO is already favorable compared to your average compact
That's true, but the Volt has the unfortunate position of having a couple extra thousand dollars worth of complexity added so that it can run on both gas or electricity.
The sad fact is that the only people who a volt makes sense for are the same people who could do alright with an electric conversion that might cost them $10,000 - and they could buy a $11,000 Versa to park in the driveway for those "long trips" that theoretically kill the electric car . Then they could take $15000 and bury it in the backyard and still have money leftover vs. buying a Volt.
I'm intrigued by cars like the all-electric Leaf - but until battery prices come down (or until they offer a lower-range version) they are wayyyyy overpriced. My wife only needs to go 15 miles per day total. She currently drives a Camry. She puts less than 5000 miles on the car each year. With low mileage like that, it would take forever to pay for the Volt/Prius difference - but a safe electric car with maybe 40 miles of range would be ideal if they could price it close to other (gasoline) cars in it's class. Hauling around hundreds of miles worth of battery for her 6-mile commute is silly.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Only if sales are monotonically increasing. I think a many folks were put off by that whole 'catching fire' issue a few months back, so now memories have faded maybe things are getting back to normal.
It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
Batteries have to be replaced every 5 years.
I haven't checked your other claims, but this is blatantly not true. The Chevy Volt battery is designed for 10 years, and under warranty for 8 years.
The oldest Prius's are now 15 years old and mostly haven't had their batteries exchanged.
Texas has nothing to worry about. Until we actually start building more nuclear plants, the energy for all those electric cars you want to see on the roads will come from coal and natural gas. The EPA just introduced some more rules to favor natural gas over coal, and guess which state produces the most natural gas. (HInt: Its capital is Austin.)
The Saudis don't have to worry that much, either. Only 60% of petroleum is used for transportation, and much of that is for aviation. They'd be more worried about their pets in DC failing to block the Keystone pipeline.
(and for the record, the pollution created by a coal plant generating the energy required to charge an electric car is less than the pollution created by burning gas in a non-electric car. And batteries last longer than five years, and are getting better every year. And tax incentives for new technologies help them get off the ground, and are a smart investment for the future).
Another point in favor of those who want to mention the "pollution" issues with gasoline vs. electric vehicles is that in the production of gasoline, almost as much energy is consumed to produce a gallon of gasoline as is made available from the refined gasoline itself. In the past, such energy was consumed from raw petroleum or by-products (like tars and heavy organic molecules also found in crude oil), but many of the current refineries simply use electricity to run their boilers and equipment as such energy sources are ideal for fixed physical facilities like a petroleum refinery. The refineries can usually find more profitable uses for those other organic molecules or even find "cracking" catalysts to break that down into Octane and other more valuable substances. Electricity at industrial rates usually is quite cheap from most power utilities too.
In other words, even if you are burning gasoline, a coal-powered electricity generating facility has likely been used to produce the energy you are using in your automobile anyway. Trying to compare the efficiency of using that electricity to make gasoline or charge up a battery can be very tricky, and I'm not entirely sure direct "apples to apples" comparisons can be applied even though it is tried. Most current "efficiency" measurements usually ignore completely this use of fossil fuels in terms of how it impacts pollution and energy efficiency calculations.
FACT: The Volt requires DAILY recharging. According to published numbers, it cost about $4 per charge. That is $120+ a month in electric cost.
FACT: If you take your example, 1250 miles a month means that the vehicle will be running on the gas engine for the great majority of the time. Remember, the Volt only has an average of 25 miles per charge. Given that the Volt gas engine has a miserable 24 mpg (claimed, ~20 real), you will be spending more on gas for the same drive (40+% more).
So in the end, for the same conditions you presented you will get an average of $7,120 of electric cost ($4 x 365 x 5) on top of $10K+ for gas (remember, the Volt is a gas guzzler). Adding the $40K+ price tag, that 5 year TCO is no less than $57,120 (ignoring any other maintenance cost) .... a $20K difference.
Meh, depends really. Depends on the make/model, how new it is, and at what time of the year including demand and/or a waiting list. Worst case scenario happened with the Honda Odyssey (a popular minivan) in that many paid over MSRP in a bidding war.
Anyways, I'm with you. Paying MSRP is like adding insult to injury. Buying a new car is not a fun experience despite what the commercials illustrate. I really loathed the whole process. Once you settle on a price with your sales rep, then you're off to the next gantlet, the finance department. Those guys are really tricky. One guy looked and acted like Weyoun from ST-DS9. They try and bowl you over with numbers, warranty, and all sorts of shit. One guy was shoving paper so fast across the desk in a hurry that I actually told him to slow the fuck down and review each line item and how they add up. In the end though, if they don't get you one way, they'll make up for the loss in another. It's too bad Saturn folded. Their cars were so so in quality, but the buying process was fairly up front and honest.
Check out Truecar.com. I've actually made printouts and presented them to my Toyota sales rep. I must have saved at least a few hundred buck all said and done.
Life is not for the lazy.
> and they could buy a $11,000 Versa to park in the driveway for those "long trips" that theoretically kill the electric car
Or even better?
free/subsidized rental cars of a similar model with zero paperwork.
IE, Toyota signs a deal with Budget to stock a number of (what is the Leaf, the Matrix?) cars as normal rental models. If a Leaf owner comes in, they simply hand in their keys and take a set for the rental model.
Yes? Would this do it?