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US CompSci Enrollment Up For 4th Year Running
dcblogs writes "Interest in computer science continues to grow among undergrad students, who pushed enrollments up nearly 10% in the 2011-12 academic year, according to the Computing Research Association (CRA) of enrollment and graduation rates at Ph.D.-granting universities. This marks the fourth straight year of increases. Enrollments might have been even higher if not for enrollment caps at some schools that don't have enough faculty, equipment or classrooms to meet demand. Enrollments increased 10% last year as well, but overall enrollments remain below the peak reached during the dot.com bubble. Around 2002, each school had a department with an average enrollment of about 400 students; by 2006-07, that enrollment average had declined to about 200. Average enrollments per department are now nearing 300, according to the survey."
Get back to us after the fourth semester and let us know what % of the enrolled did not switch majors or drop out.
and how meany people are better off voc / tech school type training then 4 years + of CS?
To many people are going to CS and not learning the skills needed to do real IT work.
Maybe that is because Computer Science isn't IT work?
I know I'm not meant to reply to this, but please, if you are going to do this, *please* fix the grammar. Sentence two you no sense.
Tell that to people who actually hire CS grads right out of college.
I can't speak for all US universities but it would seem Information Systems and Technology degrees are suited toward practical programming jobs.. I don't really see IS*T majors doing research for comp sci specific fields but that's not to say they don't exist. In my program, I learned databases, java, c#, vb.net, and the agile development process which will basically get you a job in the US as a front-end or mid-tier developer.
The problem is most people want to come to IST because they don't want to program but find out that they should have just majored in business or MIS. This is only for certain schools however.. I have met some programmers who were better at coding than comp sci people because they have a better sense of scope...
Which brings me back to your point... Comp Sci from my experience gears you toward PHD or masters programs where you will be doing a lot of theoretical work. They don't teach them mandatory database classes or networking which is very important in today's coding world... they also don't teach you anything about how coding fits into the business world. That's not to say you couldn't get any programming job you want.. But honestly, if you live in the US, it doesn't really matter for most companies if you got a comp sci or IST degree so long as you can prove that you know what you are doing in the domain of what they need you for. It's basically just a formality now, they check you off whether or not you got a degree... I think they frown on Votech schools over conventional bachelor's programs, but if you can prove you're proficient, they will give you the chance regardless.
I think that's his point. Lots of people want IT-type jobs, and go for a CS degree because they mistakenly leave off the word "science" when they read "computer science". "Oh a degree in computers! That's what I want to do". You can get an associates learning networking and programming and the like, CS will make you do a lot more theory that isn't really the goal of many students in the program. They just don't understand the difference, or that several options exist depending on goals and interests.
We really do a terrible job in the US of explaining to students the possibilities and letting them go with the best option. It's easier to funnel people into pet programs I suppose, than give any real academic advising.
It seems to me that Google, Apple, Microsoft, Facebook et al are currently so dominant in creating 2 - 3 year consumer market-trends, then collapsing them, and pushing yet another nouveau 2 - 3 year trend into the marketplace, that new computing science graduates will have a very, very difficult time "making their mark" in the computing world. I feel that the world of computing, a few years ago, was more open to individual CompSci artisans creating seriously interesting things, and these things growing wings if people liked what they created. Today, if it doesn't get pushed by AppGoogFaceMicrosoft, hardly anyone notices that it exists, or even possible. Good luck to our new CompSci graduates. The world you will be thrown into when you graduate won't be a garden of roses...
Why did the chicken cross the road? Because Elon Musk put an AI chip in its head.
The train/educate ratio needs to tilt far over to the "train" side, IT is expected to do drone work, not invent or think.
The education topics need to remain more or less the same, some comprehension of "big O" and scalability problems and algorithm analysis remain important.
IT needs some biz and accounting classes... mandatory requirements. Intro to accounting is not terribly useful for a computer scientist.
IT needs more liberal arts. Public speaking, mandatory for presentations. A computer scientist only needs pub speaking as an oral defense at the PHD and teaching classes. A foreign language (aka BA degree) seems highly wise for IT as your job will probably go to India or China very soon, so if you learn hindi or mandarin perhaps you can transfer into a project mismanagement or perhaps analyst position...
IT needs to learn how to master a piece of software and/or a system. The software selected to master doesn't really matter, whats important is that some people, shockingly, don't know how to explore and fully learn a piece of software unless that skill is specifically taught to them. Like many, maybe most, computer people, I learned that around age 6, but there's some who need the formal class to learn it at age 20.
IT needs database theory, a computer scientist only needs codd normal forms etc if s/he is going into the DB theory field (frankly, unlikely).
Very little of a CS curriculum would be a total waste of time for a IT guy and vice versa, but a lot of mandatory and nice to have positions will swap.
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
It sounds like you have limited knowledge about what schools offer. I have a CS degree and I was taught databases, c++, python, java, c#, and a number of different development processes. Additionally, i was also taught compilers, parsing, formal proofs, algorithms, graphs, and a bunch of other stuff that is only used tangentially where I work.
The MIS majors where the ones who were taught just databases and a few Microsoft languages, like you.
I do believe there is no standard, and you have to look for a school teaching what you want to learn. :)
someone in India is not only learning it better, but willing to work for cheaper
That's not my experience of Indian programmers. Well, both parts of your statement are correct: someone in India is learning it better, and also someone in India is willing to work for cheaper. They are not usually the same person, however.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
I think there are plenty of interesting jobs out there, it's just that finding the boring ones are so much easier. I live in a midwestern town of less than 150K people. I've worked here for 17 years (2 different jobs) both doing embedded work, both small companies. There are also a few large engineering firms in the area, almost everyone goes to work for them because they are always hiring (and firing).
Most people (especially newbies) that work for the large firms end up mainly doing (my idea of) grunt work: testing, database coding and documentation. With my employers everyone codes. And, in the embedded world, code is (almost) always interesting IMHO. And there are sooo many places that need embedded developers. Any manufacturer of any electronic device needs embedded developers -- and we are surrounded by electronic devices. Yes, most of that stuff is not made in America, but enough still is that it provides plenty of jobs even here in the states. Also, embedded code now-a-days is pretty much the same as coding for the desktop. It's not like you'll being doing everything in assembly. Most use Linux or a Windows variant (CE, XP embedded, etc).
I guess my point is: Don't just apply to the big engineering/computer firms that everyone applies to. Look around in the nooks and crannies for software jobs. You'll have better odds of having much more job security, flexibility and satisfaction. And, the big firms are always your safety net if you can't find a job somewhere interesting.
Stupider like a fox! - H.S.
You are living in a subjective reality, a prison of your own construction. If you choose, the "hardly anyone" who you mention, can be everyone who matters.
Think back to 20 years ago when Microsoft looked like the main barrier to progress. The market looked just as un-enterable to people living then too. And their discouraging words were met by fogies who spoke of IBM, saying the 1990s kids didn't know how good they had it. But of course things actually were happening; they just weren't in the headlines.
You're right that there is a large market being played by AppGoogFaceMicrosoft and that little of interest is happening there, but doing uninteresting things is always how it is when you're trying to sell things to the mainstream where the big money is. This says nothing about things that are possible to work on and advance, except the sales volume itself.
This isn't even a software phenomenon. Most creative endeavors are like this. Why learn to play music when so many people are giving their money to Nickelback? Why learn automotive design when people are just going to buy Chevy Silverados? Why work on solar power when people will just write monthly checks to their local utility who burns coal? Why carve furniture with an axe, when people will go to Ikea? Why brew beer in a nation who spends so much on Bud Light? Because you love doing things, that's why, and because even if most people buy lame shit, you're still not alone.
"Believe me!" -- Donald Trump
I think that over the years, I have just become impervious to these *shock* forum posts. They don't get any reaction out of me any more.
Bad grammar and bad spelling (minor typos aside) will always grate on me though.
Reality check here. The market for lawyers in the US is oversaturated, meaning that most of the ones who get employed out of school are doing work that used to be paralegal grunt work with paralegal pay. Contrast that with me or any software developer I know with any skills from this decade: 2-3 unsolicited job offers a week. In most US markets companies are fighting tooth and nail over every single Java or .Net developer they can (not to bash on any other platforms, these are just the most common). I have heard the stories about unemployed programmers, but I have yet to meet one, and I find it hard to believe they are all that common when my inbox is constantly flooded with emails from recruiters, and there is really nothing special about me.
If you have a bunch of talented, smart workers around with skills, there's no shortage of things to work on. The economy isn't a zero-sum game.
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
The recruiters I have worked with are paid a commission when they fill a position, not the number of candidates they generate. Like the parent poster, I too am inundated with calls from recruiters. I have also interviewed a lot of people for various open positions on my team. In my experience the inexperienced programmers don't get the job because they lack buzzwords, but that they fail to sell the skills they do have. I have interviewed many candidates who say "never heard of that" when asked about a technology in the job description. Some basic research and preparation would help the candidate to see how they can spin their experience to cover any deficiencies. I am more impressed when a candidate says "haven't done that, but I understand the concepts, and let me tell you about something similar in my background." Sometimes you can draw out that diamond-in-the-rough candidate, but if the interviewer has to dig too far, it is just easier to move on to the next applicant.
Looking at job postings for some big companies (few defense contractors, couple semiconductor companies), they're hiring a lot of software engineers. I keep thinking of the Mythical Man Month and how it is quite possible these companies think that throwing more programmers at a particular job will fix their problem faster. But this might not be true; there may legitimately be more software projects cropping up. It's tough when you are a graduating CE/ CS (dual) student and you want to do hardware, but your whole resume is software (because your school needed you on software) and your job out of school is software (because all these big companies need you on software). It's good for comp sci kids because the jobs are irrefutably out there. Computer engineers have an issue where they might be trying to specialize in hardware but employers see "computer" and think software. This is also happening to CS students; I know a PHD student who is extremely good at low-level (chip level) and assembly work, and does high level programming as more of a side thing. Anyways, a good bachelors CS program will have a ton of (practical?) programming. Most CS classes at my school have programming assignments. Not all classes use practical languages (heard of Oz?), but they all require large amounts of coding. The "theory" part is discrete mathematics, algorithms , and programming language theory. Don't think for a second a CS degree isn't "practical". Of all the science degrees, it will probably open the most doors.
Computer Science departments (atleast the one I went to) don't teach "Cisco Networking".. they teach "Networking"... They don't teach "Windows", they teach "Operating Systems".. You might get an intro to programming in $language, but they'll choose any language for any particular course and figure you'll figure it out..
If you're bright enough to do well in competent CS program, you can pick of the specifics of $solution you happen to be working on and you'll have an edge on keeping up in the long term versus those MIS kids..
When you go for any IT job, the number one requirement these days is a degree in Computer Science or equivalent experience.
There. FTFY.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
What does CS enrollment have to do with IT? Presumably, you're in a CS program because you want to be a researcher or developer, not a server or network admin.
At the moment, its damn near impossible to find quality system/kernel/embedded developers in Silicon Valley. Maybe the application side is different, but I sort of doubt it based on how much the big guys have been hiring recently.
Bad advice. Nursing is one of those other fields where the rosy ideal is a far cry from the harsh reality. Quite a few nurses drop out disillusioned, or burn out.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...