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Canada Post Files Copyright Lawsuit Over Crowd-sourced Postal Code Database
An anonymous reader writes "Canada Post has filed a copyright infringement lawsuit against Geolytica, which operates GeoCoder.ca,
a website that provides several geocoding services including free access to a crowd-sourced, compiled database of Canadian postal codes. Canada Post argues that it is the exclusive copyright holder of all
Canadian postal codes and claims that GeoCoder appropriated the database and made unauthorized reproductions. GeoCoder compiled the postal code database by using crowdsourcing techniques, without
any reliance on Canada Post's database, and argues that there can be no copyright on postal codes and thus no infringement (PDF)."
In Socialist Canada, Post Office stamps you!
If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
As much as I think the idea of copyrighting post codes is stupid, surely the source of the data doesn't matter. That is like taking a picture, looking at each pixel, manually selecting a similar color pixel and creating a new image, then claiming that you own copyright on this new image. Postcodes should be as uncopyrightable as information about the boundary between counties.
IANAL (but in true Slashdot style I'll offer a legal opinion anyways), but the defence's reponse lays a smackdown on a number of fronts, probably the easiest of which is the statute of limitations (3 years). The database has been operating since 2004, so I think CPC is probably SOL.
What operations do they fulfill anyways?
Right, they STRIKE!
I'd say that postal codes aren't "works of authorship" entitled to copyright protection. It looks like the canadian lawyer is making a similar argument from paragraph 23 on.
Oh, wait ... I am a lawyer ...
AFAIK only creative expressions are copyrightable and therefore there is no copyright protection for things like postal codes which involve no creativity whatsoever. In the EU we have database rights, which protects databases which required a substantial investment to create even if they are not creative. Maybe Canada has something similar, but in that case a crowdsourced database should not violate that protection as there is not copying involved.
Sounds like either the lawsuit or the article is meritless.
My first reaction was: It's a Dangerous path, once "facts" can become copyrighted. Then I (gasp) RTFA.
There are two claims made by the article:
1) Canada Post argues that it is the exclusive copyright holder of all Canadian postal codes
If the issue is #1, then this is truly asinine, in my opinion. I am no scholar of copyright law, especially how it is applied in Canada. This claim may or may not be true. However, I could find no evidence the the Canada Post made such a claim. I may not have searched through the links provided with enough thoroughness. But, could it be that the author of the article either assumed it, or simply made it up? Does anyone have support for this claim, which to me seems absurd?
2) Canada Post says GeoCoder appropriated the database and made unauthorized reproductions.
If the issue is #2 They claim that there were "unauthorized reproductions" of their database made. This could be a legitimate copyright infringement. Again. I see no evidence that Canada Post makes this claim either.
In fact, I see no mention of "copyright" other than in the article. There is just this post: ... which states that Canada Post is suing for lost revenue.
http://geocoder.ca/?sued=1
Now, these claims may in fact be true, and I don't necessarily doubt them. I would however like to see solid links to sources, for instance the text of the lawsuit. It's difficult to figure out what is fact and what is speculation.
Canada Post hasn't sought to stop these directories from including the postal codes, so I don't believe it should seek to stop an online publication either.
In other respects, Canada Post has shown itself to be a fairly forward thinker for a government operation. To me, the fact that Geolytica has created their website is proof that there is a market opportunity there that Canada Post has overlooked. Canada Post could; and I dare say should, simply out compete Geolytica by creating a more comprehensive and easier to use web page of its own. Canada Post might not be able to compete with the US listings Geolytica also has, but I think there is much room for improvement on the look and feel of the web page itself. (How many run of the mill users even know the difference between HTML, XML and JSON let alone *care*? geocoder.ca uses google maps, but it doesn't look as if they took any design ideas from Google)
I need a wheelchair van for my son. Help me get the word out. https://www.gofundme.com/wheelchair-van-for-jj
A postal code is a short numeric sequence that makes it easier for the postman to deliver a package/letter to the right building/apartment. It is really not much different, functionally speaking, from a telephone number, an email address or a room number. Are telephone numbers copyrighted? Don't think so. Are email addresses copyrighted? I've never heard of such a thing. Copyrighting room numbers in a building? Not even technically possible. And who pays for postal codes to be created/used in the first place? The Canadian taxpayer. That should make postal codes a "public good", owned collectively by the taxpaying Canadian public. Creating a free listing of postal codes, where anyone can look up postal codes, is a convenience, and a service rendered to the public. And a good one too, since it is "free", and nobody profits from it. Besides, if search engines can index the entire f___ing Internet, without anyone crying "Oy! That's my copyrighted webpage you are indexing!", how can a simple "Canadian postal code lookup function" be a breach of copyright? If the article is correct, the site in question didn't even copy the Postal Services postal code database. It built its own, from user contributions. I really don't see how "copyright" even figures into this case...
Why did the chicken cross the road? Because Elon Musk put an AI chip in its head.
A guy creates a site that makes it easier for customer's to use their service, why the hell are they suing him?
This blatant and unlawful activity must stop. Every day millions of post items are sent with Postal Codes illegally and unlawfully printed on them by people not under the employ or direction of the Postal Service.
We must start a campaign to get people to stop placing these postal codes on their post so that the Postal Service can rightfully keep their Postal Code System all to themselves.
If postcodes are copyright, then everyone who uses one should be paying a license fee, right?
Just point this out, then everyone stops using the postcode, and see how quickly they come around when they have to employ many, many more sorting staff for each post office.
From personal experience, Canada Post increased ten-fold their database licensing costs. My company tried to negotiate, and the best CP proposed is some rebates for the first two years, so of course we had to drop them. So, Geocoder, good luck!
I think that there is only one solution to a - stupid (IMO) - claim like this.
Stop using postalcodes when posting letters to/in Canada.
I - for one - wouldn't like to be using copyrighted information on letters I'm sending.
Mabe Canada Post would think twice before claiming copyright on information that benefits them.
assume for a second that they have a valid copyright claim; I mean they created it, and, utltimately, it is only of significance to us if we are using their services. i mean who adds a postal code to an envelope they plan to deliver by hand?
how often have you seen postal codes being distributed? every advertisement (print, televeision, radio, etc), contact info page of every website, every form you fill out with personal information...how many instances is that? thousands? more likely millions? Now how many have been sued for publication of copyrighted information?
None.
Now that someone is directly monetizing that information, Canada Post wants to play the copyright right card, but the horse has left the barn. For better or worse, they have to show that they've always vigourously defended their copyrights in the past, otherwise it's fair game like Aspirin or Kleenex. I'm not a fan of that aspect of law, but it is what it is and Canada Post is too late to the copyright game.
Hell, try mailing something by courier and you still need a postal code. That's as direct a competition as you can get; the most immediate example of copyright violation, but I don't think they've ever sued FedEx (Purolator is partially or wholly owned by Canada Post, so I've heard, so maybe they can use postal codes), so going after Geolytica seems a stretch.
When all of your wishes have been granted, many of your dreams will be destroyed - Marilyn Manson
Common law countries are split about this. In the USA, phone numbers cannot be copyrighted, but in Australia, for example, they can.
In the US, this issue was settled in Feist vs. Rural Telephone, which was about copyright in telephone directories. The US Supreme Court ruled that such collections of facts are not copyrightable on constitutional grounds. In Canada, there's Tele-Direct (Publications) Inc. v. American Business Information, Inc, which covers much the same ground. "Labour alone not determinative of originality ... Compilation so obvious, commonplace not meriting copyright protection."
I'm surprised CanadaPost even raised the issue.
If it was only 2 days later, it sure as h*** didn't go via Canada Post.
It's not like anyone uses them all that much any more. The month-long postal strike last summer (and the subsequent month to clear out the backlog) was the final straw for a lot of people.
Let's call it what it is, Anti-Social Media.
... what a bunch of maroons!
Since they think they own it, everyone should stop putting postal codes on the letters they send.
The best part is how the plaintiff claims that their case depends on "Section 63" of the CPC act. There is no section 63!
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-10/
Probably far more useful "operations" than you do
We could do just fine with once-a-week delivery, which would drastically cut both costs and prices, while improving service (look at all the places where there is NO mail delivery because they've been built in the last 2 decades, so you need to go and pick it up at a "community mailbox"). It's not like a letter gets delivered the next day anyway, and they deliver more junk mail and ad mail than real mail.
So - go to 1-day-a-week (or 2 days if you must, sort of like garbage pickup), and re-instate door-to-door service to everyone, while reducing prices.
Let's call it what it is, Anti-Social Media.
If this is found to be the case, then it's not much more of a stretch for the US to argue that GPS co-ordinates are copyrighted and belong to them too.
I will simplify it for you.
Just more government-union greed.
Postal codes are by defacto public information. Just desperate for money Posties want a royalty. Should just say stuff it.
on Canada Post website. What's the problem?
I kinda find it funny that your post is marked funny, but damn if that isn't the truth. I've switched to DHL for my regular mail if it has to be sent. I can send a letter from ontario to northern alberta or the territories for under $2. And it'll get there within 3-5 days. The last time I sent a letter via canada post it took nearly a month. Including the week it sat in edmonton.
Om, nomnomnom...
Is a copyright violation in Canada, because of the postal code?
They are still one of the most economical ways to receive online purchases. Especially the $0.99 shipping included cables from Hong Kong.
And unlike UPS, Fedex, etc. if you aren't home for delivery of a parcel, picking it up at the local pharmacy is a lot more convenient than:
-Going to the depot in the industrial park 45 minutes away before 5PM
-Or allowing them to leave a computer on your front doorstep in the rain while you're at work.
So that more rural areas of Ontario (read: Just about anywhere but Toronto) has to pay significantly more for it's postal service? I'd prefer to leave such fascism to the Americans - they are so good at it after all.
Here, i fixed that for you.
They still rely on city and province as a fall back, right? Seems if they are "copyrighted" then you should send mail without using the postal codes.
Sadly, sending that same cable from Canada to Hong Kong would cost a minimum of $5 by air.
Canada Post is paid by the tax payers. I don't believe anything that is paid by tax payers should be copyrightable, with exception of trademark names, to which could lead to confusion for some people if there were 5 companies named Canada Post for example. Additionally, I don't believe you can file for copyright infringement for a non-profit project / product if they're not damaging your name in any way. And to copyright a 6-digit / character combination is ridiculous. This along with all of those protests to get paid more, just further demands the Canada Post to be eliminated from the federal budget entirely. They have no sense and are just another tax burden for Canadians. Perhaps we could set an example by getting rid of our tax-funded postal service.
The posties around my neck of the woods get kind of testy about mail that doesn't have a postal code on it. Anything that makes it easier to get the right code should be a good thing right?
I mean, what is Canada Post going to do about it? Lock up the codes, keeping them from people? If people don't include the codes, it makes it harder for them to route the mail.
Dumbasses.
Just to clarify the postal strike last year, the postal service was on strike orders to be sure, but they were doing day-long local strikes. That didn't cause any serious problem to anybody other than a delay in your mail by a day or two at most.
After that, the harper government stepped in and said "Either settle this shit, or we will FORCE you to accept THIS agreement."
That agreement was LESS than what Canada Post was already willing to give to the workers. Immediately after that, Canada Post locked out ALL of the workers across the country and stopped negotiating in good faith. After all, they just had to wait and pretend they were listening to the union.
If people have a last straw for anybody, it should be for the Conservatives that ruined any possibility of proper contract negotiations.
Please try to keep in mind, these laws are old, and not being under the reign of a monarch is new. These issues will affect every former UK colony.
It is really not much different, functionally speaking, from a telephone number, an email address or a room number. Are telephone numbers copyrighted? Don't think so. Are email addresses copyrighted? I've never heard of such a thing.
Australia and NZ are still hashing it out, actually.
http://www.baldwins.com/australian-and-new-zealand-copyright-law-for-databases-compilations-and-directories/
And who pays for postal codes to be created/used in the first place? The Canadian taxpayer. That should make postal codes a "public good", owned collectively by the taxpaying Canadian public. Creating a free listing of postal codes, where anyone can look up postal codes, is a convenience, and a service rendered to the public.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_copyright#Canada
"Permission to reproduce Government of Canada works, in part or in whole, and by any means, for personal or public non-commercial purposes, or for cost-recovery purposes, is not required, unless otherwise specified in the material you wish to reproduce."
And a good one too, since it is "free", and nobody profits from it.
The "otherwise specified" part would seem to be the $5000 Canada Post wants to charge for its directory. Which it has the right to do. Statistics Canada also charges for its data, one of the few places where government documents are not free. Why? Because information has value. The Do Not Call List has a trivial price attached to it, and has been exploited to high hell because foreign telemarketers can afford to do it and are not bound by our laws. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Do_Not_Call_List#Criticism
Besides, if search engines can index the entire f___ing Internet, without anyone crying "Oy! That's my copyrighted webpage you are indexing!",
Ok, now you're just starting to look silly and ill informed...
http://searchengineland.com/proposed-uk-law-would-immunize-search-engines-against-copyright-claims-33336
http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/04/08/industry-google-afp-dc-idUSN0728115420070408
http://www.practicalecommerce.com/articles/1457-Search-Engines-Indexing-and-Copyright-Law
http://www.blogstudiolegalefinocchiaro.com/wordpress/?p=258
how can a simple "Canadian postal code lookup function" be a breach of copyright? If the article is correct, the site in question didn't even copy the Postal Services postal code database. It built its own, from user contributions. I really don't see how "copyright" even figures into this case...
It's not the engine, it's the data. Postal codes were *authored*, there is no question about that.
At least not in the US, but I'm pretty sure that applies to Canada also. If they did indeed crowd-source the data, this lawsuit should be DOA.
make imaginary.friends COUNT=100 VISIBLE=false
In Denmark this kind of information is public. In fact, the state even offers an open API to allow geocoding, all to help facilitate digitalization of public information.
Of course, our postal codes are not complicated like in Canada but limited to 4 digits only, but still - information like that, including road ID numbers is available for free.
I like most other posters can not see how postal codes can be copyrighted. After all, it should be in the best interest of PostCanada to get the correct postal code on any letter /package ? And what harm can possibly be done ? And what's next - copyright on the letter "C" for Canada ?
Canada Post must have a lot of weird inefficiencies and idiosyncrasies. It is well known that it is slow, and in my mother's town, which is a border town on the US side, a majority of the US post office boxes are rented by Canadian citizens. It is faster and more convenient for them to travel across the border to get their mail than wait for it to be delivered. But a further oddity is that Canadian citizens mailing letters to another location in Canada post it from the US. It is somehow faster for the letter to be delivered to the border, clear customs, and then make its way through the Canada Post system, than if it started out in the Canada Post system to begin with. The reason behind this I would like to know.
Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
The website http://www.populardata.com was also given a takedown notice. They then followed up with a phone call.
They didn't seem to care the database was crowd sourced and indicated that they believe they own the copyright on ALL POSTAL CODES.
When asked if I was breaking the law by using my postal code to send mail the guy said, "Uhhh... well... no... but putting it in a list is illegal."
The other argument was, "Your database is old and postal codes change all the time. If someone uses your old database [and an incorrect postal code] to send mail it costs us money."
Lame... very lame...
fair use?!
Agreed. UPS and Fedex charge a king's ransom and the pick-up locations are not even reachable by public transit in many cities. The USPS + Canada Post combo for shipments from the States is the only economical way, and in my experience it's not nearly as slow as many are claiming.
H0H 0H0
I can order online from a store in Vancouver on Monday, and have a parcel of my stuff delivered a few thousand km away on Friday, for $5 in shipping. That's totally respectable in my books.
They are probably renting the box office boxes so they can buy things from US companies that don't ship to Canada, or so they can save by brokering the packages themselves.
As to the mail thing, for a while it was cheaper (not sure if it still is) to send packages going cross-Canada (i.e. when they are going far) from USA rather than internally. (Think BC->Ontario vs. Washington State->Ontario). The reason had to do with the fact a) the parcel rates within Canada are updated for price increases more often than international rates to Canada b) USPS was, for a while I think, charging the same rate for packages going anywhere in Canada, whereas within Canada rates were based on zones.
Since copyright means no reproduction without permission then.
OK Canada Post, you can copyright postal codes.
But that means I cannot put them on any mail I send out unless I get permissions for each instance of a unique usage. So expect me to be calling the postmaster general 5 times a day for permission, and that goes for everyone else in Canada.
Bring It On!
I sent out my wedding invitations on Monday night via Canada post (which means they were actually collected Tuesday). Most seem to have arrived Friday (I was visiting family and asked). Granted, these were all within Ontario. I'd expect another day or two for my family in BC to receive theirs.
Not bad for $0.61.
-- Seq
I guess the license to use the code is included in the postage... :)
1) Invent law which says that anything a person writes or says belongs to the first person to claim 'ownership' of it and call that law the Intellectual Property Law or some such thing.
2) Get the law voted into being (or if you are bold enough just say it exists, out there in the ether, in some universal way and hope the judge is sympathetic).
3) Wait for someone to say something you have claimed 'ownership' of - and call the police, wave your arms, scream tearfully at the moon while citing Intellectual Property Law as justification.
4) Get rich; make the other guy poor.
Just because you made a spade out of a piece of wood and tin - even if you were the first to do it - doesn't mean that everybody else should necessarily have to pay you to do the same. IP law, generally, exists solely to make rich people richer and keep rivals down.
Fight it at every turn. Oh, and don't trust lawyers to do that for you. They are part of the system. They will just want to complicate matters in order to submit larger bills.
It is somehow faster for the letter to be delivered to the border, clear customs, and then make its way through the Canada Post system, than if it started out in the Canada Post system to begin with. The reason behind this I would like to know.
A lot of people in BC do it (Point Roberts is a reasonably popular place for that, since the border crossing is not heavily loaded, as people pretty much only come there for that & shopping). When I inquired, I've been told that it's cheaper that way, because the mail is no longer "international". Especially ironic in case of Point Roberts, as they actually have to drive the mail back into Canada to move it to the rest of U.S.
I heard that with maps instead of math tables, putting errors in on purpose to help notice infringement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartography#Cartographic_errors
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
The speed depends on where your mail gets sorted. This last year, the Peterborough Ontario mail was no longer sorted locally, it all goes to Ottawa before coming back to local addresses. In the past, mail to the local region was separated out locally and then delivered, now that all goes to Ottawa. For mail destined for out-of-town, it probably makes no difference. For mail to my neighbours, it adds at least a couple of days to the delivery time.
Sadly, sending that same cable from Canada to Hong Kong would cost a minimum of $5 by air.
if canada is anything like finland it would cost 7 bucks to just send them to your neighbor.
and it's local business that takes the hit. cheap local postages would foster local businesses.
but it's pretty rich to claim ownership of postal numbers. next phase claim ownership of addresses and start asking private parcel companies for a cut.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
CDDB all over again? y/n?
######
Are they suing over a d/l of the DB?
Or over a recompilation of the data?
The former: dumbassery if in violation of their license.
The latter: unpopportable in the USA, in CA? WTFK.
Why is it so hard for governments to see that all this copyright crap is going to keep their countries in recession due to the inability to innovate without being sued?
Um Whoops?
The way I see it, that is the crux of the case.
If it WAS crowd sourced then I don't seen an issue, they are doing their own data collection. If they STOLE the database from which the information is created from (and likely sold and licenced from), then yes, that would be an issue.
Of course how does one "appropriate" a database? Are they claiming they were hacked? Likely it exposes security flaws and unaccountability within Canada Post, as in who as access to the production database, and how could someone copy it and give it away (which is probably what happened if that is the case). It could just be sour grapes that Geocoder is getting at the information from another source. Though realistically I have to say, how good do you think a crowd sourced postal code database is? Makes me wonder... I guess it really depends on how large and regionally diverse that crowd is.
I just went through this with UPS.. Sent my sun glasses to the USA because they broke and are under warranty. Have to pay $25 return shipping which is a lot but OK. The dummies sent the package back to Canada using UPS and I get dinged $40. UPS is a motherfucking scam