Software Engineering Is a Dead-End Career, Says Bloomberg

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Software Engineering Is a Dead-End Career, Says Bloomberg

Posted by Soulskill on Monday April 23, 2012 @07:57AM from the commiserate-with-middle-age-actresses dept.

An anonymous reader sends this quote from an opinion piece at Bloomberg: "Many programmers find that their employability starts to decline at about age 35. Employers dismiss them as either lacking in up-to-date technical skills — such as the latest programming-language fad — or 'not suitable for entry level.' In other words, either underqualified or overqualified. That doesn’t leave much, does it? Statistics show that most software developers are out of the field by age 40. Employers have admitted this in unguarded moments. Craig Barrett, a former chief executive officer of Intel Corp., famously remarked that 'the half-life of an engineer, software or hardware, is only a few years,' while Mark Zuckerberg of Facebook has blurted out that young programmers are superior."

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Nothing new? by marcovje · 2012-04-23 08:01 · Score: 5, Interesting

I did a Masters Chemical Engineer (didn't finish), and a bachelor in CS. In both older students and alumni warned that you should get out of tech jobs and move into management within 10 years after graduation.
The first time I heard that must have been in the 1992-1994 timeframe
1. Re:Nothing new? by Pope · 2012-04-23 08:11 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  Cool, so everyone should be a manager? Then what happens when the true fat is cut in an organization and all the middle managers are laid off?
  
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  It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
2. Re:Nothing new? by mickwd · 2012-04-23 08:12 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  Strange, isn't it?
  If it was surgery, you'd probably pick the surgeon with 20 years experience over the one with a couple of years experience to operate on you.
  If is was a builder you were employing, you'd probably prefer the one with 20 years experience over the younger one to build your house.
  And whatever Zuckerberg says can probably be ignored, because you just know he's the type that, when he's getting on a bit, will be saying that age and experience are what counts.
3. Re:Nothing new? by pixelpusher220 · 2012-04-23 09:26 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  Xerox. My dad was laid off by them in his upper 50s and he fully qualified as a 'middle manager'. In fact Xerox laid off so many people and outsourced so many others that within 5 years had to hire my dad and many others back because the people who actually knew anything were gone in the wave of cuts.
  
  And it has cost them dearly both financially and in reputation.
  
  I specifically of one team that was downsized from 35 to literally 1 person with a few 'off shore' techs to handle support. That didn't end up being very successful.
  
  Long story short, when a CEO/Board who have no long term vested interest (i.e. golden parachutes that kick in after only a few years) their decisions are going to be *very* suspect when it comes to long term knowledge of who to keep and who to get rid of. Because if it kicks you in the ass a year after your parachute opened...what the hell do you really care?
  
  I'm a 42 yr old software engineer/programmer and I know the drill. I'm expensive compared to fresh out of college kid. But I have years of experience they don't have and my employer knows this. Will it save me completely? No, but in no other field can you self teach yourself into the skills you need to have tomorrow. It's that simple. those who go out and learn on their own to keep themselves current will continue to be worth the extra money, those that don't will simply make it easier for those of us who do.
  
  On top of that, did you read today that the University of Florida just killed their ENTIRE Computer Science department? Seriously, it boggles the mind that a school could be so completely clueless. Yet as a programmer, I call it job security, there will be fewer people for an every increasing amount of my jobs. I think the trend recently ticked up but for almost a decade the number of programmers graduating in the US went down every year. You can't fire people when you don't have anyone to hire to fill their spot.
  
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  People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
4. Re:Nothing new? by hairyfeet · 2012-04-23 09:35 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  C++ is how old now? C? Java? Hell even .NET is no spring chicken. Frankly only the "fad language of the week" is gonna actually be very new and if all they care about is fad languages then i doubt its gonna be a good place for long term employment anyway.
  But all the truly impressive programmers I've met, the ones where their code is damned near perfect in its elegance and function, were working in C, C++, or one of the other frankly 'old timer" languages. Sure if your only goal is to generate enough buzz to get bought out? Then the language of the week might be for you, but those working on stuff that really lasts at least from what i have seen are always working in one of the mature languages.
  
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  ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
5. Re:Nothing new? by DaveGod · 2012-04-23 09:42 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  Strange, isn't it?
  If it was surgery, you'd probably pick the surgeon with 20 years experience over the one with a couple of years experience to operate on you.
  If is was a builder you were employing, you'd probably prefer the one with 20 years experience over the younger one to build your house.
  And whatever Zuckerberg says can probably be ignored, because you just know he's the type that, when he's getting on a bit, will be saying that age and experience are what counts.
  In both those examples a person with 20 years experience typically has a managerial role. The builder would be at least a foreman. A surgeon with 20 years experience would be a consultant, probably spending a fraction of his time in theatre and even there doing the trickiest bit and supervising his staff on the rest. His cost gets spread over his staff. To the project, it's worth paying a person twice as much if he can uplift the value of work done by a team of 10 by 20%.
  Additionally, in both those examples the cost of the individual is relatively small compared to the value of the project. Construction might be 1/3 land cost, 1/3 materials and 1/3 labour. Increasing even the total labour costs by 30% only increases the total project cost by 10%. With software, the labour cost must be what, >80%? With the surgeon example, his cost is pretty small relative to the value of his work as far as the customer is concerned and competition is very limited.
6. Re:Nothing new? by DerekLyons · 2012-04-23 09:43 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  If it was surgery, you'd probably pick the surgeon with 20 years experience over the one with a couple of years experience to operate on you.
  If is was a builder you were employing, you'd probably prefer the one with 20 years experience over the younger one to build your house.
  The interesting this is, though you meant to imply the opposite, you actually show why I wouldn't hire a programmer with twenty years experience.
  
  A doctor has ten years of school, and ten years of field experience, and leads a team of professionals. Your builder (unlike the doctor) doesn't do the hands on work anymore; but what I'm hiring is the crew he leads, and the network of subcontractors he's built up, and his contacts down at the local builder's supply... While someone who is still just a programmer after twenty years is someone stuck in a rut doing grunt work. If I hire someone who wants his wages based on his years of experience, I'm going to hire someone who brings something worth those wages to the table. I'm going to hire a supervisor or a manger - not a grunt. Grunts are a dime a dozen.
7. Re:Nothing new? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-23 10:48 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Yes. I was told a similar thing around 15 years ago along with with the dire warning that: "nobody pays you to tinker about".
  Right now I'm 36 and working in a programming job where one of the things I get to do is "tinker about" making my own software tools.
  I'd say warnings from the experts only apply to "programmers" who are focused on climbing some sort of ladder or are generally found wearing a suit most of the time. All the rest of us programmers (washed up or not) are free to do what ever it is we create for ourselves to do.
Explains Software Quality by clonehappy · 2012-04-23 08:04 · Score: 5, Interesting

So, by the time you really know what you're doing, you cost too much and don't "think outside the box" anymore (read: write sloppy ^W innovative code), so they can you.
Really explains a lot about Facebook as well, actually!
1. Re:Explains Software Quality by burne · 2012-04-23 09:06 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  Bloomberg, the same one that predicted that the iPhone would be an utter failure?
  http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aRelVKWbMAv0
  "The iPhone is nothing more than a luxury bauble that will appeal to a few gadget freaks. In terms of its impact on the industry, the iPhone is less relevant."
  America and Europe are confronted with an aging population. In the Netherlands (where I live) there's about 40.000 men in the age-group of 40-45. There are 30.000 in the age-group of 20-25. Assuming that being a good programmer is something a certaint percentage of the population has, there are a lot less younger programmers available. 25%, to be exact. Market mechanisms mean these young whippersnappers will ask for more money, but the product they deliver will not necessarily be more valuable. In ten year times it will be cheaper to hire a bunch of us old farts instead of one of those young bright sparks.
  I'm not sure this works the same for programmers, but /me as a sysadmin has no trouble finding a new job every 1.5-3 years. Experience and insight in what I do gets me higher up the ladder every time for the last 25 years.
I agree with Bloomberg by Anonymous Coward · 2012-04-23 08:05 · Score: 4, Interesting

Unless you are one of the recognized leaders of your field, you become "obsolete" to your employer after about 15 years even if your skills are not. Why keep a stubborn old programmer on board, when you can replace them with a younger less stubborn programmer at lower pay.
It's important to have an alternative career path. For example, I went to college for Computer Science, but have always been interested in computer security.
I took the computer programming skills I learned and put them to use in the computer security field instead.
I don't write code anymore, and I'm ok with that. Instead, I figure out what security issues others created in their code, without even having the source code in front of me.
Unfortunately, at least when I went to college, they never taught secure coding techniques. I had to learn all about that on my own.
Why we can't have nice things. by pla · 2012-04-23 08:19 · Score: 3, Interesting

Mark Zuckerberg of Facebook has blurted out that young programmers are superior.

"Willing to put up with abuse" does not mean "superior", however much employers might like to conflate them.

As I approach the FP's end-of-career age, I find myself far, far more efficient than a decade ago, in not just my coding-for-coding's-sake work, but in my ability to address what the business wants out of my code. The beancounters don't care about skinnability, about what buzzword technologies went into the app, about how fast (beyond a very loose "fast enough") a program runs. They care if it answers their questions, and does so accurately.

Unfortunately, they can't easily see past how much I cost - Yes, at this point in my career, I make in the ballpark of twice as much as an entry level dev. And yes, I do provide that much more value to the company than I did fresh out of college (I'd even go so far as to say I provide far more than merely 2x the ROI, but will stay on the conservative side for now).

Important point to note about the FP... It talks about Intel and Facebook; TFA additionally mentions Microsoft - All companies that do tech for tech's sake, not as a means to satisfy a non-tech-related business need. Your time in Silicon Valley, your chance to strike gold in a startup, your 60 hour weeks and the glares for cutting out early when you need to attend Grandma's funeral, may all end by 40. But your career doesn't need to, as long as you've spent those first 15-20 years picking up the skills that matter outside the tech hubs.
Re:Um, I think some important facts are being igno by t4ng* · 2012-04-23 08:22 · Score: 5, Interesting

Say what? I started programming in the mid '70's. There were already "software engineers" and "computer scientists" back then. Computers were around long before "personal computers" and needed programming.
The only way I get work as a programmer now is as an consultant. It is not because I haven't kept up with tech, languages and tools. Around 10 years old head hunters started telling me it would be easier to find work for for me if I rewrote my resume to hide my true age and years of experience.
The majority of my clients are through referrals, they've never seen me in person and have no idea how old I am.
Re:Not bloody likely by RetiredMidn · 2012-04-23 08:27 · Score: 5, Interesting

Agreed.
I started software development at 22 and I'm turning 58 next month; I've spent a grand total of about 12 months out of work due to layoffs. I haven't been back to school since I got my master's in CS in '87; everything I've learned since has been on the job or on my own time. It's not that hard.
Frankly, it is more difficult to land a new position when competing with younger workers who are freshly trained in current technologies, and who don't have family obligations eroding their work days, but I still bring something to the table, most especially experience that helps prevent making old mistakes new again. At least twice in the last few years, my past experience with assembly helped me resolve issues that had my co-workers scratching their heads even after I explained it to them.
Current expertise: Objective-C (OS X and iOS), C++, and picking up Qt and Ruby. Java is getting a little rusty now. My skills and the language. ;-)
It does help that I love what I do.
We'll find out: I'm 50 and looking for new work by Rene+S.+Hollan · 2012-04-23 08:33 · Score: 4, Interesting

Subject says it all.
Contact me if you want to see my resume.
Interviews have been coming at a steady rate so far, and in one shop I'd be one of the younger people if hired.

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In Liberty, Rene
Software engineering != computer programming by mbaGeek · 2012-04-23 08:35 · Score: 3, Interesting

I think of software engineering as being a higher level funtion than computer programming. a code mokey might get hired as a computer programmer, but then grows into a software engineer...
In his book ("iWoz") - Woz tells a story where "when he was young" he was able to lock himself in a room for a week and come out with a completed project. As he aged he found that he lost that ability/motivation (and he could just pay someone to write the code)
regarding Zuckerberg's comment, that guy who used to run Microsoft (Bill Gates I think) basically said the same thing - i.e. young minds have better/more ideas (read "Breaking Windows" to see when Bill Gates hit that wall).
anyway, the human brain changes as we age - which may not be "fair" but ... ummm, what was I saying...

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It ain't what they call you. It's what you answer to. http://mylyceum.us/
Re:Not bloody likely by helixcode123 · 2012-04-23 08:47 · Score: 4, Interesting

I'm almost 54. Going strong and doing what I love. My wife is 45 and also a software engineer. I had a project end about 9 months ago and had to find a position within 4 weeks. Lots of work, even for a guy my age (Southern California).

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In a band? Use WheresTheGig for free.
Re:Mod parent up! by cayenne8 · 2012-04-23 08:49 · Score: 5, Interesting

But wages progression also in mid and small companies wages progression for technical (not just IT) staff stalls.
That's why you work long enough to get experience, and skills (and hopefully contacts and some people skills along the way)....incorporate yourself, and go contracting.
In that field, experience is EVERYTHING...and you can make a very healthy bill rate.
It is amazing really...how often, how companies will grind their W2's (young ones) into the ground, for nothing, willingly lose them, but pay a major premium for a contractor to come in and do the same thing or fix things, etc.
It isn't just IT, work has changed. The days of getting a long term job for life, especially at ONE company are long, long, long gone.
You have to be adaptable, willing to risk, willing to move/travel to where the jobs are.
There are plenty of jobs out there paying plenty of money if you are good. You just have to be willing to do what it takes to get to them and have them.
People skills and connections will get you a LONG way....if you can back those up with extreme tech skills, you will go even further. It isn't too bad when you can work your bill rate up high enough to work 6-8mos a year, and be able to easily afford to take the rest of the year off....it can be done,and they're plenty of IT folks out there doing it.
You just have to drop out of that old mindset of what a job is...

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Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Re:Not bloody likely by spatley · 2012-04-23 08:58 · Score: 4, Interesting

I started at 30 during dot-com, am well into my 40's now and feel like my opportunities are only beginning. My salary is 4x what I made 10 years ago and I am seeing tsunamis of opportunity. This is a great industry, and a great industry to grow and to work in over the long haul. Don't let anybody tell you different. Put this FUD in your FUD-bucket with all the FUD that Bloomberg spews day after day.
Re:Mod parent up! by turgid · 2012-04-23 09:03 · Score: 4, Interesting

That's what companies are for. Making money.
Here's a radical idea: why does all of that money have to be made for shareholders? Why can't some of it also be for the people doing the work?

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Stick Men
Comment removed by account_deleted · 2012-04-23 14:58 · Score: 4, Interesting

Comment removed based on user account deletion