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Hacking the Law

New submitter sethopia writes "Brooklyn Law School's Incubator and Policy Clinic (BLIP) hosted its first 'Legal Hackathon.' Instead of hacking computer code, attendees — mostly lawyers, law students, coders, and entrepreneurs — used the hacking ethos to devise technologically sophisticated solutions to legal problems. These included attempts to crowdsource mayoral candidacies in New York City and hacking model privacy policies for ISPs."

33 of 115 comments (clear)

  1. SVN for law by dargaud · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Want to hack law ? Then start by by putting the entire code of law in an SVN-like system. Including proposed laws. With traceability of authors, who voted for them, etc... And an associated wiki for comments. And a complete list of cases that used them. This would be invaluable.

    --
    Non-Linux Penguins ?
    1. Re:SVN for law by jimshatt · · Score: 5, Funny

      Can't wait to use 'svn blame'...

    2. Re:SVN for law by ComaVN · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Somalia does this, except they use git.

      --
      Be wary of any facts that confirm your opinion.
    3. Re:SVN for law by MadKeithV · · Score: 2

      Or for the confusion around branches of government.

    4. Re:SVN for law by WrecklessSandwich · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Want to hack law ? Then start by by putting the entire code of law in an SVN-like system. Including proposed laws. With traceability of authors, who voted for them, etc... And an associated wiki for comments. And a complete list of cases that used them. This would be invaluable.

      If we're going that route, the author/voting records should link to a database of campaign contributions as well.

    5. Re:SVN for law by digitig · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Rather than a version control system, I think it would be more useful to put the law into a requirements management system (after all, what is the law but a set of requirements?) That *might* help lawmakers to see if they are complete (cover what is intended to be covered), consistent and measurable. I don't know of any open source requirements management tools though -- at least, not ones that are still maintained. Perhaps requirements management goes against the hacker ethos (which would reduce the open source effort put into such things, although it wouldn't eliminate it completely of course). If requirements management is against the hacker ethos then I suspect that attempts to hack the law won't work very well.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    6. Re:SVN for law by fph+il+quozientatore · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In most countries without common law (I can speak first-hand about Italy and Germany), the laws are an unholy mess, impossible to read, search, and interpret; in most cases you have no hope other than asking a consult to a lawyer.
      You want the same people that spent at least 5 years studying this crap and make their living out of it to work actively to simplify it. It is a great idea, but I do not have any hope of seeing this applied.
      Shirky's law applies here as well: "institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution".

      --
      My first program:

      Hell Segmentation fault

    7. Re:SVN for law by Another,+completely · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But individual lawyers and legal secretaries could make this database their full-time job, in which case it wouldn't be a conflict for them any more. There is already an industry publishing books that list references from the law to cases where it was applied. This would be a natural extension, wouldn't it?

    8. Re:SVN for law by arglebargle_xiv · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Rather than a version control system, I think it would be more useful to put the law into a requirements management system (after all, what is the law but a set of requirements?) That *might* help lawmakers to see if they are complete (cover what is intended to be covered), consistent and measurable.

      If you try and push this, you'll run into serious real-world acceptance problems. In some cases the law is deliberately obtuse, obscure, open to misinterpretation, and so on. It's this way by design, because two various groups couldn't agree on any wording, or they were under pressure to create a law that violates the laws of physics but managed to word it in such a way that it may not, or it's meant to be interpreted in a way that's more or less the opposite of what it says, or a thousand other reasons. The law is not a Turing machine, and never will be. The last thing most politicians or lawyers would want is a comprehensive overview system of the kind that's being proposed in the above posts.

    9. Re:SVN for law by TheDarkMaster · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Exact. In short, many laws are broken by design.

      --
      Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
    10. Re:SVN for law by swalve · · Score: 2

      Doesn't Lexis-Nexis do this? And most state's "legis" websites?

    11. Re:SVN for law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      ... and yet no one will care. OH dont get me wrong. Some will. But the vast majority punch their straight ticket D or R and are *very* happy with that choice. Their team 'won'/'lost'.

      They will even go as far as to take on whatever attributes their 'team' has to defend it. Even though if you sit them down and talk about it they really want the other 'team'. A perfect example of this effect is when Howard Stern went to Harlem and asked people what they thought about Obama and used John McCain's talking points. It is not about issues. It is about charm and who can get the most votes and 'my team won!!!'.

      Also we have 'hackers' of law. We call them lawyers they are 'doctors' of it.

      Version control can be manipulated (and lawyers are good at that). You designate a point man to commit everything. That way you can hide what you do anyway. You make all of your changes then commit... Think of a bad development shop with the worst practices where everyone is out to do the best for their agenda. That is what you have in most state legislatures and on the federal level.

      The whole version control is predicated that these guys 'will follow the rules'. Let me make this clear, they make the rules and are above them (most of the time, and at least feel they are). Its not 'right' but that does not change the fact of what is going on.

      This post
      http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2808955&cid=39792575
      and this one sum up what I am saying
      http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2808955&cid=39792671

    12. Re:SVN for law by ffflala · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Want to hack law ? Then start by by putting the entire code of law in an SVN-like system. Including proposed laws. With traceability of authors, who voted for them, etc... And an associated wiki for comments. And a complete list of cases that used them. This would be invaluable.

      Law seems to be the social equivalent of TFA: most people will base their entire opinions on the summary, and never bother to actually read the thing itself.

      The functional equivalent of an SVN-system already exists and has for decades. What you're describing are very basic components of what is called "legislative history." Bill authors, vote counts, comments made both on the floor of the legislature and in committee: these things (and more) can all be found in the Congressional Record for federal material, and every state legislature has a similar record. Lists of cases that refer to particular laws have been around for well over a century; the various publication types are called annotations, citators, and legal encyclopedias.

      The real problem is that very few people will bother to read what is actually out there. Ask yourself: when was the last time you commented on proposed legislation without actually bothering to read it? When was the last time you commented on a court decision without bothering to read the decision? These things are already available, for free, in most cases online and without any ads.

    13. Re:SVN for law by DragonWriter · · Score: 2

      Want to hack law ? Then start by by putting the entire code of law in an SVN-like system. Including proposed laws. With traceability of authors, who voted for them, etc... And an associated wiki for comments. And a complete list of cases that used them. This would be invaluable.
       

      You probably need to start first with 100% codification of statute law, which no jurisdiction in the US that I am aware of has (certainly, the federal government does not), and establishing a fundamental (e.g., Constitutional) requirement that all future proposals for legal change include complete codification of all operational provisions.

      Otherwise, uncodified law becomes a convenient route for evading the whole structure you set up.

    14. Re:SVN for law by TheSpoom · · Score: 2

      Exact. In short, many laws are broken by design.

      The proper response to this is not to accept the situation as inevitable. The proper response is to try to fix them.

      --
      It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
      - E. Debs
    15. Re:SVN for law by AK+Marc · · Score: 2

      1st 2nd 4th 5th 9th and 10th Amendments. The proof they are broken being the number of Supreme Court cases raised where arguments are about the meaning of them. Well, except the 9th and 10th. Those are simply ignored.

  2. interestingly lawyers do this anyway by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    computer programmers try to play by the rules: they read the manual and then try to follow what they've learned. Lawyers, meanwhile, are hacking the laws by default. They're always trying to get around following the manual.

    1. Re:interestingly lawyers do this anyway by Nerdfest · · Score: 2

      ... and the major problem is that the law seem to have been written by the same developers that wrote mush of Adobe's Flash code. It needs a major refactoring to get rid of the holes. (Sorry to pick on Adobe, but I have an RSS feed just for warnings for exploits in their software).

    2. Re:interestingly lawyers do this anyway by swalve · · Score: 2, Interesting

      No, it's almost exactly like following code. Lots of logic and ANDs and ORs, MAY or SHALL, etc. The law is only confusing to people who don't know logic.

    3. Re:interestingly lawyers do this anyway by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Lawyers have to play by the rules. That is why they have rules.

      They also try to bend the rules, hack the rules, and find exploits. Lawyers are law nerds, and they hack the law. They also compile manuals that are undecipherable to non-law nerds but make perfect sense to themselves. They write them for themselves, and then they do not understand when others say the whole thing is confusing.

      Sounds oddly familiar.... The only difference between law nerds and computer nerds is that law nerds dress nicer. That and their tv shows are more popular, but that is mostly because of the sex.

    4. Re:interestingly lawyers do this anyway by icebraining · · Score: 2

      What a load of BS. Most computer programmers most certainly don't try to play by the rules nor do they ever RTFM (hell, the term exists for a reason). They hack something up, change it randomly until it compiles and ship it.

    5. Re:interestingly lawyers do this anyway by speedplane · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The terms "and," "or," "may," and "shall" are relatively straightforward and do not receive much attention from lawyers. Terms like "reasonable," "harm," "intentional," and "negligent" tend to suck up much more of their time.

      --
      Fast Federal Court and I.T.C. updates
  3. Just read proposed legislation by MrKaos · · Score: 5, Informative

    I've read legislation and proposed changes or even proposed that the legislation be dropped altogether. I mainly got interested in the first round of cybercrime laws that proposed making me a criminal for using netcat nessus and the like.

    I set up simple word processing macros that addresses a well written and respectful letter to a list of target politicians (usually all of them). Most of the time I've received some sort of response. It makes it easier for the politician too because they can go straight to the parts of the legislation that are bothersome and move those amendments. If many politicians move the amendments they look insightful to the media, co-operative to their party and hard working to their supporters. Your correspondence, on paper, may make them consider things they hadn't. Also forget email - the retention rate is to low and not portable enough for them to talk to a colleague.

    There are many politicians that don't read the legislation at all and just vote on it because they have been sold an opinion or they have to tow the party line. This is why many of the non-partisan issues never get solved and no party want to give the other party the credit for solving a structural issue. So it remains an issue, if enough people write then they can say "Well I tried to do something".

    If more people do this it would really make a difference to the quality of the laws we get. I hope it catches on.

    --
    My ism, it's full of beliefs.
  4. Redundant? by TFAFalcon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Isn't hacking the law what lawyers do all the time? They study the law, find holes in it and exploit them.

    1. Re:Redundant? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Indeed. IAAL, and one of the big reasons I was first attracted to practicing law was the many similarities between legal thinking and computer programming.

  5. Re:Old invention by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yeah, the problem is not so much lack of hacking, but lack of proper code review.

  6. Re:Polishing a turd by ibwolf · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The only way to make the legal system logical would be to throw it out and build another system from scratch.

    Yes, because - as every software developer know firsthand - when you throw out an old crufty system and develop a brand, sparkling, new one in its place it is always a smooth process that provides tremendous benefits

    </sarcasm>

  7. huh huh, huhuhuhuh... by Datoyminaytah · · Score: 5, Funny

    Feels as though nobody cares if my case is won So I might as well begin to find a loophole on my own Hacking the law, Hacking the law...

    --
    assert(birth_date<time-86400)
  8. Re:Polishing a turd by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    And may I propose that in the new system, the *intent* of the rules should be documented alongside the rules, to prevent the system from being abused.

    Example - instead of stating "Bicycles should be equipped with lights" a rule could state "Bicyclists are hard to see in the dark. To prevent bicyclists from getting hurt or killed due to being poorly visible, bicycles should be equipped with lights ".

    Let's say someone is dressed up in bright, glow-in-the-dark clothing but is riding a bike without light. Or on a perfectly lit, quiet road, at 3am. By the intent of the rule, there's no issue; there is no risk of him getting killed due to being "poorly visible". But leave out the intent, and you go down the slippery slope of permitting corrupt cops to stop, fine, and detain a person - and if he resists arrest, tase him into oblivion and possibly kill him, ironically as a result of a rule that was created to PROTECT said person in the first place. The law should have enough power, but not too much.

    Likewise, adding the intent of rules in the law would also prevent the rules from being abused by mega-corporations. No more "hidden agenda" saying one thing but doing another.

  9. laws were made to be hacked not broken by eruci · · Score: 2

    One day i can finally say "I fought the law, and the law lost"

    --
    artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.
  10. Re:do it in python by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Here's the important part:

    if plaintiff.amount_paid() > accused.amount_paid():
      winner = plaintiff;
    else:
      winner = accused

  11. Re:Polishing a turd by mhajicek · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Actually it is. It just runs on a biological multi-core system.

  12. California Gun Laws have been hacked by birukun · · Score: 2

    Check out www.calguns.net for a description of a gun law hack in California.

    Want to own an AR-15 series rifle in California? You can, thanks to the work of some online collaboration and combination of laws.

    In a nutshell, the definition of 'detachable magazine' combined with the poorly written assault weapons law, some case law and testimony from the California Dept of Justice Firearms folks resulted in a movement for building AR series rifles legally in California with all the goodies like pistol grips, etc.

    Same principles applied for importation of handguns not on the 'safe' list - import it as a single shot weapon, then repair it so it is back to a semi-auto configuration.

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    Self Defense - A Human Right www.a-human-right.com