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BART Defends Mobile Service Shutdown

itwbennett writes "In a filing to the FCC, Bay Area Rapid Transit general manager Grace Crunican defended last August's mobile shutdown, saying that 'a temporary disruption of cell phone service, under extreme circumstances where harm and destruction are imminent, is a necessary tool to protect passengers.' Taking the opposing position, digital rights groups, including Public Knowledge, Free Press, the Electronic Frontier Foundation and the Center for Democracy and Technology, told the FCC (PDF) that 'wireless interruption will necessarily prohibit the communications of completely innocent parties — precisely those parties closest to the site where the emergency is located or anticipated.'"

32 of 149 comments (clear)

  1. Next they'll turn off the power by SirBitBucket · · Score: 5, Funny

    In the interest of the greater good...

    1. Re:Next they'll turn off the power by garcia · · Score: 2

      You know, I'm no fun of poor public decision-making but honestly turning off the data in underground public transportation seriously does not seem like that big of a deal to me.

      Honestly, transit (air and subway) is one of the few places you could get some peace and quiet. While it's nice to have, it's not a necessity and whining about it being turned off to avert what they believed was going to be a bad event really probably wasn't all that terrible of an idea.

      That said, your note that you believe the slippery slope is coming to reach to turning off the power is a bit much. Yeah you could have been exaggerating for fun but honestly, that's just silly.

      Disruption of service sucks. If the public sector really thought this would mitigate that disruption, let them do it. Turning off the power, well, that would disrupt the service even more.

      Move along, nothing to see here.

    2. Re:Next they'll turn off the power by interval1066 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You know, I'm no fun of poor public decision-making but honestly turning off the data in underground public transportation seriously does not seem like that big of a deal to me.

      Its increadibly inconviniant, and the airlines are starting to show how unnessessary it is. My own feeling is that they did that in an attempt to conceal the fact that BART was broken again. Had nothing to do with safety.

      --
      Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
    3. Re:Next they'll turn off the power by icebike · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why is this moderated funny?

      Apparently someone already turned off the power to your sarcasm meter.

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      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    4. Re:Next they'll turn off the power by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2, Informative

      OMG! Think of the Medical Devices!

      Give me a break. There are NO, repeat NO medical devices that require constant wireless communication with anything. Otherwise, people would simply keel over in the various Faraday cages that we surround ourselves with throughout the day.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    5. Re:Next they'll turn off the power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Temporarily turning off resources to contain mob behavior is not silencing political speech.

    6. Re:Next they'll turn off the power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This is what I think anyone can object to. If anyone actually believed this was about, "extreme circumstances where harm and destruction are imminent", then it'd be understandable.

      But that's like... terrorist with a remote trigger wired to a mobile phone. Not, "Aw god dammit, a bunch of stupid college kids are gunna protest something again." Then you're just getting nasty about suppressing something you don't like, and you're inconveniencing a gajillion other people in the process.

    7. Re:Next they'll turn off the power by hawguy · · Score: 2

      OMG! Think of the Medical Devices!

      Give me a break. There are NO, repeat NO medical devices that require constant wireless communication with anything. Otherwise, people would simply keel over in the various Faraday cages that we surround ourselves with throughout the day.

      How many faraday cages do you surround yourself with during the day? I can leave my apartment, take the elevator down to the parking garage, hop in my car, drive to work, take the elevator up to the 3rd floor and walk to my office, all without dropping my phone call. (ok, so I've never don't it all in one contiguous call, but I've used my phone on each of those segments individually)

    8. Re:Next they'll turn off the power by Idbar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I certainly hope she doesn't have family and face the need of calling them to inform them about a situation they may run into.
      I wonder if shutting all communications down in Manhattan in September 11 would had significantly helped as this person is claiming.

    9. Re:Next they'll turn off the power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If you assume that "imminent harm" (decided upon without a judge, I am pretty sure) is a good enough reason to kill cell phones.

      We're not talking about killing cell phones, we're talking about turning off a signal relay.

      Driving a car is a privilege too.

      And what you're claiming is that if the government can shut down a road (without judicial review) for safety reasons, then that means they can just take your car away from you entirely. Which is just about as fucking retarded as you can get.

      But here's what most of you are missing entirely. The 911 center has a limited capability to handle calls. They have a limited number of incoming trunks and a limited number of operators to handle those calls. When 1,000 people in the subway all call 911 because some rent-a-cop got frisky with his pepper spray, the 911 center is effectively DDOS'd and can't respond to anything else in town. Which is why each cell tower has a limit on how many calls can connect to 911 at one time... usually the limit is around 5 calls (or less). And of course the tower has a limit on how many calls of any type can be taken at one time.
      So what I'm getting at here, is that in an emergency there's only going to be about a half dozen people who get through to 911, a couple dozen more who get busy signals, and everybody else is just plain fucked because the tower just overloaded. And for the next hour or more, the 911 center will have to take calls from people who are redialing over and over and over.

    10. Re:Next they'll turn off the power by fido_dogstoyevsky · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Temporarily turning off resources to contain mob behavior is not silencing political speech.

      Unless the mob behaviour is protesting against the latest thing the government did but shouldn't have / didn't do but should have.

      Or is it really to prevent Western Spring?

      (Sorry, forgot to put my foil helmet on this morning)

      --
      It's NOT a conspiracy... it's a plot.
    11. Re:Next they'll turn off the power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If the limit is already in place, the need to shutdown the towers all together is?

    12. Re:Next they'll turn off the power by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That said, your note that you believe the slippery slope is coming to reach to turning off the power is a bit much. Yeah you could have been exaggerating for fun but honestly, that's just silly.

      So, which is more useful - blocking communications between members of a dangerous mob or blocking communications of potential victims of that dangerous mob to do things like call 911?

      Of course that question assumes that you buy the claims that the mob is dangerous to anything more than the jobs of the people turning off the communications.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    13. Re:Next they'll turn off the power by Gription · · Score: 4, Informative

      . . .

      Honestly, transit (air and subway) is one of the few places you could get some peace and quiet.

      . . .

      You've never been on BART have you?
      BART is the loudest subway I've ever seen and goes over 100 decibels repeatedly.
      After riding on quality systems in other places such as Munich I find that BART is just a technical embarrassment.

      As far as turning off the cell data coverage... BART consistently has the worst station announcements and the worst station signage. Without the data coverage the only way I can figure out which station I'm at half the time is to get the station map up on the cell and count stops from an identifiable station. I'm really at a loss how a system that big isn't internally audited for simple things like clarity and volume of station announcements. And the lack of clear, obvious, unmistakable station signage is just stupid negligence or apathy on the management's part. 5 minutes on the S-Bahn in Munich will show you how worse then just "Bad" BART is.

    14. Re:Next they'll turn off the power by Smallpond · · Score: 2

      You know, I'm no fun of poor public decision-making but honestly turning off the data in underground public transportation seriously does not seem like that big of a deal to me.

      If they had temporarily banned TV news crews from covering the protests "in the interest of public safety" would that be not such a big deal? After all, they are very intrusive, block emergency access, etc.

    15. Re:Next they'll turn off the power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You are only listening to the BART side of the story.

      First, it's not just data that was shut down, but voice as well.

      Second. Imagine if a fire broke out, or you had a heart attack, or somebody was being attacked; How would you report it without your phone working?

      Third. The only reason BART shut it down was because they wanted to prevent any kind of protests against them (BART police shot a suspect at point blank range, while the suspect was pinned on the ground by multiple police officers).

      Fourth. interfearing with communications are the acts of totalitarian governments around the world, and it is not compatible with Freedom.

  2. Fixing up the story by RenHoek · · Score: 3, Insightful

    sed 's/a temporary disruption of cell phone service, under extreme circumstances where harm and destruction are imminent/anything that could be bad PR/'

  3. They are full of crap, of course! by Mitreya · · Score: 2

    temporary disruption of cell phone service, under extreme circumstances where harm and destruction are imminent, is a necessary tool to protect passengers

    Even if we accept that premise - who decides if "harm and destruction" is imminent? Oh, that's right, BART decides that. A completely unbiased reviewer, they are.

    1. Re:They are full of crap, of course! by hawguy · · Score: 2

      It should be trivial to keep the transmitters running but to stop routing calls. All incoming calls are not getting through, all outgoing calls report "busy" or "no answer."

      But my detonator sends a request to a remote server which is supposed to sign the reply using a symmetric cryptographic key whose paired key resides on the detonator. If if doesn't get a correctly signed response after trying for several minutes, the detonator explodes.

      If I don't want to buy a data plan for my detonator phone, it can use text messages or DTMF phones over a voice call to contact the other computer.

    2. Re:They are full of crap, of course! by jklovanc · · Score: 2, Insightful

      As usual you didn't answer the question but rather decided to troll.
      You might also look into the case a little more before making bold statements.
      1. There was a near riot going on at the platform.
      2. Grant was involved in fighting on the train.
      3. Oscar Grant was not restrained as the BART officer never had control of his hands (even the family in the wrongful death suit agrees on this point). He had escaped custody at least once before and returned to the train
      4. As Grand never surrendered he was never searched and therefore the officers had no way of knowing whether or not he was armed. Any officer will assume someone is armed until they have been cuffed and searched. Grant never got to that point. Even if Grant was unarmed, a struggling man can gain control of an officers gun and use it.
      5. The Officer stated he was going to taze Grant and cleared the other officer so as not to taze him too.
      6. The Officer grabbed the wrong weapon and shot .
      7. Under conditions of stress, adrenaline and split second decision making a tazer and a SIG Sauer P226 can feel very similar in the hand.
      8. The officer felt immediate remorse as evidenced by looking frightened, saying "Oh my God" and holding his head in his hands. Everyone on the platform who saw the officer agreed that he looked stunned at what happened. This looks to me like tha actions of someone who made a mistake and knew it.
      9. There is a federal civil rights case still open against the officer so it isn't even over yet (this is an exception to the double jeopardy rule)
      10. Violent protest had occurred in 2009 over the same issue and there were indications that they would happen again.
      11. The "protest" had the wrong target as the Officer was convicted of involuntary manslaughter and sentenced to 2 years in prison. If the sentence seems too light then protest the courts who imposed the sentence and not BART who had nothing to do with it.
      12. The protest was designed to take place in an area where people could die if they fell of the platform and onto the third rail or in front of a moving train.
      13. Finally and most important, the actions of one officer does not justify the disruption of the lives of thousands of commuters who had nothing to do with the issue. Go ahead and protest but do it safely.

      I am in no way saying what the officer did was right but since you were not there and hindsight while sitting safely at you computer does not compare with being in the middle of a riot you must be very careful in passing judgement without knowing all the facts.

  4. As someone who rides it 5 days a week, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    I don't know what the difference is. There is shitty, background service through about the Montgomery station, with blackout points down below the City (don't do that ride much), and MacArthur through Berkeley is a blackout. I know, bitching about spotty service, etc. but try to get anything done on the train. I just read and don't even bother.

  5. They need to quit the lying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The real reason they shut off cell phone service was to disrupt the electronic communication of the organizers of the protest. If there was a 'safety' reason, it was to disrupt the protest in the interest of safety. Down that path lies the complete elimination of public assembly 'in the interest of safety'.

        I could see their argument if say they had a credible threat of a cellphone-triggered bomb, but trying to disrupt a protest's electronic communication does NOT cut it.

  6. Re:Illegal... by icebike · · Score: 2, Informative

    That action by BART was illegal, plain and simple. I can't wait to hear the amount of the fine they receive!

    Apparently its illegal to jam cell phone transmitters, but not technically illegal to unplug them.
    Its entirely possible the FCC will find itself powerless in this fight, because there is no mandatory "must operate" regulations in place.

    It may come down to who actually owns the cell/wifi transmitters in the underground stations where commercial services can't reach without the transit authority's assistance. It may end up being similar to cutting off the water to a coffee vendor in the stations - purely a contract dispute.

    If you are going to rush in and pronounce something "illegal, plain and simple" please provide your credentials, and what year you were appointed to the bench.

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  7. Re:Illegal... by Xtifr · · Score: 2

    Heck, BART didn't even have cell phone service in many parts of their system up until a couple of years ago. Especially in the East Bay.

  8. Re:Illegal... by icebike · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Exactly.

    A contract dispute, a civil matter, and quite possibly not something under the FCC jurisdiction.

    Maybe the Cell carriers sue BART for disruption of services by cutting power to their micro-cells or something.

    But Bart would likely have been one party to the contract to provide power to the carrier's micro-cells, whereas Tortuous Interference pretty much requires action by a third party, not a party to the contracts.

    Was there an "out" in Bart's contract with these carriers?

    Were there even Carrier Contracts involved, or was BART using off the shelf Cellular repeaters that anyone can buy, which they would be fully within their right to turn off?

    There are a lot of questions to be answered before some guy on slash dot can pronounce something illegal, plain and simple.

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  9. Re:Illegal... by Forever+Wondering · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Apparently its illegal to jam cell phone transmitters

    A felony if I'm not mistaken.

    but not technically illegal to unplug them. Its entirely possible the FCC will find itself powerless in this fight, because there is no mandatory "must operate" regulations in place.

    Uh, no. Cell phone operators [and telcos] are common carriers, subject to Title II regulations, under the Communications Act of 1934. Common carriers [by definition] are prohibited from discriminating service, based on the content of messages (e.g. voice, data). The FCC has complete authority to regulate this matter [from this Act].

    If you are going to rush in and pronounce something "illegal, plain and simple" please provide your credentials, and what year you were appointed to the bench.

    Et tu, Brute?

    --
    Like a good neighbor, fsck is there ...
  10. In other words... by tlhIngan · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So for all transit operators out there, the apparent takeaway from all this is to not provide any form of cell service in weak areas. Offering a repeater that you can control, and disabling it can be considered a breech of freedoms and make you liable.

    Better to just avoid the whole issue and not do anything that'll make your commuters happier. If they want cell service, they can lobby their cell carriers to point antennas directed into the tunnels themselves. And nevermind emergencies - there's always the emergency phones in the trains.

    Anyone who wants to text and use their cellphone, can drive instead.

  11. Not sure what the problem is? by moderators_are_w*nke · · Score: 3, Funny

    My mobile never works on the London Underground, protest or no protest.

    --
    "XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve your problem, use more." - Anonymous Coward
  12. Re:Illegal... by Opportunist · · Score: 2

    By that logic it's quite acceptable to cut gas, water, power and a lot of other things to any place you might wish (provided you're the government), for no other reason than "I wanna", because humanity survived for ages without any of those. Don't like that blogger? Snip his wire!

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  13. You know where I heard that kind of rhetoric last? by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Living this close to the former iron curtain, I have heard and read that kind of apologies before. Every time there was an unrest in one of those countries, something like this would be sprouted. "For the safety", "to protect order", "to keep people from misusing tools" and "what could have happened if we didn't step in".

    So far the difference is still that we don't get shot.

    At least not yet.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  14. Re:Illegal... by icebike · · Score: 2

    Nobody shut down a cellular site.
    Bart shut down THEIR OWN repeaters in the subway. The street level commercial services were not affected.
    Now don't you feel stupid for not reading TFA.?

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  15. No Uploading video of shot unarmed Blacks by thatDBA · · Score: 2

    They don't want you to upload videos of unarmed, handcuffed Black males the BART Police have shot in the back before they have had a chance to confiscate your cell phone.