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Ask Slashdot: How To Shop For a Laptop?
jakooistra writes "My sister recently asked me for a laptop recommendation. I said, 'Sure, what are techie brothers for,' and diligently started my search for her perfect laptop. Two days later, I feel like I've aged two years. Every laptop vendor seems to want to sell a dozen different, poorly-differentiated models, with no real way of finding out what is customizable without following each model to its own customization page. And there are so many vendors! How am I, as a consumer, supposed to find what I need? Is there a website, hiding somewhere I just can't find, that tracks all the multivariate versions and upgrade choices in an easily searchable database?"
jakooistra adds a few criteria, in case you have specific laptop suggestions: "It needs a good CPU, but we almost don't care about the GPU (HD 3000 graphics are acceptable). A model that doesn't get very hot would be nice. We'd like an SSD and an internal optical drive. A 15"-17" screen at 1366x768 or higher would be ideal. Budget is around $1,500, but could go up to $2,000 if it's really worth it."
Do not buy a consumer laptop, make sure you shop around in the Business/Small Business areas of leading manufacturers (HP, Lenovo, Dell).
Pick MacBook Pro or MacBook Air, then pick a size. Done.
Get a pink one. She'll be happy.
I will say, the one thing Mac has done well is avoiding the exact problem the OP describes. They basically have 2 laptops, with a few different monitor sizes. The specs can vary slightly, but not so much as to make a real difference.
-dave
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Step 1 is to figure out what your absolute demands are so as to narrow your choice already. This includes budgeting, what you'll be using the thing for, etc. Sounds like you've already done this.
Step 2: Walk into a store.
No, seriously. It's all good and well to spec out a machine on the web and then say "this one's perfect!". But then you get it and... the casing feels weird, the way the keyboard types makes you cringe, the glossy screen you thought would be nice and sharp is really just reflecting the bright windows behind you when you sit at your desk, the backslash is situated next to the shift key, the audio quality can be called poor at best and while you intend to use headphones most of the time it's really just not acceptable, and whenever you glance at something else, you can't help but notice some weird fuzzy...moving..jittery.. things on the screen that you can't quite see when you look straight at it but you swear they're there (and they are - hello, temporal dithering - load up the LCD test webpage if possible if you care about the screen).
So go to a store and test the machines in person. THEN go back to the internet to find the best deal / customization options if you really want.. or, if you've pretty much found the one you want, get it at the store (yeah, you could save some bucks - but the store did provide you the service of allowing a hands-on.. might as well reward them, within reason).
Your budget is pretty high for a computer that doesn't need to have much graphical prowess, by the way.
Lenvo B575 with a AMD APU. Does everything I want, cheap enough to throw it out the window if it doesn't.
1) If Apple is OK - do consider them. Quality wise not many other notebooks will come close. 2) I suggest looking at screen first and foremost. Vast majority of notebooks have rather bad 768p TN panels. If you will limit your choice to at least 1600x900 or above (assuming 15") choice will become easier since you will look only at few models. And it is still doable within your price range if you stay away from Sony.
Select between Lenovo(Thinkpad) and Apple refurbished, then drill down to whatever models fit the criteria. Then do a favor for them and get them to have the longest warranty obtainable. For Lenovo, this would be 5-year(?, maximum may be 4) onsite service. For Apple, whatever Applecare does is going to have to do.
Either company has some thin and stylish laptops in that price range. Lenovo just happens to make them more maintenance friendly.
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Honestly, for $1500 the Macbook Pro or MBA will suit you very well, even if you don't intend to run OS X. The machines are well built and come with a decent warranty and will last for a long time. They also have pretty high resale value.
If you want to run Windows or Linux then dual booting is a snap (you can blow away the OS X partition completely if you like).
If you do go this route though, I advise that you wait until after Apple's WWDC keynote on June 11th - the strong likelihood is that the 2012 versions of the Macbook Pro and Macbook Air will be announced, so even if you want a current 2011 one, if you wait you can either get a new one for the same price, or a 2011 for a discount.
get a mac
It sounds trite, but there is a kernel of wisdom there. Buy a Macbook Pro if you can afford it.
If you have the budget, you'll get what you pay for. It has the only extended warranty for any electronic gadget that Consumer Reports recommends. It will run any OS you like. It will last for 5 to 10 years depending on your needs (games vs web/email, respectively). You can spend a similar amount and get a comparable or slightly better hardware package from Dell/Alienware, but it won't come with the warranty, OS options, elegance or robustness that Macbook Pros are famous for.
This suggestion will start a flame war. You're going to hear from fanatics from both sides. However, I manage a mix of computers for both a small business and a household with several power users, and I have learned firsthand the strengths and weakness of both camps.
Windows' strengths are in gaming and technical/engineering applications. If you want access to the most games, or need to run CAD/FEA applications, then you should buy a Windows desktop machine. Not a laptop, but one that you can upgrade piecemeal as your needs evolve. Build your own, or arrange to have one built for you, and you can get a spectacular set of hardware specs for a very low price.
However, if you want a casual use or business laptop, then Apple's MBPs are the best available, even if you intend to run Windows exclusively. The extra money you spend will eventually pay off in 1) time saved in building it, and 2) the time saved in maintaining it. The 2.2 GHz 15-inch models offer the best price/performance ratio if your budget is constrained. Otherwise, I recommend buying the 17-inch 2.5GHz quad-core i7 - it will last the longest before you need to purchase a replacement.
I can see the fnords!
No matter what you get max out the RAM to whatever the system Max is everytging else willlast her five years. But software always chews up more ram than it should
i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
Holy crap, that's a horrible idea.
I almost bought an Asus G55. Fifteen inch screen, full 1920x1080 resolution, and just around $1500. Only reason I didn't end up buying it was because I was mislead by the pre-order page to believe that it had two hard drive bays as well as the optical drive bay. Apparently Asus removed that feature without notifying resellers, because I got an email weeks later telling me the machine I'd configured was impossible - I got upgraded to the larger G75 instead.
Now, that particular machine would be terrible for light office/home use. But I've used 1366x768 screens - they are *terrible*, and when you're spending a grand and a half on a laptop, they're completely underspec.
Try to get at least a 1600x900 screen. Seriously. That's just about the most important advice I can give you.
Mac has done well is avoiding the exact problem the OP describes
That's a typical misconception. Apple puts together a very pretty package and basically dictates what you will run, how you will run it, what you can do with it, and where you can do it. There are a whole new set of problems with mac, and if you are quite limited as to what you can do software-wise. You will still have software problems. You still have viruses. You still have software problems with upgrades. People still need to search some forum from time-to-time to figure out how to fix some strange new issue. Ever try and build something from Ports only to have it *not* friggin work when you upgrade? Yeah, same issues. It's not a perfect world that everyone seems to imply. Don't get me wrong, Apple has gone to great lengths to make the use experienced top-notch, but it still has it's problems just like Windows, Linux and FreeBSD. I get really tired of people making it out to be some trouble-free system when it's not.
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Considering that the Mac will run all of your Windows and Linux software alongside Mac stuff, I fail to see how you can say it's limited software-wise.
Your comment sure makes it sound like you wont get a good computer unless you put down 2 grand on an apple. Personally I would recommend lenovo, the thinkpad series is tough, customisable, good support, good warranty, good specs, and a much more tolerable price. For example the new thinkpad edge e530 with the new 3rd generation intel ivybrdige cpu i7-3612QM (22 freaking nm), 2gb nvidia graphics card, up to 16gb of ram, 15.6 inch screen at 1600x900, optical drive, win 7 64 bit, all for only $899 of the australian lenovo site (strangely i couldn't see a ssd option which they almost always do, but the op could set that up himself for $250). It's more than capable of whatever gets thrown at it and you have 1100 dollars left.
Rocket Surgeon.
Keep in mind this isn't a recommendation for the techie brother, but for aforementioned non-techie sister of the techie brother. All of the problems you list are really nerd problems (with a healthy dose of anti-Apple mania thrown in, I might add) and not problems for a casual user. If she has the money for a high-end laptop (and does - budget is "up to $2000"), might as well spend it on a Mac. She'll be happier in the long run and the techie brother can stop shopping for countless hours trying to figure out what's customizable and what isn't.
Your statement that it's not trouble-free is correct, but you imply that it's no more trouble-free than the laptops running Windows. It is, actually. By quite a bit.
I've learned that they're worthless, so I don't read AC comments anymore.
If you decide on Mac, it's probably worth waiting a few weeks - there will be a new MacBook Pro out soon. (The old model is already getting discounted; mid-June to early July expected ship date). It should be lighter and will have the new version of the OS (Mountain Lion) is expected to be released at the same time. OTOH the new model is rumored to not have an optical drive. (Which isn't really a practical drawback in my opinion. The extra battery space will be more useful. Get an external backup drive for extra storage instead.)
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" - Patrick Henry
A couple of years ago I got my mom a Macbook with an AppleCare warranty. (Total cost about $1,000) She is extremely computer illiterate, i.e. copying and pasting links via IM is an advanced topic for her. The machine has behaved well, it hasn't 'rotted' like Windows likes to. The DVD rom failed at some point. She took it to the Apple store and they fixed it right up.
I paid more than I would have for a Windows laptop and I really do not regret it. I've had to do very little tech support for her and Apple has taken care of the rest.
All in all, I'm satisfied, my mother is too.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
All in all, I'm satisfied, my mother is too.
*Sigh* I really should hit preview before I post.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
It sounds trite, but there is a kernel of wisdom there. Buy a Macbook Pro if you can afford it.
If you have the budget, you'll get what you pay for. It has the only extended warranty for any electronic gadget that Consumer Reports recommends. It will run any OS you like. It will last for 5 to 10 years depending on your needs (games vs web/email, respectively). You can spend a similar amount and get a comparable or slightly better hardware package from Dell/Alienware, but it won't come with the warranty, OS options, elegance or robustness that Macbook Pros are famous for.
Agreed. I have a late-2007 MBP that is still my primary computer today. It looks feels brand new. My model suffered from a known issue with the Nvidia graphics chip (thanks to shoddy manufacturing on Nvidia's part, it was the subject of a widely-publicised class action lawsuit that also involved Dell and HP), and when it died on me late last year it was repaired for free (although I probably have Nvidia to thank for that more than Apple). It originally came with OSX 10.4 with a 10.5 upgrade disk but now runs 10.7 no hassles, although I did upgrade the RAM to 4GB myself. My MBP is pre-unibody so I imagine the newer models are even more durable.
Before the MBP I had a mid-2006 Macbook (the very first Macbook model). When I decided to upgrade to the MBP I gave the Macbook to my not very computer literate mother (who isn't always the most gentle with electronic devices) who continues to use it this day. The only issue she experiences is that the power button is finally starting to wear to the point where it sometimes takes two presses to start the computer.
In contrast I have my work provided HP Elitebook from 2009 (a fairly high-end business model) that creaks, groans, has plastic panels that don't seamlessly match up, a lower quality LCD, weighs more than the MBP, has fan exhausts in truly bizarre places and trackpad buttons that fire randomly sometimes. In it's favour it has slightly superior specs to the MBP, more ports and slots for various things, and it's relatively easier to disassemble (removable keyboards are great). However despite being 2 years younger in age I fully expect the MBP to be chugging along long after this thing is dead.
I appreciate that this is only an anecdote, and plenty of good reasons exist to hate on Apple, but in my experience the build quality of their gear is not one of them. An MBP is definitely worth a look IMHO.
Single-button, multi-touch trackpad. Two two fingers to right-click or scroll. It works better in Windows than any trackpad I've ever used.
The strongest argument I can see against getting a Mac is they're expensive compared to PCs. I got mine second because of that.
If you are lucky enough to have one of thesevery cool stores near you they are a great place to shop and buy tech. The prices are good, and for a brick and mortar operation they are sometimes awesome -- and the staff is usually informed. They also sell online. But a lot of stuff is in-store only. I have to drive for an hour to get to mine, but it is worth it. You could take your sister with you.
I go into consumer coma in the store near me (Rockville MD). I imagine it is like being in an online operation's warehouse. I just bought components for an Ivy Bridge desktop build. They beat Newegg on the prices of the main components, MoBo and CPU, but Newegg was cheaper for the smaller boards. Cables etc were also reasonable at Microcenter (Unlike Best Buy where the prices of cables and cords are usurious). Laptop selection was also good, but I wasn't buying.
As for comparison tips. I look at likely products with lots of reviews to take advantage of the hive mind. Then the percentage of good to bad reviews for a given product. Then I read a few good and a few bad. Sometimes a bad review of an otherwise good product will expose a deal killer for me. This is not the end all be all of a buying decision, but not all reviews are astroturfed.
Last thing about a laptop buy. Teach your sis to take care of it. Don't run it on a pillow. Don't flop it on a table like a text book. Or slam it shut like a car door. Put it in its case to travel. And follow good practice with the battery (even Lions need some thought.) And wipe it down from time to time. Silicon has a soul and likes to be kept clean.
"No fear. No envy. No meanness." Liam Clancy
I would have to second the recommendation for Lenovo. The place I'm working used to be exclusively a Lenovo shop and I was very impressed with the engineering of the boxes. They originally gave me a very old Lenovo desktop that had been around the block a few too many times and was under-configured. The optical drive no longer worked. When the IT guy came to replace the CD and add more memory I couldn't believe how quickly he finished. Seriously, it couldn't have taken him more than 60 seconds to open the box, add the memory, pop out the old CD and pop in the new one.
That got me looking seriously at Lenovo. Shortly afterward I bought a Thinkpad W700 laptop that has seen near continual use for almost three years now. Last year I bought a Thinkpad X-series laptop so I had something a little easier to travel with than the behemoth W700. The W700 will soon be replaced with a W530. Nothing really wrong with it, but it's three years old and I'm dying to get one of those new Ivy Bridge i7 machines.
The Thinkpads aren't sexy. They're no-nonsense, well-engineered tools to get a job done. And equivalently equipped they cost a helluva lot less than a Mac.
Apple puts together a very pretty package and basically dictates what you will run, how you will run it, what you can do with it, and where you can do it.
You can run anything you like on any Macbook. And as other responders have noted it DOES solve the "too many models" problem, there is a limited selection of base models. It's basically, do you want an air or not and how much memory (RAM and storage) with reasonable defaults so you cannot go wrong simply ordering default configurations.
You will still have software problems.
Here's the key thing. Yes, you will have software problems. But who will solve them? If you are helping a friend buy a PC it's YOU who are solving them, that's who.
If you help someone buy a Mac you can simply say "try the Apple store Genius Bar first". Chances are they can help, they generally are pretty competent and pretty technical.
You still have viruses.
Actually no. There's one virus, one, that was from a Java installation, and an OS update already closed the hole. And you would have had to go through a chain of trouble to activate it... not a virus at all in fact.
But even ignoring the technical definition the truth is that unlike a PC, generally you can let a non-technical user go for years with a Mac and be pretty sure they will not have a virus.
You still have software problems with upgrades.
Actually that is REALLY rare, and again - Apple Store, not you. I have not had upgrade problems in years with any Mac software updates.
People still need to search some forum from time-to-time to figure out how to fix some strange new issue.
Or have someone help them for free, at an Apple Store. Are you starting to get what makes a Mac such a great idea for non-technical users? How is a non-technical person supposed to search forums for "odd problems" anyway? They cannot.
Ever try and build something from Ports only to have it *not* friggin work when you upgrade?
Come on man, that's not something the original poster is going to find a problem. If you are compiling UNIX utilities yes you may have some hiccups, but even then you can usually just recompile!
Apple has gone to great lengths to make the use experienced top-notch, but it still has it's problems just like Windows
That is the biggest misconception. I still have to help people with modern (Windows 7) pc's from time to time. Macs do NOT have problems anywhere close to what non-technical windows users have every day.
To even think about buying a non-technical user a Windows box and all the inherent baggage that comes with it is simply cruel to my mind - and it's a cruelty that as I said will be punishing you as well as the recipient.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The hidden advantage of Lenovo is that all their stuff looks 10 years old, so no one bothers stealing it.
"That's either incredibly asinine or the most brilliant troll I've ever read. Not sure which." -Anonymous Coward
If you go to Dell's website, for example, you might find 10 different models of 15" laptops, and it won't be very clear what the difference is between models
And anything a geek cares about (max ram, HD slots - some come with one drive but hold more, and videocard range, as they show "common" config, usually base to go with the base price shown) is hidden from the comparison. But some details are in there most don't care about (i5 vs i5 where you have to look up processor codes to see what the differences are). And damn if half can be upgraded to "HD+" and a few to "Full HD" and you can't know until you try to configure every single one of them, though some comparison screens do show the difference, but not always, and not easily.
I hate Dell for that. I want to be able to put in some options, get some pull downs for other options, then given a choice of "this one has a numeric keypad, and the others don't" or "this one has 2xUSB 3.0 and the other has 4x USB 2.0" or whatever the difference is between the inspiron and latitude versions is when essentially identical configuration.
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It seems to me that the techie brother isn't much of a techie if he can't find or interpret specifications. He might know how to set the clock on his microwave, but he is not a techie.
Real techies never read marketing materials when buying a computer, because spec sheets explain CPU, GPU, memory and storage options.
the HS down the street from us was throwing away perfectly good TRS80s so i picked up 5 and configured them to run as a Beowulf cluster and i soldered a nice case to carry the boards around. the punch card input via telex works fine now that I have written my own version of DOS and drivers. why would you need a mac?
Step 1: The biggest problem with laptops are generally reliability. Figure out the reliable brands. Apple, Dell, Toshiba, and oddly Asus generally do well there, and Sony & HP are usually close to last. Start at those manufacturer sites.
Step 2: The major differentiation is in CPU type & Speed. Is it a quad-core i7? an i3? If you're doing video editing or realtime code debugging, you need a top level i7. For gaming, an i5 is fine, and for everyone else an i3 is AOK. Note: Everyone offers laptops in whatever screen size you want. So pick your screen size and ignore the rest. Also, ignore anything over 8 lbs. The weight is never worth it.
Step 3: GPU. If you need a gaming processor, configure the biggest the manufacturer offers. This can never be upgraded, there are no real options, and you can't get it later. So get it. If you don't need gaming, then Great! Nothing else uses the bloody thing, so don't bother.
Step 4: Battery length. It's usually worth splurging on the biggest battery you can find, so configure that into the build. Everyone has a "long" one that lasts about the same length. Look for manufacturers who have battery settings that keep the charge withing 20% min and 80% max... This will greatly extend the lifespan of that extra 100 bucks.
Step 5: Now figure out which setup is the closest to what you want, and go for it! Why haven't I mentioned RAM, Hard drive, software, or other optional extras? Because buying this from the manufacturer is flushing money down the toilet. Buy these after-market.
The ______ Agenda
This is the standard claim that is thrown against Apple. It's not the glowing bitten Apple you're buying with that extra dough. What you are getting is a lot more things:
* Robust case that works the exact same way also 3 years after active use and possible multiple falls. The screen still closes tightly and soundlessly. I've had my MacBook Pro fall somehow and dent one edge near the CD drive and I've never noticed it. A comparable blow to cause aluminum to dent like this would have shattered a plastic laptop.
* Ease of use. And that's something most people forget to price really. If your life turns around Linux kernels and command line and you don't have lawn to mow or family to spend quality time with, then you might not understand how much that is worth. Software management is hassle free (drag and drop for 90% of stuff, App Store for the rest that keeps and does all the updates for you).
* Easy support from Apple as already outlined in many posts that makes sure any issue that pops up for the ordinary user is solved and their experience is a great one. Forget here the geeks that squeak when the latest nightly doesn't build from ports or what not. Noone cares about that really as it affects a negligible amount of people in the real world (albeit quite a lot of people on slashdot).
* The speed... Forget the need to compare drive spin speeds and CPU MHz and what not. What really matters is the speed at which your computer operates when you do stuff. And while Mac's are usually "underpowered" in comparison to many PC's it's due to perfectly clear reasons and lack of need for anything higher. You don't gain much by slamming the highest end CPU in there and then being unable to sustain it for 8h as well as the heating that you have to take care of. What really matters is that the macs with OS X combination is really snappy in most situations. If you go for an Air that is all SSD with passive cooling you get nice speed with no noise what so ever.
* The trackpad. I mean seriously that's one major thing that either has to be seriously patented out or I cannot fathom why others don't use it yet. The huge trackpad is very nice to the feel under the finger and the multi touch gestures are something you grow into so tightly that when you have to use a non-mac laptop for what ever reason you feel suddenly as if someone had amputated your arm.
* OS X ... There are so many things why OS X is far superior to Windows (and Linux doesn't even come close for the standard non-geek user). Most of all for the common things people do and should do. One biggest highlight is the native backup system Time Machine. You add either a USB disk or if you bought Time Capsule for the wifi the disk from there and it's about 1-2 clicks to turn the system on. After that you forget about it (that's what 99.99% of standard users do, forget about backups) and you never notice it at all. At least not until your hard drive fails (something I've experienced once and used once when I upgraded the disk to SSD as well as have seen some other people experience so it's not just stories and ads, but real life experience). You then just get the new HDD, boot the machine up (usually the HDD from Apple contains the OS boot environment for recovery or you use your boot usb key or what not) and select recovery from Time Capsule. You then leave for a few hours and you return to an EXACT working laptop pre-disk loss. All your settings, command history, tunes and tweaks, e-mail filters, junk mail learning base, everything (including custom ports and what not of non-OS X stuff) is exactly as you had at the time of last backup. No fuss, you just sit down and continue working as if nothing happened.
* After market value. A lot of people won't buy a Mac out of the shop due to pricing issues, but a 1-2 year used Mac is usually in pristine condition so if you want to upgrade you'll find a decent deal on the aftermarket reducing your entry price for the next laptop. Add to it a custom memory pack and buy an SSD from so
You're doing it hopelessly wrong.
She has totally different criteria than you. Numbers and specs mean nothing. Anything on the shelf will be powerful enough and have enough RAM, etc. for a normal person.
The real question is: Will it make her happy?
Take her to a big shop with lots of laptops and see which one she fondles. Feel the keys, pay particular attention to the trackpad buttons. Pick it up and see if it feels solid. If it seems reasonably well built then that's the right one.
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