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The Gamification of Hiring

Posted by samzenpus on from the tope-score-profession dept.

First time accepted submitter funge writes "The Economist has an article on Work and play: The gamification of hiring about a start-up that lets you play games to show off your talents to prospective employers. From the article: 'The rules of Happy Hour are deceptively simple. You are a bartender. Your challenge is to tell what sort of drink each of a swelling mob of customers wants by the expressions on their faces. Then you must make and serve each drink and wash each used glass, all within a short period of time. Play this video game well and you might win a tantalizing prize: a job in the real world.'"

203 comments

  1. Dance, monkey, dance! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Seriously, WTF is wrong with employers these days??

    Isn't it enough that I went to college and built a solid base of good work I can point to that shows I can do the job?

    If you just want someone reliable who is quick to learn and gets things done, don't put me through the wringer like you're a Bachelorette holding out for Prince Charming!

    1. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by The+Mighty+Buzzard · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Those who can, do. Those who can't, manage.

      --
      Violence is like duct tape. If it doesn't solve the problem, you didn't use enough.
    2. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sadly, it doesn't matter that you went to college because universities have fallen all over themselves to devalue your degree. Requiring a degree does help employers reduce the number of job applicants to a manageable level, but the skill range of those left is still incredibly broad. As a result, the interview process has gotten more and more elaborate, and games are now just the latest step in an attempt to reduce the applicant pool.

    3. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by sycodon · · Score: 1

      The Perter Principal Lives!

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    4. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by SuricouRaven · · Score: 0

      Demand on their time. When twenty people apply for a job, you can interview them all. When a hundred apply, you have to start examining CVs. But now, thanks to the internet, it's routine to get thousands of people apply for one job. What is an employer to do? They need some way to streamline the evaluation process. Games are another attempt to solve this problem.

      Many still rely on the simplist possible method though: Grab half the pile of applications and throw them straight in the bin, because there just isn't time to read so many.

    5. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by Dunbal · · Score: 5, Funny

      When a hundred apply, you have to start examining CVs.

      Of course there's another method: take 50 CV's from the pile and throw them in the trash, and tell yourself "there, I got rid of all the unlucky ones".

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    6. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by pitchpipe · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Seriously, WTF is wrong with employers these days??

      It's corporatocracy at its finest. With fewer and fewer jobs, and more and more wealth being concentrated in the hands of the few, it is not surprising to see our corporate masters starting to act like the feudal lords of old. We are there for their entertainment.

      Because corporations are gathering power over our lives that used to belong only to the government, we need a bill of rights that covers interactions between corporations and individuals, their 'corporations are citizens too' bullshit notwithstanding.

      I, for one, do not welcome our corporate overlords.

      --
      Look where all this talking got us, baby.
    7. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by Kozar_The_Malignant · · Score: 1

      >Isn't it enough that I went to college and built a solid base of good work I can point to that shows I can do the job?

      That is exactly what I look for when hiring. A couple of relevant references would be nice, and depending on the position, I will give you a test when you come in for an interview.

      --
      Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
    8. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by phantomfive · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think you're missing the point. The job market for programmers is changing, in Silicon Valley there are now far more positions than programmers. These guys aren't trying to rule out bad programmers, they are trying to attract good ones. (note: if you're going to reply to me saying you still can't find a job, the problem is you not the market).

      When kids from college hear that sort of thing, they think, "cool my job interview is a game!" Then they tell their friends, who are immediately jealous. Remember these are kids who've grown up most of their life playing games, have spent much more time playing games than working. It appeals to them. They want to dance.

      Note, when I say they are trying to attract talent, I mean they are trying to attract cheap college students, not actual experienced programmers. This kind of thing drives me crazy.

      Someday I want to start a company with a bunch of old, experienced, very very good programmers. We will all write solid, readable code, and get things done in an eighth of the time it takes everyone else. It will be wonderful.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    9. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is actually a rather "sane" approach, in a way... Who would want unlucky employees?

    10. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by Kozar_The_Malignant · · Score: 5, Informative

      Demand on their time. When twenty people apply for a job, you can interview them all. When a hundred apply, you have to start examining CVs. But now, thanks to the internet, it's routine to get thousands of people apply for one job. What is an employer to do? They need some way to streamline the evaluation process. Games are another attempt to solve this problem. Many still rely on the simplist possible method though: Grab half the pile of applications and throw them straight in the bin, because there just isn't time to read so many.

      I never interview 20 people for a vacancy. I never interview more than 5, and I try to keep it to 3. It's simple to narrow down the field of applications. Our typical announcement will say something like,"Submit cover letter, completed application, resume, and three letters of reference before 3 pm Friday, June 25." Somewhere between 40-60% will fail to have all of those, and they go immediately to the reject pile. If I still have a huge pile, the next sort is made on some relevant criterion. We might have said, "College degree in Industrial Hygiene or related field preferred." If it's an entry level position, I cull out those without a degree. Then I read cover letters. Can you communicate clearly in standard, written English. Spelling errors are fatal. If you don't care enough to press F7, you don't care enough to be trusted with our work product. Now I'm down to a manageable group, which I score on a matrix. Usually there will be a clearly defined top group of 2-5, which I interview. The interview is almost all about how the person will fit into our group, because the finalists can pretty much all do the job. If not, we go back through the pole or go out again. I learned long ago that the wrong hire is hugely worse than an empty chair.

      --
      Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
    11. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by PopeRatzo · · Score: 3, Informative

      Seriously, WTF is wrong with employers these days??

      Isn't it enough that I went to college and built a solid base of good work I can point to that shows I can do the job?

      No, that's not enough. Employers want you to be a lot more humble than that. Your solid base of good work and education only means that you'll probably expect to be treated like a human being of value instead of someone desperate, sniveling, insecure.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    12. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by hughbar · · Score: 1

      Ha! I'm 61 still programming, having demoted myself back to freelance coding and I'll come and work for you. Just joking, I get plenty of work, for the reasons in your last paragraph, I turn up at the right time each day and get on with it. Also, I've seen plenty of stuff to have fairly good intuitions about what's going to be problematic before we're three months in.

      As for the subject of the post, do these HR/cool-corporate trends never end? We're through the bean-bag and table football now, I guess. So, my suggestion for the next cool thing is piggy back races in a room partially filled with jello [that's jelly to us, I'm a Brit] whilst yodelling something appropriate from Britney's back catalogue. Now, there's a test of stamina, multitasking and musical talent.

      --
      On y va, qui mal y pense!
    13. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by bky1701 · · Score: 1

      Well, as long as they weren't alphabetized.

      --
      Great Intellect...
    14. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by PopeRatzo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Because corporations are gathering power over our lives that used to belong only to the government, we need a bill of rights that covers interactions between corporations and individuals,

      Corporations are gathering power over our lives that never belonged to the government.

      There was actually a time when there was something of a balance between the aggregate of labor and the aggregate of capital. People like my grandfather got their heads bashed in so that future workers could have this balance, but an organized, systematic attack on workers' rights by an unholy alliance of the biggest corporations and the corporate royalist politicians like Ronald Reagan and Mitt Romney has created the arena-like atmosphere of today's workplace, where the question is not how small will my annual raise be, but how much of my compensation will I be required to give back to the employer. And those give-backs are certainly not because the corporations aren't profitable, in fact they are profitable at all-time historical levels. Rather those give-backs are meant to create greater separation between a self-appointed elite and the people who actually make the machines go. It wasn't the result of market forces that created this situation, it was the belief that money accumulated is morally superior to money earned. And that sociopathic worldview has destroyed families, communities and sickened society to the point of near collapse. The reason workers are making less, we are told by the likes of Mitt Romney, is because workers are not willing to make less. And tribalism is engaged in the most cynical ways to get people to stand up and demand to not get a pension, to demand to not have the right to collectively bargain, to demand not to be treated with respect. Meanwhile, the "capital management" elite are laughing up their shirtcuffs while voting each other obscene rewards.

      And that balance between the power of capital and the power of labor was not only good for the union workers, but it was good for the entire economy, the entire culture. We had an unprecedented period of growth, where workers at all levels of society could have a small measure of dignity, and expectation of a little better life for their kids.

      "Class warfare" they accuse, when any mention of their ugly willingness to break the social contract. "Class warfare!". They should only get a taste of real class warfare. Maybe that's the only thing that would make them re-think their destructive ways: actual class warfare. Because it makes one reconsider the errors of one's ways when the head of a colleague ends up on a pike.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    15. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by realityimpaired · · Score: 1

      What, you don't want to work for Adams, Albertson, Alfredson, and Winston Inc?

    16. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by bickerdyke · · Score: 1

      Well... if THAT fit's your job profile, I'm oik with that.

      OTOH, if your job requires some fast respones to external stimuli and remembering stuff, then that game might really do a good job sorting out applicants.

      But that's not that type of skillset that you aquire by studying for your master degree.

      --
      bickerdyke
    17. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      Isn't it enough that I went to college and built a solid base of good work I can point to that shows I can do the job?

      No. That is not enough. I have interviewed many, many people with degrees in computer science who cannot write a program to sort an array of ten integers. Those with a "solid base of good work" often cannot explain any of it, and will eventually admit it was done as a team project.

      If you want to work for me, you will have to prove you can write code by writing code.

    18. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      When a hundred apply, you have to start examining CVs. But now, thanks to the internet, it's routine to get thousands of people apply for one job. What is an employer to do?

      One option is to run them through a spell checker. That will cut the pile in half. People who don't even bother to proofread their own resumes, will probably do a sloppy job at anything.

    19. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well put.

      The gag is that they learn just that at those management seminars. I kid you not, I was forced to sit through a few of this. It reminded me a lot of kindergarden. Essentially, what you do is sit around and play silly group games. A bunch of people getting to stand on a tiny carpet and have to turn the carpet around without getting off it. I get it, we can only do it if we work together and if some lead and some follow, can I now get out of the armpit of that fat bozo next to me?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    20. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      If it's any comfort to you, it usually ends with the elimination of some heads. It just takes time.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    21. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      This. A billion times this.

      Throw away your resume and your diploma. I don't want to see either. I want to see your code. If I want anything besides that, I want you to swear that you did it yourself and didn't crib that, because if I wanted that, I could look at your diploma. Hell, how do you think I got mine? :)

      But seriously. I've seen far too many people holding degrees that should mean something only to discover what you did: They can't code their way out of a paper bag.

      But for that, I don't need them to jump through hoops and beg properly when I hold a doggy biscuit in front of their nose. I need to see their code. Sadly, it's not that easy for HR, so they use doggy biscuits.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    22. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Old guys rock! (Assuming they know how to program). And they're experienced so they know how to keep going through the rough patches without burning out (life balance, sense of perspective, and all that). The only reason I can see for hiring a bunch of young programmers is because you can't find enough experienced programmers.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    23. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by TheDarkMaster · · Score: 1

      will fit into our group

      Be careful with that ... A sociopath is much better at playing the "social game" than a good professional whose only fault is being shy or reserved. And I believe you do not want to hire the sociopath.

      --
      Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
    24. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are a poster child for the Dunning-Kruger effect.

    25. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We already are in the middle of class warfare. It' s undeclared, and the the 'power elite' don't want the rest of us to know. That's because they are already waging war on the other classes.

      If you go back and study the history or the last 50 years or so, one pattern you will see is how the progenitors of the self appointed elite have appropriated language. An example of this idea is that white males are being 'oppressed.' (I'm one). We are, but in quite different ways and to a much lesser degree that say, young black males. Affirmative action had made it harder for a white male to be hired in some situations, but I'm pretty sure I have much less chance of suffering from police harassment or brutality.

      I propose that us non-privileged non-elites fight back and do some of our own language appropriating. Every time you hear the boogeyman of "Class Warfare," point out how the upper 1% has been waging war on the rest of us since, I dunno, Saint Regan (sarcasm) was President.

    26. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by tycoex · · Score: 1

      Because everyone knows posting on an online forum carries the equivalent importance of a job application.

    27. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by dougisfunny · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Unless they're hiring for the CEO position.

      --
      This is not the funny you're looking for.
    28. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by Kozar_The_Malignant · · Score: 1

      You're quite right. One of my more successful recent hires is quite shy. I'm looking more for similarity in professional outlook rather than social skills.

      --
      Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
    29. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      There are good reasons and bad reasons for hiring inexperienced programmers. The bad reason is that they're cheap and willing to put up with a lot of crap. The good reason is that they haven't picked up very many bad habits yet. It's usually easier to teach someone good habits than it is to persuade someone to unlearn bad ones. If you're willing to put in effort in terms of mentorship and training, and then make sure that your work environment encourages them to stick around so you reap the rewards, then hiring inexperienced programmer can be a good idea. I can think of a very small number of companies that do this, but they tend to do well. Of course, this requires that you also hire some good, experienced programmers to bootstrap the process...

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    30. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by Dr+Herbert+West · · Score: 1

      Worker's bill of rights? That sounds like a document that would be written by something called... wait for it... a union.

      Nowadays, like it or not, that word is synonymous with "mafia" and "over-regulation of the free market", just the way our corporate overlords prefer it.

      Here on /. all the kids think it means "too much of a pussy to demand a raise", which just goes to show how the battles won by our parents for our benefit are forgotten by their grandkids.

    31. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I carry a gun to interviews just in case one of these idiotic gamification strategies is mentioned. Halo was an excellent training simulator. ;) Carry on, Sarg.

    32. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Yeap. I still think you'd get more done, more cheaply, if you hired some experienced, capable programmers than the other way around. Tough to find that kind, though.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    33. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by hax4bux · · Score: 1

      I work at a SOMA startup where all the coders (except one) are over 40 years old.

      We do great things. Without drama or ego. It is a wonderful place to work.

    34. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      Unions (in the US) cut their own throats when they made it hard to fire someone who sucks at their job. No one wants to work in a place where that one person who can't be fired because of seniority is constantly making their life miserable.

      Next time power swings to the side of the unions, we need to remember that.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    35. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by Kozar_The_Malignant · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure what I said would lead you to that conclusion. My business is successful, largely because I try to hire people smarter than I am and then get out of their way. I used to use a quote from Aristoi by Walter john Williams as a sig:"The deluded are filled with absolutes. The rest of us have to live with ambiguity."

      Also, I'm sure you are aware that Dunning and Kruger were awarded an Ig Nobel for their work.

      --
      Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
    36. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by PopeRatzo · · Score: 5, Interesting

      If it's any comfort to you, it usually ends with the elimination of some heads. It just takes time.

      I know, but that's some cold comfort.

      For me, I don't really care. My working life, my accumulating life is over. I've gotten to a point, by long design, where these things don't affect me so directly any more.

      But I've got a kid, a daughter, who's just getting started in life. It burns me up that the world she's getting ready to take on is so hostile to the traditional values of love, family, integrity, fairness.

      Because to the people in charge, "family values" means making sure that two gay guys can't get the same rights as my wife and me, but to me, "family values" means that a family can afford to send kids to school and get mom surgery if she needs it and maybe retire to a simple life of ease for a few years. "Family values" means that buying a home is more than the three-card monte game that the financial industry has made it. I was there the day my mom and dad burned their mortgage on a house my dad was able to buy after coming home from WWII. How many families ever get to a "mortgage burning" any more? How many people in their fifties or sixties ever see that kind of independence? And it's not by accident that the answer is "very few".

      People want to talk about the "gamification" of the job market. How freaking insulting. Human beings take work seriously. The work they do is not just about bringing home a check. I don't care if you're a machinist like my dad or a garbage man or a computer programmer. Our elites have turned it all to shit, and now they want us to fix it all for them by working an extra five years of our lives and by sending our kids to trade school instead of university and by renting instead of buying.

      I always go stop and stand around near my mom and dad's grave on memorial day. I look at the flag on my dad's headstone and the mention of "family and country" there. I can't believe how badly our "overlords" have mis-served us. As far as I'm concerned, they have forfeited their right to our obedience. The heads of corporations should fear us, not the other way around.

      I'm ready to pitch in and buy John Galt a one-way ticket, because he's a big selfish fuck-up.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    37. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When a hundred apply, you have to start examining CVs. But now, thanks to the internet, it's routine to get thousands of people apply for one job. What is an employer to do?

      One option is to run them through a spell checker. That will cut the pile in half. People who don't even bother to proofread their own resumes, will probably do a sloppy job at anything.

      The trick to it is sending in your resume in a pdf format. ha! spell check that.

    38. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by SuricouRaven · · Score: 4, Interesting

      When I was on the dole, the benefits money was conditional upon my showing constant effort to apply for work. Unfortunatly I don't drive, and so my working radius was limited. There just weren't that many jobs I was willing to accept within reach, so I ended up submitted a lot of 'pad the numbers' applications. Half-hearted standard cover letter, standard CV, off they go. Because I didn't care if I didn't get that job, I was holding out for something better.

      I got the something better, eventually. It still sucks, but it sucks less than a hour-long commute on the train to man helpdesk would.

      Another factor was that the employment advisor kept asking me to apply for jobs I was completly unqualified for, on the grounds that one computer job is much like the other. I had a diploma in networking and a very good knowledge of hardware - and, to the layperson, that makes me perfectly qualified for a position as a web designer or programmer in languages completly unfamiliar to me. So it is quite possible that some of those sloppy resumes are by people who don't actually want the job at all, but need to apply in order to put on a show.

    39. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      That sounds wonderful.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    40. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by bky1701 · · Score: 2

      I'd rather we not start getting tons of Zanders.

      --
      Great Intellect...
    41. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What every comment here seems to be missing is that there's more to hiring an employee than whether you can do the job. How reliable are you? How well do you problem solve? Are you a constant hassle that wastes everyone's time? Are you engaged in the work you do? Do you constantly improve your job and try improve yourself and be more efficient? Are you always trying to run game instead of working? Your comment suggests you're unrealistic, don't see the bigger picture, and that you cause lots of problems because you're over opinionated about nonsense. I wouldn't hire you. Actually, I would weigh those cons against any pros you might have, but those are some pretty big red flags.

    42. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      just because someone has no college degree doesn't mean they're useless.

    43. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      I agree with your assessment except for the partisan bias.. Both parties are to blame.

    44. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Catch with that is, the psychopath is out to screw everyone including the company and if the psychopath can make the most by screwing over the company, guess who gets it in the neck. Normally things look great for a year or two, maybe even three with the psychopath in charge and then everything goes boom. Sometimes it will last longer if you give the psychopath a piece of the company, but they you might be in the way of their getting the rest of the company and you go boom. Psychopath employment is pretty much playing Russian Roulete with half the chambers loaded, more than one person gets the bullet and it could be you.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    45. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by geminidomino · · Score: 2

      Oh great. Now we've got Pierson's Pupeteers in the HR office...

    46. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've been surprised at the number of applicants who have been Principle Engineers at some time in their careers..

    47. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      pdf2txt is your friend.

      --
      Rethinking email
    48. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's spelled "Xander". It's short for Alexander.

    49. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by downhole · · Score: 1

      Funny thing about experience... I haven't been programming professionally long enough to have a really good perspective on the overall market, but all of the "old and experienced" programmers I have personally worked with were lousy at it. They're passably good at one small aspect, usually writing C against Win32 or MFC, and refuse to have anything to do with anything else. And typically throw endless hackish patches onto poorly-architectures code until eventually it's basically unmaintainable.

      Not to say that all old programmers are bad, but being experienced doesn't necessarily mean that you're any good at it. In my opinion, the world of programming and computer science changes so fast that anybody who isn't constantly trying to learn about new technology will soon be useless. The guys I'm most impressed with are the ones who are always pushing to learn something new, try something new, make their code a little bit better. Of course, that's while not being so inexperienced or starry-eyed to try to do everything in the latest flavor of the week without thinking about whether it really improves the end product.

      --
      I don't reply to ACs
    50. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bro, I think you misunderstood. You are John Galt.

      The corporate heads now are the antithesis of the protagonists in that story. They exist only to hold the individual back. The whole point of that book wasn't just about how government mistreats us, but also about how corporatists mistreat us. Look at what Taggart's cronyism did for the economy and tell me that that wasn't an indictment of exactly the things corporations get into today.

    51. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lots of major consultancy firms are like this, from what I've seen. There are lots of older designers and engineers who put on a suit and tie every day, and go around helping small and medium businesses implement and integrate enterprise systems and such.

      From what I've seen the pay is pretty awesome too. You just have to approach it with the attitude that a lot of business problems can be solved in similar ways. In a lot of cases that's true, especially when you start talking about accounting systems, because it's all Math, and the beauty of Math is that it is relatable to anything simply by monkeying around with the symbols we use.

    52. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Yeap. Problem is a lot of the good ones have figured out how to IPO or get into management. Hard to find experienced good programmers.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    53. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by Kreigaffe · · Score: 2

      Assuming that belief in "luck" is, in fact, a sane belief.

      PROTIP: It's a half-step above consulting chicken entrails.

      --
      ... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about. :|
    54. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by Kreigaffe · · Score: 1

      Right.

      There's a ton of execs that are, in fact, out to screw everyone including the company they work for, if the end result is their own personal benefit. Honestly it's one of the reasons our economy has kinda gone to poop.

      Hell, look at the stock market. You think the guys trading stocks are doing anything BUT trying to make money for themselves? Hell no. That's their one motivation, and consequences be damned -- if they make money, it means the system works and the system is good.

      --
      ... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about. :|
    55. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by thoughtspace · · Score: 2

      And exclude anyone from another English speaking country that use 's' instead of 'z' (e.g. for initialise).

      Our only redeeming feature is we don't use that awful American word 'gotten.' In Australia, we are taught to avoid 'got' where ever possible - 'gotten' is right out of the question.

      Considering we have a long past of being Americanised (Americanized?), "Dance, monkey, dance!" seems somewhat appropriate.

    56. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by Kozar_The_Malignant · · Score: 1

      You're quite right, and our job announcements will usually say degree or equivalent experience. Of my six department heads, three have degrees and three don't. If I'm looking for a position where I want someone with three to five years experience, a degree really doesn't enter into it except maybe as a tie breaker... maybe. I'm looking for an application packet that tells me you can do the job.

      --
      Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
    57. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by TerranOdyssey · · Score: 1

      The same issue exists with unions in both Australia and Canada. The protection of disengaged poor performers leads to a cancerous culture of disengagement as workers see lazy or inept co-workers receiving equal reward.

    58. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I've been told that things are different in the UK, Germany, and the Netherlands.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    59. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      The interview is almost all about how the person will fit into our group, because the finalists can pretty much all do the job.

      We use a similar approach where I work. One of the easy culls from the resume pile is those people who don't list any hobbies or university extra curricular activities. If you're a boring person who doesn't do anything other than work, then we don't care how good you are.

    60. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by bky1701 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, until people in the Xs start getting tossed out. Then "Zander" works nicely, too.

      --
      Great Intellect...
    61. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by sinij · · Score: 1

      You are clearly being unreasonable by asking for references upfront. It is expected to let your references know what position you are applying for so they know who and when going to contact them, doing so for every "maybe" position is going to quickly use up their goodwill. Don't waste everybody's time - ask for references _only_ if you are serious about hiring your potential candidate.

    62. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by sinij · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Really? Are you hiring for entertainment industry? If not, hobbies (or any other part of personal life) has nothing to do with it and you might as well go with a "unlucky 50% approach" someone suggested above. Most people don't list any hobbies because it has nothing to do with your ability to do the job, and unless you are fresh graduate your resume space is better used for something else.

    63. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      I agree. There's just so much bullshit associated with higher education these days, from the application process, to the requisites for graduation, that I seriously question its rigor. It seems more about politics and memorization than creating and measuring ability in targeted fields, and I suspect the ivy leagues are the gravest offenders.

    64. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well maybe some old guys rock. I've seen ones that make huge mistakes just because they forget something, and a damn slow at everything they do. They have really forgotten more than I know. Sadly the amount seems in some cases be too close to everything they knew.

    65. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by Kozar_The_Malignant · · Score: 1

      I check references before I offer you the job, not before. But I do want to see them.

      --
      Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
    66. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Experienced programmers still need to learn your process, your frameworks, and in some cases even your language. They'll have had more practice learning, but on the down side they'll have more preconceived ideas about how things should work (some valuable, some just habit). The old guys who do things because this is how we've always done things are just as problematic as the young guys who do things because the latest buzzword methodology says they should.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    67. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Exactly and if you're the type to come to work sit in the corner get your job done and then piss off home while the rest of the company thinks you're a boring loner, we don't want you working here. There's nothing unlucky about it, all we want to know is that you have a life outside of your job, I don't care what your life is, as long as you don't live and breath your job.

      Your ability to do a job is only part of doing a job. Ability to interact and get a long well with co-workers is probably even more important than technical skill. The end result? My workplace has departments which go out for lunches at least monthly, the common area bbq gets used daily by some team or group to cook a massive feast, and daily you'll see some department huddled around over cake (which some departments have turned into an extravagant competition to see who can bake the best). We have clubs a plenty, photography clubs, car clubs, heck even a cooking club. Oh and we have a very low turnover and are rated as one of the most desirable places to work in the state.

      So ... come to think of it yes they really are an unlucky 50% if they get culled for something so basic.

    68. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by chrismcb · · Score: 1

      Isn't it enough that I went to college and built a solid base of good work I can point to that shows I can do the job?

      No
      How do I know it is your "solid base of good work?"
      I have been interviewing people for programming positions, almost as long as I've been a programmer myself. When I worked at a large company I used to interview college students. I was amazed at the number of straight A students who couldn't write simple code. Now I tend to interview people with a few years experience, and I am still amazed at how poor their programming skills our... Fizbuzz in action.

    69. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by Inda · · Score: 1

      That mirrors my experience.

      My contract with the job centre required than I send 3 CVs every week to the jobs they had on their board. Forget that I was sending more than that a day, to companies clever enough not to use the job centre.

      --
      This post contains benzene, nitrosamines, formaldehyde and hydrogen cyanide.
    70. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by tehcyder · · Score: 0

      Well put.

      The gag is that they learn just that at those management seminars. I kid you not, I was forced to sit through a few of this. It reminded me a lot of kindergarden. Essentially, what you do is sit around and play silly group games. A bunch of people getting to stand on a tiny carpet and have to turn the carpet around without getting off it. I get it, we can only do it if we work together and if some lead and some follow, can I now get out of the armpit of that fat bozo next to me?

      Let me guess, you keep getting passed over for promotion?

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    71. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      will fit into our group Be careful with that ... A sociopath is much better at playing the "social game" than a good professional whose only fault is being shy or reserved. And I believe you do not want to hire the sociopath.

      If you choose to act shy and reserved at work, you are going to get dumped on, simple as that. Whatevedr people like to pretend, work is a game that you have to do your best to navigate through.

      The key word in the two word phrase "successful sociopath" is the first one.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    72. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      just because someone has no college degree doesn't mean they're useless.

      No, but when so many people do have degrees, it's an easy option for employers to discard the CVs of people witthout one.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    73. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Really? Are you hiring for entertainment industry? If not, hobbies (or any other part of personal life) has nothing to do with it and you might as well go with a "unlucky 50% approach" someone suggested above. Most people don't list any hobbies because it has nothing to do with your ability to do the job, and unless you are fresh graduate your resume space is better used for something else.

      It depends on the cultural setting. Here in the UK, it would look very odd to receive a CV with no mention of outside interests, except in the following situation:

      "Well, er, yes Mr Anchovy, but you see your report here says that you are an extremely dull person. You see, our experts describe you as an appallingly dull fellow, unimaginative, timid, lacking in initiative, spineless, easily dominated, no sense of humour, tedious company and irrepressibly drab and awful. And whereas in most professions these would be considerable drawbacks, in chartered accountancy they are a positive boon."

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    74. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by tehcyder · · Score: 2

      Human beings take work seriously. The work they do is not just about bringing home a check.

      I don't take work seriously, and it is overwhelmingly about bringing home a check.

      In my experience it is the capitalists, corporatists and billionaires who place work at the centre of the universe.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    75. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Bullshit. Unions can't prevent management from firing bad performers, all they can do is protect people from being fired for trumped up reasons.

      People like you should try to remember whose side you're on.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    76. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Someday I want to start a company with a bunch of old, experienced, very very good programmers. We will all write solid, readable code, and get things done in an eighth of the time it takes everyone else. It will be wonderful.

      And your salary costs will be four times as much as your competitors.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    77. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      I get plenty of work, for the reasons in your last paragraph, I turn up at the right time each day and get on with it.

      It's probably also the way you sell yourself.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    78. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      While I agree that a bad hire is worse than an empty chair (most of the time, depending on how bad the hire is), here's the problems with your method.

      1)3 letters of reference with the application? First off, unless it's a mutual acquaintance recommendations are junk. If they aren't outright faked, then they're given by people who agreed to say how awesome the person is. Not worth the paper (or electrons) they're printed on. Secondly, nobody has these anymore. We have reference emails and phone numbers. You can contact them as you wish and ask whatever questions they'll answer. But I'm not going to give them to you until the last stage of the process, because I'm not going to bother them unless I think I want the job.

      2)Nowhere in here do you actually test for subject matter knowledge and skill. A resume doesn't show it, it can be faked. An interview or test (where you know they're doing it, a take home doesn't cut it) is necessary to find that.

      3)So you interviewed 5 people. At the standard rates I see, if you have anywhere near a decent hiring bar to get over, you'll get 1, maybe 2 you'd be willing to hire. Then there's a 50% chance or less they'll take your offer (they may want more money, they may get a better offer, they may decide not to change jobs after all, they may have decided no go in the last step).

      If you're getting a hire even the majority of the time with 5 interviews per opening, either you're hiring crap despite what you said or you're the luckiest man on earth. I lean towards the first, given the lack of a skill validation stage in your steps.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    79. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by AuMatar · · Score: 2

      Unless my hobby has something directly related to my job, I wouldn't even list it. Why does someone hiring me for a programming job care that I lead a video game guild? It's irrelevant, and looks unprofessional. And truthfully I'm pressed for space in just listing what I've done in 11 years, I don't have room in a standard 2 page resume to go into that depth (and nobody reads beyond page 2).

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    80. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by TheDarkMaster · · Score: 1

      You do not choose to be shy, "genius". And if your hypothetical company prefers a sociopath than a good professional because the former is more sociable than the second, good luck. You will need ...

      --
      Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
    81. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2

      I don't take work seriously, and it is overwhelmingly about bringing home a check.

      I think you're mistaking "work" for "career". Most everyone I know takes some pride in their work. They do a "good job" even when nobody is watching.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    82. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      The bin method is underrated.

      The problem I see with the video game thing is not the fact that it is probably irrelevant and little better than random at best. It's that it's insulting, particularly to anyone over the age of 17 and grossly insulting to people with a few years of real-world experience. It might even be regarded as an age-biased method, which could lead to accusations and lawsuits. It's must better to let any random or possibly irrelevant sorting go on behind closed doors.

      Your goal in hiring (and I say this as a hiring manager) is not to hire the very best possible person for the job. That's an impossible goal anyway because you can't judge who the best person is anyway. (It only becomes apparent that the person is great or not so great after they've been on the job for a while and you've had an opportunity to see if they really know their shit, work well with others, etc.) You also have a limited amount of manhours that it makes sense to spend picking a great candidate. So step one is you use any method (preferably one with some slight correlation to the skills or experience the job demands) to thin the herd. At best, the first cut is going to be little better than random.

      With a large number of resumes, take any statistically significant number or resumes out of the pile -- thirty or more -- and you can be assured that you have at least one person in the subset who's substantially better than the average of all the resumes in the original set. And that's good enough. Now your job is to find that one or few persons and pick any or all of THEM.

    83. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      You could do worse. PPs have all the requisite attributes to be better than average HR people.

    84. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by damien_kane · · Score: 1

      Assuming that belief in "luck" is, in fact, a sane belief.

      PROTIP: It's a half-step above consulting chicken entrails.

      Pierson's Puppeteers were quite sane (s/sane/cowardly/g), and did believe in luck, such that they tried to breed it for their Ringworld expidition

    85. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by TrogL · · Score: 1

      I have been behind the hiring table confronted with candidates with computing science degrees who could write a sorter to beat the band. I don't need them. My operating system has a "sort" command that works just fine. I need someone who actually understands business and systems and how to write code to make these work. These people didn't have a clue.

    86. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Listing it on a CV is foreign to me. This may be a culture gap thing but I've never seen an interview process that has required me to condense my life into 2 pages. Heck most of the jobs I've seen have been the opposite, a multi-section application with lots of "In 250 words or less explain ...." bits. I don't think they actually read my CV for my current job.

      But as for why we care that you lead a video game guild? We wouldn't. What we do care about is that you actually have an interest outside of work. People who make their work their life (dull and boring people) interact in a very similar manner to those who don't like what they do. People who pursue active interests outside of work typically seem to be better at forming personal relationships in the workplace, which if you work in a place full of bureaucracy can be more important than technical ability in some ways.

    87. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by s122604 · · Score: 1

      A sort? Seriously? I looked at this comment and asked myself if I could write a simple bubble off the top of my head. I muddled my way through it, so I guess I would have "passed". But I do know that there are much better implementations of the sort algorithm. but its been 10 years since i took data structures, and I doubt I could s ruble out a heap sort in the middle of an interview.The thing is I don't write sort implementations every day. Smart people have done this for me, that is the beauty of OO and generics.

    88. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      You are either an utter liar, or have no clue how things work in the real world. Sorry.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    89. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I've been teaching programming languages to people at my company for the last six months. Age seems to be irrelevant in how well/quickly people learn.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    90. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by RobertLTux · · Score: 1

      resume in PDF format only = automatic discard (if it is a picture type PDF since you can rip the text out in a text type PDF)

      --
      Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
    91. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not for testing your knowledge of work-related abilities. You finished college. We know you are as solid as anyone else. This is for testing your capacity to assume work-irrelevant tasks with humility, precision and even appreciation; the material all good perspective slav...employees should be made of.

    92. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by company+suckup · · Score: 0

      When hundreds or a thousand apply for a job you begin requiring a Masters degree for the position, thus winnowing down the applicant pool. Voila! Problem solved.

    93. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by mbkennel · · Score: 1

      "It seems more about politics and memorization than creating and measuring ability in targeted fields, and I suspect the ivy leagues are the gravest offenders."

      Have you talked to a large number of Ivy League graduates recently compared to other schools?

    94. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by mbkennel · · Score: 1

      "I think you're missing the point. The job market for programmers is changing, in Silicon Valley there are now far more positions than programmers. These guys aren't trying to rule out bad programmers, they are trying to attract good ones.'

      No, they're trying to rule out programmers older than 27 who think this is preposterous BS.

    95. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Other way around, the management (in the US) cut their own throats when they made it hard to live as a worker by American expectations

      Yes, the "American expectation" is much higher than most of the world. Some expectations might even be downright ridiculous.

      But this is where the management cut their own throats a second time, because it is them who greatly helped raised and set those expectations. They do this in two parts. One part is the management and CEOs keep getting compensated more - they can't just pay salary anymore, they need stock. And corporations always seem to get the laws in their favor, leading to cries of corporatocracy.

      The other part is that they would antagonize and drown out competing expectations. Almost anything that does not align with their expectations can be twisted as some form of socialism out to destroy America

      When you do that enough, more people start to expect the same things you (the management) expect. So the workers are now exhibiting the same attitude of always expecting more and never backing down until you get it.

    96. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by ironjaw33 · · Score: 1

      Isn't it enough that I went to college and built a solid base of good work I can point to that shows I can do the job?

      No. That is not enough. I have interviewed many, many people with degrees in computer science who cannot write a program to sort an array of ten integers. Those with a "solid base of good work" often cannot explain any of it, and will eventually admit it was done as a team project.

      If you want to work for me, you will have to prove you can write code by writing code.

      Asking me in an interview to sort an array of ten integers has almost nothing to do with whatever work I'll be performing. It's a quaint little puzzle that's no better than using an SAT question to judge a prospective college student's future performance. There are people who study these programming puzzles for months so they can ace them in an interview, but these applicants' abilities to solve puzzle problems says nothing about their ability to work as a team or ability to work on long term projects involving millions of lines of code.

      Instead, ask me all the details you want about large scale systems I've designed and implemented. Ask me how I would design and implement a particular system that's relevant to the job I'm applying for. Ask me about projects I've led. However, when I get the puzzle questions, I know the interviewer can't see the forest for the trees.

    97. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I was CISO. I guess there's little room on top of that unless you allow them to replace your brains with a BA major.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    98. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by lwriemen · · Score: 1

      You forgot the new ideas part of the equation. New perspectives can often bring new ideas. Of course, this doesn't necessarily require a certain age range. I've seen a lot of companies with aging work forces, whose primary problem is that they are stuck in a less than optimal development configuration. They look for more people rather than more efficiency, even though changing their development configuration would be many times more profitable. i.e., they are blind to the real need.

    99. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by lwriemen · · Score: 1

      I haven't been programming professionally long enough to have a really good perspective on the overall market

      Programming isn't about the market. The market chases it's tail. Good programmers become software engineers, because they eventually get tired of chasing their tail. They realize that learning something new to make their code a little better pales in comparison to applying known processes to make their code a lot better. Unfortunately, the number of bad programmers vastly outweighs the number of good programmers. This is why the number of (3GL) programming languages has exploded. The bad programmers are looking for a fix at the wrong level of abstraction, and they are wasting a lot of good programmers' time.

    100. Re:Dance, monkey, dance! by forrestrunning · · Score: 1

      As a Tech Lead dealing with hiring regularly, I've seen my share of completely misplaced claims by candidates and vote this up a hundred times; academic credentials and programming certifications are barely a starting point and are no way guaranteeing any level of proficiency. Sometimes I don't even wait for candidates to solve the problems, watching them start coding with some sense is good enough. I've found that few resumes mentioning scores from open source code aggregators (like Careers 2.0) have been mostly good picks. CV compilation / presentation for IT is slowly but surely evolving from 'I know these' to 'I've done these'.

  2. I guess that makes sense by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We've been asking for a meritocracy for a long time, now. How do you expect to prove your merit without some kind of testing?

    On the plus side, if you try to go to work for a beer bar you can always just play tapper. Or the minigame in Fable.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    1. Re:I guess that makes sense by Shoten · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A meritocracy is about the merits of what you do...this manifests itself in the hiring process as a 'resume'. Obviously, if you haven't been hired yet, you can't stand on the merits of what you have done for the prospective employer yet, so instead it's all about the merits of what you have done for past employers. But this has nothing to do with playing a video game, especially one that uses a fairly arbitrary skill to determine success. I agree that it'd be useful to have fair, objective and broadly applicable metrics for hiring decisions. But at the end of the day, jobs differ enormously, and so do the required skills, suitable temperaments, and even desirable personality traits. And often those factors differ for the same job, when different companies are compared, due to cultural or organizational differences.

      --

      For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
    2. Re:I guess that makes sense by blackraven14250 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The thing is that the example in the summary has a clear application to a specific job (bar tending), not general applicability to all jobs. I could see lots of games like this being created for different professions, and used as a skills check before letting someone work. For this one in particular, it answers a couple of the most important questions for a bartender. Can you manage a bunch of people's needs at once effectively? Do you know the mixed drinks? Those two are the sorts of skills that are hard to quantify via an interview alone, and someone can exhibit them for the employer to see while playing the game.

    3. Re:I guess that makes sense by Osgeld · · Score: 2

      depends on what your future employee wants, if they want someone who will do anything, no matter how ridiculous the request, and never even bat an eye, this this monkey yes-man test is perfect.

      The one I went though recently though is much more realistic, working though a temp agency with no promises for 4 months to prove I could do the job and that I was a good fit ... not that I could fuck off on a computer playing video games.

      I am now a full employee

    4. Re:I guess that makes sense by Man+of+E · · Score: 2

      There is a startup called Hire Art http://www.hireart.com/ that's doing something similar without the "gamification". Instead of playing a game like in the article, or going to the other extreme and requiring full-scale work samples, they have smaller-scale tests related to the required skills, including reading comprehension, basic numeracy/statistics, and more technical tests. An employer can choose modules and put together a short test to identify the skills they're looking for. Some tests can be graded automatically, and others are reviewed by humans.

      The method in the article is tricky, because creating games for specific jobs is going to be quite time-consuming and psychologically complex. These games are good for hiring bartenders, but what if you want to hire drivers, or data-entry staff, or IT professionals? All different skills and you can't expect to know every business as well as the hiring manager.

      So the HireArt approach seems like a good middle ground me: the tests are a slight barrier to the applicant so they don't send millions of copies of their resume hoping to "get lucky" on a job that isn't a match; anyone qualified shouldn't have trouble passing. Meanwhile, both the employer and applicant get a chance to make a first impression without taking too much of each others' time.

      From what I hear, it seems to be working quite well so far. Applicants who get interviews are more likely to be good fits.

      Disclosure: I know one of the company's founders

      --
      Ceci n'est pas une sig
    5. Re:I guess that makes sense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is, a lot of skills can't be readily simulated. And what if some applicant finds an exploit?

    6. Re:I guess that makes sense by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      A meritocracy is about the merits of what you do...this manifests itself in the hiring process as a 'resume'.

      So if I write ".net programmer with 20 years of experience" on my resume, it is true? AWESOME!

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    7. Re:I guess that makes sense by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Instead of playing a game like in the article, or going to the other extreme and requiring full-scale work samples, they have smaller-scale tests related to the required skills, including reading comprehension, basic numeracy/statistics, and more technical tests.

      So, just to be clear, there's a puzzle which has to be solved to move on to the next level, where you attain employment?

      Congratulations, you have just presented an example of gamification as a counter-example.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    8. Re:I guess that makes sense by blackraven14250 · · Score: 1

      The exploit issue is non-existant if it's part of the interview process and monitored. The skills issue is larger, but it can be overcome for the positions where you would want to use this kind of software.

  3. Globalization by mwfischer · · Score: 5, Funny

    Muslim... water
    Buddhist... water
    Hindu... water
    Seventh Day.... water
    Mormon... actually lost, needs directions

    What do I win?

    1. Re:Globalization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For the young Amish it would be a Whiskey. He/She is on a Rumspringa.

  4. fuck me, this is retarded by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    who's the idiot psychologist who put them onto this shit?

    1. Re:fuck me, this is retarded by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      One how knows you can sell bullshit to idiots, maybe?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  5. Was TFA ... by PPH · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ... referring to a job interview for a job as a bartender? Otherwise, what's the point?

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
    1. Re:Was TFA ... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Well, if you can remember a hundred cocktails and recite the ingredients without looking them up, chances are that you're drinking a lot and that I don't want to hire you because it's likely you'll come in on Mondays with a hangover.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:Was TFA ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, I did my best work on those Monday's!!!

      I was in the wrong office, but that's not the point...

    3. Re:Was TFA ... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I wrote some of my best code drunk. The comments, otoh, weren't too useful...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  6. And how by Janek+Kozicki · · Score: 3, Insightful

    is that related to any skills you might need at work?

    --
    #
    #\ @ ? Colonize Mars
    #
    1. Re:And how by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Obey stupid commands, do meaningless tasks and amuse your superiors?

    2. Re:And how by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Do you get hired if you don't bother washing the glass for someone who is obviously drunk enough not to notice?

    3. Re:And how by artor3 · · Score: 1

      Depends on the job, obviously. Doctors probably get asked questions about lymph nodes, which I'm sure is equally irrelevant to your work. Would you like to complain about that, as well?

  7. My personal experience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    For years my quiz bowl teacher tested membership based on an untimed written test. I made the quiz bowl team each time, and was captain during the one time when I can recall spending a lot of time after everyone else had finished putting down my answers. Our team only performed remarkably well during its first existence, when it was a different teacher and the team had been composed of a different set of people (I can't recall the evaluation process). I was on that team, but contributed no answers to a 2nd place tournament finish. Whereas the best we ever did after that was 4th. In fact, during one of those days with the new teacher, I can recall that we had a fun match between quiz bowl players and other kids in the gifted program and we got beaten. So in this case, the untimed written test served as a poor evaluation for who would be actually good at playing quiz bowl.

    Hence, I would imagine this game would serve as a great way for someone to recognize faces and memorize drinks, but would be a poor way to evaluate whether a clumsy person could actually tend the bar.

    1. Re:My personal experience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yup. Saw the same thing with our team. Those who were thoughtful and took care to hear, understand, and correctly answer a question got clobbered by those who blurted out the first thing that came to mind.

      But this line in the article caught my eye:

      Bain & Company, a consultancy, is to run a pilot: it will start by getting current staff to play the games

      How interesting would it be to do a blind test of staff and compare their performance reviews with the results of this test?

  8. Domino's PIzza game - job by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Late to the game. Domino's in my area already advertises an iPad game where you "make" a pizza. I guess if you are "good" enough at some point that qualifies as both the job application, interview, and job offer.

    Sad.

    1. Re:Domino's PIzza game - job by jittles · · Score: 1

      Please. Domino's pizza has used video games to hire people for YEARS! If you can't beat Avoid The Noid, you don't belong at Domino's! Enough said!

    2. Re:Domino's PIzza game - job by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Hey, it weeds out the people who can't hit the pizza with the pepperoni.

      Sadly, given the qualification of the average employee, that's necessary to test...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  9. What are they measuring? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    They only thing these games will find are people who are good at playing video games based upon a real job. It would be like hiring pilots on how well they play a flight simulator.

    Unfortunately, this will probably take off - business folks follow trends like teenagers follow fads. All you need is one bigshot to say that this is so great and everyone will jump on the bandwagon. For example, the hiring fad of asking stupid questions to see "how the candidates thinks". Like this one time, this recruiter asked, "How many disposable diapers are sold per year?"

    What do you think the right answer is?

    1. Google it or google how many children under the age of typical potty trained age.

    2. Or, pull a number out of your ass about how many babies are born every year and how many are under a certain age, make up a percentage of who wear disposable diapers and do the math.

    Answer 2 was the "right" answer. Personally, if someone working for me made shit up and invested resources on numbers out of their ass, I'd be pissed.

    Anyway, employers are always looking for that magic bullet to find the best of the best of the best.

    1. Re:What are they measuring? by bunratty · · Score: 1

      If you can't come up with a resaonable estimate yourself, how can you trust the information you get from whatever website Google pulls up? I'm glad that employers are starting to see whether prospective employees can actually think for themselves. It's the same reason I'm glad the SAT has a writing section, and the GRE has a section on analytical reasoning that isn't just solving contrived puzzles.

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    2. Re:What are they measuring? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I cannot come up with a reasonable estimate of the amount of diapers being sold because it's something I never ever had to consider. I can discriminate between insane and sane answers (It will neither be 10 nor 10 trillions), but aside of that, how should I know? I don't give a shit about babies, even less about baby shit.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:What are they measuring? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When it can cost $12,000 for the first 30 minutes in a Boeing 727 plus airport fees, I think they'll use sims for a long time. Some airports charge for every landing.

  10. Brogrammers wanted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Applicants will be tested on their knowledge of cocktails and lines from road trip movies.

  11. Spotted under the useless "You May Like To Read" by pongo000 · · Score: 1


    Gaming Cliches That Need To Die
    Submission: Gamification of Hiring

    How apropos.

  12. The Last Starfigher by severett · · Score: 5, Informative

    In other words someone watched The Last Starfighter. Not exactly a new concept.

    1. Re:The Last Starfigher by cffrost · · Score: 1

      In other words someone watched The Last Starfighter. Not exactly a new concept.

      Considering the human degradation involved here, I thought maybe these employers had watched Bumfights .

      --
      Thank you, Edward Snowden.

      "Arguments from authority are worthless." —Carl Sagan
    2. Re:The Last Starfigher by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, but between that one and Tron, I spent way too much time on a C64 and at the arcades hoping one or the other would prove true ^^

    3. Re:The Last Starfigher by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      In other words someone watched The Last Starfighter. Not exactly a new concept.

      Also recall the Stargate Universe pilot.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
  13. What about learning? by utkonos · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Do you look at how the candidate plays the game after three or four times? Or perhaps you let the candidate play the game for a day, then look at their performance the next day. Are they still not very good at the game, or have they mastered the game?

    I would be much more interested in hiring someone who can master the game in a short period of time than someone who passes some lower standard instantly, but stays at that level.

    1. Re:What about learning? by bickerdyke · · Score: 1

      Well, those games might be perfect to find out those things.

      --
      bickerdyke
  14. It looks like the answer here ... by dbIII · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It looks like the answer here is to keep HR away from the bartender and cut off the cocaine supply to those that let them run with this idea.

  15. Re:The USA is a degrading place to live by lennier1 · · Score: 1

    The rest of the world isn't that much better. Just nuke the whole fucking planet and call it a day.

  16. I know, RTFA is taboo here, but FTFA . . . by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 3, Informative

    "Happy Hour, which will be unveiled to the public on May 28th, is one of several video games developed by Knack, a start-up founded by Guy Halfteck, an Israeli entrepreneur. The games include a version of Happy Hour in which sushi replaces booze, Words of Wisdom (a word game) and Balloon Brigade (which involves putting out fires with balloons and water). They are designed to test cognitive skills that employers might want, drawing on some of the latest scientific research. These range from pattern recognition to emotional intelligence, risk appetite and adaptability to changing situations."

    "According to Chris Chabris of the Centre for Collective Intelligence at MIT, a member of the Knack team, games have huge advantages over traditional recruitment tools, such as personality tests, which can easily be outwitted by an astute candidate."

    "Some firms seem to see the potential. The GameChanger unit of Shell, which seeks out new disruptive technologies for the oil giant, is about to test if Knack can help it identify innovators. Bain & Company, a consultancy, is to run a pilot: it will start by getting current staff to play the games, to see which skills make for a successful consultant. (The ability to charge a lot for stating the obvious is presumably not one of them.) “If someone can materially improve our ability to select the best talent, that is worth a lot to us,” says Mark Howorth, a recruiter at Bain. And if not, at least the process will be fun."

    This might clear up some questions about what this is all about.

    --
    Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    1. Re:I know, RTFA is taboo here, but FTFA . . . by hairyfish · · Score: 1

      "Some firms seem to see the potential. The GameChanger unit of Shell, which seeks out new disruptive technologies for the oil giant, is about to test if Knack can help it identify innovators. Bain & Company, a consultancy, is to run a pilot: it will start by getting current staff to play the games, to see which skills make for a successful consultant

      If they ever decide to use Fear Combat as the game, you're all fucked. I will be CEO within the week.

  17. Personnel selection is hard. by slasho81 · · Score: 2

    Personnel selection is an extremely hard problem. Sorting out people for jobs is one of the most important problems organizations face. It's almost always unrecognized in its complexity, and the majority of decision makers are unaware of the current process's inefficiency and ineffectiveness.

    The solution the startup in the post offers is preposterous and obviously ineffective. It's also downright insulting to prospective employees. A degrading selection process will have a negative effect on the quality of the prospective candidate pool you'll have.

    If you take into account current research findings and practicality, the best you can do today to select someone for a job is:

    1. Only consider candidates with a respectable educational certificate (i.e. those with quality education, either academic or vocational).

    2. Let candidates perform a sample of the job they're interviewing for. Score their performance objectively. Select the highest performers.

    That's it. No interviews, assessment centers, theoretical exams, references, past job experience, resume screening, etc. They're all worthless and impractical.

    1. Re:Personnel selection is hard. by Surt · · Score: 1

      I've always found past job experience + #2 for confirmation to be best. Better, even, than #1 + #2, for anything other than entry level.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    2. Re:Personnel selection is hard. by Red_Chaos1 · · Score: 1

      #1 is retarded. The guy fresh out of school with a piece of paper will not have the breadth and depth of knowledge a guy who has been doing it for over a decade will. Real life knowledge generally trumps book knowledge.

    3. Re:Personnel selection is hard. by slasho81 · · Score: 1

      The problems with past job experience:

      • * It's hard to verify and therefore heavily fudged. If you select using a heavily and easily fudged indicator, you're just fooling yourself.
      • * Unless the job position is exactly the same as was previously occupied, which is rarely the case, the past experience may not be relevant and it usually isn't.
      • * The fact that candidates have past job experience doesn't indicate whether they were any good at the job. They could have been terrible at the job and got fired, which is why they're now applying to your organization.
      • * And finally and most importantly, requiring past job experience deters or outright rejects capable candidates. Those candidates can be just as capable as those with job experience and they're way cheaper (they're young and eager).
    4. Re:Personnel selection is hard. by slasho81 · · Score: 1

      See my other reply regarding past job experience.

      The purpose of respectable credentials is to serve as a general quality cutoff point for filtering the candidate pool. Sure, we've all seen great workers without any credentials and terrible workers with plenty of respectable credentials, but those are exceptional anecdotes, not the rule. The group of candidates with respectable credentials are, as a group, much better on every dimension than those without. So it's practical to use respectable credentials as a filter to get the candidate pool to a manageable size.

      For job positions which attract only few candidates, you can't and shouldn't use credentials as a filtering tool, obviously.

    5. Re:Personnel selection is hard. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Personnel selection is an extremely hard problem.

      Only if you are not able to sort out the job the applicant needs to do yourself.

    6. Re:Personnel selection is hard. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He did not say "fresh out of school with a piece of paper." He said have "a respectable educational certificate." One can have a respectable educational certificate even if one is not fresh out of school. You are comparing apples (experience) to oranges (education).

    7. Re:Personnel selection is hard. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Real life knowledge generally trumps book knowledge.

      Is just something retards with low IQs say.

    8. Re:Personnel selection is hard. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's easy to tell you've never hired anyone before; your process fails to screen for personality dysfunctions.

    9. Re:Personnel selection is hard. by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      My last IQ test wants to have a word with you.

      I have both, a well rounded education and quite a bit of experience, but if I had to choose between them, I'd take the latter. Anyone can get that sheet of toilet paper called master's degree.

      I notice it in every other job interview...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    10. Re:Personnel selection is hard. by Surt · · Score: 1

      For your last point, that's why I made the clarifying comment about using education for entry level. I strongly disagree with past experience being hard to verify. Sure, the exact details may be hard to verify, what you can verify is whether or not they developed the expected level of skill in the given amount of time. If I ask for 5 years of java experience, that's really a proxy for having developed core competency with the language (along with some of the technologies in the ecosystem), and that's what I'll test for in the actual interview.

      People who get fired for incompetence or social problems are both pretty easy to pick out in an interview.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    11. Re:Personnel selection is hard. by TrogL · · Score: 1

      I got hired despite a personality dysfunction (adverse to socialization). I even raised it at the interview. The reply - "You're a boffin. I know how to deal with boffins."

    12. Re:Personnel selection is hard. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your ideas are pretty good for hiring people at entry level jobs in that most candidates you choose by this method should be trainable, but nobody with real world experience hiring skilled labor puts a college degree before evidence that they can actually do the job. Faked college experience is also common, and as many highly educated people will tell you, a degree is a poor way to determine real critical thinking skills.

    13. Re:Personnel selection is hard. by slasho81 · · Score: 1

      See my other reply in this thread. Respectable certificates are a filtering tool, not evidence one can do the job. That's what the job sample part is for.

  18. Pan-Galactic Gargle Blaster by drumlight · · Score: 1

    I've never failed to get a job after serving the interviewer with a Gargle Blaster and despite the reoccurring dreams noticing I'm half naked in the middle of the interview has never been a hindrance.
    On the other hand being over qualified, under qualified or just plain nervous have been problems. I'm glad it turns out that in these cases the interviewer was in the wrong rather than myself.

  19. what about more apprenticeships / tech schools by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    what about more apprenticeships / tech schools where you can test people on real skills and have tests based on real work.

    Also you don't want tests that people can ace by cramming but don't know about stuff the test covers.

  20. also don't use Degrees by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    so what happens when you get people who get a good score on the test but then get told they don't have a Degree so you end taking some with a Degree and a very low score on the test.

    1. Re:also don't use Degrees by kwoff · · Score: 1

      Getting a degree is just a different game. Thanks for not playing!

  21. Re:The USA is a degrading place to live by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can we start with your home town?

  22. personality tests can trip up good peopel with the by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    personality tests can trip up good people with there odd questions.

    OK now asking the same thing over and over is there to see if you answer the same why but some times changing the question can change the answer.

    also border line questions are hard to find out what they want the answer to be.

  23. pilots use full size flight simulators by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    pilots use full size flight simulators and you can simulate lot's real work in them.

  24. Basically WTF by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    WTF is this load of bollocks other than exactly that a load of bollocks getting a job is fuckall to do with a game some right wanker needs his dick removing and shoving donw the windpipe it would then become a wankpipe very apt

  25. Re:The USA is a degrading place to live by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > Just nuke the whole fucking planet and call it a day.
    It's the only way to be sure.

  26. Recently on Halfbakery: 3D Study Maze by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Gamification of studies can be good for you: 3D Study Maze - Computer game for students: theory on the walls, problem solutions unlock the doors.

  27. Interesting concept with one small flaw... by interval1066 · · Score: 1

    Sounds very similar to OMG POP, ostensibly a geek singles site wherein contestants play games for the right to woo the game hoster. Members (free reg) can host "game rooms" populated by up to about 5 or other members, and the "hoster" can pick from a large list of games. Popular is a game very similar to "Draw Something" for smart phones. The problem was, at least for me, even after winning a game it wasn't clear to me how to contact the "hoster", nor how to even know that I was inteterested in the user. These "game rooms" come and go very quickly, so doing research on the "hoster" is a bit of a hurried chore. I quickly grew tired of it opting for more traditional singles sites. Interesting concept but not really practical in my opinion.

    On a different, but related note, employers who use a complex task/test to filter out canidates put them selves at a disadvantage for a very similar reason; while looking for gigs I recently was asked by one prospect to build a PHP shopping cart apllication from scratch. After spending several hours on the project I got a call from another prospect whoh just wanted me to jump in and get something done. Guess which employer I picked?

    --
    Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
  28. Trainers by koekebakker · · Score: 1

    Aren't there any 'trainers' that can help sollicitants play this game? I know there used to be for Simcity and GTA..

    1. Re:Trainers by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Maybe that's the goal? Find out what people are able to beat the game by not playing but gaming it?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  29. They're NOT reasonable that's thing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you can't come up with a resaonable estimate yourself, how can you trust the information you get from whatever website

    EVERYONE came up with numbers that were ridiculously wrong; which showed the screening technique is horribly flawed and moronic.

    I'm glad that employers are starting to see whether prospective employees can actually think for themselves.

    Having someone solve a puzzle would show that - pulling numbers out of your ass doesn't.

    It's the same reason I'm glad the SAT has a writing section, and the GRE has a section on analytical reasoning that isn't just solving contrived puzzles.

    THOSE problems give data and numbers to solve - as if you were to look them up on google - there isn't any guessing involved. Two different things. If you did what those folks did asking questions like the diaper one above, you would FAIL those exams.

    Good grief. That was a very poor attempt at justifying a ridiculous hiring process and makes me glad - even with the extremely difficult time I going through now - that I'm running my own business and that I don't have to put up with such idiocy anymore.

  30. End run around the ADA? by subreality · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Your challenge is to tell what sort of drink each of a swelling mob of customers wants by the expressions on their faces

    That sounds to me like they want to filter out Aspergers / autism spectrum applicants, but they can't actually say that since it'd violate the ADA, so this test lets them accomplish that in a legally deniable way.

    1. Re:End run around the ADA? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which is stupid, because applicants with Aspergers / autism spectrum tend to have better programming skills than the general public (who would perform better at the game requiring them to identify facial expressions).

  31. Re:Principle by TaoPhoenix · · Score: 5, Funny

    "The Perter Principal Lives!"
    You have risen to your level of spelling incompetence.

    --
    My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
  32. Discrimination suit waiting to happen... by He+Who+Has+No+Name · · Score: 2

    ...from somebody who doesn't drink or go to bars and therefore has no familiarity with mixed drinks or the culture of bar attendance. Like, say, Mormons, Muslims, or... eh, me.

    1. Re:Discrimination suit waiting to happen... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is "the way you like to party" a protected class?

  33. Discrimination by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sexuality has no place in hiring.

  34. Re:Principle by sycodon · · Score: 1

    LOL!

    Why Yes, yes I did.

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
  35. The gamification of... by gagol · · Score: 2

    Or how to manage a peter pan generation that just don't want to grow up and work.

    --
    Tomorrow is another day...
    1. Re:The gamification of... by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      Guilty as charged, except for the fact that I'd rather have a nice, difficult interview rather than some retarded piece of "gamification". Keep adulthood in its damned place! "Gamification" doesn't just mean childish stupidity pollutes adult endeavors, it means adult exploitation pollutes childish fun.

  36. It always gets down to 3 girls by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And the first one to make me cum gets the job.

    It's pretty much the same thing.

  37. This is Country-sensitive... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Such a game might be embraced by heavy-drinking countries, eg, AU or UK... but it wouldn't work in places like Malaysia.

    Moreover, if alcohol-fueled lands adopted it, it certainly wouldn't help their companies' relations (or, presumably, their sales) into tea-totaller lands.

    Enjoy the game if you like it, but be fore-warned about consequences of using it seriously in HR.

  38. Re:The USA is a degrading place to live by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Let's burn it down and start over.

    No need. We're destroying ourselves via the slow boil method, and it's already up to plenty hot.

  39. no familiarity with mixed drinks or the culture of by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    no familiarity with mixed drinks or the culture of bar attendance and you want to be a bar tender??

  40. Board games count better by Kittenman · · Score: 2

    Many a year ago (back when I started out: clue - I bought the Joe Walsh LP with 'Life's been good' on it on the same trip...) I got interviewed by employers in the UK. On my CV (which was thin in those days) I'd put that I played boardgames. The interviewers asked why this was relevant. Thinking on my feet, I replied that it showed experience in conflict resolution and teamwork. I think it did, and I still do.

    Not sure why a PC/video game would show that the player had teamwork. Maybe the potential employer would be better off sitting the candidates around a 'Diplomacy' board and coming back in three hours. And not necessarily hiring the winner, but the one that
    a) Everyone got along with
    b) Did ok, considering the starting position
    c) Didn't argue every *&^%ing point ...

    and yes, I got the job.

    --
    "The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes" - Winston Churchill
    1. Re:Board games count better by hairyfish · · Score: 1

      Not sure why a PC/video game would show that the player had teamwork.

      Never played CTF?

    2. Re:Board games count better by tokul · · Score: 1

      I played boardgames. The interviewers asked why this was relevant. Thinking on my feet, I replied that it showed experience in conflict resolution and teamwork. I think it did, and I still do.

      It depends on your board game and your playing style. Monopoly is also a board game and you win the game by ousting others. Monopoly player is not team player.

  41. Not good enough. by thegarbz · · Score: 1

    Isn't it enough that I went to college and built a solid base of good work I can point to that shows I can do the job?

    No that's not good enough. Pretty much anyone with a degree could do that job. Employers want people who are not only good at what they do but show great team skills, interact well with people, and are generally a pleasure to work with. Some other skills such as negotiating or good presenting abilities are also desirable. You can't show that on your CV.

    This is nothing new. Many many years ago when I applied for a job we were put through a similar activity. It was one of those lose-lose group scenarios where every solution sucked. They didn't care what solution the group came to, but straight away if you didn't say anything you ended up on a reject pile, if you didn't listen to other's point of view, onto the reject pile you go, if you folded every time you were confronted, ... REJECT.

    Your degree shows your technical excellence. Activities, interviews and games such as this show the other 80% of what employers look for.

  42. Men In Black applicant test by wisebabo · · Score: 1

    Too bad this test is probably not nearly as entertaining as the one in which Will Smith, confronted with a street full of "snarling"(?) aliens, shoots the little schoolgirl carrying books right between the eyes. Which presumably was the right thing to do as it demonstrated creative(?) thinking.

    He, of course, got the job. By the way, anyone see the new MIB 3 yet? Is it any good?

  43. No bartending problem here. by a-zA-Z0-9$_.+!*'(),x · · Score: 1

    Give em all longnecks. Heineken for the suits, Bud for the blue collars. No glass, no cleaning, then take a nap.

    --
    Epitaph: At last! Root access!
  44. Interview, or take the physical challenge? by Eightbitgnosis · · Score: 1

    Maybe one day we will be reduced to Double Dare style obstacle course to secure a job?

  45. CTF? by dutchwhizzman · · Score: 1

    Is this one of those CTF challenges where you have to find the flaw in the coding so you can gain shell on the server? Is the flag the e-mail address where you send in your resume?

    --
    I was promised a flying car. Where is my flying car?
  46. Re:The USA is a degrading place to live by tehcyder · · Score: 1

    The rest of the world isn't that much better. Just nuke the whole fucking planet and call it a day.

    Always nice to hear from our more junior members.

    --
    To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  47. One guy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe one guy with a stellear resume will give them a look of indignation and turn to walk out. Just as he reaches for the door they say, "you're hired".

  48. Re:The Terrorists Won The War by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    You are the only one talking about mind control. You are the one that would benefit from suicide.

    --
    Learn to love Alaska
  49. finally an online Tapper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Budweiser and then Root Beer Tapper are my favorite arcade games, and the article doesnt even link to them? poppycock.