US Ordered To Hand Over Megaupload Documents

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US Ordered To Hand Over Megaupload Documents

Posted by Soulskill on Tuesday May 29, 2012 @07:22PM from the hope-you-didn't-break-anything dept.

An anonymous reader writes "A judge in New Zealand has ordered the U.S. government to hand over evidence seized in the Megaupload raid so Kim Dotcom and his co-defendants can use it to prepare a defense for an extradition hearing. The judge wrote, 'Actions by and on behalf of the requesting State have deprived Mr. Dotcom and his associates of access to records and information. ... United States is attempting to utilize concepts from the civil copyright context as a basis for the application of criminal copyright liability [which] necessitates a consideration of principles such as the dual use of technology and what they be described as significant non-infringing uses.' Once the defense attorneys have gathered and presented their evidence, the judge must decide whether the U.S. can make a reasonable case against Dotcom."

40 of 242 comments (clear)

Dear USA by overbaud · 2012-05-29 19:25 · Score: 5, Insightful

Please leave the rest of the world alone. Thankyou.

--
Users... the only thing keeping 1st level support from being the bottom feeders.
1. Re:Dear USA by mechtech256 · 2012-05-29 20:09 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  New Zealand is responsible for what they do in their own backyard with their own police forces. If they want to surrender their sovereignty to a bunch of RIAA/MPAA hacks who have paid off the right people, that's their prerogative. It's obvious that they've realized the mistake and are trying to make things right, but in the end it's NZ that screwed up here.
2. Re:Dear USA by The+Master+Control+P · 2012-05-29 20:17 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  You know, manufacturing in the US has actually kept going up ever since the 80s. It just doesn't employ anyone any more because it's more cost effective to pay an engineer here to design an automated shop that employs 10 people instead of 500.
3. Re:Dear USA by Anonymous Coward · 2012-05-29 21:11 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  Have you tried to use a puck mouse?
  Someone HAD to be high for that one.
4. Re:Dear USA by baileydau · 2012-05-29 21:14 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  The US produces very little? It's incredibly obvious to tell you're trolling with statements like that.
  Actually from my point of view, I'd have to agree with the GP.
  I can't think of a single item I own that was actually made in USA. I own plenty of stuff made by US companies, but as far as I'm aware not on US soil.
  At one stage I thought my mountain bike was actually made in the US, but then I found a sticker that disproved that (can't remember where it said now)
  A brief survey of most stuff I own indicates that most of it came from China, followed by Taiwan and various other Asian countries.
  That's one of the big issues I see with the "first world". We don't actually make the stuff any more that got us to that position in the first place. How long before the rest of the world doesn't need us any more?
  
  --
  Ever stop to think ... and forget to start again?
5. Re:Dear USA by boundary · 2012-05-29 21:22 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  It is absolutely not our (the New Zealand people's) prerogative. This whole situation occurred because the NZ Police (none of whom are elected) thought they could get some international glory from a big case. They failed to do their research. They failed to follow proper procedure. They failed to use appropriate force. They failed on every account. And now they look like the try-hard asswipes that they are. If this was a one-off I'd be mildly surprised, but it has happened before, and it's making me feel quite nauseous. For example the NZ Defence Force has been caught on numerous times sucking up to the yanks just to improve their chances of being involved in military exercises, which was in strict contravention of the orders they received from the NZ Government at the time. They are out of control. So are the cops. Small men in large uniforms, thinking their dicks will grow bigger if they chum up to the big boys. Everyone, without exception, that I have talked to about this in NZ is absolutely disgusted with the way things have turned out. Blaming NZ is a total cop-out. The cops are at fault, for sure, but how about the US taking the requisite amount of blame for creating the conditions where their entertainment/copyright assholes are running riot across the globe, and the US government is materially supporting them?
6. Re:Dear USA by TheRaven64 · 2012-05-29 21:23 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  Bombs along Hadrian's wall and the a LOT of rowing...
  
  --
  I am TheRaven on Soylent News
7. Re:Dear USA by Richard_at_work · 2012-05-29 21:36 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Thats interesting, considering the heritage of the works at the core of this case - or are we limiting the topic to physical goods only?
8. Re:Dear USA by MrAngryForNoReason · 2012-05-29 21:39 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  That's one of the big issues I see with the "first world". We don't actually make the stuff any more that got us to that position in the first place. How long before the rest of the world doesn't need us any more?
  This argument pretty much disproves itself. Other countries need countries like the USA because of the point you are making. Manufacturing products for US companies is a big part of the economy in a lot of countries. As countries like China continue to develop their manufacturing industry they will continue to need Western countries to provide a market for their home grown products.
  This is how the world economy works. Different countries economies are based on different things and they trade.
9. Re:Dear USA by Coisiche · 2012-05-29 21:43 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  More seriously, the SNP did hold up the "arc of prosperity" of the Republic of Ireland, Iceland and Norway as the shining examples of how small Atlantic nations could be amazingly prosperous and how much better it would be if Scotland was independent and part of that...
  Fast forward a couple of years and Ireland is tanked by being one of the loser economies in the Euro (a currency which basically only works for Germany and while the French might think it works for them too, I think they have a surprise brewing) and Iceland banks got shredded by their exposure to toxic assets forcing the whole nation to the brink.
  Which basically just leaves Norway doing well out of the original "arc of prosperity". So the current SNP line is "things would be better if we were like Norway".
10. Re:Dear USA by cheesybagel · 2012-05-29 21:46 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  first-world / second-world originally meant US-aligned vs Soviet-aligned countries. The third-world meant unaligned countries.
11. Re:Dear USA by mrclisdue · 2012-05-29 21:57 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  Careful....
  http://yro.slashdot.org/story/12/05/29/2353223/twitter-bomb-joke-case-rolls-back-into-uk-courts
12. Re:Dear USA by Anonymous Coward · 2012-05-29 22:16 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  The US produces very little? It's incredibly obvious to tell you're trolling with statements like that.
  Actually from my point of view, I'd have to agree with the GP.
  I can't think of a single item I own that was actually made in USA. I own plenty of stuff made by US companies, but as far as I'm aware not on US soil.
  At one stage I thought my mountain bike was actually made in the US, but then I found a sticker that disproved that (can't remember where it said now)
  A brief survey of most stuff I own indicates that most of it came from China, followed by Taiwan and various other Asian countries.
  That's one of the big issues I see with the "first world". We don't actually make the stuff any more that got us to that position in the first place. How long before the rest of the world doesn't need us any more?
  Posts like this are one of the reasons I rarely visit slashdot anymore. The GP is a contentless one-liner marked +5 insightful. The parent says the USA doesn't make anything, when a quick wikipedia search reveals, "The United States is the world's largest manufacturer, with a 2009 industrial output of US$2.33 trillion. Its manufacturing output is greater than of Germany, France, India, and Brazil combined" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_States
  Then else where in the thread, we have crackpots making grand conspiracy theories about the United States, +5 insightful of course. *Sigh* I think this will be my last post on slashdot.
13. Re:Dear USA by JWSmythe · 2012-05-29 22:19 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  The US still exports gasoline, diesel, jet fuel, the majority from imported crude oil. We also export "computers and electronics", which the components are provided by overseas firms. For example, if Dell sells a metric fucktonne of computers from the US warehouses, it was an "export", even though it was assembled in a foreign country with foreign parts. Our other major exports are transportation equipment, chemicals, machinery, and agricultural products.
  That ignores the real problem though. The components use to make most of those are manufactured out of country. The US has gone from being an industrial source, to being an industrial middle-man. So, you will find stickers indicating almost everything you buy was manufactured in foreign countries. Quite a bit of the food you eat was grown in foreign countries. The car you drive, or at least the components, came from foreign countries.
  Being an industrial middle-man has benefits for the corporations based here, but for few others. They already know it's cheaper to manufacture overseas. They can have their call centers overseas. Since the US economy is down, they sell overseas. That leaves fewer and fewer jobs in the US, less consumer spending capability in the US, and is drawing us down into the collapse of the US economy.
  
  --
  Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
14. Re:Dear USA by Adrian+Harvey · 2012-05-29 22:25 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  Sorry, the DVD region code for NZ is 4. The UK and Europe is 2 (see wikipedia ). Fortunately enforcing the suppliers use of region locking on DVD players was ruled a breach of our competition legislation (which explicitly makes parallel importing legal) and our copyright act explicitly excludes region locking as a proctection measure See here So almost all DVD players are sold unlocked.
15. Re:Dear USA by AmiMoJo · 2012-05-29 22:56 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  The cops work for the government, which is your elected representation. It is up to you to control them. I'm afraid you must take responsibility.
  
  --
  const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
  SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
16. Re:Dear USA by YeeHaW_Jelte · 2012-05-29 23:11 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  Carefull, looking at them in the wrong way can land you sexual harassment charges in Sweden ...
  
  --
  
  ---
  "The chances of a demonic possession spreading are remote -- relax."
17. Re:Dear USA by sulimma · 2012-05-29 23:14 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Trade_Balance_1980_2011.svg
18. Re:Dear USA by Anonymous Coward · 2012-05-29 23:23 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  "Statistically"?!?
  USA was the world's largest manufacturer up to around 2009-2010, and has just been overtaken by China. Each of them produce around 20% of the total world's manufacturing output (40% combined).
  How is 1/5th of the total manufacturing output "statistically very little"? Or are you just making up shit about something you have no clue about in the first place?
19. Re:Dear USA by TaggartAleslayer · 2012-05-30 00:54 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  The Chinese currency is currently, artificially, kept very low. It has been for a very long while. NPR Report from 2006 on Yaun manipulation
  If the Yaun were more influenced by the market like the rest of the world, it would be balancing much quicker. The issue has very little to do with what US workers are willing to work for and more to do with what corporations are willing to pay. With the current unemployment rates in the US, you could stock a factory with minimum wage, skilled laborers, without an issue. But that still can't compete on a resource cost level with a stifled Yaun.
  Even so, as skilled production work moves to China, wages continue to increase due to labor shortages. NY Times article on the wage and labor issue. It is starting to even out, and we'll likely see more jobs returning to US shores as an equilibrium as reached.
20. Re:Dear USA by Uniquitous · 2012-05-30 04:45 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Because Americans wont work for chinese wages.
  Yet. But they're working on it.
docs need to prove conspiracy.. by gl4ss · 2012-05-29 19:37 · Score: 4, Interesting

docs need to prove conspiracy for extradition.
however, the defense would like it's hand on the evidence so they can show the police fucked up(afaik the computers are supposed to have security cam footage from the raid).
this is also a test if the fbi/etc can even hand over the evidence(I suppose they should have also had something prior to the bust to prove the conspiracy)...

--
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
1. Re:docs need to prove conspiracy.. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-05-29 20:02 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  INAL but from what I've been reading it's more complex then that, the conspiracy/ racketeering and money laundering charges only stick if they can show criminal copyright infringement. Problem is copyright infringement is civil issue in NZ AND they need to show probable success of conviction for crimes with at least a 5 year jail term in NZ before extradition can even go ahead.
  Conspiracy to commit a crime carries a maximum penalty of 5 years so qualifies, but they need to show both likely hood of conspiracy and the original crime.
  A laymans example would be: I think you and your friend conspired to cheat on a test. I may have emails showing you conspired but I can't just have you extradited by showing conspiracy, I have to convince a judge that cheating on a test is a criminal offence first. A much taller order.
  Also remember that the judge has already stated his displeasure with the failure to follow due process in the initial arrest and has required the crown to guarantee to cover costs and lost income if kim dotcom is not found guilty.
  -Kactus
2. Re:docs need to prove conspiracy.. by ciderbrew · 2012-05-29 21:20 · Score: 4
  
  I like reading about a decent Judge. It's like hope for the world.
Wait, NOW!?!? by MrDoh! · 2012-05-29 19:41 · Score: 4, Insightful

The NZ authorities didn't have this information before? They've destroyed a company, cost the 'innocent until proven guilty' person great harm, and NZ hasn't even seen the evidence yet to allow the raid? Good grief.

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Waiting for an amusing sig.
1. Re:Wait, NOW!?!? by Captain+Hook · 2012-05-29 20:03 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  The NZ authorities didn't have this information before?
  They aren't saying they haven't seen enough evidence to say Dotcom is guilty of a crime, they are saying that he has a right to defend himself against extradition and that defense needs to be able to review evidence for and against that charge.
  
  Having said that, I think NZ sleep walked into a political quagmire which they would be very happy to get out of with the least amount of embarrassment. It would be very useful for them to find a reason not to extradite Dotcom because then they could say they followed the International Treaties with the US that they had to but their own courts also protected someone from illegal extradition.
  
  --
  These comments are my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the other voices in my head.
2. Re:Wait, NOW!?!? by BlueStrat · 2012-05-29 20:14 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  The NZ authorities didn't have this information before? They've destroyed a company, cost the 'innocent until proven guilty' person great harm, and NZ hasn't even seen the evidence yet to allow the raid? Good grief.
  See, you weren't there for "the call".
  US DoJ: OK, this Dotcom guy has to be raided.
  NZ official: But you haven't even presented us any evidence against him whatsoever!
  US DoJ: Speaking of evidence, did you know that US SIGINT is the best on the planet? Did you know we have recordings/copies of all the emails, phone calls, and other electronic data, including photos and videos, sent and received by all the top NZ politicians and government officials? In fact I remember seeing something with your name on it concerning a string of calls to a "transvestite escort service", I think it was?
  NZ official: What time do you want us to hit the bastard?
  Strat
  
  --
  Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
3. Re:Wait, NOW!?!? by Zocalo · 2012-05-29 20:38 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  This would be information seized during the raid, so no, the NZ authorities obviously didn't get to see it before approving the raid. As far as I am aware, a fair trial in the US, and presumably NZ, requires that the defence team have access to all of the data gathered by the prosecution so there's a potential for this to backfire on the US big time. By all accounts Kim seems to be something of a scumbag, but so far, in this matter at least, he is still innocent until proven guilty; since there are growing grounds for a mistrial due to withholding evidence it's entirely possible that the NZ judge could react to further shenanigans by simply throwing the case out and denying extradition. That would leave Kim unable to travel to the US or certain other countries with favourable extradition treaties, but given some of the alternatives I doubt he'd be complaining too much.
  
  --
  UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
4. Re:Wait, NOW!?!? by gl4ss · 2012-05-29 21:44 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  well, if you count going purely on fbi agents word then they didn't act with zero evidence. if they had gone with something more substantial the raid wouldn't have needed to be in such a hurry and could have gone through the proper procedure - but as it is the warrant could probably have been fought against legally - had they been given the chance.
  obviously the nz authorities assumed that fbi wouldn't be bullshitting so badly but they were, full knowing that the actual suspected crime wasn't enough for extradition even.
  and the fbi agents thought they could get kim to settle "for less jailtime" regardless of the actual crime since that's the standard in usa - and now they're in trouble because they would need to come up with some real evidence to show that it's actually a criminal case that should be tried in usa.
  
  --
  world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
5. Re:Wait, NOW!?!? by X.25 · 2012-05-29 21:56 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  They aren't saying they haven't seen enough evidence to say Dotcom is guilty of a crime, they are saying that he has a right to defend himself against extradition and that defense needs to be able to review evidence for and against that charge.
  Various news outlets in NZ tried to talk to just about everyone (PM, Crown, etc) and find out whether FBI presented evidence (and what evidence was that) before raid was ordered, who exactly authorized the raid, negotiated with FBI, etc.
  Everyone refused to talk to media about these issue. As if they're not public servants paid by taxpayers' money, but working in a private company and can decline to comment.
  In short - noone (except police, I guess) knows what evidence NZ police has seen before the raid. They might have not seen any evidence, for all we know.
Victory for this battle is to MPAA by rgbe · 2012-05-29 19:57 · Score: 4, Insightful

Regardless if the US produce evidence or not. The Megaupload saga can be considered a success by the US authorities, MPAA, etc. Because they have destroyed Megaupload and all alternate providers like Megaupload are shaking in their pants. They have one this battle. But the war rages.
1. Re:Victory for this battle is to MPAA by xenobyte · 2012-05-29 20:18 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  Actually - as this thing is going it is more than likely that the US will loose and fail to get any extradition or other conviction.
  Remember, everything hinges on thumped-up charge of conspiracy to commit copyright infringement which is ludicrous because MegaUpload did not sell access to the illegal stuff, nor did they ask or otherwise entice the pirates to use their services. They were just one of many cloud storage and sharing service providers that both pirates and everybody else used. You paid for longer storage time, more storage space and more bandwidth to access/download. Access was free otherwise, which means that downloaders didn't pay for access but paid for ease of access.
  Oh, and when the US loses this case, I can't wait for the counter-suit for damages. I would laugh my pants off when the US government is ordered to cover the damages incurred during this farce of a trial. I hope Kim Dotcom takes them to the cleaners and take everything to the max. Get them to pay so obscene amounts that heads will have to roll and the collaboration with the copyright MAFIAA is dropped like a hot potato.
  
  --
  "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." -- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956) --
Re:Take note by QQBoss · 2012-05-29 20:10 · Score: 5, Funny

If this happened in Australia Kim would altready be in US custardy.
NZ purposly made legal mistakes and are now intentionally hindering the US!
It is distinctly possible that the USA would jail Kim for as long as they could, but it is highly unlikely they would ever attempt to turn him into a creme brulee.
I observed an unusual tone in the statement... by bogaboga · 2012-05-29 20:12 · Score: 4, Interesting

"A judge in New Zealand has ordered the U.S. government to hand over evidence seized in the Megaupload raid so Kim Dotcom and his co-defendants can use it to prepare a defense for an extradition hearing..."(bold/italics mine)
Usually, it is the US that orders other jurisdictions to hand over stuff...not the other way round! This leads me to one conclusion:
It will not work! This request is DoA! Moot...name it!
1. Re:I observed an unusual tone in the statement... by PARENA · 2012-05-29 20:34 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Well, if they don't hand it over, then I reckon the case for extradition will be thrown out and Dotcom is free to go. Not to the US, obviously... So it's in the their best interest to provide the requested evidence.
  
  --
  Here's the secret to immortality: ...oh dang, I forgot.
America, fuck yeah by Psychotria · 2012-05-29 20:13 · Score: 3, Funny

Actually I would like to correct that: America, fuck you.
Missing the point by cbope · 2012-05-29 21:02 · Score: 5, Interesting

I believe the most significant quote from the statement is this:
"United States is attempting to utilize concepts from the civil copyright context as a basis for the application of criminal copyright liability [which] necessitates a consideration of principles such as the dual use of technology and what they be described as significant non-infringing uses."
In other words, the NZ government realizes this is a misuse of the justice system to allow the US government to prosecute a civil case as a criminal one without giving the defendant access to evidence. The significant problem here is that the rights of the right-holder is being held to a higher standard than the rights of the defendant in this case.
I'm not attempting to say Mr. Dotcom is completely innocent in this case, but the US legal system has destroyed his business, confiscated his assets and likely taken away his future without due process and without a conviction of any crime at this point. Innocent until proven guilty, anyone?
1. Re:Missing the point by Corbets · 2012-05-29 23:34 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  I'm not attempting to say Mr. Dotcom is completely innocent in this case, but [...]
  Why aren't you? Isn't he innocent until proven guilty? Right now, he's 100% innocent.
  Innocent until proven guilty is correctly used with the verb "presumed", not "is". Whether he is innocent or guilty will not change in the coming months - either a crime has already been committed or it hasn't. However, he is presumed innocent until proven otherwise.
Re:They Forgot by 91degrees · 2012-05-29 23:20 · Score: 3, Interesting

I think they were expecting to find a smoking gun. Some evidence that makes it incontrovertible that Megaupload set up the service to facilitate copyright infringement. They presumably felt that it was an open and shut case, and all they needed to do was raid the servers, and collect the evidence.

Unfortunately they probably haven't. Megaupload appears to have been operating within the law. I suspect a fairly substantial chunk of what's stored there is legitimate, or at least not provably copyright infringing. They're also up against someone who's a lot more legally savvy than the kids who ran TPB, and were possibly a bit overconfident.
Re:Kimble - the douchebag's douchebag. by Mashiki · 2012-05-30 02:18 · Score: 3, Insightful

I remember him from the quake days too and remember him as being an asshat as well, but to be honest? I couldn't care. You know why? Because the case in itself is a giant miscarriage of justice, and if you can't see that though over 10 years of self-inflicted hate, you've got a deeper psychological problem.

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