Windows 8 Release Preview Now Available To Download

MrSeb writes "Microsoft has announced the immediate availability of Windows 8 Release Preview. Unfortunately there isn't a Consumer Preview > Release Preview upgrade path — you'll have to format and perform a clean installation. After downloading the ISO, simply burn Windows 8 RP onto a USB stick or DVD, reboot, and follow the (exceedingly quick and easy) installer. Alternatively, if you don't want to format a partition, ExtremeTech has a guide on virtualizing Windows 8 with VirtualBox. After a lot of fluster on the Building Windows 8 blog, the Release Preview is actually surprisingly similar to the Consumer Preview. Despite being promised a new, flat, Desktop/Explorer UI, Aero is still the default theme in Windows 8 RP. The tutorial that will introduce new users to the brave new Start buttonless Windows 8 world is also missing. Major features that did make the cut are improved multi-monitor support — it's now easier to hit the hot corners on a multi-monitor setup, and Metro apps can be moved between displays — and the Metro version of IE10 now has a built-in Flash plug-in. There will be no further pre-releases of Windows 8: the next build will be the RTM."

Comments

What?

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't go CP to RP? Don't be so silly Microsoft, I know you want the installer to be tested but I'm not going to install the RP now,

Re:What?

[jakimfett]

Aha! Procrastination for the win! (I hadn't gotten around to testing out the CP I downloaded a while back).

Re:What?

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

I installed Win 8, and have the World's BIGGEST Kin - without touch!

KINNING!

Re:What?

[Tough Love]

I would have loved to be a fly on the wall in the exec meeting where they came up with the idea of turning Microsoft's monopoly desktop product into a cell phone.

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

(I hadn't gotten around to testing out the CP I downloaded a while back).

Burn in hell, paedophile!

Re:What?

[Penguinisto]

You know what would be funny?

Let's assume (okay, state) that Windows 8 is a direct, reactionary response to the iPad and the whole "Post PC" thing.

What if Apple did it as a fake-out? What if, say, they pushed on tablets, but knew it would only go so far, yet pronounced that it would be the end-all, be-all? Microsoft spends all this time and treasure in a panicked reaction, turning their monster ship around to sail towards the mobile UI, overreacts (well, they already did IMHO), and commits irreversibly to the Metro UI thing. Once Windows 8 has been out for awhile, Tim Cook mounts the stage at the next Apple event, and proclaims that from here on in OSX would be sold retail for use on select Dell/HP/Lenovo OEM models, at reasonable prices. Furthermore, let's say that Apple would (from its rather massive war chest) pay OEMs more than Microsoft pays (at a ratio of 2:1 or perhaps 3:1) in "co-marketing" money in order to promote OSX over Windows.

Any takers on how big of a brick Steve Ballmer would shit out at the news? As an alternate bet, how much time do you think it would take him to call those OEMs with dire threats?

(I know - impossible, etc etc... but now with Jobs gone, maybe not so impossible? It would certainly liven up the OS wars a bit, and would be fun to watch. As a bonus, I could stop having to bother with the PITA efforts I usually expend in hackintoshing each new machine I get...)

Re:What?

[jjohnson]

That's... that's just... My God.

I'll be in my bunk.

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

I downloaded it, installed it into a VM and deleted said VM a few hours later.

I got everything I needed from those few hours... I know that I won't be touching Win8 with a barge pole.

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because MS blindly follows what Apple says, right?

Re:What?

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

Yeah, they sure did go out n their own with Zune. And with the WinPhone7. And with Windows, itself. Boy! That Window imaging model introduced with Vista, what a brilliant departure from Quartz!

I think the use of touch and gestures that was an original in MS labs really schooled Apple on how to make a human interface work - after years of "struggling in the dark" over at Infinite Loop.

Microsoft's pioneering work on App stores is also not to be overlooked.

Re:What?

[hairyfeet]

I ran the CP in my shop for nearly a month and that is what my customers said as well. in fact I've NEVER seen such a negative reaction, not even with Vista. with Vista they were curious about it but after 5 minutes with Win 8 the ONLY question I got asked is "But YOU will still be able to get me Win 7 if I need it, right?"

I have a feeling this is gonna make WinME look like XP, hell I wouldn't be surprised if this is the release that FINALLY gets the board to punt the sweaty monkey, its just a giant fail. Why oh why didn't they just improve Win 7 for the desktop and keep Metro for mobile devices? because it seriously sucks ass on the desktop and laptop. Even Gabe from valve said "Not just the worst Windows MSFT has ever come up with but the worst software PERIOD". When a guy that is making a fortune off your OS not only slams it but is seriously looking at going to all the trouble and expense of making a "Steambox" Linux to avoid it? you KNOW you're in trouble!

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

I could see that happening in the consumer PC space - A wierd place where nobody likes to be because the profits are razor thin.. Yet nobody can do without, as it serves as an anchor to other products. Still, it would be a massive blow to Microsoft because they're really going nowhere in the desktop space. Apple could easily step in and kick them aside.

Don't see it happening in the enterprise. Apple has no server suite and no enterprise desktop features that can touch Microsoft's offerings.

But yeah the chairs, would be flying in Redmond. If I were Cook I'd already have a fleet of lawyers penning antitrust complaints before peeping a word to the press.

Re:What?

[cavreader]

Then you must be a genius if you can evaluate an entire OS in just a couple of hours. I suspect you saw the MS logo and decided it sucked.

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

Then you must be a genius if you can evaluate an entire OS in just a couple of hours. I suspect you saw the MS logo and decided it sucked.

It's not the entire OS that has to be evaluated, just the user experience with the essentials/most used. For that a couple of hours suffices if you have sufficient experience for the basics, e.g. being expert-level on its predecessor. This also invalidates your second excuse, most people are hardcore Microsoft users (I started with MS-DOS on a Zenith Z-200 PC/AT-compatible, I think it was a 3.xx version; I didn't own it but that thing was huge, heavy and very expensive).

You cannot force people who are used to using an artist's fine paintbrush (WIMP) to use finger-painting techniques (Metro) on their trusted, well-known desktops. Plus it just looks very unpolished.

YES I will download the RP and yes I will evaluate it inside a virtual machine, but if it's like CP, no way it will be actually installed on any of my machines.

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

Pretty much, yeah.

Re:What?

[Columcille]

Have you used Win8? Does your opinion differ? I tested the consumer preview and was astonished that Microsoft would consider this a serious OS for most people. They have made a terrible mistake, as most reviewers note.

I'm not someone to bash Microsoft whenever they come up. They've had good software and bad software, made good moves and bad moves, and Windows 8 strikes me as solidly in the bad move, bad idea column. I keep thinking they must have something else up their sleeve.

Re:What?

[game kid]

No, not impossible--quite sensible really, and working quite well so far if that's their current plan.

They've apparently exploited MS's "Embrace, Extend..." to make them embrace a human-sized* steaming pile of shit. MS has strong ideas of how software should work but if a new thing looks like The FUTURE(tm) and profitable they'll tackle it all NFL-like to their peril.

*because regular steaming piles are too short for the whole wrap-arms-around thing that an embrace would entail

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

but now with Jobs gone, maybe not so impossible?

Jobs actually initially wanted to license Mac OS, even stating as much in question and answer session (developer conference?). He backtracked to save the company.

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's... that's just... My God.

I'll be in my bunk.

It makes me sad that you referenced the wonderfully awesome show Firefly about microsoft's bing search engine. Please take it back or your going to make Angel Joss cry.

Re:What?

[jo42]

I keep thinking they must have something else up their sleeve.

Why, Windows 9 of course! Promise that the next version will fix all the problems of the old version. It's called Marketing By Dumbtards (AKA MBAs).

Re:What?

[humanrev]

One could always argue that Windows 8 is a real-world testbed for Microsoft to experiment with and gauge opinion as to what works and what doesn't, so that Windows 9 refined the good and ditches the bad. Kinda like they did with Vista and then Windows 7.

Of course, to do this people have to be suckered into using Windows 8 and Microsoft runs the risk of pissing off a great many people. Plus those who paid money for Windows 8 won't like being thought of as guinea-pigs.

Re:What?

[Burpmaster]

Well, that trick does seem to work on them...

Re:What?

[ozmanjusri]

I keep thinking they must have something else up their sleeve.

You may be right - they do have a history of using Queen's ducks to distract reviewers.

There was the mandatory Vista startup sound http://slashdot.org/story/06/08/31/2347201/vista-startup-sound-to-be-mandatory, 3 app limit for W7 starter http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/04/21/1356245/windows-7-starter-edition-3-apps-only, etc etc.

It's vaguely possible Microsoft is floating the horrible W8 desktop interface in front of reviewers to generate the buzz, but then release an (expensive) "Enterprise" version that works exactly like a cosmetically enhanced W7. They'll release it with a fanfare saying "we listened to our adoring fans, and this is the result.".

MSM "journalists" will lap it up, comparing it favorably to the Metro'd atrocity doing the rounds now, and conveniently forgetting they'd just been presented with a lukewarm rehash of the OS they'd already paid for many years earlier.

Of course, the alternative view is that sales of Android rocketed past Windows licenses last year, and are looking set to double W7's sales figures well before the end of this year. That's got to be terrifying to a company structured so heavily around lock-in. Maybe W8 is the result of raw panic after all...

Re:What?

[Entropius]

A couple of hours isn't enough time to decide that something is conclusively good, but it is enough time to be convinced that something is crap.

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

That might be the reaction, but I doubt if that was ever Apple's intent. At some point, Apple had to laugh to itself at people's willingness to go ape shit over their products. The line of screaming fans at the stores may have been a shock. Seeing Steve Ballmer in that line screeching like a girl just defies belief. Yet for all intents, that has happened.

Re:What?

[RocketRabbit]

We got one here boys!

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

Then you must be a genius if you can evaluate an entire OS in just a couple of hours.

Not according to your employer.

Microsoft says 82 per cent found their way around the whole system within an hour.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/microsoft/9302910/Microsoft-Windows-8-Release-Preview-review.html

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

False, take sex for example....

Re:What?

[allo]

which is a good indicator.

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

Since this approach seems to have worked incredibly well for Vista/Win7, why wouldn't they use the same approach with Win8/Win9?

If the Vista/Win7 approach had pissed off a great many people and if those who paid money for Vista didn't like being thought of as guinea-pigs, MS would probably be taking a different approach with Win8/Win9. But that's not the way it went down, is it?

Re:What?

[cbiltcliffe]

Are you saying that sex is crap, but it took you more than two hours to figure that out? Or that sex is good, but you thought it was crap after the first two hours?

Re:What?

[mcgrew]

Of course, to do this people have to be suckered into using Windows 8 and Microsoft runs the risk of pissing off a great many people. Plus those who paid money for Windows 8 won't like being thought of as guinea-pigs.

Huh? MS customers should be used to that by now. Actually, customers of most software companies, but MS is particularly bad about it. Most n.0 software shouldn't have left the building.

MS has the advantage of having their OS preloaded on almost every computer manufactured. Unless you buy a boxed copy to slap on your whitebox or upgrade the OS on your present computer, the experience has to be pretty damned bad to run most people off.

Plus, most non-nerds don't know they have a free, superior, and avalaible alternative to Windows.

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, phrasing!

Re:What?

[RaceProUK]

Isn't MBA = Marketing By Asshats?

Re:What?

[godefroi]

I have an honest question. You suggest that Win9 will "refine the good and ditch the bad" parts of Win8, and suggest that this is what happened with Vista and Win7. While it is clear to me that Win7 "refined the good" in many areas of Vista, what exactly was "ditched"? It seems to me that when people make this claim, they are actually just getting used to the things that Vista changed from XP, or have upgraded their software to versions that stop doing the bad things that software got used to doing back when best practices were more suggestions than requirements.

Re:What?

[godefroi]

conveniently forgetting they'd just been presented with a lukewarm rehash of the OS they'd already paid for many years earlier.

There are two kinds of OS upgrades: lukewarm rehashes, and upgrades that make people angry, because stuff changed.

Re:What?

[godefroi]

And with the WinPhone7.

Yeah, it's not like MS was selling a smartphone OS for nearly a decade before the iPhone existed.

Re:What?

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

Decade? How about 4 years. CE was around, but not for phones. When they stuck these together, as Windows Mobile, the integration of the radio stack and network controls were at LANman / Win 3.1 levels of sophistication. Really. The phones were life safety hazards, where stalled applications could keep you from answering or starting calls.

Trust me. I had every one one of these turds, 2003-2010. Starting with the TMobile HTC Wallaby and Himalaya XDA, which opened the market - a couple of the unusable HPs and then the Palm 700w and back to the HTC Vogue. Finished off the pile of misery with the Samsung Omnia.

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

but then release an (expensive) "Enterprise" version that works exactly like a cosmetically enhanced W7

I was pretty sure they'd make the Metro start page/lack of start menu optional by now (and maybe turned off by default or not installed at all on enterprise versions)

But, as there were no such change in this last pre-release build, I'm more and more inclined to think they'll use their desktop monopoly to push this new "paradigm" down everyone's throat...

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

Once again. You don't have to use Metro. Christ people. This isn't complicated.

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

As most reviewers note? I just read half a dozen positive reviews. What reviews are you referring to that aren't dated back to the very first release of Windows 8 last year?

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

The main thing that was scrapped was hiding the UAC messages. In the original Vista, UAC messages would constantly be in your face. Rename, move or copy a file or installing a new program you would get a nasty message saying something was changing your files. Yes, you could disable UAC in Vista, but that would lower security. Not sure how UAC works in Vista post Service Pack 1.

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you mean Wozniak, I don't think Steve Ballmer, from MS, would be purchasing an ianything.

Re:What?

[Just Some Guy]

Yeah, it's not like MS was selling a smartphone OS for nearly a decade before the iPhone existed.

Correct. Today's market looks almost exactly as if MS was not selling smartphones before iPhone came along.

Re:What?

[godefroi]

I ran Vista from the time it was released until the time Win7 was released, and I don't remember the UAC experience changing much between the two (I've never disabled UAC on either). If you're messing with files in areas you shouldn't be (Program Files, Windows, etc), you get UAC prompts on either version.

Re:What?

[hairyfeet]

I hate the uninformed...YES YOU DO sparky, yes you do. With Metro the classic desktop is TREATED AS AN APP which means that even if you NEVER use Metro its still being drug along like a dead elephant on the back of your PC sucking resources.

Don't believe me, fire up process explorer and TRY to kill Metro, you can't do it. They've tied it in so tight with the display it simply can't be killed. it can be hidden, but just like minimizing a program that doesn't actually stop anything, just hides it.

Re:What?

[TangoMargarine]

OH MY GOD, my ELEVEN GAJILLION gig RAM machine has to spend another HALF GIG of RAM on an idle interface process!!111!!1!

Re:What?

[godefroi]

The earliest one I found was the CyberBank PC-EPhone released in March 2001. That's better than 6 years. I bet there's one at least a year earlier, but at that point it becomes true archeology.

Just because Apple did it better doesn't mean that noone did it before them.

Re:What?

[godefroi]

MS wasn't selling smartphones. They still aren't.

Re:What?

[hairyfeet]

Hate to break the news to ya sparky but most machines are laptops now and having crap sucking resources KILLS THE BATTERY which most people WILL care about. Sure on my desktop, where I have 6 cores and 8Gb of RAM? Who gives a crap. But on my dual core laptop running on the 6 cell? You're damned right I care, I care a hell of a lot!

This is the same bullshit attitude by MSFT that caused Vista to be a failwhale, they thought they could just throw more cycles at it and completely missed the fact that netbooks and laptops were all going thin and light. Nobody is gonna want Win 8 if it kills a good hour+ on the battery compared to Win 7.

Re:What?

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

That's a vendor doing their own integration on PoketPC.

Microsoft didn't offer RIL for radio stack integration until 2002:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Mobile

All of this is pedantic. MS phones came with A STYLUS, until 2006! They made shit phone software for 4 years, with no market success and had to be SCHOOLED by Apple.

The Zune 2nd Gen would have been a beautiful "catch-up" point for MS. They could have used their finally elegant iPod knock-off to build the iPhone knock-off. But they screwed that pooch in the kennel. The Zune IP was ditched and users abandoned, in the mindless pursuit to keep "Windows" relevant, and build anew for the tablet "strategy" they'd also gotten TOTALLY WRONG since 2004.

After spending over 12 Billion on R&D labs between 1999-2010, you think they'd come up with something other than wannabe OS's, devices and me-too cloud services.

Re:What?

[jakoye]

I interpret that as meaning you liked it. A lot.

Re:What?

[cavreader]

Yes, I have worked on evaluating and using the early previews of the Win8 system because of being able to get early releases under the Gold level partner program for developers. I concentrate more on the development side instead of spending a lot of time on the user experience. I need to determine if it is worth adopting in a corporate environment. It can also be configured to make the user experience similar to the existing OS. The first release of any OS can be hard but subsequent changes can be made by user feedback.

Re:What?

[cavreader]

I don't work for MS. I am totally OS agnostic. And the MS 82% is no more than marking fluff. And if you think someone can evaluate a new OS in an hour does nothing but revel your stupidity.

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree completely. I've used every version of windows, even making the horrible mistake of getting WinMe. I actually liked Vista, which is really only slightly less good than Win7. But Win8 has been an exercise in frustration. I haven't found anything new that many reviewers have said many times over. Basically, it has a lot of weird little tricks that are not discoverable. Heck, I couldn't even find a clear way to find out what was open and what wasn't (I guess like phone apps, microsoft thinks it doesn't really matter any more). The abrupt switches between metro and aero are jarring.

This is a flaming turd. This is not a Vista turd, this is a WindowsMe/Microsoft Bob sized turd.

Re:What?

[godefroi]

Woah, hey, if you were going to define "smartphone" as "capacitive touchscreen device" then you should've said that at the beginning. Once again, just because someone came along and did it BETTER, doesn't erase what they did.

Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, mystery.

[trifish]

Despite being promised a new, flat, Desktop/Explorer UI, Aero is still the default theme in Windows 8 RP

All right, only they didn't promise the new UI for pre-release versions. They explicitly said it will be in RTM.

Linux on the desktop, now?

[charnov]

So there's finally a good reason to move to Linux on the desktop. Thanks, Microsoft for taking a masterpiece of design like Windows 7 and making it a pain in the butt to use.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[BenJeremy]

Windows 7 is still good, and it's the next "XP" - the version Enterprise customers will be keeping until Microsoft finally shuts the doors on it, so we have a good 10 years or so left - and Microsoft has time to pull its collective head out of its collective ass and being back a GUI that makes sense in a desktop world.

If the Linux world can deliver an operating system that won't give my mother fits to use, maybe it can make inroads while Microsoft tries to shove WinMetro down people's throats, but I gave up holding my breath for that years ago.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[Skarecrow77]

Why would you stop using windows 7?

the only reason I switched to vista at all was the whole "we won't put directx 10 on xp" bullshit that microsoft did, and even then i dual booted into linux for a year and a half for everything non-game related until windows 7 came out.

until microsoft pulls a stunt like that again, long live windows 7.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[cpu6502]

>>>masterpiece of design like Windows 7 and making it a pain in the butt to use.

I'm planning to buy a second Win7 machine, so if the first goes bad I am not forced into upgrading to Windows Vista..... er, I mean 8. (And no I can't use GNUlinux or Mac, as I need Windows for working at home.)

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[busyqth]

I'm going to buy 10 retail copies of Windows 7 so that I'll have plenty for any future needs.
That'll show Microsoft they can't jerk me around.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[crutchy]

yeah you tell em...

"microsoft, you're a bunch of assholes... now let me pay you a heap of money to prove to myself that you're a bunch of assholes!"

later, after purchasing several copies of win7...

"hehehe... suckers"

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[peragrin]

you joke but with windows 7 hardware installation requirements you might need 10 copies to last you 10 years.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[Jeng]

I set up a computer for my six year old nephew to use when he comes by and installed Linux Mint with the LXDE desktop for him, so far he isn't having any issues.

It's just like the classic Windows 95/98/2000 desktop.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[zennyboy]

"WinMetro" kind of reminds me of Active Desktop... Cool idea, not so good in usage...

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[Anonymous Coward]

Mainstream support for Windows 7 ends in less than three years, on January 12, 2015. That is, unless Microsoft extends it like they did for Windows XP when Vista wasn't well-received.

All of us who keep denying that the desktop is dying are ignoring that most people already only use their computer to access "the cloud", even if it isn't called that. Web mail, web galleries, media streaming, even the occasional image editing and office work is now done in a browser. The masses are longing for the walled gardens where they can buy a new computer when the old one breaks or catches a cold and everything is still there, just as it is when they're visiting friends and want to show them a picture or a document. What's more natural than to use a mobile device instead of a desktop in that kind of environment? And then you have a touch screen: If you think that the desktop metaphor is an appropriate user interface for a touchscreen, you must have loved Windows CE.

Metro isn't a GUI for the desktop. It's a GUI for a tablet or a phone. The desktop isn't going away, but there's a growing divide between professional content creators and home users. The latter don't want to worry about their computer's health anymore. They don't want to lose their data to a hard disk crash, a virus or a service technician who wipes the disk by reimaging the OS.

This isn't an age-problem either. People in their twenties "get" computers less than the people who grew up in the 80s. They didn't witness the transformation from the 8-bit computers to the multi-gigabyte OS installations of today, so their approach is like that of an archaeologist who discovers a complex machine and tries to understand it without destroying it. These people are fed up with the complexity of keeping a system in good shape. They want to just pay someone else to keep it all tidy for them. They want the cloud. That's why the desktop is dying. That's why Windows 8 has Metro.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[geekoid]

You're welcome to move, but i'm not sure how you consider this to be a pain in the but. I find it much easier and more intuitive.

OTOH, you own't really change. you'll use what you are using as long as you can, then switch to whatever version of windows is and make up excuses on why it's ok for you to use.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[geekoid]

Hi. I work for a very large customer of MS. we also don't like upgrading. We ahve been given pretty definitive dats on when to stop using XP.
Hint: not 10 years.

If enterprise customer wants to run an old unsupported OS with known vulnerabilities, they sure can. But they aren't getting support, and there are fewer and fewer IT people willing to twiddle there career away duct taping XP and going without the latest tools.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[BlackSnake112]

The last time I got the call to fix my parents computer I backed up all their data and installed ubuntu I think it was version 9 or 10. Installed Open office and copied back their data. Set up their email, tested a few things that I didn't test before I went there. They thought they were on windows for about 4 months. They did not like having to use a password at first. But for what they do, ubuntu worked fine. The hardest part was finding an application that let them do what print shop did.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[geekoid]

Once it occurred to me its basically an on screen start menu, it became really easy for me to use.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[RuaisLampSilog]

If your mother has no computer experience, she will easily use linux. That's my experience. asking some other thing to look and behave as windows will not happen.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[jbolden]

Huh? Active Desktop was awesome. Active X allowed for really power distributed applications that were web based. I'd love to have channels for my phone today. PointCast which is still the best screen saver I ever had kinda like news360.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[Anonymous Coward]

If the Linux world can deliver an operating system that won't give my mother fits to use, maybe it can make inroads while Microsoft tries to shove WinMetro down people's throats, but I gave up holding my breath for that years ago.

Indeed. The last thing Linux needs is an influx of typical Windows users. Much better they go to Mac and keep the Linux world geek-friendly.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[BlackSnake112]

Switching out failed hardware requires windows to activate again. I could sort of understand changing the motherboard, but changing the RAM? That is stupid. Well more stupid then having to activate after typing in the code in the first place. Having to call microsoft to get a new code is a pain. Of course having to explain to them a motherboard upgrade due to a motherboard failure is a pain, but doable. Telling them the old one blew its capacitors did help a bit. I actually had someone who knew something about hardware.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[s.petry]

All of us who keep denying that the desktop is dying are ignoring that most people already only use their computer to access "the cloud", even if it is

Lies, all lies. There are some things in the "cloud" or "clouded" but the majority of businesses still use Desktops as Desktops, running.. you know, desktop applications. The large company I'm currently at runs Outlook, Lync, MS Office, and has been locked stupidly in to lots of .net garbage (time software, project planning/tracking, etc..). Before this, it was a large company that ran Windows + Lotus Notes + lots of .net garbage (time software, inventory front ends, project tracking) that they stupidly locked themselves in to. Thankfully, terminal server means I can run Linux and still access my required applications.

People claiming that everything is in the cloud tend to be clueless sales people trying to keep the hype up.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[k3vlar]

Metro isn't a GUI for the desktop. It's a GUI for a tablet or a phone.

I couldn't have said it better myself. The real problem is... why does Microsoft insist on forcing it onto desktop users?

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[BancBoy]

Telling them the old one blew its capacitors did help a bit.

Otherwise they would've just chuckled at you and commented that it was an incredibly well endowed motherboard?

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[Anonymous Coward]

They're not forcing it onto desktop users. The desktop metaphor is still available. But they need people to feel at home with Metro so that Microsoft can get a foot in the door to the mobile market, where iOS and Android reign.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[catmistake]

I have yet to see what's "good" about Windows. XP became a corporate standard and a necessary evil. Yet even the new features in Vista, 7, and now 8, offered nothing to warrent corporate shops rushing to upgrade, and all the MS FanBoi's rushing to upgrade at home "oh, I've been running it at home for such and such... I'm fully versed." Pretty colors and more warnings... I don't see the purpose of the upgrades other than its the same as the purpose of Adobe software upgrades, namely, to keep the company in business because they had saturated the market and the software sales were slowing. To a large extent, I feel the same is true of Apple's OS X... after it had reached a certain level of stability and features, upgrades to new versions didn't really offer much to users regardless of the hundreds of new features listed. I see the same problem with other MS Software. What the Hell was the POINT of any version of Office and Server past 2003, other than to match the look and feel of the parity flagship OS? Ubuntu seems to be suffering from the same feature creep... its as though devepment has no sense of restraint... if they can add some feature, they apparently must.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[Anonymous Coward]

So there's finally a good reason to move to Linux on the desktop. Thanks, Microsoft for taking a masterpiece of design like Windows 7 and making it a pain in the butt to use.

LOL! Yeah the only thing standing in the way of the 'Year of the Linux Desktop' was the Start Menu haha!

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[exomondo]

Metro isn't a GUI for the desktop. It's a GUI for a tablet or a phone.

I couldn't have said it better myself. The real problem is... why does Microsoft insist on forcing it onto desktop users?

Couldn't you just put a 'Show Desktop' shortcut in the Startup folder? Then the only reason to use the start screen is to launch programs that you don't have pinned to your taskbar, so it's basically just clicking an icon there rather than clicking through the start menu, no more difficult anyway.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[Anonymous Coward]

He is saying win7 is LIKE XP, meaning companies will not want to upgrade from win7 until the end of its life cycle.
Everyone knows when XP EoL is.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[jxander]

The majority of businesses do, but they really don't need to.

Sure, you'll always have engineers who need top-end rigs to run their CATIA and what-not, and there will always be jet-setting VPs who need their laptops ... but the vast majority of business-class users could easily perform all of their tasks on a dumb terminal connected to a VM server somewhere. We have users in my office with towers sporting core i5 and i7 processors, 4+ gigs of ram (on XP *le'facepalm*) and dual 24"-inch monitors, who do nothing but access Citrix terminals all day. There is practically zero activity on their $1,000+ tower that couldn't be handled by a $30 Raspberry Pi. Other users have laptops that haven't left their docking stations, ever.... but I digress.

Back to the point, most of what drive business's IT needs is habit. People have always had a desktop, and so they insist on continuing to have them. They've grown accustomed to XP, so they insist on continuing to have XP. Also, the lock-in you've mentioned is a big issue: corporate offices are nearly universally on MS Office formats, which will not transition smoothly to an open/libre office suite. Add it all up, and the process of change become a VEERY slow one, if it occurs at all. We've only recently begun to sneak Win7 into the environment here, with every possible modification made to keep the desktop environment looking exactly like it did in XP. If Win7 ever becomes a corporate mainstay, it will be at least a decade before the next OS darkens these doors.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[WaffleMonster]

All of us who keep denying that the desktop is dying are ignoring that most people already only use their computer to access "the cloud", even if it isn't called that. Web mail, web galleries, media streaming, even the occasional image editing and office work is now done in a browser.

I vaugly remember using a computer when the killer app was not access to a computer network because such access simply did not exist or was too expensive. At that time not many people on earth owned a computer or would even choose to if given the opportunity. However for most of my life it was either an IP stack or terminal emulator connected to an insanly slow modem.

Yes the killer app was, is and always shall be access to the network stupid. This has not changed as you seem to be asserting it has. Lots of people have and will continue to have computers ONLY to check their spam laden email. Without access to a network they simply would not own a computer.

These ideas are orthogonal to form factor and UI concepts. You can't say because people like using the network or "cloud" or whatever ambiguous nonsense word makes you happy that it automatically means a specific form factor or UI concept has died. This makes no more sense than saying it will rain tomorrow because the sky is blue.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[cavreader]

Yea I have heard over the past 5+ years how the Linux desktop was going to dominate the desktop world. Any day now.Businesses have invested a ton of money creating windows apps so as soon as they can re-write all of them the change over is a slam dunk.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[Grishnakh]

Oh please, what a stupid comment. I can understand where you're coming from, but it's still pretty stupid. Linux needs more users; that's how you get more mindshare, and more willingness by hardware mfgrs to provide specs or even drivers so we Linux users can use their hardware without a lot of trouble. With most things except for (Nvidia and ATI) video, Linux is pretty much "plug and play": you just install a mainstream distro and everything just works, without having to go hunt down drivers like you do for Windows. There's still problems, however, namely video drivers as mentioned before, and a few other things (all-in-one print/scan/copy devices, etc.). To rectify this situation, we need more mindshare and more users. More low-end, "grandma" type users is helpful here.

The key to keeping both grandma and the geeks happy is to have different distros aimed at each, or different distro versions at least.

However, the main problem the Linux world is having right now is all the UI changes in the forms of Unity and Gnome3, which are supposedly to be easier for the grandmas, but in reality aren't easier for anyone, not for power users, and certainly not for anyone who's familiar with Windows. Add in the fact that most distros use one of these UIs and the situation isn't looking good. With more users moving to KDE and distros that use it, however, this hopefully will get better.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[LinuxIsGarbage]

I'm DAZzled that your activating your system that way. Surely you can LOAD softwarE that would pResent the system as completely genuine.

I like the $40 student upgrade versions I bought.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[Anonymous Coward]

Mainstream support for Windows 7 ends in less than three years, on January 12, 2015. That is, unless Microsoft extends it like they did for Windows XP when Vista wasn't well-received.

Mainstream support for Windows ends 5 years after the product launch or 2 years after the next version is released, whichever is the longest. Vista was released in 2007 and mainstream support for XP ended in 2009. This was exactly to their schedule.

Despite what everyone says around here, XP support was not extended due to Vista, and neither was Windows 7 rushed out early either.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[Anonymous Coward]

The retail version of Windows is not locked to the hardware. You can buy a whole new computer and install it again.

Even the OEM version doesn't magically stop working just because you upgrade the parts in your computer. It's true that you may need to activate it again, and in rare cases you may even have to call Microsoft if you have reactivated a lot of times. But has anyone here ever been refused an activation when doing it on the phone? I would doubt it.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[hairyfeet]

Nope, sorry, Linux still has major issues with driver, upgrades breaking shit, and with the DE wars and pulseaudio being flaky. Instead it'll be Vista all over again where even SJVN said Vista's failure hurt Linux as people just bought XP instead. In case you didn't hear MSFT quietly boosted the EOL for ALL version of Win 7 from 2014 for the non business versions to 2020 so anybody who doesn't want Win 8 will be able to buy Win 7 no problem and it'll last longer than most keep their systems for. I know my customers have been buying up quads with plenty of upgrade-ability so they can just bypass Win 8 completely.

So sorry, it won't be enough for MSFT to put out a bad product, not with their long support cycles. Linux would have to make a major breakthrough but instead according to one of the big cheese at Red hat Linux desktop is instead in its death cries due to design mistakes made 20 years ago. and hey, guess what? He also said it needs a fricking driver ABI! Nice to see even the guys at RH know a bad design when they see one.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[hairyfish]

Windows 7 is still good, and it's the next "XP" - the version Enterprise customers will be keeping until Microsoft finally shuts the doors on it

Isn't that XP? I've worked in a few different places since Win 7 came out and none of them upgraded or planned to upgrade. WinXP still actually works really well. It's simple and it works. Apart from the EOL support, there is still no real reason to spend money on upgrading from XP in an enterprise environment.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[Billly Gates]

But Geekoid, didn't you get the Memo? IT is a cost center. Who cares when you can spend $500,000 for more sales people who are profit centers that can make that $1,500,000!

In all seriousness with a new recession on the horizon with manufactoring slowing in Europe, China, and now the US the big bosses will want to keep what they have and the accountants will be screaming to cut costs. Upgrading is simply not an option and it is universal that in fortune 500 that IT sucks and is a drain unless you are an I.T. company.

XP is a pain in the ass today but I do not see this problem going away. If Greece falls you can bet IT is the last thing the CEO wants to invest in even if it is 10 years old.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[Billly Gates]

God I hope not.

As someone trying to start a website business on the side IE 6 and 7 wont go away until XP dies! I do not want to support HTML 4 in 2019 because IE 8 still has %20 marketshare thanks to cheapskates and luddities refusing to upgrade.

Win 8 must suck but XP for 14 years is ridiculous. No one should have platforms that old.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[Billly Gates]

That is silly. Do users really freak out that much because Documents looks so freighteningly different with the libraries or that the ugly fisher price blue and green is gone!

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's getting increasingly hard to find new computers that will run XP - there have been a signficant number of hardware changes since XP shipped that simply aren't available inbox XP machines (HDAudio, SATA, etc).

Yes there are XP drivers available for all of these but the costs of maintaining the system images for XP machines increases linearly as new machines come on the market.

Eventually you'll get to the point where XP simply won't work on new hardware.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[PCM2]

Having to call microsoft to get a new code is a pain.

No it isn't. You just think the idea of it is. If you'd actually had to do it, you'd see that in 90 percent of all cases, it's really pretty painless. I had to call to reactivate once when fixing up my mom's computer, and the whole process took about 3 minutes... and that was on Thanksgiving Day. Running the antivirus scan took longer.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[Anonymous Coward]

I may have been too verbose for the main point to become apparent. Here it is in short form:

People are fed up with maintaining their own computers and losing data. Therefore...
People turn to cloud services for basically all their needs (have already or will soon). Therefore...
Most people don't need the (high maintenance) PC anymore and turn to more mobile alternatives, like tables and phones. Therefore...
Mobile devices with touchscreens is where it's at. Microsoft doesn't have market share in that domain. Therefore...
Microsoft introduces a user interface for touchscreens and makes everybody familiar with it by making it the default Windows 8 UI.

The network used to be one important application. When it is the *only* application, a PC is an unnecessary burden that will go away. Sun realized this in the nineties ("The Network is the Computer"), but failed to see that at that time the network wasn't where it needed to be.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't get it...wasn't he talking about Windows 7 being good for 10 years, not XP?

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[jones_supa]

Spoken with the voice of Homer Simpson.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[mcgrew]

Damn it, slashdot, stop giving mod points to shills and astroturfers! charnov's comment was in no way a troll. This will indeed be good for the Linux community for the very reason he stated. And that's probably why they REALLY want "Secure Boot" -- to make it harder for their only desktop competetitor's free product to install, because there will be little else for people to wipe W8 and install KDE or Gnome (I don't like Gnome, BTW).

PS: I do disagree with his statement "taking a masterpiece of design like W7". IMO it's almost as unusable as XP, but just because I disagree with him about that doesn't make him a troll.

I miss the old metamoderation system.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[WaffleMonster]

People are fed up with maintaining their own computers and losing data. Therefore...
People turn to cloud services for basically all their needs (have already or will soon). Therefore...
Most people don't need the (high maintenance) PC anymore and turn to more mobile alternatives, like tables and phones.

Lets assume for the sake of argument everyone is too lazy or stupid to ever want to store anything or run anything on a local computer. I don't believe this bullshit for a second but lets just assume it is true.

What specifically then compells that person to choose metro over a different interface concept? Why should I be limited to only seeing one or two apps on my screen at one time just because I want to live the dumb terminal experience?

What compells me to use a tiny little device with a tiny screen with no keyboard over a PC form factor with large screen and a comfortable full sized keyboard?

Why does UI and form factor matter if your only goal is to punt responsibility for your stuff and save maintenance costs? What is inherit in either goal that necessitates the use of tablets and phones with a prescribed UI concept?

Afterall everyone has access to the same data and programs regardless of the form factor or interface concepts they select. The computers acting as a dumb terminal would be no more or less expensive to maintain than the same computer using a different UI concept or molded into a different form factor. It is much the same internal guts just with a different human interface.

The network used to be one important application. When it is the *only* application, a PC is an unnecessary burden that will go away

Why should access to network resources ever be the only method of application execution? I don't see any logical reason for this to be the case. This seems to be quite a wasteful and privacy reducing access pattern. You can achieve data redundancy and maintenance minimization by offering online backup services.

Last time I checked angry birds is downloaded and .... gulp played locally from local storage using local resources on computing devices of various form factors. In fact the increasing proliferation of apps stored and executed locally is putting negative pressure on the ultimate dumb terminal interface...the web browser. The trend is actually in the other direction AWAY from your silly vision.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[mcgrew]

They did not like having to use a password at first.

Huh? I'm running the latest kubuntu, I haven't had to enter a password in YEARS unless I need to do something as root. There's even a checkbox on the install screen to let you do that.

How do you get Windows to boot without a password? I haven't seen Winodws not need a password since W95. I have W7 on my notebook and I'd love to be able to boot without PW like I do in Linux.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[mcgrew]

With all due respects, Dr. Cooper, are you on crack?*

Or do you just have a reading disability? He said win 7 will be like XP was, not that they're going to keep using XP.

*line stolen from a Nobel Prize winning physicist

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[mcgrew]

It's been my experience as well, complete novices have no more problem learning Linux than it is for them to learn Windows. However, going from any Windows OS to the next version is more of a learning curve than going from any version of Windows to KDE.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[mcgrew]

Nope, sorry, Linux still has major issues with driver, upgrades breaking shit, and with the DE wars and pulseaudio being flaky.

Why do you keep repeating shit that simply isn't true, hairy? I haven't had had any driver issues in over half a decade (I understand that two video card vendors are pretty hostile to Linux), the only upgrade I had that ever broke shit was the latest upgrade; Flash will no longer work because the box only has 750 meg of memory and Flash now needs a gig, but a newer box wouldn't have that issue. As to pulseaudio, Wikipedia says you're full of shit.

Issues
Older versions of Pulseaudio sometimes started to distort the processed audio due to incorrect handling of buffer over-/underruns.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[Billly Gates]

Corporations rarely upgrade the browser that comes with the OS. IT departments are understaffed and do not have time to test browsers.

If they adopt Win 7 then it means they will lock IE 8 with no modern standard support until 2020. That sucks goatballs, but its a demographic I can't ignore and I wonder how I can make it look modern CSS 3 like.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[divide overflow]

I have W7 on my notebook and I'd love to be able to boot without PW like I do in Linux.

1. Google "Boot windows 7 without a password"
2. Find "http://www.computingunleashed.com/turn-off-windows-7-password-protection.html"
3. Follow directions
4. Profit?

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[unixisc]

Windows 7 comes w/ IE9, doesn't it?

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[Anonymous Coward]

IE 8

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[justthinkit]

changing the RAM? That is stupid
.

Paves the way for them to price Windows based on your RAM size, HD capacity, etc.

Re:Linux on the desktop, now?

[mcgrew]

Hey, thanks! I'll try it when I get home. Why does Microsoft hide it like that?

Does it still suck?

[Jeng]

Last preview I downloaded was pretty miserable, is it even remotely useable yet?

If they quit offering Windows 7 when Windows 8 comes out then it may just end up being the year that Linux takes over the desktop market.

Re:Does it still suck?

[Skarecrow77]

you can still buy vista. 7 is going nowhere for several years.

in fact, i forsee an "xp still on sale a decade after release, due to demand" deal going on with windows 7 unless windows 9 is excellent.

Re:Does it still suck?

[MistabewM]

Too bad they have locked down their hardware vendors with UEFI certs etc and it will be a giant pain in the ass for a user to install Linux.

Re:Does it still suck?

[Jeng]

you can still buy vista

Oh god why? Can't they make that against the law or something?

Re:Does it still suck?

[Jeng]

Only on an OEM board and depending on which distribution you want to load. The total application fee to get included in the UEFI cert is $99 so unless you roll your own it shouldn't be too much of an issue.

Re:Does it still suck?

[crutchy]

ebay

Re:Does it still suck?

[Anonymous Coward]

Too bad they have locked down their hardware vendors with UEFI certs etc and it will be a giant pain in the ass for a user to install Linux.

Or windows 7 and xp, I imagine.

Re:Does it still suck?

[Anonymous Coward]

Too bad that prevents any kernel upgrades (a new cert every minor revision) or user kernel recompilations. So $99 for every security update for every non-profit distro. Debian will be verboten. Also the latest Microsoft commandment for "windows certification" is that while you are allowed other UEFI certs, actually adding one or disabling "Secure boot" must render any installation of Windows 8 unbootable to prevent dual boot systems. So it is a wee bit more of an issue that you think.

Re:Does it still suck?

[shutdown -p now]

Only true on ARM, not on x86.

Re:Does it still suck?

[geekoid]

if by locked down, you mean on by default, but you can still turn off, you begin to have a point.

I'm not sure why hardware won't work on other systems since it on'y there to tell windows it's a certified piece of hardware. If the OS doesn't care about it, then it won't matter.

Re:Does it still suck?

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows Vista uses:

Use for the in-laws
Has been used to extract information form terrorists
Used to convince people to "buy a mac"
Hardware benchmarks. Just make sure the hardware you want to beat uses Vista.
Has been known to cause damage to all things Google, Apple, chairs...

Re:Does it still suck?

[jbolden]

I don't think it is going to be that bad. Looking at your user ID, you are going to be able to handle issueing a command to the ROM to either turn off secure boot or use a new cert.

Re:Does it still suck?

[Anonymous Coward]

He meant Vista Second Edition, aka Windows 7
aka "people suddenly forgot it's evil" edition.

Re:Does it still suck?

[humanrev]

People didn't forget anything. Windows 7 just doesn't have the bloatness and sluggishness that Vista...

Oh, you're trolling. My bad.

Re:Does it still suck?

[aiht]

if by locked down, you mean on by default, but you can still turn off, you begin to have a point.

I'm not sure why hardware won't work on other systems since it on'y there to tell windows it's a certified piece of hardware. If the OS doesn't care about it, then it won't matter.

I'm pretty sure the idea is that the motherboard will refuse to boot into any unsigned bootloader / OS.

Re:Does it still suck?

[Anonymous Coward]

Simple way: Just get the cert against GRUB :)

Re:Does it still suck?

[Anonymous Coward]

If they quit offering Windows 7 when Windows 8 comes out then it may just end up being the year that OS X takes over the desktop market

FTFY.

Re:Does it still suck?

[MistabewM]

Its not me I am concerned about getting installed. Its Joe Blow who just bought the machine and wants to try this Linux thing out. People make up their minds very quickly when dealing with new concepts. Microsoft knows this.

Re:Does it still suck?

[jbolden]

Well RedHat has bought a cert for Fedora. I assume Suse will do the same thing. So hopefully Joe Blow gets pushed towards Suse.

I'll wait

[ozduo]

for service pack two, then it might be worth investigating

Re:I'll wait

[tunapez]

That's what I said about Vista. It took all the way to SP 7 to fix that steaming pile. Where Vista nudged me into Linux, I believe 8 will be the last push over the edge.
 
Off to dust off my whiteboard with my CLI commands cheat sheet...

Re:I'll wait

[crutchy]

surely you only need one
ultracoolusername@mypornpyewta:~$ /usr/sbin/pr0n -load -t "gay" -a "60+"

Re:I'll wait

[Anonymous Coward]

Off to dust off my whiteboard with my CLI commands cheat sheet...

I don't think that's such a good plan:

"OH! it's my whiteboard with all my notes that I don't have anywhere else"
*Closes eyes, dust, dust, dust*
"NOOOO!! My notes are all gone!!"

Posting with it now...

[Anonymous Coward]

...Microsoft is doomed. Hope Canonical's download servers are beefed up.

Re:Posting with it now...

[Skarecrow77]

look, i'm writing this from a machine running a canonical OS, but if you think people are going to view windows 8 as a reason to go to linux, i think you're in a pipe dream. they're going to view windows 8 as a reason to stick with windows 7.

Re:Posting with it now...

[Anonymous Coward]

People are switching to Macs in droves. This is just going to accelerate that trend.

Re:Posting with it now...

[tunapez]

Can anyone say 'End User Downgrade Rights'? Vista was actually pretty good for the bottom line after all those XP up...er...downgrades.

Re:Posting with it now...

[busyqth]

Windows 8 : The final triumph of Steve Jobs.

Re:Posting with it now...

[Anonymous Coward]

Ummmm yeah..... about that GUI Canonical is trying to force on everyone......

(Dont think you thought this one out very well)

Re:Posting with it now...

[Anonymous Coward]

Beats the fuck out of Metro the last time I checked, e.g., now.

Re:Posting with it now...

[HyperQuantum]

but but but but... Windows 7 won't stay around forever, right?

is any desktop user going to be upgrading?

[Anonymous Coward]

I mean, seriously? Starting stuff from the stupid Start screen? Cripple the regular version of Visual Studio to only write apps for this screen?

What the hell is wrong with MS? Does it not realise that a desktop is not a tablet?

Re:is any desktop user going to be upgrading?

[busyqth]

I mean, seriously? Starting stuff from the stupid Start screen?

It was so much better back in the day when you started stuff from the shutdown menu.

Re:is any desktop user going to be upgrading?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you mean "downgrading" to windows 8. I played around with the previews thus far, and they are terrible. Terrible enough to where I won't even check out this release preview, or even consider buying a copy when it is released. I'm on Windows 7 for the forseeable future. Hopefully MS will wake up when they develop their next OS iteration, and scrap everything about windows 8.

Re:is any desktop user going to be upgrading?

[Cinder6]

I've been considering getting it for my parents based on the reasoning that my mom at least might find the tablet-style interface intuitive. Looking at it, though...probably not. I have a hard enough time getting her to understand that attaching a Word document to an email is the exact same as attaching a photograph. I don't think I could survive teaching her how to use Metro.

Metro actually is a pretty slick UI on a phone, though the information density in its current incarnation is much too low. I think Microsoft is a little too obsessed with their crusade to make all devices run the exact same copy as Windows. Apple's plan is, IMO, better--bring over iOS ideas that work well on the desktop but keep the underlying UI traditional.

Re:is any desktop user going to be upgrading?

[Bobakitoo]

Does it not realise that a desktop is not a tablet?

They are moving away from desktop, clearing the way for 2013 year of the Linux desktop.

Re:is any desktop user going to be upgrading?

[Anonymous Coward]

They can call it the "Click here if you like a mouth full of dicks" Menu for all I care, as long as it's actually usable. Honestly, the Windows 3.x Program Manager was less over-takey than this bullshit, and that's when screens were sufficiently small and low resolution to warrant it.

Re:is any desktop user going to be upgrading?

[Anonymous Coward]

There may be a bit of complaining at first since it is something new to learn, but I'm guessing that relatively few people will care in the long run. The thing is, very few people spend a lot of time in the Start Menu so its dysfunctionality won't matter very much.

Re:is any desktop user going to be upgrading?

[cant_get_a_good_nick]

I have OSX lion, one of the most awkward features in launchpad, which tries to make the screen like iOS' Springboard screen. Springboard works best when you have hand gestures on a small area, not so useful on a non-touch 20" screen. Thats a lot of mousing.

Metro reminds me of this, touch metaphors on a non-touch screen to show they're changing something at least. At least i'm not forced to use Launchpad on OSX.

Launchers are surprisingly hard to do well. Apple had some bad ones in System 7 and before - At Ease, then morphing into Launcher. And then Control Strip.

Re:is any desktop user going to be upgrading?

[Cinder6]

Yeah, that's the important difference--though Launchpad is lame, at least it's optional. It's marginally more useful on a trackpad than a regular mouse, but I don't use it very often (only if my cursor is near where I know a certain app's icon is going to be when I do the pinch gesture to bring it up). For an example of a good launcher, look to Alfred.

Re:is any desktop user going to be upgrading?

[noh8rz3]

I use launchpad a lot and find it super useful. it's my secondary lauch mechanism - first, progam pinned on dock. then launchpad. then spotlight. if you're complaining about the challenge of moving a mouse across a computer screen to click on an icon, you may be doing it wrong.

Re:is any desktop user going to be upgrading?

[westlake]

I mean, seriously? Starting stuff from the stupid Start screen? Cripple the regular version of Visual Studio to only write apps for this screen?

Visual Studio Express 12 is limited to Metro apps.

Not VS 2012 Pro and higher.Compare Visual Studio 2012 editions

Microsoft encourages the idea that the Start screen is the Windows 8 "home page." From there, a few mouse gestures or a keyboard shortcut will take you almost anywhere you want to go. If you need access to common functions previously available on the old Start menu, you can right-click on the lower left to bring up the Power User list. You can even modify this list, though Microsoft won't officially support or document the method for doing so.

Windows 8 Release Preview Impressions, Windows 8 Tip: Edit the Power User Tasks Menu

Re:is any desktop user going to be upgrading?

[Anonymous Coward]

Express 12 is limited to Metro apps.

Not VS 2012 Pro and higher.Compare Visual Studio 2012 editions

The only thing this change will do is push piracy of VS2012 pro to levels not seen since the express versions came out.
Well played MS..

Re:is any desktop user going to be upgrading?

[betona]

They're violating a cardinal rule in business: Listen to your customer. And that customer has been roaring.

Two easy tweaks to the UI and everyone would settle down: Put back the Start menu and allow it to be the default (make Metro optional).

Re:is any desktop user going to be upgrading?

[Anonymous Coward]

What Launchpad does well is that every new app you put on your computer will show up there, regardless of where it is installed. For the novice user who doesn't understand how/why/where things are installed, this is a good one-stop place for them to find EVERYTHING installed on the computer.

It's also handy when using somebody else's computer at work (we have thousands of macs, and if I jump on another machine, I don't know what's installed on it in one easy place other than Launchpad.

Other than that, it is pretty useless.

IT'S A TRAP !!

[Anonymous Coward]

sNuff nSaid !!

Timewarp

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd use linux but i dont want to code my own drivers, programs, etc...

Hop in your time machine and come and live in 2012...

Re:Timewarp

[Anonymous Coward]

Why? has it gotten easier to code your own linux drivers in 2012?

Re:Timewarp

[jakimfett]

Why? has it gotten easier to code your own linux drivers in 2012?

No, now we have monkeys to code them for us.

Seriously, go download and test out a live ISO of any of the "desktop" linux flavors...Ubuntu (pre-metro), Xubuntu, Mint...none of these have required you to write your own drivers in...well, not since I started using them several years ago.

Re:Timewarp

[Anonymous Coward]

Why? has it gotten easier to code your own linux drivers in 2012?

Yes. Since 1991, we now have gigabytes of Free source code to learn from and O'Reily men write good book on subject.

Re:Timewarp

[crutchy]

on the contrary... i can plug in some things (such as a USB-RS232 converter cable) into a linux machine and use it without loading any drivers, whereas I would have to install the supplied drivers from CD on a Windows box

Re:Timewarp

[geekoid]

Ubuntu doesn't have drivers for my wireless card.

Re:Timewarp

[jakimfett]

What version of Ubuntu are you using? And what wireless card? (for that matter...what laptop/netbook are you using?)

Re:Timewarp

[Anonymous Coward]

Getting wireless networking, certain video cards, scanners and some PMPs working under desktop Linux is still a pain in the ass. The last time I installed Mint, I had to go buy a specific USB wifi adapter and even then, it took more work than it should have to get it working. The Geforce 8600GTS I had in that system also didn't work correctly because Mint would somehow lose the driver on every reboot. My scanner is just plain unsupported and two of my mp3 players didn't work either.

Re:Timewarp

[Anonymous Coward]

use windows drivers with ndiswrapper

Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

Sadly Linux won't take over anything (at least not now). Think Longhorn revolt followed by the success of W7. You gotta take a shot in the dark sometimes and if this turns out to be a ton of crap, they'll listen and go back to what's right. That's generally been the way MS has done things.

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

Sadly Linux won't take over anything (at least not now). Think Longhorn revolt followed by the success of W7. You gotta take a shot in the dark sometimes and if this turns out to be a ton of crap, they'll listen and go back to what's right. That's generally been the way MS has done things.

Exactly. Ubuntu's new Unity interface is the equivalent to Vista. Buggy, shitty, slow, and you have to re-learn where everything is. And who the hell wants to search for everything? How do I know if it's called 'monitors' or 'displays' or 'screen resolution' in their new stupid search menu.

Re:Nothing new here

[crutchy]

nah... more likely they will do what they want, and the rest of the world will just follow suit, at great pains and expense

if you're going to be convicted of monopolisation, you might as well make something of it

Re:Nothing new here

[Robert Zenz]

Stop whining about Unity, start using something else...now get off my lawn!

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought you trolls always trumpeted from the rooftops how easy it was to switch away from windows. Whats wrong? Oh.. you realized that nobody gives a crap. Monopoly or not, people still overwhelmingly _choose_ Windows over Mac and Linux.

Re:Nothing new here

[Anonymous Coward]

they'll continue to shove it down your throat the next release and then change it again the release after. That's generally been the way MS has done things.

FTFY

Re:Nothing new here

[crutchy]

pffft. who's the troll then?

people don't choose windows. if anything they put up with getting windows with a new PC through lack of choice. when you go to an OEM retailer, do you see any choice in operating systems that come with a non-mac system?

even with that lack of choice, more and more people are forking out much more money for the mac

if you think windows is a selling point in any pc, you're a moron, who i would expect to have endless trouble trying to convert to linux, not because it's hard, but because you're a moron (linux wasn't designed for morons; windows caters to that market well enough, and no that doesn't imply that anyone who uses windows is a moron you small-minded fool, it just means you are)

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[jakimfett]

they didn't promise the new UI for pre-release versions. They explicitly said it will be in RTM.

But...the chances of it actually happening for the RTM (if they haven't already gotten the kinks worked out of it) are pretty much Nil...maybe it will be in one of the service packs?

CPU speed?

[spaceyhackerlady]

The /. article before this was about a new overclocking record. Will 7 GHz be fast enough to run this puppy?

...laura

Re:CPU speed?

[Anonymous Coward]

It runs very fast on a 5 year old ThinkPad T61.

The problem is that makes it suck faster as well.

Microsoft Vanishing From Average Person's Life

[Boyer]

Of course Microsoft will still get the massive number of automatic installs due to their lock on OEMs and corporations locked into Microsoft tech, but for every single person I know Microsoft has become a non-entity in their lives.

Over the past few years it has rapidly become cellphones and tablets. No one goes home after work to sit in front of their computer checking their email and webbrowsing. They do that all day long now on their Android phones and tablets or iPhones and iPads. Ten years ago I would hear all the time about what computer someone was planning on buying or what they were doing with their computer. Now it is all about what Android or Apple cellphone or tablet to buy. And in the rare occasion someone actually does talk about buying a new computer it is almost universally a Mac to replace their old Windows machine.

Re:Microsoft Vanishing From Average Person's Life

[Anonymous Coward]

TL;DR - you don't know any PC gamers

Re:Microsoft Vanishing From Average Person's Life

[Anonymous Coward]

I honestly can't remember the last time anyone I know brought up Microsoft or Windows. At least outside of a business environment.

I remember a single person talking about how they checked out a Windows Phone and how much it sucked.

I remember people laughing at Microsoft's piece of shit Xbox 360.

Outside of that I can't remember the last time anyone in real life talked about Microsoft let alone Microsoft in any sort of positive way. It has been years since someone talked about buying a new computer to run the newest Microsoft OS.

Re:Microsoft Vanishing From Average Person's Life

[Quillem]

What you state is, IMHO, for people who use their phones and tablets to do nothing besides mail and casual browsing. I think anything that involves extended typing or requires a more complex level of input still necessitates a laptop, if not a desktop. The desktop is still my most comfortable environment.

P.S. I wonder what you used to type your post :)

Re:Microsoft Vanishing From Average Person's Life

[thunderclap]

ROTFLOL! Thats amusing. Must everyone who is middle income below goes home to their computers checking email and web browsing. Have you tried surfed on a tiny screen? And ipad and Iphones are locked into specific patterns. Just letting you know that this is being typed on a Sony Viao desktop that I am continued to upgrade. Microsoft is shoving the pistol into their mouth this time in the mistaken belief that the base consumer is not their consumer. They believe the oems are. What will happen on launch day? 1000s of computers will be sold opened and then after hours of cursing taken back to Best Buy, Frys, Walmart as broken. Their will be nothing wrong with them but the people will be so clueless they will assume its broken. When the massive wave of returns happens, Microsoft will wake up but it will be too late. They will have blown their own throat out. No Linux wont be there to pick of the pieces. Google will. Chromebooks suck ass but they are easy to use.
People forget before Microsoft was Commodore. Amiga video toasters were used during the gulf war. But bad business deal lead them to be a foot note.
I do believe 7 will be around for 10 yrs. maybe more.
I am willing to bet money on longbets.com that not only will the largest amount of computer returns will happen the month 8 rolls out, but that the start button will return on the first service pack.

Re:Microsoft Vanishing From Average Person's Life

[tao]

No Linux wont be there to pick of the pieces. Google will. Chromebooks suck ass but they are easy to use.

The ChromeOS kernel is Linux.

Re:Microsoft Vanishing From Average Person's Life

[Anonymous Coward]

And in the rare occasion someone actually does talk about buying a new computer it is almost universally a Mac to replace their old Windows machine.

Yep. In EVERY single case where I've helped someone "switch" from Windows to OS X, even the diehard-est Windows users NEVER even turn on their Windows machines ONCE, after they switch. I always make sure that is possible, and even encourage people to "back and forth" until they are comfortable; but they NEVER do.

NEVER. And that is after about a dozen "switches", with users from the quite savvy to the completely non-savvy.

Why are they still releasing Windows?

[HansKloss]

It is such a ugly primitive OS. I moved to OS X and Linux and sometimes have to reboot to Windows 7.
Polished on the outside, ugly on the inside. Still the same widgets from Windows 95 era.

Windows 7 it's like walking into dirty toilet.

For God sake stop wasting people's time and fix first what we paid for. Not another half-baked release.

Metro apps

[Narishma]

Anybody knows why Metro apps are restricted to screen resolutions of 1024x768 or higher?
Is it just an arbitrary limitation or is there a technical reason for this?

Re:Metro apps

[Quillem]

My guess would be that it's similar to the problems Android apps had between Gingerbread (mobiles) and Honeycomb (tablets) - screen size. Presumably metro apps will also run on mobiles.

Re:Metro apps

[ZeroSumHappiness]

Probably to ensure support for limited resolution tablets. It would probably make more sense to require a 1024x768 layout and allow any other layout in addition but that imposes more costs, particularly support costs, on Microsoft.

Re:Metro apps

[shutdown -p now]

Simply put, it's so that Metro app developers don't have to concern themselves with supporting anything smaller.

IF YOU WANT TO PIRATE A COPY

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

Here's a working activation key:
TK8TP-9JN6P-7X7WW-RFFTV-B7QPF

Re:IF YOU WANT TO PIRATE A COPY

[DRJlaw]

IF YOU WANT TO PIRATE A COPY

If activation works in the release preview like it did in the consumer preview, there will only be one "activation key" for the publicly downloadable copy. Presumably, that key activates it for the limited time period and each copy will expire or de-activate on whatever their target date is.

What you're suggesting is about as far from piracy as you could get. I personally 'pirated' the consumer preview because the tail end of the official download (which I tried 3 times on that release day) was corrupted by whoever's transparent proxy service I had the joy of unknowingly using. Probably Time Warner's, as I've had corruption isses with other large downloads from official sources for other software.

Odds of Microsoft coming after you for torrenting freely available 'free' previews are pretty darn low. They have bigger fish to fry.

Re:IF YOU WANT TO PIRATE A COPY

[Joe U]

OMFSM! HOW DID YOU GET THAT KEY!?!?

oh, right http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-8/iso

 

Re:IF YOU WANT TO PIRATE A COPY

[mister_playboy]

He was being sarcastic.

Re:IF YOU WANT TO PIRATE A COPY

[nmb3000]

IF YOU WANT TO PIRATE A COPY

Here's another one!

FCKGW-RHQQ2-YXRKT-8TG6W-2B7Q8

Re:IF YOU WANT TO PIRATE A COPY

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

I recognise that! It's for XP Business.

Re:IF YOU WANT TO PIRATE A COPY

[Anonymous Coward]

fuck GW, redhat QQ's 2, why ex-racket, 80 G6's win, to be seven, cute eh?

2600 OUT

Re:IF YOU WANT TO PIRATE A COPY

[Frag-A-Muffin]

Pirate? That key is given right on the download page:

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-8/iso

Perhaps I'm missing the joke? He is a 3 digit /.'er, and I'm only 4.

Re:IF YOU WANT TO PIRATE A COPY

[MurukeshM]

In the FAQ, they have listed yet another key if you want to use Windows Media Centre.

Re:IF YOU WANT TO PIRATE A COPY

[Anonymous Coward]

I recognise that! It's for XP Business.

Yep, pre service pack 2! ah the good ol days....

Re:IF YOU WANT TO PIRATE A COPY

[Anonymous Coward]

that activation code looks oddly familiar...

Re:IF YOU WANT TO PIRATE A COPY

[ilsaloving]

Ok... hands up how many people actually recognised that key *on sight*?

Now raise the other hand if your next thought was, "Wow... I really DO need to get laid..."

Re:IF YOU WANT TO PIRATE A COPY

[sootman]

I once had a copy of Win95 OEM SR2 that I installed so many times (at a 3-man used laptop place) that I memorized its key. Big timesaver, that. :-)

Once, I typed it in wrong (transposed several numbers, like '67019' instead of '61097') and it also worked.

Re:IF YOU WANT TO PIRATE A COPY

[Anonymous Coward]

itz not working for me plz help

Re:IF YOU WANT TO PIRATE A COPY

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

What do I DO wiz PART0 FILEZ? PLZ HXLP!

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[trifish]

Source? Remember: Vista Aero was introduced in RTM too.

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[Anpheus]

I'm really tired of people spreading stupidity about Win8, and the irrational fear of the future that seems to have gripped the tech rags and social sites I visit. There are legitimate concerns that Windows 8 will be a Vista style flop with changes too substantial to be readily adopted by consumers or businesses. Then there is your inanity.

I will wager you $250 (payable to charity) via longbets.org to put your money where your mouth is. The wager would be that the RTM release of Windows 8 lacks the flattened, opaque interface previewed in a screenshot in the Building Windows 8 blog post on May 18th.

Otherwise kindly shut up.

PC Gamers? Are Those Like Amiga Gamers?

[Anonymous Coward]

The PC games section at the local computer chain is being constantly being pushed into the back where no one ever goes. The shelves are half empty and look like some pathetic garage sale. I can't remember the last time seeing anyone actually enter the PC gaming section.

But let me guess...you're one of those faggots who calls their computer his 'rig'. Don't ya dipshit?

Re:PC Gamers? Are Those Like Amiga Gamers?

[Anonymous Coward]

The PC games section at the local computer chain is being constantly being pushed into the back where no one ever goes. The shelves are half empty and look like some pathetic garage sale. I can't remember the last time seeing anyone actually enter the PC gaming section.

probably because they buy all their games online

Re:PC Gamers? Are Those Like Amiga Gamers?

[Anonymous Coward]

One word: Steam.

Re:PC Gamers? Are Those Like Amiga Gamers?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like you have anger management issues. And perhaps doubts about your sexuality. Perhaps you should seek help before you accidentally open your mouth in real life and get hurt.

PS. I have to go back to my 'rig' now. Hahahahah!

Re:PC Gamers? Are Those Like Amiga Gamers?

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL, some little faggot who uses the word 'rig' is playing Internet tough guy.

I'm 6'6", 240 lbs and hit the gym 5 days a week. Been arrested for knocking some little punk like you out face down in pool of blood from a shattered nose with a single punch.

The last thing your faggot self would be worrying about about is me making fun of your gay little name for your computer if your pansyass was running your mouth off to me in 'real life'.

Re:PC Gamers? Are Those Like Amiga Gamers?

[BlackSnake112]

Amazon, Newegg, and other online places that sell stuff. Buy the game online. It gets shipped to you. No need to go to a store.

Re:PC Gamers? Are Those Like Amiga Gamers?

[Anonymous Coward]

So...you're big and fat and trying to lose weight? We're all laughing at you now.

Re:PC Gamers? Are Those Like Amiga Gamers?

[Anonymous Coward]

You go to the gym 5 times a week because you dig the "rigs" in the changing rooms.

Like "working out" with the other guys, dontcha?

Re:PC Gamers? Are Those Like Amiga Gamers?

[Anonymous Coward]

240 pounds? That sounds like a fat shit to me with homophobic/closet gay thoughts on the side. Maybe you should start actually working out and stop looking at people's junk in the gym and fantasizing about it.

Re:PC Gamers? Are Those Like Amiga Gamers?

[jez9999]

That thing that requires one to connect to the internet to play a game that has no internet requirement for play? Oh yeah. Fuck Steam. Fuck the concept.

Re:PC Gamers? Are Those Like Amiga Gamers?

[Missing.Matter]

That thing that requires one to connect to the internet to play a game that has no internet requirement for play?

This is false. You can play single player games without an internet connection just fine.

Linux over Windows 8

[Anonymous Coward]

I see people mention "It will then be the year of Linux". I doubt that. If the common user dislike Windows 8, they will just turn to Mac's. They already using the iPhone and like the Apple products. This could be a year of the Mac more than Linux. Just go to Best Buy and stand in the computer department and wait for the common people come in and look for computers and then ask them, "have you thought about Linux instead of Windows?" Most would reply, "What is Linux?"

Re:Linux over Windows 8

[Robert Zenz]

I see people mention "It will then be the year of Linux".

Just don't listen, those are mostly idiots or trolls.

Pretty and all ...

[Quillem]

... but what are the reasons why I would need to upgrade from W7 to W8? Besides the HTML5 interface shenanigans, is there any ground-breaking feature that makes it attractive? I moved to W7 (from XP) only because of expanded memory support, 64-bit and improved driver support out of the box. I'm quite happy with it and feel no necessity to move up.

My Linux upgrades nowadays are LTS only and even those are delayed until something (usually a package without reliable backports or better driver support) absolutely demands it. Maybe I'm simply getting old, overly patient and content?

And In A Non Related News Event

[LifesABeach]

Tomorrows sunrise will be at 5:42am.

Why upgrade?

[optimism]

This is a dead serious question, so please do not downmod because it doesn't agree with some corporate agenda. ;)

I currently run Windows XPSP3 on 7 laptops, and 1 desktop, at home. Behind a NAT firewall. I've never had a virus or other security problem. I re-image and update approximately every 2 years because, yes, Windows does slow down and break with age, and I also want a backup of the latest apps. But otherwise XP works great, with minimal interference,on machines with as little as 800Mhz P3, 128MB RAM.

I think that most folks here realize that Vista was an intentional boondoggle to make Windows 7 look better. But in total seriousness....why would I move from XP to 7 or 8?

Thanks.

Re:Why upgrade?

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows 8? No idea. Windows 7? Because you get the same goodness of XP with improved usability.

Re:Why upgrade?

[shutdown -p now]

Win7 has a slew of features that you may or may not like; if you do (most people seem to), it's a question of whether you consider them worth the price.

It's really impossible to answer your question precisely. If you are absolutely happy with XP and can't see how it could possibly be any better, then you probably don't have any reasons to switch (until support ends entirely, that is).

Re:Why upgrade?

[Mashiki]

There's no reason I can see. From XP to 7 you get DX11 which is a bonus plus better handling and proper handling soundlayer system. From XP or 7 to 8? Maybe the filesystem, but I can't see that being a huge thing for the average person. Not for you, not for me. There doesn't appear to be anything specific for directX either.

Oddly, I've been running Win7 for the last 3ish years(Original Install Date: 10/28/2009, 11:44:46 AM) and have yet to reinstall it. It seems to be running as fast as the day I installed it no less. Though I'm building a new rig in July or August so I'll be able to tell then. Though to be honest I have been running it off a OCZ Vertex as well, so that might have something to do with it. At worst I've noticed the boot times a bit slower the last 2 months, but I think that's because the drive is getting close to it's EOL, or might need a secure erase.
 

Re:Why upgrade?

[optimism]

Win7 has a slew of features that you may or may not like

Such as? This was exactly my question.

It's really impossible to answer your question precisely

Why? It is a piece of deterministic software, not a religious conundrum.

you probably don't have any reasons to switch (until support ends entirely, that is)

Also assuming that any support is relevant. I do keep all our Windows machines updated at least once a year, but frankly, I'm not sure how important that is since most of them run behind a firewall. The FUD does not seem to apply in this case.

Re:Why upgrade?

[Avidiax]

Eventually XP may no longer be practical, the hardware you have may fail, etc.

You are right that there's nothing compelling you to switch, just as there's nothing forcing you to drive a car with ABS, seat belts, fuel injection, etc.

The killer feature for Windows 8 is the tablet interface, but for that to matter, you'd need to buy a tablet.

Re:Why upgrade?

[geekoid]

Memory support,and about 1000 other modern abilities.

Since many people actually run new software, XP is won't work for them.

OTOH, you can't even manage your XP machines correctly, so I'm not sue upgrading is a wise thing for you to do.

Re:Why upgrade?

[noh8rz3]

i really like win 7 for a couple reasons. On a new computer, the interface is pretty slick. IE9 is a really awesome browser, and I think it's win 7 only. Same for office 2010, I'm not sure it's xp compatible.

Re:Why upgrade?

[BlackSnake112]

Are you installing XP 64 bit? It looks like you are not. Some people have a need to put 4GB or more of RAM in the computer to work with the huge images files, video files, and other huge files. If you don't that is fine. Some people want to use the faster CPUs that are out. To use the newer CPU they need to use a the newer motherboard. That motherboard may not even have XP drivers. Or those drivers are buggy as hell since the motherboard manufacture thinks people are not using XP that much. There are reasons to switch. You just do not have any.

Even when I used P3s, I did have 512MB or maxed the motherboard out. XP ran a lot better then with 128MB. If you can find the RAM try it. You might just see XP running faster.

Re:Why upgrade?

[jbolden]

1) You want to run newer applications
2) You want to use newer hardware
3) You want to to run older applications on more demanding data
4) You want some of the collaboration features for phone / tablet...

Otherwise no reason to upgrade. I know a woman who still writes on xywrite with a dot matrix printer since everything is setup perfectly for her. When she's finished she hands a floppy off to an editor who translates it. Old computers still work. Ask the mainframers.

Re:Why upgrade?

[optimism]

You are right that there's nothing compelling you to switch, just as there's nothing forcing you to drive a car with ABS, seat belts, fuel injection, etc.

That metaphor is thoroughly broken. The safety and efficiency benefits of ABS, seat belts, and fuel injection are provably worthwhile. Also, these have been standard features on most cars for the last 15-45 years. There is absolutely no comparison.

The question was, what features would inspire me to upgrade from XPSP3 to 8?

I'll add: what would inspire me to take the massive hit to performance and resource consumption? Again, note, one of my still-running machines is a P3 800Mhz 128MB laptop, which performs very snappily with XP. It serves video and plays MPEG2 DVDs.

The killer feature for Windows 8 is the tablet interface, but for that to matter, you'd need to buy a tablet.

Fwiw, two of our seven laptops are Thinkpad X-series tablet PCs. Yeah I know, the definition of a "tablet" has changed in the last few years, but these "tablets" have pressure-sensitive wacom stylus digitizers, and one of them also has a resistive touch-screen layer. Both running Windows XP Tablet PC Edition 2005. So...what does Windows 8 add, feature-wise, above this OS? That was really my original question.

Re:Why upgrade?

[SIGBUS]

Of course, you have to rely on audio hardware vendors actually supporting the nifty new Windows 7 sound layer. If that vendor happens to be Creative, you're screwed, particularly if the product is discontinued. Case in point: the E-MU 0404 USB, which has a beta Windows 7 driver that hasn't ever been updated.

It works beautifully on an XP desktop system, and recent Linux kernels seem to support it at least for playback. On Linux, the Clementine audio player works well, but I like Foobar2000 better. Unfortunately, Foobar2000 doesn't work in Linux except under Wine, and Wine doesn't work all that well with the 0404 USB.

I tried running XP under VirtualBox with the 0404 USB passed through, but that just doesn't work - virtualization and timing-critical hardware are a bad mix. I hate the idea that I'd have to dedicate a box to running XP just for audio purposes and nothing else, but that might be what happens unless I can find an audio player that manages my music collection as well as Foobar2000. As it is, I do anything important (email, online banking, etc.) from Linux.

At any rate, I have no compelling reason to go to Windows 7 let alone Windows 8. On my last go-around with Windows 8 CP, I hated it - they're making the same mistake, albeit in a different direction, that the Unity and GNOME 3 developers are making. A tablet UI is great for a tablet, not for a desktop.

As for Creative, I learned my lesson the hard way - don't buy their gear.

Re:Why upgrade?

[optimism]

Memory support,and about 1000 other modern abilities

Memory support...my XP machines do max out at 2.0GB to 3.25GB depending on the mobo. But this isn't a problem. The OS and many services easily run in a couple hundred MB, without virtual memory. My biggest memory consumer is a web browser, which may exceed 1GB with lots of tabs and plug-ins, but that usually only happens on my main work machines. So 2GB is far more than enough for most of the machines.

What are the "1000 other modern abilities" that you seem to think are provided by Windows beyond NT/2000/XP?

Since many people actually run new software, XP is won't work for them.

Strange and funny. I have heard many people complain about their old software not working on the recent windows versions, but I've heard absolutely no one complaining about software not running on XP. Do you have any example? Even just a single, oddball, unusual example?

OTOH, you can't even manage your XP machines correctly, so I'm not sue upgrading is a wise thing for you to do.

Can you explain what, exactly, you think that I am not doing to manage my fleet of machines correctly? Imaging and periodic updating/reimaging are standard practices in any major IT organization I've encountered. As are replacing hard drives at regular intervals. What do you think I'm doing wrong? Thanks!

Re:Why upgrade?

[yurtinus]

Most useful to most users is the real live 64 bit support (can use > 3.5GB of RAM), support for DirectX 10, excellent driver support out of the box, and a few other bits and pieces (I'm no expert on win 7...).

The parent post is exactly right that you can't answer the question precisely. It's a general purpose operating system. Some purposes can be fulfilled with windows XP, some can't. Basically - If you don't know why you should upgrade, you probably don't need to.

Also, don't forget that direct network access (ie: something a firewall would block) isn't the only vector for malware. I'm sure you know how to protect your machines, but many people assume a firewall or an antivirus program is the end-all solution to allow them free and promiscuous web browsing... With most end of life OSes the lack up security patches isn't a big concern, but that's because they went EOL before malware on the internet "went big" and there's nobody attacking them.

Re:Why upgrade?

[optimism]

Are you installing XP 64 bit? It looks like you are not. Some people have a need to put 4GB or more of RAM in the computer to work with the huge images files, video files, and other huge files.

Correct, I run 32-bit, because 64-bit gives no benefit for my applications.

I do work with lots of video and large image files. Rarely more than 30 megapixels/image though. 30 megapixels * 3 bytes = 90 megabytes in the buffer, a rather small number compared to a modern bloated web browser running a few dozen tabs, flash, java, acrobat, and silverlight. A 2GB machine is more than enough for this.

Really, I was just looking for any features or enhancements that might steer me towards Win7 or Win8. The impression I'm getting from replies here is that there are no worthwhile features/enhancement, just for support for new hardware that I don't need.

My biggest CPU usage is video transcoding. For that, it's going to take a long stretch of cycles regardless of the processor, so I don't have a problem throwing a machine at the problem for 30 minutes instead of 15 minutes. It's not like I'm waiting on that machine to do something else.

Re:Why upgrade?

[optimism]

Most useful to most users is the real live 64 bit support (can use > 3.5GB of RAM), support for DirectX 10, excellent driver support out of the box, and a few other bits and pieces (I'm no expert on win 7...)

Thanks, those are real details.

I'm not a PC gamer, so I don't have any need for more than 3.5GB (actually 3.25GB on our biggest system) RAM, nor DirectX 10. The most extreme stuff I do is video transcoding. Second, realtime video and image editing. Third, video playback with various codecs, ranging from mjpeg to avc/h264. But I leave the games for our consoles.

Re: drivers, I do use lots of odd pieces of hardware like serial microcontroller programmers, DMX controllers, dataloggers, Arduinos, 3D 6dof controllers, Bluetooth audio bridges, GPS devices, scanners, etc. Never had a problem with any XP drivers. However I'm fairly sure that some of these devices do not support more recent Windows versions.

Also, don't forget that direct network access (ie: something a firewall would block) isn't the only vector for malware. I'm sure you know how to protect your machines, but many people assume a firewall or an antivirus program is the end-all solution to allow them free and promiscuous web browsing... With most end of life OSes the lack up security patches isn't a big concern, but that's because they went EOL before malware on the internet "went big" and there's nobody attacking them.

Thanks. Yeah, I hope I'm aware. I've been using Windows since v3.0 and Mac since System 6 (not to mention OS/2 and other client OS's). I did pick up a USB-key virus on one machine a few years back, before MS finally patched XPSP3 to really allow you to turn off autoplay without the registry hack. But that experience just convinced me that new OS versions, which keep doing more "auto" stuff, will only have more attack vectors than the old ones...

Re:Why upgrade?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're not running old obsolete hardware... Windows 7 REALLY is an upgrade.

Assuming you have a multicore machine with at least 4 gig. If its not at least that. Who cares what you run.

And 7 can be stripped and cleaned FAR more than xp ever could be. Getting it down to running tight, fast, and with minimal maint compared to xp.

As much as i hate microsoft and don't use them by choice. I grudgingly admit windows 7 is pretty good. (once you remove the useless bullshit, which there is alot of compared to xp)

Re:Why upgrade?

[Anonymous Coward]

You should have learned the lesson about creative labs about a decade ago man..

They been screwing us for as long as they've been around. And it's gotten much worse on windows/other than it ever was in the old dos cards where they got their big name.

FUCK CREATIVE LABS.

Re:Why upgrade?

[bertok]

What are the "1000 other modern abilities" that you seem to think are provided by Windows beyond NT/2000/XP?

The OP was exaggerating, but Wikipedia keeps a fairly comprehensive list of improvements, some of which are quite substantial:

Features new to Windows 7
Features new to Windows Vista

A lot of these are under the hood, and not very obvious to non-technical users, but they're there. Improved security is a big plus for corporations. For me personally, the most noticeable improvement is the new networking stack, which can get 100% of Ethernet wire speed in more circumstances, especially high-latency but high-bandwidth broadband links. Windows XP cannot ever get 100% of 1Gbps once the latency is on the order of one millisecond, or 100% of 100MBps with 10ms, etc...

Strange and funny. I have heard many people complain about their old software not working on the recent windows versions, but I've heard absolutely no one complaining about software not running on XP.

Selection bias.

They're only running software that works on XP because -- duh -- they can't run software on XP that doesn't run on XP!

There's software now that doesn't run on XP but does run on Windows 7, but -- of course -- nobody with an XP desktop would have that software running on their desktop.

Some things run on both, but run better on Windows 7. Some newer games make good use of the multi-threaded graphics APIs, and can fully utilize multiple cores, boosting performance. I saw some games double their average frame rate after upgrading to Windows 7.

Re:Why upgrade?

[JDG1980]

But in total seriousness....why would I move from XP to 7 or 8?

Because XP will stop receiving security updates after mid-2014, while Windows 7 is covered through 2020. That's the biggest reason. Also, some newer software (i.e. anything that relies on DirectX 10+) won't run on XP at all. Most Web browsers have incomplete or no hardware acceleration in XP, but full acceleration on Windows 7.

Windows 7 is also more intuitive, less crash-prone, and (IMO) more aesthetically appealing. Aero isn't just eye-candy; hardware acceleration actually makes it faster than XP, despite what you might think. I don't like the combined "dock" thing that it defaults to, but it's not hard to get back the old Quick Launch bar and traditional-style taskbar.

Re:Why upgrade?

[optimism]

IE9 is a really awesome browser, and I think it's win 7 only. Same for office 2010, I'm not sure it's xp compatible.

Exactly what do you think is "awesome" about IE9 or Office 2010 on Win7, that is not provided by the earlier versions on XP, or by Firefox and OpenOffice?

Thanks in advance for providing some actual details.

Re:Why upgrade?

[shutdown -p now]

Such as? This was exactly my question.

Well, for example, I really love the new taskbar, personally - it's like OS X dock done right. And using Win+1..9 to switch apps is very fast, much faster than Alt+Tab. But for you it may be a minor thing not worth mentioning, or may even be a mis-feature, in a sense that you actively dislike it (and while you can make it look a lot like XP, it won't look 100% the same). That's what I meant when I said that it's hard to say.

Some other features I personally like would be: libraries - it's a bit like unionfs (albeit more high level - which unfortunately means that it doesn't appear as such in command prompt); the ability to dock windows to the edges of the screen; mounting VHDs; WMP being able to play DVDs; PowerShell. I also use DirectAccess to access my work intranet - it's like a zero-configuration transparent VPN that only redirects the traffic that needs to be redirected (implemented as IPv6 tunnel over IPsec) - but that needs server-side support.

If you just want a laundry list of the various new things, then Wikipedia has it (though you'll also need to look at one for Vista to get the delta between XP and 7).

Re:Why upgrade?

[Billly Gates]

Off the top of my head Windows 7 offers

Security wise
- Offers better process and privileged seperation with much more secure services to prevent exploits
- UAC
- Secure boot for 64 bit version to prevent rootkits
- Signed drivers in 64 bit to prevent malware and rootkits
- Full DEP for all services and not just some
- ASLR random memory addressing to prevent a peak and poke exploit to execute malware
- Improved sandboxing using ASLR for Internet explorer
- VS 2010 has secure exception handling to prevent buffer overflows and data execution and it comes with IE 9

Performance
- MUCH improved SMP and scalability support for Phenom IIs, Icore5s and Icore 7s.
- No more n^o paging for swap HELL even if the system has lots of free ram (correct me as I forgot the NT algorithm for paging that was replaced)
- SATA/PATA command queing async support rather than single sync
- GPU support for business graphics in aero. THis is usefull is you do things like desktop publishing or multi media heavy powerpoint slides
- H.264 support with full hardware acceleration
- USB 3 support
- Thunderbolt support
- Sleep mode instead of hibernation
- UEFI secure boot (I know this one is political) But nice if you want to be rootkit free

Usability
- Aero peak lets you use the cursor to scroll over minimized programs and IE tabs and it will show a small preview. I use this everyday with lots of things running
- Aero has a side by side feature where you can drag things left or right so you can have one document next to another. I think its called Aero snap
- Awesome search feature making start menu obsolete. Just click the Windows key and type ex ..."Excel 2010 pops up" and hit enter key!. Shoot what was our sales in assets in 2009? Type WIndows key and "Sales assets 2009" and viola excel and word files show up with those key phrases. When I was in college I had hundres of excel and word documents and switched back to slow Vista just for this feature. Fucking cool to reference things. This day I panic when I go back to XP. I am so used to typing Windows key cmd in 1/5 of a second to open a command prompt etc. You will hate XP after trying this
- clear aero means you can see Windows behind Windows
- Saved searches
- Version of IE that doesn't suck and has hardware accelerated graphics and Firefox 3.6 support of HTML 5, ajax, and css 3. Not too bad and is secure. For offices this is great as these poor saps stuck with IE can at least have a modern web experience of this decade.
- Websites can be added to the taskbar as apps. Nice for that salesforce app for work
- Jumplist for minimized items. For example I can right click on the CHrome app on the taskbar and select a frequently visited website.

Reliability
- Trim support. SSDs only last for a year if you are luck. WIthout Trim the life of a SSD in XP is weeks or months if you have lots of space if you are really lucky.
- User mode driver isolation. If a driver fails it wont bluescreen but instead a wizard will pop up and a trouble shooter. The XP ones just had screenshots but the Win 7 will diagnose and even fix a problem
- Restore and shadow volumes. THe restore on XP does not really restore other than try to put some files back and forth. Win 7 restore will restore the registry as well and use metadata to recover even deleted items! Very cool indeed

Windows 8 improves (ignoring METRO) in addition to inheriented Windows 7 features

- Windows ToGo so you can boot with a flash drive to fix a system. About damn time as Linux had this since 2005
- Moving profile on a flash drive (forgot term). You can have your whole desktop, metro apps, and even your files and settings moved between work and home.
- Remote management and app support without AD or VPN. If you sign on with your tablet or desktop with your corporate email you can have your profile and even programs uploaded to your device!
- Very very fast boot times on old hardware
- A version of Internet E

Re:Why upgrade?

[Billly Gates]

I also failed to mention that Windows 7 supports HomeGroup. For example when I installed Windows 7 on my desktop it automatically opened my share of my documents from my laptop on the wifi network and even the PS 3 is accessible.

If you have many computers in your home they work instantly without setting up shares and opening up things in your router so each device can see each other etc. Very cool for the wifey or kids. The turn on their device and stream media without caring where it is.

Is it enough that you would want to leave XP? That is up to you, but certainly it is an upgrade over XP anyday.

Re:Why upgrade?

[Billly Gates]

One thing that Wikipedia wont tell you is that networking is still a weakness of win 7.

I am talking SMB and AD. Windows 7 fixed many issues in Vista but not all. If you have lots of ARP tables and lists of things left in directories on AD it will freeze Windows 7 at the welcome screen. XP works fine.

AD gives error messages about trust relationships and Win 7 is more picky with stale AD objects left on the network over XP.

I am in favor of Win 7 over XP but some businesses wont upgrade yet because of this. Sure win 7 has more throughoutput but the SMB protocol sucks in win 7 over XP.

Re:Why upgrade?

[Billly Gates]

I listed safety improvements in Win 7 on my other post over XP. TO me win 7 is the OS with ABS, seatbelts, and sidebars and other improvements.

As someone who does XP to win 7 migrations I can tell you malware infections drop quickly after upgrading. I have seen HUGE malware come in through flash ads that Avast catches. I would not be surprised if your XP machines are infected and you may not know it. That alone makes XP inappropriate for internet use in 2012 in my opinion.

Re:Why upgrade?

[0123456]

I also failed to mention that Windows 7 supports HomeGroup. For example when I installed Windows 7 on my desktop it automatically opened my share of my documents from my laptop on the wifi network and even the PS 3 is accessible.

Yeah, making all your documents available to the entire network by default is a brilliant advance in security policy.

Re:Why upgrade?

[Admiral_Grinder]

For a while I was developing on a Windows 7 box and having to support XP systems. Things I found I really liked and missed working on the XP box were:

• Real 64bit support
• Full sym-link support. (Yes you can install junction on XP, but it wasn't safe to use in Explorer)
• Aero Snap - Dragging windows to edge of screen to take up half the screen (does not need Aero active)
• The 'Users' folder.....finaly Unix like user data speration.
• File searching in explorer windows. Still needs work but very much improved over XP
• Expanded options on the copy/move files dialogs. (kinda mixed on this though since the new dialogs slow the operation down)

I'm a little disappointed in hiding some of the configuration panels behind "user friendly" summary screens but in all I would recommend upgrading

Re:Why upgrade?

[noh8rz3]

happy to oblige. IE9 doesn't work on XP: http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/ie/forum/ie9-windows_other/ie9-for-xp-why-doesnt-internet-explorer-9-work-on/e8113f20-b149-4763-b4d4-562d1da524b6

i looked up office 2010 and it does work on XP SP3, so I take it back. but office 2010 is way cooler than office 2003.

vis a vis firefox I have both ie9 and ffx installed side by side and usually use ie9. I've never used open office.

Re:Why upgrade?

[Billly Gates]

Windows 7 has different networking profiles when it attaches to a different network. It will ask you if its a business, home, or public wifi/lan. Homegroup only works at home so there is no security risk if you use the same laptop at an airport as Windows 7 will detect if its a EAP wifi and be public only.

Re:Why upgrade?

[unixisc]

In the long run, upgrading to 7 is a good idea for one reason - IPv6. It will still have a firewall, just that it won't be NAT. There's also the issue of XP support ending completely, to the point that there won't even be security updates (you've never had a problem, but you do have anti-malware software on these 9, don't ya?) But yeah, if your computers have 128MB of RAM, then upgrading to 7 is not an option, in which case, just stay w/ XP.

Re:Why upgrade?

[Mashiki]

Yeah creative is junk, and have been for a very long time. I think the last card I owned of theirs was a SB!Live, from around 2001, and I used it right up to the point where it failed and died a couple of years ago. I'd recommend Auzentech or Asus Xonar. I prefer the Xonar series of soundcards myself.

Though if you're not planning on gaming, and you're not planning on anything related to working with DirectX or anything like that. You're probably going to be happy just sticking with XP.

Re:Why upgrade?

[unixisc]

If you had on a computer 4GB of RAM or more, then Windows 7 is what you'd need to use, since XP's 64-bit support is really primitive. If you're okay w/ all your computers capped @ 2GB, then XP is just fine.

Re:Why upgrade?

[ilsaloving]

TL;DR version: If your current computer does exactly what you need now, and you've taken steps to protect yourself against it's security holes, there's no need to upgrade.
---
Depends. Firstly, ignore Vista because it's crap. Windows 7 is what vista should have been.
Generally speaking, Windows 7 has architectural and security enhancements which improve stability and security. There are less use cases where doing something forces you to reboot.
There are a ton of other interesting features (such as full disk encryption), but I won't list them because they are only relevant if you actually have a need/use for them.

eg: If you want a machine with >3.5GB ram, you need a 64-bit version of windows because Microsoft artificially crippled the max ram the 32-bit versions can use.
64-bit windows XP was useless because the varying problems you run into outweight the benefits of having a 64-bit OS. Windows 7 64-bit is significantly better, and there's a lot of software that were written to support Win 7 64-bit but not XP 64-bit. That being said, unless your machines are relatively modern, you would have to buy a new one to use Win 7 anyway because it will simply run poorly on older hardware.

ISO? Where?

[Yvan256]

I went to http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-8/release-preview and all I got was a 5MB .EXE file.

Kind of pointless for those of us who want to try it via VMWare or similar.

Re:ISO? Where?

[Anonymous Coward]

You can either click on the Download ISO highlighted text on the same page or run the app you downloaded and it will create an ISO for you. Why don't you read the page you download from?

Re:ISO? Where?

[Spad]

It's a small link but it's there: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-8/iso

Re:ISO? Where?

[shutdown -p now]

The link was there, it's just not up in your face the way web installer is.

Windows 8 RP: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-8/iso
Windows Server 2012 RC: http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/evalcenter/hh670538.aspx
Visual Studio 2012 RC: http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=247147

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[shutdown -p now]

You assume that the work on RTM only starts after RP is shipped to public. RP build is actually about a week old (says so right in the blog post), and the corresponding branch forked even earlier than that.

Steam??? LOL!

[Anonymous Coward]

Valve's shitty game download service?

Yeah, that will make up for PC games almost vanishing from the average consumer in retailers across the world.

The dumb fucks still stuck putting out games for the PC have no choice other than dump their crap on Steam.

Funny how you constantly hear stories about developers making millions putting out Android and iPhone games, and yet Steam...

Re:Steam??? LOL!

[noh8rz3]

i like the onlive service. AAA games, and i don't need a fancy rig.

Re:Steam??? LOL!

[jjohnson]

Steam is doing great, and vendors selling games through Steam are very happy with it. EA copied Valve with it's own system, and they're doing great guns too.

WTF are you smoking?

Sure

[Sycraft-fu]

Just get me all the apps I need and I'll move on over.

Does it have better monitor resolution support?

[cplusplus]

I tried Windows 8 on a netbook that has a touchscreen display... perfect for Windows 8, right?!! However, my netbook's display has a max resolution of 1024x600. Unfortunately, all the nice fancy new buttony looking Metro apps enforce a minimum resolution of something like 1024x768 and will not run if you're monitor doesn't support that resolution. This means that every single damn button/app/whatever-they-call-it on the default Windows 8 Metro UI didn't work. I can understand why Microsoft would enforce minimum requirements, but still...

Re:Does it have better monitor resolution support?

[shutdown -p now]

Metro requires a minimum of 1024x768 - that has been stated a year ago when the first beta came out, and has not changed since then.

As for why - minimum requirements are there so that app developers have some baseline to code against.

Experiment then refinement...

[aaronb1138]

I think a lot of people are missing a few really smart choices it would appear Microsoft is intentionally making. First, they realize that corporate customers like their long term anchor software. They have done that with Windows 7 as the successor to XP as frequently mentioned. Second I think they are going to a release plan of Experiment followed by a Refinement release.

Consider first that Microsoft supports too many customers with too diverse of requirements to be doing miniscule yearly feature releases as with OSX and Linux. OSX can because they have fixed hardware to support and a vastly smaller software library. Linux can because the community doesn't have anywhere near the hardware support of Windows and software is not binary compatible a requires recompilation.

Faced with this issue, it only makes sense that Microsoft will release an OS filled with experimentation to find out what users and customers do a don't like and then make the next version the refinement, enhancement, and trimming of those features. Vista was full of UI experiments which were great ideas but only marginally implemented or just didn't flow easily. I couldn't stand Vista and only used it a few hours before going back to XP. I know I am by far not in a minority in having this experience. Windows 7 was taking all those features and fixing them, making them flow and interact together and getting rid of the development cruft. Windows 7 is great for many users, myself included.

Windows 8 is filled with great ideas. It's filled with original ideas and people are complaining. Sure, Metro came from WP7 development, but nobody else considered using the metaphors for desktop use or how to adapt them. Again the number one complaint is incompleteness or not enough UI interoperability with the manners in which users have become acclimated. If Microsoft continues the pattern, then sure, some consumers will be forced to be guinea pigs with Windows 8, especially if the Windows tablet market takes off appreciably. In the same stroke, Windows 9 could easily come as the refinement stage where it all makes better sense.

Who cares if Windows 8 is a dog. Vista was a dog and it led directly to 7. Give some credit to a company that could sit on it's old style of business like IBM in the late 70's, but instead challenges itself with products which can fail and are interesting and different.

Linux by comparison has no consistent desktop metaphors. You have to test drive at least 3 different distros before you are sure which one will work. The only nearly consistent interfaces are the ones released at the same time as XP in stripped down distros. Unity is not bad, but it's just not for me. The more recent release is really getting there though. It's great experimentation in a different direction for fusing the desktop, laptop, and tablet UI segments.

OSX is the opposite of where Linux and Windows have been experimenting. There is an extreme lack of interesting change since 2001 and only very small incremental refinements. Oooh, we just got a notification system, but really it's the one from our phones because we couldn't stand the thought of using a functional desktop one like in Windows 7 or Linux. You could actually load identical machines with OSX from 10 years ago and the latest Mountain Lion side by side and the average user wouldn't notice that they were different. If you think I am full of it, check this out: http://macgateway.com/featured-articles/a-decade-of-mac-os-x-a-retrospective/

Re:Experiment then refinement...

[vallette]

Who cares if Windows 8 is a dog. Vista was a dog and it led directly to 7. Give some credit to a company that could sit on it's old style of business like IBM in the late 70's, but instead challenges itself with products which can fail and are interesting and different.

Microsoft cares if Windows 8 is a dog. They're betting the farm on this release. They desperately need this to work as a gateway to the mobile space, an area they're hopelessly behind in, and they don't have another couple of years to get it right.

Apple's actually made a number of very significant improvements to OS X over the last 10 years but they also recognized the UI paradigm is fundamentally sound for the desktop space so there's no reason to make radical changes. Of course they also realize that an OS is not a one-size-fits-all product.

Re:Experiment then refinement...

[jbolden]

You are right that Apple's interface is very stable. Mainly because they pulled so far ahead with interface in the early 2000s. That being said the GUI has gotten way way better since 10.1.

Quartz Extreme
Universal Access (this was huge for lots of people)
Fast User Switching
Expose
Preview later: instant alpha, graphic extraction
Quicktime integration
Spotlight
Dashboard
Automator
Integrated H.264/AVC
Resource forks handled by command line
XCode visual modeling, remote debugging, integrated reference library
Integrated Dictionary
Quartz Composer
Webclip
Stacks
iChat integration
Podcast Capture
Spaces
3D dock

and that's just to 10.5.

Re:Experiment then refinement...

[theswimmingbird]

Actually somebody did think of using WP7 on the desktop.

Re:Experiment then refinement...

[Zaelath]

You assume OSX is perfect then? For example, their choice to make the maximise window button not maximise the window, that's ideal?

The aluminium and liquid look is still fresh?

FTA, this one made me LOL: "Many PC owners were still using Windows 98, unwilling to become early adopters of Windows XP after the Windows Millennium Edition debacle, and resorted to using various skinning programs to make their computers look more like Macs."

Someone alert Oxford, "many" has now been redefined as "the infintessimal overlap of the sets, 'have technical skills' and 'value aesthetics over function'."

Re:Experiment then refinement...

[aaronb1138]

I actually use Omnimo on a Windows 7 tablet, so I am very aware. Rainmeter, LiteStep, geoShell, and similar hacker oriented UIs were not within the scope of my discussion. I was talking at the original developer end or the discussion.

Re:Experiment then refinement...

[aaronb1138]

You've got it. Plus the skinning communities the article mentions did very little with emulating OSX outside of Y'z dock, AquaDock, and later ObjectDock. The larger communities where LiteStep and geoShell which espoused completely different, largely appliance or functionalist oriented desktop UIs along with the extreme minimalists. Few OSX themes ever came out. Some OSX style XP styles were popular, but had nothing to do with the actual OSX UI functionality.

Re:Experiment then refinement...

[aaronb1138]

Microsoft does not care if Windows 8 is a dog in the corporate desktop world. That is why the features which people are most unhappy with are entirely features which are great on tablets and other touchscreen devices. They are working on getting Windows 8 right for the mobile space. It is entirely reasonable to think their plan is to let Windows 9 tie that effectively with the desktop. Also, the OEMs are starting to push touchscreen desktops substantially. Once Windows 8 gets some adoption, it wouldn't be surprising to see off the shelf monitors in the consumer / commodity price range pop up with touchscreens as cheap options. IR touchscreens are really cheap to add manufacturer side and fit great with existing LCD bezel design.

I would never say Apple hasn't made a lot of good changes to the backend of OSX, but the UI still feels worn and heavy. Sure, consistency is great, but it just says to me that people use their computers exactly the same way they did 10 years ago, and that is sad.

Re:Experiment then refinement...

[aaronb1138]

Most of what you point out has little to do with end user interaction, except as it pertains to development of program UIs. Universal Access, Dashboard, Stacks, and Spotlight come as exceptions there. They are great features I don't deny.

Regarding Universal Access especially, I'm a frequent commenter that software tort law changes for ADA issues for ALL software developed for end user consumption, Microsoft especially included due to Office's UI not scaling with system DPI settings. Similarly, either the OS developers or a large standards group needs to come up with a universal API for software to work effectively with Braille and TTS systems.

Re:Experiment then refinement...

[0123456]

Also, the OEMs are starting to push touchscreen desktops substantially.

Who the fsck wants to sit at a desktop holding their arm out to touch the screen all day?

Re:Experiment then refinement...

[jo42]

Apple's actually made a number of very significant improvements to OS X over the last 10 years but they also recognized the UI paradigm is fundamentally sound for the desktop space so there's no reason to make radical changes. Of course they also realize that an OS is not a one-size-fits-all product.

Then why are they beating OS X with the iOS dumb stick?

Re:Experiment then refinement...

[Anonymous Coward]

So you're saying it's fine for a massive company like Microsoft, who can afford to throw millions or more into designing, testing, and redesigning their software, to release crappy beta software as a ready-for-market product, and actually take people's money for it? Just because they did it with Vista/7 doesn't make it right. If I pay 3 digits for a product from a company the size of Microsoft, I expect the kinks, bugs and idiocies to have been worked out of it long before it hit the shelves.

Linux: What you call "no consistent desktop metaphors", I call "choice". And why test-drive 3 different distros when I can just test drive 3 different window managers under one distro? Not that test driving a distro is particularly arduous in these days of live CDs. A lot less hassle than, say, reformatting your HD or setting up a virtual machine. Oh, and don't say things like "Linux doesn't have the hardware support of Windows" on Slashdot. It isn't true, and you will get called out on it, and everyone will assume you are either a shill or an idiot.

Finally, why in the world do I want to fuse my laptop, desktop and tablet 'segments'? It's been said a million times on this very website but some people refuse to listen:
I DO NOT WANT A TOUCH SCREEN UI ON A MOUSE-DRIVEN COMPUTER!!!!! Is that really so hard to understand? Really?

Re:Experiment then refinement...

[jbolden]

Those things are all UI. They might be beneath the covers, like the very first one "Quartz Extreme" but that's what allows for GUI effects. Saying that those are UI changes is like saying engine changes don't effect driving.

Finally.

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been waiting to move from XP for years. Now can safely install Windows 7.

Reasons to move from XP

[RuaisLampSilog]

I simply can't find any reason to move away from XP, but 64 bits support (very crappy on XP 64) Can somebody here give some of the good reasons one should take the time and pain, to migrate to a new OS that doesn't seems to make anything new, no breakthroughs, nothing I can't do on XP?

Re:Reasons to move from XP

[couchslug]

If you need nothing new, don't upgrade until you do due to driver support.

I keep various XP and 7 VMs and install them for customers, but have no use for either as a primary OS. Ubuntu does fine for that.

Re:Reasons to move from XP

[Billly Gates]

Look at my post here?

Windows 7 is a very significant upgrade and even the smallest features listed can save much aggregation due to half the infections, a system restore that works like a time machine with snapshots, and many other improvements.

Re:Reasons to move from XP

[perryizgr8]

one good reason: 7 is much faster than xp, if you have decent hardware.

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[s.petry]

To me, the bigger issue is what we saw on /. earlier with the forced secure boot on all PC based hardware. I personally don't give a rats ass how pretty the screen is. I want something that performs and is stable, hence why I try not to use any version of MS Windows or MS products in general.

Is Windows 8 really as bad as people say it is?

[DaneM]

So, I briefly tried Windows 8 Consumer Preview months ago, and found it utterly counterintuitive. Still, seeing as I ran out of patience after about 10 minutes, it's possible I just never got to the "good part." I don't presently have the energy to download and fiddle with it again, so I'm requesting input from those who are doing/have done so.

A lot of people seem to have complained about how "bad" it is, but until now, they may have just been going from a buggy "Preview" copy. Can those who have tried this latest version confirm or deny my initial assessment? Do the people on Slashdot think this is going to be another Windows Vista (or worse)? (Any bets on how long it'll take for MS to fire Steve Ballmer, if the latter?) ;-)

More importantly, will future versions of DirectX be available in Windows 7? That's basically the only reason I still use Windows--for games...(Steam can't come to Linux fast enough, IMHO.)

Re:Is Windows 8 really as bad as people say it is?

[Anonymous Coward]

Dont worry on the games front if yer on win7 now.

Games makers are just now moving away from supporting xp majorly. And into vista and 7. lol

Theres a big lag time between a new os and the games supporting it enough that the next directx starts being required in the next versions.

We got 5 years at least before worrying about fucking around with dx flavor, os, game bullcrap.

Re:Is Windows 8 really as bad as people say it is?

[Raistlin99]

I haven't tried the new one, but I've been running the consumer preview since it was released on an Acer netbook. It seems to run better than the previous Windows 7 home that was on it. I've also used Win8 on a Samsung Series 7 tablet. On the netbook, I don't really see a difference between it and previous versions of Windows. The Start screen works with the mouse and the Metro apps work like I would expect and the desktop apps are the same as Windows 7. On the tablet the touch interface takes some time to get used to. The swiping to switch between apps "feels" different. The Start screen works well and the metro apps are good for touch interface. The desktop interface works reasonably well with touch, but a stylus improves the experience.

Re:Is Windows 8 really as bad as people say it is?

[Anonymous Coward]

"I don't presently have the energy to fiddle with it."

Oh no, not your ENERGY! Should we call the energy doctor?

For fuck sake, put down the Big Mac and walk around the block. Then "fiddle" with it again. By the way, you don't have to download it again UNLESS YOU DELETED IT! No wonder you don't have enough energy. Stupid wanker.

Re:Is Windows 8 really as bad as people say it is?

[ciscocontractor]

So, I briefly tried Windows 8 Consumer Preview months ago, and found it utterly counter-intuitive.[...]

I felt exactly the same way, but being a Windows "Start Menu" user since it was created in Win95, I must just be resistant to change, right? (I'm a "Ribbon" hater too, FWIW)

So I got my 8 year old son to try Win8 CP a few weeks ago on his computer, and he had never used anything but Win7. He didn't like it either. I'll quote directly:
"I can't find anything... Those buttons are all big and messy and keep getting in the way when I open different things. Can you put it back the old way?"

The 4 year old on the other hand loved it. Since I actually HAD a touch-screen monitor from an old Point-of-Sale system which worked (surprised me), and he only likes to do about three things with the computer, it was pretty simple to setup. He knows to press on the photo of him to start his 'page' as he calls it, and then press on the button for the game he wants. They all still need a mouse to run of course, but he could drive a mouse before he could talk. :)

Re:Is Windows 8 really as bad as people say it is?

[DaneM]

Thanks for the comments.

I'm also a "Ribbon" hater, so I suspect that at least part of the problem is the user getting something other than what he expects. Still, kids are very keen learners, so the 8-year-old's sentiments probably carry more weight than that of an old "fuddy-duddy" like me. :-) Like other "mobile-type" interfaces, it doesn't surprise me that it works for those wanting to do only a small number of simple tasks--like the 4-year-old does. Personally, I'm rather nonplussed about the trend of making all GUIs like mobile GUIs; why do we have a nice, big LCD, keyboard, and mouse if we're going to pretend we have to use a finger or stylus for everything?

Of course, I don't like Unity, either, as one might expect--but I know that a lot of other people do (and don't). Sometimes, I think that GUI designers of the day are changing everything just because they're bored...and I wish they'd stop! /rant

No luck in VMWare Player

[Experiment 626]

I downloaded the 64-bit ISO and installed it in VMWare Player 4.03. It got to a point a bit after the first reboot, then died with a "DPC_WATCHDOG_VIOLATION" blue screen. So if you want to casually check Win8 out without setting up a box, apparently not all visualization solutions work right with this OS.

Re:No luck in VMWare Player

[Anonymous Coward]

This is addressed in the fine article. Go into your PC's BIOS and enable advanced virtualization technology.

Re:No luck in VMWare Player

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, assuming you have a computer new/expensive enough to have advanced virtualization technology.
All but my one of my processors are VT/SVM free (the only one that IS SVM capable is a Sempron 140), and none of the motherboards have IOMMU capabilities.

Kinda lame if that's true since qemu ran vista fine (albeit slowly) on these boxes what.. 4-5 years ago?

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[Anonymous Coward]

METRO, throwing the UI under the bus.

Windows 8 now available to download

[dgharmon]

I've been Windows free for over a year, and I ain't going back !!!

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[jakimfett]

No source, just a long track record from Microsoft of releasing "The Next Big Thing" in a very broken state. Also, This Guy wants to make a bet with you.

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[SCPRedMage]

Metro: good idea for touch-oriented systems, such as tablets and phones.

Having Metro available on desktop systems: Good idea.

Metro as default UI on desktops: Good idea for newbies, so they have a recognizable interface across multiple form factors.

FORCING Metro on people who don't want it: WHAT THE FLYING HELL WERE YOU THINKING?

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[Anonymous Coward]

Jesus fucking chris! misinformation everywhere. Maybe if you gave a rats ass you'd be better informed.

The secure boot was only for arm based devices (TABLETS) that will carry windows 8.

I wonder if the anti-MS bias at slashdot will ever die down.

Sometimes this place make fox news look like a legitimate place to get news from.

Oh boy...

[Anonymous Coward]

You could actually load identical machines with OSX from 10 years ago and the latest Mountain Lion side by side and the average user wouldn't notice that they were different.

Is that necessarily a bad thing? And is it even, by the wildest stretch of the imagination, true?

You'd be a complete fool to claim that Apple hasn't added anything meaningful to their operating system in tens years. Spotlight, Automator, Virtual Desktops, the App Store, Dashboard, the ability to create custom keyboard shortcuts for ANY menu item, searchable menu items, bundled productivity apps like Garageband and iMovie, etc. are all examples of changes that are tangible and positive.

The fact that those things aren't obnoxious, obtrusive, and distracting to the average user is a fantastic thing.

Enjoy using your stinky Windows.

Don't care

[whitelabrat]

Super. Don't care.

Live CD?

[axlr8or]

Can I run this in a box on Debian? If not, I won't bother testing it.

to bad mac needs new limited choice high cost hard

[Joe_Dragon]

to bad mac needs new limited choice high cost hardware.

I say apple have a $1200-$1500 desktop that is not a AIO or get ready for hacked mac os installs.

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[Anonymous Coward]

The secure boot was only for arm based devices (TABLETS) that will carry windows 8.

Partially correct. It's also for x86 devices, the only difference is that it's mandatory with no ability to disable for ARM.

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[hairyfeet]

You wanna see how REAL people deal with Win 8? Well here you go and as a retailer that set up a Win 8 CP for customers to try I can say that is pretty typical...the only difference I saw was more frustration and cursing.

I'm sure Win 8 is GREAT for cell phones and tablets, along with touch screen PCs...the problem is that is less than 5% of MSFT's market. in fact if you take out POS and Kiosks last numbers I saw had touch enabled X86 units at less than 2% of the market.

So you take a giant shit on 95% of the market.,...for 5% of the market and around 2% of the touch screen X86 units because POS and Kiosks run their own custom software. yep, no chance of a flop at all here. BTW Win 8 DID help my business, i had a lot of folks that were sitting on the fence buy Win 7! Thanks MSFT! Oh and thanks again for the year and a half of extra money as I get paid to wipe it off like i did Vista, that was a GREAT time for me, Thanks MSFT!

Whoops!

[Anonymous Coward]

Not sure if this is for real but a few AV's are complaining about some files holding Suspicious.Cloud.7.F.

No way

[JDG1980]

Not even considering Windows 8 until we can get the Start button and the real Start menu back, and until Metro can be completely disabled for those of us who simply aren't interested.

Fortunately, Windows 7 has extended support through 2020, more than enough time for Ballmer to get the boot and Microsoft to come back to its senses.

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[Billly Gates]

Mod parent up!

This is a serious problem for novices. Windows 95 may have froze a few users as well but it was pretty easy to figure out within 5 minutes. The _ is minimize the square is maximize and X closed ... ok check ... how do I do something? Click start -> then the task you want to do. For example shutdown is listed. The lady in that video above within 18 minutes did not see it visibily. ... ok check.

Want to run Word hmmm I want to start it right? Ok start -> hmm is it a program in all programs? Ah Word click.

You get the basic idea. Metro is more challenging for these reasons and not logical to find things. For example how do you have multiple tabs in IE 10? Now how do I cut and paste a hyperlink from one tab to another? On the IpaD Safari has tabs that you can click on to accomplish this. Cut and Paste is not a power users function anymore unlike in 1995. People today are more computer literate but using strange random touch gestures is not appropriate. I hate gestures to be honest.

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[shutdown -p now]

And the flat theme is there, actually. Look at the scrollbars, or the buttons, or the checkboxes. Or just fire up Explorer and look at its ribbon.

Aero as in "distorted transparency for window headers" is not gone (yet?). But the new widget theme is there.

Oh, and mouse cursor - it hasn't got a shadow anymore. Welcome to Flatland.

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah it's really sad. As someone who loves *nix and also manages Windows, some of the Slashdot crowd manage to come off as completely biased, ignorant zealots.

Here is some food for thought. With the Powershell advancements made in 2012, I believe Windows server environments will be EASIER to manage than *nix environments? Why you might ask? Because once you script out a solution, it is universally transferable across the marketplace. Plus, remoting completely obliterates anything that *nix has to offer.

Don't get me wrong...I still love me some linux. But some of these folks need to get a clue before blindly bashing anything Microsoft.

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[Gadget_Guy]

Vista Aero was introduced in RTM too.

Not according to Wikipedia. It claims that Aero first made an appearance in Vista Beta 1 and that it was feature complete by build 5270 (the December Community Technology Preview). After that there were many releases including Beta 2 and Release Candidates 1 & 2.

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[Anonymous Coward]

You obviously have not read the Microsoft Windows Hardware Certification document. Secure boot is on by default and it is optional for the vendor (ie dell) to allow you to turn it off on new computers. ARM based devices MUST have this feature on and cannot be turned off.

M$ bashing is simply anyone with half a brain pointing out how Microsoft is locking up the personal computer market for their gain, not yours.

ha ha

[Anonymous Coward]

i see what you did there!

Windows 8 vs Gnome 3

[Anonymous Coward]

So what has the better UI: Windows 8 or Gnome 3? ;)

Re:Windows 8 vs Gnome 3

[pbjones]

This isn't the final Win8 GUI, so you have to wait.

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[cynyr]

wtf is the difference between an arm tablet and an x86 tablet (other than CPU arch)? will I notice much on gentoo or fedora?

Anyways, yes the issue is that to have the win8 client sticker you must ship with MS's key (and optionally more) and Secureboot must be enabled by default.

Sure you can allow users to turn off secure boot, but because UEFI doesn't specify the UI to do this, how does the linux community document the steps so that ma and pa normalperson can do that? "go into UEFI by pressing the correct button for your system, once there navigate the screens and turn of secure boot. Next boot and install linux.

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[0123456]

I wonder if the anti-MS bias at slashdot will ever die down.

After Windows 9 requires Secure Boot so we can't run Linux any more to get on the Internet and post here.

Re:to bad mac needs new limited choice high cost h

[Hamsterdan]

That's *exactly* what has been missing from their lineup. A mini tower with standard processors and hardware. Now it's either an underpowered mac mini, a non-upgradeable all-in one, or go all the way to a 2500$ machine. That's exactly why I've hackintoshed my installation.

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[VortexCortex]

I bet you one quadrillion dollars that you just simply can't not use the Internet for the rest of your life (payable to charadity) via longbets.org. Otherwise stick it so far up your ass it sounds like your previous comment again.

WINDOWS 8

[Anonymous Coward]

congratulations to MS for the new OS but don't you all think that it's just the same pattern they are doing really....
See
XP -Good
Vista-??
7-Good
8-??

I tried the Consume preview and It's the Most Horrid OS I ever had...

Printshop replacement you say?

[bornagainpenguin]

The hardest part was finding an application that let them do what print shop did.

Well don't hold back! What did you find that worked?

VirtualPC, Windows7 and Windows8

[unixisc]

I have a question. Currently, Windows 7 supports XP applications through VirtualPC, which is probably exclusive to this purpose. Can someone install Windows 8 in VirtualPC under Windows 7, so that one can live w/ the familiar Windows interface, and whenever one needs to run either legacy XP apps or Metro apps, one can open a VirtualPC session for the appropriate OS and then run it. Or will there have to be a future version of VirtualPC for this purpose, or one has to use a third party virtualization software like Virtual Box or VMware?

Assume that anybody doing this has adequate firepower to support the configurations that are needed.

a wooping 2.4GB

[devent]

Wow, a wooping 2.4GB ISO for the preview.

My Linux Fedora 16 uses 12GB for the system, with things like Latex, Eclipse, Java, Firefox, KDE Desktop with lots and lots of KDE applications, Mysql, LAMPP stack, Gimp, Inkscape, and many more applications for video, audio, office, XBMC etc.

Does Windows 8 now ship with a useful notepad yet?

Re:a wooping 2.4GB

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah.. a Linux fan who wants MIcrosoft to bundle even more software. Will wonders never cease? Where were you during the anti-trust case?! :-P

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[TheInternetGuy]

I wonder if the anti-MS bias at slashdot will ever die down.

That's sort of like asking if the anti-Satan bias in heaven will ever die down. Or perhaps the anti-Jesus bias in hell, I'm not completely sure which is which. Perhaps I should just stick to car analogies ....

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you joking? Slashdot was founded on the principle of MS hating.
According to Slashdot, MS can do no good. But Apple is just dandy since their OS has relation to the almighty Linux.

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[hairyfeet]

Thanks but frankly Metro just pisses me off. hell it doesn't even follow cell phone UI conventions as you point out with iPad and Safari, and I watched time and time again as normal users, smart people that do complex tasks on and off a PC daily, ALL ended up just frustrated and upset. Upset with themselves that they couldn't just "pick it up" which i told them the thing is so screwy and unintuitive NOBODY is just gonna "pick it up" without a HELL of a lot of trial and error, and frustrated with the OS that tasks that they have found trivial to do for years and years were suddenly as alien to them as if I dropped them in front of a CP/M machine's blinking cursor.

For another good take on metro just read this article where he goes step by step through what is wrong with the UI, but his number one reason i agree with completely, the entire OS is made for touch and touch above all...when was the last time you saw a touch screen desktop in the average home? How many touch screen laptops have you seen lately? Is YOUR desktop or laptop a touch screen? Mine isn't yet without a touch screen it feels like you are fighting it every damned step of the way. Hell I wish I had the link because one of the articles praising Metro started with "And here I'll show that you can even use it on old hardware! Right now i have loaded it onto this touch screen AMD Athlon laptop and I had to LMAO because even when he was plugging metro he had to dig up a laptop with a fricking touch screen!

In the end if you aren't one of the 3-4% that have a touch screen desktop or laptop Win 8 is pointless and will just irritate the living hell out of you. I honestly tried to like it, I really did, in fact i used it as my main OS for nearly a month. But the constant switching between metro and desktop, the constant feeling of fighting the OS, the major step backwards in multitasking...it was just too much. I've run the beta of every MSFT OS since Win2K and I even fought Vista for nearly a year before giving up (I was one of those bit by the file transfer and the lost network shares bugs) but Metro is just too much of an unintuitive PITA for me to deal with anymore, I'll pass MSFT and so will my customers.

OH look.. a first time poster with a troll post.

[Anonymous Coward]

OH look.. a first time poster with a troll post. All this "no one i know" and "nobody does this" crap doesn't mean anything outside of your little zealot bubble. Hate to break it to you, go outside in the real world. Hundreds of millions of people are inside this "nobody" group who continue to use their desktops for very real things.

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[Anonymous Coward]

So you take a giant shit on 95% of the market.,...for 5% of the market and around 2% of the touch screen X86 units because POS and Kiosks run their own custom software

But MS knows that the desktop market's growth is slowing. Possibly even at a stand-still. They also know that the "touch"/"tablet" market is still in it's infancy, and has tremendous growth potential ahead (witness the success of the iPad).

This is what Windows 8 is aimed at. They know most "desktop" people will stick with Windows 7. That's okay. Because eventually, we'll all be using *mostly* tablets whether you like it or not, and Windows 8 will be there for you when you switch. Of course, desktops will still remain for the certain productivity uses that they're required for (coding, desktop publishing etc.) but I can virtually guarantee that that 95%/5% split you talk about now between desktop (95%) and tablet (5%) will be the other way around in 5 years time!

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[SilentMobius]

Actually it's forced secure boot _by default_. On x86 hardware MS requires the ability to add keys or switch off secure boot, true, but they also require any PC that is Win8 certified to refuse to boot anything else _unless_ the user disables secure boot in the BIOS. It's all about barrier to entry,

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[unixisc]

In terms of UI, Vista was fine. Yeah, it was somewhat slow and more of a resource hog, but shutting down the sidebar, for instance, did improve things. There wasn't much of a learning curve involved in going from XP to Vista (aside from the new organization of the control panel). But in 8, things are totally different, and there ain't even the option of going w/ the Windows 7 look. In XP and Vista, by contrast, both of them allowed one to select, say, the Windows 2000 look by default.

One thing I'm wondering. Currently, Windows 7 supports XP applications through VirtualPC, which is probably exclusive to this purpose. Can someone install Windows 8 in VirtualPC under Windows 7, so that one can live w/ the familiar Windows interface, and whenever one needs to run either legacy XP apps or Metro apps, one can open a VirtualPC session for the appropriate OS and then run it. Or will there have to be a future version of VirtualPC for this purpose, or one has to use a third party virtualization software like Virtual Box or VMware? Assume that anybody doing this has adequate firepower to support the configurations that are needed. At least, that way, one can support Metro apps under Windows 7 in the same way that one can support XP apps under Windows 7.

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't respond to hairyfeet, but this is a SHILL.
He's just copying stuff I've seen in verbatim on several other websites that I won't name. Lazy SHILL doesn't even alter the script he's given. SHILL SHILL SHILL.

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[Anonymous Coward]

Then, Wikipedia is incorrect, as usual. Don't read that shit.

Directlink

[Anonymous Coward]

http://preview.windows.com/

so you do not need to read through a crappy blogpost.

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[hlavac]

I wonder if the anti-MS bias at slashdot will ever die down.

It won't. Karma is a big thing around here, and we still remember what Microsoft did over the years. No amount marketing or astroturfing using shill accounts can fix this.

Yep, Karma is a bitch!

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice rant, but who is Chris?

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[Anonymous Coward]

They were thinking, how can we save our windows phone from android and ios and in so doing becoming the next Palm? Solution we will dumb down Windows OS, so developers have to make metro apps that are compatible with our shitty metro phones.
Brilliant what other choice do user's have, the average user won't move to linux or ChromeOS, OSX laptops and computers are too expensive, and Microsoft won't let OEMs sell Windows 7 after Windows 8 is released.

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone installing an OS themselves will not have any trouble turning off secure boot. Everyone else will be getting their OS with their new PC, regardless of whether that OS is Windows, Linux, or OS/X.

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[Billly Gates]

I do not see developers rushing to make Metro apps like they did with IOS and then Andriod.

Maybe I am wrong here, but there is a consensus that no one cares and it will flop. I just do not see a demand for it. I am surprised there is no Andriod applet viewer yet since it is based on Java for Windows yet. That would rock

Vista had a terrible color scheme. I tried VistaGlaze and it messed up my laptop when Vista SP 1 came out. The colors and the dark borders and Office 2007 just were dark, out of contrast and hideous right there with the fisher price theme in XP. MS makes some truly horrible graphics and detail contrasted with Apple.

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[Billly Gates]

Wouldn't it be ironic after 2019 when Windows 7 support ends, that everyone starts switching to macs? Businesses start using VM and citrix for their old apps (probably still requiring IE 6). Actually the thought is lubricious just a year ago but I am getting serious. Windows will lose if not already its strangle hold on consumers and the only reason business users use MS is because everyone else uses MS. Of course their mcCrappy AV, and other business apps are needed but with clouds and VM and Citrix you no longer have to be stuck on win32.

I tried the preview again. It is improved, but MS missed the point. Why do I want something so crippled that I can not even use tabs on IE? My touchpad still can't do cell phone UI gestures like zooming in and out. But why?

People are not jumping up and down for removing features and running one app at a time and single tasking on the job. It is just a fact of a limitation of a 4 inch cell phone screen that people can't. Not because people are demanding it.

Nothing is logial about it unlike Windows 95 where all tasks were under Start. Menu's were added by Apple for a reason. CPM and DOS required people to already know all the commands and a menu puts them there for someone to select. That 1984 ease of use is gone under METRO. MS is hiding things and not because people want it.

I just can't see how you can have 12 tabs open, 3 photoshop images, some php tools, Outlook, and Word open while you cut and paste from all of them and get a workflow going with Metro. Even the improved hot corners can only show one program at a time with peak. That is impractical compared to aero peak under Windows 7 in my case. What a shame since Windows 8 has a nice kernel and features. Too bad Gates and Balmer own 60% of the share of their company. Balmer needed to be fired a long time ago.

I'm inclined to agree... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

MS' marketing team's forgotten a "cardinal rule" of sales: "You can't sell folks what they do NOT want"... of course, from their "pov", it's probably an attempt to "create/invent the market" instead

* No "big fan" of this METRO interface stuff by ANY means here...

(No more than I was about Office "ribbons" (dumb, changing what folks have used for DECADES in menu-driven interfaces, to something that more closely resembles hieroglyphics/pictures in tabbed menus basically - not the same, introducing unfamiliarity & odds are, rejection)).

Still - I suppose that IF any large company can afford a loss? It's Microsoft... & as you stated hairyfeet, by examples of WinME (Vista too)??

They've been there before/done that, & gotten PAST it too, mistakes & all.

APK

P.S.=> Have I tried it? No, & I don't intend to either, unfortunately, & yes - even despite it being a "smarter" OS @ the core, what-with self-tuning/self-terminating services (when you don't need or use them? They self-shutoff: SMART, but only what tweakers have been doing for ages to Windows, & before (DOS TSR &/or *NIX daemon tuning for example)), & also?

BETTER "service isolation" (meaning they no longer run as much as the SYSTEM entity, but, instead run in lower privelege entitities like Network Service or Local Service instead)...

HOWEVER: BOTH of those things ARE achievable though on modern Windows since Windows 2000 (before that too), by manual tuning/tweaking means though. I covered it in guides for speeding up Windows &/or securing Windows, for ages, since 1997 onwards online publicly in fact.

So, that said? Do I "NEED" Windows 8?? Nope. Simply because I can do what I feel is the "best of" Windows 8, on earlier Windows versions...

Would METRO be a nice/good user interface on a phone though? SURE/Yes.

On a desktop PC though?? Not imo @ least... apk

Re:I'm inclined to agree... apk

[hairyfeet]

But you SHOULD try it APK, after all it is free and runs in Virtualbox and frankly the whole "WTF are they high?" moments you'll get when running it make it VERY entertaining. Hell you've got an i7 so its not like running a VM is even gonna make that chip sweat, so try running it for just a half an hour and see what a difference it makes. i can tell you it was like tying a boat anchor to my workflow, it just doesn't have any consistency and it feels like you are getting slapped around between the desktop and metro (which you can't turn off BTW, it runs even when you are just using the desktop) so its REALLY entertaining, in a MST3K bad movie kinda way.

I mean good lord man they ripped off the UI for the mid 90s AOL crapfest so how can you NOT try it just to laugh your fucking ass off?

Something like this:

[Zanadou]

Mark my words, this is what will go down:

1. Microsoft release Windows 8. Every hates it because the Metro interface treats them like they're fucking morons who don't know what a mouse is.

2. Pirate group releases a version of Win8 that has slip-streamed ddl's (or whatever), from Windows 7, making Windows 8 the same as Win7 with the start menu, but with Win8 menus, files copy dialogs (nice!) and drivers, etc., Is released on tpb, and so on. Becomes an instant, instant hit.

3. OEM's and legitimate home and business customers/purchasers of Win8 also note that their legitimate Win8 keys also work/validate in the setup of the pirate Win8/Win7 hybrid release. (Technically, not even piracy. (ianal.)) Thus, the pirate Win8/7 hybrid release become even *more* popular.

4. Microsoft notice. Issue the usual take-down notices. Then, with GREAT fanfare, they release Windows 8 SP1 (or, Windows 9??)... a virtual clone in contents and scope as the Win8/7 hybrid pirate release. Microsoft claim the "improvements" in SP1 are based on their "own research and feedback"; everyone else in the world thinks, "Oh, yeah, right."

5. During all this time, Ubuntu/Unity will still suck.

Re:Something like this:

[neminem]

I was with you, up until the last couple sentences. Maybe early 2000s-era Microsoft would've done that. Current-day Microsoft is more likely to just stop at issuing take-down notices and/or suing, because their UIs are just so totally perfect and we all just need to get used to them instead of trying to live in the past. Until the next new version that's even more perfect.

(s/perfect/annoying)

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[mcgrew]

I want something that performs and is stable, hence why I try not to use any version of MS Windows or MS products in general.

Performance and stability are no longer a probem, as least as far as I can tell with the notebook that came with W7 preloaded. My problems with Windows is their unuseable interfaces, the "Microsoft way or no way" as well as Windows' lack of features compared to KDE. Oh yeah, and needing to reboot the damned thing at least every two weeks to apply patches. Why in the hell should I have to boot the OS to apply a patch to an application?

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[mcgrew]

Put the chair down, Steve.

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[hairyfeet]

Not gonna happen Billy, and here is why: 1.-Jobs NEVER wanted the low end market, he made that clear, and Cook is following the Jobs playbook. The majority of PC sales are in the under $700 segment, the vast majority under $500. Apple will never offer an X86 product in that line and even for just average users an iPad simply can't replace a PC. 2.-Even with just my back of a napkin math Ballmer has pissed away a several BILLION dollars on mistakes, rushing the X360 to market with a known flaw alone cost them 2 billion in repairs. With any other CEO he would have been fired years ago, but being Billy's little buddy saved his ass. Not this time, I seriously doubt after Vista and the nearly 1 billion blown on Nokia that came up with NO growth will another massive failure be tolerated. You look at the man's track record and it just stinks.

So here is what I think is gonna happen: Win 8 bombs, OEMs keep selling 7 almost from day 1. Ballmer tries to cover, making it look like a win but is kicked off the board along with Sinofsky (sorry if I didn't get his name correct) and one of the office guys is brought in, possible Ray Ozzie is brought back. Win 9 goes back to the Win 7 base along with some nice new features and improvements and mobile is basically cut loose, given total freedom but having to pass/fail on their own. Whether this will work on not will be seen but its obvious you can't push into ARM sales by pushing Windows, nobody wants WOA because you can't run X86 programs.

In the end there is no way in hell the board is gonna let Ballmer give away the desktop monopoly that took Bill so many years to gain because he wants to be Apple. Yes desktops and laptops are pretty flat but even flat you are talking hundreds of millions of units, that kind of cash cow you don't just waltz away from. I have a feeling Ballmer is being given this last chance to show he can take a market like Bill did with desktops and when he shits out a failwhale that's it, the board will cut him loose and use Win 7 to shore up the company until they can fast track a Win 9 based on Win 7 out of the door. After all Win 7 is good until 2020 so even if it takes a year or two they'll still have product. Personally I can see MSFT going back to a 5 year release schedule, as this gives them time to build buzz and momentum which Win 7 just wasn't given time to do. Just as people started to warm to Win 7 the monkey was screaming about apps.

So Apple won't gain as they don't want the market, Win 8 will flop, and Win 7 will carry them through the transition to a new CEO. Frankly they won't have any choice because after Win 8 flops the stock is gonna stay dead as long as Ballmer is CEO, there just won't be any investor confidence in the man.

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[hairyfeet]

Oh there was nothing wrong with the LOOK of Vista, in fact I'm using a Vista Black theme on my Win 7 as it uses less resources than the Aero bling see through crap and I just fine it nicer. The problem with Vista was the BUGS, oh lord was that thing buggy as hell! I personally got bit by the "media slows down the network" bug which considering I love to have music playing in the background REALLY pissed me off, I also got bit by the "Vista loses network shares" bug which since I keep a nettop as a file server and download box having to reboot every time I wanted to access the shares because Vista would have a "senior moment" and lose access was irritating as hell. Neither of those bugs were present in Win 7 RTM so that alone was worth the upgrade for me.

As for VirtualPC...why? One of the biggest problems Ballmer has is NOBODY is developing for WinRT and WinPhone 7, which means nobody is developing for Metro. Hell even MS Office is gonna be a desktop and not a Metro app so odds are there really won't be a need for you to have Metro on Win 7. I suppose if you really want to VirtualBox already supports Win 8 if you have hardware VT so if you want to you can, I just don't see much of a point.

BTW did you know there is NO WAY to kill Metro, even if you use just the classic desktop (which sucks and is crippled BTW, no expanding start menu or list of most used programs for instance) that Metro is STILL RUNNING in the background 24/7? You can't stop it, its always sucking resources even if you don't use nor want it. While this might be fine on a desktop with a shitload of cores and memory on a laptop or netbook it blows giant chunks.

In the end after running Win 8 CP for nearly a month and having it in my shop for my customers to try I have to say I honestly can't find any positives about the experience and a whole lot of negatives. It really is pointless without a touchscreen (watch any of Sinofsky's talks on Win 8 and count how many times he says touchscreen) and since the vast majority, including my new netbook and desktop, don't have touchscreens it just isn't an upgrade over Win 7, in fact like Vista was a downgrade from my XP X64 I'd say Win 8 is a downgrade from Win 7. Its just not made for the desktop, anybody that uses it for a few weeks will see that.

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[Billly Gates]

Here is the catch. Billy and Balmer own 60% of the company. The board has tried to fire him twice and Balmer refuses to step down and there is nothing they can do.

Gates is too busy saving the world to care and I wonder how much stock his foundation and himself has? Gates was evil and I hated his guts when he ran MS but he was a damn good CEO. Windows was shit and he shit it out as a gold brick and monopolized the market. From what I read, Balmer was so indecisive about MS's mobile strategy that Gates make the decision for Metro. But he did not oversee it. He stated the obvious that the only reason to use a Windows mobile device was integration with Office. Balmer let the office development team make an IOS version of Office which cost them that. BIG MISTAKE. Now fortunte 500 companies do not see why they need to leave IOS for the executive phones. Wow

Hold on to your hat! The next year or two will be interesting. MS is likely to lose their crown jewels over this and as much as a cash cow PCs are, they are dwindling. As the cost goes down and consumers leave them for tablets they are less willing to pay for software as the overall cost of the unit. I think an integration of the tablet and PC is coming. What platform will they run? No one likes Windows anymore and just use it for the software.

LOL: Nobody puts it QUITE like you do...

[Anonymous Coward]

The "highlight" of your description(s) imo @ least, were as follows:

---

"i can tell you it was like tying a boat anchor to my workflow, it just doesn't have any consistency and it feels like you are getting slapped around between the desktop and metro (which you can't turn off BTW, it runs even when you are just using the desktop) so its REALLY entertaining, in a MST3K bad movie kinda way." - by hairyfeet (841228) on Friday June 01, @04:46PM (#40185633)

LMAO - thanks hairyfeet... NOW, I have the "song/theme" from Mystery Science Theater 3000 going thru my head now & probably for the rest of the evening now ( which is NOT necessarily a "bad thing" I suppose, for laughs! )

---

More seriously here though:

"But you SHOULD try it APK, after all it is free and runs in Virtualbox and frankly the whole "WTF are they high?" moments you'll get when running it make it VERY entertaining." - by hairyfeet (841228) on Friday June 01, @04:46PM (#40185633)

Man, probably... I would "give it a go", but I am worried about it "busting up" my bootsector for Windows 7 due to the UEFI constraints & NO, I have no clue on how that works bootsector-wise, so maybe you can "shed some light" on that much here for me, thanks!

It has something to do with the BIOS, this much iirc is "straight" from me, but again - that's WHY I noted my mobo above.

(I haven't tried it before, & I am NOT even sure that this "UEFI" stuff wouldn't hose it, OR, even IF my mobo supports it (ASUS P6T)).

---

"Hell you've got an i7 so its not like running a VM is even gonna make that chip sweat, so try running it for just a half an hour and see what a difference it makes" - by hairyfeet (841228) on Friday June 01, @04:46PM (#40185633)

See above - that's the "why" of WHY I am "holding off" on giving this a go actually... thanks for the advice from experience here on that account!

APK

P.S.=> By the way - sorry for NOT getting back to you here -> http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2872677&cid=40123423 & yes, I did have a GREAT holiday weekend (did my garden, 30 tomato plants) & had a good time too, hope YOU did the same!

Oh also/"by-the-by":

Our "favorite troll" has disappeared since 5/21/2012... guess "word got out" about him/her, & she RAN outta embarassment...

... apk

Re:LOL: Nobody puts it QUITE like you do...

[hairyfeet]

UEFI GPT is actually pretty simple, its a lot like the old boot sector only with a backup sector and support for large disks. But with virtual box you don't have to worry about partitioning, its treated as a file, no different than say a BD Rip. I wouldn't want to try multibooting it anyway since 1.-Its only a time limited copy and if its like Win 7 you'd have to reinstall when the time runs out, even if you buy it and 2.-Frankly after trying you won't want to buy it anyway!

But the way GPTworks is you have your wrapper for the old boot sector, that lets XP and other non UEFI aware OSes boot, then you have the GPT which is an extended partition table, then you have the error correcting code along with a pointer to the backup in case the original boot sector gets hosed for any reason. Remember how in the old days if track 0 failed you were boned? Not anymore, it'll just work off the backup.

For a nice free tool that works with UEFI and GPT I'd recommend Paragon Partition Manager Free as that's what I use. It supports pretty much any kind of drive, lets you resize existing partitions, its a good tool. I also use their Backup And Recovery Free which I have to say has saved my ass in the past. I was working with a partition when we had a brownout and the system lost power, the partition was fucked but I was able to boot off their recovery CD and restore the OS from backup on a separate drive, it couldn't have been easier to do.

But anyway just use VBox and give it a spin, It'll just treat it as a file so no need to screw with your partitions. Once you get tired of playing with it you just have VBox toss the partition and you can then uninstall VBox no problems. Personally I keep VBox around though as its great for checking out new OSes, I have been using it to play with OpenELEC which looks like it might make a good OS for a cheap HTPC. later bro and sorry about the tune, but who don't love Joel and the bots?

Um PC"'s ?

[Anonymous Coward]

How many people run tablets as there computer day to day ?

How many people run PC / keyboard / mouse as there computer day to day ?

This has got to be the biggest joke on the world to date. If everyones computer was UPGRADED to windows 8 in the world. There would be wars.

Mobile phones and tables need an OS. Desktops....The real devices you do work on need one too and it is not this joker OS.

Win 8

[mgsmith7475]

Reminds me of all the pissed off people when Unity arrived! However this should be on a much larger scale! Hehe!

Re:Win 8

[gronofer]

Yeah ... but Unity didn't turn out to be such a big deal in the end. Just add "sudo apt-get install gnome-session-fallback" to all the other cryptic commands in a typical Linux installation and customisation.

Perhaps there is some Windows equivalent to get back to an old interface, most likely done using the Microsoft unique user-friendly method of entering hex digits into the registry editor.

Re:Ok, Sherlock, your mystery is not a, uh, myster

[hairyfeet]

It won't matter because I doubt even gates can quiet them down if the other 40% are on board, hell you might even end up with a hostile attempt to take over the board. The ONLY way i can see gates pulling it back is if he agreed to step back in to day to day operations and he doesn't seem to have any desire to do that. The money being pissed down a rathole is his too and with big names like Gabe at Valve talking about setting up a Steambox Linux to compete with him I honestly think he'll have no choice but to talk Ballmer into stepping aside, maybe take some "head of R&D" bullshit job while they bring someone else in. because if the stock starts tanking because of lack of investor confidence in its CEO Gates having plenty of stock can't stop that and with each day he lets it go on he'll see his money going down the shitter as well. HP is still the #1 seller of PCs last I checked and look how bad THEIR stock tanked thanks to bad CEOs.

In the end MSFT simply can't afford another massive public and investor backlash and if it happens (which I believe it will) then nothing that Ballmer does after that will matter, the stock will still tank. unless Bill is willing to try to buy back the company I honestly think he'll be backed into a corner and have no choice. With even stodgy mags like Forbes turning on him he just doesn't have the allies to turn this around with Ballmer at the helm.

Cute!

[justthinkit]

I hear that Windows 8 will ship with a gumball machine, a flag and a pretty cool hat.

Thanks!

[charnov]

I really do thikn Win7 is nearly perfect and love abstracted storage (Libraries feature). I manage about 50 desktops at work. Laptop usage is also very good. Active Directory and application integration is huge and probably the biggest plus in the business sector.

That said, I have been watching Sogo and Samba4 for a while and they are getting close to removing that hole in the linux infrastructure.

Re:Thanks!

[mcgrew]

It's certainly far better than any OS MS made before, but it's not even close to KDE IMO. Personally, I hate the "Libraries feature" although I can see how someone administering a lot of clueless users would like it. I especially dislike it with "display hidden files" turned on.

It's faulty in that you can't network win 7 computers unless at least one of them is W7 pro (or Linux). Having to reboot to update is a horrible flaw, unless of course it's the kernel that's being updated. Not having the facility to have it reboot into the same state it was in when you shut it off is a huge flaw as well. They seem to have gone backwards with the control panel, XP's layout was reasonable easy to use, W7's is hard to navigate. They also went backwards with the file manager. If I'm looking at a directory of oggs or mp3s it will no longer let me sort by date or file type (especially annoying when you have WAVs and MP3s with the same name and you want to move the WAVs to a different directory). And when you add a new directory, the one you're adding it to slides all the way to the bottom, which is maddening when you have a directory with over a hundred subdirectories. Search also wen backwards, I can no longer search for a phrase from within a fil as before, and search has gotten rid of its other useful features -- desktop search in W7 is completely useless. Its only advantafe over KSE is it's prettier, but I really don't care how pretty my tools are.

Better than the ones before, but far from perfect and inferior to Linux+KDE in almost every way.