Five EU Countries Taken To Court For Failing To Implement Cookie Law

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Five EU Countries Taken To Court For Failing To Implement Cookie Law

Posted by samzenpus on Thursday May 31, 2012 @09:28PM from the time-out dept.

concertina226 writes "The European Commission announced on Thursday that it has asked the European Court of Justice to impose fines on Belgium, the Netherlands, Poland, Portugal and Slovenia for not transposing binding telecoms rules into their national laws. The official deadline for doing so was 25 May last year. These telecoms rules are aimed at protecting users' privacy online. They also require companies to notify users about any data breach without undue delay and to allow customers to switch fixed or mobile phone operators without changing their phone number, within one working day. But the main sticking point in the telecoms package appears to be the requirement for Web companies to obtain 'explicit consent' from Internet users before storing cookies."

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Not the Netherlands by pahles · 2012-05-31 21:42 · Score: 3, Informative

The Netherlands won't get fined because they ensured Neelie Kroes of the EC they will transpose the rules: http://www.nu.nl/internet/2823753/nederland-ontloopt-nipt-europese-telecomboete.html (in Dutch).

--
Sig?
leave the EU by Anonymous Coward · 2012-05-31 21:46 · Score: 3, Insightful

The correct solution is to leave that horribly mutated experiment.
1) These rules are pointless - session cookies per se are of no consequence, but retention of vast amounts of data by Google & co. is;
2) Retention of data for government purposes is an especial threat, yet the EU promotes this rather than restricting it.
The EU has failed. It has turned into a method for economic domination by Germany and, to a lesser extent, France. Iceland rightly outright avoided the effects of financial subjugation, Greece should take the opportunity to do so right now, and so over the years should any other nation which values its sovereignty.
1. Re:leave the EU by Hognoxious · 2012-05-31 22:06 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Greece borrows a fuckton of money, pisses it up the wall and then throws a massive sulk when asked to pay it back. Meanwhile Germany makes stuff that people want to buy.
  Just who's being subjugated here?
  
  --
  Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
2. Re:leave the EU by Kergan · 2012-05-31 22:17 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  Err...
  1. Session cookies are key in allowing Google to track and store more data than it should.
  2. In France at least, the EC expressed concerns about the French government storing too much, not too little. So, not sure where you get the idea of the EU promoting police states.
  3. Historically, the EU has always progressed in times of crisis. The US got federalism more or less right two centuries ago. We'll get it more or less right soon enough.
  4. Unless the Euro breaks up (which I think is unlikely), rebalancing will likely occur through fiscal union, pan-EU projects (à la Ariane or Airbus), and increased (some already exist) subsidies from more competitive regions to less competitive ones.
  5. Actually, Iceland recently made news because it was at the EU's door, almost begging to enter, and rather eager to adopt the Euro. The part they got right, which neither you nor we did, is to lock up their bankers in jail after clawing their wages back. (And I'm confident we'll get it right too, eventually.)
3. Re:leave the EU by LordLucless · 2012-05-31 22:22 · Score: 1
  
  1. Session cookies are key in allowing Google to track and store more data than it should.
  Err, no, that would be persistent cookies. Session cookies are deleted whenever the browser session ends, so it makes tracking rather pointless. The cookies Google (and every other company) uses to track are set to expire years in the future.
  
  --
  Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
4. Re:leave the EU by Thanshin · 2012-05-31 22:26 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  Greece borrows a fuckton of money, pisses it up the wall and then throws a massive sulk when asked to pay it back.
  I think the sulk is not even for having to pay it back but for being required to follow a number of rules that might make them stop pissing more fucktons of money up the wall.
5. Re:leave the EU by CaptnMArk · 2012-05-31 22:35 · Score: 1
  
  This is not true anymore because firefox has stopped crashing daily long ago (I used to have script to delete
  cookies not on the whitelist at startup, but it's mostly pointless now because firefox has survived for weeks).
6. Re:leave the EU by nosh · 2012-05-31 22:43 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  1. Session cookies are key in allowing Google to track and store more data than it should.
  Err, no, that would be persistent cookies. Session cookies are deleted whenever the browser session ends, so it makes tracking rather pointless. The cookies Google (and every other company) uses to track are set to expire years in the future.
  So you always open your browser for only one site and close it afterwards? And never look at two sites at the same time?
  If you like it or not, the problem with cookies is something that can only be solved by law.
  There are some sites only working with cookies (mostly for stupid reasons), so you cannot disable cookies globally.
  Almost any site with advertising gives you a tracking cookie, per advertisement, so no browser will ask people to accept cookies by default as people will be utterly confused. And because any browser accepts them by default, sites can just add tracking cookies without many people complaining. So no browser can switch to "ask-before-request" as too many sites use them....
  So you either have to accept that any site will track what other sites you visit and give the advertisers your profile
  (and once one of thoe sites also has your login, connect that profile to your identify), or you have to use regulation.
  One might differ whether people have a right on privacy or websites have a right to get revenues. But if one considers a right for privacy, regulation is the only solution in this case.
7. Re:leave the EU by Iskender · 2012-05-31 22:49 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Greece borrows a fuckton of money, pisses it up the wall and then throws a massive sulk when asked to pay it back. Meanwhile Germany makes stuff that people want to buy.
  The past Greek governments have done a terrible job and now the country suffers for it - this is undoubtedly true. It is also true that the German economy has been much better.
  However, Germany has benefited enormously from sharing a currency with them. Being one of the world's largest exporters, they benefit from a relatively weak currency. If they had their own currency now they would be like Switzerland - a safe haven in the crisis, with a very strong currency and problems with exports.
  But currently the problems in the other countries devalue the euro, meaning Germany gets to export at great prices. Meanwhile the crisis-hit euro countries have an over-valued currency, and they can't do anything about it. Basically, Germany gets a huge boost for free and pretends it's all due to working hard.
  Germany is resisting money-printing and collective eurobonds which would give the crisis-hit countries an opportunity to grow again. They want the others to sort their own things out - but if the others run out of options and crash, Germany might end up wishing they had done something.
  FWIW I'm in one of the rich and balanced euro countries. Doesn't matter, I still think we need something else than "tough love" to solve this.
8. Re:leave the EU by Rakshasa-sensei · 2012-05-31 22:52 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  What a load of bullcrap.
  
  Do you know how easy it was for me to start up a company in Norway? Required only internet access and a couple of days, and that was 8 years ago.
  
  In greece, you'd be lucky with 10 months and lots of bribes. E.g. check out this article. And there's plenty of renowned international studies into corruption, ease of business, etc, and the Northern European countries top all those.
  
  There's no grand conspiracy, no effort at keeping the south down through infrastructure loans or anything. The countries that are doing excellent through this crisis, e.g. the Northern European countries, do so for entirely obvious reasons.
  
  It might have been slightly naive of us to think that Greece would have taken the out-stretched hand and used it to reform into a prosperous European social-democratic country, not try to steal our watch and rings to waste on wine and dance.
9. Re:leave the EU by Intrepid+imaginaut · 2012-05-31 22:55 · Score: 2
  
  The US got federalism more or less right two centuries ago. We'll get it more or less right soon enough.
  I think quite a lot of European citizens might well disagree with you here. This really isn't the USA.
10. Re:leave the EU by Anonymous Coward · 2012-05-31 23:07 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  I agree 100%. It's worth adding that the bailouts that greece/ireland etc have recieved are being used to pay back (largely) french and german banks and bondholders. The bailout will then be repaid by greek/irish taxpayers.
  Be in no illusion. This is not a bailout of the Greeks, but of rich German bondholders. This is why the Greeks are protesting.
11. Re:leave the EU by Viol8 · 2012-05-31 23:15 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  The greeks didn't protest when all the money was loaned to them in the first place so they could go on a massive public sector spending binge and buy the fast cars and beachfront villas. Now its somehow the fault of the organisations who loaned it that the greedy tax dodging greeks are in this mess because they didn't understand Economics 101?? On yer bike pal.
12. Re:leave the EU by SwedishPenguin · 2012-05-31 23:16 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  Why is this modded troll? You'd have to be blind solely blame Greece in this debacle and it's quite obvious who has benefited from the Greek crisis.
13. Re:leave the EU by SwedishPenguin · 2012-05-31 23:25 · Score: 2
  
  Thank you for a balanced comment, I'm getting tired of all these idiots shouting about how irresponsible and "lazy" Greeks are. All this crisis has done is convince me even more how bad of an idea the Euro was to begin with. If it wasn't for campaigning by the only real opposition (i.e. the Left Party and the Greens, though nowadays that the Greens have gone more "center" and abandoned almost all forms of EU criticism, only the Left Party), we would be members of the damn thing as well. I really wish the Greeks luck, the best thing for them to do is probably to leave the Euro, it will be painful but furthering these draconian cuts leading to a negative spiral is a road to complete economic ruin.
14. Re:leave the EU by SwedishPenguin · 2012-05-31 23:39 · Score: 1
  
  3. Historically, the EU has always progressed in times of crisis. The US got federalism more or less right two centuries ago. We'll get it more or less right soon enough.
  But most Europeans don't want any kind of federalism. Should the will of the people just be ignored?
15. Re:leave the EU by Anonymous Coward · 2012-05-31 23:50 · Score: 1
  
  who has benefited from the Greek crisis
  That would be the US, who has its very own binge borrowing problem that nobody's looking at anymore because a tiny European country is everything anybody talks about anymore.
16. Re:leave the EU by Anonymous Coward · 2012-05-31 23:54 · Score: 1
  
  Why is this modded troll? You'd have to be blind solely blame Greece in this debacle and it's quite obvious who has benefited from the Greek crisis.
  Goldman-Sachs? The US company who made billions helping Greece hide their true financial status so they'd be allowed to join the euro and billions more betting against Greece because they knew the real numbers?
17. Re:leave the EU by DNS-and-BIND · 2012-06-01 00:59 · Score: 2
  
  Wow, a Norwegian Republican Wapanese...never thought I'd see one of those.
  
  --
  Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
18. Re:leave the EU by Rakshasa-sensei · 2012-06-01 01:11 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  - My ex's family were from Greece. Business there was as business in any Southern European country: stronger sense of family and community, so local businesses which were perceived as ethical would thrive, whereas people in it for a quick buck would be viewed with suspicion and would have regulations more stringently applied. Health&Safety in Britain is much more intrusive than there.
  Wow, I didn't expect it but (not kidding) you've seriously opened my eyes.
  Ignoring for the moment the rather unfortunate comparison you did to China (do you even realize the argument you made there???), when considering the situation in southern europe I at least _assumed_ that the population in general was conscious of the reasons why they were uncompetitive and just acted out of self-interest.
  That the family and community business thing you described above is seen as a good thing makes clear that they got no fucking clue. I can hardly think of a way to structure a business environment that would lead to more corruption than that. When your neighbor or cousine's business is threatened by a more competitive smartass from out-of-town, the 'family and community' oriented society would see it as normal to put in any and all obstacles possible.
  Fuck that, I guess Greece really is destined to leave the Euro. (And having left a sour taste in the mouth of leaders up north from all those protests and threats to the Euro stability in order to 'renegotiate', etc, reconstruction 'aid' won't be very forthcoming)
19. Re:leave the EU by Viol8 · 2012-06-01 01:26 · Score: 2
  
  "Loans are a risk to the lender as much as the borrower."
  Are you in a company pension scheme? Do you realise that the in most cases the people in it have NO CHOICE about where their money is invested?
  So yourself a favour and dump the left wing student vitriol and grow up.
20. Re:leave the EU by drinkypoo · 2012-06-01 01:41 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  Why not draw a parallel to the current American housing crisis? Homeowners should have known better; banks knew they didn't know better, and took advantage of them. The government helped. Everyone is wrong except for those who didn't involve themselves.
  
  --
  "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
21. Re:leave the EU by cpu6502 · 2012-06-01 01:58 · Score: 1
  
  Sorry to break-up your 5 minutes hate, but this is how unions work. The rich states subsidize the poor states. In the U.S. that means the rich east/west coasts subsidize the poorer middle, and when a state like California needs a bailout the private central bank prints wads of dollars to help them out.
  In the EU it means the center subsidizes the southeast periphery, and when a state like Greece needs a bailout the ECB prints wads of euros to help them out.
  Welcome Europeans. You're now just like Americans - part of one gigantic whole rather than individual states.
  
  --
  My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
22. Re:leave the EU by mcgrew · 2012-06-01 02:04 · Score: 1
  
  I'd like to see the browser developers make this a moot point. Why not, when a site drops a cookie, have a dialog box come up saying
  this site is attempting to leave a cookie.
  o refuse this site always
  o refuse this site one time only
  o accept this time only
  o accept this site always
  X don't ask me again
  
  --
  Free Martian Whores!
23. Re:leave the EU by jez9999 · 2012-06-01 02:10 · Score: 1
  
  If you like it or not, the problem with cookies is something that can only be solved by law.
  IIF you consider it a big enough problem to need legal recourse.
  Almost any site with advertising gives you a tracking cookie, per advertisement, so no browser will ask people to accept cookies by default as people will be utterly confused. And because any browser accepts them by default, sites can just add tracking cookies without many people complaining. So no browser can switch to "ask-before-request" as too many sites use them....
  I don't agree. Ask-before-request could work fine, and if people got tired of it they could select to "always accept cookies"; in practice, if websites everywhere start asking permission to store cookies, people are going to be getting this kind of constant prompting anyway. Whatsmore, browsers could make the problem much easier by grouping together domains/IPs associated with advertising (and maybe a few other categories like online shopping, etc.), and provide a dialog to the user asking whether they wanted to accept "advertising cookies" or "online shopping cookies" or whatever. This wouldn't require an individual per-IP/domain approval/rejection.
  But if one considers a right for privacy, regulation is the only solution in this case.
  No, not really. By using a browser that automatically accepts cookies, you are implicitly giving away your privacy not to be tracked by cookies. Even if regulation is a good idea, I don't see why they regulated the WEBSITES; they should have regulated the BROWSERS and require that they provide a better interface for cookie management. That way you're dealing with a handful of organizations that have to comply with a law, and not millions of websites. Regulating the websites is fucking insane and it won't be enforcable.
  
  --
  == Jez ==
  Do you miss Firefox? Try Pale Moon.
24. Re:leave the EU by Wildclaw · 2012-06-01 02:22 · Score: 1
  
  Meanwhile Germany makes stuff that people want to buy.
  Here states like Greece, Italy and Spain have been acting all nice and buying stuff so German people can get work. And then the Germans turn around and says, fuck you, we aren't going to buy anything in return. Instead we are going to try to rent seek you until you collapse.
  The exact same thing happened in the US, except you can replace Germany with the Top 1%.
  You can't blame those who lent and spent, as the production obviously managed to keep up in those years (and if there had been competition for that production, those with stronger surpluses would have had it easier to acquire their shares). And you can't blame those who lent and spent for stopping either. No, the only ones you can blame are those who saved and saved, and yet still aren't spending now when no one else can. They are the ones who violated the implicit contract of economy and broke the money circulation.
25. Re:leave the EU by nedlohs · 2012-06-01 02:26 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  local businesses which were perceived as ethical would thrive, whereas people in it for a quick buck would be viewed with suspicion and would have regulations more stringently applied
  Which is what we call corruption. Applying the rules differently to those not in the club so that they are relatively disadvantaged. Until they join the club anyway.
26. Re:leave the EU by Rakshasa-sensei · 2012-06-01 02:28 · Score: 2
  
  Well, as I'm currently living in Japan I've seen / studied pretty much the three types of societies that have produced highly competitive industrialized societies. The US (through osmosis of politics, literature and lol), Northern Europe and Japan.
  
  And what many in the US, especially republicans, seem to miss is that social safety net, universal health care, support for parents with young children, etc, are competitive advantages. What social-capitalistic societies have thought us is that rather than chase an ideology, you should implement reasonable social policies and encourage capitalism that is reined in by sensible regulations.
  
  As a manager of an IKEA manufacturing plant (that out-competed local businesses) in the US said on the Colbert Report; we swedes took the lessons of US capitalism and got better than you at it.
27. Re:leave the EU by Rakshasa-sensei · 2012-06-01 02:38 · Score: 1
  
  I saw a rather interesting survey in The Economist (subscribe to their podcast, they're fucking awesome even if you're just a computer geek like me), the survey covered what European country people thought was least corrupt and who worked the hardest.
  
  The survey showed Germany clearly leading on being least corrupt, and leading on working the hardest... Except for the Greek who said they worked the hardest.
  
  True according to reported work hours, yet is someone really 'working' if they're sleeping or otherwise padding?
28. Re:leave the EU by Viol8 · 2012-06-01 02:49 · Score: 1
  
  "So the people who voluntarily accept employment somewhere and then (usually) voluntarily accept the company pension scheme have NO CHOICE about where (a small part!) of their income is invested."
  Oh right , so its their fault is it because they took a job to earn money and need a pension when they retire?
  "But every citizen of Greece was apparently aware of "
  A majority of the citizens of greeks didn't pay all or any of their taxes so spare me the sob story.
  "You're an idiot."
  Sorry, I think you must be looking in the mirror.
  "Or perhaps what you don't want to say is"
  I think what you need to say is you're a silly little kid without a clue of how the world really works. Plus you obviously don't have a job or you wouldn't be so dismissive of pension schemes.
  I think your playtimes over sonny.
29. Re:leave the EU by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-01 03:02 · Score: 1
  
  Only solved by law? ..... Or, you know, some decent software and some effort on the user's part. I deny all cookies by default, and I've got an extension that lets me grant permanent or temporary permissions for cookies. That's a setting I need deal with only once (if permanently whitelisted) or once per session (if temporarily). Certainly not the mess that the default cookie handler in all browsers creates. That's why I haven't left Firefox yet.
  With temporary permissions, close the browser and both the permission and the cookies go away. I would like to have it kill the permission when I close the page, but I have to do that myself thus far.
  But you know what? I didn't have to wait for a law. And, as it turns out, quite a lot of sites are suitably navigable without any cookies.
30. Re:leave the EU by nedlohs · 2012-06-01 03:16 · Score: 1
  
  Applying the rules equally to all is not being paranoid, or anti-social, or individualist.
  What is fine in friendships is not fine in the legal and beauracratic realms. A judge allowing a friend to borrow his car when he wouldn't do so to a stranger is fine. The same judge giving a lesser penalty to a friend than he would a stranger in court is not fine. The mayor having his friend over for dinner when he wouldn't a stranger is fine. The mayor granting zoning changes to a friend that he wouldn't a stranger is not fine.
  And I don't have a neoconservative definition of corruption - well I guess I don't really know what that would be in the first place. "corruption" = "prohibits fraud and plundering" certainly isn't the case though.
31. Re:leave the EU by Iskender · 2012-06-01 04:17 · Score: 1
  
  The EU can't keep pouring money into a leaky barrel. Eurobonds would have to go hand in hand with relieving a country of its sovereign control if it wants federal money.
  I dont really care about the specific approach. The point is someone should show some leadership in the EU and do something, anything else than pushing austerity.
  
  And don't even think about threatening Germany with the notion that exports will crash if export markets will leave the Eurozone or the EU, making Germany's currency more valuable and exports more expensive.
  
  It's not a threat, since after all it's not like I have the power to make it happen. Currently austerity seems to be on this path:
  1. Greek finances are ever more strained and closer to collapse
  2. Confidence in Spain and Italy weakens as a result (60+ billion capital flight from Spain in March reported today)
  If Spain falls further it will affect confidence in Italy and either country will strain France which is a big lender. If France, Italy and Spain get into serious economic trouble Germany will take a hit that will dwarf any amount of money the Greek elite could waste. It's not a threat, but rather a serious risk of the dominoes falling.
32. Re:leave the EU by shutdown+-p+now · 2012-06-01 04:17 · Score: 1
  
  I think it's important to separate two things here. First of all, yes, economically, austerity programs being pushed onto Greece are going to ruin their economy, and they're right in not accepting them. However, there's also no doubt that they are in their current position because of irresponsible governance and economic policies of their own, and in a democratic country the responsibility for that lies with the electorate as well. So when Greece insists that they have been wronged here somehow, and defy austerity demands on the grounds than they did nothing wrong, it is guaranteed to generate resentment among countries who were paying for the party the Greeks were having - and rightly so.
33. Re:leave the EU by nedlohs · 2012-06-01 04:24 · Score: 1
  
  Sure you can keep moving the goal posts. Makes it pretty pointless though.
  Creating an environment or "fair" competition is one way a nation can look after itself, so you can't just declare them opposites.
  But I understand, you want the "you know me and can trust me" environment that punishes those not in the club even though human nature means it will enivitably become "I will give you $x if you can persuade your organisation to do y for me".
  And yes countries which try to be run by laws that apply fairly also have human nature driving them towards corruption too - they just have a fighting chance to avoid it a little longer.
34. Re:leave the EU by Man+On+Pink+Corner · 2012-06-01 06:43 · Score: 1
  
  Welcome Europeans. You're now just like Americans - part of one gigantic whole rather than individual states.
  Well, not just like Americans. Our founders had the sense not to attempt to create a fiscal union without an accompanying political one.
35. Re:leave the EU by Viol8 · 2012-06-01 07:08 · Score: 1
  
  "we should protect these schemes;"
  Yes we should unless you want destritue pensioners. It might not matter to a kid like you but it does matter to the people who spent their whole lives paying into them.
  "Go troll elsewhere, you laughable failure."
  Hmm , ok son, whatever you say. Arguing with a kid is like trying to arge with a monkey - all noise and posturing and hot air but no substance.
  When you eventually leave the gilded cage of school/uni and go out into the real world, get a job and sort out a pension scheme and have to take responsibility for your own life rather than have mum and dad as a fallback option, then perhaps you might look back on some of your comments and laugh. But I won't hold my breath.
36. Re:leave the EU by zrq · 2012-06-01 07:31 · Score: 1
  
  The Ghostery plugin http://www.ghostery.com/ does that, and more.
37. Re:leave the EU by vsync64 · 2012-06-01 08:16 · Score: 1
  
  This used to be the default setting in many browsers. It changed because people complained it asked them annoying questions, and site authors complained about users that had the temerity to refuse cookies.
  I was going to give you a screenshot of exactly that preferences dialog in Firefox to smugly help you do that, but it looks like the simplification Nazis ripped that out too. It used to look like this.
  You can still configure it in, of all places, the "history" settings. Once you do so, it acts exactly as you want.
  
  --
  TO BUY A NEW CAR WOULD MAKE YOU SEXUALLY ATTRACTIVE.
38. Re:leave the EU by vsync64 · 2012-06-01 08:20 · Score: 1
  
  Excuse me, the thumbnails in my screenshots collection deceived me. Firefox cookie approval dialog.
  
  --
  TO BUY A NEW CAR WOULD MAKE YOU SEXUALLY ATTRACTIVE.
39. Re:leave the EU by LordLucless · 2012-06-01 13:02 · Score: 1
  
  So you always open your browser for only one site and close it afterwards? And never look at two sites at the same time?
  No, but I close my browser regularly enough that using session cookies for tracking is bloody stupid. Which is why nobody does it. The rest of your post is just more ranting about cookies, without addressing the distinction between session cookies and persistent ones. This EU law doesn't appear to distinguish between the two either, and is therefore, just as stupid as you.
  
  --
  Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
40. Re:leave the EU by manu0601 · 2012-06-01 14:32 · Score: 1
  
  Greece borrows a fuckton of money, pisses it up the wall and then throws a massive sulk when asked to pay it back.
  Did you really expect Greece to have the capacity to pay back with interests at 18%? UE law creates an economic battlefield, where the strong (Germany) prevail, and the weaks sink. Greece failure is not a bug, it is a feature.
  The interesting point is that Germany is strong because it sells to the weaks, therefore its own future may not be that bright once weak countries will not be able to afford buying german stuff anymore.
41. Re:leave the EU by SwedishPenguin · 2012-06-03 21:45 · Score: 1
  
  Then you can have your damn federal union with little in the way of transparency or democracy to yourselfs and the rest of us can just up and leave. The "yes" in Ireland is by no means pragmatic or resounding, it's the result of fear-mongering media and politicians.
42. Re:leave the EU by lordholm · 2012-06-03 21:56 · Score: 1
  
  Many don't want to talk about the F-word, but on specific issues people (even in Scandinavia) are very much federalists. For example, if you ask whether they want the EP to have more power on the behalf of the council, then most people will say YES, despite this is very much the definition of federalism.
  
  --
  "Civis Europaeus sum!"
43. Re:leave the EU by SwedishPenguin · 2012-06-03 22:14 · Score: 1
  
  Even I would answer yes to that question, if the EU is supposed to have all the powers it already does have, then it better be handled by an institution where the people at least has a marginal say in what goes on, though of course the only people who have real influence are the capitalists running the show. Ask people whether the EU should have all the powers it currently has, and I'm guessing you'll get a completely different answer. I don't know of anyone but neoliberals in Sweden who actually wants the EU to have the power to regulate what unions can and can't do to prevent EU workers from being treated and paid like slave labour for instance, but this is the reality of the situation.
44. Re:leave the EU by lordholm · 2012-06-03 22:52 · Score: 1
  
  You are gravely mistaken about the neoliberals in Sweden, most neoliberals in Sweden believe that the EU is a socialist experiment, while the socialists believe the EU is a neoliberal capitalist experiment. This is obviously contradictory, but stems from the fact that the EU in some cases make social policy that does not suite the neoliberals and in some cases make economic policy that the socialist don't like.
  
  --
  "Civis Europaeus sum!"
Not all cookies are targeted! (FUD ALERT) by Anonymous Coward · 2012-05-31 22:36 · Score: 5, Informative

This cookie law does not require consent for all cookies. Unfortunately, the media, including Slashdot continues to carry this myth. This is the spin that the advertising industry is (successfully) putting on this issue...
I requires consent for cookies that are not "strictly necessary for a service explicitly requested by the user". So session cookies are safe for example.
Consent is mainly required for TRACKING cookie.
1. Re:Not all cookies are targeted! (FUD ALERT) by shippers · 2012-06-01 02:44 · Score: 1
  
  It's interesting that the so called "cookie law" makes no reference to cookies at all in its original directive. Regulation 6 of the Privacy and Electronic Communications Directive talks about using "an electronic communications network to store information, or to gain access to information stored". Ok, so that sounds a lot like cookies, but it would also cover, say, storing snippets of information through plug-ins like Silverlight or Flash.
  It then goes on to list the exceptions, which again sound like descriptions of cookies used to store contents of baskets or remembering logins, but worded in a way as to avoid any specific technology.
  In 2011 it was amended, mostly to clarify things so that people would have to opt-in to tracking rather than opt-out, but still the word "cookie" isn't used.
2. Re:Not all cookies are targeted! (FUD ALERT) by jimicus · 2012-06-01 03:23 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Very few technology laws explicitly mention specific technologies - normally they reference what the technology is trying to achieve. Otherwise laws would be obsolete within a few months as workarounds are developed.
Re:As 'Dutchie' I think its uberfunny ! by mrbester · 2012-05-31 22:53 · Score: 1

If France was one of the countries that hadn't implemented a law this case wouldn't have seen the light of day...

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IANAL: explicit consent not part of EU directive by rfc822 · 2012-05-31 22:55 · Score: 2

IANAL from Austria.
Afaik explicit consent is not explicitly demanded by the EU. UK opted in to require this in their law. IANAL, currently in Austria it says that the user decision already happens through the browser settings. If the browser accepts cookies, so does the user and the government sees the problem solved.
Re:IANAL: explicit consent not part of EU directiv by Chrisq · 2012-05-31 22:57 · Score: 1

IANAL from Austria.
Afaik explicit consent is not explicitly demanded by the EU. UK opted in to require this in their law. IANAL, currently in Austria it says that the user decision already happens through the browser settings. If the browser accepts cookies, so does the user and the government sees the problem solved.
Such a logical decision will never be accepted by the EU!
So what are you saying exactly? by Viol8 · 2012-05-31 23:09 · Score: 3, Insightful

"But currently the problems in the other countries devalue the euro, meaning Germany gets to export at great prices."
Which means that greece could also export at great prices if they actually bothered to produce anything that anyone wanted.
"Basically, Germany gets a huge boost for free and pretends it's all due to working hard"
Rubbish - it is due to working hard. Meanwhile the greeks don't bother to pay their taxes then whine abd bitch like little children when finally it all goes t1ts up.
No sympathy. The greeks made their bed , well its time to lie down.
1. Re:So what are you saying exactly? by Ogi_UnixNut · 2012-06-01 00:09 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  "But currently the problems in the other countries devalue the euro, meaning Germany gets to export at great prices."
  Which means that greece could also export at great prices if they actually bothered to produce anything that anyone wanted.
  Easier said then done, there is a lot of marketing behind Germany, along with a lot of positive stereotypes about their engineering quality, etc....
  When people think Germany, the think high quality engineering, studious and stable country, well educated workforce, beer and sausages.
  When people think Greece, they think ancient ruins, philosophy, beaches, hot sun, sea, holidays, parties and natural beauty.
  As such when people have a choice between a Greek engineered product, and a German one for the same price, an overwhelming majority would go for the German good, even if the Greek one is just as good (or even better).
  The Germans have reputation, which they built up before the EU due to being a phenomenal European power. They have had this reputation for hundreds of years. You can' t just create that for another country.
  I've known Greek engineers, I've known them produce stuff that was as good or better than their German counterparts. However nobody wanted to buy it at German prices. In the olden days it was ok, as the drachma was a weaker currency, so their goods were cheaper and they would get purchases from budget conscious buyers, who'd end up surprised by the quality.
  However once they joined the Euro, their costs increased to the same level as Germany's, and so they had to raise their prices to remain profitable. This made them about as expensive as the German goods, and their sales dried up. They were too expensive for the budget buyers (who buy from east-europe/China now) while those who bought and paid German prices bought them for their reputation, and would not buy the Greek product.
  As a result, they went bankrupt, and one of them ended up moving to Germany, where he now makes Germany money via his taxes. A net loss for Greece and a net gain for Germany, which is an inbalance that just grows with time.
  
  "Basically, Germany gets a huge boost for free and pretends it's all due to working hard"
  Rubbish - it is due to working hard. Meanwhile the greeks don't bother to pay their taxes then whine abd bitch like little children when finally it all goes t1ts up.
  No sympathy. The greeks made their bed , well its time to lie down.
  Reading this, I can't help feeling that I've just been trolled, and perhaps I have (in which case congratulations on Trolling me). However I will complete this anyway, as I've written most of it as is, and adding information to a debate is always a good idea.
  Yes, Greece has a problem with overbearing bureaucracy, and yes they have an issue with tax collection and corruption. However that does not negate what the grandparent poster said. He was spot on.
  If Germany was not in the Euro, it's DMark would be so strong, that their goods would be uncompetitive with the the rest of the world. They would also not have a captive market (in the case of the rest of the eurozone countries) which can guarantee some exports no matter what.
  Trust me, if the eurozone wasn't working out for Germany they would leave. They are not staying the out of the goodness of their hearts, or due to some old war guilt. The fact is that the German government knows what the grand parent posted, they know that they are getting a huge boost for free, they know that the eurozone is helping them immensely.
  The problem is that the status quo cannot continue. Germany has sucked up all the production out of the rest of the eurozone (barring Italy and northern countries) and countries are collapsing. So at this point either the EU integrates further, which involves some redistribution of wealth from Germany, by whichever mechanism is chosen (euro inflation, bailouts, etc...), or it starts falling apart (perhaps the development of a "Core" EU of stronger economies, with peripheries that can use a weaker currency).
2. Re:So what are you saying exactly? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-01 00:45 · Score: 1
  
  Germany has "lost" quite a lot of manufacturing jobs to countries with cheaper labor markets, for example in the eastern parts of the EU. Greece could have some of those jobs too, if they made an effort. The cost of products made in Greece doesn't magically go up just because Greece joined the Eurozone. They could still sell their products for less to stay competitive and build a reputation. Other EU countries do.
  Germany will not finance slacking countries more than it already does. Being in the EU doesn't mean getting a place at Germany's teats. It means getting access to opportunities that are afforded by a big and stable market. Germany profits from a big market, but so do other countries. This is not a zero sum game where Germany wins when everybody else loses. The EU is an implementation of the concept that the tide raises everybody's boat.
  If the EU should end (it won't), then Germany could just as easily devalue the DM by printing more. Germany would get two benefits: Imports and infrastructure paid with fresh money, and competitive exports at the same time. Germany doesn't need the EU, but it's better off with the EU than without, and so are most other European countries. Don't mistake Germany's attempts to keep Greece in the EU for a sign of weakness.
3. Re:So what are you saying exactly? by Inda · 2012-06-01 01:09 · Score: 1
  
  Hard work my arse.
  
  I work for a German company from the UK. They employ two people to do the job of one person here. Their 'efficiency champions' reputation is complete bollocks. Their engineering performances are just as crap; if it's not written down in a manual, specification or procedure, they panic. They have no idea about 'getting the job done'; their flexibility is invisible.
  
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4. Re:So what are you saying exactly? by Viol8 · 2012-06-01 01:21 · Score: 1
  
  "Also, Viol8 is a troll. I recall a funny extended fight with it one afternoon a few years ago, until eventually it came out and admitted it.)"
  Care to post a link?
  I was not trolling - I have no sympathy for the greeks. They caused their own downfall - no one forced them to join the euro after cooking the books and no one forced them to tax dodge on an epic scale.
5. Re:So what are you saying exactly? by Hatta · 2012-06-01 01:46 · Score: 1
  
  No sympathy. The greeks made their bed , well its time to lie down.
  No, the Greek elite made the bed, with the help of Goldman Sachs to keep it all secret. Make the elite pay, leave the Greek people alone.
  
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6. Re:So what are you saying exactly? by Intrepid+imaginaut · 2012-06-01 02:08 · Score: 1
  
  Sorry, that doesn't wash. Japan used to have a reputation for cheap and crappy products, now they are world leaders in high quality and engineering. Its not that hard to change a brand, just make better stuff.
7. Re:So what are you saying exactly? by cpu6502 · 2012-06-01 02:56 · Score: 1
  
  -1 Troll.
  Nooooo... I was sharing a fact I heard stated on the news several times. The German government has a low unemployment rate because it has a policy of cutting hours, rather than laying off.
  
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8. Re:So what are you saying exactly? by dunkelfalke · 2012-06-01 03:34 · Score: 2
  
  It is not a fact, it is bullshit. There is no such government mandate and most people in Germany do work 40-hour-weeks.
  The management of some car manufacturers agreed with the works council that instead of laying off they would cut hours when the factory utilisation is seriously under capacity, but that's about it. It is neither a government mandate nor it is widespread.
  
  --
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9. Re:So what are you saying exactly? by Shazback · 2012-06-01 04:11 · Score: 2
  
  Easier said then done, there is a lot of marketing behind Germany, along with a lot of positive stereotypes about their engineering quality, etc.... When people think Germany, the think high quality engineering, studious and stable country, well educated workforce, beer and sausages. When people think Greece, they think ancient ruins, philosophy, beaches, hot sun, sea, holidays, parties and natural beauty.
  Perhaps differenciation is to be looked into then? Finland didn't have the reputation of being consumer-friendly before Nokia burst onto the scene. It had a few industrial machinery companies that had a good business-to-business relationship, but the main players in Finland were heavy industry and natural resource companies. Was Sweden famous for simple design, efficient management and furniture before IKEA became big in the 70s? Was Spain considered an important fashion destination before ZARA spread like wildfire in the 90s? Countries aren't created with a God-given reputation and a set of stereotypes that are set in stone. Countries shape their own reputation and their own stereotypes. Japan's change from "cheap knock-off and unreliable electronics" to "precision electronics and fancy design" happened in barely over 20 years, and companies like Sony, Nintendo, Fujitsu, Toshiba, Canon, Honda, Toyota as well as artists like Haruki and Takashi Murakami, Kusama...
  
  Sure, Germany has a reputation for certain goods : cars, chemicals, pharmaceuticals, industrial goods. But that still leaves loads of areas for other countries to gain the upper hand. France has a reputation for more fashionable goods, but they also have big car companies, aerospace and defence companies, as well as natural resources, food and beauty products companies that are huge. Sure, France and Germany are "big" countries with populations that are several times that of Greece, and longer-established companies in most sectors. But the Netherlands managed to get to the top of some markets : Unilever, Philips, ASML, TomTom, Akzo Nobel, TNT Express... Why couldn't Greece have prospered in a similar manner? What was stopping these excellent Greek engineers, industrialists, marketers, etc. from founding companies that would compete in new, different, niche markets and then grow big? Sure, Greece's auto industry might not have been able to hold up to the German auto industry. But what about IT? What about architecture and construction companies? Why not become leaders in geothermal and solar energy? What about holiday resort construction and management?... The list goes on and on. As you say yourself, Greece had some advantages Germany didn't : history of engineering discoveries and applications going back to before the Roman Empire, key artistic and philosophical theories, climate and history particularly suited to tourism, a famous and healty cuisine, a trade position on the cusp of three continents just accross form the Suez Canal... How come the only things that came out of these advantages were a huge (but barely taxed) shipping industry and a strong tourist industry?
  
  If Germany was not in the Euro, it's DMark would be so strong, that their goods would be uncompetitive with the the rest of the world. They would also not have a captive market (in the case of the rest of the eurozone countries) which can guarantee some exports no matter what.
  
  Trust me, if the eurozone wasn't working out for Germany they would leave. They are not staying the out of the goodness of their hearts, or due to some old war guilt. The fact is that the German government knows what the grand parent posted, they know that they are getting a huge boost for free, they know that the eurozone is helping them immensely.
  
  The problem is that the status quo cannot continue. Germany has sucked up all the production out of the rest of the eurozone (barring Italy and northern countries) and countries are collapsing. So at this point either the EU integrates further, which involves some redistribution o
10. Re:So what are you saying exactly? by shutdown+-p+now · 2012-06-01 04:15 · Score: 1
  
  The Germans have reputation, which they built up before the EU due to being a phenomenal European power. They have had this reputation for hundreds of years.
  Actually, no, they did not. All the stereotypes about Germans you've listed date to late 19th century at the earliest, and most of them are post-WW1 or even post-WW2.
Re:IANAL: explicit consent not part of EU directiv by the_arrow · 2012-05-31 23:12 · Score: 1

The same in Sweden. Though websites have to contain a notice that they have cookies, what cookies are and how to disable them.

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Germany is a hypocrite by Anonymous Coward · 2012-05-31 23:27 · Score: 1

Greece borrows a fuckton of money, pisses it up the wall and then throws a massive sulk when asked to pay it back. Meanwhile Germany makes stuff that people want to buy.
Just who's being subjugated here?
Germany banks got a huge bailout paid for by the rest of the EU:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-23/merkel-should-know-her-country-has-been-bailed-out-too.html
Germany was also the sick man of Europe not too long ago, and they were helped out by the rest of Europe (i.e., the countries that are now having trouble). Of course Germany doesn't bother returning the favor now.
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/06/german-adjustment/
Things aren't as black-and-white as you make them out to be. Too things need to happen for this mess to be solved:
* the ECB needs to lower interest rates
* there needs to be stimulus spending
Austerity has failed everywhere it has been tried, and insisting on is just making things worse. Governments and national economies cannot cut their way to prosperity.
1. Re:Germany is a hypocrite by cpu6502 · 2012-06-01 02:17 · Score: 1
  
  >>>Austerity has failed everywhere it has been tried
  It worked just fine for the U.S. Depression of 1921-22. The Congress made huge cuts in spending, thereby freeing up cash in the private economy, and ending the depression in less than two years. Fastest recovery on record. (Austerity also works on the personal level; cut your spending, pay off your bills, and then you have free cash for investing.)
  
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Foolish, pointless draconian law by lixns21 · 2012-05-31 23:52 · Score: 1

This law needs to desperately be amended to exclude all session cookies, cookies that help UX and analytics. The rest will also need a workable solution like using the W3C recommended DNT that is set as 'NO' to default currently. And if that is set and websites/the pervs in the house upstairs are still dropping cookies/tracking they should then have their backsides hauled to court.
Re:IANAL: explicit consent not part of EU directiv by amw · 2012-06-01 00:16 · Score: 1

IANAL from Austria.
Afaik explicit consent is not explicitly demanded by the EU. UK opted in to require this in their law.
I'm not sure about the wording of the law itself, but the guidelines from the Information Commisioners Office (who are responsible for enforcing the law) implied consent is allowable; that's also how a number of organisations such as the BBC have implemented it, with a once-only banner informing the user and giving them the ability to alter the behaviour if needed.

IANAL, currently in Austria it says that the user decision already happens through the browser settings. If the browser accepts cookies, so does the user and the government sees the problem solved.
That would be much more acceptable; this has been argued for in the UK as well but the ICO have stated that this alone is not an acceptable solution. That said, a lot of sites are now linking to http://www.aboutcookies.org which provides this information.
And in related news by rossdee · 2012-06-01 00:17 · Score: 4, Funny

Bloomberg wants to outlaw cookies in NYC
Thank god we have the EU here in Belgium by SilenceBE · 2012-06-01 00:34 · Score: 1

First of all the cookies is only a single part of the recommendations the EU wants Belgium to implement, so insinuating that Belgium is getting fined about cookies is false. And as a Belgian citizen I applaud the EU involvement because there are to much conflicts of interests on our political level.

Let me inform you about my country. In Belgium we have a duopoly. Belgacom (Belgian symbol) on federal level and Telenet (Flemish symbol but ironically property of the American company Liberty) which was formed to break up the monopoly of Belgacom on Flemish level.

Both companies have a lot of politicians on the payroll, in the board of directors/as 'consultants', etc And because on each level it is a symbol and the current language difficulties that dominates our politician landscape, politician turn a blind eye for the fact that those companies have a very negative impact on our region and country. When our national bank warns in a study for the negative impact of those two companies, it just gets ignored. We have a saying "who's bread you eat, who's word you speak... "

We have very high prices in comparison with our neighbors, Telenet does deep packet inspecting slowing down torrents by day for example, we have unlimited download which is a joke, they created hw monopolies, they buy companies that because of their open character of very competitive plans (like unlimited mobile plans that doesn't cost a house) to kill them or for example just go for their main supplier. They buy licenses for example 4G just to do nothing with it, just to be sure that no foreign competition would arrive. Etc

For example of one the influence they have on laws or on our politicians. We have an in-depended organisation that "tries" to regulate the telecom word on local level, BIPT. Last week they voted a new law that states that when BIPT makes changes or gives fines, the government can revoke those fines or turn back changes. So what is the point ?

Really I've read a lot of bickering about the EU and there may be a lot not right, but hey I'm happy that on some cases something like the EU exists.

And when the Flemish (I'm flemish btw) right wing party the N-VA will come in power, it will be worse because of the big love for the "flemish" symbol Telenet. Although Telenet is as flemish as a big mac these days.
1. Re:Thank god we have the EU here in Belgium by mattcasters · 2012-06-01 01:19 · Score: 1
  
  As for Telenet is concerned: you can prie that 100Mb/s connection out of my cold dead hands. It's great value at a good price. Every time I go abroad (US & EU mainly ) I'm shocked at the bad performance of the networks compared to Telenet. I'm sure you're advocating more oversight and more competition and I sure don't dissagree with that. Just don't exagerate like that, it's not all that bad, trust me.
  Also, fellow "Belgian", the EU laws mentioned in TFA are planned to be implemented as law at the end of this month (says the newspapers). The slow adoption is blamed on the slow formation of the Belgian government. So if you want to blame somebody, blame your socialist friends for fscking up your country, not NVA.
  
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2. Re:Thank god we have the EU here in Belgium by SilenceBE · 2012-06-01 19:27 · Score: 1
  
  Just don't exagerate like that, it's not all that bad, trust me.
  
  You see it from a technical POV. I don't see it from a technical POV but from a view of more openness and competition. If I had the enormous profits influenced by a monopoly, I would also could keep the network up to speed. And when viewed against our neighboring countries (and not some backward country) the price/performance ratio is not that good.
  
  blame your socialist friends for fscking up your country, not NVA
  
  Typical reaction everybody who isn't a N-VA supporter is a friend of the socialists... . It is frightening how small minded some are in that regards. It reminds me of stories what my grandfather told me about WW2.
  
  I didn't blame the NVA for the slow adoption of the law I say that the future doesn't seem bright regarding changes because the next party that will come in power will certainly have the same attitude against those companies as the rest.
Ensured? by IAmGarethAdams · 2012-06-01 00:50 · Score: 3, Informative

You keep using that word. I do not think it means, what you think it means.
On a more helpful note I think "assured" was what you were looking for.
1. Re:Ensured? by mcgrew · 2012-06-01 01:26 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  Whoever modded that informative post "overrated" is one of the aliterates who don't understand that sometimes a misspelling can completely change the meaning of a sentence, as the GP did. The parent clarified the GP and should have been modded up.
  Whoever modded the parent "overrated", waste some points on this comment so you don't have them do make any more bad moderations. Or better yet, JUST STOP MODERATING.
  Dew knot truss yore spill checker.
  
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2. Re:Ensured? by nedlohs · 2012-06-01 02:15 · Score: 1
  
  I can't decide if that's a great joke, or a prime example.
3. Re:Ensured? by RaceProUK · 2012-06-01 02:32 · Score: 1
  
  Woosh potential measuring over 50 gelgars, but here goes nothing...
  illiterate = unable to read or write
  aliterate = able to read or write, but not spell
  If aliterate isn't in the OED, can we try to get it it?
  
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4. Re:Ensured? by Patch86 · 2012-06-01 02:43 · Score: 2
  
  It already is in the OED, although that isn't what it means. It means someone who is able to read and write perfectly well, but chooses not to do so. Essentially a synonym of "book shy".
  http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/aliterate
5. Re:Ensured? by pahles · 2012-06-01 06:34 · Score: 1
  
  Thanks for the helpful note. My English is not perfect (I'm Dutch, as you may have noticed), I learned something today!
  BTW:
  
  You keep using that word.
  Keep using? Where? (just curious)
  
  --
  Sig?
6. Re:Ensured? by IAmGarethAdams · 2012-06-01 12:57 · Score: 1
  
  Inconceivable!
7. Re:Ensured? by fearlezz · 2012-06-01 22:02 · Score: 1
  
  That's probably because assure and ensure both translate to "verzekeren" in Dutch.
  
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Re:IANAL: explicit consent not part of EU directiv by Patch86 · 2012-06-01 02:52 · Score: 1

If the browser accepts cookies, so does the user and the government sees the problem solved.
This wouldn't fly because it misses the point of the directive. The point of it is to separate out "necessary cookies" from cookies that are there solely to track you, target ads at you, etc. The problem with browser settings is that there is no fine grained control- you can either "consent to cookies", and get everything a website designer can throw at you, or you can disable cookies and find key features of all sort of websites become unusable (everything from internet banking to e-shopping).
I believe the acceptable compromise in the UK is that the website must link you to a page telling you about all the cookies that the website uses. If you continue to use the site after being presented with this info, that will be considered informed consent. That is how most major sites I've seen have tackled it (including my company's one).
Follow the money by SmallFurryCreature · 2012-06-01 02:55 · Score: 1

Ghostery blocks 3 items on this very page.
One of them doubleclick.
Slashdot is going to loose a HELL of a lot of money if it can't track its users anymore on behalf of advertisers.

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Re:Government control by mcgrew · 2012-06-01 04:22 · Score: 1

I do NOT understand you hard-core anti-government dweebs. Your "right" to extract cash does NOT trump my right to privacy. Your "right" to pollute does NOT trump my right to be free of your foul emmissions. Your "right" to overcharge for your monopoly service does NOT trump government's responsibility to protect me from it.
The government should NOT be protecting me from myself, but it SHOULD be protecting me from predators. And that is exactly what the EU law does -- protect you from powerful corporations.
Thell the Koch brothers "hi" for me. Either you're very rich, or you're a damned fool.

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