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Oracle Sues Lodsys For Patent Trolling

RWarrior(fobw) writes "PJ reports at Groklaw that Oracle has sued well-known patent troll Lodsys, asking for declaratory judgement in the Eastern District of Texas that Oracle and its customers don't need Lodsys licenses, and that Lodsys patents are invalid anyway. 'It seems that Lodsys has been going after Oracle customers, and they in turn have been asking Oracle to indemnify them. Lodsys, methinks, has made a mistake. One doesn't go after Oracle's money. No. No. Never a good plan. I suspect Oracle will go for damages, tripled, and all their expenses, legal fees, etc. when this is over.' PJ also points out that which companies are the good guys and which are the bad guys depends on which case you're looking at. "

25 of 119 comments (clear)

  1. confused by dmitrygr · · Score: 4, Funny

    Whom do I cheer for now?

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    -------
    1. Enjoy your job
    2. Make lots of money
    3. Work within the law

    Choose any two.
    1. Re:confused by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      The lawyers. If you're going to cheer for someone, you might as well cheer for the guys who you know always wins.

    2. Re:confused by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Freddy vs. Jason... Alien vs. Predator... Godzilla vs. King Kong...

      Humanity is always screwed.

    3. Re:confused by StormReaver · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Whom do I cheer for now?

      That's easy: neither.

      Oracle is an evil company suing another evil company, but neither one is the good guy. Oracle's interests just happen to align with The Right Thing to Do on this occasion, so they are on the side of good by pure coincidence.

      Don't cheer for Oracle, but cheer for the good thing Oracle just happens to be doing at this fleeting moment in time, for Oracle will still be evil at the next earliest opportunity.

    4. Re:confused by NotBorg · · Score: 4, Funny

      Finally someone points out that lawyers are not human!

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      I want this account deleted.
    5. Re:confused by NotBorg · · Score: 3, Funny

      Whom do I cheer for now?

      You don't have to cheer at all. You can simply resort to booing, which is just as fun and you get to throw things!

      --
      I want this account deleted.
    6. Re:confused by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Whom do I cheer for now?

      If Oracle wins this case, the precedent will hurt their ability to patent troll in the future too, so...as painful as this is...cheer for Oracle.

    7. Re:confused by mark-t · · Score: 4, Funny

      So, ideally, they engage in a long and drawn out battle that culminates in their mutual annihilation?

    8. Re:confused by hbar+squared · · Score: 2

      It's like Hitler vs. Stalin. You don't really want to root for either, you just hope somehow it ends with fewer genocides.

    9. Re:confused by reve_etrange · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ideally, the battle also results in a precedent that weakens patent protection for algorithms.

      --
      .: Semper Absurda :.
  2. Who's the bigger troll here? by ilikenwf · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I mean, Oracle did just basically lose a huge patent troll case over a freely available API implementation...

    1. Re:Who's the bigger troll here? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I'm glad they lost, but when I think patent trolling, I usually think of a bogus shell company that hasn't actually created anything. They're just paper companies dumping cash into legal action to turn a profit, designed to shield the players behind it from any kind of retribution.

      So it might be a bit of a stretch, but at least I'll give Oracle some credit on for doing what they were convinced was legitimate protection of their own work... even if it was a shitty thing to do and failed miserably.

    2. Re:Who's the bigger troll here? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3

      Given that their 'APIs are intrinsically copyrighted, even if implementations are entirely distinct' theory was both novel and potentially wildly dangerous to the entire software industry, I say fuck 'em.

    3. Re:Who's the bigger troll here? by ilikenwf · · Score: 2

      Yes, that's traditional patent trolling, but on the other hand, to take something that your company and the ones before it had freely granted people to use in an effort to shut out and shut down competitors - is that not quite trollish as well?

    4. Re:Who's the bigger troll here? by amicusNYCL · · Score: 3, Informative

      The Oracle vs. Google case was not about patent trolling, that was about Oracle trying to get money from Google any possible way they could. It turns out that they couldn't, but you can't really blame them for trying (it's their nature). That is distinct from a patent troll, where they go and acquire patents specifically for the sole purpose of extorting other companies. Oracle at least makes legitimate revenue doing legitimate engineering work.

      I believe that case wasn't even about patents though, it was about copyright.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    5. Re:Who's the bigger troll here? by Grishnakh · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's certainly bad behavior, but it's very distinct from patent trolls. The entire business case for patent trolls is to get a patent on some obvious BS, written in a nebulous way that it'll certainly apply to upcoming work (I hesitate to use the word "inventions" here), and then when that technological development comes into widespread use, sue. It's just like how mythical trolls under bridges demand payment from passers-by even though the troll isn't providing any service at all; the patent troll doesn't actually do anything useful; their patent isn't even useful, it's so vague and nebulous and doesn't have any details to actually describe how to do anything.

      Oracle with their Google/Java case was a little different. They actually provided a useful product, Java, and were mad that Google made their own work-alike version of Java and made a lot of money with it, without paying them anything for it. It would be a lot like some Linux distro including WINE, somehow improving WINE greatly so that it actually works well with ALL Windows software, and then selling computers with this new Linux/WINE distro as a fully-compatible replacement for Windows, and becoming wildly successful, and then MS suing because WINE uses Windows APIs, even though everything underneath is totally different and there's no code copied from Windows OS.

  3. I suck by smittyoneeach · · Score: 5, Funny

    Avoid patent trolls,
    And that lawfare schtick,
    Like facial moles,
    Lest one suffer a prick.
    Burma Shave

    --
    Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
  4. Damages? by arth1 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Forgive me for being dense, but "I suspect Oracle will go for damages, tripled" seems silly - can you sue for damages in a preemptive lawsuit, giving that you are technically the defendant?

    1. Re:Damages? by gstrickler · · Score: 2

      If they're suing Oracle's customers over a product the customer legitimately purchased from Oracle, then it's not a stretch to say that Oracle's reputation and customer relationship was damaged by Lodsys' suits. And, Oracle could potentially include anyone Lodsys sued over Oracle products as a co-plaintiff in this suit, thereby adding those legal costs and/or business interruption to the damages.

      Lodsys stepped it it big time, they better hope they are correct, because you know Oracle won't give up.

      --
      make imaginary.friends COUNT=100 VISIBLE=false
  5. Re:The enemy of my enemy ... by Isaac+Remuant · · Score: 4, Informative

    From the groklaw article.

    See why I always tell you that to avoid whiplash, don't look at the parties in litigation and decide who you like, but anaylze the issues involved and plant your flag accordingly? Hence, here we are, on the same side of this issue, Groklaw and Oracle. Who'd-a thunk it last week?

    --
    "Science can amuse and fascinate us all, but it is engineering that changes the world. " - Asimov.
  6. Seems like a pattern by Anubis+IV · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Lodsys is the troll that went after iOS developers for in-app purchases, even though Apple had already licensed the rights to that patent on behalf of their developers. It's not exactly surprising to see that they'd try the same thing with Oracle, nor is it surprising to see that Oracle is following Apple's lead in trying to intervene on behalf of the smaller guys. After all, taking on the big companies is hard, but if you can target their customers or users, you can oftentimes win. Lodsys seems to have made a business of doing so.

  7. Re:Where are we regarding software patents? by Theaetetus · · Score: 2

    I was under the impression that U.S. law was still unsettled regarding the ability to patent software.

    But if that were true, I would have expected at least *one* patent lawsuit in recent years make headlines by claiming that software patents were invalid, and getting a ruling on that issue.

    Anyone know where we're at with this?

    The Supreme Court has implied that software patents are valid, if they're not directed to an abstract idea. In some contexts, that can mean that they transform matter from one state to another, in others it can mean that they're tied to a machine. In still others... well, we don't know. That's where we're at.

    Basically, they're tiptoeing around, trying to figure out how to say what they really want to say, which is that patent claims can't be valid if you can infringe them purely by thinking, because that creates a thoughtcrime. It's like back when they said that you can't get a patent on a law of nature, such as E=MC^2, or A=GM/r^2: what they never came right out and said, but seems to be hinted at by all sorts of decisions, is that if you could, you could get an injunction to make people stop being bound by gravity, or not use energy, or whatnot - or, rather, that you could require every person in the world to pay you royalties. Similarly, if you got a patent on thinking that 2+2=4, or realizing that an elevated level of compound A indicates a patient has disease B, then you could force someone to pay royalties simply for thinking. It's the old "don't think of a pink elephant... too late." So, currently, they want to see some affirmative actions, performed by a machine at the direction of a user, in the patent claims. You can't infringe just by thinking, you actually have to take some steps.

    This says nothing about novelty (35 USC 102) or obviousness (35 USC 103). Those are different statutes... The above is just about whether a claimed process - even the most novel, nonobvious process in the history of the universe - is patent eligible or not.

  8. Not a suit for "trolling" by Theaetetus · · Score: 3, Informative
    A suit for "trolling" would be a suit over malicious prosecution, or harassment, or extortion, or something like that. This is a suit for noninfringement and declaratory judgement, saying that (i) Oracle doesn't infringe 4 Lodsys patents; and (ii) even if they do, the patents are invalid. These are the same claims that every defendant files in their response when they get sued. Oracle is simply taking a preemptive shot, presumably because Lodsys sent them a letter asking them to take a license.

    The only odd part is that when accused infringers take this preemptive shot, they usually don't do it in the Eastern District of Texas. It's actually one of the reasons to file first when someone hints at a lawsuit - you get to choose where to go.

  9. Just because Oracle was wrong... by NoKaOi · · Score: 2

    Just because Oracle was wrong doesn't make them a troll, by most common definitions of a troll anyway. Even though Oracle's case was idiotic for so many reasons that have already been beaten to death, at least they actually make stuff. They lost their idiotic case, so at least to some degree the system sorta-kinda worked. From their prospective, they did what they did to protect their own stuff.

    Lodsys, on the other hand, doesn't make anything. They do what they do, not to protect their own stuff, but for the sole purpose of suing people. Worse yet, they go after the users (at least Oracle went after Google, not everyone with a phone) who they know don't have the resources to defend themselves. They are using the so-called justice system for extortion. That they even exist is a clear sign that the justice system is horribly broken. Oracle is like the mentally retarded Lenny who happens to murder somebody who was in his path out of uncontrolled stupidity (still an evil act), while Lodsys is like Freddy Krueger, whose sole purpose of existence is to murder people in their sleep.

  10. The enemy of my enemy is... by thegarbz · · Score: 2

    The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy.

    No more. No less.