Japan Restarts Two of Its 50 Nuclear Reactors

That's good news by Tarantulas · 2012-06-16 08:08 · Score: 5, Insightful

They should leave all the reactors offline that have safety flaws common to the Fukushima plants (close proximity to tidal wave hazards, external diesel generator fuel tanks, etc.) and start up all the rest.

Re:That's good news by SuperTechnoNerd · 2012-06-16 08:25 · Score: 4, Informative

It's not that simple because Japan has the additional problem that some of the country uses 60Hz like here in the us and some places use 50Hz like in europe.
Re:That's good news by AK+Marc · 2012-06-16 08:37 · Score: 5, Funny

Why don't they standardize on 55 Hz?

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Re:That's good news by gstrickler · 2012-06-16 09:10 · Score: 2, Informative

Actually, that's not a problem, they use an HVDC line between the two grids.

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Re:That's good news by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-16 09:40 · Score: 5, Informative

You know, do at least *some* research before stating bullshit.
It is a HUGE PROBLEM. Any interconnect is very limited in size. If a significant portion of one grid is impacted, you can't easily move power from one grid to another. This is exactly the situation in Japan.
Re:That's good news by nojayuk · 2012-06-16 09:51 · Score: 5, Informative

The HVDC links between the two grids have a limited capacity, about 2GW as I recall. They've not needed anything bigger since both parts of the country have adequate generating capacity for each region, or at least they did until the nuclear stations in the Kansai area and points south shut down for inspection and refuelling and didn't restart. The Kanto area (Tokyo and environs) has a lot of older coal-burning and oil-burning power stations that were demothballed after they lost the Fukushima Daiichi and Daini reactors and the other stations shut down due to the quake and tsunami (Onagawa, Tokai and Hamaoka) were refused permission to restart. Kansai (Osaka, Kobe, Hiroshima etc.) has fewer fossil-burners available to bring back to use hence the predicted electricity supply shortages in the region this summer.
Re:That's good news by guruevi · 2012-06-16 10:19 · Score: 2

Most electronics these days would actually. The problem is anything that uses the grid as a time source such as old clocks, electric motors as well as UPS, generators and the like

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Re:That's good news by petermgreen · 2012-06-16 12:08 · Score: 3, Informative

Some older electronics with PSUs that use mains frequency transformers and whose design was close to the edge may have problems as may some stuff that uses mains as a time reference but mostly electronics should be fine.
Clocks (whether electronic or mechanical) that derive their timebase from the mains would be a nuisance but ultimately if it was the main issue I think they would have forced a transition through by now.
Afaict the real problem is the big stuff, big motors and generators are usually at least somewhat locked to grid frequency and a 10% change in operating speed is probablly not acceptable. Transformers can also be problematic as a lower frequency can cause core saturation leading to overheating. Replacing that stuff would be seriously expensive.

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Re:That's good news by MacGyver2210 · 2012-06-16 16:20 · Score: 3, Informative

after they lost the Fukushima Daiichi and Daini reactors

The Fukushima Daini reactor was not lost, and didn't even sustain damage. It shut down automatically during the earthquake, and was not restarted due to the unfounded fear/danger/hype that began about nuclear power.

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Re:That's good news by Hognoxious · 2012-06-16 20:48 · Score: 2

If they didn't use two different frequencies (must read up on how that WTF happened) they wouldn't need a half-assed workaround in the first place.

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Re:That's good news by AmiMoJo · 2012-06-16 22:02 · Score: 2

Or maybe the fact that they realized there were serious design flaws in all their reactors. For example Daini was only built to withstand a magnitude 7.2 quake, so it was luck rather than design that saved it. Had the epicentre been closer it might have failed catastrophically. Plus no reactor had ever been in such a large quake before so despite limited testing back in the 60s a lot was learned from it.
The two reactors being restarted have been upgraded to survive a larger quake and to have better monitoring and fault tolerance. That was a key factor in getting them running again - the flaws that had been discovered were addressed. Seems perfectly reasonable to me, unlike your unfounded faith/presumption of safety/hype.

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Re:That's good news by SuperTechnoNerd · 2012-06-17 06:24 · Score: 2

Most electrical systems will only work on the frequency they are designed for except perhaps a switching power supply because its rectified and filtered anyhow. However for an ac induction motor even a 1Hz difference will cause them to overheat. In fact your power does not even drift much more than +/- .2 Hz and the entire grid is in sync.

Yep... by Mashiki · 2012-06-16 08:09 · Score: 5, Insightful

Can't survive on renewable energy, and can't built the old coal power plants fast enough even when you're buying up coal as fast as Canada can dig it out of the ground for you. Not a surprise...not a damn surprise. Especially when you've got the idle plants just sitting there.

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Re:Yep... by mweather · 2012-06-16 08:18 · Score: 4, Funny

Building coal plants fast enough isn't a problem unless you simultaneously shut down all the nuclear reactors.
Re:Yep... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-16 08:23 · Score: 5, Insightful

If people get pissed about nuclear reactors and see building coal plants as a good alternative, I wouldn't care about the time it takes, those people are bloody idiots.
Re:Yep... by OeLeWaPpErKe · 2012-06-16 13:31 · Score: 3, Informative

Supplying coal is one problem, dumping the toxic remains is another. Coal power plants are a disaster as bad as fukushima even when nothing goes wrong.
Re:Yep... by Coren22 · 2012-06-17 05:47 · Score: 2

Show me a single citation that says no one can live within 20km of any Japanese power plant. The main concern is crops, not houses.

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and this time they picked no disasters in the menu by Joe_Dragon · 2012-06-16 08:13 · Score: 2

and this time they picked no disasters in the menu

Shortages are a solved problem. by Ichijo · 2012-06-16 08:38 · Score: 3, Interesting

There's another way to fix the shortfall: simply raise the price of peak hour electricity until demand falls to the level of supply. We've known for hundreds of years that prices set below the going rate determined by supply and demand is the cause of shortages.

The increased peak hour revenue could be used to lower off-peak electricity prices so that people pay on average the same as before.

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Re:Shortages are a solved problem. by fredgiblet · 2012-06-16 09:35 · Score: 2, Insightful

You're an idiot.
Re:Shortages are a solved problem. by jklovanc · 2012-06-16 09:36 · Score: 3, Insightful

Sorry but your logic does not actually work well for hot areas. The peak need for air conditioning comes during the day which is also the peak overall electrical demand time. At night the need for cooling is less as would the electrical rates would be lower. So as the days get hotter an air conditioning user will be using much more peak priced energy than off peak priced energy and their electrical bill will go up.
What about businesses who only operate during peak price time? They will not get much discount from off-peak price because they do not use it.
There is a falsehood in tying every purchase to the supply/demand curve. Some commodities are considered discretionary purchases. In the case of orange juice one could purchase apple juice instead. The supply/demand curve works very well in such cases. In the case of electricity, the only option is to use less. Most people are already conserving as much as they can so electrical purchases are no longer discretionary. No matter how much you raise prices most people are still going to use what they use up to the point of no longer paying their electrical bill.
Re:Shortages are a solved problem. by GreatBunzinni · 2012-06-16 11:30 · Score: 3, Informative

There's another way to fix the shortfall: simply raise the price of peak hour electricity until
...until industrial production is affected by the skyrocketing costs and the whole economy of Japan faces a recession caused by the increased production costs and lack of ability to compete in the economic field.
In alternative, they can simply turn on a couple of the 50 power generators they have just sitting there, that never exhibit a single problem in their entire existence.
I wonder what's the best option.

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Re:Shortages are a solved problem. by Ichijo · 2012-06-16 11:39 · Score: 2

...until industrial production is affected by the skyrocketing costs...

All they have to do is shut down a few production machines during times of peak electrical usage. The workers can take a nap during that time, or that time could mark a shift change. It wouldn't destroy the economy.

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Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
Re:Shortages are a solved problem. by thegarbz · 2012-06-16 13:22 · Score: 5, Insightful

There's another way to fix the shortfall: simply raise the price of peak hour electricity until demand falls to the level of supply.
Yes that works quite well if you're an all consuming nation that has no industry and produces nothing. Quite the opposite is true for Japan. The real fears were that rolling blackouts would start to affect their manufacturing industry and that it would give rise to a second major crash in their economy.
That doesn't even take into account what happens to a nation which is unable to run cooling or heating. Treating people suffering a condition is many times less efficient on resources than preventing the condition from taking place in the first place. You only need to look to Europe to see what happens when gas supplies are suddenly removed from people, which is exactly what happens when you price heating or cooling out of reach of people who may suffer heat stroke / hypothermia.
Re:Shortages are a solved problem. by lucifuge31337 · 2012-06-16 15:46 · Score: 3, Insightful

I asked a valid question.
And you were asked if you were an idiot because even as far north as New York (and further) every summer hear wave comes with reports on the news of how many people died in their homes form the heat. Yes, these are predominantly the old and/or infirm and always the poor. I'm in no way OK with that. Are you?

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Re:Shortages are a solved problem. by FishTankX · 2012-06-16 20:52 · Score: 2

Actually Japanese people probably most of all industrialized nations seem to want to work after retirement.
http://longevity.ilcjapan.org/f_issues/0602.html
Give this a read. might surprise you on the issue of retirement.
Re:Shortages are a solved problem. by inasity_rules · 2012-06-16 23:00 · Score: 2

I am an industrial engineer, and I would like to point out to you you are talking rubbish. Very few processes I have seen lend themselves to that sort of thing. Heck even the food industry here uses steam/coal/electricity at about the same rate 24/7. Almost all heavy industry runs 24/7 simply because it would be too expensive to shut down. At best places like this (normally on a notified maximum demand tariff) can barely avoid exceeding their NMD, let alone reducing it. Demand control on any significant power user affects the bottom line in a very real way, and from experience is bypassed 9 times out of 10 after it is implemented.
When you have businesses that struggle even in the slightest, and you screw the bottom line, they will fail. China is bloody hard to compete with.

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not actually that unpopular locally by Trepidity · 2012-06-16 08:39 · Score: 5, Informative

While restarting any nuclear reactors is currently quite unpopular in Japan nationally, the decision to restart this particular plant's two reactors was actually made with local input and approval. Local councils aren't normally required to approve such matters, but due to the current controversy, Japan's government de-facto made restart contingent on approval from the local government. After several months of safety studies and deliberation, the municipal council voted 11-1 in favor of restarting the reactors in mid-May, which gave the national government some cover to go ahead with it.

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Re:not actually that unpopular locally by Kalidor · 2012-06-16 09:03 · Score: 4, Interesting

Agreed. I also like how 32% opposed to the restart, and 38% with no opinions in public polls (numbers in the the same NHK feed they sourced) is "widespread public opposition".

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Re:not actually that unpopular locally by sjames · 2012-06-16 11:52 · Score: 4, Insightful

In general, nothing trumps NIMBY quite like a threatened return to the dark ages.

No surprise by bazorg · 2012-06-16 09:03 · Score: 4, Insightful

When you can't have everything your way, having some electricity is not a bad start.

What an incredibly stupid argument by SuperKendall · 2012-06-16 10:14 · Score: 5, Insightful

Both Fukushima and the subsequent tests have clearly shown that nuclear power, especially when bought from an occupying power and built by a powerful oligopoly under a weak and corrupt government, is neither cheap, nor safe.

If you had even a single brain cell you would arrive at the opposite conclusion.

Fukushima survived a huge earthquake, and unexpected wave, and a disastrous internal failure.

DESPITE all that, very few people were killed, and almost no-one outside the plant had any exposure of significance to radiation.

And all this in a plant with a design that was decades old...

If you can't see how inherently safe nuclear is from this incident, nothing can reach your luddite mind.

Nuclear is the one green energy we truly have at our disposal, and backward bumpkins like yourself seek to rob humanity of the benefits that come from cheap and continuous access to power. How many more lives must perish under your cruel tyranny of unwarranted fear?

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Re:What an incredibly stupid argument by LordLimecat · 2012-06-16 17:26 · Score: 5, Insightful

DESPITE all that, very few people were killed,
Thats not exactly true, I heard some 20,000 died from the tidal wave.
The mockery here is that everyone has their panties in a bunch over 2 hospitalized workers (no doubt very brave and much to be commended) and a handful who died @ fukushima, while a whole coastline was littered with dead and dying people who got about 5 minutes of airtime.
WOOO PERSPECTIVE! Way to have those priorities in line.
Re:What an incredibly stupid argument by Pecisk · 2012-06-16 20:07 · Score: 2

You tackled main issue here - fear. Fear is primal instinct, and you can't sway it away with logic. People fear what they don't see. In fear people will justify any avoidance with any arguments. Heck, they will think that they don't have to justify it at all.

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Re:Nuclear disaster nearly shut down Tokyo by Anonymous Coward · 2012-06-16 11:55 · Score: 2, Insightful

Maybe NIMBY's should remember this the next time they cockblock replacement of aging 60 year old 1st generation reactors that have exceeded their operational lifespan.

Re:Nuclear disaster nearly shut down Tokyo by Rising+Ape · 2012-06-16 11:58 · Score: 4, Insightful

(with the disaster spreading to nuclear reactors closer to Tokyo) this would have happened.

What possible mechanism could have caused that? Radioactive leaks aren't like an infectious disease, they don't cause distant power stations to become damaged.

Re:Nuclear disaster nearly shut down Tokyo by solferino · 2012-06-16 12:34 · Score: 3, Informative

The 400-page report, due to be released later this week, also describes a darkening mood at the prime minister's residence as a series of hydrogen explosions rocked the plant on March 14 and 15. It says Mr. Kan and other officials began discussing a worst-case outcome if workers at the Fukushima Daiichi plant were evacuated. This would have allowed the plant to spiral out of control, releasing even larger amounts of radioactive material into the atmosphere that would in turn force the evacuation of other nearby nuclear plants, causing further meltdowns.
The report quotes the chief cabinet secretary at the time, Yukio Edano, as having warned that such a 'demonic chain reaction' of plant meltdowns could result in the evacuation of Tokyo, 150 miles to the south.
"We would lose Fukushima Daini, then we would lose Tokai," Mr. Edano is quoted as saying, naming two other nuclear plants. "If that happened, it was only logical to conclude that we would also lose Tokyo itself."

Source: NY Times article on top-level report reviewing the disaster.

Yet... by microbox · 2012-06-16 14:16 · Score: 2

Can't survive on renewable energy, yet,

ftfy

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Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right

Re:Yet... by microbox · 2012-06-16 15:03 · Score: 2

I used to think that way -- but I've been following the technology for a long time, and things are really starting to move. Here is some food for thought...

The missing link in renewable energy (cheap scalable batteries).
solar reaching price parity soon
Wind at a crossroads. The power output increases as a square of tower height -- so people are thinking about enormous off-shore towers, or towers in the great lakes.

There is really a lot more going on, including 20% of the US economy being under a revenue neutral carbon cap-and-trade for 10 years. (Bet you didn't know that.) This part of the US economy has seen the slowest growth in energy prices, and experienced more economic growth than the rest of the country. (Follow the link for reports.)

Renewable energy isn't just about the environment, or energy security -- it's also about growing the economy. Alas for the political discourse. The oil/coal lobby is well funded and very active, and the chief cronies in crony-capitalism.

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Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
Re:Yet... by budgenator · 2012-06-17 05:49 · Score: 2

Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative in Connecticut, Delaware, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New York, Rhode Island, and Vermont, and all of the craziness out in California is great news for us in Michigan, we need the jobs.

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Time shifting is not easy by jklovanc · 2012-06-16 16:48 · Score: 2

Over the course of a full year, the average electric bill would stay the same.

Actually there is no "reversal" the bills just won't be as high. The will still be using some high priced day electricity and some lower priced night electricity. If electrical heat is used then they will be in the same boat as the high costs will be for heating during the day rather than cooling.That also does not help if you can not afford your summer bills. Many people live from paycheck to paycheck and can not afford high bills.

If they only operate during peak price, it's because there isn't enough of an incentive to shift their operating hours. This changes that.

How many businesses do you know that can shift their hours out of the 9AM to 5PM range? Most business do business with people and other businesses between 9and5. Even if it was possible to shift the schedule, how many people would want to work nights when they could do the same job during the day? Also by shifting to nights all that would happen is that business would move to companies that were open during the day.

Time-of-use pricing gives people an additional option: shift heavy electrical usage (such as laundry and cooking and dishes) to the off-peak periods in order to save money. Giving people additional ways to save money is a good thing, right?

How many people do you think will wait till past midnight to cook dinner? How many people will do the same for laundry? Sure one could have a timer on the machine and have it run late at night but that would mean it would take 2 days to do a load (one for wash and one for dry as the laundry will not move from the washer to the dryer by itself). Most people sleep during off peak energy hours which is the main reason the demand is lower. Most people come home from work, make dinner, wash dishes, do laundry, watch some tv and go to bed. This standard is not going to change due to changing electrical bills. Realistic options are good but unrealistic options are not.

Re:Cognitive dissonance by roman_mir · 2012-06-16 19:09 · Score: 2

European economies, USA economy, Japanese economy, former USSR economy, Zimbabwe economy, Argentina economy, Weimer Republic economy, and many others have done this - borrowed, printed, spent money by the government.

All the evidence points that it didn't make their economies stronger, it made them weaker.

OTOH Swiss economy (before this year, when they turned Franc into Euro), former USA economy (before 1913), have not done this, haven't printed money, prevented government spending, they were doing very well.

USA contracted gov't spending by about 70% in 1921 and by over 60% past WWII, and thus they cut taxes (gov't spending is taxes), and that's how those two depressions ended.

However when the gov't splurged (1925 to 1945, about a decade prior to 1970, then 1990s, 2000s) the economies ended up in recessions and then depressions, as money was misallocated from the private sector to the gov't.

All the evidence shows that gov't spending hurts the economy and when people are given more freedoms (19th century USA, China for the last 40 years,) the wealth of the country grows.

When OTOH the gov't takes over and private spending diminishes (USSR, China before it got over the financial communism, Cuba, Somalia under communism, North Korea, etc.) the country stops producing anything and most people suffer, while the top government officials live in relative wealth.

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Re:Wrong again by roman_mir · 2012-06-17 07:58 · Score: 2

Saying that "all currencies are debased" is ridiculous.

- ha ha ha.

20 year trends:

Orange Juice - here you have to switch from year to year to see that prices are growing, it shows one year at a time, so in 2012 the prices are about 180, in 2005 the prices are around 100, in 2001 they are about 85, it's an interactive chart.

coffee - 2012, prices are about 250, in 2010 it's about 160, in 2006 it's about 110, in 2004 it's about 80, in 2001 it's about 55

etc.

The governments of all countries are destroying their currencies in response to the USA printing theirs as fast as USA can, that's what all of the fake interest rates set up by the Fed are about, that's what the stimulus and 'QE' are and were all about, bail outs, etc.etc.

Everybody is destroying their currency, you are not paying any attention.

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Japan Restarts Two of Its 50 Nuclear Reactors

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