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U.S. Students Struggle With Reasoning Skills

sciencehabit writes "The first-ever use of interactive computer tasks on a national science assessment suggests that most U.S. students struggle with the reasoning skills needed to investigate multiple variables, make strategic decisions, and explain experimental results. The results (PDF) are part of the National Assessment of Educational Progress that was given in 2009 to a representative sample of students in grades four, eight, and 12. What the vast majority of students can do, the data show, is make straightforward analyses. More than three-quarters of fourth grade students, for example, could determine which plants were sun-loving and which preferred the shade when using a simulated greenhouse to determine the ideal amount of sunlight for the growth of mystery plants. When asked about the ideal fertilizer levels for plant growth, however, only one-third of the students were able to perform the required experiment, which featured nine possible fertilizer levels and only six trays. Fewer than half the students were able to use supporting evidence to write an accurate explanation of the results. Similar patterns emerged for students in grades 8 and 12."

21 of 488 comments (clear)

  1. No suprise there by Hatta · · Score: 5, Insightful

    US adults struggle with reasoning skills too.

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    1. Re:No suprise there by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I ain't paid to reason, I paid to go to meetin's.

    2. Re:No suprise there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Broader than that: Humans struggle with reasoning skills.

    3. Re:No suprise there by ZonkerWilliam · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Tests are not about reasoning, but knowing the information.

      I believe you have it, a lot of the youths I talk to rely on facts and do not try to "figure" it out on their own.

      I think it's the biggest danger for youth today, this prevents them from going into the sciences or engineering.

    4. Re:No suprise there by Mike+Buddha · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's fascinating to see this poor reasoning played out on this very forum right now, right before our very eyes.

      --
      by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
  2. Misleading headline? by djlemma · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The headline implies that US students have more difficulty with reasoning skills than other students as a whole, or that this difficulty is unique to students from the US. I could easily imagine that these skills are lacking for students around the globe...

    1. Re:Misleading headline? by thepike · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Agreed, I'd like to see the scores from other countries.

      Also, I'd like to see this with adults in different professions. For instance, are scientists better at this than artists? And what about creativity scores?

      My gut says that a) all children will probably not be great at this and b) adults probably aren't either. And sadly it probably doesn't match up as well with profession as we might like. I'm a molecular biologist and plenty of my colleagues would probably struggle with these tasks. I wish I could take the test to see how I do (but I'm also afraid I would fail miserably).

    2. Re:Misleading headline? by Korin43 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Reasoning is required to be a scientist.

      It may be required to be a good scientist, but not to get a job as one.

    3. Re:Misleading headline? by djlemma · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I never presented any evidence, my point was that the study never collected any data about other countries in the first place. Thus, I don't approve of using a wording that singles out the US as being inferior somehow, when there's really not data (in this study) that implies any such thing. The article also mentions that they hadn't collected this particular data before, so they can't even compare to how US students did 10 years ago, or 5 years ago, or any such thing.

      Also, judging by the article, the announcement seemed to boil down to "Students have an easy time with easy questions, but a harder time with hard questions."

    4. Re:Misleading headline? by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Maybe these 4th graders would perform better if someone simply SHOWED them how to determine which of 6 fertilizers is better. Maybe a class called "Lab" would be appropriate to fix this deficiency.

      Yes... because after that, they would know exactly how to determine which of those 6 fertilizers is better in each of those lighting situations.

      Really... I was frustrated with this back when I was in grade 4; teachers encouraged learning specific processes to solve specific problems, and most kids couldn't figure out what to do when stuck in an unfamiliar situation. This wasn't all that surprising, considering grade 4 is about the age where this kind of reasoning ability starts to develop, given a favourable development environment. I remember struggling with basic maths in grade 4, but having no difficulties (other than mathematical errors) completing the problem solving steps. I went socratic on my classmates who didn't have a clue where to begin.

      Maybe these 4th graders would perform better if someone simply SHOWED them how to question the steps of the process, and ask about parts they didn't understand, instead of pretending they already knew everything about it that was worth their time understanding and focus instead on getting the "winning answer". And yes, s/4th graders/humanity/.

  3. Too much time spent teaching tests by sandytaru · · Score: 4, Insightful

    -- instead of teaching them how to actually think.

    --
    Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
    1. Re:Too much time spent teaching tests by CannonballHead · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I see a lot of comments about "schools don't teach you to think anymore." On the other hand, you can't reason the right answers out if you have the wrong basis (facts, memorization, etc.). It's like saying that elementary school math doesn't teach you how to solve large multiplication problems anymore, they just teach times tables! ... but it's hard to do a multiplication problem without knowing what 6 * 8 is off the top of your head. Memorization of some things is extremely important to reasoning skills.

      I also wonder if it has to do with books. Reading is out, other forms of media is in. Visual media doesn't make you think a whole lot. Even adults that do think can watch a movie, totally zone out and entirely ignore how things are presented, what views the movie is expressing (if any), whether or not it's realistic in any way, etc. Some movies push you to think; most, though, push people to turn off their brains.

      And since visual media (games, TV, movies, etc) are getting more and more prevalent ... I wonder if the lack of reasoning and thinking is related to the lack of necessity of imagination that is stimulated through reading books?

  4. Congratulations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    After billions of dollars we have produced an education system churning out children that cannot think for themselves.

  5. What do you expect? by Lucas123 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Multiple choice, standardized tests don't promote reasoning, just memorization. It's time we revamp the education system and our testing methods. Let's focus on students completing lengthy projects and being graded on their success.

    1. Re:What do you expect? by BetterSense · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I still remember getting this one wrong in grade school:

      How many 'states of matter' are there?
      a) 1
      b) 2
      c) 3
      d) 4

      I would answer 4--Solid, Liquid, Gas, Plasma--because I read books. But we weren't expected to know about plasma, so the correct answer was always 3, and I was marked wrong. The teachers never gave me credit, because I don't think they knew what a plasma was either.

  6. Re:No Child Left Behind Sucks. by h4rr4r · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why did that surprise you?
    Teachers are doing a job. If that job is evaluated based on standardized tests, they will make sure that job is done well.

    Do you not work for income? Would you not focus on the parts of your job that are actually evaluated?

  7. No experience with the utility of reason by russotto · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Kids live in a world even more arbitrary and capricious than that of adults. This is especially true in primary and secondary school. Why, then, would they develop reasoning skills? Those that do end up challenging authority and getting arbitrarily slapped down, so there's negative incentives as well as a lack of positive ones.

  8. Teach Logic by dcollins · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm coming around to the opinion that we've got to teach logic at a very young age, as was done in classical education. Ultimately it's the foundation to all of math and the scientific method. If the first time you study basic logic is in college, then your entire education is built on shifting sand.

    --
    We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
  9. So? by wcrowe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I just have to ask, is it really reasonable to assume that everyone should have great analytical skills? The study says that about one third of the students had the necessary reasoning skills. This sounds about right to me. Most people are not very analytical. This is why professions that require good analytical skills (medicine, engineering, law, etc.) tend to pay good wages.

    Anyway, this study would be more interesting if we could compare current results with results from the past, or results in other countries. As it is, it's about as interesting as saying, "One third of students were over five feet tall." Without some sort of context to put that in, we can only speculate on its significance.

    --
    Proverbs 21:19
  10. Big surprise? by Kaz+Kylheku · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Most people are not going to become scientists. At the elementary school level, people are not yet pre-selected for thinking roles; you're looking at basically a more or less random sample of the population.

    Out of a thousand elementary school kids, how many will become scientists, engineers, etc?

    Now if, say, third year engineering students across the USA are were found to be struggling with reasoning skills, oops, that would be troubling news.

    Unfortunately for those kids who are struggling with reasoning, though, a lot of the kinds of jobs that they might have easily gone into after high school fifty years ago are now overseas.

  11. Overly critical. by MaWeiTao · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Anyone who thinks American students are bad with reasoning obviously hasn't spent much time outside the country. Those people haven't seen anything, especially Asia. And the problem isn't just reasoning skills, it's simply entertaining your own opinion as opposed to trying to please a superior. I've been in situations where an employee was asked what they thought about something and they'd sheepishly avoid the answer. Even when pressed they seemed unable to come up with a response. Lack of creative and independent thinking continues to be a problem, even in Japan.

    That said, I think America is moving too far in the opposite direction. Sometimes rote memorization essential. And you need standardized tests to glean some sort of progress. They might not be perfect, but there's no better alternative.

    The fact of the matter is that you need the fundamentals before you can progress. It's similar to artistic technique. Too many people hide behind the label of modern art to excuse their lack of talent. In order to have flexibility you need underlying ability. It's essentially the same principle here. And the fact is that kids don't necessarily have the knack for reasoning that people acquire with age. So why waste excessive amounts of energy trying to drill that into them?

    But certainly, Americans have the ability to think independently and creatively. And I find them to generally be better informed and less prone to falling for myths, urban legends and other such nonsense. I'll concede, it could be the part of the country where I live. But overseas and amongst immigrants I've found that the consensus is that the US has the best educational system in the world.