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Ask Slashdot: Jobs For Geeks In the Business/Financial World?
First time accepted submitter menphix writes "Hi there! I'm a software engineer in the bay area. I will be moving to Hong Kong where my wife works shortly. I understand that there will be a lot less opportunities to work for software companies there than in the bay area, but they do have a lot of business/financial companies in HK: investment banking, private equity, hedge funds, you name it! So I'm thinking maybe it'll be easier if I transition to work for those companies. Since I got my B.S. and M.S. both in computer science, I have no idea what those 'Wall Street jobs' are like, so I'm just wondering what you guys know about jobs in the business/financial world for geeks? Has anybody made the jump before?"
Hi
I have made the jump to the financial world. The short of it, there are plenty of people of IT people in the business so it is hard to get in now. But if you have talent and have something you can probably make it. Though if you have zero business knowledge of the financial world that is not good. You do need business knowledge. Ask me anything in specific if you wish...
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
You could just stay at home, fake an illness and collect welfare.
In that way you'd still be a dishonest leech but at least you'd only be taking a small amount from those who are either productive or in need.
Since I got my B.S. and M.S. both in computer science, I have no idea what those 'Wall Street jobs' are like,
And you never will. What makes you think you can get hired in the financial industry with zero knowledge or experience? Just the desire to get rich isn't good enough .
Also, in Hong Kong, foreigners don't get a work visa without the employer making a case you have unique skills that a local doesn't. You seem to have none. Your wife can sponsor you for residency, not employment.
Since you're coming to Hong Kong, hang around in the bars in Lan Kwai Fong and try to ingratiate yourself with some suits, maybe you'll get lucky and get someone to give you a junior position. Or you could just deal drugs to them.
I live in HK, and unfortunately the bottom line is that you're going to find this difficult. Finance companies/banks are your best bet for a job by far, especially if you don't speak Chinese, but they are firing at the moment (much of it under the radar) not hiring. A few friends here want to make a similar transition and have not so far achieved success. This is even for techie areas like high frequency trading.
If you have time on your hands while you're here, consider taking a finance course and do check out our HK hackerspace, Dim Sum Labs (www.dimsumlabs.com). You will meet people in the same situation.
Best of luck.
get a job with more dignity and less shame, rent-boy for example.
You should be looking at a job in the PR industry, seeing you have the knack for it. Getting your job seeking ad published on slashdot is not bad.
Well Played, Sir.
That's what the business/financial folks read. It will give you a feel for the terrain that you will be trekking through. It's good to be able to converse in the language of the natives. Just like IT has its specific issue areas, business/financial has them as well.
And it's fun to read and informative, as well.
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
That said, how is your knowledge of statistics, probability theory, game theory and/or real time computing? Finance is basically applied maths with a good dollop of psychology and an understanding of self-promotion. This is as true now as it was in the 14th century. If you want to succeed as a designer of upmarket sports cars, expertise in the design of sparking plugs is possibly not the best starting point.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
Different firms, different departments, can have wildly different needs. Some areas may need hot coding skills, low latency, high performance, networked and quick turnaround on changes. Some may need database work, configuration of 3rd party packages, integration with those packages and these might be turned around more slowly under strict change conditions. Some roles may be reporting based and hence have deadlines that simply cannot be broken because figures need to go to regulators or central banks. Most areas are steeped in red-tape, bureacracy and don't move as fast as they would like to. There's usually a lot of politics between departments and between teams - both internal and external as you'll be dealing with a whole stack of vendors most of the time. You'll be competing with some of the best coders and/or system admins and DBAs that money can buy and you'll need to keep an eye on what your customer wants whilst also making sure you're getting what you want - mainly that means managing your own career as everyone else is busy managing theirs..
It can be a challenge, it can be devisive, it can be difficult, it can be fun. Depends what kind of a person you are and if you are able to thrive there. I have many friends who simply don't like it, have tried it and have walked away. I've been lucky enough to have worked in this world for a while and enjoy it thoroughly as you get to work with some bright people and can make it pretty much what you want if you're good. But yes, it's not for everyone.
In the movie Margin Call, based loosely on the 2007-2008 financial crisis, the character Peter Sullivan, played by Zachary Quinto, was a math guy (like all true computer scientists) that successfully crossed over to the finance world. Unfortunately, he was also the character that figured out what the man he replaced had figured out, which is that the global economy was going to collapse the following day. Are you sure you're up for that kind of thing?
The Admin and the Engineer
From an IT-persons....
Why is it that IT specialists think that they are computer scientists?
These are entirely different disciplines.
The Admin and the Engineer
Learn to drink. Don't turn down a drink. Take people you want to deal with out to drink. Read the air, act appropriately.
Other than that I don't think you need any particular business knowledge. From what I've gathered is that CN/HK/TW business revolves completely about being an awesome drunk.
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. As someone who is in this field, I "look for" and "find" jobs all the time. Our bank has plenty of staff working in Hong Kong. Depending on the OP's skill set, it could be easy or difficult to find work, but it is nowhere near impossible.
If you want to pontificate on the obsolescence of those who "look for" jobs instead of "inventing" them, perhaps you should write a self-help book. Not many of those around.
For those of us who prefer "doing" instead of listening to idiots who pretend to know how to do things better, there is nothing wrong with the old-fashioned way: freshening a CV to emphasize the skills one has, and beating the street. Use agents to get that job. You'll do fine.
I made the jump and it was pretty painless. Read "Options, Futures, and Other Derivatives" by John C Hull to get an idea for the maths required. It's the best book for maths oriented comp-scis to read.
The only problem I've found is this: if you're a software guy at a software company you're doing the "core business", but being a software guy at a finance company you're not. It means that good software is not always the priority.
Also, if you work for a large bank, the failure rate of software projects can be pretty high, and the bureaucracy involved in getting stuff done can be pretty hard sometimes. Pay's good though.
Maybe it's irony, but moderating +5 Informative something like "reading The Economist" is showing something about the current Slashdot, why not the Wall Street Journal right? There is "Wall Street" in the name it must be good to get a finance job!! Yes it's the usual rant.
Anyway, I've been in IT finance for the past 7 years, one of the main european financial institution.
I can code but I'm no math head and have no special social skills (appart from applying good advices you can find from trustful resources that you should already know). I've been expat in 3 different countries and I'm now in Singapore, moved to project manager 4 years ago and soon getting a nice promotion to switch to accounting control. I bet you don't understand how that can be a promotion, I wouldn't have either 7 years ago.
But outside this, if you can code, you know how the various business of retail or investment bank are working and you did bet on the right technology you'll find a job easily. Here it's all Java if you want to have a nice job. Short term, low budget crap is using PHP/Whatever tech being evaluated at the moment.
One warning though, this investment bank is very conservative, that is I'm typing this on a WinXP cousin made for the bank and have no idea if or when we'll switch to something more actual. New technology get about 3 or 4 years approval time, so you either stick with standards (IBM, Oracle) or you can forget about the latest fun technology for your time spent in the office.
Outside this small detail, I obviously love this job and the people here and all over the countries I've been sent to.
And please, prepare properly for interviewing and do you research before contacting me, if you are interested.
Not -1 too political. -1 stereotypical over generalization due to public opinion.
In every sector you have the good guys, a slew of neural folks, and the bad guys.
In terms of media coverage, the good guys may make a 10 minute clip on the news once. The neutral people never really make the news, and the bad guys get a lot of coverage that makes them infamous.
We don't hear about the finance people who help find small businesses and give them capital to grow. We hear about the bad guys who trick people in bad investments because the can get away with it.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
I did the same thing around five years ago. Am still in Hong Kong and still employed (for now), but we've been shedding staff for years and like most financial services companies are probably not going on a hiring spree any time soon. Having said that, I still see jobs posted occasionally.
Track down the recruiters here - they shouldn't be too hard to find. Somebody mentioned Robert Walters which is a good start, maybe also Aston Carter and Chandler Macleod. Recruiters seem to find me on LinkedIn pretty regularly but that's probably because I've built up a network of other people in the industry.
Might be tough also as they generally prefer people with industry experience, and there are plenty of them on the market given recent layoffs, so competition will be fierce. Might be better outside of financial services but I kind of doubt it.
For me - I got a job with a consulting company whose client was an investment bank, so got my foot in the door for a job I probably wouldn't normally have been considered for. Once I had the experience (there's a lot to get used to) I switched to working for the client. Probably difficult to emulate but you never know. I initially got offered a job at a blue chip consulting company at a terrible rate, but ended up at an obscure one at a merely not-so-great rate. It eventually improved but you might want to lower your expectations in advance. At least the tax is low (although if you're American I guess you get screwed on paying US tax anyway) although housing is nuts.
Oh, and Hong Kong and mainland China are like two different countries. You can pretty much ignore any advice which relates to the latter. Hong Kong is a very easy place to live in - I love it. People generally struggle more in the mainland. However, if your wife is in Hong Kong you could consider working in Shenzen, over the border, although might be tough to pull off (and the commute to see eachother would be unpleasant).
I saw your irrelevant and pedantic reply on others as well. Are you an insecure CS major? computer science is IT work. Or are you saying " the scientific and mathematical approach to computation, and specifically to the design of computing machines and processes" is unrelated to information or technology?
You are mistaken. The posts I replied to are irrelevant because they were attempting to answer a question that was not asked. OP is not seeking an IT position. The distinction between IT and computer science is not pedantic, but considerable, and there is merit in understanding the difference. Yes, I am saying, as a systems administrator with 25 years of experience in IT, that what I do, and what my peers do, isn't science or mathematics, like, say, working in finance is. When I work for a bank or an investment firm, I don't say I work in finance... I'm still working in IT. OP's credentials vastly overqualify him for any position in IT, yet historically have shown to be applicable in modeling how investors allocate their assets over time under conditions of certainty and uncertainty, generally known as finance.
The Admin and the Engineer
My wife has worked in the world of banking for 20+ years. All bankers are pretty darn evil. bigger the bank, the bigger the evil. She swore that they had satanic pentagrams on the floors of the executive floor, and wore only red robes up there at the 5/3 bank headquarters.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Ok, before I set off on a rant, I'd like to point out that, unlike most of the posters here, I actually work in the industry you are trying to break into. I have been a software engineer (contract) in the finance industry for about six years now, most of that in London, where I live now. I can tell you it is not a piece of cake to break into the industry, but it is possible, and well worth it to do so. It's difficult to get in for the following reasons:
1) They often "require" business experience. In theory, this means that the will want to see evidence that you've worked in finance before, vis-a-vis a job on your CV for some sort of bank or related institution. Depending on the specific job, they may ask you questions in the techical interview to ascertain your level of experience, knowledge of algorithms and financial math, etc.
2) There have been a number of layoffs in the sector recently, which means there is a bit of a glut in IT staff right now, all of whom have more experience than you.
HOWEVER, you must read this with a grain of salt. As with any endeavor, things are often more subtle in practice. Bear these facts in mind:
1) Many of the people on the bench right now, a.k.a. your competition, were let go for a reason. The financial sector attracts many for the very lucrative salaries, but not all of these people are really that good. Every so often, the banks go through a house-cleaning phase to get rid of the dead wood. Many of these people don't interview well, and are not able to perform well on technical tests. As someone who interviews and hires many developers for our team, I can attest that there are some very poor candidates out there. Many of them got in during the earlier boom, when banks hired anyone and everyone. Some people just weren't cut out for the job, though. I'm constantly being told by recruiters, "There are plenty of candidates, but it's hard to find GOOD ones."
2) Many people are leaving the industry. Frustrated by the recent downturn, byzantine immigration policies, rethinking their life goals, or whatever, thousands of people are turning their back on the finance industry, or even IT in general. Those who stick it out are rewarded.
3) It wouldn't be any easier to transition into another industry, either. It's always difficult jumping onto another ship. The trick is getting that first job. Once you learn the lingo, a bit of the business, and make contacts, it gets much easier.
4) Not all banks require experience. Bearing point 1, above, in mind, I personally know a lot of managers who don't care a bit whether someone has experience in banking or finance. They want good developers first and foremost, and view any business experience as a bonus. Most of my job is just good software development practice, coupled with algorithms and data structures. I rarely need to know anything about how the business works, or I'm capable of learning it in a short time. Most good managers want people who can learn, not those who know it all already. Also bear in mind that finance is not as hard as most people like to make out. ;-)
5) Many banks over-cleaned, and now need to hire people back. Since a lot of folk have left the industry, that can be harder than it seems. Again, despite the glut of developers, there is a dearth of good talent.
6) Permanent jobs are better for first-timers. Many will try to step into the contract world immediately. The reason for this is the contractors running a limited company make far more than our permanent counterparts - as much as 40-50% more when tax savings are factored in. This used to be easy to do from the get-go, and I admit to being one of these folk. However, if you've never worked contract, never been in the finance industry, and/or have less than 10 years' overall experience in I.T., my advice is to start off permanent. Get some good experience, as little as 2-3 years, and then decide if contract is right for you. (Then you can make the big bucks.
Get yourself involved in some Corporate Performance Management stuff (specifically OLAP). This is the perfect intersection of IT and Business/Finance. Think Oracle Hyperion, IBM Cognos TM1, etc. Guys I work with (not me) are currently putting this stuff in at our clients - even the guys without the technical know-how (e.g. they still have finance/technical backgrounds but don't actually build it) have a role in navigating/deciphering and translating whatever bunch of Excel models and disparate systems into Functional Requirements, which get built into Multidimensional structures by the technical guys. I'd start by looking for companies that do this type of stuff - the role name could be anything from Solution Architect to Consultant. Good luck!
We don't hear about the finance people who help find small businesses and give them capital to grow.
You have a strange definition of "give".
Venture capital funders are the corporate version of moneylenders and loan sharks, and just like the mafia guy they don't do this out of the kindness of their heart, but to wring a maximum amount of profit out of someone with nowhere else to go.
The small percentage of companies that succeed doesn't make up for the large percentage that fail because they eventually can't afford to pay the exorbitant returns.
Based on your submitted text, you might want to work on your English skills if you want to work in the business field. English is very common in HK (other languages are definitely an asset). Lack of language skills is generally ignored (and accepted) in IT, but you better be able to write properly in business.
Arguing that most people who call themselves software engineers are actually programmers is a worthwhile discussion, but arguing that the field of software engineering does not exist is no different than saying computer scientists are no different than standard programmers.
I'm not sure that's true, equating one argument to another. But I, personally, am unaware of the distinction between a programmer and a software engineer. If there is a difference, please say so. I first heard the term "software engineering" around 2001. The operating system UNIX was programmed by Dennis Ritchie, amoung others, in 1969. Was that really software engineering? or was it programming?
The Admin and the Engineer