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Immigrants Crucial To Innovation
gollum123 sends this excerpt from the NY Times:
"Arguing against immigration policies that force foreign-born innovators to leave the United States, a new study (PDF) to be released on Tuesday shows that immigrants played a role in more than three out of four patents at the nation's top research universities. Conducted by the Partnership for a New American Economy, a nonprofit group co-founded by Mayor Michael Bloomberg of New York, the study notes that nearly all the patents were in science, technology, engineering and math, the so-called STEM fields that are a crucial driver of job growth. ... The Partnership for a New American Economy released a paper in May saying that other nations were aggressively courting highly skilled citizens who had settled in the United States, urging them to return to their home countries. The partnership supports legislation that would make it easier for foreign-born STEM graduates and entrepreneurs to stay in the United States. ... The study notes that nine out of 10 patents at the University of Illinois system in 2011 had at least one foreign-born inventor. Of those, 64 percent had a foreign inventor who was not yet a professor but rather a student, researcher or postdoctoral fellow, a group more likely to face immigration problems."
... those who already are highly educated and working on something, we benefit at the loss to other countries.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Legal immigration is good, illegal immigration is bad.
I don't have any problems with people going through to correct immigration process to come to the "land of opportunity".
If somebody from another country want to immigrate to the US to better their education or persue better opportunities, the i fully support you as long as you go through the correct process of obtaining a visa and or citizenship.
My beef is with the illegal immigrants that sneak into the country, work under the table and not pay their fair share of taxes, and then get government assistance and benefits at the tax payers expense.
If you want to come to the US, then GREAT! i think that's wonderful!..... Just do it legally and pay your taxes like everybody else.
Any time I parse something like "(Partnership).*(American|(Econom(y|ic)))", I immediately lump it into the right wing propoganda bin.
Universities like non-citizen researchers because, as indentured servants, they cost less.
Not to imply that they aren't doing their fair share of research, but they make up a significant portion of the university research body. Of course they'll be on a significant portion of the results.
It's a nice employment loophole for corporations to get cheap labor instead of having to relocate or off-shore. It's that simple. Only problem is it raises the US unemployment rate.
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Lost in the demagogic hyper-bloviating is the fact that no one is really against legal immigration.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
You mean that the smartest and brightest are not all born in the USA? I'm shocked.
As much grumbling as there is in the tech sector over the HB1 folks (legal status), the average Joe out on the streets is far more resentful of the uneducated migrant workers picking strawberries than they are the post docs with PhDs filling up the universities. The former ones are lowering the wages at the bottom end of the scale for everyone by providing cheap, illegal labor. The smart, educated ones are a minority - and probably speak English pretty well, too.
Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
when number of patents is used as a measure of innovation. It's only a measure of who has the most lawyers.
Only problem is it raises the US unemployment rate.
So you are saying that bringing skilled people into the US will not generate additional economic benefits (which will employ more people)?
Maybe Sergey Brin's parents should not have been allowed to come to the US. Then we wouldn't have Google. Would more programmers be employed?
By your logic, if we kill all the programmers in the US, unemployment will fall to zero! Woo hoo!
I have never once seen an ounce of hostility toward legal immigrants in my life. Is there really that much blurring going on between legal and illegal immigrants? There is a distinct difference, even though it tends to be left out of news reports. I bring this up because illegal immigration is the hot topic of the week and it seems like some slashdotters aren't picking up on the difference either.
Though I have heard that legal immigrants frequently get jerked around by the system. I've heard nothing but sympathy for this when it comes up in conversations with -only- other native born folks. (which means they're not being two-faced about it)
Charisma is the measure of someone's ability to lie with a straight face.
I think the majority of US citizens are very welcoming of legal immigrants that come here and (hopefully) want to become American citizens...and meld into our culture.
We're especially welcoming of legal, documented immigrants that have education and skills.
I think for the most part, the main thing we care about for our immigrants...is to just sign the fucking guest book on they way in....you know?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
It takes 5 years or more for people from certain countries (India/China) to get a greencard after they obtain advanced degrees in the US.
Politicians don't care or talk about this, because these people don't give them enough votes. That's the problem.
The hungry dog gets the bone.
The sort of people dominating STEM in the English-speaking countries are precisely the people we want: hungry, ambitious, motivated and with something to prove. We need more or them, and in any case, if we don't get them, then somebody else will. They contribute to OUR bottom line, or potentially, to somebody else, like China, who hate us and don't share our values or morals.
People who are talented, and prepared to move countries to work hard and make the world a better place, should be honoured as heroes, not vilified or rejected.
shhhhh, that ruins the entire argument! I mean if the media was talking about immigration honestly, instead of lumping people who come here legally and those who break the law and come here illegally is pure pandering, I am surprised in this day and age it even works any more.
no one wants to end immigration to america, our country was built on that concept, We simply want it done correctly. like our ancestors did
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
no one wants to end immigration to america, our country was built on that concept, We simply want it done correctly. like our ancestors did
Kill everyone who's already living here, throw the survivors in reservations, and strip-mine all the resources? 0_o
---
ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
I hate hater haters.
I love hater haters because i hate haters.
You seem to be unaware that the populations of both the EU and the USA are increasing solely because of immigration. Birthrates in the USA and EU are already below replacement rates.
Theoretically, China is also already into permanent population decline, but it's unclear to what extent the One Child Per Family laws are ignored/bypassed....
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
Thousands of dollars and years of your life spent waiting for your number to be called in an INS office.
There is no memory shortage. yes I have heard of XFCE. Go away.
>>>Kill everyone who's already living here
90% of the Indians were killed-off by a bacteria and viruses. The Europeans experienced the Plagues of the 400s and 700s and also the Black Death in the 1400s. The native americans did not have exposure to any of these diseases, until the 1600s and 1700s, and it wiped most of them out.
>>>throw the survivors in reservations
The Supreme Court TRIED to stop that practice by issuing decisions that the Indians did not need to move, but the slave-owning Democrats who were in charge (like Andrew Jackson) decided the Supreme Court can shutup, and moves the Indians anyway.
>>>strip-mine all the resources?
Running-out of resources sounds like a good reason to limit population growth to me (by closing the borders & only allowing legal immigrants). Else come the 2030s we won't be able to feed ourselves or heat our homes, due to scarcity.
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
Your information is correct, up until the end.
Unless you are joking, we force imported people from Africa, we took Irish off the boat to fight in the Civil War for legal status, we have allowed and exploited illegal immigrants for many years (See 1980s/1990s Asian importing of illegals).
Do I wish everyone was legal? Yes. I think they can and are exploited, used as slaves, held for ransom, and paid small and illegal wages because of their status.
To top that all off, if you increase your immigration without control, you will soon find yourself in a situation where food is not highly available, resources are strained, and governments can collapse. There are cases in history where this has happened.
So... if you want to tie it up into a neat little package of "racism" or "prejudice" you are dead wrong and highly uneducated about the issue.
Lost in the demagogic hyper-bloviating is the fact that no one is really against legal immigration.
Lots of people are. That's why the quotas are so drastically small. My step-father rants all the time about Mexicans diluting our superior culture. Why don't we raise the quota of Mexican 100x? I bet we'd have very few illegals then, but that's not what you want is it?
This whole thing about immigration (legal or not) is simply ridiculous.
Like most industrialized nations, the rate of population growth of the US is declining. We would be under replacement rate already were it not for immigration.
The population growth rate is in decline even with the current rate of immigration, which is at historically unprecedented levels (about twice as many as the early 1920's).
Illegals make up a disproportionally large segment of the prison population, but overall, violent crime is way down. (Blacks also have a disproportionally large prison population.)
Thinking that the country cannot sustain the influx, or that these people will somehow reduce our standard of living by requiring more services, or increase the crime rate is simply not supported by the evidence.
Then there's the innovation. Jobs come not from existing businesses, but from starting new businesses, and from new-ish businesses growing large. Immigrants tend to make the most of their opportunities by inventing new things, starting new businesses, and encouraging their children get educated and become successful (source).
Then there's the infrastructure. Illegal immigrants don't contribute to the infrastructure by paying taxes (as much), but at the same time they become a burden on the infrastructure by avoidance. They avoid the hospitals until something becomes an emergency, they don't alert the police to minor situations before they get out of hand, and so on.
Then there's the exploitation. Illegal immigrants have no recourse when their employer abuses them.
It would almost seem, from a completely neutral viewpoint, that just allowing illegals to become citizens would be a win all around.
I'm not entirely sure what the problem is.
Perhaps someone can craft a reasonable sounding "what if" scenario that outlines the sophistry for me? I'm not having any luck identifying any evidence-based reasons.
As opposed to all of those patents in English lit and women's studies, I suppose...
Rob
Replace the CEOs with H1bs and you'll get better results.
Ahh yes, the partisan attacks. Andrew Jackson may have been a democrat, but the party has radically shifted over the ensuing centuries. Bear in mind that Lincoln was a republican.
With that aside...I am a 2nd generation American, my grandparents were from Mexico (legally) and nobody hates illegals more than they do. I'm a pretty hard-core liberal, but when it comes to immigration policy I lean towards pragmatism. I'm a bit tired of the hypocrisy that the rest of the world shows the U.S. The Mexican-Guatemalan border is heavily guarded, and yet Mexico complains about us putting up a (ineffective) wall.
I suppose the crux of my post is, immigration is a helluva lot more complicated than the Fox News / MSNBC talking points would have us believe.
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
Legal: Someone shows up at the border (perhaps after waiting "in line" to emigrate and/or get their paperwork) and meets with an immigration official. They show their ID, get a medical screening for contagious disease, etc ... You know, the sort of stuff that happened at Ellis Island and other locations for many decades.
Wow.. its clear to me that you've never actually gone through the legal immigration process. It is much worse than you paint it out to be. At best, you'll get treating with disrespect, dismisive attitude, rudeness, made to wait entire days in line, etc.. I speak from experience as a US citizen who had to get a visa for his wife.
At worse, well.. there's no end to how bad they can and do treat people when all they are wanting to do is go on with their life.
Even then, legal immigrants or legal visitors to the US get treated like Al Qaeda every by unprofessional TSA types, and rude immigration officials at the border.
You know, just because it is whit people you hate, it doesn't mean you are not a racist.
I tend to agree with your post, the problem is that the reality of the situation isn't so nice and neat. As I've posted before, my grandparents came here legally from Mexico. For the sake of argument let's say that they came illegally. My parents have never been to Mexico, were never taught Spanish, and have zero knowledge of the culture, (in this thought experiment) you would have them deported to a nation that they know nothing about to try and get back to the U.S. legally. I'm sorry but the reality of the matter is that some of these people are proud Americans, the fact that some only recognize patriotism by the letter of the law is just sad.
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
"The Supreme Court TRIED to stop that practice by issuing decisions that the Indians did not need to move, but the slave-owning Democrats who were in charge (like Andrew Jackson) decided the Supreme Court can shutup, and moves the Indians anyway."
And this is an example of why the executive branch cannot and should not decide WHAT laws to to enforce a la cart. Imagine if Eisenhower decided he didn't like Brown v Board of Education (and he didn't) and wouldn't enforce it. These are dangers waters to wade...
Are you really that naive? If people only cared about the legal status of immigrants, then we could pass a bill to legalize every immigrant and please everyone. The fact that conservatives refuse every opportunity to make legal immigration easier proves that it's not the legality at all that's the issue.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
In other words, you only want White, Immigrants, no ones with a little brown in their skin.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
At best, you'll get treating with disrespect, dismisive attitude, rudeness, made to wait entire days in line, etc.
Are you sure you haven't mistaken immigration for the DMV?
---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
It's true that the US policy wasn't to intentionally wipe out all the American Indians (although they certainly had no qualms about doing so), just to take all their stuff and force them further west until they had nothing to live on. This was different from the policy of, say, Christopher Columbus, who just wiped out all the Indians living in Hispaniola, or the French who generally set up trading posts along the rivers and left the Indian societies intact (which was a major reason the Indians tended to side with the French during the 6 Years War).
I am officially gone from
>>>You're really just trying to keep the poor people out.
And?
It's our home. We have just as much right to keep people out, as we do to shoot someone who tries to break into our living rooms. (Of course it you think illegal entrance is a-okay, maybe I'll come put a tent in your living room later tonight. I need a place to sleep. Oh and some free food. Thanks.)
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
What?? Where did you get that from? I happen to disagree with the OP, but it seems you are adding your own prejudice to the reading. Idk about you, but the last 5 of 5 specialist doctors I have seen were either from India or Ghana. Half of my math professors in college were from India and they all taught nothing but the most advanced courses. Projecting some racism perhaps?
I have run the whole gamut (H1-B1 -> green card -> citizenship) and I have never had to wait in line for more than an hour or so. In general, the agents have been polite. The worst are at the airport: of those who work in the offices, some are very pleasant to deal with. When administering the english test to me, the agent was even rather apologetic about it (I am British, so the test wasn't much of a challenge).
Now, I do realize that the INS/DHS do treat some people worse than others, so won't dispute what happened to you, and I have friends that have horror stories, so the abuse clearly happens, but it is not universal.
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
Yes, why not simply steal what you want? Working for it apparently reaps no reward. I know, CILL your landlord.
"The Mexicans are doing the jobs we don't want to do. The Asians are doing the jobs we don't know how to do. Where does that leave us?" - Colbert
Ok, my subject is hyperbole. But anyone who has ever tried to legally immigrate or help a foreign friend try to move to the US knows that it simply isn't possible for the vast majority of people.
I will be brief and concise.
There is no "line." Illegals cannot get in the back of the "line" because the "line" does not exist.
The Green Card lottery is biased against the best countries. Ok, that's not exactly how it works in theory, but that's kind of what happens. Example: In 2012, Japan was awarded 435 visas and Nigera 6,204.
You can't come to the US just because you want to. You can't come regardless of whether or not you have the means to support yourself. You can't come regardless of your education level or English-speaking ability. You can't even come if one of your family members is already here--you must be the direct blood relative of a US citizen, a non-citizen permanent resident sibling is, for instance, not good enough (and becoming a citizen takes decades).
Almost the only way to immigrate (outside of political asylum) is through the arduous and exploitative higher education route. We, the American people, will spend hundreds of millions of our tax dollars to educate foreign students at the best universities in the world. Upon graduation from a prestigious American school with American knowledge, they either must get a job immediately (not easy in these economic times) or get out. Often times, they do get out, and they start those companies which are now out-competing us on the world stage. For instance, I challenge you to find a foreign technology company whose CEO doesn't have a Ph.D. from a California university. Now, assuming that the student is really, really dedicated to staying in the US, there are still substantial roadblocks to them staying here. Firstly, the paperwork for hiring a foreigner is insane. It's insane enough that really the only places that foreign-born U.S. graduates can work are universities, oil companies, or huge technology companies. Any smaller companies can't afford to figure out the legal mess required to figure out the visas, nor can they accept the risk that they'll hire a foreigner and their visa will be denied. The other issue is that if the foreigner doesn't keep their job, they will be deported. They have limited job prospects in the first place due to the visa and legal regulations, and the employers know it. The employers almost universally abuse these people because they know that their only chance to get a green card is to stay employed, the green card process is restarted if they change jobs, and they know that the foreigner wants a green card. So they can overwork and underpay them because they know the foreigner won't quit until they get their green card.
I have tried to figure out legal avenues for some friends in Japan. They have college degrees, speak near-perfect English, and have a passion for America and its culture. Nevertheless, we could not find a route for them to work in the US, so they remain in Japan.
Not all slaves were African. Slavery has existed for all people of all colors since the beginning of history. My great, great, grandparents were white, German, and slaves, for instance--in Auschwitz.
Well, my experience was from an overseas embassy.. not from within the US. Maybe there's a difference there.
More people need to understand this view.
People will do what people want to do. You cannot stop people from doing what they will do, but you can regulate it. If you make it illegal, you will create criminals. Criminals benefit nobody (but the prison owners). You need to regulate it so that it benefits everyone.
People want alcohol. We banned it (the prohibition). People continued to drink, but they did so illegally, and crime flourished.
People want drugs. We banned it (the drug war). People continue to do drugs, but they do so illegally, and crime flourishes.
People want to immigrate to America. We made it nearly impossible over the past 30 years to do so legally. People continue to immigrate, but they do so illegally, and crime flourishes.
The bottom line is that people want to immigrate to America, and you, me, or the government be damned, they will continue to do it. You can make it illegal and create an environment for flourishing organized crime, or we can accept that there will be immigration and it cannot be stopped, and fashion laws and regulations to make that immigration positive for those of us already here (e.g., make legal immigration easy so we can get those people paying taxes).
And this is an example of why the executive branch cannot and should not decide WHAT laws to to enforce a la cart. Imagine if Eisenhower decided he didn't like Brown v Board of Education (and he didn't) and wouldn't enforce it.
Or that if a President decided unilaterally that he'd deport illegal aliens when he was good and ready, duly enacted law be damned. Oh wait....
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
Legal immigrants have passed through a series of filters that ensures they a) have marketable skills that are in demand b) are able to support themselves or have someone to support them until they are established and c) are not criminals.
Making everyone here magically become legal is tantamount to not having immigrating laws at all, which is tantamount to not having borders.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
Well most likely said immigrant was required to do the WORK for the patent, whether or not he was crucial to the viability of it. That's a double edged sword, without them it wouldn't have happened (or as many wouldn't have happened), but by using them we are training them to be innovators. They very shortly WILL be the key innovators, whether or not thye are now.
Unemployed.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
Well no one ever said we were not MILITANT religious fundamentalists.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.