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Immigrants Crucial To Innovation
gollum123 sends this excerpt from the NY Times:
"Arguing against immigration policies that force foreign-born innovators to leave the United States, a new study (PDF) to be released on Tuesday shows that immigrants played a role in more than three out of four patents at the nation's top research universities. Conducted by the Partnership for a New American Economy, a nonprofit group co-founded by Mayor Michael Bloomberg of New York, the study notes that nearly all the patents were in science, technology, engineering and math, the so-called STEM fields that are a crucial driver of job growth. ... The Partnership for a New American Economy released a paper in May saying that other nations were aggressively courting highly skilled citizens who had settled in the United States, urging them to return to their home countries. The partnership supports legislation that would make it easier for foreign-born STEM graduates and entrepreneurs to stay in the United States. ... The study notes that nine out of 10 patents at the University of Illinois system in 2011 had at least one foreign-born inventor. Of those, 64 percent had a foreign inventor who was not yet a professor but rather a student, researcher or postdoctoral fellow, a group more likely to face immigration problems."
haters gonna hate, no matter what.
Yes, I'm left. You have a problem with that?
... those who already are highly educated and working on something, we benefit at the loss to other countries.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Legal immigration is good, illegal immigration is bad.
I don't have any problems with people going through to correct immigration process to come to the "land of opportunity".
If somebody from another country want to immigrate to the US to better their education or persue better opportunities, the i fully support you as long as you go through the correct process of obtaining a visa and or citizenship.
My beef is with the illegal immigrants that sneak into the country, work under the table and not pay their fair share of taxes, and then get government assistance and benefits at the tax payers expense.
If you want to come to the US, then GREAT! i think that's wonderful!..... Just do it legally and pay your taxes like everybody else.
Any time I parse something like "(Partnership).*(American|(Econom(y|ic)))", I immediately lump it into the right wing propoganda bin.
Universities like non-citizen researchers because, as indentured servants, they cost less.
Not to imply that they aren't doing their fair share of research, but they make up a significant portion of the university research body. Of course they'll be on a significant portion of the results.
It's a nice employment loophole for corporations to get cheap labor instead of having to relocate or off-shore. It's that simple. Only problem is it raises the US unemployment rate.
Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
You mean that the smartest and brightest are not all born in the USA? I'm shocked.
As much grumbling as there is in the tech sector over the HB1 folks (legal status), the average Joe out on the streets is far more resentful of the uneducated migrant workers picking strawberries than they are the post docs with PhDs filling up the universities. The former ones are lowering the wages at the bottom end of the scale for everyone by providing cheap, illegal labor. The smart, educated ones are a minority - and probably speak English pretty well, too.
Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
when number of patents is used as a measure of innovation. It's only a measure of who has the most lawyers.
Another way to put it: Patents are not a reasonable proxy for innovation and contribution to the economy. They harm the economy, they do not help it.
Only problem is it raises the US unemployment rate.
So you are saying that bringing skilled people into the US will not generate additional economic benefits (which will employ more people)?
Maybe Sergey Brin's parents should not have been allowed to come to the US. Then we wouldn't have Google. Would more programmers be employed?
By your logic, if we kill all the programmers in the US, unemployment will fall to zero! Woo hoo!
I have never once seen an ounce of hostility toward legal immigrants in my life. Is there really that much blurring going on between legal and illegal immigrants? There is a distinct difference, even though it tends to be left out of news reports. I bring this up because illegal immigration is the hot topic of the week and it seems like some slashdotters aren't picking up on the difference either.
Though I have heard that legal immigrants frequently get jerked around by the system. I've heard nothing but sympathy for this when it comes up in conversations with -only- other native born folks. (which means they're not being two-faced about it)
Charisma is the measure of someone's ability to lie with a straight face.
I think the majority of US citizens are very welcoming of legal immigrants that come here and (hopefully) want to become American citizens...and meld into our culture.
We're especially welcoming of legal, documented immigrants that have education and skills.
I think for the most part, the main thing we care about for our immigrants...is to just sign the fucking guest book on they way in....you know?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
I wish people would stop conflating "immigration" with "illegal immigration". They're not the same - immigrants are the lifeblood and the roots of the US. Illegal immigration is a blight. They're different people. Folks - of all races and nationalities - that come here illegally generally are different than the people who jump through the hoops and do it legally. If they can make it in their own country they don't find the same need to break the law and come to the US.
Regardless, the very fact that they entered the country illegally is sufficient cause to want them to leave.
So that's why 3 out of every 4 patents coming out of research universities are garbage!
Do immigrants play a role in drafting laws and international treaties for Washington by any chance?
It takes 5 years or more for people from certain countries (India/China) to get a greencard after they obtain advanced degrees in the US.
Politicians don't care or talk about this, because these people don't give them enough votes. That's the problem.
The hungry dog gets the bone.
The sort of people dominating STEM in the English-speaking countries are precisely the people we want: hungry, ambitious, motivated and with something to prove. We need more or them, and in any case, if we don't get them, then somebody else will. They contribute to OUR bottom line, or potentially, to somebody else, like China, who hate us and don't share our values or morals.
People who are talented, and prepared to move countries to work hard and make the world a better place, should be honoured as heroes, not vilified or rejected.
that all this study proved was that people given jobs do their jobs. However, the crux of the argument around immigration is *who* is given the job. Let's be honest, there are ONLY a few reasons that a country of 300 million people would ever *need* foreign born researchers: they work cheaper, they were recruited to strategically keep them out of the hands of other countries, our "domestic" educational system is a failure and lastly, self-loathing. All the rest, like this is just justifying after the fact as a way to evade actually stating the reasons I gave above.
Look, I am an immigrant, and I would like to believe I helped rather than hindered the innovation in my neck of the woods in America. (Though no patents, only trade secrets). But we have seen a constant barrage of postings and threads about how broken the patent system is. The speed with which patents are created is exceeding the speed of light. (But still it would not violate the theory of relativity because they carry no information ;-)). Suddenly using the number of patents issued to foreign born scientists and engineers as a yardstick to measure the innovation contribution of my fellow immigrants, just because it supports my point of view, does not seem to be right. If we are really contributing to the innovation scene here, we should find better metrics than merely the number of patents.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
They are countering an argument against H1B abuses that keep wages low on the lower skilled tech jobs by giving examples of how, when H1Bs are used correctly, they work as intended.
The "Partnership for a New American Economy" is lobbying for larger numbers of H1B visa to be issued so they can continue to have cheap foreign labor. I have nothing against H1B workers. In fact I work with more than a few and I enjoy working with them. They are students and scientists working on an international project and this is a legitimate purpose for a H1B. In fact, one of my coworkers just recently became a citizen.
It's the large number of H1B workers coming in for the sole purpose of keeping wages low that irritates me. Of course, corporate minded conservatives will be quick to point out that they are producing jobs in the US but will bury the fact that they filled them with foreign workers. The upside being that the money will spend a short time domestically and some of it will be spent on consumables and rent before the balance is exported home.
Anyway this propaganda piece is making arguments completely out of context of what is being lobbied. For starters, what is the number of innovations versus the number of H1B awarded?
These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
Depends if you consider a US citizen working at a local restaurant that wouldn't exist without the demand generated by all those foreign workers a benefit. Technically yes...
Now what if that US citizen is actually qualified to perform the work of the foreign worker? The US citizen would make even more money and his increased earnings would also generate demand for that local restaurant who could hire a different US citizen. The economic benefit is actually greater.
These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
Yeah. We can get rid of our religious fundamentalists again and our criminals can go down under. Brilliant!
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
what's the difference between legal and illegal migration ?
Legal: Someone shows up at the border (perhaps after waiting "in line" to emigrate and/or get their paperwork) and meets with an immigration official. They show their ID, get a medical screening for contagious disease, etc ... You know, the sort of stuff that happened at Ellis Island and other locations for many decades.
"Despite the island's reputation as an "Island of Tears", the vast majority of immigrants were treated courteously and respectfully, and were free to begin their new lives in America after only a few short hours on Ellis Island. Only two percent of the arriving immigrants were excluded from entry. The two main reasons why an immigrant would be excluded were if a doctor diagnosed that the immigrant had a contagious disease that would endanger the public health or if a legal inspector thought the immigrant was likely to become a public charge or an illegal contract laborer. "
http://www.ellisisland.org/genealogy/ellis_island_history.asp
It sounds like they are arguing to change a broadly applied visa policy to support the one-in-a-million foreign-born propeller-head who actually produces a patent. I am skeptical.
Proverbs 21:19
This whole thing about immigration (legal or not) is simply ridiculous.
Like most industrialized nations, the rate of population growth of the US is declining. We would be under replacement rate already were it not for immigration.
The population growth rate is in decline even with the current rate of immigration, which is at historically unprecedented levels (about twice as many as the early 1920's).
Illegals make up a disproportionally large segment of the prison population, but overall, violent crime is way down. (Blacks also have a disproportionally large prison population.)
Thinking that the country cannot sustain the influx, or that these people will somehow reduce our standard of living by requiring more services, or increase the crime rate is simply not supported by the evidence.
Then there's the innovation. Jobs come not from existing businesses, but from starting new businesses, and from new-ish businesses growing large. Immigrants tend to make the most of their opportunities by inventing new things, starting new businesses, and encouraging their children get educated and become successful (source).
Then there's the infrastructure. Illegal immigrants don't contribute to the infrastructure by paying taxes (as much), but at the same time they become a burden on the infrastructure by avoidance. They avoid the hospitals until something becomes an emergency, they don't alert the police to minor situations before they get out of hand, and so on.
Then there's the exploitation. Illegal immigrants have no recourse when their employer abuses them.
It would almost seem, from a completely neutral viewpoint, that just allowing illegals to become citizens would be a win all around.
I'm not entirely sure what the problem is.
Perhaps someone can craft a reasonable sounding "what if" scenario that outlines the sophistry for me? I'm not having any luck identifying any evidence-based reasons.
As opposed to all of those patents in English lit and women's studies, I suppose...
Rob
Low-rent H1-B scum, absolutely not. Kick the fuckers out.
We really have to let people understand that ANYONE that's willing to immigrate, illegal, legal, H1-B, or whatever, is already miles above the average American citizen.
There really is no difference between any of these immigrants. You want these people in your country. You want them over the average American citizen.
Immigrants, illegal or legal, work harder than the average citizen. Their crime rates are lower than the average citizen. When an illegal moves into your neighborhood, the crime rate goes down. Illegals perform the work that Americans never want to perform, such as picking strawberries or cleaning toilets. In fact, if an American actually does those jobs, that's an indication of a failure in the system: we spend tens of thousands of tax dollars to educate an American in the public school system, and they end up cleaning toilets? THAT'S a failure.
Really, the only demographic in America that are concerned about illegal immigrants are uneducated libertarian-leaning whites. If their social status is threatened by illegals, then perhaps we should reconsider their citizenship in the first place. You really don't deserve anything more than an illegal, just because you're BORN here. All your citizenship rights should be put on hold until you actually earn your citizenship by graduating college. Unfortunately, you're not special, no matter what your conservative right-wing parents told you. Sorry to break it to you. I really don't feel like I should pay my tax dollars to support you instead of some hard working illegal that deserves more of my tax dollars.
This is the is the same fuckwit demographic that buys guns (worthless garbage), thinks advertising is bad (you guys have no idea how many people buy magazines and newspapers BECAUSE of the advertising), hates socialism (they should move to Somalia if libertarians hate America so much) and generally believe in their own false superiority... you know, your typical Slashdot reader.
Seriously, you libertarians should just stop being libertarian. Drop it like a bad habit. It's silly, childish thinking, with too much idealism and 'belief', instead of any real-world value. You libertarians haven't thought your cunning plan all the way through. You should know why paying taxes to benefit lazy people actually ends up benefitting you. You need to stop looking at the immediate effect of your incorrect beliefs, and understand that long-term effects happen due to a far more complex system than what children can understand.
BTW, I don't understand why people still call it "illegal" immigration. There actually is no crime for overstaying your visa, which is what the vast majority of illegals do. It's still only a civil violation.
Another BTW, the exact opposite of the libertarian white male uneducated demographic is the Jewish female. You guys are pretty much the opposite of each other.
Replace the CEOs with H1bs and you'll get better results.
maybe where you are, in orange county NY this is still the norm (yes, all the way up in NY)
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
exactly.
Everyone in the loop knows that the SSN is fake.
Leftists?
I don't really see any of the corporates wanting anything done about illegal immigration. Bush II was pretty hep on keeping a good supply of "slave" labor in for the southern states.
But it's OK for non contributing students to step in front of AC's
First, let me say that I have no problem with immigrants or doubt that they make a huge contribution to... everything.
That said, they're counting any situation where immigrants "played a role"... so if the project had 50 people in it and one of the junior members was an immigrant, would this thing have counted that into their vague as hell statistics?
See, these are the worst sort of stats. You can make these say anything depending on how you play with the numbers.
I'm to the point now where I don't even want to see the conclusions of a statistical study any more. I don't trust it. I want the the data and literal methodology. Short of that... it's just too easy to make stuff up.
This has nothing what so ever to do with the topic at hand. I don't really care. it's just a comment on how statistics are used in modern journalism. It too often lets journalists slip editorials into the news column under the cloak of "a statistical study." It's intellectually dishonest, sloppy, and/or ignorant.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
You should take a look at the Affirmative Action Bake Sale. Like universities it makes it easier for immigrants to "enter" the market by making them only score half as much as whites. Just as they only need to score 750 on SATs to get into college (while whites must score 1000), they only have to pay $1.50 to get a muffin (while whitey must pay $2). Seems fair to me...... after all whites have an "unfair advantage" according to a new campaign run my the Democrats.
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-09-25/news/30231563_1_bake-sale-student-newspaper-republican-group
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
There has been at least one bill in recent years--HR 3012--which would have made legal immigration easier for highly skilled workers, and which was passed with an overwhelming majority in the House (389/15), only to be placed on hold indefinitely by Sen. Chuck Grassley in the Senate. The way I see it, 389 votes in favor of such reform suggests that the majority of Americans support such a move, but there seem to be many (largely) political hurdles to overcome before anything concrete actually gets done about it.
of the local home depot are actually wealthy venture capitalists just waiting for their IPO. You should probably quit while you are behind instead of continuing to dig.
In other words, you only want White, Immigrants, no ones with a little brown in their skin.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Bad logic. Economic benefits don't equal more employed people. The corporate wish list is, in order of preference:
1) Don't hire people.
2) Hire people in a cheap backwards country.
3) Hire people in a cheap backwards state.
4) Hire where they really have to pay a real wage.
What you stated is trickle down economics and, if it ever was valid, is totally invalid in the age of the Internet where most corporations can hire wherever the hell they want.
When considering the number and quality of innovations there is an unbridgable gap between contributions of immigrants from countries like Germany or Switzerland and immigrants from countries like Guatemala or Zimbabwe.
http://i.cubeupload.com/T6cyLu.png
Diversity within a culture allows for more, and usually better, ADAPTATION. That's what societal, enterprise, and individual sustainability is really all about - i.e. it's about adaptation.
That said, this is a complex topic. We are not generating enough indigenous intellectual diversity because our education system needs a rehaul, or a completely new re-start. This probably won't happen, so we import the necessary diversity. This is one of America's strengths.
All that aside, I think it's abominable that way corporate leaders and our policy makers abuse the H1-B and other student and work visa programs. Too many highly skilled and innovative American workers are washed out of their careers, replaced by lower-priced, imported labor. There should be much more Congressional oversight about this, but that won't happen as long as private money (in the way of political donations) pollutes policy makers, and the policies they put forward.
Before the 1950's Europeans (I assume like your ancestors) made up the majority of immigrants to the United States. Immigrant != "non-white", and immigration certainly doesn't have anything to do with "affirmative action". The whole point of the article is that many of the grad students and PhDs publishing the papers and patents at US universities include many immigrants (who are in the US legally, and probably beat your SAT score by a large margin).
The mark of a real racist is one who doesn't even do it on purpose, I guess... congrats.
So last night, after the SB1070 supreme court decision was announced, the local Phoenix news is carrying coverage of various people protesting the outcome. They decide to interview some guy that is willing to admit that he's here illegally. Looked hispanic...must have been some sort of strange coincidence...but I digress. So "Mr. X" goes on to say how upset he is with the ruling. Him and his family have been here illegally for 12 years he says. He goes on to say that he works hard, stays out of trouble, drives safely. Wait a minute...drives safely??? How does this guy get a drivers licence without a SSN or proper immigration papers? Or for that matter insurance? The answer of course is that he doesn't. He drives without a license (breaking the law...again), and without insurance (breaking the law...yet again). What happens if Mr. X rear ends someone and puts them in the hospital with serious injuries? Who pays the hospital bill? Not Mr. X, he has no insurance and probably little else in the way of assets. So the family of the victim gets stuck with the hospital bill, which could potentially bankrupt them. This is one of the things that gets lost in the highly emotional immigration debates. There are real consequences to people being here illegally.
The Onion had a video story about that scenario a few years ago. Best story IMHO to date from the Onion. After the CEO gets replaced by an illegal immigrant who was a former landscaper willing to work for 40% less than CEO (only 12 million dollars per year lol) he bemoans his new misfortune by asking "Do you know what it's like to be forced to spend all summer in your winter home!?" Classic.
But immigrants old jobs other than as programmers in the US. Maybe if we killed EVERYONE in the US, unemployment will fall to zero....
...wait a second.
Support the EFF and Creative Commons. The war is coming, and they're supporting you...
What?? Where did you get that from? I happen to disagree with the OP, but it seems you are adding your own prejudice to the reading. Idk about you, but the last 5 of 5 specialist doctors I have seen were either from India or Ghana. Half of my math professors in college were from India and they all taught nothing but the most advanced courses. Projecting some racism perhaps?
Yeah, the reason you're unemployable is totally because of all the brown people, not because you're an insufferable shithead.
Sincerely,
- Everyone else in technology.
P.S. We'd have written a longer reply, but between our jobs and all of the recruiters harassing us we just don't have that much free time. I'm sure you understand.
"The reason foreign students are important to American higher education is that they are cheap, since they are very often paid by foreign governments. Everyone in every American math and physics department knows this."
Although the rest of your post is total crap, this part is very, very true. After having worked in a University for three decades, I was strongly encouraged to take an early retirement; while I pondered this while burning off my vacation leave, I was already being replaced. h1b replaced. My replacement, a nice enough fellow, had been working on his paperwork for over a year, that is, several months before my strongly encouraged invitation. They got a Post-Doc with no real experience, but between the poor pay and minimal benefits that he received, our group had an extra $50K to spend on toys.
Oh, before jumping over me for nativist grumbling, I too am an immigrant; (But I really had little choice in the matter, being just under two years old at the time.)
OK, that being over, another group had worked to get a Staff Scientist in on an h1b at the same time. And he was the best. I doubt that there are five other people in the _World_ with his qualities in his chosen field. It was a miserable waiting time for him and his family, but he made it; Employed in a permanent position, with generous pay and full benefits.
It's not the system, it's the people who take advantage of the system, Employers and Employees both. h1b actually is badly misused, but it _can_ serve a purpose. But for every brilliant, valued Scientist, there are probably a thousand Code Monkeys brought in to work cheaply, and then just made to quietly go away when they are used up.
Patents are bad and should be gotten rid of.
Immigrants are responsible for 75% of patents in the US.
Toughening on immigration will help cut up to 75% of patent applications.
"Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
In other words, you only want White, Immigrants, no ones with a little brown in their skin.
Think you need to see the countries of origin on page 9
/.
But the study is still logically wrong. It concludes "immigrants name on patents = immigrants needed for patents". Faulty logic. Just because there is an immigrants name on a patent, along with a dozen other names, does not mean that patent would not exist without immigrants. I could do the same study, but conclude that non-immigrants are crucial for patents, because 95% of the 2011 US patents had at least one non-immigrant inventor listed.
Besides study is biased, put out by pro-immigration group: " The Partnership for a New American Economy.... will pursue Congress and the White House to enact legislation which will create "a path to legal status for all undocumented immigrants now in the United States".[2] The partnership will seek to influence "by publishing studies, conducting polls, convening forums, and sponsoring public education campaigns".[1]"
So this is, basically, SPAM, on the front page of
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
"The Mexicans are doing the jobs we don't want to do. The Asians are doing the jobs we don't know how to do. Where does that leave us?" - Colbert
Ok, my subject is hyperbole. But anyone who has ever tried to legally immigrate or help a foreign friend try to move to the US knows that it simply isn't possible for the vast majority of people.
I will be brief and concise.
There is no "line." Illegals cannot get in the back of the "line" because the "line" does not exist.
The Green Card lottery is biased against the best countries. Ok, that's not exactly how it works in theory, but that's kind of what happens. Example: In 2012, Japan was awarded 435 visas and Nigera 6,204.
You can't come to the US just because you want to. You can't come regardless of whether or not you have the means to support yourself. You can't come regardless of your education level or English-speaking ability. You can't even come if one of your family members is already here--you must be the direct blood relative of a US citizen, a non-citizen permanent resident sibling is, for instance, not good enough (and becoming a citizen takes decades).
Almost the only way to immigrate (outside of political asylum) is through the arduous and exploitative higher education route. We, the American people, will spend hundreds of millions of our tax dollars to educate foreign students at the best universities in the world. Upon graduation from a prestigious American school with American knowledge, they either must get a job immediately (not easy in these economic times) or get out. Often times, they do get out, and they start those companies which are now out-competing us on the world stage. For instance, I challenge you to find a foreign technology company whose CEO doesn't have a Ph.D. from a California university. Now, assuming that the student is really, really dedicated to staying in the US, there are still substantial roadblocks to them staying here. Firstly, the paperwork for hiring a foreigner is insane. It's insane enough that really the only places that foreign-born U.S. graduates can work are universities, oil companies, or huge technology companies. Any smaller companies can't afford to figure out the legal mess required to figure out the visas, nor can they accept the risk that they'll hire a foreigner and their visa will be denied. The other issue is that if the foreigner doesn't keep their job, they will be deported. They have limited job prospects in the first place due to the visa and legal regulations, and the employers know it. The employers almost universally abuse these people because they know that their only chance to get a green card is to stay employed, the green card process is restarted if they change jobs, and they know that the foreigner wants a green card. So they can overwork and underpay them because they know the foreigner won't quit until they get their green card.
I have tried to figure out legal avenues for some friends in Japan. They have college degrees, speak near-perfect English, and have a passion for America and its culture. Nevertheless, we could not find a route for them to work in the US, so they remain in Japan.
Not all slaves were African. Slavery has existed for all people of all colors since the beginning of history. My great, great, grandparents were white, German, and slaves, for instance--in Auschwitz.
>>>The mark of a real racist is one who doesn't even do it on purpose, I guess... congrats.
Thanks for the insult. My post was entirely AGAINST racism & in favor of equality (everyone should be treated identical when it comes to college entry). I am amazed that you would defend a system that would force white people to score 133% higher than others. I guess you're trying to keep white students out. I guess a "real racist is one who doesn't even do it on purpose".
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
not ALL white people owned slaves in the south either
and I like how you claim that ALL white people, if given the chance would own slaves when there are a dozen other ways you could have said that without showing your own racism towards white people
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
I agree that employers are accomplices. The BoD for Tyson chicken should all be in jail, along with Huckabee for the fact that Rogers, AR. exist.
You should come down to Chula Vista, CA. They had to move the SSA office because the 400-800 non-English speaking people that visited daily for benefits overwhelmed the building's occupancy and the fire marshal shut it down and made them move.
Not all slaves were African. Slavery has existed for all people of all colors since the beginning of history. My great, great, grandparents were white, German, and slaves, for instance--in Auschwitz.
Further, slavery was on every continent, for every race, and never really went away. There's an active slave trade between Africa and Arabia, and what are prisons but periods of slavery? The state owns you, and puts you to work "paying off your debt to society". Sounds a lot like indentured servitude.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
This parent article is not making a sound argument for immigration. This is an argument for better US education including free college to develop our own talent. Secondly, if these immigrants are so talented, they need to stay in their often poor countries and develop their patents and innovations there, and I do agree that the international community should provide some aid for making that happen. This will add to their native countries success which they desperately need. We need to stop the brain drain as much as we need to stop flooding countries like the US with foreigners and focus on developing our own people.
I am sick and tired of hearing the same old lies and propoganda in support of immigration. The fact is i cannot think of a good reason for immigration. The above alternatives are far better and will have better effects on improving countries as good places to live for their people.
Southern and Eastern Europeans were generally not considered to be "white". Hispanics will be considered to be white given another hundred years, IF we still use such silly concepts to divide ourselves against one another.
40% of the PhDs working in the US are immigrants.
End of story.
You also forgot to mention the brain drain which severely damages the country they come from. I am opposed to immigration since it is bad for the country they leave and bad for the one they come to. I support developmental programs in third world countries which help the people of those countries innovate and add to their own countries success and resources. I also think we need to stop immigration to preserve the unique populations and cultures of different countries as well. This involves improving economic conditions in all regions of the world through more development of the economies in third world countries.
Now what if that US citizen is actually qualified to perform the work of the foreign worker? The US citizen would make even more money and his increased earnings would also generate demand for that local restaurant who could hire a different US citizen. The economic benefit is actually greater.
So imagine if the foreign worker was going to work for free. Or perhaps a very advanced robot. And the company could now make things for less, and probably split that benefit between lower costs for the customers and higher profits for shareholders. Would that be bad?
Or what if that foreign worker just works outside the United States (for foreign companies) and competes with American workers anyway?
Aside from the fact that American society does not promote academic achievement and never has, there is something that you are missing very badly.
The birthrate among US Citizens is below the replacement rate.
No matter what you do with education you will never ever be able to replace the immigrant talent that comes to the US.
Think of all the advanced technologies we can learn from them (that is if they don't kill us). Unfortunately with this anti-alien attitude the country is taking i.e. Arizona, lots of luck of them landing in USA.
mfwright@batnet.com
Well most likely said immigrant was required to do the WORK for the patent, whether or not he was crucial to the viability of it. That's a double edged sword, without them it wouldn't have happened (or as many wouldn't have happened), but by using them we are training them to be innovators. They very shortly WILL be the key innovators, whether or not thye are now.
It is obvious to me that the left, which likes to encourage illegal immigration, is essentially in favor of legalized slavery.
A illegal immigrant in this country is no more than a indentured slave. Employers can treat them in any fashion they wish including by threat.
There is only one solution to the problem and that is to lock up anyone hiring a illegal worker and throw away the key.
I am not expecting anyone to fix the problem though as both parties are so corrupt to the core it will never happen.
Got Code?
What I find awesome is the way that when ever there is a bunch of stuff going on about Illegal Immigrants we get a crap load of information from many sources how good immigration is for the country.
Immigrants are what made the US a powerhouse in the world. Immigrants fleeing oppression looking to become a part of a nation built on freedoms.
Immigrants that came with nothing and received nothing. Immigrants that loved their new country and fought to become Americans.
All immigrants like those are welcome to apply and work to get full citizenship in the US. I for one encourage them and welcome them.
You can not though compare them to the people who sneak here and pop out babies and look for welfare with forms printed in their native language.
These are not the people that strengthen a country.
Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
To describe a phenomena, without bothering to investigate cause(s), implications, possible or even likely outcomes, etc. is ignorant. To make policy decisions on such information is mentally deficient. So why are so many foreign nationals cranking out vital University Patents? Wouldn't perhaps be related to the fact that so many universities in the U.S. are strongly favoring foreign students because they can charge twice the tuition and they're great for the bottom line? Could it possibly have something to do with the disgrace that Public Education in this country is today, I mean Louisiana is teaching kids that the Loch Ness Monster proves that Jesus is your God and savior and that the Flintstones was a documentary. Is it even possible that its an indication that we've been so screwing the middle class for so long, combined with cutting educational resources into virtual nonexistence, that the average person can no longer afford to attend a decent engineering or technical school, leaving only foreign students who are in the top percent of a percent from their large countries and being supported by sometimes entire villages to fill the ranks of said institution of higher learning.
Don't get me wrong, I applaud the plucky lad from one of the eastern slums of Mumbai, getting all the way to an American University on grit and intelligence. He's earned his right to be here. Its just that we've abandoned our own children on the side of the road and if there's a disproportionate number of emigres cranking out useful inventions its because we've failed our own. This isn't a call for letting more kids from China and India and the Africa into our schools (and I'm fine with that too.) This is a call for our legislators to pull their collective heads out of their posteriors and begin investing in our own future while we still have one worth getting to.
What studies? That's like me saying "scientists say giving realxmp £100 is good for your health", which is true, a scientist did say it, me. A study is only as good as the person who wrote it and the data they obtained.
If you want to worry about people taking your jobs, worry about China, India and Brazil. It isn't immigrants taking your jobs, it's the jobs themselves emigrating!
Another way to read it would be that Americans are simply no longer competitive, due to a culture that promotes hostility towards intellectuals and secular values; which has done nothing over the last 50 years to make the educational standards competitive. Quite the contrary. Most college course material in the US these days is written at a third grade reading level.
Is it any wonder that foreigners, from countries where they do have reasonable primary education standards do well? Just seems kind of obvious.
I'm not saying we don't need these people. At least, right now. But I think the answer is bring back competitive educational standards, and change the culture of ignorance that fears education and educated people. If we can't do that, we're done.
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Maybe if we killed EVERYONE in the US, unemployment will fall to zero....
Nah, it would be a NaN then.
Unemployed.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
Your over-generalizations are barely worth arguing, and standardized testing is so biased to social and economic classes that there are plenty of valid reasons they are not the end all of admissions.
And yeah, brilliant comeback, I'm racist against white people. Or maybe I'm white and got a very high score on my SAT, but I am really thankful I got to go somewhere that looks at background, extra-curriculars, effort, and motivation as well as a test score. It makes *everyone* more well rounded and a better person for the experience. I'm sorry you apparently had such a bad experience in college that you now have a warped viewpoint that considers "immigrants" synonymous with affirmative action.
Besides, 750 -> 1000 = 33%, not 133%. I bet even the "750's" got that one right.
Eh, Southern and Eastern European immigrants (Italians, Poles, Greeks, Slavs, Russians, etc) weren't discriminated for the color of their skin as much as their non-Protestant religions and non-Germanic languages.
While we are finally starting to get past that discrimination (Republican nominee is a Mormon?!) go try to convince most African Americans that skin color becomes irrelevant after your family has lived in the US for more than a hundred years...
... or is it the other way around ?
There have been a lot of hues and cries about immigrants who are unfit for America - that they come here to suck up welfare, steal jobs, committing crime, bad influence all around, and so on ....
Or, is it the other way around ?
America used to be America the Beautiful
America used to be The Land of Plenty
America used to be Heaven On Earth
America used to be THE place all immigrants want to go to - no matter if that immigrant was from Europe or Africa or Latin America or Asia - the United States of America, with its Statue of Liberty, is _the_ place to be
But nowadays ... America is no longer the in place for many
Used to be that talents from all corners of the world flock to America - but - now, talents from America are flocking OUT.
When I was in America, the immigrants that I knew used to tell me that they planned to stay in America forever
But now ... I meet them in Africa, in China, in India, in Brazil, in Korea ...
And they are telling me a different story - that America is no longer the dream place - that the crime rate is getting intolerable, that their homeland provide them with more choices for their career, and so on ...
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
As a foreigner now based in the US, I'm astonished at the lack of talent US techies have compared to imports.
I'm also utterly impressed at the innovation from US business people. Totally ahead of the curve.
Could it be that US businessmen are mostly responsible for the good reputation of US techies, who have been riding coat tails since Mr. Moore and Mr. Woz?
I'm fully aware of how these comments will sit here at /., but I do believe it needs to be asked
>
You can not though compare them to the people who sneak here and pop out babies and look for welfare with forms printed in their native language.
These are not the people that strengthen a country.
No, but the babies probably are.
The babies of the babies maybe. For the most part the best illegal aliens do not care much for education. So their children have incredibly high drop out rates. After a generation or three they probably americanize a bit and get moving in the right direction.
Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
Nice. You called me a racist, and then you want to act all innocent of the crime. NOTHING I said in my original post deserved your accusation that I hate black people. That was totally uncalled for.
>>>Besides, 750 -> 1000 = 33%, not 133%
Terrible math. 33% of 750 is 247.5
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
Blacks are a special case, as resentment has been maintained and stirred up against them through the use of government force, first against integration (forced separation, laws against intermarriage), then against whites with affirmative action. This has created a festering resentment, and makes it difficult to judge an individual by their own merits. WIth the abolition of such laws, and a generation or two of non-coerced integration, we will be on to discriminating against the next group of immigrants or new religion.
>>>And I like how you used "niggardly", considering how there's a dozen other, perfectly cromulent, words you could have used that don't sound racist.
Well to quote the Head of the NAACP (a black man in case you're dense): "It's a sad day when we must censor ourselves because of the ignorance of others. I suspect they are acting niggardly in their judgment," and "They should spend some money on dictionaries."
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
>that immigrants played a role in more than three out of four patents at the nation's top research universities
Considering that all of us are immigrants except the indians,
and that they would never be the ones to invent anything for technology, or science, or mankind as a whole.....
makes this story redundant....sort of like my post actually.....come to think of it.
Thats what EB-1 and EB-2 green card categories are for. A green card where you can apply for permanent residency based on your own achievements. If you are writing research papers or filing patents left, right and center it's a good category as you don't need employer sponsorship.
Many migrants lack https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Social_mobility in their native countries and hence move to USA.
http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/news/releases/respect-from-friends-matters-more-than-money-for-happiness-in-life.html
Casteism