Senator Pushes For Tougher H-1B Enforcement

mk1004 writes "Computerworld says that the industry lobbying group TechNet is calling on Congress to eliminate the per-country cap on H-1B workers. Last year a bill was passed in the house, 389-to-15, to remove the cap. Grassley put a hold on the bill in the Senate, indicating that he would be willing to lift the cap if companies faced an annual audit. The US currently allows 140K H-1B workers, but allows only 7% of those to come from any one country."

Comments

I'm for it.

[PerlPunk]

It would be a big incentive to attraact the best of the best from around the world to the United States. It would go hand-in-hand with smart immigration policies that tried to retain that talent.

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's wonderful until the job market is flooded with 140k h1b workers working for absurdly low wages, soaking up the few jobs there are in your particular field, sending the bulk of what they do earn home instead of spending it here.

I'm sure corporate america loves the idea though. Can't get the price of capable labor down low enough? Bring in people that will live 6 to an apartment and work cheaper than anyone with those old, outdated ideas of a family, home and a lawn to mow!

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's wonderful until the job market is flooded with 140k h1b workers working for absurdly low wages

And who are these H1B workers on absurdly low wages? It costs Microsoft 30% more to hire foreigners on H1Bs because there aren't enough Americans graduating with master's and PhDs in STEM fields. MSFT would gladly hire Americans to do these jobs, if they could. I'm quite confident this generalizes to other tech companies.

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not sure where you've worked, but I've yet to find any H1Bs in tech living anything like you're describing. Okay, so during his (and my) first year at my old job, my H1B co-worker and I rented a four bedroom apartment together. So that's kind of close, although he later married and bought a house. It only has a small lawn, so he mostly has to stick to around the deck or BBQ and sadly look over Puget Sound, thinking of how unfortunate he is.
 
The other H1Bs included the guy with the brand new 3-series living in a fancy glass and steel downtown condo, and the guy with the Range Rover who had restrained but expensive tastes. The other H1B in my group was rather stoic so perhaps he lived with 5 other H1Bs in an apartment, although it'd be weird since his salary was well into six figures and a decent studio in the most expensive parts of the city were ~$1000/month with parking.
 
Yes, H1Bs can be paid on the low end of the scale since they're at a major disadvantage if they're unhappy with their job. But it's not a huge difference, it's just that corporations would be happy to sell out their own country for a penny. In fact, because I went front-end and my ex-roommate went server-side, he was making more than me within 3-4 years on the job.
 
That said, there is very little need for H1Bs in terms of supply and demand as was pointed out in this recently posted transcript, and it'd be nice if lawmakers and other people involved in immigration policy recognized this fact.

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

smart immigration policies

The h-1b isn't a smart immigration policy. It's a tool to drive down US worker wages by making immigrants your bitch.

This isn't a "they tewk er jerbs" thing, either. Some of the crap the h-1bs go through... the immigrants deserve better, too.

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem isn't as to whether or not there are good people being brought over as H-1Bs, it's that companies are using H-1Bs over qualified American citizens, when plenty are available and want to work. There should be a requirement that a company attempt exhaustively to find an American to fill the position, and then with proof, put their efforts in public record so everyone can see just how diligent they were, as well as the credentials of the H-1B hired for the position. This way, people who applied and were as qualified as the H-1B who gets the position can come forward and demonstrate potential H-1B fraud. Just toss a severe penalty on it and the problem goes away. Companies should be accountable for their hiring practices when they have a resource that is so potentially disruptive to America.

Re:I'm for it.

[Thanshin]

It would be a big incentive to attraact the best of the best from around the world to the United States. It would go hand-in-hand with smart immigration policies that tried to retain that talent.

The problem is that a fraction of what the immigrant earns is sent out of the country. Thus only part of the benefit to the corporation stays.

Deeper still, the problem is that the corporation's interests aren't aligned with the country, nor has it any pressure to make them so.

Deeper still, the problem is that the corporation is just a product of the economical system. Society cannot specify how to create businesses following a certain set of rules and then claim that the resulting corporation is bad.

A solution would be to have the state control the corporate behaviours that harm the country, however that doesn't work because the state is not the country, just a subset of individuals who are vulnerable to corporation power, which was given by the rules decided by society.

A solution to that would be society removing that power from the corporation, but the corporation was made following rules that society itself imposed, so its the rules that would have to be changed first.

And we don't know what other set of rules works better than the current one, nor whether the new corporate-like entity crerated by them would have even stronger power over the state.

Re:I'm for it.

[sjames]

They can, there are plenty of people with the qualifications they need. It's just that they would just have to pay more or offer better working conditions. The prospect of jobs that pay well and offer good working conditions would also cause more people to get their degree in a STEM field. The current push down on wages and into H1-B and outsourcing is why less students are choosing that career.

So, MS has to spend 30% more to hire an H1B than they would if there was a glut in the employee market? So how much less do they cost compared to the actual market rate under the actual conditions of supply?

Re:I'm for it.

[sjames]

So give them a green card so their employer can't hold their status hostage.

Re:I'm for it.

[artor3]

And who are these H1B workers on absurdly low wages? It costs Microsoft 30% more to hire foreigners on H1Bs because there aren't enough Americans graduating with master's and PhDs in STEM fields. MSFT would gladly hire Americans to do these jobs, if they could.

According to who, Microsoft? Gee, I can't think of any reason they might want to lie about this.

H1B workers are easily abused because changing jobs is far more difficult. The upfront costs of hiring them may be higher, but they end up working longer hours for less pay. That is why Microsoft, along with all the other tech giants, go before Congress every year and lie and beg.

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

They come to the US and usually become citizens. So overall it is a net gain in that you have added intelligent citizens without having to pay for their education or upbringing.

Re:I'm for it.

[jestsaying]

Does the bill audit for direct vs body shoppers?

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

They hire H1-Bs as engineers. Starting salary is about $75k (or was, 5 years ago). How does that compare?

Disclaimer: I work for MS, but they don't pay me to post here. That would be stupid.

Re:I'm for it.

[sjames]

The current median is 85K in that area. Keep in mind that figure will be distorted low due to cheap H1-B labor.

According to glassdoor, their current offerings are a bit on the low side compared to google, amazon, and similar in that area.

It looks like they would have a LOT less trouble hiring qualified people if they would go 5-10k higher. So, big surprise, lowball offer = a problem finding takers.

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course, you are correct in that Microsoft and the other big IT companies take maximum advantage of the H1B program to hire top-tier engineering talent.

But you've never seen the contracting company which operates a slum apartment building in Fremont full of imported H1B web coderz. Nor the business who brings in rich, well-connected H1B Brits to serve in sales and administrative roles. ("why not? there's no enforcement") The program might be well-intentioned, but it is being massively exploited.

Re:I'm for it.

[Cryacin]

No, it's just a skills shortage. We can't find anyone who's willing to work for $75kpa, who does exactly what we want them to do, but for someone else, with 10 years of experience in a language/product that's only been around for 5. That's why we need to hire people from overseas who can tell HR that they have 10 years of experience, and who will be willing to work for $70 kpa. It's simple really, and for the good of the nation.

That, or companies could actually take on university graduates like they used to do, train them, treat them well, and have some high class permanents who know what they're doing. Oh wait, that's a long term strategy. And long term's no good because in the long term we're all dead anyway.

Re:I'm for it.

[devleopard]

Most H1-Bs I know of work for standard wages, or close to.

Even if they work for less, how is this worse than fresh American college grads working for peanuts in the Valley for a chance at the startup lottery?

Re:I'm for it.

[Rei]

If they pay slave wages for H1B workers ("slum apartment building in Fremont full of imported H1B web coderz"), they're breaking the law. H1B workers legally must be paid within a certain percent of the average prevailing wage for an equivalent position in your area. And it would be a strange argument indeed to criticize a law using as your example people who aren't following it. If your problem is with enforcement, argue for greater enforcement, not changing the law, unless you have a *legal* example of what's wrong with H1B.

Re:I'm for it.

[guacamole]

I am sorry man, but you have no idea about the reality of H1B workers. Most I have known are fairly smart people and they were already relatively well to-do by the standards of their country. They would certainly NOT come here to live 6 an apartment. Also, a lot of the successful ones eventually convert their H1B visa status to a more permanent visa to stay here. Now, it's possible that some of them send money back home. So what? Would you instead prefer to see entire corporate offices with ALL jobs moved to India, Taiwan, China, or Russia? This is not that hard at all, you know.

To put this a little blunt, this is a global competitive economy, and if you can't adapt then you should improve, change your career, or just perish. Sorry. No other way around this.

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

> They can, there are plenty of people with the qualifications they need

Bullshit.

I work for a well-known software company that lobbies congress on these topics. Hiring decisions are not arbitrarily made by high-level managers and HR types. Most of the people on interview loops (which inform the hiring decision) are non-managers at the bottom of the totem pole. Though many people like to think otherwise, we really like hiring and working with smart, talented people. There just aren't that many good, qualified people who come through the interview loop. It's not about "can this candidate write a brain-dead for-loop". It's all about "can this candidate do a bang-up job, and help us all grow".

It's not like we have lots of people who can be hired for the job, and then choose between them opting for one kind of worker over another. We need and want good people. If you didn't get hired, it is probably because the folks on the interview loop didn't think you'd be a good hire. I know that this is the case in my company, and most of the other well-known tech companies.

Not all companies are the same, and this is just one perspective. All I know is that, if you are qualified, my company wants to hire you, and I want to work with you. So, apply already. And, if you didn't get hired, or didn't get the salary offer that you liked -- maybe, just maybe, it is because you aren't as good as you think you are. And having been a part of many interview loops ... most people aren't nearly as good as they think they are.

Re:I'm for it.

[nedlohs]

No, you are just an idiot.

65k is the current limit. However, there are some exclusions to that limit so 20k additional visas can be granted to those who got a masters (or higher) degree from a US university. And US Universities have free reign and they can use h1b visas without them counting against the limit.

http://www.travel.state.gov/pdf/FY2011NIVWorkloadbyVisaCategory.pdf makes it pretty obvious to anyone who isn't a moron that more than 65k are issued.

Re:I'm for it.

[DarkOx]

I can see the argument for smaller businesses needed h1b workers. Perhaps there should be cap like if you already have X number of employees you are not eligible to hire non citizens. Work in domestic facilities.

There is no reason a big firm like Microsoft can't select the best of their own internal talent and develop it. Either by sending them down a traditional accredited academic track or some other means to get them the knowledge they need. A company like Microsoft absolutely could afford to send their better performing employes to classes 20 hours a week.

Our lack of domestic STEM educated people is because of the imported labor and the rather nutty idea that the only time anyone can go to college is right outa high school.

Re:I'm for it.

[sociocapitalist]

It doesn't invite the best of the best. It invites people who will do the same jobs as Americans but for much less money, thus increasing corporate profits while helping to ensure the continuation of high American unemployment.

Re:I'm for it.

[sociocapitalist]

It's wonderful until the job market is flooded with 140k h1b workers working for absurdly low wages

And who are these H1B workers on absurdly low wages? It costs Microsoft 30% more to hire foreigners on H1Bs because there aren't enough Americans graduating with master's and PhDs in STEM fields. MSFT would gladly hire Americans to do these jobs, if they could. I'm quite confident this generalizes to other tech companies.

References for your assertions? Demonstrate that there weren't enough Americans that could do the jobs in question, don't just make a statement without anything to back it up.

Re:I'm for it.

[sleepy_weasel]

So, what you're saying is, is Ranjeet from Bangalore works in like Sub-basement B designing Windows 8, right next to the furnace and eats rats for lunch, while Cameron (insert white guy name) works on the 4th floor, in a nice office, eating from the lobby commissary? /me apologizes to any Ranjeets out there. First name I thought of.

Re:I'm for it.

[sociocapitalist]

So give them a green card so their employer can't hold their status hostage.

How about just hiring the fucking Americans who can do the job even though it costs a bit more to the company?

Why are you so ready to knock down the American standard of living?

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit, perhaps if companies would start actually hiring entry level workers there would be workers available to fill those jobs. As it stands pretty much all the entry level job postings I see require 5 years of experience and a level of degree above what's realistically needed.

If employers aren't finding the people they need, perhaps they should think about not pissing in the pool and start doing something to encourage the development of that section of the work force.

Refusing to hire anybody entry level and then using the H-1B program to fix the situation isn't what that program is for.

Re:I'm for it.

[hairyfeet]

I take it you've not watched How NOT to hire an American then? Fraud is RAMPANT in the H1-B program, with BS qualifications like 5 years of Win 8 experience or 15 years of .NET being all too common. Then once they get the "qualified" H1-B they are paid below the market going rate for the ACTUAL job.

But in the end everyone here should be against the H1-B because not only are we looking at nearly a trillion in student loans, with defaults jumping to 12% in the past couple of years, but the simple fact it completely destroys supply and demand and makes sure there will NEVER be an American for those jobs. After all, what idiot is gonna go $50k-$75k in debt for a job they know they'll have to compete for with a guy that paid less than 15K for theirs?

In the end the vast majority of their wages will go overseas, never to return, and the H1-Bs themselves will go overseas with the education and work experience. if you look at the real numbers we are looking at something like 23% unemployment, what are we gonna do with all those people? Do you know how many are going straight from their college graduation to the unemployment lines? When you are in a recession and there aren't enough jobs to go around as it is the LAST thing you want is corps poisoning the system by distorting supply and demand and driving yet more money overseas.

Personally, I don't know about everyone else here, but i'm sick to damned death of the "just give the corps what they want and things will get better" horseshit. We have been doing that for over 20 years now, are things better? We have practically gutted regulation, the ACTUAL amount of taxes the fortune 500 pay thanks to loopholes has never been lower, with many corps like GE actually getting money out instead of putting any in, are things better? maybe for the 5% at the top but for everyone else it sure as hell ain't. When unemployment is below 4% then and ONLY then should we be talking about importing workers, not when we have many of our young people buried in student loans and working at the Pizza Hut.

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's wonderful until the job market is flooded with 140k h1b workers working for absurdly low wages, soaking up the few jobs there are in your particular field, sending the bulk of what they do earn home instead of spending it here.

I'm sure corporate america loves the idea though. Can't get the price of capable labor down low enough? Bring in people that will live 6 to an apartment and work cheaper than anyone with those old, outdated ideas of a family, home and a lawn to mow!

the reason h1b workers are trying to work in the united states is because of higher wages and better working conditions. if upon working at the U.S. and they will get the same pay and the same working conditions, why would they spend the effort trying to go to the U.S. after all?

Re:I'm for it.

[Charliemopps]

That's horseshit. The H1Bs that I see come in are almost always temps. Sure they cost 30% more PER HOUR. If you care to do the accounting like that. But the cost of a real worker, one that requires health insurance, vacation, raises and A DESK far dwarfs what they pay these H1Bs that come in. They hire them because they are disposable. When they decide to lay them all off, no one will complain.

I'm all for easier immigration. But we should give these people easy paths to citizenship so they can join the market and enjoy the same protections we all have. Currently we give them slave visas, use them until we don't need them any more and then kick them out of the country. We should be ashamed, not just do to the harm to our workers but also the harm to these immigrants we're exploiting and our own integrity.

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

America is a country that was built on the backbone of immigrants right from the 19th century (see references). Your American Standard of living is a bubble that is waiting to explode. Ultimately Companies push for cheaper labour to bring down costs simply because you the American buyer choose to buy cheaper products instead of opting to pay more for American goods.

So if the people really feel strongly about it, take action by refusing to buy cheaper goods made in China etc. and ask for American goods etc. If everyone speaks up then it will happen. Otherwise there will continue to be a global equalization effect, where American and foreign workers will ultimately be paid on equal terms subject to their qualifications and merit.

Also not sure why anyone is unhappy. The overall cap is still the same, its just that you are now saying that we will only select the best and brightest from across the world within the cap rather than have a quota per country. You may see an increase in immigrants from a specific country, but overall the total number of immigrants coming in per year will be constant.

You could put in rules that prevent companies from cutting wages purely on cost, so that an immigrant competes with an american purely on merit and not on wage. Ultimately a country prospers when it has a stealthy stream of skilled immigrants coming in on a controlled basis - fresh blood, new ideas, new vigour. Blocking it off completely ultimately would lead to stagnation and decline. But there needs to be a balance - you cant just throw open your borders.

No references here just my theory - will try digging up refs later - If immigrants come in and are earning on par with americans, then that means more taxes for the govt, more grants to education centres, potentially more scholarships for education..you get the picture..ultimately everyone benefits. Cheap labour only results in a short term benefit and long term harm.

Disclaimer: I don't work in the USA, but my skills are specialized enough that I know there is an actual scarcity of American labour with my skillset, so I actually can get paid as much as the next American if I choose to move there if the visa problem wasn't an issue. However that's not to say that all cases are exactly like mine. Each should be treated on a case by case basis.

Some references:
http://www.xtimeline.com/evt/view.aspx?id=210421
http://www.termpaperwarehouse.com/essay-on/The-Backbone-Of-America-s-Might/73351

Re:I'm for it.

[dark12222000]

This is a capitalist society. Either compete (and win) or die. You want a high standard of living? Earn it.

Re:I'm for it.

[dark12222000]

Welcome to Capitalism.

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

How about require that H-1 B workers get paid no less than current market average?
The red tape involved with foreign workers will encourage hiring locally.

Re:I'm for it.

[cyfer2000]

Tata Consultancy Services, Larsen Toubro Infotech, Cognizant Technology Solutions, UST Global, Patni Americas... Check this list out.

Re:I'm for it.

[Anne_Nonymous]

May I be having my stapler back please, yes?

Re:I'm for it.

[moeinvt]

"there aren't enough Americans graduating with master's and PhDs in STEM fields"

BULL - SHIT

Publish an advertisement for whatever STEM grad that you want. $200,000 per year plus great benefits, incentive bonuses and stock options. Are you trying to suggest that ZERO American citizens with the right qualifications would apply for this job?

"MSFT would gladly hire Americans to do these jobs,"

Yeah, they would be glad to hire Americans. i.e. Americans that are willing to work at the same shit wages they pay foreigners. There are plenty of Americans qualified to do the actual WORK, just not for subsistence level compensation.

Re:I'm for it.

[drinkypoo]

Would you instead prefer to see entire corporate offices with ALL jobs moved to India, Taiwan, China, or Russia? This is not that hard at all, you know.

Yes, yes it is hard, and moreover, it will cost you customers.

Re:I'm for it.

[drinkypoo]

How about require that H-1 B workers get paid no less than current market average?

You're already required to pay H1-B workers market rate. However, you can also work them 18 hours a day...

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Low wages, why not, the engineers who demand a high salary are just plain greedy! You jerks on this site are so against corporations making gobs of money and managers, well lets be fair and apply it to your professions. Stupid slash dots hypocrites, but that's how dumb socialism works. OWNS baby!

Re:I'm for it.

[slmdmd]

Please get your facts right - h1b workers are way more expensive than local workers, in some cases almost double. L1 are cheaper(almost half) but not h1b. During recession L1s replace both h1b and local workers, h1bs first. And there is no cap on L1, green card for L1 requires no Labor approval. Want the jobs back then focus on L1. When h1bs are squeezed, Corporations look more towards outsourcing via L1 route. H1bs add money back into the economy. In the middle class, H1bs are the biggest contributors to Social Security and Tax.

Re:I'm for it.

[misexistentialist]

India and China both peg their currency to the dollar to some extent. If that's how a "competitive economy" works, eliminating importation of Indian and Chinese products through tariffs is "competitive" too. Hell, setting up a blockage around those countries to kill their economies would be fair game too.

Re:I'm for it.

[sycodon]

You say that as if having a Masters or PhD in real life counts for shit when it comes to getting the job done.

I think that in many cases, the call for these credentials is not only overkill, but possibly even detrimental. After all, when you are a PhD, your mind is polluted with all the knowledge of things that WON'T work and which you subsequently never even attempt.

Re:I'm for it.

[sociocapitalist]

I grew up in a state funded school for orphans and now I make well over 150k a year so I am no stranger to making my way in the world.

If you think that you can compete at any level below C (CEO, CIO, etc) without protection from competitive cheap labor then you are a fool.

Re:I'm for it.

[sycodon]

if you are qualified, my company wants to hire you

And there's the problem...what is the definition of "qualified"? I've been i this business for nearly thirty years. When I was laid off, I had about 3 years C# experience...as in heads down coding 80% of the day 5 days a week. It was my world.

Looking for work, people wouldn't even interview me because they wanted 5 years experience, or 4. One place wanted 1 year experience in some particular tool that I had gone to training for and used for nearly 10 months. Sorry...not enough "experience".

The hiring process at most companies is a joke of tick off the requirements line. If the airlines hired pilots like this, they'd reject an Air Force Colonel with 20 years at the stick of a C-5 because they aren't certified to fly a 747.

So I say cut the HB-1 stuff to a trickle and make the companies actually pay attention to the candidates instead of doing fucking keyword scans on resumes.

Re:I'm for it.

[Cyberax]

Actually, the current average salary for H1B workers in IT in NYC area is around $80k which is pretty decent. I'm a foreigner and I'm thinking about moving to the US (I'm a co-owner of a small US software company). I've attended several job interviews in the US just for fun and I was offered more than $120k for a position in Maryland, so not all H1B jobs are low-paying.

However, H1B system is literally swamped by hordes of Indian developers, many of them with very low qualification. We've tried to hire H1B Indian developers but it's extremely hard to find anybody qualified. There might not be a general IT skill shortage, but there certainly is a shortage of high-quality developers.

Re:I'm for it.

[sycodon]

Another reason is that to a large degree, PhD programs are clubs. You not only have to meet the academic requirements, but you also have to do the whole political thing, which pretty much starts when you are an undergrad. If you piss off a professor anywhere along the way, then you are toast and have to work ten times as hard to get accepted into a program somewhere.

Re:I'm for it.

[dark12222000]

Thanks for the vague claim. Unfortunately, vague claims don't suffice for evidence.

I happen to work in the University ecosystem where I don't have protection from competitive cheap labor (aside from them having the same minimum pay standards as I have) and I happen to have, and have maintained, a job for several years now, and live quite plush. My skills and knowledge keep my employed, not some artificial set of laws.

Re:I'm for it.

[sycodon]

I am about as hard core Market as it gets. But China is a distortion of the market where you essentially have people working as slaves for the State.

Re:I'm for it.

[QuantumRiff]

The perhaps, the good answer should be that MS should team up with several Universities to fund many, many scholarships for people in the fields they need. You know.. actually encourage people to go into them.

Re:I'm for it.

[SilentStaid]

No, it's just a skills shortage. We can't find anyone who's willing to work for $75kpa, who does exactly what we want them to do

That was sarcasm, right? God I hope so. What you're telling me is that you can't find people willing to do the job you want for the money that you want to pay them for and you're blaming a skills shortage?

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Welcome to Capitalism.

I think you meant "Fascism" -- that's where Capitalists get to set immigration policy.

Re:I'm for it.

[__aaltlg1547]

The H1-B visa system is bad top to bottom. It makes indentured servants of the workers and it makes companies defraud the government by claiming unique or hard to find skills are needed when they're not.

Re:I'm for it.

[__aaltlg1547]

The unemployment rate for SW engineers is still over 4%. There are people available. And if MS wants more graduates in SWEng it can afford to fund scholarships and train its own.

Re:I'm for it.

[Eravnrekaree]

This is why we should abolish the H3B program.It will force companies to actually start investing in American workers again. They can do it, on the job training, apprentiships. With millions of out of work americans we can easily get these people into corporations in on the job training and apprentiships, we would actually start to rebuild our middle class and reduce the poverty levels, creating a more highly skilled population.

Furthermore, we need to stop the brain drain from other countries. The highly skilled labor from destination countries needs to stay in those countries to help those countries develop economically. They need doctors, engineers and innovaters in those countries.

I am convinced the H3B program needs to be abolished. I stand 100% opposed to immigration. I am instead for industrial aid to third world countries to allow them to develop their own industries with their own population.

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

This crux of the bill is actually about the Green Card. Removing of Country quota for Green Card applications.

H1b does not have country quota - but Green Cards do - and disproportionate number of workers remaining on H1b are from India and China. Per the current system employees from other countries can convert to green card much faster. This bill changes that, so that the H1b population is lot lot less skewed.

Current system has complex rules on when green cards can spill over (from over subscribed to under subscribed countries) - so a large number of Green cards are kept until the least quarter/month of each year before allotting. Lots of heartbreaking green card wastage that results from this (270K since 2000 - i.e. 270K fewer employees on H1b!).

This bill fixes the current system without increasing any numbers. The Green Card fix alone helps the H1b system.

Disclaimer: On H1b. In the green card queue since 2005 - at the current rate, will get it in 2022.

Re:I'm for it.

[BVis]

And there's the problem...what is the definition of "qualified"?

Said elsewhere but bears repetition:

Listed qualifications: 5 years blah blah 4 years blah blah good team player etc.

Actual qualifications: Willingness to work insane hours. Willingness to ruin health to help the company make a buck. Willingness to put employer ahead of all other priorities, including financial security and family. Willingness to work at 20% below the industry average for the area. Ability to say "how high" when some pinhead over-promoted manager with an IQ of 70 says "Jump." Ability to refrain from using begrudgingly given PTO. Ability to not get sick or in an accident or have a loved one die.

Re:I'm for it.

[hey!]

What immigration policies that try to retain that talent? H-1B is a *technology transfer* program which makes it easier for companies to move jobs overseas.

If you wanted to retain that talent, you wouldn't bring them in on H-1B. You'd issue them a green card.

Re:I'm for it.

[Bill_the_Engineer]

No, it's just a skills shortage.

In this case, skill shortage means a shortage of people possessing the skill and willing to work for less than the median salary for their chosen profession.

Re:I'm for it.

[BVis]

They don't get paid market rate. What is the H1-B visa holder going to do if they find out that the native worker next to them is making $20k/year more than them with the same experience and the same job responsibilities? Complain? That's a one-way ticket back to wherever they're from. We're basically all "at-will" employees, but native workers don't face deportation for asserting their (few) rights as employees, they just get fired.

Re:I'm for it.

[Bill_the_Engineer]

That, or companies could actually take on university graduates like they used to do, train them, treat them well, and have some high class permanents who know what they're doing. Oh wait, that's a long term strategy. And long term's no good because in the long term we're all dead anyway.

They still do. They are called "fresh outs" and corporations love them. They are young, willing to relocate, and work for less than the going rate in exchange for experience to show on their resume. These corporations tend to hire by the project. This allows them to layoff workers at the end of each project and the workers find themselves competing with new "fresh outs" on upcoming projects. The majority of these workers find themselves looking elsewhere for employment only to find out that despite their experienced gained from their first employer they must compete with H1B workers who will work for less pay.

Re:I'm for it.

[thoughtsatthemoment]

It's not necessarily about low salary. Foreign workers, especially those form Asia, are far more obedient. Some might even be sycophants. Do-nothing managers love them.

Re:I'm for it.

[BVis]

How, exactly, do you see 'greater enforcement' happening under the current system? Picture this:

Concerned party (immigrant's rights worker, social worker, lawyer): "You're being exploited, they're not paying you market rate, you should complain"
H1-B visa holder: "If I do that, they'll fire me. Better to be making below market value than get deported back to [wherever] where I will make 1/10th of what I make here."

It's like a prostitute complaining about his/her pimp to the police. All it will do is 1) get him/her arrested for solicitation and 2) beaten and possibly killed by said pimp.

Re:I'm for it.

[Lehk228]

Se we should let the corporations fuck us out of fear that they will fuck us harder?

We need to deglobalize the economy as the people do not see any of the advantages, IP laws allow companies to sell for low prices overseas but restrict imports

Build import tariffs in such a way as to severely penalize production in places where environmental and or worker safety laws are lax, make importing profits from overseas holdings difficult as well if those overseas holdings do business, directly or indirectly, in the US.

Re:I'm for it.

[aaarrrgggh]

Ok, so the marketing and finance executive positions stay, but everybody else goes. The corporate headquarters is moved to a tax haven. Other corporations and consumers alike are suckers for lower prices, and they reward the behavior without looking at the total cost.

Re:I'm for it.

[drinkypoo]

There is selective enforcement of the law, but that doesn't change that you're required on paper to pay the "prevailing wage". The program as designed is not the problem, it's the program as implemented that is.

Re:I'm for it.

[Ryanrule]

Requiring them to match salaries with the market doesnt work up when they make up a new title for every job.

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for the vague claim. Unfortunately, vague claims don't suffice for evidence.

I happen to work in the University ecosystem where I don't have protection from competitive cheap labor (aside from them having the same minimum pay standards as I have) and I happen to have, and have maintained, a job for several years now, and live quite plush. My skills and knowledge keep my employed, not some artificial set of laws.

Huh?

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Please do the needful!

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe that you missed his tags; stupid slashdot losing tags and stuff.

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

ha ha, slashdot ate my <satire> tags for me!

Re:I'm for it.

[mapsjanhere]

You haven't been to any STEM graduate school lately much, have you? There are about 25% max of "long-term citizen" and a whole lot of Asians (mainly Chinese and Indian, not surprising as they make up 40% of the world's population). The real change lately is that there now are more citizens than you saw in the 80' and 90' due to the fact that the fist generation immigrant PhDs now have their children in grad school. And the reason for that is that your typical STEM American gets the 100k offer as a BS because they are needed, and skips the 5 years of grad student existence. As for the subject of the article, the big business H1B users would love to get rid of it, they can get all your H1B needs filled with just one recruiting bureau in Mumbai. And the "they cost more to hire" argument is flat-out wrong, it's cheaper to pay an attorney to process and H1B than an head hunter to recruit a citizen.

Re:I'm for it.

[Beetle B.]

According to who, Microsoft? Gee, I can't think of any reason they might want to lie about this.

That argument applies equally well to all those who whine about low pay and not being able to get a job.

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

HR is retarded. Got it. However, H1B employees cost more than local employees. I know this. However, I hire them because they are willing to work, and you're on slashdot bitching. Yes, they're worth *more* to me than you are. H1B's are expensive and cost a lot of time. It's not a salary thing, it's a lazy fact fuck Americans thing.

Re:I'm for it.

[DigiShaman]

Don't worry. Universal Healthcare in America just passed. All of it - as a tax (not commerce clause). So with the precedent set, welcome to a new soon-to-be crafted universal tuition!!! It will happen. Mark my words. It will pass, and you as the tax payer will end up being soaked to pay off this 1 trillion dollar debt in student loans.

Re:I'm for it.

[pnutjam]

and pay $12 / hour or in this area, about what a shift closer makes doing fast food

Re:I'm for it.

[Shompol]

I am sorry man, but you have no idea about the reality of H1B workers. Most I have known are fairly smart people and they were already relatively well to-do by the standards of their country.

Please explain why 90% of taxi drivers in NYC became Indian in a span of only a couple of years? I think you are the one who does not know the reality. All levels are being replaced with H1B -- from drivers to PhD's! If they import enough workers the economy will drive our wages down to be comparable to that of China and India. Is that the globalization that you speak about? Somehow we did much better before it started.

Re:I'm for it.

[BVis]

I disagree. The structure of the current program discourages the visa holders from asserting their rights, which effectively means they do not have those rights. Imposing a requirement on those who employ H1-B visa holders to PROVE they're paying market rates to an impartial authority would probably be a solution.

Re:I'm for it.

[4phun]

No, it's just a skills shortage.

In this case, skill shortage means a shortage of people possessing the skill and willing to work for less than the median salary for their chosen profession.

WOW!

I wish I could bump this up to the top comment on H-1B at /.

Things have really changed in just a few years.

I am retired but it actually pains me to see H-1B adversely affecting so many with key skills still struggling to make a living.

Re:I'm for it.

[e065c8515d206cb0e190]

When I was an H1B worker, I had health care like my peers, was paid more than my peers and had slightly shorter hours than my peers. Your stereotypes belong to the local pub.

Re:I'm for it.

[drinkypoo]

If they want rights, perhaps they should become citizens. They thought they were getting a free ride?

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not even one person should be allowed as long as even one american is unemployed.

Re:I'm for it.

[sycodon]

Since you're on Slashdot too I expect you are a lazy fat fuck American?

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, that escalated quickly.

Non-residents here legally under a legitimate program have no rights? Even if said program specifically grants them rights?

Wow.

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

"They need doctors, engineers and innovaters in those countries."
So these countries "need" those professionals but aren't willing to make it attractive enough for them to stay?
Well I "need" a BMW but I don't want to pay full price.
Same deal.
If you need something but aren't wiling to pay for it, too bad; somebody else (another country) is probably willing to pay what those professionals are really worth.

"The highly skilled labor from destination countries needs to stay in those countries to help those countries develop economically."
Professionals NEED to stay in those countries? When did they sign such an abusive contract?
And they need to HELP those countries develop? In exchange for what?
People aren't born just to serve as batteries to help a country develop. People aren't cogs.

You forget that people should live their lives for themselves and not for the sake of the country they happened to be born in.

"These countries need highly skilled people to innovate there and build their economy."
Yeah, and most of them are not offering competitive enough salaries and benefits to keep them. Therefore, people there should simply accept worse work conditions? Or should they try going somewhere else where their worth is better recognized?

It's really strange that you think people should simply live for their countries. If you are interested in "preserving the unique qualities of the populations of different countries" then you, the interested party, should contribute towards that. Maybe you should donate so that someone has a better salary and better working conditions in another country, so that they won't think of emigrating. But you have no right to tell foreigners that they should stay where they are in order to preserve your idea of how the world should work.

Re:I'm for it.

[couchslug]

Then facilitate LEGAL immigration and capture the talent. Americans don't want to work and disdain many jobs because they think they are too precious to compete.

Import and retain skilled workers, denying them to other countries. Business is war and "defectors" are useful. "Brain drain" the competition and welcome new Americans.

Re:I'm for it.

[sycodon]

Since you are the one "hiring" then you are the problem.

You would reject someone with 20 years experience in manufacturing, who knows ERP and MRP backwards and forwards because they don't meet some lame ass criteria you set for an ERP developer.

If you'd pull your head out of your ass and actually interview people you might find those who, although maybe need to come up to speed on your tool set, knows your business, can actually discuss solutions intelligently with your customers and design solutions that have longevity and are robust.

But no. You want some code monkey that you can pitch specs to and have them churn out code. Maybe that's what's wrong with American workers, they don't submit to incompetent control freaks.

Re:I'm for it.

[drinkypoo]

Non-residents here legally under a legitimate program have no rights?

Well actually, I meant it a little tongue-in-cheek. It's not like we have rights; the ones enumerated in the constitution are being denied us singly and in groups, and it was never even meant to be an exhaustive list.

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's wonderful until the job market is flooded with 140k h1b workers working for absurdly low wages

And who are these H1B workers on absurdly low wages? It costs Microsoft 30% more to hire foreigners on H1Bs because there aren't enough Americans graduating with master's and PhDs in STEM fields. MSFT would gladly hire Americans to do these jobs, if they could. I'm quite confident this generalizes to other tech companies.

Got that wrong.

Microsoft prerejects Americans in favor of H1Bs.

Re:I'm for it.

[sjames]

Offer more money or better conditions and you'll get a better quality of applicant. You might also find that HR is not correctly filtering candidates when it decides who should be offered an interview.

Re:I'm for it.

[russotto]

And who are these H1B workers on absurdly low wages? It costs Microsoft 30% more to hire foreigners on H1Bs because there aren't enough Americans graduating with master's and PhDs in STEM fields.

And why, exactly, do they need people with masters degrees in computer science? What do you get with a masters degree in computer science that you don't get with a bachelor's degree in same?

In case you haven't figured it out, they don't. The reason for the masters degree requirement is to create a false shortage. H-1B workers are often preferred because they can't freely change companies.

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Since you're on Slashdot too I expect you are a lazy fat fuck American?"

Since you're making disrespectful remarks I expect you are a piece of shit.

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

The vast majority of these people are being hired by "consulting firms" which bring people into the country and charge a bill rate that is approximately 2-3 times what the employee is actually making.

Get rid of the shops' ability to abuse cheap labor and you get fix the majority of the competition issues that IT people complain about.

Re:I'm for it.

[sjames]

It may help the problem, but the real answer is to scrap the H1-B program entirely and go with JUST the green card (possibly with adjustments)

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

so they work for measly wages and then are able to send bulk of their money home and america is seeing unprecedented rise in cost of living. Can you go and take elementary math again or give H1b workers credit for being able to survive with nothing.

You are just ridiculously biased and uninformed person. Bulk of H1B money is spent here in the US in taxes, in rent (or mortgage), in cars, in gas, groceries, basic shopping etc and since they aren't really paid too much there is very little that is left that they send home but that some of them do. I never did.

I am not on H1B anymore and am a citizen. Am all for american jobs being staying with americans but hate the idea of lying to support your position.

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

It'd be much more accurate to say the .5% at the top, not the 5%. those 4.5% below that top half actually work for a living. They just make more money doing it.

http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/investment_manager.html

Lots of great eye-opening stuff there other than the article linked. Gets ya pissed off though.

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

The entire problem with your statement is the concept of qualification.

Microsoft wants a programmer, who

A: Has a Masters Degree.
B: Knows "web technologies"
C: "Has worked with IE8 before"
D: Wants a salary range between 75 and 115k per year.
E: Has X years of experience.
F: Knows Java, Perl, Ruby, C#, etc etc.

By the time you get through that list of qualifications, the fact is the ONLY people qualified to do those things are currently employed working for your competitors.

I see e-mails for stuff like this all day every day from recruiters; they will literally offer $500 for a lead for referral for someone with that specific skill set.

Would you spend money training someone to do them or hire someone to diddle around with the project and figure it out for 8 hours a day? No. You'd have to pay 90% of market, give raises every 3 months, make sure they are happy, spend an ungodly amount of cash on training, and hope things work out.

IF you're going to train someone, why not send your money to India, Train someone there, then bring them over on H1B? When the job ends, they go home so they won't job hop some place else without sponsorship. Their goal is to work here 7 years and get citizenship. You can also forge their credentials and break the job up between 5 or 6 people.

So allow me to reiterate, we do in fact have a skills shortage BECAUSE AMERICAN COMPANIES REFUSE TO INVEST IN AMERICANS! If I go to college, get a degree, get the certifications, and some experience, am I valuable? Maybe, maybe not, but I will tell you if I'm American I'm expected to self-train On The Job, work OT to do it, and I'm expected to update my education on my own time and dime to maximize my productivity for my employer, without the expectation of yearly raises or bonuses.

Now, if you force companies to get audited and show how Apu from India had all of those qualifications BEFORE taking on the job, and that he didn't need a significant amount of training to learn to do the job, then H1B demand dies off. And I'm talking "So who can I call in India to verify he has 7 years of experience, oh, so they're all out of business. Do you have their Tax ID#'s? No, well OK, how about this degree? Can you show me residency records from, oh so they don't keep them. So in other-words we have no way to tell....".

The problem is I, and everyone else here, have the gut feeling some outsourcing company is behind this and thinks they stand to make enough money to grease the auditors. With Money.

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

I disagree that H1Bs work on absurdly low wages. But most people don't see other tax payer obligation down the road from H1B workers. Many of my Chinese friends follow this path: come US to graduate school, get a job/obtain H1B, a few years later obtain green card, 5 years later get citizenship. Then here comes the payback time: a few month later parents get green card then parents apply government housing, food assistance, health insurance, free cell phone etc... anything low income senior citizens can qualify from federal, state, county or city level. If they have not so highly educated siblings and those siblings want to come to US, those siblings get sponsorship to obtain green card as well - though that is a long process. Then the siblings' in laws came ...

Re:I'm for it.

[dodobh]

Which is what they can't do :)

Re:I'm for it.

[Khashishi]

That's the crux of it. Anytime anyone makes the argument that the Indians are taking all the American jobs, I just think, fuck borders. Why should I care about the pursuit of prosperity of my fellow American over the pursuit of the Indian? Yet, the current H1B program gives companies a huge coercive power over the foreign workers, and this is what needs to be resolved.

Re:I'm for it.

[sociocapitalist]

You might not be a fool but you are ignorant of the ways of things beyond minimum wage. You aren't even realizing, as the earlier poster pointed out, the amount of protection you already benefit from even now.

If there were no laws regarding immigration, no laws regarding minimum wage...you either wouldn't have a job at all or you'd be earning what the folks in Mexico, India and China make.

Also, assuming that you'll eventually want to move up from minimum wage I would bet that you are going to want more and more protection as the wages, and thus the competition for them, gets higher.

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

As usual, I knew this youtube video would show in this discussion. I'll copy an earlier reply of me verbatim from four years ago:

It's extremely, EXTREMELY, unfortunate that you were modded informative for bringing up a YouTube video which has nothing to do with the H1-B process...

You want to be up in arms about something? How about the following:

Step 1. Get hired by a company as an H1-B because you're the best qualified person for this job.
Step 2. Work for six years for this company. Perform well. Get promoted once or twice. Eventually take a leadership position.
Step 3. The company, wanting to keep you because by now you've become invaluable to them, wants to help you get your green card.
Step 4. Advertise your position as if they were willing to get rid of you the next day and replace you by a new hire.
Step 5. Continue with the green card process.

Can you spot some retarded-ness somewhere in this process? If so, join the ranks of the people who are outraged about the sheer fucking stupidity of the U.S. immigration process. You'll be in the company of H1-Bs like me and of companies who are trying to retain their top talent.

(And in case you're not getting it: the PERM process decried in that video? That's Step 4.)

Re:I'm for it.

[erp_consultant]

Nice try AC. I have conducted tons of interviews over the years. H1-B is just being used as an extension of "off-shoring". Management will fix the job descriptions such that anyone here in the US that possesses the qualifications won't go anywhere near the salary being offered. That opens the door to bring in the H1-B working who will do anything to get in. It's a way to get low cost workers that cannot easily leave the company. It's also unpatriotic bullshit. Isn't it bad enough that we have given up on manufacturing? Now we're slowly killing higher skilled jobs as well.

Re:I'm for it.

[shutdown -p now]

After all, what idiot is gonna go $50k-$75k in debt for a job they know they'll have to compete for with a guy that paid less than 15K for theirs?

Maybe you should consider this as a sign that American high education is overpriced?

And, you know, it's not just Indians who can study in American universities. Americans can also study in foreign universities, and there are plenty places where it's cheaper. In fact, there are plenty places in US itself which are cheaper than $50k. If a guy with an Indian degree can get hired, do you really need the most expensive education you can get in US?

Re:I'm for it.

[Darinbob]

That is an important point. H1-B visa holders are often abused by employers because it is know the visa holders do not want to risk losing their job and being forced to return home. A green card holder has more freedom to shop around for jobs and will be able to hunt for a new job after being laid off. An H1-B visa holder often feels compelled to work additional hours for less pay. Employers too sometimes seem too eager to lie and claim a job can not be filled locally. Of course all the visa holders act differently, they're not all alike and not all employers and managers are this sleazy, but it happens often enough that you don't have to search very far to find examples.

Re:I'm for it.

[Darinbob]

Not necessarily. As an engineer I do see many foreigners with skillsets and experience as good as mine but also a very large number who are much less skilled. That doesn't necessarily give me any job security because I have seen cases where employers prefer the cheaper workers over the best workers, and sometimes getting more headcount seems the goal instead of getting the a quality product built.

So on one hand I can definitely compete with cheap labor but I have to search more for jobs that actually want quality workers. Those jobs are indeed much less common however they have always been much less common. The place to worry is if your job involves doing the same thing as a hundred thousand of other workers using the currently fashionable tools and languages.

Re:I'm for it.

[Darinbob]

In the US, all residents and visitors are granted rights, not only citizens. A foreigner working in the US legally is granted the same labor rights as a native born citizen.

Re:I'm for it.

[guacamole]

Build import tariffs in such a way as to severely penalize production in places where environmental and or worker safety laws are lax, make importing profits from overseas holdings difficult as well if those overseas holdings do business, directly or indirectly, in the US.

We're not talking about the outsourcing of production. We're talking about outsourcing of high skilled occupations. Think of a bunch of Indian or Russian engineers working at AMD offices in their countries or say Facebook office hiring a bunch of programmers in Indonesia. The primary purpose of these is to produce high technology knowledge for the consumption by the same company. The actual physical production, if it takes place at all, need not be done in the same county. So I don't see how your idea is going to work.

Re:I'm for it.

[Darinbob]

Money earned by immigrants being sent back home has been happening since the US came into existence. It happens with all immigrant booms the US has had.

Re:I'm for it.

[guacamole]

Let's set aside completely irrelevant analogies, such as your taxi drivers. We're talking about H1B visa program, which works only for people with college or advanced degrees. I can hardly imagine how the foreign H1Bs are replacing locally grown PhD. If they're worth a damn, the locals should stay on top. We have the best PhD education in the world, and this is why our graduate programs are filled +50% with foreigners.

Regarding the wages.. yes man, if you get paid $4000 a month but exactly the same job can be performed equally well by someone in Taiwan for $1000 a month, I don't see a reason for your job to exist here. However, the United States sets the pace and standards in technology. The other countries are just followers. If your job is threatened, this means it's time to update your skill or change career. This is a global economy and you can't sit still. Go get a new certification, a graduate degree or certificate, or attend a technical conference. It's not that hard to stay on top.

Re:I'm for it.

[guacamole]

Maybe it's hard for a startup. For large and mid-sized company, it's not that hard at all to move an office abroad or outsource it completely to a 3rd party entity.

Re:I'm for it.

[guacamole]

I am not quite sure how this idea will work in 21st century, where a lot of end products are just knowledge and technology. AMD or Intel can outsource certain chip design to a different country, no physical product actually ends being imported from there. The only result is the development of technology for the parent company, which could use it in variety of ways.

Re:I'm for it.

[sociocapitalist]

Okay, but even so you are currently protected by immigration regulation. If there were no limits, you as an engineer wouldn't be up against the quantity of others that you're currently up against, but up against many more looking for similar work...in which case, assuming that economics is accurate, your earnings would drop in direct relation to the availability of similar labor.

Re:I'm for it.

[ExploHD]

Would you instead prefer to see entire corporate offices with ALL jobs moved to India, Taiwan, China, or Russia? This is not that hard at all, you know.

They would lose all of the training, knowledge, and identity of their company. Sure, you could hire cheap programmers and engineers in other countries, but there is NO* guarantee that they would deliver the same standards as before.

*none, zip, zilch, zero, nada, nil

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm an H1-B and MS pays me $120k/yr for a coding job. How much more than that do you want?

Re:I'm for it.

[shutdown -p now]

You're right that they do not need people with master's degree in CS, which is why they also hire people without such a degree - foreigners or not.

Re:I'm for it.

[shentino]

Personally, I see the flood of H1B's as reflecting the relative poverty of other nations considering that they are even willing to accept such low paying jobs to begin with.

Minimum wage and high barriers to immigration is just a long way of saying that we are being protectionist in the global labor market.

As long as companies are honest, don't cheat people out of their wages, and comply with payroll tax obligations, I welcome this.

I believe in capitalism and competition.

Besides, if a company is hell bent on saving costs, and can't hire H1B's, it can always just take on a foreign vendor to do the work completely oversees.

The problem is that us Americans are being rich snobs that won't roll up our sleeves and pitch in. If we really wanted to do the work for a fair price, there wouldn't be room for H1B workers.

People want to think that labor is something special, but it really isn't. It is a commodity that can be bought and sold on the market just like any other good.

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

please revert

kindly,

Manmohan Ramalamadingdong

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the crux of it. Anytime anyone makes the argument that the Indians are taking all the American jobs, I just think, fuck borders. Why should I care about the pursuit of prosperity of my fellow American over the pursuit of the Indian?

Get the fuck out of the US, do not come back. We no longer want fucks like you who sell your own country down the river on some ill informed notion that borders do not matter. The stupid, naive notion that people are not tribal animals is just another jew/lib lie. You don't think Sanjay there would sell you up the river for an extra bowl of rice for his family? People like you turned the US into a giant stinking brown shithole of third world fucks who have poor hygiene and even poorer appreciation and understanding for what it is like ot live in a civilized society of rules and laws.

You want to betray your own people, fine faggot. Go fucking do it someplace else and be thankful we didn't line your faggot ass up against the wall and send in a firing squad for treason.

How's that for why you should care you fucking piece of shit.

Re:I'm for it.

[shutdown -p now]

But how does that refute the OP's point? If you give, say, Chinese workers green cards, they will come to US and will work and compete in American market (which is as free as you as a nation want it to be), under American rules; rather than working from China under Chinese rules.

Re:I'm for it.

[shutdown -p now]

You misunderstand the nature of the problem. Until an H-1B gets a green card, he is essentially beholden to his employer, which means that employer can abuse him at will, and the employee cannot complain because if he does and loses his job, he loses the right to remain in the country. This, in turn, means that employers can get more bang for the buck from H-1Bs even by formally satisfying the requirements such as "no less than average wage" by simply working them harder. And this, in turn, makes American citizens less valuable employees, even for the same wage.

(Note, I'm not saying that all employers do this in practice; just that they can do it if they want.)

So this hurts both H-1Bs and American workers, and the only beneficiaries are American companies.

Re:I'm for it.

[shutdown -p now]

If they pay slave wages for H1B workers ("slum apartment building in Fremont full of imported H1B web coderz"), they're breaking the law. H1B workers legally must be paid within a certain percent of the average prevailing wage for an equivalent position in your area.

The problem is that enforcing this law is very hard.

Say they pay the prevailing wage, but significantly overwork their employees. As in, officially the working day is 9 to 5, but unofficially you're expected to work 12 hours daily, or else you get fired within a year. Employees have no recourse here because if they report it, they just lose their job and get kicked out of the country. So long as they perceive that slaving off for those12 hours as being worth the salary, or (more likely) worth the eventual green card, they will do just that.

To fix that, you have to make it much easier for employees on work visas (H1, L1 etc) to switch jobs without penalizing them - so that they fully participate in the job market - and don't kick them out immediately if they lose their job. Canada does it that way.

Re:I'm for it.

[shutdown -p now]

Are you seriously claiming that Indian taxi drivers in NYC are all resident aliens on H-1B visas?..

Re:I'm for it.

[shutdown -p now]

As a potential immigrant who's still deciding between US and Canada, I'm really interested in how you would propose to change the American system.

Right now I'm one step further in Canada goes since I have permanent resident status here (while still working and residing in US in practice). In US, I'm still at least a year away from green card, possibly more - it's very hard to predict - and then I'd be looking at 5 more years till citizenship. I'd say that from my perspective, the Canadian immigration track was more enticing for the simple reason that it is much more certain: come to country, work 1 year as a skilled professional, apply for permanent residence; wait for 1.5-2 years, get PR; wait for 3 more years, get citizenship. You can plan your life around that. In US all steps are "when it's done", and until you get your green card, you effectively have to assume that you can be asked to leave the country on any day (if, say, your employer decides to lay you off).

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Pay more money to hire an American or don't do the job.

Re:I'm for it.

[shutdown -p now]

In Microsoft, if you're an H-1B, they sponsor you for green card the moment you start working. So far as I know, most large technology companies (Google, Amazon etc) are similar in that regard. If they could bring employees in with a green card right away, they'd do it - if anything, it'd be cheaper.

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

You either hire an American or don't do the job in the US.

Re:I'm for it.

[Shompol]

I have not asked. However, as someone corrected down the thread, the law being enacted is not about H1B but about Green Cards. The end result is the same - they are opening the floodgates because the corporations asked (lobbied) for them to do it, and it is not just the PhD's who are coming.

Re:I'm for it.

[shutdown -p now]

A taxi driver cannot qualify for a green card either. About the only option he'd have is if he has a direct blood relative in US, and even then it's pretty complicated.

Main thing that lifting the quota for green cards does, is that people who are currently in the country on H1B (which have to be skilled workers, not taxi drivers) can get a green card faster, rather than having to wait for 5-10 years on H1B while doing so.

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Good luck to your quest of "deglobalizing" the economy in a globalized world!

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's set aside completely irrelevant analogies, such as your taxi drivers. We're talking about H1B visa program, which works only for people with college or advanced degrees.

As an AC down the thread pointed out, the law is about greencards and not H1B. The distinction is fuzzy though, as H1B is usually converted to greencard, and the effect is the same.

I can hardly imagine how the foreign H1Bs are replacing locally grown PhD. If they're worth a damn, the locals should stay on top. We have the best PhD education in the world, and this is why our graduate programs are filled +50% with foreigners.

My argument was not about PhD's but to point out that all types of work/levels of education are affected by this. The companies I worked at lately have very high proportion of H1B's working for them. Guess what did that do to wages. They are also in a kind of slavery situation, where they come to work on weekends because "only the best will get greencards" (official memo circulated Bloomberg L.P.), so it is hard to compete with them, unless I am willing to do the same.

Regarding the wages.. yes man, if you get paid $4000 a month but exactly the same job can be performed equally well by someone in Taiwan for $1000 a month, I don't see a reason for your job to exist here. However, the United States sets the pace and standards in technology. The other countries are just followers. If your job is threatened, this means it's time to update your skill or change career. This is a global economy and you can't sit still. Go get a new certification, a graduate degree or certificate, or attend a technical conference. It's not that hard to stay on top.

This is a very treacherous topic, and I cannot claim to understand it (I doubt anybody can). I will just throw a few arguments up in the air:

I. The life is cheaper in Taiwan (and India), so getting a comparable wage will put working Americans in poverty.

II. You would think that lower wages will bring down the product prices and cost of living? Not in the global economy, it will not! Which means that somebody pockets the difference between lower wages and stable (global) sales. Hello even deeper rift between rich and poor, the third world style!

----

"the best PhD education in the world" -- Unfortunately it is a myth to trap the naive

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Please get your facts right - h1b workers are way more expensive than local workers, in some cases almost double. L1 are cheaper(almost half) but not h1b. During recession L1s replace both h1b and local workers, h1bs first. And there is no cap on L1, green card for L1 requires no Labor approval. Want the jobs back then focus on L1. When h1bs are squeezed, Corporations look more towards outsourcing via L1 route. H1bs add money back into the economy. In the middle class, H1bs are the biggest contributors to Social Security and Tax.

You have no clue what you're talking about. First of all, the L1 comes in two flavors: L1B (skilled workers, comparable to H1B) and L1A (multinational managers). Second, in order to qualify one must already be an employee of the same company for at least one year. Third, for permanent residence (green card), L1B employees most certainly need Labor Certification. L1A employees do not, but that's also true for managers on H1B.

Get your facts straight before you come in and whine.

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck it. I guess since we're all just lazy, we should just move to Germany so we can have our six weeks of vacation a year rather than 12 days (which is still more than most of us actually get), while working 37 hour weeks. We'll all be rockstars there.

You want to come with us, HR guy? Because let's face it, HR isn't an actual job people have to study their whole lives to do. You're even more expendable than the rest of us.

I promise nobody will throw you overboard during the journey.

Re:I'm for it.

[couchslug]

The Canadian system seems much more logical.

Since the US is sliding into primitivism for a few decades at least (exemplified by the rise of the vicious superstitionist anti-immigration bigots of the Evangelical Right) it makes more sense to choose Canada.

After the Baby Boomers die off, there will likely be the same level of generational shift as when their predecessors aged out of power then got out of the way by dying. (I'm a Boomer, but that doesn't prevent me from observing how things work.)

Re:I'm for it.

[jrumney]

It would be a big incentive to attraact the cheapest of the best from around the world to the United States.

FTFY.

Re:I'm for it.

[sound vision]

If everybody worked at or above the median salary ... it wouldn't be the median salary anymore, would it?

Re:I'm for it.

[Lehk228]

if they want to move design and engineering to places with a UMADBRO? attitude towards industrial espionage so huwai can have a clone of their product out before the release date, have fun with that.

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Which is why the majority H-1Bs potentials actually avoid the US (specially from the EU)unless they have to or really want to (The US offers a larger market variety). And H-1B isn't for someone to mow your lawn. It's for a specialised employee with at least a bachelor's degree in X field. Imagine yourself having gone through higher-education only to be treated as a 2nd-rate citizen. Would you put up with that? You'd be suprised how many engineers don't put up with that and rather avoid the hassle altogether. So guess what you are getting stuck with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

"It's wonderful until the job market is flooded with 140k h1b workers working for absurdly low wages."

I had to wait months for an H-1B in my current job, which pays about $150k/year.

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

This of course is the cruxt of the matter and proven by the huge horde of cash at most large corps who hire H1B candidates.
Witness: Merck is at 95% foreigners...and they track this monthly. If they go below that figure, heads roll.
Wow. This is not about lack of talent, this is about keeping their costs down at the expensive of American wages.

Re:I'm for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

I would mod this into the stratosphere if I could.

If foreign workers could just leave when they are demanded to work long hours or negotiate higher wages, all the possible imbalances that cause complaints about fairness from all sides simply don't exist anymore. Anyone who doesn't think H1B workers are getting screwed because of their visa status is living in a fantasy world.

Re:I'm for it.

[Bill_the_Engineer]

Smart ass. The goal of these companies is to LOWER the median salary by hiring more workers who are willing to work for less.

gtfo

[Anonymous Coward]

Like we need more out of Country workers. Remove heads from ass, pay attention to WHATS HERE ALREADY

Would this apply to UK citizens ?

[polyp2000]

Would this mean it would be much easier for me (from the UK) to leave this screwed up country and move to the states?

Re:Would this apply to UK citizens ?

[donutface]

Would this mean it would be much easier for me (from the UK) to leave this screwed up country and move to the states?

No, it would make it harder for you to leave. I don't think UK workers make up 7% of the H1B, but other larger nations such as India certainly would.

Re:Would this apply to UK citizens ?

[91degrees]

If you're going to leave screwed up UK, why would you pick the US of all places!?

Re:Would this apply to UK citizens ?

[Anonymous Coward]

So you assume that no more than 7% of H1Bs come from India? Actually they discuss the next step - moving from H1B (non immigrant status) to Green Card (immigrant status) where some principles of diversity are in play.

Re:Would this apply to UK citizens ?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're going to leave screwed up UK, why would you pick the US of all places!?

I heard you have greener grass over there.

Re:Would this apply to UK citizens ?

[Anonymous Coward]

There are few countries in this world built on the principle that people can take care of themselves and I am not an American praising himself.

Re:Would this apply to UK citizens ?

[L4t3r4lu5]

You're off your trolley, mate. You want to leave the Little USA to go to the Big USA? Our government is so far up America's ass they both pick the same nose.

Still, I suppose we don't assassinate our own citizens on foreign soil... Yet.

Re:Would this apply to UK citizens ?

[Anonymous Coward]

As other pointed out. It would make it worse. However, why should you leave one screwed up country and go to another? It would be much more logical to fix the UK (as long as you are a citizen of that country) than moving to a country where you have no influence at all.

Re:Would this apply to UK citizens ?

[RoboJ1M]

I think it makes it harder because there won't be a cap on the other countries.
Now, instead of 7% reserved for the UK, there's 0% reserved for the UK.
Or something like that.
One more nail in the coffin of wanting to go work somewhere else one day.
All *I* want to do is just go work somewhere else for a bit.
I mean, who wants to only see snapshots of other countries on a 2 week holiday each year?
I dream of tech-job-circum-navigating the world on medium term visas, but the US is a big barrier to heading west.
Apparently it's much easier to go work in Canada.

I don't want a green card, I just want to come visit for 3 years! :(

Re:Would this apply to UK citizens ?

[drinkypoo]

The UK's screwed up, but not half as much as the US.

Get back to us when the UK has free speech, let alone the right that lets you keep it.

Re:Would this apply to UK citizens ?

[gtall]

Well, we do appreciate the work you do up there. As for Al Awlaki, the man declared war on the U.S., renounced his citizenship, distributed new and interesting ways to kill Americans, and was your basic Islamic nutjob. Killing was too good for him.

Re:Would this apply to UK citizens ?

[shutdown -p now]

Yes, they paint it every day.

Re:Would this apply to UK citizens ?

[isorox]

The UK's screwed up, but not half as much as the US.

Get back to us when the UK has free speech, let alone the right that lets you keep it.

Free speech in free speech zones?

When was the last time anyone in the U.S. used the 2nd ammemdment to defend the first? I see in the news plenty of people shooting fellow citizens for the wrong reasons, and very occasionally for self defence. I'm not sure where the NRA was when Or when U.S. citizens were prevented from exercising their inalienable writes to free speech, or when U.S. citizens were held without trial, or when U.S. citizens were subject to arbitrary search and siezure without a court order, or when U.S. citizens were denied a trial by a jury of their peers.

I guess the gun nuts are doing a good job at defending the 3rd amendment though.

140K

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that supposed to be a designator for a type of H-1B worker, or is it supposed to be 140,000? ...or are the workers just really really really cold?

Article is wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no per country cap on H1Bs. As usual, Computer world is trying to rile up anti immigrant/anti H1B sentiment.

There is a per country cap on Green Cards. This means that to get a green card, there are separate queues based on the country you were born in. Because of this cap, an engineer from India or China, if he applies in the advanced/special skills category that needs a Masters degree in engineering or science has to wait in the same job for more than 6 years to get a green card, while the guy from Iceland gets one in six months.

Re:Article is wrong

[toejam13]

I don't see a problem with this. Having a diverse immigrant workforce is a good thing. No single country should dominate our immigration system.

Re:Article is wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see a problem with this. Having a diverse immigrant workforce is a good thing. No single country should dominate our immigration system.

There a billion and a half Chinese and a billion and a quarter Indians on this Earth. Better get used to a lot more Chinese and Indians in the workforce.

Re:Article is wrong

[hooeezit]

As parent says, the article is utterly wrong. There are no per-country caps on H1B. The caps are on Green Cards (permanent residence) issued under certain categories, EB2 (Employment Based 2nd) being the most affected. The problem is that all countries, irrespective of their population, get a fixed ceiling of 7% of the total allocation of 140000 GCs issued per year. So, H1B workers from China and India have to wait at least 5 years, sometimes 10 years depending on the whims of USCIS, to get their Green Card. During that time, they have to continue being employed by the same company that originally filed the GC application, and in a materially similar position as at the time of filing. A major change in job description requires refiling. If you don't realize what that means, it makes those workers subservient to their employers. This has quite the opposite effect that you think it does - it doesn't help US workers any since these foreigners are already employed, but it gives the employers a position of power from which they can dictate terms on pay raises and promotions since they have the workers by the leash.

This is definitely hurting US tech companies because many excellent techies getting good salaries are leaving the US and setting up their own companies either in their home countries or in some other immigration-friendly country, Canada and Singapore being the top destinations. They would rather spend 2 years setting up their own company and getting permanent residence and a path to citizenship there than toil for 6+ years in fear with no certain timeline on when they'll become a permanent resident, much less a citizen of the US.

I myself am an example of a person who left the US after being there for 11 years. I was on H1B and making $120k/yr, so definitely not an underpaid worker. But I'm loathe to serve 6 years in a big corporation doing the same job day in and day out. So, I moved back to India, and I'm using my contacts in the industry to provide embedded software and hardware development services to small companies in the US. At the same time, I'm providing Industrial Automation consulting services to Indian companies and am currently working on a new data logging product for the South African market. So, the US lost the tax revenue it would have received. It lost a bunch of local jobs due to US companies outsourcing work to me in India. And it lost the new jobs I'd have created there if I'd continued building new products in the US.

So, you decide what works in US's national interests? Keeping people like me away from that country, or giving us an incentive to set up companies of our own? And if you claim that I'm a minority, that's an irrelevant argument. A very useful minority is still being alienated. I loved being in the US, and would happily go back if the immigration situation becomes easier and more deterministic. But I seriously don't see current US politics being conducive to ANYTHING that's of real value to the country.

Re:Article is wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

As a H1-B holder, I concur. There are no country quotas in H1B (well, except singapore which has 2000 quota). Even if we assume, they meant green cards and not H1Bs, the summary still does not make any sense. Why would they want monitoring of H1-B employers to remove country caps on green cards. May be, there is a new law on table to introduce country specific caps in H1-B, and the senator is proposing to drop the clause in exchange for audits? Can some read the article and clarify this?

Re:Article is wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see a problem with this. Having a diverse immigrant workforce is a good thing. No single country should dominate our immigration system.

I do see a problem with the law. It's a thinly veiled substitute for the Chinese Exclusion Act. If the EU should incorporate as a single federate state, Congress would reformulate the law some other way, maybe based on the latitude of your birthplace.

The current system is unfairly hurting the large Indian H1B contingency.

I'm saying this as one of the former beneficiaries of the racist scheme.

Re:Article is wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

I feel you. I had to buy my way into a green card (under EB5 category), because of this stupid process. And not many of my friends want to stay in the US now, as many see a lot of growth potential in India and China. More and more of my friends are moving back.

Re:Article is wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually they already are in the workforce - so the question is a bit more subtle: whether the world's best and brightest work at companies in the USA or whether the world's best and brightest work at companies in other countries.

If you're an American worker, then the question you should be asking is whether you want the world's best and brightest working with you to make your American company successful or whether you want the world's best and brightest working at foreign companies competing against you.

Re:Article is wrong

[toejam13]

It's a thinly veiled substitute for the Chinese Exclusion Act.

India and China have no natural right to dominate the US immigration system simple because each country alone has a greater population than the entire US.

To have a true melting pot, you need a diverse population. When you have a huge immigrant influx from a single region of the world, your melting pot will start to form lumps. That gives rise to a number of socioeconomic issues.

Re:Article is wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

The system needs an audit, you lost, but look at those who get through from the tier placement companies.

Re:Article is wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

India and China have no natural right to dominate the US immigration system simple because each country alone has a greater population than the entire US.

To have a true melting pot, you need a diverse population.

A few points:

• Indians are more diverse than Americans (different cultures, religions, languages, ...).
• So you're ok with Europeans dominating the US immigration system only because they have more seats in the UN?
• The Green Card quota is too small to cause abrupt demographic changes in the US.

Re:Article is wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

...than toil for 6+ years in fear with no certain timeline on when they'll become a permanent resident, much less a citizen of the US.

I'm an American (born and raised) scientist currently living and working in Asia and, after the way my non-American wife and her family have been treated by USCIS, I'm not at all eager to go back to the USA, either.

In my wife's case, we spent years waiting for all the various paperwork to clear - during which times my wife wasn't allowed to work, or go to school or even leave the USA. And it's totally arbitrary: even now that my wife has permanent residence (a "green card") USCIS could take it away for no reason and, at best, we'd have to start all over again.

And then her sister, who had a five year multiple entry visa, essentially applied for a renewal to do some traveling with us - and was denied - again totally arbitrary and with no due process or rule of law or possibility to appeal.

But I seriously don't see current US politics being conducive to ANYTHING that's of real value to the country.

Yeah, I voted for Obama hoping things might improve - but from what I've seen they've actually gotten worse. I sure won't be voting Democratic this year.

Well, anyway, I can always hope that some other country will invade and occupy the USA and straighten it out. :)

Re:Article is wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

The tier placement companies and their H1 employees are lying through their teeth, under oath, to get this done. As someone who considered being part of this, I would never recommend anyone undertake this.

Re:Article is wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't want to work in China if you're bitching about the US process. I live and work in China right now and I have no job security, employers are often times even more cut throat than the ones in the US and when you lose your job you lose your right to live in the country. The pay is going to depend a great deal on what you're doing, but the chances are good that you'll end up spending a much larger amount of time dealing with bureaucracy as that's one of the ways the government has of ensuring that there are enough jobs to go around.

Don't get me wrong, it's a wonderful place to live, but if you're concern is immigration regulations, China is probably not any better than the US is.

Re:Article is wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

I was referring to my Chinese and Indian friends. They have the right to be in the country as citizens, and they know the system well to get around bureaucracy (they also have very good experience dealing with bureaucracy as part of their F1 visa process, OPT process and H1 visa process).
 
Most of my immigrant friends were, once, my grad school classmates.

Re:Article is wrong

[bickerdyke]

Actually they already are in the workforce - so the question is a bit more subtle: whether the world's best and brightest work at companies in the USA or whether the world's best and brightest work at companies in other countries.

The best and brightest will usually find a similar job in their home countries and feel no pressure to emmigrate. (Except perhaps highly specialized research where you have to make up your mind if you want to apply at CERN or Fermilab)

If you're an American worker, then the question you should be asking is whether you want the world's best and brightest working with you to make your American company successful or whether you want the world's best and brightest working at foreign companies competing against you.

Difficult question... I don't think I would want the best and brightest of the world competing with me for my next promotion.....

Re:Article is wrong

[Kergan]

This is definitely hurting US tech companies because many excellent techies getting good salaries are leaving the US and setting up their own companies either in their home countries or in some other immigration-friendly (...).

So, you decide what works in US's national interests? Keeping people like me away from that country, or giving us an incentive to set up companies of our own? And if you claim that I'm a minority, that's an irrelevant argument. A very useful minority is still being alienated.

So true... I was advised in no uncertain terms that I was playing on a level field with Mexican goat herders. The US is losing entrepreneurs and scientists, one unimpressed candidate immigrant at the time.

Re:Article is wrong

[dark12222000]

You are completely ignorant of history. Immigration has NEVER occurred in small steady flows - It has always occurred in large chunks from this country or that country. Just like a good fondue, the chunks melt down and get absorbed by the time the next one comes.

Re:Article is wrong

[dcblogs]

The story is correct, but the Slashdot blurb confused the two. The Senate is considering a bill approved by the House to eliminate the per country caps on green cards. Sen. Grassley put a hold on that bill, but is attempting to work out a compromise. He will allow removal of the green cap limit in exchange for giving the Labor Dept. more power to conduct audits on H-1B use.

Re:Article is wrong

[Ora*DBA]

How, exactly, did you compile the list of industry contacts and relationships that helped you get your business off the ground in India? Working in India? Obviously not. You are yet another ingrate incapable of attributing your success to anyone but yourself.

I am a skilled, certified, educated American citizen who has seen his consulting rates steadily eroded because of the waves of H-1B workers brought in by big consulting companies and Fortune 500 corporations. I see 'mafias' of nationals form in these companies, promoting their own over more deserving workers (not necessarily US citizens, either). I have seen, time and time again, Indian or Chinese consultants taking a lower rate to get a spot, then telephoning fifty or a hundred friends to get recipes to actually attempt to do their job. Hiring managers know this is going on, but do it anyway to keep costs down.

The problem is not necessarily the H-1B program, it is the abuse of these regs and the willingness of US corporate management to tolerate the lower-quality workforce in order to hit their quarterly numbers. Me? I'm getting steadily more profitable trading currency pairs. That's my future. Corporate Amerika can go to h*ll.

Re:Article is wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

On EB3, everyone waits 6+ years. The problem is not the by country caps, but the fact that there are caps at all: Get PERM, get a well enough paying job, get visa.

Re:Article is wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

He never said anything that would imply "incapable of attributing your success to anyone but yourself", you butthurt fuck. He's saying that the clusterfuck that is the current US Immigration process forced his hand; he had to leave because of excessive uncertainty about his future. Quoting:

I myself am an example of a person who left the US after being there for 11 years. I was on H1B and making $120k/yr, so definitely not an underpaid worker. But I'm loathe to serve 6 years in a big corporation doing the same job day in and day out. So, I moved back to India... ...I loved being in the US, and would happily go back if the immigration situation becomes easier and more deterministic. But I seriously don't see current US politics being conducive to ANYTHING that's of real value to the country.

Re:Article is wrong

[aaarrrgggh]

Spouse green cards are really a pain, likely because of the level of abuse historically. The probationary green card is really only the first two years though. When my wife came over she got an education visa, then we had a lot of fun when we tried to do a border run to get a tourist visa after that expired. After that, it was a fiancé visa which was a whole other nightmare. It took three years to get a proper SSN.

Which is what pisses me off in the whole discussion of illegal labor. What the hell else do you expect if you make a system that requires surviving two to three years before you can work legally? Even with a sponsor, that is a good bit of money where an extra $10k per year can make a huge difference.

Re:Article is wrong

[toejam13]

I am completely aware of history. Many of those chunks from a century past are still stubbornly melting down.

Re:Article is wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree, we need a more diverse (i.e. 50% Hispanic) America.

Re:Article is wrong

[ThatsMyNick]

Thank you. The whole thing finally makes some sense!

We need this for politicians too!

[Anonymous Coward]

Instead of fighting against this trend I've decided it should be applied to politicians as well. Bring in some real talent where leadership is concerned and allow these H1-B Visa holders to run our country as well, why not? At least in other countries other than the U.S. we have all seen their respective leaders turn around worse economic situations than we have here in the U.S. so give them a shot to turn our economy around. At this point I'd like to see more Indian, Chinese, and Russian influence in the White House rather than the self-defeating jingoistic ranting that is polluting our current administration. Lets get down to the numbers and finally do something with as much help as we can get. I refuse to accept that based upon ethnicity that these cultures are just better at IT and development and are incapable of leadership (an idea that has been reprinted in our U.S. textbooks for years).

Re:We need this for politicians too!

[Hognoxious]

Instead of fighting against this trend I've decided it should be applied to politicians as well. Bring in some real talent where leadership is concerned and allow these H1-B Visa holders to run our country as well, why not?

Already been done.

At least that's what Donald Trump says.

Re:We need this for politicians too!

[thoughtsatthemoment]

No, the solution to fight bias is not to elect even more biased people (believe me, they are). The USA needs more George Washingtons, but that kind of person doesn't have a specific nationality.

Because

[Anonymous Coward]

Because there's no such thing as to many indian's.

Re:Because

[hooeezit]

But there *is* such a thing as too illiterate to use one's own native language properly.

You, sir, probably wanted to use the adverb "too" which conveys the meaning of "to an excessive extent or degree" and the plural (capitalized, since it's a proper noun) Indians as opposed to the incorrectly spelled possessive "indian's".

Yes, I'm Indian, thank you.

Re:Because

[Anonymous Coward]

ha well I'm korean so fuck you.

Re:Because

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone down modded you. Thats what you get for feeding the trolls.

Re:Because

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, I'm Indian, thank you.

I need you to come to my cabin and show me again which folder the vee-eye editor is in. Please do the needful.

Annual audit... that's hysterical.

[Maxo-Texas]

Did so much good at the banks and financial institutes.

Simply Solution, High Minimum Salary for H1B's

[ad454]

The simplest solution is to raise the minimum salary for all H1B employees to something more reasonable, like between $100,000 to $150,000, depending on the area and profession. (Note this is a minimum, the maximum is open.)

That way companies would be forced to pay the extra amount for foreign workers if they really are needed, and be incentivize to first look for local talent and/or provide training.

And H1B's recipients would stop being considered as cheap low-cost labour putting downwards pressure on salaries.

Re:Simply Solution, High Minimum Salary for H1B's

[VortexCortex]

The simplest solution is to raise the minimum salary for all H1B employees to something more reasonable, like between $100,000 to $150,000

I see a flaw...
A gallon of milk will just cost $40, and that $20k minimum wage slave will make $200k.
...absolute values don't account for inflation well.

Re:Simply Solution, High Minimum Salary for H1B's

[imbusy]

Isn't that how it already works? The employer has to offer a salary that is above average of what the standard is. Foreign workers on H1-B visas ARE more expensive. But maybe they are willing to work in a lower position than they normally should so all in all they cost less. BTW, I'm someone who missed this year's H1-B quota by a few days myself.

Re:Simply Solution, High Minimum Salary for H1B's

[Anonymous Coward]

The minimum is currently 60th percentile wages for the job they are in. The problem is that this is unenforceable for a lot of reasons. How do you define the job they are in? That's the first problem. The second is that if you bring in a bunch of people, it's going to lower the wages across the board.

I think the real problem is that there's no enforcement. I'd like H1Bs to be allowed to sue for back wages if they were paid under the minimum. Corporations would think twice about hiring H1Bs for cheap.

Re:Simply Solution, High Minimum Salary for H1B's

[Anonymous Coward]

This is only for the H1B employees. This would just move them closer to everyone else. Inflation is the same for everyone, H1B salaries only for H1B workers. So your flaw is not applicable at all.

Re:Simply Solution, High Minimum Salary for H1B's

[khallow]

That's all nice until some administration inflates the currency by a factor of ten in order to satisfy some campaign donors.

Re:Simply Solution, High Minimum Salary for H1B's

[Anonymous Coward]

Feedback loop, and what's more people on H-1B visas aren't in any position to demand raises or additional perks. Chances are that if you're not giving them the ones that other employees get that they won't complain. What's more, they'll probably work crap hours and settle for the pay that results. I'm betting they won't use their vacation or sick time or at least do so less often than citizens would.

Wage is only one dimension of salary and being a foreign worker in any country leaves you in a vulnerable position when it comes to enforcing your rights.

After a while you'll find that the wage for that particular sector isn't increasing quite as much as it had been prior to the practice.

Re:Simply Solution, High Minimum Salary for H1B's

[roman_mir]

There is no such thing as a 'wage slave'. Everybody is free to attempt their own business or live on charity.

Re:Simply Solution, High Minimum Salary for H1B's

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe that works in the valley, or seattle, but go look at how many Americans make those kinds of salaries in the Midwest. 10 years of experience, and you might break 6 figures, maybe. New graduates make about half. If you force their salaries to be that out of whack, in essence you are saying that you don't want them, period.

Where were the people from the other thread that said nobody was against legal immigration?

Re:Simply Solution, High Minimum Salary for H1B's

[Anonymous Coward]

Forget information tech, start a dairy farm!

More seriously, have you seen the $104.99 CAD case of bottled water and the $28.54 head of cabbage? Such extortion exists already in a certain part of the world.

Re:Simply Solution, High Minimum Salary for H1B's

[swb]

But don't employers routinely game this system by creating jobs for which there is no reasonable salary average in the real world, or using job descriptions with low(er) salary descriptions and then putting the H1-Bs to work for real jobs with higher salary averages?

To me this entire "salary average" system seems easily abused to get what employers want, desperate serfs willing to work for any wage.

Re:Simply Solution, High Minimum Salary for H1B's

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course! You don't have to be a wage slave when you can be a debt slave!

Re:Simply Solution, High Minimum Salary for H1B's

[roman_mir]

Right, or you can SAVE some money while working and attempt to start a business without asking anybody for any loans.

Of-course if you do get a loan and start a business, you'll either succeed or fail, but while you are supposed to pay the loan back with interest, unless you can pull it off, it's not your money you are risking - it's the money of the investors.

And thus you are risking some of your collateral (hopefully the banks aren't stupid enough to give you a loan without any collateral) and you are risking a bunch of your creditors' cash.

So when was it that slave owners gave their slaves money to start business while risking losing that money?

You don't even understand meaning of words.

Re:Simply Solution, High Minimum Salary for H1B's

[Anonymous Coward]

Hello, roman_mir here.

The free market fixes everything and there's no such thing as a wage slave!

Also, God exists, you can pull yourself up by your bootstraps, and you can save money when you're already poor!

You can do this by hoping you never get sick; that your car that you rely on to get to work never breaks down; or that one of many things on a long long list doesn't happen, destroying your pitiful savings in the process.

http://playspent.org/

Re:Simply Solution, High Minimum Salary for H1B's

[roman_mir]

I am an atheist, you dumbass, and here is a free advice for you: buy your own insurance...

unless you are in USA, then you don't need to buy health insurance, just pay the fines, it'll be cheaper than paying premiums, the gov't will subsidise it for you.

Re:Simply Solution, High Minimum Salary for H1B's

[Adaeniel]

I never claimed you weren't an atheist, you dumbass. The point of what I said was to highlight how absurd the fictions that you believe are.

Re:Simply Solution, High Minimum Salary for H1B's

[Anonymous Coward]

I suppose I'm also free to live under a bridge.

Re:Simply Solution, High Minimum Salary for H1B's

[Anonymous Coward]

Not if your area of expertise has little activity or work available.
What a stupid statement.....

The Real Shortage

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no shortage of available talent. The shortage is found in the pool of intelligent, informed voters who will elect honest representatives that can parse the corporate lobbying for deceptive portrayals of the real labor picture. Perhaps the only way to get the suits to pony up living wages for domestic talent and stop the exploitation of immigrants would be to place a five-year moratorium on all H1B visas to allow unskewed market forces to drive change in corporate hiring and compensation. True, it is strong and bitter medicine, but short of government-imposed wage minimums in STEM professions, what other alternatives are there? Then again, maybe I'm just letting Utopian dreams cloud my rational cynicism.

It's craziness!

[catmistake]

Why should workers with flu-like symptoms have any such legislation? I don't care what country they come from, if they're sick they should stay home and get better, otherwise pandemic is inevitable.

master's and PhDs should not be needed for the job

[Joe_Dragon]

master's and PhDs should not be needed for the job.

Re:I'm for it. - ABSOLUTE FALSEHOOD

[Anonymous Coward]

Gates himself (check the audio archive for his speeches) said he'd rather hire
foreigners than U.S. citizens. And no, U.S. corporations are provided fininacial
incentives to hire Hr1B workers - in addition, assuming they stay in the U.S less
than (don't remember the # of days), they do NOT pay Federal income tax. So,
it does NOT cost MS 30% more to hire non-U.S. citizens; that's complete nonsense.

CAPTCHA = charcoal (why yes, I'm feeling a little burnt)

Or how about experienced workers?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

That, or companies could actually take on university graduates like they used to do, train them,....

Or get an experienced worker who's done alot of the work before but maybe in a different language or on a different platform?

As an experienced C++ programmer, it took me at most 3 hours to learn Java's syntax AND how to navigate around the libraries.

C#? Picked it up immediately.

I think hiring managers are the ones who need to realize that their particular technology or platform isn't all that special or any harder than any other platform or language.

Those laundry lists that HR has? The managers ordered them to do it. Remeber kids, HR works for management - don't let anyone tell you different.

And then there's the first line management cockiness that I see way too often You'll see it here. For example, folks saying that they can't get anyone qualified - too many "wannabes". WTF is a "wannabe"?

Or having problems getting folks because they can't find someone to answer some "key" question they ask like "Where do you see yourself in five years?", "What is your favorite IDE?" or "What kind of projects do you in your spare time?"

That last one is ridiculous. Uh, when I've been working 50+ hours a week (which is the norm now), the last thing I want or can do is go home and code. I NEED to workout, spend time with my wife, and relax with a movie, good book, or cook a meal for said loved ones. Code?

Oh wait, you want a 20 something or an immigrant with no ties and no life who have nothing better to do than sit in front of the computer.

Got it. I finally figured it out.

most college are not setup to be part time

[Joe_Dragon]

most college are not setup to be part time class part time work. In-less you are working nights.

Now the tech schools and community college do offer night classes (but even then the time tables for classes may still may you have to take some day classes)

No that classes 20 hours a week needs to be a apprenticeship system where work and class time is part of the over all time table not 2 differnt party's having there own time tables.

Re:most college are not setup to be part time

[spiffmastercow]

most college are not setup to be part time class part time work. In-less you are working nights.

Now the tech schools and community college do offer night classes (but even then the time tables for classes may still may you have to take some day classes)

No that classes 20 hours a week needs to be a apprenticeship system where work and class time is part of the over all time table not 2 differnt party's having there own time tables.

It's called an internship, and it works really well. Unfortunately, most universities don't want to bother setting them up for students.

The H-1B is a non-immigrant visa in the US

[ksandom]

For those who also didn't know, it's:

The H-1B is a non-immigrant visa in the United States under the Immigration and Nationality Act, section 101(a)(15)(H). It allows US employers to temporarily employ foreign workers in specialty occupations. If a foreign worker in H-1B status quits or is dismissed from the sponsoring employer, the worker must either apply for and be granted a change of status to another non-immigrant status, find another employer (subject to application for adjustment of status and/or change of visa), or leave the US.

Re:The H-1B is a non-immigrant visa in the US

[thoughtsatthemoment]

But in practice it is treated as a dual purpose visa. The significance is that such a visa holder can have the intention to immigrate. For other non-immigrant visa holders such an intention could cause deny of visa at request, such as F1.

sure,sure

[superwiz]

Companies should face an audit. How about the federal government itself? It's not supposed to hire non-citizens, so it hires "consulting firms" which import programmers on H1-B visas for the sole of purpose of cutting down the salaries they can pay them. This isn't hearsay, by the way. I had a recruiters admit this to me in plain text (no hints... just plain text). He told me that he'd rather import foreign programmers at subsistence wages than hire Americans at twice the pay. All he has to do is deal with $5k of fees for H1-B visa. I would love for someone to come out and argue that "no, recruiters don't do that because it's illegal". That's kind of my point. They are doing it. Federal contractors are not required to hire citizens.... which is fine. But they are contractors in name only. The federal government doesn't follow it's own guidelines that a full time employee who both reports and is directly supervised by a full time employee cannot be deemed an outside contractor.

Re:sure,sure

[thoughtsatthemoment]

Passing laws, or guidelines, whatever the name, that are not always enforced gives politicians the power to decide when, where, and to whom, to enforce the law. Albert Einstein once commented on this and called it a great injustice.

Abolish the H3B Program

[Eravnrekaree]

The H1B program should be eliminated. Only corporations love it because it allows them to import slave third world labor. Look, this is outrageous when we are importing these people when we have so many Americans in IT who cannot find work. It is infuriating that while so many Americans cannot find work we are importing workers. Furthermore, there are plenty more americans can be quickly trained to do the kinds of IT jobs that corporations need, I think we need to have more apprentiships and on the job training programs.

Another reason that H1B programs should be eliminated is for the benefit of the source country, to stop the brain drain. These countries need highly skilled people to innovate there and build their economy. The US already has plenty of human resources and does not need more.

I am all for helping the third world develop its own industry through international industrial aid for those countries. I am opposed to all immigration as it tends to harm both the source and destination countries.

I also think we need to preserve the unique qualities of the populations of a country and for countries to develop their own industrial know how and capabilities, and as well their own cultures and preserve the unique ethnic nature of countries. Immigration threatens unique countries and cultures with dilution. It is not a good solution to anything, its a problem.

The right solution is for highly skilled workers to remain in their own countries and help develop their own countries industrially, if needed with industrial development aid.

Re:Abolish the H3B Program

[thoughtsatthemoment]

I am opposed to all immigration as it tends to harm both the source and destination countries.

If you were born and raised in the USA I'd be very curious to know why you think like that.

Re:Abolish the H3B Program

[Anonymous Coward]

You forget that people should live their lives for themselves and not for the sake of the country they happened to be born in.

"These countries need highly skilled people to innovate there and build their economy."
Yeah, and most of them are not offering competitive enough salaries and benefits to keep them. Therefore, people there should simply accept worse work conditions? Or should they try going somewhere else where their worth is better recognized?

It's really strange that you think people should simply live for their countries. If you are interested in "preserving the unique qualities of the populations of different countries" then you, the interested party, should contribute towards that. Maybe you should donate so that someone has a better salary and better working conditions in another country, so that they won't think of emigrating. But you have no right to tell foreigners that they should stay where they are in order to preserve your idea of how the world should work.

To all those defending the H-1B program

[zerofoo]

Many here are defending the program as a "global competitive market" for jobs, and that we should be able to import workers no matter the economic conditions.

If other countries were so welcoming of our unemployed, I would agree with the sentiment.

Would China be as welcoming to the scores of our unemployed in the manufacturing sector? Would China even allow them into the country? I suspect not.

If our unemployment levels are high, we should not import workers for ANY reason. Market forces can fix this problem easily. A labor shortage drives up labor cost, that encourages more people into the field.

The companies I have worked for used H-1B workers to increase the available labor pool - that increased supply pushed down wages - basic economic stuff.

-ted

Re:To all those defending the H-1B program

[Anonymous Coward]

If other countries were so welcoming of our unemployed, I would agree with the sentiment.

Then why are you arguing against the program instead for only allowing H-1Bs for residents of other countries with similar programs? Sounds like an excuse to me.

If our unemployment levels are high, we should not import workers for ANY reason. Market forces can fix this problem easily.

If business cannot find suitable workers within the unemployed workforce in your country, the market will fix the problem in a way you probably wouldn't like.

The companies I have worked for used H-1B workers to increase the available labor pool - that increased supply pushed down wages - basic economic stuff.

So the system is broken and being abused. That's a good reason to fix the loopholes, but it's not an argument against the system itself.

Not another one

[Anonymous Coward]

They are breaking the law.... Boy, that keeps those corporations in line. That must be why we can get rid of the FDA, EPA, etc, of course, why did we need them in the first place?

a possible fix for this

[RobertLTux]

1 begin taxing all non-citizens say 25% on funds sent to other countries (to be collected by The Transfer Agent)
2 charge companies an extra 15% on labor taxes for non-citizens
3 on a related issue have random audits of companies to force them to have papers on all employees (immigration shows up at the work site and starts matching faces to paperwork)

In short we need to have an EMPLOY LOCAL movement.

i would at the same time offer some flexibility on wages if it can be proven that the non cash benefits properly compensate for a lower cash wage. (not really an issue with H-1Bs but its related).

Wrong summary

[Anonymous Coward]

What Senator Grassley is holding up is a bill that would eliminate per country limits on green cards, not H1B. There are 140k employment based greencards issued each year and 85000 H1B. The problem with the 140k greencards is that no country can get more than 10k per year (about 7%), so the line for Indians and Chinese builds up each year as you have more than 10k coming in on H1B and L1 every year from India and China each. Even the 10k greencards are divided into categories based on the job requirements and skills of the employee (EB-1 for executives/PhDs, Eb-2 for 5+ years exp or MS degree, EB3 for Bachelors). The expected wait for someone from India coming in today for a job requiring only a Bachelor's degree is something like 30 years not 5 or 10 years. So, if someone has a PhD but the employer says the job requires a Bachelors only, that person could wait 30 years for a greencard with severe restrictions on their freedom to innovate outside their job. You can only imagine how that kills the entrepreneurial spirit.

Re:Wrong summary

[Shompol]

kills the entrepreneurial spirit

Yes, because we want to EVERYONE from India to come AT THE SAME TIME! Do you realize that US citizens will quickly become a minority here? I am not even beginning to imagine what that will do to unemployment. Let's just say that "Occupy Wall Street" might shift to an armed uprising.

Re:Wrong summary

[Anonymous Coward]

The cap of 140k is not being removed, so the number of people coming in is not going to increase. What the 7% cap is doing currently is putting people with Masters degrees and lots of experience from India on restrictions and allowing lower skilled workers from other countries to immigrate quickly, just because they come from smaller countries. How can that be good for the US? If HR 3012 passes it will restore sanity to the system and free up the most skilled workers first regardless of where they are born. That will only lead to increased innovation and jobs for the rest.

Time for a new government

[Baldrson]

389-to-15 in the House of "Representatives"?

This is, in no way, "representative" government.

Cheap Labor ?? Wake up ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously I read the comments and I feel you guys, most likely pure "Americans" (I write it like that because you are not really an ethnic group, it started as colonies from Europe in case you forgot), are really living in a different country.

To get an H1B the employer needs to prove that the employee is offered a normal wage for the area or they won't get the Labor Certification.

In my case I'm have a PhD + 1 year experience, I got offered 110k fixed salary + 30k relocation + 20k of stock (RSU not stock option) so I guess I'm not really underpaid (for reference I'm in VA).

Most of my friends/colleagues here in the US have 100k+ salaries, with the same profile in CA it would be 130k base salary.

So guys how much are you making if a young PhD gets 110k in VA and 130k in CA, I'd really like to know your salary because glassdoor says that me and my friends are in the higher range....

Please take the Fortune 1000

[Baldrson]

The US did just fine prior to the fraudulently passed Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965. It did so fine, in fact, that people like you want to come here.

Stay the fuck out of my country.

Here's what I'll be willing to offer you instead of my country:

The whole Fortune 1000.

As long as you guys keep your nepotistic hiring practices in India we can rebuild our economy.

The way things are going, its all going down the shitter anyway because of you guys and your nepotism. You may as well take it. Just stay the fuck out so we can rebuild a society based on individualistic genotypes.

Re:Please take the Fortune 1000

[shutdown -p now]

The way things are going, its all going down the shitter anyway because of you guys and your nepotism. You may as well take it. Just stay the fuck out so we can rebuild a society based on individualistic genotypes.

Are you seriously claiming that individualism and nepotism are traits that originate in one's genotype?..

Re:Please take the Fortune 1000

[Baldrson]

More than that, I'm claiming that it varies by genotype of nation of origin.

Re:Please take the Fortune 1000

[shutdown -p now]

So a racist then. Thanks for clearing that up.

Re:Please take the Fortune 1000

[Baldrson]

Obviously, if reality is racist, we can safely ignore it as no one will want to socialize with it.

Re:I'm for it. - ABSOLUTE FALSEHOOD

[e065c8515d206cb0e190]

This is a false statement.

H1Bs pay Federal Income Tax regardless of the duration of their stay. What you might be interested in knowing:
- if you work 1 week / year in the US, you're unlikely to reach the minimum annual income to be taxed, regardless of whether you're citizen, H1B or GC
- under F1 w/ EAD (note, not H1B) you do not pay specific taxes (IIRC, Social Security and FICA) but you do pay Federal (and State) Income Tax

signed,
former F1, former H1B, proud "stealer" of American jobs

US GAO reports only 7% of H1B work at advanced

[walterbyrd]

levels.

The overwhelming majority of H1Bs are ordinary people, working at ordianry jobs.

Why do you think there is no requirement that a company consider US workers? Why do you think it okay to replace a US worker with a cheaper H1B?

The H1B is used to replace US workers with foreign indentured servants.

Well if you don't want me

[Anonymous Coward]

H1B here. I'm currently in the Bay Area on 6 figures, I can work anywhere in Europe, Australia or New Zealand today I have done in the past as well. My company transferred me over here via H1B due to some issues on the L1 & to retain me (I enjoy the travel and have been working there for 4 years). If you want to keep someone like me out that's fine, with my skill set passport(s) & experience I can go benefit several other economies.

I'm sure a fresh grad would be able to fill my position no sweat since...

push for micro-nations?

[k6mfw]

There are people planning to get a barge or an old cruise ship, park it a little more than 12 miles off coast of USA. This vessel will have tech companies employing people so they don't have to deal with H-1B visas (which are quite difficult to get). Tourist visas don't have as many hoops to jump through so these people can go back and forth to shore. Stargate Atlantis, ultimate offshore micro-nation... maybe that's why they have that instead of placing a SG in Colorado (don't have to deal with visas for space aliens).

Race to the bottom, abetted by the US Gov't.

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's what's really going on :

1) The corporations control the government.

2) The workers from outside the US save the corporations billions.

3) The US government doesn't care about its citizens, it cares about its masters,
          which are the corporations.

4) When the government doesn't respect its own citizens enough to make sure they
        are not screwed out of the chance to work by some person who is not a US citizen,
        the US citizen had better get used to a dramatic reduction in lifestyle, because the
        people in the US are being forced toward the kind of lifestyle found in other countries.

5) Voting won't change a thing. Sending all the foreign workers back where they came from will.

It's a fucking terrible idea.

[Ziggitz]

It's another excuse to not fix our failed education system, with dismal results for k-12 and crushing debt for college graduates. When we artificially inflate the skill worker pool with skilled foreign workers with temporary visas. We are accruing a massive educational debt in this country and as soon as the foreign workers find better opportunities eslewhere, that bubble is going to burst and we're going to have a serious problem.

We need to stop and recognize that fucking over our own citizens and take workers that other countries spent the time and resources to train and educate, is not sustainable. We need to invest in our own citizen's education and this bill is a measure to put that off and make the problem worse.

grow up son...

[publiclurker]

just because you feel entitled to have everyone else pay for your health doesn't mean that us grownups appreciate being used as your own personal piggybank.

for tech internship should not force university

[Joe_Dragon]

for tech internship should not force you to be at a university.

You should be able to be tech school, community college (most are not 4 years ones), some kind of apprenticeship system. Where you can work days with classes build around the work not you can't take the internship as math 104 is only offed at times that don't work. That needs to be more a class plan with less useless filler classes and core classes that are more job skill based.

OK CS is NOT IT and the class load should be setup that way by cutting out some of the theory classes and adding in apprenticeship you can take a 4 year CS down to a 2-3 year plan that give people real job skills and work along with the time in school and the work place gets people who have the skills to do the job and also can have a plan to say have people who are working there take classes with being tied down to the full time college plan. AS the tech field also needs on going education (master, phd ,ect) is a very poor fit for that but drop in classes are not.

All people are not cut for college but can do apprenticeship, internships (not tied to being in school), and drop in classes.

Re:for tech internship should not force university

[spiffmastercow]

I had an internship that actually involved some CS work.. Had to reverse engineer an obscure compression scheme, code some high performance data processing stuff, write a PCL5 emulator, etc.

Re:for tech internship should not force university

[Joe_Dragon]

Ok there is some real CS work to do but others parts of IT do not need it and let's say desktop / Server / network work is NOT CS and needs stuff that you can't learn in a class room. Lot's of it needs on the job training and that internship / apprenticeship should be on it's own or maybe part of tech school / community college class load. NOT a 4 year college.

Re:for tech internship should not force university

[spiffmastercow]

Yeah, I'm in full agreement that a BSCS is not needed or even useful for admin work. I'd say it shouldn't be a requirement for dev work either, though a dev with no degree needs to make sure and fill in the theory gaps or he'll run into some issues down the road.

Re:for tech internship should not force university

[Joe_Dragon]

Ok they should be able to fill it in on there own and not on the more fixed college time table. And they should be able to skip all the filler stuff like art history, music and other NON tech stuff that comes with the AA, AS, BS and BA.

oh really?

[Walt Dismal]

I would swear all 140K of those H1-Bs come from India, and they all live in Sunnyvale with their pregnant wives, and they all shop at Costco on Saturdays, and they all work at Intel, AMD, Cisco, Juniper, or HP. Only 7% from one country my ass.

These issues aren't hard to fix at all.

[Anonymous Coward]

It is amazing the level of stupidity we have when it comes to these issues when in reality they could be resolved with relative ease.

They say they have a lack of talented US labor in a high highly specialized market. Fine then force them to pay a minimum of 20% OVER the median wage for the job in the area they are in with a overall minimum wage of $100,000 a year whichever is greater. If the person is working there for more than 6 months, they are required by law for the company pay for them to become a citizen, even if they were to leave that job in the process.

Kinda like how they keep complaining over the illegal immigrants when they are just as easily fixed with 2 laws.
1) Any company caught knowingly or willfully unknowingly employing illegal immigrants shall have their management/owners who knew or willfully remained ignorant of their status imprisoned in no less than a medium security prison for no less than 5 years. If they were paying them below the median income of the area they are in they will face no less than 15 years in no less than a medium security prison.

2) Any illegal who turns themselves in along with their employers who are employing them shall receive 1 year of free housing and food all fees of becoming a citizen waived and a temporary visa that lasts for that 1 year period so they may job hunt while becoming a legal citizen. Also, they application will be fast tracked so it will be done within that 1 year period.

There ya go, no employer would hire them as it is now in the best interests of the illegal to turn their employer in. Then as the job market for them shuts down, so does their influx. All you have to do with a corporation is set what is in their best interests in alignment with what is in the best interest with everyone as a whole, might not be the easiest thing to do on a lot of things but it is pretty easy to do with these 2 things.

Triffin dilemma

[NewYork]

If https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triffin_dilemma is fixed the demand for H1Bs will be reduced.

Social mobility

[NewYork]

US/EU work visa and outsourced IT/BPO projects/exports must be pegged to Human rights/Caste system/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility in CHINDIA/rest of the world.
Otherwise your middle class will be destroyed.
http://www.rediff.com/business/slide-show/slide-show-1-tech-apple-workers-forced-to-sign-no-suicide-pledge/20110504.htm
http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/sep/29/un-says-indias-caste-system-a-human-rights-abuse.htm

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