Slashdot Mirror
University Sues Student For Graduating Early
"A student who attended a private German economics and business university is being sued by the school because he finished his degree too quickly. Marcel Pohl finished 60 exams in 20 months, completing 11 semesters worth of work in only 3. The school says it is due an extra €3,000 for lost income because, "its fees are the total price for the studies, independent of how long the studies last." "When I got the lawsuit, I thought it couldn't be true. Performance is supposed to be worth something," Pohl said.
If they wanted to charge by the credit hour, they should have done so.
why not go all the way and say for X cash you get X degree.
As they don't seem to care about any ones Performance just the cash.
Nah, because they'll want you to pay more if you take longer.
Performance is supposed to be worth something,
It is, it's worth €3,000, now pay up.
Slashdot:
- Find silly lawsuits
- Post inflammatory articles about them
- Wait until all the nerds scream in self-righteous rage
- Profit!
- Repeat, repeat again...
Actually, it seems to work pretty well.
Well, let's just say my wife would have lawyered up long ago!
... what do you expect? America is infested with "business" and "management" degree-holders who don't contribute anything, don't produce anything, don't create anything, and yet have managed to worm their way into control of a substantial portion of the economy; and with schools that cater to those hoping to join their ranks. I'm not at all surprised that Germany has the same problem, or that such people turn on each other at the least opportunity. No honor among thieves.
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
The kid works for a Bank now, if anybody knows anything about financial loopholes, its the Bank.
except that Stanford's policy makes it clear in advance that is, basically, a tuition requirement for a degree
Yet another company trying to legislate itself a profit.
As far as the law *should* be concerned, unless the university had in its contract terms restricting how quickly you can graduate or something to that effect, there's no case here. If they didn't think of that, it's their own damn fault for writing a contract with a "loophole" (although I'd say that graduating that quickly by actually doing all the work quickly isn't a loophole, it's just the right way to do it).
We really need to toughen the laws on frivolous or groundless cases.
He should get his law degree and countersue. Should take, what, 3 months?
While I can imagine it offending the purists, there wouldn't be anything fundamentally broken about a school choosing to price their services by credit-hour, or by degree, as opposed to per semester. However, if they don't do that ahead of time, that would seem to leave them with very little legal recourse if somebody manages to complete their studies faster than expected.
If, on the other hand, the school did price that way, and the student isn't paying up as agreed because he thinks that he shouldn't have to, it would seem like he has no leg to stand on.
Either way, it seems like a weird thing to progress to the lawsuit stage. If the school's case is actually "But, you violated our assumptions!!!", their lawyers must be insane(or really cheap, 3k isn't going to buy too much legal time...) If the student isn't paying up 'because performance is supposed to be worth something', this seems like a relatively small collections matter, which would likely be handled by masses of demand letters for a period of time before an actual suit...
Top 3 reasons why that was a stupid move:
1) You are attempting to sue a genius, your odds of winning are not exactly great.
2) You just wasted hundreds of thousands in free marketing opportunities. Instead of praising the student in the media (along with your University's name), you may now end up being hated in the media.
3) Punishing your own clients and making it public has never ammounted to a great business strategy.
That's more or less how such "private" commercial universities work.
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
Can you please stop posting articles from the Local? As I've explained in other threads, it's a "service" that steals content without attribution from local news sources in Germany Sweden and Switzerland, summarizes it, translates it to English, and sensationalizes it, then makes money off of your page views.
It's crap, it's misleading, and at times it's just plain wrong. Pop over to the EnglishForum.ch if you want to see what expats in the area actually think of the Local.
As for this article, we're undoubtedly missing part of the story. Wait a few hours and see what develops once someone links a real news source.
Funny enough, it will probably cost them more than 3k in legal fees to get this kids 3k.
Best comment from the original article:
"This story really hits home because the same thing happened to me. I finished early, yet was still expected to pay the full fee. In fairness, I should point out it was with a hooker instead of a University. But it's kind of the same thing... right?"
Then is it also safe to assume this "school" would have no problem with a student casually taking courses for 10 or 20 years? Of course not.
One would think they would be proud of such a motivated and capable student, but this so-called Business School is about to get their own expensive lesson in "The Streisand Effect."
Seems odd to me that one could get both bachelors and masters degrees from a university solely by passing a set of exams. In other words, there was no course work required (though it sounds like he did have to complete an internship). A big part of university should be learning how research and think critically - then apply both to the world around you. Doesn't seem like much of that was happening here. This smells like a for-profit diploma mill.
I can't say that I feel sorry that a school that has likely been gaming the education world got gamed by a few students.
By that logic, then I should pay for 4 years of school regardless of how long I attend.
"You want me to pay extra? Fair enough. I will go stand in front of the press and declare that, due to the ease of securing a degree, this shall no longer be considered a learned university."
"Well, hang on a minute..."
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
The article says he got a grade of 2.3. Does Germany use a different grading system than the US? Over here that would be a pretty terrible grade.
Anybody want a peanut?
The article doesn't say how fees are handle at German Universities. Do you 'subscribe' and pay by the month or something?
At American Universities, you have two sets of fees, (both paid in advance):
Tuition is by the class or 'credit hours.' If you want the class, you have to pay the fee. If you want to 'test out' of the class, you still pay just as much, but you only have to take one test to prove you know the material.
Fees are there just for being a student during that time (per semester). These go to various perks and stuff you get for being a student. I've been trying to think of examples, but I can't come up with any. I know that a lot of people are always complaining about the 'athletics fee' since they don't derive any benefit out of that.
In this example, he would have had to pay for all of his tuition for the classes he took, but he would have only had to pay the 'Fees' for the 3 months he was actually a student. I can't imagine the University saying, "pay for 2 more semesters because you're too smart." They might claim the right to use your name and story as advertising.
--Welcome to the Realm of the Hawke--
That was how my college viewed the laptops purchased through the school. They were supposed to be paid along with the tuition bill over four semesters, but nearly half of the freshmen didn't make it past the second semester but still kept the laptop. The school would send a letter to them saying to return the laptop, pay the money or possibly face legal action. It usually didn't work, but the school made up for it by charging everyone $2500 for a laptop that would have been around $1500 retail (including three year warranty).
lot's of degrees /classes are just about the tests that test how good that you are at cramming then knowing what the tests cover.
That is why IT needs to be apprenticeship like or at least some kind of tech school system where you do real work and have class projects.
CS is not IT and lots of people with BA / BS in CS do not know what they are doing but they some times get in over people who don't have a BA / BS but did take tech school classes and know what they are doing.
There is no need for lawyers at all... if they have any legitimate entitlement to payment, they can simply hold his degree hostage until he pays the monies owed.
That said, however, I find it absurd what they are doing... and it could have been entirely avoided if the institution had simply arranged their pricing structure more around the number of course credits being taken, rather than just per semester.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
So, by their own logic, if the degree took 12 semester instead of the required 11, that last semester should be free.
It depends you say? Ok, let's predicate your answer on whether the student applied themselves successfully or not.
The 12 semester student graduated Cum Laude (or better) - they bviously applied themselves successfully, correct? Then they should not have to pay for the last semester. The school essentially breeched a contract that stated they would graduate with a degree in 11 semesters.
that you pay a university so they can pay rent, salaries of their professors and various other expenses necessary to actually have a university. A person who completed 11 semesters of work in 3 clearly didn't sit in classes (much), thereby not expending the time of instructors nor the space in the lecture halls. As an old room mate of mine used to do in university, he probably signed up for the class and went to the instructor on the first day of class and asked for the final exam.
I'm not sure what the university thinks they lost, aside from some obtuse reference to some sort of IP claim for the quality of the education they gave the guy, which clearly couldn't have been much, since he probably didn't attend classes.
What next, in addition to all the fees (downpayment), you will have to sign a contract to offer the university 25% of your monthly wages for 36 months?
I could have gone to a reasonably good state school for free. Instead I chose an Ivy school and paid full freight (this was back before need-blind admissions). I finished all the necessary coursework in three years and asked if I could finish early. No. Could I do a couple of semesters at the state school? Yes, of course. But you still have to pay us for those semesters to get your degree.
I certainly understand their point of view, but would rather have had the extra $20k and the fancy paper.
the bigger picture in this that one size fit all idea about college is not working and the push for college for all is leading to stuff like this.
And it is not just on one side it is on all of them.
* College is not the best fit for all learning styles
* The college time tables are not the best fit for today.
* College is not the best for people with disabilities.
* there is to much put on the well rounded ideas.
* Testing needs to be more open book
* Jobs need to drop the idea need college for jobs.
* Jobs need to look at more of a vocational school / apprenticeships system (also put internships in hear (not tied to college))
* More schools maybe should stop offering BA, BS, AA, AS and move to a smaller chunk Badges system.
* Colleges need to cut down the filler and required classes as well need credits.
* All credits for any school need to be transferred 100% no BS like you must take our math classes.
* Drop all swim tests and needed PE classes.
Performance is supposed to be worth something
Yeah, it's worth exactly -€3,000. Maybe you didn't learn as much about economics as you thought...
Did they up the needed classes or credits after he stared and now they want him to pay for them.
3,000 euros for 8 semesters? Isn't that like 4500 euros? That is cheaper than one semester at an american school.
As they don't seem to care about any ones Performance just the cash.
Which is exactly why the GOP is trying to slay public education:
0) billionaires want money back from housing crash
1) pay GOP to declare witch hunt on labor unions
2) without unions, drop teacher wages to poverty level
3) teachers quit, go work at McDonalds
4) public panics. state says "we'll save you". privatized education.
5) private school raises tuition. billionaire can now afford Cuban cigars and Corinthian leather asswipe.
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While I can imagine it offending the purists, there wouldn't be anything fundamentally broken about a school choosing to price their services by credit-hour, or by degree, as opposed to per semester.
I can't imagine why it would offend purists or be fundamentally broken. Maybe my state university was unusual (though I doubt it), but you basically paid for two things: tuition, which was $X per credit hour, and room and board, which was a fixed amount per semester.
you here the anticapitalist always complaining about big oil, big pharmacy etc...
but never a word about "big education". Universities are a MONEY MAKING
racket. Between their sports programs (some of which is "donation money")
to all the huge buildings, teachers salaries, no wonder you can go into debt
to the cost of a house by attending a traditional four year school.
This will get interesting once the libertarians show up...
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
* there is to much put on the well rounded ideas.
What, like the ability to communicate effectively through writing?
* Jobs need to drop the idea need college for jobs.
Perhaps my doctor would have lower rates if he didn't go to medical school.
* All credits for any school need to be transferred 100% no BS like you must take our math classes.
Some schools are a joke and don't deserve their credits to be counted anywhere else for any purpose whatsoever.
This seems pretty clear the education industry world wide is a giant scam. They have created a system for only the purpose of obtaining money to line their pockets and not provide a service of any real value. Considering most college grads are lucky to get a job above the food services or mail room, this kid has either proven he is incredibly intelligent or proven the education he paid for was not worth the money or time, at least if you are everyone else who is handing loads of money to the schools and 4 to 6 years of time.
It is all a scam people, these professors and politicians just want money from either government taxes or student loans and they have dumbed down the education so much for the purpose of getting as many students in as they possibly can.
The bigger picture here, as alumnus from a German public university, is that private unis have the only purpose of fucking you in the arse, grabbing your purse, slitting your throat then fucking your corpse for good measure. Degree mills for MBAs at an outrageous cost, scientifically worthless. Education is provided by evil socialist public universities.
Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
"this seems like a relatively small collections matter, which would likely be handled by masses of demand letters for a period of time before an actual suit..."
Universities don't do collections. You pay what they think you owe, then you graduate. No money, no degree. The story smells funny, which almost always means that we don't know the whole story.
Universities are a money-grubbing business/cult just like scientology? But but but university is to teach you how to think! It's about learning and stuff!
Right....
by FreakyGeeky (23009) Alter Relationship on Friday July 06, @03:20PM (#40568013)
* there is to much put on the well rounded ideas.
What, like the ability to communicate effectively through writing?
What, like the ability to communicate effectively through writing? is one thing but ART history, music, other history classes (at the college level), Hip-Hop Dance, Chocolate Science, Wine & Beer, hobby stuff, ECT. Do not belong at the college price level and class time frame.
* Jobs need to drop the idea need college for jobs.
Perhaps my doctor would have lower rates if he didn't go to medical school.
Well maybe they don't need a full 4 years before med school and maybe there should some ideas I like we will help pay off loans if you take medicaid.
But for lot's of other jobs there is not need for 4 years or even 2 also (when most community max out at 2 years)
* All credits for any school need to be transferred 100% no BS like you must take our math classes.
Some schools are a joke and don't deserve their credits to be counted anywhere else for any purpose whatsoever.
Well it's not just joke ones it's community college that had have hit some blocks, also moving from one university to a other.
Also some of the joke ones are a joke if you look at them in some lights but not so much in others. (they should not be tied to the college system) they need a Badges system.
Tribeca flashpoint is good and gives you lots of real skills doing real work BUT it is only a 2 year plan and is seen as a tech school in the light of the college system and that is why * Jobs need to drop the idea need college for jobs.
As why should I go to a 4 year collage and learn a lot of theory with a BIG skills gap when I can go to a 2 year plan and learn real skills.
Where is the AA/AS Gen edu and the BA/BS Gen edu GED system?
Health insurance companies have to spend at least 80% of revenue on premiums.
I think you don't mean premiums - that's the revenue. I think you meant medical payments. So, given that ... The problem with this is that it's way too easy to juggle the books on this sort of requirement - especially for HMOs where the treatment is being performed by another subsidiary of a holding company. For example, the holding company can have the insurance company pay for records management to another company, which is owned by the holding company. The records management company can run at a 90% profit, charging the insurance company through the nose. It's a bit harder to hide the profits in the treatment side, but since typically each insurer has a different payment schedule with each clinic, the clinical side can charge the insurer an extra 5% above what it charges another insurer. So that 10% does not show up as profit to the insurer, but it does show up for the holding company. This gambit is common in many industries, and can be made so complex that it is impossible to know what or where the profits are.
It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
Not really. It is easy to file a lawsuit. You file pleadings, the defendant must answer (no answer = default), and the judge can be asked to rule on the pleadings or make a summary judgement. No court, no lawyers, probably get a judgement against the student which will allow the court to garnish them if the evidence is not in dispute.
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
We go with hand woven silken asswipes these days. Hand woven by thai child prostitutes for the extra smooth feeling. Apart from that, spot on. Don't listen for the black helicopters, they are in whisper mode anyway.
Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
right on!
College is all about the piece of paper now days.
Consider that the cost of public education in the US has tripled over the last 40 years, and the results have, shall we say, not kept up.
Consider that in general private education regularly has better results at dramatically less cost - as does home schooling.
Consider that home schooling, when successful, typically takes only a couple of hours per day instead of six or eight - dramatically better efficiency.
Consider that, immediately given the chance, 70% of Wisconsin teachers have stopped paying dues to the primary proponent of the federal education behemoth - the National Education Association. In my own experience as a child and a parent, teachers at two different local schools refused to join NEA as they considered it to be counter-educational.
Consider that, according to an article I read yesterday, the average hourly pay of a teacher in the US is more than the average architect or nurse, with generally much better benefits.
Consider that in countries all over the world, including India and other poor countries in Africa, dirt-poor parents will pay from their meagre subsistence income to send their kids to private schools instead of free public schools because they get much better results. Many villages will have several private schools and an empty public school.
Consider that poor parents in the inner city are the most vocal advocates of voucher systems that would allow their children to go to any reasonably nearby school, instituting supply and demand based on quality - something that the NEA has single-handedly managed to block for two decades.
What does that tell you about 'free' public education?
It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
>>> "Performance is supposed to be worth something," Pohl said.
But then again, I know a lot of kids that graduated early two or more semesters. Never herd of being sued for that.
My understanding of the german article is that the problem seeems to be contractually he was supposed to pay/studay for X semester a *full* studium, finished before, and now the university want him to pay for the rest he was contractually bound to. Which is perfectely fine IMHO, if I am bound to pay for 3 month rent, and I go out after 2 month, too bad for me I have to pay the third month anyway. Naturally that depend on the extact wording of the contract, but knowing the contract from other university where friends were (Dresden) , they say pay up for X semester, they don't say pay up "until" you finished your studium.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
If I was wealthy I'd pay the shortfall; Sadly I am not. Good on you and I wish you well. Don't waste your prodigious energy fighting it, I hope someone who recognises petty anti excellence envy helps you. Please make full use of your skills. Best, Paul from the UK.
(I don't know where the symbol is ;)
Maybe it doesn't exactly compare, but it's still several years of private school (!) tuition for less than one semester in the US... and even in Europe college kids don't pay that much tax. Why is this a big deal, when literally millions of people in the US are being screwed harder than this guy and his school combined?
Could have/should have used him as promotional material. Our programs are so great.... Oh well, not surprised.
Yellow journalist. Here is the originala rticle : http://www.bild.de/regional/ruhrgebiet/universitaet/uni-verklagt-studenten-weil-er-zu-schnell-studierte-24966622.bild.html
Anyway as I said in another post I think there is nothing wrong with the university depending on how the contract was made.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
All education here is FREE :)
First of all: The Local cites Bild, which is yellow press at its best.There is even a popular website dedicated to pointing out its bad journalism.
Second: In Germany the name "Universität" may only be used by schools where you can make your doctorate. The FOM is a private school which does not fall into that category.
According to another German newspaper the contract he signed with that private school only allows for early termination in case of he aborts his studies.
The lawsuit continues July 18, but he is willing to settle out of court.
The state run university I went to wanted to have about €700 per semester. I think it is about the same at the university where I live now.
Up to 2006 you only had to pay €200-€300 per semester and an additional €600-€800 per semester if you took way too long to finish.
First side of the coin:
"Performance is supposed to be worth something," Pohl said.
He's quite right, and in the parlance of business law his university did indeed "perform" on its contract with him. Assuming a court of law would consider the this total price the university wants in exchange for his education and freshly minted degree to be fair, an equivalent exchange of value, and not usurious, then he "got his money's worth" and shut up and put up.
Second side:
On the other hand... it sounds like the university has a really stupid self-injurious contract for educational services, and perhaps they should be taught a lesson themselves in contract law this once? If I understand correctly, this university is charging fees based on length of enrollment rather than per course, or perhaps based purely on test results independent of coursework and attendance? Any business that structures its contracts that way is just begging to be legally exploited by some motivated entrepreneur. They got royally and fairly pwned.
Why did they allow him to do what he did? They didn't have to except his work they could have said no you cant take the extra exams or said at the time, even if you take the exams ya got to put in the class time so whats the hurry. He did get a full education he should pay but he didn't put in the class time.
Jack of all trades,master of none
"Consider that in general private education regularly has better results at dramatically less cost "
That's not actually true. It's not even close to true if you remove the schools that are 25k+per year out of the equation.
AS it turns out, Home school 'success' are the minority; however home school institution remove many home schools from there number as 'religious schools' only keeping the success stories.
"Consider that home schooling, when successful, typically takes only a couple of hours per day instead of six or eight - dramatically better efficiency."
No one schooling for only 2 hours a day is actually learning what they should. under 4 is a red flag. What is happening is they are doing the bare min,. easy stuff and not being challenged.
"Consider that, according to an article I read yesterday, the average hourly pay of a teacher in the US is more than the average architect or nurse, with generally much better benefits."
That's simply not true.
I knwo teachers and Nurse, the starting rate for a nurse is 12-20K higher then teachers.
I don't know why your com[paring Africa teaching to america. There not even close to the same.
"Consider that poor parents in the inner city are the most vocal advocates of voucher systems"
ah yes, we should all listen to little educated loud people. That makes sense~
They don't want vouchers, they want better education. Fix the schools.
"What does that tell you about 'free' public education?"
Its also produces some of the best minds in the world.
Countries that have an actually country level education program do quite well.
What you post tells me is that you don't know how to think rationally.
It's incorrect information, anecdotes, fallacies,
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Except if they win, it will probably be the kid footing the bill for it...
Can I mod something +1 Scary if it's true but I wish it weren't?
It's 3000 euros. You can probably pay it off in couple of months if he has already started working!
But why resort to a lawsuit! Isn't that more expensive?
Perhaps my doctor would have lower rates if he didn't go to medical school.
In most cases, people's lives are not on the line.
Idiots. They will lose far more than 3000 Euros from the bad publicity. Who wants to go to a university that sues their best students?
I wonder if the alumni association will have the balls to call him for donations in the years to come...
- For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat
Pohl completed his turbo degree by dividing up all the simultaneous lectures with two friends and then swapping notes. At the same time, he completed an apprenticeship in a bank.
And the university didn't lose a thing.
So what happened to the other 2 students?
Consider that the cost of public education in the US has tripled over the last 40 years, and the results have, shall we say, not kept up.
The cost of everything has more then tripped in the last 40 years.... my 200k house would have cost 20k 40 years ago
Consider that in general private education regularly has better results at dramatically less cost - as does home schooling.
I don't know if this is true or not but this is a general issue with private schools/home schooling degrades public schools by de-vesting parents from the public school system and allowing it to rot.
Consider that home schooling, when successful, typically takes only a couple of hours per day instead of six or eight - dramatically better efficiency.
School is more then just learning books, its about developing social skills and independence and not having mommies apron to cling onto all the time. How many times is it actaully "successful"
Consider that, according to an article I read yesterday, the average hourly pay of a teacher in the US is more than the average architect or nurse, with generally much better benefits.
Since I don't know the article you read I can't really evaluate it for accuracy but many of these statistics are inflated by lumping administrators that do get paid alot (possible to much) and a few higher then norm districts while the income for the average teacher is really significantly less.
But lets say that it is high, shouldn't it be. They have one of the most important jobs in the country they prepare the next generation to enter the work force and become contributing members of society. We don't want these people to be the bargain basement.
I just hope the teachers are better than the management. A business school that can't do the math. I'd say the boy get his money back as his degree from that school is wortless.
cb
What it means is that medical care is going to get more expensive so the insurer's 20% is bigger.
A default seems unlikely, this is probably covered by legal insurance.
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
* Drop all swim tests and needed PE classes.
I thought we were talking about university? What kind of place (post-16) even offers "PE classes", let alone enforces them
But they had a cap so that if you took more than 6 classes per semester the extra ones were free. One year I took 7 classes first semester and 8 second semester....that was a tough year.
If a degree costs €3000 euros regardless of the student's talent or the effort or resources provided by the university, then I guess they have to give a degree to everyone that pays €3000 to them?
I would expect universities to budget for fast students who must turn up on occasion and price that in to the course fees as standard. If they require €3000 regardless then they should contract all students to pay €3000 over a number of years, instead of contracting them to pay for each year that they attend.
Cornell University
...my first concern would honestly be that my educators seem to be shit at both business and economics.
Just goes to show that that the universities are only in it for the money and don't give two shits about real education. This should have been obvious for awhile, but now the universities are making aggressive and visible moves to solidify this position.
Why would they be proud of the fact that they're selling four years of education which can apparently be done in less than two?
Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
"Consider that home schooling, when successful, typically takes only a couple of hours per day instead of six or eight - dramatically better efficiency."
No one schooling for only 2 hours a day is actually learning what they should. under 4 is a red flag. What is happening is they are doing the bare min,. easy stuff and not being challenged.
To evaluate this claim we need to ask ourselves how much time children in public school actually spend learning. We have to subtract the time they spend at lunch, moving between classrooms, waiting for the teacher's attention, listening to the teacher telling war stories. We must also subtract all activities which if done at home would not be considered schooling. This includes gym class and lunch. Oh, and we must subtract all the time spent sitting through lessons that the student already absorbed the first, second or third time.
In my experience as a student, there was never four hours of education in a six hour school day. At a good school it will be more like three. At a poor school it will be two or fewer.
As a child I found this extremely frustrating. I complained about it constantly. I can easily believe that an average six-hour school day can be replaced by two hours with a competent tutor.
This is exactly how some universities work. Ultimately they teach and then they examine. Why do you need to go through the teaching part if you know everything already? The check of what you know is covered in the examination.
Case in point, I've been playing with hobby electronics pretty much since I was old enough to burn myself on a soldering iron. ELEC1000 and ELEC2000 were a colossal waste of time. I scored perfect scores in the exams for both subjects and never went to a single lecture. Yet they held up my degree by a year. I couldn't do ELEC2000 without the ELEC1000 pre-requisite course and I couldn't go on to actually learn some new stuff without first finishing ELEC2000. Both courses took a semester.
If I could have signed up to uni and said let me sit these two exams to gain credit for the course without doing them I would have done it in a heartbeat, hell I'd gladly have paid to sit the exams. Similar people who work in industry and then go back to get degrees so they can advance in their industry are in similar positions.
Come on, this is not a real lawsuit! It is just an "post graduate training in management and economics, practicals, unit test 1, Law suits 303".
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
What your post (actually all of your posts) tells me is that you're sub-literate.
Well, if 50% of the students were graduating in 2 years, that's a concern. One kid, I'd show him off on how super-motivated people can bop the curve.
Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
Why would they be proud of the fact that they're selling four years of education which can apparently be done in less than two?
They'd be proud of attracting a quality student.
Besides, it's undergraduate work, so the only thing stopping the average student from finishing early is process (not a problem in this case) and motivation.
Required reading for internet skeptics
We go with hand woven silken asswipes these days. Hand woven by thai child prostitutes for the extra smooth feeling.
I think it's just awful that you have to suffer with such medium-quality asswipes. I'll be sure to write my congressman about your plight so that you can get a much deserved tax-cut.
Required reading for internet skeptics
The fundamental problem though is that health care is just too expensive even for the average case. Given that, I don't see how adding an extra 20% overhead to that will somehow magically make it not cost more than people have and it certainly won't scale the costs back to something like reasonable..
Fundamentally, it's just wrong that a one day visit to a hospital can potentially take YEARS worth of the unfortunate patient's labor to pay off (even if he didn't have to have food, clothing, and shelter in the mean while).
Billing uninsured patients several times more than insurance would otherwise pay is unconscionable.
Fix the gouging and the rest becomes much easier.
If you graduate before they decide you owe them more, then they'll do collections. Happens fairly often, because bursars often embody ruthlessness tempered by incompetence.
That's probably what happened here -- he was paid up by ordinary standards, but after he graduated someone noticed the discrepancy in time attended, and decided to make an issue of it.
Yes, performance is something.
But money is a different thing altogether.
Pay up, Herr Pohl. Oder else.
we're way offtopic here, but I have had some experience in healthcare a long time ago. It's not 'gouging' so much as the entire structure of the health delivery system is built in such a way that everything is treated like an FAA-certified custom-built part for a 747. (The coffee pot on a 747 costs about $5000.) The structure has several components - low volume, high liability, onerous regulatory and reporting requirements, captive markets, and boutique suppliers. The new Obamacare is going to make all of that worse, essentially the entire industry has been sold to the 'beltway bandits', who are used to the government contracting process.
Back in 1979-1980 I took flying lessons. I learned that the crappy radios in general aviation airplanes (that sound like the ordering station at Quickie Burger) cost $2500 each in 1978. At the time a much higher quality CB radio - much newer technology, better reception, better sound, higher reliability, better user interface - cost about $100. the difference was that an aviation radio had to be certified by UL, FAA and FCC. Each of those certifications cost over $1 million (and a year or two) even in 1978, and if even the supplier of a resistor was changed, the whole thing had to be recertified. That cost was amortized over a few thousand radios - adding perhaps $1000 to the cost of a $100 radio, then add normal R&D, engineering, other business costs and markups, and you're going to sell it for $2500 including retail store markup.
In 1977 I worked briefly for a company that made kidney dialysis machines. Part of the machine was a blood pump. A blood pump was a loop of clear 1/2" PVC tubing, looped around a triangle of three little wheels that pushed against the tubing, squeezing it shut in two places at the same time, forcing blood gently through the system as the triangle rotated - a simple, reliable system. The tubing had to be replaced for each dialysis treatment. The tubing was identical to the stuff you can buy in any hardware store today for about $1 per foot ($3 per meter?), but it was cut, sterilized and put into a sterile package and shipped to the dialysis center. It's a low volume business - this ain't WalMart. Included in the cost was all of the testing, analysis, liability insurance, and of course the labor to package, process orders, and ship. Again, it had to be recertified by FDA if the length changed or the supplier changed - cost $1 million. Liability insurance was on the order of 30% of the cost. the market was a captive monopoly - no sane dialysis center would use any brand of tubing except the one provided by the machine manufacturer because if anything went wrong, even if it wasn't the fault of the tubing, the dialysis center would be in deep doodoo. That tubing sold for $150 per unit, in 1977. And the company's profits were only about 22%. (re liability - a very popular heart surgeon I knew personally paid liability insurance premiums of 35% of his gross receipts.)
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Whetehr you drink your coke (your contract with the school for X semester) twice as fast or half as slow as other you will still pay the same price : 50 cent (the full tuition). That is a contractual things. You pay what you are contracted with/for, and you can avoid paying only if penalty to go out are forseen. For example some of our client can go out of year contract if they pay 3 month in full.
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All of that is true enough and certainly contributes to an outrageous price (in fact, a price high enough that people in the U.S. routinely die young because they can't afford it). The gouging is on top of that!
For example, after being granted exclusivity for what I can only call kissing the FDA's ass above and beyond the call of duty, URL Pharma hiked the price of colchicine from $0.09/pill to $4.85/pill. That can only be called gouging. Charging triple rates to uninsured patients can only be called gouging. In both of those cases, the crazy costs associated with the regulatory and legal climate were already covered at the lower price.
In the dialysis tubing example, you mention the captive nature of the market being, in part, responsible for the high cost. That is gouging.
Other 1st world countries also have exacting requirements for anything related to medicine, but it costs less. For example, in the U.K. it costs HALF and people live a bit longer.
Much appreciated. Can you send me your contact information, so that I may support your campaign with a little donation?
Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
That's pretty-much how the top ones in the US work as well. You can take the hard courses which will give you a great education. However, if that isn't your thing you can take the "Calculus and Society" courses and get a B/C as long as you show up to the exams.
Getting into an Ivy-league school may be difficult, but graduating from one is not. If you're the son of some VIP they can't very well not give you a way to get a diploma.
Remember suing != winning. Plus, this guy gets a BUNCH of free press, about how awesome a student he is. The university get's a BUNCH of free press too, but mostly bad, and who knows how many current, or potential students they'll lose over this stupidity.
It reminds me of the guy who used his VCR to figure out how to game that game show, because it turned out the pseudo-random lights flashing on the board were not random at all, but occurred in a set of patterns that repeated, and were therefore predictable if you knew the patterns. They watched him hit the big prizes over and over again, and realized he had cracked their system, and could do nothing about it. If they'd been smart, they'd have had other patterns on tap they could add on the fly in the event someone did this sort of thing, since I don't see how there would be a rule against that. Certainly I would hope they would have fixed it before the next show... but they couldn't blame him, he was not doing anything that could be described as cheating, it's not like he paid someone off for answers to questions, or whatever.
Similarly, the university should have let this guy go, then added for posterity a new policy that they will not let anyone graduate more than say, one semester early. In many US schools, they have policies that are, I think, geared toward preventing similar problems, in that the schools here mostly will only permit you to attain so many credits they will count towards graduation either through non-traditional means (i.e. testing out, or taking courses online, or transferring the credits in from other institutions).
Seems to me the worst thing they could do, given the Streisand Effect, is call attention to the fact that their courses are so easy that someone can do 11 semesters worth of "material" in only 3, meaning this guy is a super-genius, or more likely, the university's classes aren't worth the time it takes to sit through them, and hence a sheepskin from the place isn't worth the sheep's skin it's printed on. Which way do you here on /. THINK it's going to be interpreted?
The school might as well rename itself Easy-A U, or Shootourselvesinthefeet University.
Funny you should mention colchicine. Back when I was in 9th grade I started a Science Fair experiment that I was going to use colchicine for. Colchicine has this interesting property - when you treat seeds of some plants with it they often die, but sometimes they survive but the chromosomes are doubled in the plant that grows, and the result is a tetraploid plant that often has much brighter colors, stronger smell or flavor, and sometimes grows half size. My experiment involved Euglena, which I was going to try treating with colchicine and see what happened. At that time you could buy colchicine over the counter from chemical supply companies - I don't think it even had a medicinal use at that time. I never followed through with the experiment though. As it happens, we now know that Euglena are not simple one-celled plants, so it's hard to say what might have occurred.
It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
I'll just add that the sons of a friend of mine have an online Rx business, based in India. It turns out that an increasingly large majority of all Rx drugs sold in the US are actually manufactured in India, mostly by contract manufacturers. And with proper authorization, you can buy the legit drugs in India from the manufacturer, WITH the U.S. labelling, for a small fraction of the cost. Even with the cost of overnight shipping the cost is often 1/5 of what it costs here. As far as they can tell the drug companies don't even object - they have a good relationship with the companies.
The little secret with almost all Rx drugs is that the actual cost of manufacturing is almost in the noise level compared to the retail cost - maybe 0.5%. The whole business has a financial model similar to power utilities - huge up front costs, amortized over many years. But also that cost for a few new drugs (9 out of 10 of which don't make it) is amortized over the whole product line - and again, liability insurance or amortized reserves for handling liability eats 1/3 of gross wholesale receipts.
Also kinda like rock bands - a band may put out three or four CDs with a dozen songs on each, and one of those three dozen songs is actually a money maker. And only about one in 1000 bands makes $100,000 on their CD sales in a year.
It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
The most vocal advocates of vouchers are self-entitled white assfucks who want segregated schools back. Don't lie. It doesn't become you. Also, basically every country that outclasses the US by lightyears in educational tests has public education. Free. Try to think for once.
Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
Which makes it different from the last 40 years, where care got more expensive so the insurer's 30-50% got bigger?
I have to agree. I remember when I was young being quite confused at the purpose of school. It seemed so totally worthless for teaching information. It actually took me a few years before I realized what it was for other than babysitting. Especially in kindergarten... just playing with toys, story time, nap time, ... really? Any actual instruction was so minimal it seemed inconsequential. Then in later grades most of the year was spent reviewing the previous year an adding a tiny bit more - especially math. I was starving for education and they would provide only crumbs.
Administration policies, in most universities and institutes, aren't so logical in a sense that allows educational/academic flexibility, allowing some respect of comprehension present in the scene within students. If we keep hiring stupid employees who are responsible in making policies, no wonder we, the intellectual individuals, would get angry so quickly that we begin a massive debate over their faulty policies.
to all that attend that particular university - find a better one immediately. one that does not penalize you for exceeding their expectations. there is only one way to change dipsticks such as that and that is monetarily. put a crimp in their money income. they will change their attitude or close their doors.
I could have easily tought the graduate program at GW in Washington DC. Their graduate level was what we did as undergraduates at Maryland. They said fine - that will be $30,000 please - and that was almost 20 years ago!
Never the less, you can claim that they never performed their services since you didn't attend all of those classes, therefore they are not entitled to that money. No services rendered. Hope you win.
Colchicine is a funny one. It has been used medically for gout since about 550 AD in the form of a plant extract. It was isolated in the early 19th century and has been used in that form since. The new studies contributed nothing at all to our understanding of the drug.
It's application for plants is interesting as well. I suspect colchicine would be fatal to Euglena but I don't know that for a fact.
No one schooling for only 2 hours a day is actually learning what they should.
I know you disparaged anecdotes, but since it would take a single anecdote to disprove your generalization, allow me to offer one: My home-schooling lasted about three hours a day, 9 AM to lunch, and since some of that was goofing off, the actual schooling was probably closer to two hours. My mother's involvement was an hour or two on Monday to make assignments and the occasional help when needed a few times a week.
I started college at 15 years old. Graduated with my MS in Comp. Sci. Currently work for a robotics company.
When done right, two hours a day is plenty to surpass your average public education.
I'm not sure why I'm debating the merits of a college education with someone that can't *spell* college.
Name a school that requires anything resembling art history, chocolate, dance, or hobby areas for a bachelor of science degree. You can't, because college isn't what you've imagined it to be. What is all this useless "theory" you think comes with a BS degree?
There's no equivalent to a GED for a college diploma because the very concept is ridiculous. A GED basically says, "I wasn't able to complete high school along with my peers, so it took me a few extra years to learn these simple concepts.". What would a college GED represent, exactly?
Not sure about Germany, but around here they charge by the credit hour for part time (typically under 12 credit hours per semester), and anything considered "full time" (12+ credits/semester) is under a flat "full time" tuition rate.
In Germany (as well as in Switzerland) for public universities, tuitions is at a fixed rate pro semester. (And Germany is among the cheapest place to study in europe).
But this is a private school so other rates may apply..
But given how the legal system works in europe, the school doesn't stand a chance to get anything but laughted out of court. Unless they update their general condition and make it clear to new students that the private university expects a minimum income, or has a "per credit hour" rate.
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