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Ask Slashdot: Old Dogs vs. New Technology?
xTrashcat writes "I am 22 years of age and have been working in the IT field for over a year. I try to learn as much about technology as my cranium can handle; I even earned the nickname 'Google' because of the amount of time I spend attempting to pack my brain with new information. Being 22, it is, I speculate, needless to say that I am the youngest of my coworkers. If there is a piece of software, hardware, a technique, etc., I want to know everything about it. On the contrary, nearly all of my coworkers resent it and refuse to even acknowledge it, let alone learn about it. For example, we just started buying boxes from a different vendor that are licensed for Win7. A few months later, we decide that a computer lab was going to get an XP image instead of Win7. After several days worth of attempts, none of our XP images, even our base, would work, and it left everyone scratching their heads. We were on the verge of returning thousands of dollars worth of machines because they were 'defective.' I was not satisfied. I wanted to know why they weren't working instead of just simply returning them, so I jumped into the project. After almost 30 seconds of fishing around in BIOS, I noticed that UEFI was enabled. Switched it to legacy, and boom; problem solved. My coworkers grunted and moaned because they didn't have to do that before, and still to this day, they hate our new boxes. So in closing, I have three questions: What is the average age of your workplace? How easily do your coworkers accept and absorb new technology? Are most IT environments like this, where people refuse to learn anything about new technology they don't like, or did I just get stuck with a batch of stubborn case-screws?"
You sound 22.
So you learned the 80/20 rule and you happen to be in the minority. Your questions are all irrelevant. Word of advice - if you want to stay employed, stop showing off, because your bosses will probably be in the 80%.
When the older guys have kids and a family, spending all their energy on work can be hard. Older people should have experience, younger people should have drive. Working together, you can get amazing things done.
There are lots of people who do not perform well in their jobs, for various reasons. Age may be a red herring, as I've seen the behavior you describe in both old people and young people. (I was 19 when I started my career, so it is not "needless to say" that you are the youngest in your office. I am 34 now.)
I recommend that you not waste time psychoanalyzing your coworkers for underperforming. Instead, I recommend you take exploit your willingness to get to the bottom of things and simply earn a reputation for being the guy who can actually fix things. This will pay off in $$$, or should, if you handle it right. Alternatively, blaming your coworkers' failure to do this on age, or even fixating on that issue at all, is likely to earn you a reputation for being a cocky and arrogant young jerk that nobody wants to work with. Remember, I was 19. Don't do it. :)
If you have this level of attention to detail, one thing you might want to watch out for later on is a perfectionism that might cause you to obsess about investigating things even when there is no payoff. Watch out for letting yourself get trapped into jobs that don't have a payoff, whether that payoff be in monetary or in some other type of satisfaction. It's okay to work for a reward besides money; it's not okay to let yourself obsess and waste time that could be spent doing something you like better or that brings you better rewards.
A book I recommend for you is Leadership and Self-deception. The format is "business parable," which always comes off as silly and preachy, but the concepts in it are sound and useful as you discover and deal with mental blocks on the job, in others and also in yourself.
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
I am 37 years of age. I, evidently (and spuriously) enjoy the usage of too much extraneous, needless, and unnecessary punctuation; however, I'd like to relate a little story to you.
My co-worker, not much older than you, has absolutely no idea how to use the command line. He doesn't know what Perl is, or Bash. To his credit, he can write a little SQL, but we worked together on something recently that took us an hour to fix after he'd banged his head against it for a couple of days. It's okay, it takes time to learn shit.
You solved a problem your coworkers didn't. Good for you! You deserve a pat on the head for a job well done. IT is a field where all colleagues benefit from sharing and learning from one another. It's not an age thing. The sooner you learn that, the sooner you can appreciate it.
I have always been the disruptive influence, everywhere I've worked. I don't like answers like, "that's just the way we've always done it", they've never gone over well with me.
That said, you have to learn how to do it politely. You are still going to annoy people, but generally people feel good doing the best job they can. The folks that really don't like you...well, they aren't worth worrying about.
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
I'm one of the OLDEST in my department, yet I'm the one who learns new tech the quickest. In a previous job, it was invariably the older/experienced techs in the department that could pick up new stuff quickly, simply because they've been "picking up new stuff quickly" for a couple decades, whereas the recent high school/college gratuate whose first computer at age 4 was more powerful than my first computer post-college never had to learn arcane things, they've always been 'easy'.
Yet yes, there were/are young 'uns who are perfectly adaptable.
Age DOESN'T matter. It's just that most of the 'adaptable' older IT workers have 'adapted out' of front-line IT by now, so it's the less-adaptable ones you young 'uns see in the front lines.
I was like you when I started working in IT (oddly enough at the age of 22), I'm 35 now and the best advice I can give you is do amazing things with humility and always try to see things from others point of view before jumping into action. And yes, it's not easy because at the core most geeks tend to want to act on problems right away.
I ripped into everything, always trying to show that "things could get done if you put your mind to it". The trouble is you start to learn that some battles aren't worth the effort no matter how interesting because you will eventually have more important things to do. If I got a load of servers out of the box that didn't work I'd send 'em back for alternatives that did, not because I can't spend the time to figure out why they don't work but because I got bigger things to worry about.
From a social perspective you may start to put barriers in front of yourself by working around people instead of with them, solve problems right but careful of stepping on toes. Having people resent you is way worse than busted hardware!
Old age is a protected status in the US.
FTFY.
As someone who has, many times, been told I was turned down for a position because I was "just too young," I can promise you that people under 65 enjoy no such protection.
FTR, I'm still under 30.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Who wants to have a beer with those people?
I prefer beer with people who are actually interesting.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
There are two ways to get ahead in your career: a.) know your shit, and b.) don't be a dick. Either one will let you keep a job, and maybe even advance, but if you really want to get ahead in this world, you need to master both skills. Like most 22 year-olds, you appear to have focused your entire life around column a, and haven't put any effort into column b.
And for fuck's sake cut the old guys some slack. They probably know all kinds of obscure shit about making boot disks, compiling the OS from source, mainframe backups, configuring zfs, or whatever new and exciting knowledge there was to glean for IT workers back when they were 22.
There are idiots in every profession, certainly. However, in IT, and this may be just my perception because of my familiarity with the industry, they seem to coagulate in certain locations much more than any other industry.
Possibly the good ones, especially the ones with the rational type "anti-idiocy" personality types, quit and move on when they've got to deal with idiots on a daily basis, so the business hires someone to replace him. This continues until the business' IT dept is staffed by nothing but idiots.
In short, xTrashcat shouldn't plan on getting too comfortable in this job, because dealing with this style of coworker continually might just drive him off the deep end.
The fact that they were trying a standard, existing image on entirely new hardware tells me that they're not paddling with all oars to begin with. This is usually a recipe for a BSOD, and even if you can get it working, you've got a bunch of old driver cruft, which slows down the machine.
"City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
The thing that xTrashcat is missing is the contrary point of view:
Dear Slashdot,
Where I work, I'm the only one with a decade of experience under my belt. My coworkers constantly advocate using the newest, hippest tech without any concern for how well it's been proven to work. Our production environment constantly crashes and we've had many nights where we've had to pour over core dumps to figure out what's going wrong. The developers that work on these projects have been friendly, but ultimately unable to produce a stable product. How do I get my coworkers to realize that if we step back from the bleeding edge, we'll end up getting cut a lot less often?
There's two sides to the story. As xTrashcat gets older, he'll realize that learning is great, but so is sleeping through the night. There's a balance to be struck between using cool new technology and using tried-and-true, proven technology. At 22, he doesn't have the experience yet to see the wisdom of the latter path. He seems to be working with a group of people who are all to old, jaded and unwilling to learn to see the virtue in the former path. He should either a) try to learn from the wisdom of his coworkers without losing his zeal for learning (could be hard and frustrating) or b) go work with a bunch of other 20-somethings and learn those same lessons the hard way. This will be more work, less frustrating and result in earning less money.
We're talking about basic level IT support people. A monkey trained to hit a simple, repetitive sequence on keys could get first post on Slashdot.
That comes with age. There's also a certain level of need to just get stuff done. At a certain point USING knowledge becomes the overriding concern, and you have so many tools in your toolbox that one more becomes less and less useful. You also begin to find that there's very little that is really new under the Sun in most fields. As a software engineer I see fads in languages, dev tools, databases, etc, and hear all about how some new guy is sure that it is a whole new revolutionary better way to do stuff. Often some new tool IS useful, but it is also often something that existed 30 years ago that everyone has just sort of forgotten about and it got renamed/reinvented and we long ago learned what its limitations were and moved on to other things (probably when we were 24 or so...).
There's also a certain factor of luck in terms of poking around at stuff. Yeah, you did debug something in a snap, which is good, congrats. OTOH I might look over your shoulder tomorrow and spot something you missed too. I don't know the guys you work with, but they probably managed before. Maybe they're bumblers, and maybe they just missed something. Ironically the more secure you become in your knowledge the easier it can be to miss some small detail that you 'know'. Today I was totally thwarted by some stupid piece of bad design in python that caused a webapp I was deploying to balk at reading a file. My associate figured it out, somehow. Python's split() function is just stupidly designed. Being an old Perl guy from way back I assumed NOBODY could be that stupid, but yes they can! He doesn't know perl from beans and thus less knowledge = solution. Ironic, but it goes that way sometimes.
One thing is for sure. I learned back around 26 not to be cocky, lol. That's a danger to avoid. Maybe I'm hot shit, but I never ever speak ill of anyone or brag about anything nowadays. It works. Only the VERY best of the best get away with the cocky routine for long... ;) (not saying you're cocky, just remember not to get that way).
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." -- Jefferson
Here's the deal, "xTrashcat." You are about to read several hundred posts here that explain why you're young, why you're an idiot, and why you need to just keep your head down and follow process and not rock the boat.
F**k these people.
Yes, you're young; and yes, you don't get what it's like to be in the trenches for many years. And yes, you also don't understand why ad hoc but smart answers may not be scalable and thus turn out to bite you in the butt.
But you know what? You seem to like your job and have enthusiasm for it. Maybe that will last, maybe it won't. But if you do keep that enthusiasm, you will never be one of the people responding to your post and telling you what a stupid a**hole you are for trying to fix a problem without shipping the boxes back to the vendor, telling the users to fill out the XP-239 form in-quadruplicate, and taking a smoke break.
And you know what? Liking your job and wanting to always be learning new things as a result will make you much, much happier than all the people telling you how stupid you are. Also, with that attitude - you may end up being the boss of those people, and they will be complaining on Slashdot 10 years from now about how their PHB always wants them to learn things and fix stuff but "it's not their job"... so please keep it up. The world needs more people who actually like their jobs and try hard to do them well.
"95% of all Slashdot
Sounds to me like the others had their reasons for not liking the boxes, and the trouble with the XP install was just a convenient excuse to dump them, til Smartass McGee came along and "fixed" things for them. Now they're stuck with the shit boxes they really should have returned for something better.