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Ask Slashdot: Preempting Sexual Harassment In the Workplace?
zwei2stein writes "My team of about 10 men (IT guys) is expecting a new colleague: a female one. It is guaranteed that there will be remarks, double entendres and innuendos with huge potential of getting worse. We already have women in teams who can somehow handle this (and deliver apropriate verbal slaps). How would you deal with this? We talked about some simple, fun ways — anyone who [acts inappropriately] will have to wear an embarassing tie, etc. — instead of swear jar, having a sexual innuendo jar and even fairly harsh punishments (like people losing their bonuses for the month or their extra vaccation days). I'd like to figure out a solution that would be effective, not call much attention to itself, and not be quickly abandoned." What has your workplace done to create a good culture on this front? And what hasn't worked?
You need to understand the laws around sexual harassment, which you clearly do not.
...It is guaranteed that there will be remarks, double entendres and innuendos with huge potential of getting worse...
So you work with a bunch of unprofessional animals?
You should *already* have a policy that makes such comments and such a work environment unacceptable.
Let them know that this type of childish behavior is not only unacceptable, but will result in being canned.
End of sentence.
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
I am serious. From your post you are already over the line. A lawsuit is just one disgruntled employee away. Fix it and fast.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
Is your team a bunch of 14YOs?
love is just extroverted narcissism
Hire mature adults who don't feel the need to marginalize women instead of manchildren?
is to hire people whom you can trust to behave like adults. Seems like you have no trust in your team if you need to resort to petty punishments like these, which is a bigger problem.
If you have so little confidence in your crew, why are they still working for you?
Generally speaking, most professional men above the age of 20 that are managed properly will behave properly. The fact that you feel your crew will not behave properly speaks volumes about your management.
This little set of "exercises" you have planned seems like a witch hunt - something you do when you need a scapegoat. I'm glad I don't work with you.
We had none of this garbage. None. I knew I didn't even have to say a word to my guys...why? Because we're all adults and professionals and we know better than to do that shit.
Listen, it's 2012 and almost every single one of your employees has been through some sort of mandatory sexual harassment training at some point in their careers. If you have someone who hasn't (recent college grad with no other work history or an intern or something) pull them aside and handle it.
If this is an issue w/your staff, you should make some other changes, not just the woman you brought on board.
It is guaranteed that there will be remarks...
What the hell?
Are you all twelve or are some of you thirteen yet?
Get off my lawn and take your adolescent misogyny with you!
XKCD:Xeric Knowledge Comically Dispen
This does not sound like a good idea to me. It makes it seem like some kind of American college comedy film, where you wink and tsk tsk the naughty fratboys for their inevitable innuendos and they smirk and promise to behave better.
How about just making it clear to any employees that they're expected to act professionally with their colleagues of any race/gender/age/whatever?
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
The tie and "swear jar" are fun ideas, but sexual harassment lawsuits are no laughing matter. Careers have been ruined in both directions and companies a lot in both legal expenses as well as reputability. I would suggest telling those "10 guys" to grow up or gtfo.
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Hire someone because they fit the group and either have technical skills, or are capable of learning them... If they have all the best skills, but don't fit in the group, they're not the right hire. You can train skills, you can't train them to be happy and functional in an existing group.
Awk! Pieces of eight. Pieces of eight. Pieces of seven... ERROR: General Protection Fault. [Paroty Error.]
Why doesn't your company already have policies in place on this, and why don't you hire employees who know how to act like adults?
1. Create a policy, in writing, about what is and what is not acceptable behavior in the workplace when it comes to sexual harassment.
2. If somebody violates that policy, reprimand them privately at first, and then publicly if they still don't get it. And keep a record of doing that.
3. If somebody continues to violate the policy, fire them.
If you're not willing to fire people to make a non-harassing culture happen, then you aren't really serious about putting a stop to it. And these are exactly the kind of steps you need to have taken if your company gets sued over your guys' behavior.
Some other things you can do:
1. Lead by example. Treat her like a professional, because that's what she is. Treat your guys the same way if you aren't already, and make it clear that you expect them to act the same way. When you're working, you're working, not hanging out with your buddies at the bar.
2. Nip it in the bud. Don't wait for the second comment, or there will be a third.
3. Make it clear that you're putting a stop to it because if you don't, your boss will (They should back you up on this, if they don't give up, it's a lost cause)
4. Tell 'em (truthfully) you may be able to loosen things up if things go well at first. If your new employee makes it totally clear that she's fine with this sort of thing, then you can let the guys go with it.
IANAL, TINLA, etc.
I am officially gone from
Your "simple, fun ways" are going to get you into hot water. By doing that, you're basically encouraging such behavior by turning something from inappropriate behavior to behavior that's okay as long as you're willing to wear a funny tie.
You talk about your team, so I assume you're in a larger organization. That organization most likely has some HR representation, so I suggest you talk to them about what the baseline rules and laws are. I'm surprised your company hasn't already had some sort of mandatory training (training which I tend to think is just relaying common sense, but based on your write up, I'm not sure in your team's case).
For the grey areas not covered by those rules, why don't you go discuss with the other women you mention to learn their experiences? Double entendres and the like are not necessarily harassment/hostile work environment, but it depends on how they're played. If they're all being directed at the female team member, then yeah, you're probably asking for trouble.
A female colleague just joined our team a few months back (previously all male). Know what we did to prepare? Nothing. Because we are all adults and knowwhat's appropriate in the workplace. The innuendo didn't exist before she joined and it sure as hell didn't start after.
You want to prevent it? Don't fucking do it, and don't accept it when anyone else does. Certainly don't treat it like a game or accept that it is inevitable.
Companies like yours are the ones that give the media ammunition when they want to dig up crap about gender discrimination in the IT/IS world.
tl;dr -you're all big boys now and should damn well know what's acceptable behavior.
It is guaranteed that there will be remarks, double entendres and innuendos with huge potential of getting worse.
As a male, I would not want to work with those people. Your company has a personnel problem well beyond what you think it is.
IAAL, and I'm imagining the deposition in a hypothetical (inevitable?) sexual harassment suit. Q: Were you, as a supervisor, aware of any sexual harassment at the workplace? A: No. Q: Did you have a "sexual harassment jar"? A: Yes. Q: And what was the purpose of the sexual harassment jar? A: To curb employee sexual harassment. Every time someone said something that could be sexual or suggestive, they'd have to put a dollar in the jar. Q: And how much money was eventually contributed to the jar? A: The last time I cleaned it out, it had $562. Q: So let me ask you again, were you aware of any sexual harassment at the workplace?
I sincerely hope you neither have, nor ever will have, a daughter.
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Really...why should a group/team that has been working for ages, all of a sudden have to stop and change and stifle themselves just because a woman is joining the group?
Unfortunately, these days...legal reasons are the bottom line, which is sad. I mean, shouldn't all adults be able to have a bit of thick skin and do their job. Even in a bunch of just guys....individual guys get razzed and all, that's just normal. And yet...no one get sued, and work gets done...etc.
If a guy joins a group of previously all women, do they have to stifle themselves, go to mixed workplace training, etc? And really...if the women started making double entendre comments and the like...does anyone think the typical man entering that group would get upset in the least bit?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
"My team of about 10 white men (white IT guys) is expecting a new colleague: a black one. It is guaranteed that there will be remarks, racist jokes and insults with huge potential of getting worse. We already have blacks in teams who can somehow handle this (and deliver apropriate verbal slaps). How would you deal with this? We talked about some simple, fun ways — anyone who [acts inappropriately] will have to wear an embarassing tie, etc. — instead of swear jar, having a racist-remark jar and even fairly harsh punishments (like people losing their bonuses for the month or their extra vaccation days). I'd like to figure out a solution that would be effective, not call much attention to itself, and not be quickly abandoned."
This kind of work environment is completely unacceptable in the 21st century.
No wonder men don't care often for working with women. You have to bend to the lowest common denominator as far as 'feelings' go....legally.
Guys can't be guys in the workplace....
Yes, they are expected to be professional, not a bunch of guys with a locker room vocabulary. It's not the 1950's anymore.
I work among many women and to be quite frank they sometimes say things among themselves I don't care to hear, either. Personal stuff is for personal time, not work time.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
You are already harassing the women on your team. And something about the new hire is "special," so you think she can't "cut" the crap you boys are already dishing out. The job market is tight, and you idiots are already living on borrowed time. I'd grow up fast and learn to act like a professional and not a bunch of adolescent fools. I'm surprised HR/management hasn't already caught on to your antics and cracked the whip on your silly asses. The women shouldn't have to be slapping you down. Do you really think that they enjoy expending the extra energy it takes to fend off and/or cope with your crap?
Which one sounds more like childish whining: Not wanting to have people talk shit at you all day? Or not wanting to have to shut your mouth and stop talking shit?
When someone wants you to stop talking in the theater, is it they who are the jerk because they can't just deal with it?
People: if you can't stop yourself from saying sexually harassing things, you've got some serious problems. If you whine that you are somehow being oppressed because you can't say stupid shit to whoever you want, you're a whiney baby.
Most of us are much better than this, of course, but there's always a few idiots in these discussions that still don't get it. Thanks, Tastecicles, for bringing the stupid.
I'm a guy, and I've never found it difficult not to bring sex into workplace conversations and situations. Here's a short list of other things I find it easy not to do in a professional context:
1. Masturbate.
2. Shit myself.
3. Spend all day reading Facebook updates.
4. Nap.
5. Talk about my cats.
Your definition of "being a guy" seems to include acting like you're in a frat house when you're not. Okay, shine on, you crazy diamond. The rest of us will get on with our day accepting boundaries and getting on with our jobs.
Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.
If I'm gay, can I be a "guy" in your workplace? Can I comment on your nice firm ass? Make give you a slap on the but every once and a while because you're doing such a good job?
Guys being guys.. right?
Replace "women" with "people of a different race, ethnicity, religion, gender, sexual orientation, age, etc". People who don't want to work with people in those categories are not "men", they are anti-social morons who shouldn't be working with anybody.
Says the guy who's obviously never been in the minority position in an uncomfortable environment.
I've always felt like I had a reasonable understanding of what it might feel like to be in such a minority position, at least in an intellectual sense, but it wasn't until I worked in a fairly large team that was >60% Indian and 20% Chinese (myself being white) that I truly understood it. So unless you've "walked a mile in her shoes", you're in no position to criticise a woman who feels uncomfortable in a group of men who act like crude sexist jerks (while claiming not to be). I'm not a big fan of zero-tolerance PC policies, but I do strongly believe in having respect for others, and if that means no sexual innuendo or whatever, I'm fine with that.
And note that in the OP's case, it may very well be that the woman that joins the group is perfectly comfortable in that environment, but that's a decision she gets to make, like it or not. Where I work now, there are women who can dish it out just as well as the guys (and seem to enjoy doing so), but we're all aware of what others are comfortable with. It's a natural part of simply being respectful.
I mean, shouldn't all adults be able to have a bit of thick skin and do their job.
Actually, all adults should be able to do their job without having to have a bit of thick skin concerning actions from their coworkers.
Yes, but this goes both ways. If an employee finds sexually orientated office banter offensive then you have to absolutely snip(sic) it in the bud
OTOH having meetings to establish a policy before anything actually happens is a bit of an insult to the people already working there. You're basically saying you think they're idiots.
Give them a chance ... maybe nothing will happen.
If something happens, act immediately to nip it in the bud.
No sig today...
Unfortunately, these days...legal reasons are the bottom line, which is sad. I mean, shouldn't all adults be able to have a bit of thick skin and do their job. Even in a bunch of just guys....individual guys get razzed and all, that's just normal. And yet...no one get sued, and work gets done...etc.
Getting razzed is fine. Having comments made about your sexuality when they haven't been invited is absolutely unacceptable. Besides gender issues, many people prefer to keep their sexuality private. I can think of hundreds of reasons ranging from closeted non-standard sexual orientations to religious conviction, not to mention the fact that some people are there to do a job, not to be propositioned or pick up a hookup for the night.
Basically, I prefer to keep my sexuality in the bedroom (so to speak), and I demand that everybody stay out of my bedroom unless invited, and I have only invited one person. I don't think that this privacy is too much to ask, and I do think that invading it in this way is intolerably disrespectful.
And really...if the women started making double entendre comments and the like...does anyone think the typical man entering that group would get upset in the least bit?
I don't know what culture you are a part of that tolerates this, but I am a married man, and no, I would not appreciate double entendre statements addressed to me. I do take my wedding vows seriously as they are the foundation of my children's whole world and existence, and I would never joke or permit someone to joke about the idea of me being sexual with someone besides my wife. Maybe that is all just a joke to you. But in my workplace, men don't talk to women like that, women don't talk to men like that. And we are in "good old boy" east Texas, yet somehow we manage to behave like grownups who are here to do a job, not to get laid.
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
I notice a lot of US centric answers, including references to "sexual harassment training". The submitter's profile page indicates he's located in the Czech Republic.
As another European, I can say that the only time I've heard of "sexual harassment training" (interesting name, btw - does it train you to be better at it?) is in slashdot posts, by Americans, on the topic. While sexual harassment laws exist here, they obviously don't work the same way, or are enforced with the same rigour on this side of the pond.
Now, I do agree with the general advice, which is essentially grow the fuck up, but assuming American law and corporate procedures when giving advice is probably not very helpful.
May we live long and die out
If a guy joins a group of previously all women, do they have to stifle themselves, go to mixed workplace training, etc? And really...if the women started making double entendre comments and the like...does anyone think the typical man entering that group would get upset in the least bit?
Well, imagine this if you would: Pretend that instead of going into a heavily male profession like IT, you'd gone into a heavily female profession, nursing. You go out, get a job, move to a new town, you show up for your first day of work and what you hear all day from other nurses is comments not about nursing but about the apparant size of your dick and your presumed sex life or lack thereof. And your ugly hag of a boss is deciding whether you'll be promoted or not based on how nicely you smile when she looks you up and down with clear sexual intent (or in more extreme cases whether you agree to sleep with her).
Think about how you'd really truly react in that kind of scenario, and you might understand the problem.
I am officially gone from
Your point is well founded, but I find it a bit disturbing. The reason you shouldn't let this happen should not be the fear of a lawsuit, but the welfare of your employees. They are human beings, and if you drive them all the way to sue you, it probably means you've made them suffer along the road, which is much worse than a "nice settlement".
Of course, there is probably the odd person not really suffering and still suing just for money, but if there's ground for a lawsuit there's probably something morally wrong behind the scene.
Write boring code, not shiny code!
Sad isn't it. It's the absolute truth and yet it sounds weird to people these days.
Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
In practice, yes you can. Anyone who complains will be called a homophobe and sent for re-education.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Is the abuse of power by a person in a position of power, to try to obtain sexual favors. Making a comment about a co-workers boobs in NOT harassment. Slapping a co-worker's ass is NOT harassment (but it may be assault). However a boss telling an employee that he/she will be denied advancement unless he/she performs some sort of sex act IS sexual harassment. But like many other words such as "genocide" and "terrorist", "harassment" has been bastardized to include any sexual behavior between anyone if one of the parties doesn't consent (or later changes their mind about consenting).
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
I've always felt like I had a reasonable understanding of what it might feel like to be in such a minority position, at least in an intellectual sense, but it wasn't until I worked in a fairly large team that was >60% Indian and 20% Chinese (myself being white) that I truly understood it. So unless you've "walked a mile in her shoes", you're in no position to criticise a woman who feels uncomfortable in a group of men who act like crude sexist jerks (while claiming not to be). I'm not a big fan of zero-tolerance PC policies, but I do strongly believe in having respect for others, and if that means no sexual innuendo or whatever, I'm fine with that.
Ok, sure, that's fine and good. But did you suffer many tens of thousands (maybe even millions) of dollars in damages from that experience? I think not. Did your then-coworkers deserve a criminal record and getting dragged to court and put through the legal wringer and having their lives ruined because of those cultural gaps? Again, I doubt that seriously.
I'm sorry but women need to choose one and only one option: be protected like a child or some kind of delicate little flower, or be treated as an equal and expected to tolerate anything a man is expected to deal with. They are mutually exclusive by their very nature.
Turned out that he was gay (nobody had ANY clue) and found the workplace to be sexually hostile.
Under the circumstances that you described (and many other "guys just being guys" situations), I am pretty sure that anyone, of any gender or sexual orientation, could have won a lawsuit.
It isn't about who might be offended. It is about following well understood and easily complied with standards that protect everyone.
I'm betting submitter is talking about "That's what she said" jokes a la The Office.
That's what he, loser of a sexual harassment judgement, said.
The Office is funny because the characters are clearly caricatures of badly behaving people.
Same reasoning can be applied to racial discrimination. There is, in fact, a market for discrimination, however it externalizes its costs, and law suits represent how we tax that externalization.
Fugue for Aaron Swartz
This would make me uncomfortable, yes but I think the I should be able to say this makes me uncomfortable please don't do it and you should stop.
I would not be scarred for life, no need to sue or take any further unless you refuse to stop.
The problem is different people have different tolerances for this type of behaviour, you should always treat people with respect and try to make them feel conformable. But I only got a C in mind reading class so sometimes I assume I get it wrong.
I think there should be a onus on the person that is offended to inform the person that is offending them first. (Perhaps not when the person has direct authority over them) It is hard but sometimes in life you have to stand up of yourself. Standing up for yourself will make you feel better about yourself as well.
I believe that most people are good I think they probably don't even realise they are offending you.
So the escalation procedure should be:
1. Get offended
2. Clearly Inform the offender
3. Inform manager
4. Law suite
steps 2 and 3 should not be missed unless you where more than just offended or upset.
Because of this.
"... Sean Hannity, whose surgery to remove those bolts from his neck was apparently successful,
The reason you shouldn't let this happen should not be the fear of a lawsuit, but the welfare of your employees.
100% correct - companies should do the right thing because it's the right thing, not because they might get sued for not doing the right thing.
Unfortunately, considering that most corporations would be considered sociopaths were they to be psychoanalyzed, the possibility that they will do the right thing because it's the right thing is slim-to-none; hence, fear of legal (or rather, financial) repercussion is about the only way to get their attention.
It's sad and stupid, but thus is the world we inhabit.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
It's not about off-the-cuff remarks. Contrary to what popular (right-wing) culture wants to tell you, not every woman is a raging man-hating bitch for not wanting a consistent stream of sexist remarks directed at her.
Mature women can handle the occasional off-the-cuff remark as long as there is no pattern of consistent misogyny. If you want to see what such a pattern looks like, try reading this discussion, or any Slashdot discussion that touches on feminism, at -1.
Mart
"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
Harassment should take intent into account, just like many other crimes.
"But your Honor, I didn't mean to offend her when I said she had nice tits! Hell, it was supposed to be a compliment!"
Good luck with that defense, Jack.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
The guy is putting the responsibility for his marriage on his kids. As in "I stay married because I have kids". Not "because I love my wife", not "because I made a commitment", but "because I have kids".
Notwithstanding the question of whether, if the marriage turns sour, it's better for the kids if the parents go find happiness somewhere else, putting the whole onus of justifying one's marriage with "it's better for the kids" is one hell of an external locus of control.
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
You need to stop thinking that sexual harassment is exclusively something that men do to women, or at some future point another man will drag you into court because he didn't appreciate the atmosphere of sexual innuendo that you promoted at work, and he will win.
Work is not supposed to be about fun and hyjinks, it is place where you are supposed to cultivate and practice your professional focus. It's about professional self respect, respect for your workplace and respect for your colleagues.
I once worked in a country where work culture is that lines between work and life are very very blurred. Office romance and sexualisation of the workplace was common and accepted as normal. Being the foreigner, got hit on by women and gay men all the freaking time. Worst work environment ever. I know sounds ace, initially it was quite flattering, but it got very tiresome very quickly. Heading off the work, I just want to focus on how to squeeze more ms out of a DB query, but know at some point during the day I am going to get sexually harrassed. Sex and romance is something you pursue outside of work.