Microsoft Surface Release Date Confirmed

twoheadedboy writes "Microsoft is going to release its Surface tablet on the same day Windows 8 goes on general availability, Oct. 26. The news was disclosed in a filing made with the US Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC), which also revealed that the company expects launch and the accompanying marketing to harm its profits. We'll soon find out whether Microsoft has what it takes to take on the seemingly indomitable iPad."

Comments

However

[Anonymous Coward]

Users will not be allowed to touch their devices until software updates are issued sometime next year.

Isn't there a "late to the game" borderline?

[GodfatherofSoul]

Where, not bothering to show up is better than walking in so late you look like a rude, disinterested moron?

Re:Isn't there a "late to the game" borderline?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah I guess that didn't work for IBM, HP, Dell, Sony, Acer, Asus, Samsung and hundreds of other computer OEMs after Apple released their first PC back in the 70's.

It's just been two years since the iPad release. It takes a decade for things to settle down. I think by 2016 or so all cells phones will look and perform the same. It will always come down to software and it's developers. The tablet "wars" will be hashed out by 2020 and will probably all look the same and perform the same.

Look at history to predict the future. Back in the late 80s and most of the 90s each computer OEM had their own take on what a computer should look like till we entered the beige box era. History will repeat itself again.

Re:Isn't there a "late to the game" borderline?

[SilenceBE]

Yeah I guess that didn't work for IBM, HP, Dell, Sony, Acer, Asus, Samsung and hundreds of other computer OEMs after Apple released their first PC back in the 70's.

The tablet world is relatively young and there is no sign whatsoever that people are bored by iOS or Android. You are comparing the situation over decades. It is iOS and in lesser extend Android that get's all the love from developers, I don't really hear a lot of enthusiasm for Windows RT. I develop apps and I don't care, let alone that my clients care. And apps is what can make and break a platform. It is also a lot easier to shell out 99$ for developer license and that for a platform that has proven itself, then something that is very questionable to say the least.

The only people I do know that are enthusiastic about Microsoft tablets offering are the typical Microsoft people. The kind that get their trousers wet when they hear things like "exchange", "sharepoint","office",... . Those guys that have such a tremendous thrilling life that girls fall on their feet when they spread their theory about how integration with exchange will make Microsoft conquer the tablet space. Or my favorite "it comes with office", because that is really a fun factor... .

The only enthusiastic things I hear about those tablets are about the integration with current Microsoft software and that for 99% in the work space environment. And while Apple does have an enterprise program (which is btw not that strict), I think it is safe to say that most of their tablets are sold to consumers.

That group of people where Microsoft isn't a strong brand or where consumers have a lot of confidence in. I once had a friend who tried to argue that because most people used windows on their pc, it is a "strong" and "popular" brand. The difference is that for PC (especially if you like gaming) you don't have a lot of choice, in tablet space it is a complete other story.

I'm even sure that this was a wake up call for Microsoft and is the reason why they try to shove down "Metro" and their "unified" vision down our throat. That in the hope that familiarity will influence the choice people make when buying a new tablet. I know a lot of people who replaced their PC with a tablet or are using the PC a lot less since they have a tablet. I think for the general population that does some surfing, e-mailing and simple games a tablet can be good enough. And that is a big threat for Microsoft when the dominant tablets don't have a Microsoft operating system on board.

For the more boring environments like most businesses they have a change, in consumer space I don't see it happening. I know it is popular to predict doom and gloom, but if you think about it Microsoft is facing the biggest threat it has in years or even decades.

Re:Isn't there a "late to the game" borderline?

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL!!! Thought you made a huge typo there, but I finally got the joke.
LOL!!! Thought you made a huge typo there, but I finally got the joke.

Re:Isn't there a "late to the game" borderline?

[Sir_Sri]

The only enthusiastic things I hear about those tablets are about the integration with current Microsoft software and that for 99% in the work space environment.

Which is microsoft's whole deal, where the money is, and the way into the market. With office 2013 they're pushing to make home a lot more like enterprise. If people can understand what features they get, and how to use them then suddenly it becomes a compelling product. Of course no one outside of MS HQ really understands everything you can do with office, so that barrier to entry is probably insurmountable. However, students will find a lot of enterprise features really useful, and the computer illiterate would find things like cloud storage useful for when they kill their computers and don't have to copy everything over, but they're computer illiterate and can't take advantage of those features.

The other thing to keep in mind is that Surface is supposed to be significantly more capable as a content creation product than ipads and android tablets which are basically content consumption devices. There is a market there, unfortunately Windows 8 is sufficiently terrible that I'm not sure anyone really wants windows 8 devices.

With all of this it's about building the critical mass to get developers on board to make compelling software you can't get elsewhere. MS seems to have a vision for a combined windows 8 family across phones desktop and tablets, but the base of that visions is windows 8 which is terrible. That doesn't mean there isn't something they could do that would make the whole thing really compelling though, I just doubt their users could manage it.

Keep in mind Apple only sold 40 million iPads in 2011. That seems like a lot compared to say... android tablets. But windows 7 sells about 240 million copies a year. If they can present it as easier to use, easier to connect with the PC etc. people might go for it. Lots of people are completely baffled by iPads (seems odd, I know) but those people don't *have* iPads. Of course those people also aren't going to have a clue how to use windows 8 either, but there's probably 200 million customers who's needs aren't served by iPads or android and MS is figuring they could eat up a chunk of that, though admittedly, they'll cannibalize some of their own laptop sales with surface.

Re:Isn't there a "late to the game" borderline?

[Anonymous Coward]

I was just referring to the late to the game comment. Everything will get watered down eventually. As for developers, Microsoft has a very large base as well. If they can turn them onto creating "apps" for Windows 8 then they can compete with the iOS and Android world. All it will take will be a sales report that says Microsoft has sold "x" number of copies of Windows 8 in "x" amount of days. If it's a large number the platform will live on just fine.

Re:Isn't there a "late to the game" borderline?

[fwarren]

I'm even sure that this was a wake up call for Microsoft and is the reason why they try to shove down "Metro" and their "unified" vision down our throat. That in the hope that familiarity will influence the choice people make when buying a new tablet. I know a lot of people who replaced their PC with a tablet or are using the PC a lot less since they have a tablet. I think for the general population that does some surfing, e-mailing and simple games a tablet can be good enough. And that is a big threat for Microsoft when the dominant tablets don't have a Microsoft operating system on board.

Here Here!

Price is going to be a big factor. The Nexus 7 is $200 and does alot. How much? Enough to make some one wonder if they want to buy 3 Nexus 7's for them, their spouse, and a kid, OR do they want to buy on Surface or other Winsows 8 tablet at $600 plus? The only way that Microsoft adds "value" for an OS that is priced at $50 or $150 is on expensive hardware. If you put Win 8 on the Nexus 7 it would be a $300 tablet. You have to hide the price of Win 8 in the cost of overpriced hardware.

That is not to say there is not value havind a keyboard as well as front and rear facing cameras. Microsoft is betting that someone will look at a Nexus 7 wth no keyboard, front facing camera, scratchable screen at $200 and pass it up for Win 8 tablet at $600. Remember, this is WinRT at $600 and there are more Andriod apps than Win 8 apps and you must trust Microsoft with your cloud info better than you trust google.

The market to me looks like Android owns the sub $400 market, Apple owns the $500 to $900 market and those that absoletely must run a Windows desktop on a tablet might spend $900 + on a Win 8 tablet ... unless they would prefer a $900 Win 7 tablet. After all, one you hit that price point the hadware is goog enough to make Win 7 sing.

Re:Isn't there a "late to the game" borderline?

[mcgrew]

The Apple 1 not only wasn't a PC, it wasn't even a whole computer.

Apple was established on April 1, 1976 by Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak, and Ronald Wayne,[1] to sell the Apple I personal computer kit. They were hand-built by Wozniak[22][23] and first shown to the public at the Homebrew Computer Club.[24] The Apple I was sold as a motherboard (with CPU, RAM, and basic textual-video chips)â"less than what is today considered a complete personal computer.[25] The Apple I went on sale in July 1976 and was market-priced at $666.66 ($2,723 in 2012 dollars, adjusted for inflation.)

The Commodore PET predates the first Apple PC, the Apple II.

Commodore responded to this by searching for a chip set they could purchase outright. They quickly found MOS Technology, who were in the process of bringing their 6502 microprocessor design to market, and with whom came Chuck Peddle's KIM-1 design, a small computer kit based on the 6502. At Commodore, Peddle convinced Jack Tramiel that calculators were a dead-end. In September 1976 Peddle got a demonstration of Jobs and Wozniak's Apple II prototype, when Jobs was offering to sell it to Commodore, but Commodore considered Jobs' offer too expensive.[2] Tramiel demanded that Peddle, Bill Seiler, and John Feagans create a computer in time for the June 1977 Consumer Electronics Show, and gave them six months to do it.[3] Tramiel's son, Leonard, helped design the PETSCII graphic characters and acted as quality control. The result was the first all-in-one home computer, the PET, the first model of which was the PET 2001.

I think by 2016 or so all cells phones will look and perform the same.

I hope not; different people have different requirements for a phone. Me, I want a small enough phone to fit in a pants pocket, I want it to have a good video camera and sound, and I want it to surf the web and do text; email I'll do on the computer. I have no use for Angry Birds on a phone, or Skype since I don't have overseas friends.

Others carry purses and want a big screen and Angry Birds and Facebork and email, but don't give a damn about a camera.

Others just want a PHONE, something they can make and recieve calls on and don't want a camera, internet, text, or anything else.

When it comes to phones, unlike yesteryear one size does not fit all. If all phones are alike in 4 years, I'd consider that to be a very bad thing.

Re:Isn't there a "late to the game" borderline?

[camperslo]

Look at history to predict the future. Back in the late 80s and most of the 90s each computer OEM had their own take on what a computer should look like till we entered the beige box era. History will repeat itself again.

This is nothing like the early PC era. There are very few OSes. No one seems to be lean and considering small market share viable. Where are the small startups or other NEW players? If products were sufficiently differentiated with significant useful new added or alternative functionality, new entrants could fetch high enough prices to be viable. With most products attempting a me-too of Apple functionality or appearance, they're doomed to fetch lower prices if they can't quite reach the same bar.

If many do manage to come up with the tablet counterpart of beige-boxes, there won't be much profits in them. It'd just be the netbook situation revisited.

Competing with many players to make a low-margin commodity product is risky. If someone else innovates, you're hurting. If you're outsourcing and a disaster hits your supplier, good luck.

300 million people in 7 states of northern India were without power over a solar storm that barely registers on the radar. (M-class flares with the background near C level). Some should enjoy auroras tonight, but not as intense as earlier this month. I can't believe that no one connected the X flare and CME with the sudden melt in Greenland. At least our lights stayed on. China got some nasty flooding though.

Re:Isn't there a "late to the game" borderline?

[P-niiice]

The market to me looks like Android owns the sub $400 market, Apple owns the $500 to $900 market and those that absoletely must run a Windows desktop on a tablet might spend $900 + on a Win 8 tablet ... unless they would prefer a $900 Win 7 tablet. After all, one you hit that price point the hadware is goog enough to make Win 7 sing.

I think there could be a lot of these folks out there. Not IPad-numbers but I think there are a lot of dedicated pc users who wanted the IPad to have a full OS instead of IOS. Microsoft could pick these folks up.

Re:Isn't there a "late to the game" borderline?

[westlake]

the computer illiterate would find things like cloud storage useful for when they kill their computers and don't have to copy everything over, but they're computer illiterate and can't take advantage of those features.

What is so difficult about using SkyDrive?

There is a market there, unfortunately Windows 8 is sufficiently terrible that I'm not sure anyone really wants windows 8 devices.

Windows 8 puts the application --- the task --- front and center.

Not the browser. Not the desktop.

That may be closer to the truth of how ordinary people are using their PCs and mobile devices --- and how they want to use them --- then the geek may be willing to accept.

For FOSS it means that the battle for placement on the desktop has ended and the battle for placement in the app store has begun.

Re:Isn't there a "late to the game" borderline?

[tjb]

Others just want a PHONE, something they can make and recieve calls on and don't want a camera, internet, text, or anything else.

In 3 or 4 years (or possibly sooner), that will simply not be an option for the same reason you can't easily buy a dedicated word processor or standard definition TV any more: the fixed overhead of distribution, marketing, warehousing, etc. the more capable product is the same as the less capable product and will completely swamp any differences in manufacturing costs as component costs drop.

Even if a basic phone costs $2 to manufacture and the low-end smart phone costs $20, it doesn't mean much if the rest of the supply chain costs $75, particularly if the low-end smart phone can drive down its costs further through volume advantage.

Re:Isn't there a "late to the game" borderline?

[lilfields]

The only "awful" thing about Windows 8 is that it's awful with a keyboard and mouse and has no place outside of the touch environment (at least Metro tiles don't, not necessarily the Metro language itself.) Aside from that Windows 8 is actually incredibly fast, much faster than Windows 7. They actually had to slow the boot time on Windows 8 because it was booting before the fans could spin up in some SSD machines. It's hardly awful...the Metro tile on the desktop is pretty bad, but on touch? It's rather intuitive.

Re:Isn't there a "late to the game" borderline?

[Anonymous Coward]

Kind of like linux to the desktop... Not just a few years late, a decade and a bit and still no impact.

Re:Isn't there a "late to the game" borderline?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sigh.

"Hear, hear!"

Not:

"Here, here"

Where?

Re:Isn't there a "late to the game" borderline?

[Sir_Sri]

What is so difficult about using SkyDrive?

Try teaching a 65 year old how to use a TV remote, and then come back and ask that question. Also, Skydrive with it's rather onerous terms of service that will ban your account for profanity make it simply unsuitable for anyone. Even if that wasn't the case, as I say, if you can figure out how to use it (students) it's conceptually a good idea. If you can't figure out what 'files' are, or how to open them, skydrive storing data magically in the cloud may as well be someone offering you a sql server.

Windows 8 puts the application --- the task --- front and center.

No, windows 8 inconsistently puts different UI's in front of you for no apparent reason. That's actually what's wrong with it. It's not the browser, it's not the desktop.

That may be closer to the truth of how ordinary people are using their PCs and mobile devices

well definitely their mobile devices. To reiterate my 65 year old with a TV remote example, where they fill their desktop with links to web pages as though they were apps. So I agree, that's how lots of users approach their desktop. Except with windows 8 it doesn't do that. Well it does. And then it doesn't, for no apparent reason. Again, that's what's wrong with it. It's inconsistent.

Re:Isn't there a "late to the game" borderline?

[Sir_Sri]

Sure, but you end up with both metro and the desktop in this unwieldy mess. It's not really a problem with keyboard and mouse in metro, it's the same as media centre and it works pretty much the way you'd expect it to, if it stays in one mode or the other.

The problem is that it's not sure what it wants to be.

Don't get me wrong, they've made a lot of technical improvements, but they've combined it with this bizarre design set of design decisions that are just wildly inconsistent, and that's fatal.

Re:Isn't there a "late to the game" borderline?

[tehcyder]

Or my favorite "it comes with office", because that is really a fun factor... .

This may come as a surprise but businesses are not about fun.

The fact that Microsoft's tablet will come with Office IS a big deal to a lot of businesses.

I'm not saying this is good, only that it is the case.

Re:Isn't there a "late to the game" borderline?

[tehcyder]

Sigh.

"Hear, hear!"

Not:

"Here, here"

Where?

There, there.

Re:Isn't there a "late to the game" borderline?

[tehcyder]

LOL only old people use desktops, us young hipsters don't want to carry like a big old-fashioned TV down to the coffee shop on the back of our electric Vespas.

Re:Isn't there a "late to the game" borderline?

[mcgrew]

In 3 or 4 years (or possibly sooner), that will simply not be an option for the same reason you can't easily buy a dedicated word processor or standard definition TV any more

Well, a dedicated word processor would be the tiniest of niches and cost as much as a full-fledged computer, and a standard definition TV would cost as much to manufacture as a high def one, plus who would want one?

As to a phone that they only want to make and recieve calls, having the other gadgets wouldn't hinder them if the phone was designed well.

As long as I can get a small flip phone I can fit in a pants pocket and has the features I wan't, I'm happy. I'm troubled by the fact that flip phones are disappearing, and the phones themselves are becoming huge, way too big for a pocket.

Is it a big ass table?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it a big ass table?

Re:Is it a big ass table?

[Reverand Dave]

This

Muzzies

[Anonymous Coward]

Islam is evil, of that there is no doubt
whatever is good they corrupt or they throw out

surface is wack

[Anonymous Coward]

who the fuck would use that shit!

Slashdot is for fags

[Anonymous Coward]

I ejaculated on your Linux cds.

Re:Slashdot is for fags

[DickBreath]

I beg to diff. There are no gay people on Slashdot.

Re:Slashdot is for fags

[Anonymous Coward]

So... how did you win your nickname? by accident??

Re:Slashdot is for fags

[Anonymous Coward]

The guys on Slashdot say they're not gay - even though they are effeminate, histrionic, dandy, mincing, androgynous, gynomastic, vain, sissy, dainty, and fussy manchild weenies.

-- Ethanol-fueled

Re:Slashdot is for fags

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

The guys on Slashdot say they're not gay - even though they are effeminate, histrionic, dandy, mincing, androgynous, gynomastic, vain, sissy, dainty, and fussy manchild weenies.

-- Ethanol-fueled

P.S. The above comment does not apply to me. I am assuredly the most masculine, stoic, somber, manly man to frequent this site.

-- Ethanol-fueled

Re:Slashdot is for fags

[SmallFurryCreature]

The guys on Slashdot say they're not gay - even though they are effeminate, histrionic, dandy, mincing, androgynous, gynomastic, vain, sissy, dainty, and fussy manchild weenies.

-- Ethanol-fueled

P.S. The above comment does not apply to me. I am assuredly the most masculine, stoic, somber, manly man to frequent this site.

-- Ethanol-fueled

In the land of the blind, one eye is king.

Re:Slashdot is for fags

[Anonymous Coward]

I can verify that thePowerOfGrayskull is NOT gay. He is completely butch; every time I've had his dick in my mouth, he swears he has not enjoyed it, and i believe him.

Re:Slashdot is for fags

[mcgrew]

Please don't feed the trolls, they're all way too fat anyway. You just made a "-1. troll" visible by quoting him! Mods, fix this guy's wagon, please. Biters should be downmodded, just as the trolls themselves.

Re:Slashdot is for fags

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

At least I went into it with eyes open, knowing it was a troll ;)

Still, mine has already been modded down Offtopic so it won't be visible for much longer.

Re:Slashdot is for fags

[mcgrew]

Unfortunately they modded me up, I should have been downmodded for being offtopic as well.

Re:Slashdot is for fags

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

Unfortunately they modded me up, I should have been downmodded for being offtopic as well.

It always seems to me that offtopic should be reserved for a reply that's not relevant to the post it's attached to.

Your first post was technically offtopic because it changed the subject; but our subsequent conversation has been on-topic for the thread, just not for the article...

Apple must be trembling with fear

[DickBreath]

Poor Apple. Considering the vast capital of innovative thinking that is Microsoft, Apple must be seriously worried about how the Surface tablet will competitively affect the iPad.

Consider how badly Microsoft has hurt Apple in the past with products like:

• * Windows Phone 7 vs the iPhone
• * Zune vs the iPod
• * Plays Fer Shore vs the iPod
• * Windows 3.1 vs the classic Mac System 7

If Microsoft's tablet has round corners, then we know they will be in serious legal trouble.

Re:Apple must be trembling with fear

[bondsbw]

Windows 3.1 vs the classic Mac System 7

I seem to recall Windows 3.1 being the point where Windows started to dominate the desktop OS market.

And why stop there, what about Windows 95, 98, NT, 2000, XP, 2003, 2008, 7 as compared with Mac OS during those same years? OS X has come a long way, but it still has a long way to go.

(I have a MacBook and I love Mac OS X. But give me a break, at least make your arguments sound.)

Re:Apple must be trembling with fear

[vlm]

If Microsoft's tablet has round corners, then we know they will be in serious legal trouble.

The MS tablet will be brown and it'll "squirt". Remember the Zune? Wasn't very ipod like.

Re:Apple must be trembling with fear

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

You do remeber the time where apple was a couple days from insolvency, right? MS in conjunction with OEM partners did make better computers than apple for most of the 90's. Win 3.1 was the begining of the end for Mac domminance of home systems. It really wasn't that much worse.

Re:Apple must be trembling with fear

[somersault]

Wasn't that much worse? The window manager was fucking horrible compared to the Macs and Amigas that I was used to..

Re:Apple must be trembling with fear

[aristotle-dude]

If Microsoft's tablet has round corners, then we know they will be in serious legal trouble.

The MS tablet will be brown and it'll "squirt". Remember the Zune? Wasn't very ipod like.

It will also have frequent core dumps.

Re:Apple must be trembling with fear

[Pieroxy]

If Microsoft's tablet has round corners, then we know they will be in serious legal trouble.

The MS tablet will be brown and it'll "squirt". Remember the Zune? Wasn't very ipod like.

It will also have frequent core dumps.

Please refrain from using Unix terminology. Windows 8 will be equipped with Dr Watson Sr. That's what you should call the equivalent of a core dump now.

Re:Apple must be trembling with fear

[Pieroxy]

Wasn't that much worse? The window manager was fucking horrible compared to the Macs and Amigas that I was used to..

It still is to a large enough extent.

Re:Apple must be trembling with fear

[Anonymous Coward]

you should probably read that vanityfair article

"As development took off, Microsoft engineers dumped a grab bag of functions into Longhorn. Huge teams were assigned to the effort, but despite all the work, the launch was postponed again and again. The program took as long as 10 minutes to boot up. It was unstable and frequently crashed.

Then, in June 2004, Steve Jobs announced that Apple was releasing its new operating system, called “Tiger.” And inside Microsoft, jaws dropped. Tiger did much of what was planned for Longhorn—except that it worked.

E-mails flew around Microsoft, expressing dismay about the quality of Tiger. To executives’ disbelief, it contained functional equivalents of Avalon and WinFS.

“It was fucking amazing,” wrote Lenn Pryor, part of the Longhorn team. “It is like I just got a free pass to Longhorn land today.”

Vic Gundotra, another member of the group, tried out Tiger. “Their Avalon competitor (core video, core image) was hot,” he wrote. “I have the cool widgets (dashboard) running on my MAC right now with all the effects [Jobs] showed on stage. I’ve had no crashes in 5 hours.”

The videoconferencing function? “Amazing,” Gundotra wrote. Scripting software? “Very cool.”

The Gundotra e-mail was sent to executives throughout Microsoft headquarters, including Allchin. He forwarded it to Gates and Ballmer, adding his name and one word: “Sigh ”

Longhorn was doomed."

http://www.vanityfair.com/business/2012/08/microsoft-lost-mojo-steve-ballmer

Re:Apple must be trembling with fear

[Anonymous Coward]

MSDOS had over 80% of the market. WP7, Zune, and PlaysForSure were all late entries into existing markets that were either underpowered, overpriced, or unwanted for what they offered. As someone that uses all 3 major operating systems and would love to dump Microsoft for good, the Surface tablet is the one i'm holding out for. My one and only concern is pricing, if it's under $500 it's an instant-buy. I would much rather have a tablet running a desktop OS than a tablet running a phone OS.

Re:Apple must be trembling with fear

[mcgrew]

I seem to recall Windows 3.1 being the point where Windows started to dominate the desktop OS market.

Microsoft dominated the desktop OS market ever since the IBM PC. Before that, CP/M dominated. Apple never did dominate the desktop market. They may have dominated the home market in the late '80s, but if so it didn't last long. Most people at home were using TRS-80, Amiga, Commmodore, etc. When DOS PCs were way too expensive for normal people, Apples were even more expensive.

Re:Apple must be trembling with fear

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple was never in that shape. They had billions in the bank. The issue was MS continuing Office support

Re:Apple must be trembling with fear

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple was never in that shape. They had billions in the bank. The issue was MS continuing Office support

“We were 90 days from going bankrupt.” - Steve Jobs.

More details. and from a Mac fan site perspective

So basically, yes, they were in that shape, no, they did not have billions in the bank.

Re:Apple must be trembling with fear

[backdoc]

Microsoft should release it with their own patented "non-rounded corners". Then, no one will ever be able to compete with either Microsoft or Apple, unless of course some smart aleck comes up with a "jagged corner" patent or something.

Re:Apple must be trembling with fear

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

PC's were so much cheaper, that people were willing to put up with it for the price. It beat the heck out of using a special purpopse word processor or a typewriter. There was a lot of good and cheap software availible as well.

Re:Apple must be trembling with fear

[Anonymous Coward]

So basically, yes, they were in that shape, no, they did not have billions in the bank.

As of June 27, 1997, the last quarter before Microsoft "saved" Apple with its $150 million, Apple reported having $1 billion in cash and equivalents, and another $200 million in short-term investments.

So if Apple was "90 days from going bankrupt" with its $1 billion of cash on hand at that time, then Microsoft's $150 million gift would have given Apple an additional two weeks of operating capital.

Re:Apple must be trembling with fear

[ninjacut]

Apple has done a great job, but others are not standing still - http://www.businessinsider.com/chart-of-the-day-microsofts-massive-windows-sales-compared-to-apple-2010-7

Re:Apple must be trembling with fear

[Anonymous Coward]

Poor Apple. Considering the vast capital of innovative thinking that is Microsoft, Apple must be seriously worried about how the Surface tablet will competitively affect the iPad.

Somebody didn't get the memo:
“Apple doesn't have to lose for Microsoft to Win. Microsoft doesn't have to lose for Apple to win” WWDC 1997.

Consider how badly Microsoft has hurt Apple in the past with products

You missed over a decade where Apple were in the shit and being dominated by Microsoft.

Re:Apple must be trembling with fear

[Mitaphane]

OS X has come a long way, but it still has a long way to go.

Long way to go for what, market share?

It's pretty clear what Apple's strategy is: sell devices at premium prices to people who value simplicity, stability and reliability over an abundant one-size-fits-all feature set. All they have to do is make quality products and convince the consumer it's worth their premium price. They've done it with the iPhone/iPad thanks to the lower price points and carrier subsidies. The introduction of the Surface shows that MS fears that Apple has already done it for the desktop/workstation computer.

As nice a product as the Surface looks to be, I think Metro's hybrid desktop/tablet interface (another abundant one-size-fits-all feature set) is just going to confuse many customers and push them toward alternative tablets or desktops depending on their use case.

Re:Apple must be trembling with fear

[rsborg]

Windows 3.1 vs the classic Mac System 7

I seem to recall Windows 3.1 being the point where Windows started to dominate the desktop OS market

Which it cannibalized from it's command-line OS (MS-DOS) market-share dominance. Fact remains, Microsoft basically inherited dominance of the computing market from IBM who foolishly ceeded rights to Microsoft for their OS - combined with the clones, Apple really didn't stand much of a chance, nor did they ever have much marketshare (despite their mindshare).

Consequently, Apple's vision of post-pc reality is shaped by their previous failure to dominate the direction of computing - through supply-chain wizardry, patent control (some would say abuse, but the USPTO has been asleep at the wheel for sometime if not outright corrupt), and wise business deals that outprice or lock out competitors while providing a usable, desirable product for their users.

All of this is a bit academic, however - in a few years Android will be even more dominant in the mobile (possibly mainstream by then) space - Android/ARM will utterly destroy Microsoft, and even Apple will have a hard time fighting it.

Re:Apple must be trembling with fear

[gmhowell]

90>>'a couple'

Re:Apple must be trembling with fear

[AmiMoJo]

Apple's strategy is to leverage the reality distortion field to make their products desirable.

Re:Apple must be trembling with fear

[Anonymous Coward]

So basically, yes, they were in that shape, no, they did not have billions in the bank.

As of June 27, 1997, the last quarter before Microsoft "saved" Apple with its $150 million, Apple reported having $1 billion in cash and equivalents, and another $200 million in short-term investments.

So if Apple was "90 days from going bankrupt" with its $1 billion of cash on hand at that time, then Microsoft's $150 million gift would have given Apple an additional two weeks of operating capital.

You realize you are disputing Steve Jobs version of the situation (see the interviews)? Good to know your insight into the situation trumps his.

So basically no news then?

[UnknowingFool]

I would 't read too much into the loss of profit declaration. New product launches cost money and new products may not make profit for some time until after the launch to recoup costs. As a general rule, financial statements disclose risks like this all the time. The issue will be six months to a year after launch. If Surface isn't profitable by then, that would be news.

Uhh..

[Anonymous Coward]

So why the fuck is this under apple.slashdot.org? Maybe it's time for /. to be slightly less biased and add a ms.slashdot.org?

Re:Uhh..

[Anonymous Coward]

Fanboy Jimmies have been rustled...

Re:Uhh..

[Atzanteol]

The AC makes a point. WTF?

Re:Uhh..

[tehcyder]

So why the fuck is this under apple.slashdot.org? Maybe it's time for /. to be slightly less biased and add a ms.slashdot.org?

You're a funny guy. Have a cigar.

Rule 1: Copy your competitor

[mrthoughtful]

Let them make the mistakes. Go cheap. Go even cheaper.
It worked quite well with Windows. It failed with the Zune.
It will fail with this release of Surface also.
Asking all your customers to buy a new copy of MS Office? Not a great idea.

I loved the MS idea of a fully collaborative,contextually aware, common screen surface.
If they could get that working outside of marketing videos, cheap enough for the consumer, it could be quite fun.

Re:Rule 1: Copy your competitor

[Anonymous Coward]

Asking all your customers to buy a new copy of MS Office? Not a great idea.

Please elaborate.

Re:Rule 1: Copy your competitor

[avandesande]

I know lots of corporate people that have been banging their head against the wall trying to integrate iPADS and plan on gobbling Surface tablets up as soon as they are released.

Re:Rule 1: Copy your competitor

[Anonymous Coward]

Asking all your customers to buy a new copy of MS Office? Not a great idea.

The ARM version will have Office built in.

Re:Rule 1: Copy your competitor

[Lynchenstein]

I've been in want of an Asus Transformer-style Windows Tabtop for well over a year. But I still won't be buying one unless it has a cell radio built in. I want my mobile electronics to be mobile, not tethered to some hokey hotspot.

Re:Rule 1: Copy your competitor

[Anonymous Coward]

>Asking all your customers to buy a new copy of MS Office? Not a great idea.

Unless I'm COMPLETELY misreading your post, which is entirely likely, I believe that office is included with the tablet versions of Windows 8. It may just be the RT version, but as I undrestand it, office is bundled in for free.

Not gonna happen.

[sootman]

> We'll soon find out whether Microsoft has what it
> takes to take on the seemingly indomitable iPad.

Spoiler: No.

Re:Not gonna happen.

[Un pobre guey]

By "soon" they must mean within the next millisecond? Retrospectively over the past 20 years? Are they actually suggesting that we need to wait a few months and examine empirical data, otherwise there is some sort of doubt regarding the outcome? Microsoft investors believe it is worth spending hundreds of millions of dollars over a year or two of going through the motions in order to be certain that the answer is a clear-cut "no?" Why don't they just give me the money? I can fuck things up just as well as they can.

I think.

Which one? Surface or Surface RT?

[Anonymous Coward]

Which one? the x86 one with the short battery life, or the Arm one with the lack of apps?

Seriously Microsoft's is trying a 'divide and conquer' strategy ON ITSELF! Instead of focusing on delivering one good product in a competitive market, it's delivery two so so ones.

When this fails, can we finally see the back of Ballmer??

Re:Which one? Surface or Surface RT?

[quetwo]

It's not Divide and Conquer, it's "Doubling Down." Lets place two bets on the same table with two different strategies. There is no way you CAN lose! ugh.

Re:Which one? Surface or Surface RT?

[LynnwoodRooster]

The new Intel Medfield processor (X86 based) is very competitive with the ARM architectures when it comes to processing power and battery life. A tablet powered with a Medfield processor should provide plenty of battery life. And since it's X86 based, it'll run all those Windows apps.

Re:Which one? Surface or Surface RT?

[Anonymous Coward]

All of the apps that will be in the app store will run on ARM. The x86 version will be able to run regular programs built for x86 in addition to the app store apps. There will be no x86 apps in the app store. I guess you're referring to regular windows software built for x86 as "apps," but it's misleading in this context. The app store apps have a very specific set of guidelines and a specific API that works on ARM.

Do you expect MS to implement x86 virtualization for the ARM platform, or something? That's a little silly at this point. Considering how they would perform.

Re:Which one? Surface or Surface RT?

[colinrichardday]

If you make equal bets on every space in roulette, you're guaranteed to lose.

Re:Which one? Surface or Surface RT?

[rsborg]

The new Intel Medfield processor (X86 based) is very competitive with the ARM architectures when it comes to processing power and battery life. A tablet powered with a Medfield processor should provide plenty of battery life. And since it's X86 based, it'll run all those Windows apps.

Were it that simple - all those apps that are touch-insensitive. Let's face it - customer is screwed if they want existing x86 apps on a tablet - it is not in the interest of Microsoft, nor Intel, nor even the (big) software shops. Which leaves the Metro divide - new hardware (profits for manufacturers and Intel!), new software licenses (yay for software devs - profit!) and new framework that is touch-competetive with Android and iOS (survival for MS's monopoly rents - yay for MS!).

Of course, the alternative is an iPad with iCloud, 4G built-in and years of UI framework that has resulted in real and usable apps. Combined with SaaS/Cloud solutions, this could be a winner for the enterprise.

I wonder what the devs and users will choose?

Re:Which one? Surface or Surface RT?

[tehcyder]

If you make equal bets on every space in roulette, you're guaranteed to lose.

Yes, but you're guaranteed to not lose everything.

History (was Re:Isn't there a "late to the game..)

[WillAdams]

No, Microsoft has been flogging the pen computer game for a _long_ while:

1992 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_for_Pen_Computing

while Apple only formally got in the game later:

1993 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MessagePad

(and then bailed when Steve Jobs came back on board)

Though both were inspired by Go Corp.'s PenPoint:

1991 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PenPoint_OS

but one should look farther back still:

1914--1990 http://users.erols.com/rwservices/pens/penhist.html

Microsoft crashed the initial party (read Jerry Kaplan's _StartUp_), partied in a room which quickly emptied, tried to re-start the party many times (sort-of-successfully w/ their Tablet PC in 2002), then was surprised when Apple started a rave (the iPad) somewhere else in town.

If it's possible to install Mac OS X on the Surface, I may buy one.

William

Both of them?

[phonewebcam]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-pMZd1fupw

Re:Both of them?

[stressclq]

C'mon obviously he was "holding it wrong"..

Except that MS isn't competing with the ipad

[milkasing]

.. it is trying to create a new niche. One that has more in common with the ultra book market than iPads. Something that plays nice with business / enterprise setup. Surface could become a hit without making a dent in iPad sales.

Re:Except that MS isn't competing with the ipad

[am 2k]

The niche between the iPad niche and the ultrabook niche? Must have been a genius who came up with this.

Re:Except that MS isn't competing with the ipad

[Col. Klink (retired)]

.. it is trying to create a new niche.

Microsoft is happy with niche markets now? Back in 2009, Balmer said I'm glad we're doing a great job with the other 96 and a half percent." We was perfectly fine with Apple having their little three and a half percent.

Of course, this isn't the first niche MS has tried to carve out. The Zune wasn't competing with iPods, it was a whole new niche of social media players. Just like that amazing niche market of social phones served by the KIN line.

Re:Except that MS isn't competing with the ipad

[JDG1980]

.. it is trying to create a new niche. One that has more in common with the ultra book market than iPads. Something that plays nice with business / enterprise setup.

The problem with that argument is that the Surface tablet runs WinRT, which can't join Windows domains. (The more expensive Surface Pro is an x86 tablet that can, but if they're aiming for business use, why even bother with the cheaper offering that doesn't do what is needed?)

Re:Except that MS isn't competing with the ipad

[UnknowingFool]

Well except for the fact that most of Win 8 is geared towards consumers. Other than a slightly more touch friendly Office, MS is reliant on the BYOD concept for their adoption. I don't see a lot of enterprise features in Win 8 that businesses will be wanting.

Re:Except that MS isn't competing with the ipad

[Anonymous Coward]

Simple - home/casual users. Like the Ipad.

Re:Except that MS isn't competing with the ipad

[JDG1980]

Simple - home/casual users. Like the Ipad.

But that raises the obvious question: why would home/casual users want to choose the Surface over the iPad? It won't be much cheaper (if any), it won't have nearly as many apps available, and it won't be considered as cool or stylish. The iPad is already the de facto standard tablet, and Microsoft faces a steep uphill climb if they want to dislodge it. Between the iPad on the high end and the various cheap Android tablets (Kindle Fire, Nexus 7) on the low end, where is there room for Surface in the consumer market?

Re:Except that MS isn't competing with the ipad

[Anonymous Coward]

The niche between the iPad niche and the ultrabook niche? Must have been a genius who came up with this.

YMMV, I'm travelling frequently both with an iPad (for entertainment use, not at least in-flight) and an ultraportabel PC (for work). If somebody creates a niche that covers both in one device so I can leave one at home this genius sure has the vote of my wallet.

Re:Except that MS isn't competing with the ipad

[Kotoku]

Its funny to see you categorize the nexus 7 as low end, since every performance related spec exceeds that of the ipad. Marketing machine of Apple catches another?

Re:Except that MS isn't competing with the ipad

[FranTaylor]

"low-end" refers to price.

Mustangs have big powerful engines but they are "low-end" vehicles when it comes to comfort and safety.

Re:Except that MS isn't competing with the ipad

[JDG1980]

Its funny to see you categorize the nexus 7 as low end, since every performance related spec exceeds that of the ipad.

Not the one that really counts: the iPad 3 has a 9.7-inch screen with a 2048x1536 resolution (264 ppi), while the Nexus 7 has a 7-inch screen with a 1280x800 resolution (216 ppi). Since a tablet is pretty much all screen from a UI perspective, this difference is far more important than having a slightly faster CPU. (Not to mention that iOS is often considered a more polished user interface experience than Android.) Quad-core is overkill for tablets anyway; what, are you planning to run x264 on it or something? It's a web surfing / ebook / media consumption device.

Re:Except that MS isn't competing with the ipad

[siddesu]

The 7 inch screen and the lighter weight are serious advantages. The difference in resolution is academic, it does not matter in daily use.

Re:Except that MS isn't competing with the ipad

[Anonymous Coward]

The niche between the iPad niche and the ultrabook niche? Must have been a genius who came up with this.

You might want to enlighten yourself wrt the meaning of the word 'niche', neither the ipad nor ultrabooks cater to a niche market in terms of computing devices.

Re:Except that MS isn't competing with the ipad

[Anonymous Coward]

But that raises the obvious question: why would home/casual users want to choose the Surface over the iPad?

That's like saying 'what's the point of the Mac or desktop linux when we already have a defacto standard'.

Microsoft faces a steep uphill climb if they want to dislodge it.

Why would they need to? Why are people so hung up on 'beating the ipad'? They don't have to completely dominate the market to be successful.

it won't be considered as cool or stylish

Such things are not set in stone, these days apple is bog standard (most common smartphone in the world, most common tablet in the world), their devices are just the default choice these days, much like Windows in the desktop and laptop markets.

Re:Except that MS isn't competing with the ipad

[Anonymous Coward]

Not the one that really counts: the iPad 3 has a 9.7-inch screen with a 2048x1536 resolution (264 ppi), while the Nexus 7 has a 7-inch screen with a 1280x800 resolution (216 ppi).

You realize most people aren't even going to be able to tell the difference between 216 and 264 ppi? And i'll bet it didn't really 'count' before the ipad3, it certainly hasn't been a driver in the PC market either and now all of a sudden it's the be all and end all to have the highest pixel density!

Re:Except that MS isn't competing with the ipad

[tehcyder]

But that raises the obvious question: why would home/casual users want to choose the Surface over the iPad?

Speaking personally, the answer would be "because it's not made by fucking Apple" which I don't suppose is going to down too well in the apple.slahdot.org section.

Re:Except that MS isn't competing with the ipad

[tehcyder]

1280x880 resolution is fine on a 10 inch screen, never mind a 7 inch.

You're basically using it to look at pix and videos. I don't care if you've got a 20 inch screen with 4096 x 3072 resolution, the YouTube vid your friend links to from facebook is not going to look any better.

Re:Except that MS isn't competing with the ipad

[tehcyder]

Not the one that really counts: the iPad 3 has a 9.7-inch screen with a 2048x1536 resolution (264 ppi), while the Nexus 7 has a 7-inch screen with a 1280x800 resolution (216 ppi).

You realize most people aren't even going to be able to tell the difference between 216 and 264 ppi? And i'll bet it didn't really 'count' before the ipad3, it certainly hasn't been a driver in the PC market either and now all of a sudden it's the be all and end all to have the highest pixel density!

I'm reminded of the digital camera megapixel gold rush a few years ago. Never mind that your camera had a tiny plastic lens and was made out of milk carton quality materials, as long as it had +1m more megapixels than another camera it had to be better.

Incidentally, now that the cameras in smartphones are better quality than 99% of people need, I assume the whole market for cheap digital cameras has evaporated except for throwaway priced kids' cameras?

Marketing campaign started too early?

[SnowHog]

Even if it was released tomorrow it would feel anticlimactic. I feel like I've been hearing about this thing for months.

Re:Marketing campaign started too early?

[wjousts]

Well, we start hearing about the iPhone n+1 almost immediately after the release of the iPhone n, and it doesn't seem to have harmed Apple any.

Re:Marketing campaign started too early?

[UnknowingFool]

The difference is Apple doesn't put out those rumors. They are usually by third parties. MS put out this one themselves. It had been a tactic for MS to pre-announce products like this to keep customers from going to a competitor. That would almost kill competing products. But times have changed. The response now is that most companies no longer will wait just for the MS version.

Re:Marketing campaign started too early?

[Cinnamon Whirl]

Tim Cook said Apple's lower than forecast profits (last week) were blamed on people waiting for the iPhone 5.
http://apple.slashdot.org/story/12/07/25/0436256/apple-blames-earnings-miss-on-iphone-5-anticipation

Re:Marketing campaign started too early?

[FranTaylor]

And he revealed how many details exactly about this new phone?

Re:Marketing campaign started too early?

[lilfields]

Yet Samsung sales were through the roof...maybe the reality is that iPhones are in decline with some of their market? You don't want to spook investors.

Re:Marketing campaign started too early?

[Anonymous Coward]

The difference is Apple doesn't put out those rumors.

Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Hah.

Prices

[wjousts]

Any word on pricing?

Re:Prices

[Anonymous Coward]

Prices? Seriously? Turn in your geek card now! Nobody with a clue (tech clue, I guess) is going to buy a tablet that is locked down and sold with being locked down as a "feature" unless they absolutely have to. No real geek wants to be MS's bitch.

Re:Prices

[Anonymous Coward]

Prices? Seriously? Turn in your geek card now! Nobody with a clue (tech clue, I guess) is going to buy a tablet that is locked down and sold with being locked down as a "feature" unless they absolutely have to.

So you didn't buy an iPad then?

Re:Prices

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah geeks prefer to be Apple's bitch!

Re:Prices

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope. I own a B&N Nook and a HP tablet, both running hacked up Android. This level of tech is not only for "neck-beards". My mom uses a hacked HP. If she can figure it out then anyone can!

Re:Prices

[wjousts]

I didn't say I was gonna buy it fucktard? Strawman much? I'm interested in seeing what price point they are going for versus the iPad. It'll indicate whether or not they are really trying to take on Apple directly.

I don't care either way, I don't have a need for a tablet, or a smart phone for that matter.

Re:Prices

[Anonymous Coward]

I pity your mother. She's never going to get use of that basement.

Re:Prices

[Anonymous Coward]

You sound stressed and defensive. Put down the clip and step away from the assault rifle.

Re:Prices

[tehcyder]

Nope. I own a B&N Nook and a HP tablet, both running hacked up Android. This level of tech is not only for "neck-beards". My mom uses a hacked HP. If she can figure it out then anyone can!

What's the point of "hacking up" Android if you're just going to watch YouTube videos on it like everyone else does?

Oh, let me guess, your Android tablet is in act used to remotely control the nuclear power station where you are Chief (Imaginary) Operating Officer.

$1150 - $2150 USD

[Anonymous Coward]

Surface seems nice until you hear it'll be between $1,150 (simplest 32GB) and $2,475 (128GB) USD.
No thanks. :(

http://www.webhallen.com/se-sv/sok/?Change=1&Text=microsoft+surface&SectionId
http://frontpage.fok.nl/nieuws/554604/1/1/100/microsoft-surface-kost-tussen-de-800-en-1800-euro.html

Why did they want to call it "surface"?

[mark-t]

... when they already had a (much lesser known, admittedly) product named "Surface"?

I understand they've renamed their table computer, but I don't think I've ever seen any explaination on what motivated them to want to change the name of that and call their new tablet "Surface" instead.

Re:Why did they want to call it "surface"?

[fwarren]

I understand they've renamed their table computer, but I don't think I've ever seen any explaination on what motivated them to want to change the name of that and call their new tablet "Surface" instead.

They are hoping it wont be in the red, the want to break even, get their head above the "surface" of the water to not drown?

Re:Why did they want to call it "surface"?

[Anonymous Coward]

watch at 31:30: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jozTK-MqEXQ

Re:Why did they want to call it "surface"?

[CCarrot]

... when they already had a (much lesser known, admittedly) product named "Surface"?

I understand they've renamed their table computer, but I don't think I've ever seen any explaination on what motivated them to want to change the name of that and call their new tablet "Surface" instead.

That was my thought exactly! When I first heard that they would be coming out with the Surface, I was all "ooh, table-sized touch interfaces are finally on the way! Hello new coffee/gaming table!"

The return to reality was quite a letdown...seriously, board games and RPGs could be so much fun on one of those things :(

Re:Why did they want to call it "surface"?

[steveha]

I thought that was pretty obvious.

Microsoft has just stepped hard on their OEMs' feet. Many of the companies with which Microsoft does business are not happy that Microsoft is now going to be competing with them in this product space, and Microsoft will have a huge advantage because MS makes the OEMs pay a lot for the software. So the whole Surface project was wrapped in secrecy for as long as possible.

If MS had filed for a new trademark on "MS KeyTablet" or something, that would have tipped their hand early. "Surface" was a trademark that MS already had, and they didn't have a big investment in that as a brand for giant tables. So "Surface" let MS hold the secret as long as possible, while still having a trademarked brand they could use from day 0.

P.S. MS has re-branded the giant table product as "PixelSense".

steveha

Re:Why did they want to call it "surface"?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think they just really liked the name (I think it quite a good name).

Since a full sized touch table is pretty unlikey to be a massive consumer hit, they simply appropriated the name for the smaller, still-touch-based tablet.

That said, didn't they call something the 'slate' when the original ipad was rumoured to be called the iSlate? S words are easy to say.

Re:Why did they want to call it "surface"?

[tehcyder]

P.S. MS has re-branded the giant table product as "PixelSense".

Might as well have called it PixieDust, it's got about the same likelihood of ever appearing in shops.

Re:History (was Re:Isn't there a "late to the game

[mystikkman]

If it's possible to install Mac OS X on the Surface, I may buy one.

Aside from the fact that you'd be waiting for the x86 version(which was suggested to be launching 90 days after the RT version being discussed in the FA), what good will that do because OS X does not support touch?\

Well, of course you should be able to use it as a more portable Macbook Air, but I guess that's it. Using it as a tablet might be an exercise in frustration.

Sure they are...

[Shivetya]

they just won't admit it because everyone wants a slice of that pie but most cannot even get to the table.

MS's other issue is that if rumors hold true a new smaller iPad hits stores in September. I still think MS blew it by announcing a product they could ship at the time they announced it.

Rule #1 now is, do not announce what is not shipping now. Apple already exploits the magic in that phrase, NOW SHIPPING

But does it run Linux?

[Teun]

I'm serious with the question if it runs Linux.
What we've so far seen from Win8 (Metro) is on a regular PC possibly a pig but that does not yet make it good on a tablet.

Looking at the hardware I feel it would be really sweet with the tablet version of KDE.

Re:But does it run Linux?

[gl4ss]

surface pro will(most probably, 99.999% chance). surface rt will not.

Re:But does it run Linux?

[DrXym]

Any tablet can run Linux assuming you can circumvent whatever bootloader protections are there to stop you changing the image.

Re:But does it run Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

One of the problems with the Raspberry Pi is compiling Linux distros that work well on an ARM processor. That's why Debian Squeeze and a special verison of Fedora are the main boot environments for that device. Ubuntu is testing an ARM-based distro, but the last I heard, it doesn't boot on a Pi. It might boot on a Surface RT, with beefier hardware under the hood, but until the product is released, we can't really play with it. As for Secure Boot, Red Hat and Ubuntu have made different, but still highly controversial, moves to circumvent that problem on x86 systems (e.g., the Surface Pro), and that can of worms is still spilling fish bait all over the place.

Re:But does it run Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

There *isn't* a problem on x86 to circumvent. Anyone can install their own key or a distro key on their own hardware. ARM is a different story, but all software has bugs...

Re:History (was Re:Isn't there a "late to the game

[gl4ss]

well.. there's already 3rd party touch maclaptops. they repurpose apple hw to get around "not on apple hw" legal limitations and practicalities. some people find them useful.

i quit caring

[nimbius]

after the android honeycomb. none of these devices has made me more productive or enriched my life by any measurable degree. each just seems to be another pitchfork with which to mine my personal information and induce me to consume more crap i dont need.

Can't wait!

[elabs]

The Surface will be my next hardware purchase. I wish we could preorder them now.

apple.slashdot.org

[Anonymous Coward]

why is this filed under 'apple'?

Re:History (was Re:Isn't there a "late to the game

[WillAdams]

I'd thought the Surface had an active stylus --- w/ a stylus, Mac OS X works quite nicely and even includes some basic inking options in apps which specifically support such, and has a ``Write Anywhere'' feature w/ handwriting recognition.

One potential benefit of Suface

[DrXym]

Though I'm a fan of Android, the support for physical keyboards and pointing devices is pretty bloody awful. I have an Asus Transformer and I run into a shocking number of issues with focus, with text selection, with clipboard behaviour, with tab order (or not) and with the mouse.

A trivial issue with the problems with the mouse - fire up a web browser and cursor over a link. Does the link change shape? Of course not. Does the transformer offer any tools to change the sensitivity of the trackpad to prevent inadvertent brushing from changing focus? Of course not. Is there any consistency at all from one app to the next in this stuff? Nope.

While I would see no reason to use a Windows RT / Windows 8 on a tablet for the time being I think it will have vastly superior mouse and keyboard support due to its heritage.

No, I disagree (respectfully)

[King_TJ]

The parent poster is putting forth a sound theory, but I'm going to have to disagree with it.

Ultimately, the problem is, I don't think most people see the tablet form-factor as ideal. It's great in certain scenarios, which happen to be the ones traditional desktop or portable computers fail at. (I'm talking about such things as trying to use one while lying in bed, or while standing up and walking around. I'm also talking about comfortably reading for extended periods of time while seated in any random chair or couch.)

Since the iPad is the established "standard" in this area, with a massive ecosystem of software apps built up for it, there's little reason to switch from it. But that also means there's probably little reason to duplicate the hardware with ANOTHER tablet form-factor device. The Ultrabooks on the market still fulfill the tasks we've been doing for years with slightly larger notebook computers. They've got actual keyboards built in and their screens fold up at various angles for easy reading while you sit the entire thing on a flat surface. They've got battery life equivalent to the iPads and other such tablets, too, so that's been addressed. They'll even run the SAME operating system Microsoft is pushing for the new Surface tablets. So where's the real motivation to migrate to the Surface?

Re:No, I disagree (respectfully)

[Gideon Wells]

Logically, nothing. Practicality, sometimes it is the small thing. When looking for my latest vehicle I was dead set on a hatchback for that extra storage if needed. I have a desktop, laptop, and tablet. Each has their place. You accept this already. I am excited over Surface (at least Surface RT) despite owning a iPad already.

Why migrate away from the "iPad" standard?

1) The freaking stylus. I get Jobs hated styluses because he never got over the period you were forced to use them. I get everyone wants to copy his "genius". Still, there are times when I want to write on my digital tablet like it is actually a tablet. Using my finger on an iPad feels like I'm writing out notes with a highlighter. Using a third party stylus feels like a crayon. Microsoft is recognizing some of us want to use pens. Maybe I'm wrong, but this is something that I haven't seen in Android or iOS yet.

2) Why I say Surface RT and not just Surface. Same operating system as my computer at home. I can use the same software. Sure, it may not be wise to install Steam and/or Photoshop to this thing. At least I know I can readily chance between them with similar environments with programs I use across each.

Why not an ultrabook?
1) I don't own one. My laptop was my main computer before I admitted I needed something with more power for my photo/video editing jobs. I see laptops as portable home offices. Ultrabooks are too small for my taste as a laptop. To me, Ultrabooks are like the GMS Caballero. Some look cool, but in the end if I want a vehicle with a bed I'd be looking at a truck. Not a car.

2) There are times when having an ultrabook might be useful. The Surface RT is a tablet that can become an impromptu ultrabook much easier than any ultrabook I've seen so far can become an impromptu tablet. I like that little keyboard cover. If needed, it is there. If not? Hey, just fold it out of the way. It has just enough form factor to feel like real keys instead of pecking at glass.

tl;dr:

So to get back to a car analogy. I see the ultrabook as trying to be a GMC Caballero. The iPad and most tablets as simply being cars or compact cars with trunks. I see the Surface RT as a hatchback car. Sometimes you need that versatility.

Re:No, I disagree (respectfully)

[CCarrot]

Why migrate away from the "iPad" standard?

1) The freaking stylus. I get Jobs hated styluses because he never got over the period you were forced to use them. I get everyone wants to copy his "genius". Still, there are times when I want to write on my digital tablet like it is actually a tablet. Using my finger on an iPad feels like I'm writing out notes with a highlighter. Using a third party stylus feels like a crayon. Microsoft is recognizing some of us want to use pens. Maybe I'm wrong, but this is something that I haven't seen in Android or iOS yet.

They're out there, at least for Android. And they're sooo much better than crayons :)

Re:No, I disagree (respectfully)

[Tapewolf]

Why I say Surface RT and not just Surface. Same operating system as my computer at home. I can use the same software.

I think you may be confused, because you can't do what you're claiming. Unless things have changed, RT is the brain-damaged one that can only run Metro apps, 'pro' is probably the one you're thinking of.

Re:No, I disagree (respectfully)

[Gideon Wells]

D**m it. You're right. Long day, and my brain was a bit addled.

Re:No, I disagree (respectfully)

[rsborg]

So to get back to a car analogy. I see the ultrabook as trying to be a GMC Caballero.

If that's the case, then how come all the laptop vendors are pushing to make their laptops look and feel like a Macbook Air? I have a feeling your analogy doesn't hold.

You can make a 11" MB Air (or equivalent ultrabook or even souped up netbook) be as responsive as a much larger laptop. In fact, given it only comes with a (very fast) SSD, it's a given that it will outperform almost any non-SSD laptop when it comes to anything processing even mildly relying on storage speed (even compared with the MB Pro). Processors, memory and storage have overtaken software's capacity to utilize it in recent years.

The MB Air (and the ultrabooks after it) are what all laptops will look in a few years... just like almost all cars today have unibody construction, cab-forward design, rack-and-pinion steering and other innovative features in years past. It's not a new category. It's the future of laptops.

The Surface? I still don't get the idea of a pen-based or touch-based laptop. The transformer (prime) is what the surface wants to be and it's not a runaway hit. The synthesis/hybrid of touch based UI and WiMP interaction models is unwieldy, and absent some UI innovation, is weaker than either interaction model alone taken to it's extreme (as is the case with a pure tablet or laptop).

Re:No, I disagree (respectfully)

[Anonymous Coward]

The MB Air (and the ultrabooks after it) are what all laptops will look in a few years..

Just to let you know, whilst the MB Air was stylish it was preceded by a long line of ultraportable laptops from the likes of Dell and IBM.

To this day my Dell D430 is still lighter than the MB Air and, yes, it does fit into a brown manila transit envelope.

Re:No, I disagree (respectfully)

[Tapewolf]

No problem, just as long as you end up with the right one...

Re:No, I disagree (respectfully)

[tehcyder]

I'm with you all the way on the stylus. I'd much rather have a stylus than a bastard capacitative touch screen which gets smudgy as fuck and has the precision of a brick in a sock.

Re:No, I disagree (respectfully)

[tehcyder]

No problem, just as long as you end up with the right one...

For "right one" you can presumably read "expensive one".

Re:No, I disagree (respectfully)

[tehcyder]

I still don't get the idea of a pen-based or touch-based laptop.

It's simple: capacitative touchscreens are the work of the devil. They are slow and unwieldly and inaccurate and frustrating and annoying.

A device for looking at pictures or playing videos isn't a computer. Personally, I find those electronic photoframes easier to navigate than a fucking iPad.

no

[Tom]

We don't have to wait. We already know that they don't. This time, however, we don't even have to fight over that, as MS Surface isn't even competing with the iPad. It's targeting a different segment of the same market, but very few people who buy iPads would even consider the MS tablet.

You know, the same way that a Mercedes E and a VW Beetle don't really compete with each other even though both are cars.

We All Win

[Scot Seese]

I'm cheering for Microsoft.

Competition is good.

I purchased an iPad 1, used it for less than two months and sold it to a friend for half what I paid for it. I wanted it to be so much more than it was - more than they still are. Steve gave his amazing presentation, I swooned - I drank the kool-aid. I was Captain Picard, carrying my StarFleet tablet around. Then I bought one.

They are just 10" iPod Touches.

I wanted to be able to prop it up and type papers on it. I purchased the sleek 3rd party bluetooth keyboard/case combo. They keys were a compromise, tiny, poor travel, poor to type on. So I bought the Apple wireless keyboard. Apple's Pages software was friendly, and easy to use, but failed utterly to have any true usefulness in a world where Microsoft Word so utterly dominates academia or corporate America. Printing was a nightmare. Moving documents to my PC required iTunes syncing. .. iTunes..?? The music store software? What kind of "computer" was this!? My dream of a sleek, cool Sci-Fi space man computer was dashed as I realize the iPad is little more than a toy for reading Facebook on the toilet and clumbsily tapping in replies to emails from your sofa at a blistering 15 words per minute.

A sleek tablet with integrated, nearly full-size keyboard/cover and full, actual Microsoft Office built in?? A solid, well-engineered stand that folds out of the tablet to support it without needing to buy a pile of 3rd party cases, folios, etc. ? Be still my heart.

Touch is awesome. Touch is great for web surfing and watching cat videos on YouTube. Touch, paired with NO keyboard or keyboard and a very lightweight word processing app was absolutely useless. The keyboard is an order of magnitude more efficient for actually doing WORK.

The Surface tablet brings us so much closer to the dream of the all-in-one small, lightweight portable computer. I have hated Micro$oft as much as any other linux-using, Android using Slashdot reader. But I am cheering for them on this one. I hope the Surface takes it to Apple, and takes it to them hard.

Competition is good.

Re:We All Win

[bravecanadian]

I'm with you on this one.

I won't be buying a Surface until I see if it fulfills some of its promise, but if it does, I will be all over it.

I don't want to have a laptop/desktop and a tablet. I am trying to simplify the number of devices I am trying to maintain and synchronize and even if I need to use a dock of some sort for a bigger screen etc at work - I like what the Surface Pro potentially offers.

Being able to do actual work on it when need be, take advantage of existing applications, and then switch to tablet mode when I want to sit and read an ebook/watch a video/surf the web on the couch is a great setup.

I think it will be difficult for them to pull off but I am hoping they can do it.

Re:We All Win

[swillden]

With the exception of MS Office, I think the Asus Transformer series has exactly what you're looking for.

Re:We All Win

[Anonymous Coward]

Competition is only good for the consumer when the competing companies play fairly on the fields of innovation and value. Microsoft doesn't have a good track record for doing that.

In fact, quite the opposite. And, if not for non-MS companies making the PC hardware at dirt-cheap margins, they would have lost there too.

Re:We All Win

[FlynnMP3]

Back when the iPad was first released, I couldn't believe anybody would want to own one, let alone find a use for it. Turned out my geek sense was horribly wrong and SJ managed to create a new market. There is a huge swath of people that only want a computing device to only do 3 or 4 things. That's what the iPad does and it does it well. Apple is famous for getting the little details right. I'd say the videos that I've seen of grandmas and grandpas using it without any instruction is a pure win.

Microsoft is betting there is another emerging market out there. I saw the keynote where Ballmer, etc. demonstrated the Surface. If they truly have their act together and have put some serious attention on the "little details"and integrated in their office products into the a functional and smart device that is enterprise friendly, then they could very well have a winner here. The bet is since Apple is not very enterprise friendly, businesses will purchase these by the quarterly budget load once it has been verified that it can do a good job for business type folks. I wish them well. Competition is good and all that.

Personally, I won't be using one, but then I am not their target demographic - in my opinion. I am the DIY computer geek. I'll always own my own full fledged computer with all its unfettered glory so I can do all the stuff that I do on a daily basis because I enjoy doing programmery and integration type stuff.

Re:We All Win

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with the transformer is that it doesn't actually transform. In tablet mode, it's a tablet as expected. In laptop mode, it's a half assed laptop with apps designed for touch, and unreliable, inconsistent keyboard and mouse support.

With Surface, especially the x86 version, it's a full tablet in tablet mode and a full desktop when docked or set up on the table.

Re:We All Win

[lexman098]

Are laptops that bad for watching cat videos? You can get a lightweight and relatively high-powered laptop that guarantees your ability to do everything. Also, propping up the screen comes free.

Re:We All Win

[Suddenly_Dead]

That's a pretty big exception. Have you ever tried to use the available office suites for Android? No comparison whatsoever with MS Office.

An Android tablet just wouldn't be my first choice for work. Transferring files to a computer and back? There are GUI file browsers that do that, but they're all pretty clunky (and though I haven't tried it, I assume even clunkier with keyboard/mouse). Printing isn't straight-forward. Coding? Hah. And keyboard/mouse support within apps is all over the map. I can get work done if I connect to my PC with my tablet using an RDP app or something, but then I'm not really doing the work on the tablet itself, and that's obviously only available if I have a decent Internet connection available.

If Windows 8/the Surface can deliver, it would essentially act like an Ultrabook (light and with good battery life, but completely capable as a low-spec laptop) when you need it to, and a tablet (light, high battery-life, touchscreen, instant-on gratification, etc.) when you need it to do that. The Transformer promises to do that, but nice hardware is nothing without the software to back it up.

Re:We All Win

[caywen]

I've been using W8RP on an Acer W500. This unit is thick, slow, with an outdated touch panel that leads to various quirks doing gestures.

And yet, I've found even this substandard tablet is transformed into something quite usable with Win8. Once I became accustomed to Win8's general flow, I've been a happy camper. The swipe-ins became second nature, and browsing has been mostly a joy. And plugging it into my 24" monitor via HDMI? Works great, and things like Blender, Gimp, and Handbrake all work. Strangely enough, I even run iTunes on it.

And more than once I needed to plug in peripherals. My DVD burner, my Fujitsu ScanSnap, my Samsung printer, my camera, all work great. No cloudy stuff needed.

Again, this is with substandard hardware. When Surface Pro arrives, I'll be first in line to get one.

Re:We All Win

[swillden]

That's a pretty big exception

I suppose. Not having used MS Office since about 2002, it doesn't affect me much :-)

Currently, I do all of my office suite work with Google Docs, and it works very well (of course, I work for Google, so I don't have to exchange MS Office files with others).

Transferring files to a computer and back?

Google Drive. All your files in all your devices, all the time. Works really well (other than I'm anxiously awaiting a Linux client). Or you could use Dropbox or similar -- which has a Linux client, actually.

Printing isn't straight-forward.

Google Cloud Print makes it very straightforward, and enables printing to printers physically far away if you want (I do that from time to time, printing stuff at home while I'm at work, etc. A few weeks ago, I even printed a document for my mom, who lives in another state, on her printer).

Coding

I wouldn't want to try that on any tablet. It'd be like programming through a porthole.

Re:We All Win

[Suddenly_Dead]

Currently, I do all of my office suite work with Google Docs, and it works very well (of course, I work for Google, so I don't have to exchange MS Office files with others).

I use LibreOffice and I don't normally have to exchange MS Office files with others either. That doesn't mean I think Google Docs on Android is an Office replacement. It's not equivalent feature-wise, and last time I used the Android app it was even more limited, slow, and clunky than the web app. I do use Google Docs for some collaborative documents, I don't think it's useless, but it's not MS Office.

Google Drive. All your files in all your devices, all the time. Works really well (other than I'm anxiously awaiting a Linux client). Or you could use Dropbox or similar -- which has a Linux client, actually.

That's nice, but I wasn't really talking about cloud solutions. Sometimes, you know, I don't want to use the cloud, or put my files on the cloud. Maybe I just want to directly transfer a file. Maybe I want to transfer a file that I didn't know I'd want to transfer and didn't stick in my cloud-synced folder. Google Drive is fine on my tablet, but then I don't use my tablet for actual work. I tend to use a combination of Google Drive and SMB on my laptop.

Printing isn't straight-forward.

Google Cloud Print makes it very straightforward, and enables printing to printers physically far away if you want (I do that from time to time, printing stuff at home while I'm at work, etc. A few weeks ago, I even printed a document for my mom, who lives in another state, on her printer).

I haven't played with that extensively, but it looks like integration with Android is still non-existent and relies on third party apps that seem kind of limited. With any of those apps, can I do print previews, enable duplex printing, print from a range, switch between coloured/monochrome, and do all of that quickly, with a large-screen formatted interface (as in, no constant jumping around between screens)? Are any of them FOSS or is there any other reason I should trust them with my documents?

Coding

I wouldn't want to try that on any tablet. It'd be like programming through a porthole.

Yeah, that's why I mentioned it as a potential plus for the Surface. You can program on an Ultrabook if need-be.

Win 8 + Leap= home PC awesomess

[Anonymous Coward]

With the minimal investment for the new Leap Motion, a decent PC attached to the TV in the living room becomes a gesture controlled center that works with your Win8 phone and Xbox nearly seamlessly. Or so my imagination shows me. Consider the E3 Microsoft demos and check out the Leap. The timing is perfect, and I would love to see the potential for performance be completely realized

MS release dates

[uvajed_ekil]

Microsoft is going to release its Surface tablet on the same day Windows 8 goes on general availability, Oct. 26

So of course this means that the Surface *might* be available before Christmas, and should receive enough software patches by Next April to make it fully functional.

surface? windows 8?

[Anonymous Coward]

WHO CARES?

Re:surface? LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

does anyone even believe there is going to be people queuing up to get a surface? not like they did to get an ipad for sure!

course there are those shills who spend their time wanking to ballmer's photo, those will be seen right there, like a damn gay parade.

Re:History (was Re:Isn't there a "late to the game

[spire3661]

OSX doesnt support touch???? Really? http://www.trolltouch.com/index.html

Yes Finnally!

[Anonymous Coward]

Goodbye lamedroid and whateverPad!

Can I install WIndows 8 on my Android tablet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Face palm...

One of the more common questions in the very near future.

Google nexus 7 for me.

[Anonymous Coward]

I couldnt care less about this really. I bought a google nexus 7 recently (my first tablet) and I love it. It was relatively inexpensive, works great and I like the freedom to do what I want on a android device. Besides anything MS or apple can or has done with their tablets I can find an app for nexus 7 that does the same thing atleast as well, if not better.

I dont care about microsofts hardware really. I mean xbox 360 is decent enough but their phones, mice, keyboards and so on have always been crap to me with better options always out there before and after MS releases their version. Even as a software company I dont think much of them anymore.

To me microsoft only continues to be relevant because their brand name that carries weight. If they hadnt gotten so deeply imbedded in computers decades ago they would probablly be out of business now.

Looking forward to Surface

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm really interested in the Surface Pro version. I love the idea of being able to consume and work on the same device. I actually think Metro looks cool (I know lots will disagree). I've enjoyed it on my WP7 and Xbox for a while now. And having an actual USB port will be nice. And HDMI video output. And Office. And IE9. And synchronization with my Windows Phone and Xbox. Oh, and Xbox Live. And speaking of Xbox, being able to work on apps for PC, Tablet, Phone, and Xbox all from the tablet will be nice. And doing it in Visual Studio will be nice. =)

I can't wait!

Surface will sell well

[ninjacut]

If the price is right, Surface will sell extremely well. The interface is better than iPad, and with Office 13, USB adn keyboard it is better fit in enterprises. I wont mind paying higher price than iPad, it has a better utility. Waiting to pre-order it the day it is announced.

I pity the poor saps at Redmond

[Anonymous Coward]

Why might you ask? Well, simply because if rumours are remotely true the release of the Surface will be around a month after the new iPhone. Given the likely interest in that, why would anyone care if you have clumps of micro-smurfs bouncing up and down saying "Buy a Surface!"

Re:I pity the poor saps at Redmond

[lpq]

Someone who doesn't own an iphone and has serious ethical considerations against apple and has had since ~ 1980?

Apple is more evil than MS... much more so...
MS was just greedy like every other American...Apple...
Would do well in a totalitarian regime.

What I want to know is...

[WingCmdr]

how many fans will this thing have?

Re:surface? LOL

[tehcyder]

does anyone even believe there is going to be people queuing up to get a surface? not like they did to get an ipad for sure!

course there are those shills who spend their time wanking to ballmer's photo, those will be seen right there, like a damn gay parade.

Talk about people in glass houses not throwing stones...

An Apple fanboy using being gay and a member of a personality cult as an insult? Priceless.