Slashdot Mirror


Apple Comes Clean, Admits To Doing Market Research

colinneagle writes "In an interview with Fortune a few years ago, Steve Jobs explained that Apple never does market research. Rather, they simply preoccupy themselves with creating great products. On Monday, Apple's Greg Joswiak — the company's VP of Product Marketing — submitted a declaration to the Court explaining why documents relating to Apple's market research and strategy should be sealed. Every month, Apple surveys iPhone buyers and Joswiak explains what Apple is able to glean from these surveys. And as you might expect, Apple conducts similar surveys with iPad buyers. Apple wants all of these tracking studies sealed. Joswiak explains that if a competitor were to find out what drives iPhone purchases — whether it be FaceTime, battery life, or Siri — it would serve as an unfair competitive edge to rival companies. Further, competitors, as it stands today, have to guess as to which demographics are most satisfied with Apple products." A few other interesting facts have come out of the trial so far; Apple spent $647 million advertising the iPhone in the U.S. from its launch through fiscal 2011, and they spent $457.2 million advertising the iPad from its launch up to the same point.

39 of 221 comments (clear)

  1. They've turned their backs on Steve by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Obviously, since he died, this new generation of Apple leaders have lost their way. They need to turn back to Steve before it's too late and realize that only through him can they find the correct path. And that path is not through market research, it's through listening to Steve's own words and letting them into your heart.

    1. Re:They've turned their backs on Steve by AngryDeuce · · Score: 3, Funny

      How long before baptisms and communion services are offered at the Genius Bar?

    2. Re:They've turned their backs on Steve by dadioflex · · Score: 5, Informative

      Um, Tim Cook isn't that keen on patent lawsuits and most of the ones currently making headlines started under Steve Jobs and his total thermonuclear war on Android.

    3. Re:They've turned their backs on Steve by jones_supa · · Score: 2

      It's interesting to see where the company will end up in the hands of Tim Cook. For now Apple can just make "more of the same" but that trick can't work forever.

    4. Re:They've turned their backs on Steve by meerling · · Score: 3, Funny

      Hey, at least circumcisions weren't on that list.
      Wait, does that mean they already do that?

    5. Re:They've turned their backs on Steve by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The whole Steve Jobs is a genius god-child things was definitely part of an Apple marketing push. Go back and read the mainstream press coverage of things like the iPod or the lampshade iMac, and they make it sound like the designs appeared to Jobs like a vision while he was meditating in nature. But, as the Samsung trial materials show, Apple actually does a shit load of design iteration.

      There's been rumors for years that Apple does extremely detailed market research and very much understands their 'psychographics'. However the fanboys have been in complete denial because they want to believe it's all about the product and there's no highly sophisticated marketing operation targeting them. (PS the products are pretty fucking good too.)

    6. Re:They've turned their backs on Steve by cpu6502 · · Score: 2

      Yes. People forget that Jobs has not been "missing" for long, and that what Apple is doing now originated during Jobs' tenure. We are witnessing his own decisions being processed.

      It's similar to how a new president still operates under the old president's fiscal budget for several months (through October).

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    7. Re:They've turned their backs on Steve by arth1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Steve fought Android by making a better product.

      When is it going to be released?

    8. Re:They've turned their backs on Steve by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Yeah that is the first thing I check when shopping for new hardware, which one gets had the most profit into the pockets of the manufacturer.

    9. Re:They've turned their backs on Steve by jkrise · · Score: 2

      listening to Steve's own words and letting them into your heart

      Yeah, the idiotic bit about going thermo-nuclear against Android for copying a rounded rectangle.

      --
      If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
    10. Re:They've turned their backs on Steve by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Um, Tim Cook isn't that keen on patent lawsuits and most of the ones currently making headlines started under Steve Jobs and his total thermonuclear war on Android.

      He could stop them at any time.

      No, seriously, he could stop them at any time. If he really wasn't so keen on patent lawsuits, he could man up and have the balls to say that Jobs was a psychopath whose obsessions would have eventually destroyed the company if he were still alive, change course, and not make a laughingstock of Apple. He has the power in the company to do just that.

      But he doesn't do it. And he won't do it. And he's the one making the decision not to do it. Not Jobs; Jobs is dead. Cook is the one ordering the lawyers to go ahead with all the lawsuits.

      Like it or not, this is the post-Jobs era at Apple. Specifically, this is the Tim Cook era at Apple. Period.

    11. Re:They've turned their backs on Steve by icebike · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yeah that is the first thing I check when shopping for new hardware, which one gets had the most profit into the pockets of the manufacturer.

      Exactly.

      Why are Apple customers so proud of the fact that they overpay for their products?

      Would we all see cheaper cell service if carriers pockets weren't being emptied into Apple's coffers? How about iPhone users start giving back to the their fellow citizens by switching to Android, instead of inflicting the cost of these overpriced device on the rest of the cell phone users. Every iPhone sold is a money out of my pocket, by way of higher carrier bills.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    12. Re:They've turned their backs on Steve by TheRaven64 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Apple had the same advantage that Palm had before them: someone willing to say 'no, this sucks' and be listened to. There's a story about the first iteration of the Palm Pilot, where the CEO saw it and decided it was too big. He got a block of balsa wood cut that was just small enough to fit in his shirt pocket and gave it to the product development team with an edict that the final version must be no bigger than that. Without someone like that, they'd have ended up with something too big to be conveniently carried. Steve Jobs had the same role at Apple: it wasn't producing great products, or products that could not be improved, it was to produce products that were definitely useful. As long as 'how Steve Jobs would use it' and 'how a normal human would use it' weren't too far apart, it worked well. Sometimes, it didn't - there were a few flops along the way - but a product designed for a specific user is far more likely to be useable in general than one designed for some set of focus-group set of requirements plus any features that engineers thought they could sneak in.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    13. Re:They've turned their backs on Steve by icebike · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Exactly.

      My last block of Apple stock is going to be sold in the run up to the iPhone 5 release. I will be out of that issue prior to the actual announcement. Its been a good run, more than doubled my investment in a couple years, but now its time to go, ahead of the disappointment sure to arrive when iPhone 5 is nothing but an incremental improvement.

      Buy the rumor. Sell the news.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    14. Re:They've turned their backs on Steve by arbiter1 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Um in the round 1 of Apple minus Steve === Apple was on verge of bankruptcy. He was very important to Apple (No i aint no apple fanboy, i hate apple with a pashion). And Apple without Steve leading Apple looking at a very possible bankruptcy again in the future at some point cause i doubt they will be able to innovate like they did with Steve around, example of their failure to innovate == them suing their major competitors for everything possible the last 2 years.

    15. Re:They've turned their backs on Steve by PaladinAlpha · · Score: 2

      Like most stats of this kind, these numbers are from an ad network -- i.e. they're measuring ad views on their network by device. This shows that their ads are displayed more often on Apple products, not "actual usage". Different ad networks are more popular on Android; that's all.

    16. Re:They've turned their backs on Steve by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      [...]As long as 'how Steve Jobs would use it' and 'how a normal human would use it' weren't too far apart[...]

      Which worked perfectly fine until normal people started holding it wrong...

    17. Re:They've turned their backs on Steve by mwvdlee · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But that's OK, Steve is dead and the hapless harping hypocrites will continue their attacks and telling themselves how gloriously wonderful and clever they are for using some other product (Windows, Linux, Droids) even if it's substandard or blatantly imitative.

      Instead, here you are telling yourself how gloriously wonderful and clever you are for buying Apple products, blissfully unaware of the irony.

      --
      Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
    18. Re:They've turned their backs on Steve by TheSeatOfMyPants · · Score: 2

      PC users don't buy a high-priced computer incompatible with their current software just because the next version of Windows sucks, we either stick with the current version of Windows or migrate to Linux (as I did). People that buy an Apple product would have already been planning to do so, and at most might use this as an excuse to go through with it.

      --
      Now mostly at Usenet:comp.misc & SoylentNews.org (it's made of people!)
    19. Re:They've turned their backs on Steve by sessamoid · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Exactly my plan, because when the detailed specs are ANNOUNCED the rumor becomes news. I suspect it will be a marginal improvement at best.

      The 4S was a marginal improvement. It sold more than all previous generations of iPhones combined.

      --
      "No, no, no. Don't tug on that. You never know what it might be attached to."
    20. Re:They've turned their backs on Steve by mjwx · · Score: 2

      Um, Tim Cook isn't that keen on patent lawsuits and most of the ones currently making headlines started under Steve Jobs and his total thermonuclear war on Android.

      I'd very much like to beleive that but...

      If Mr Cook really feels this way, why hasn't he bought Samsung to the table. Same with Motorola, why are they still pursing product bans? He's had months to stop this yet he hasn't.

      What Cook is saying and what Cook is doing are two different things entirely.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    21. Re:They've turned their backs on Steve by Falconhell · · Score: 2

      Yeh I bought one, but it is very disappointing, very poor battery life and tied to the horrible itunes, as soon as the contract expires its Samsung for me,

  2. Hint: by Anne_Nonymous · · Score: 5, Funny

    >> Joswiak explains that if a competitor were to find out what drives iPhone purchases â" whether it be FaceTime, battery life, or Siri â" it would serve as an unfair competitive edge

    Hint: It's that patented rectangular shape.

    1. Re:Hint: by Alumoi · · Score: 2

      Hint: well built gadget aimed at metrosexuals

  3. The Article is Wrong by wzinc · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Obviously, Steve meant market research for future products. The article describes a survey of existing customers, and I've gotten them before. While this plays a part in product development, they don't use focus groups. It's one of those things where, if Apple asked outside people (not customers), "what do you want in a phone," they'd end-up with a terrible product. Instead, they make the phone they, themselves want to use. As they've stated in their conference calls, they only enter markets where they think they can improve things. One example is student information systems. They sold PowerSchool to Pierson, exiting that market because they felt they couldn't do a killer product there. It's so obvious how they work; the only mystery is what future products will be. They keep those under wraps because, if they decide to scrap it or change it dramatically, there won't be a Microsoft-CES-announcement-style embarrassment. As the Samsung court documents show, they have hundreds of iterations of products that never see the light of day.

    1. Re:The Article is Wrong by wzinc · · Score: 4, Informative

      Nope, I listen to the quarterly conference calls.

    2. Re:The Article is Wrong by Chuckstar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Steve had made similar comments in other forums. He seemed to be a big believer that people don't know what they want until you show it to them. If you did a market survey before the iPad came out, and asked people what they wanted in a tablet computer, very few would have articulated something that looked/operated similar to an iPad. Even after it was announced many people scoffed. But it's been a huge success.

      While he sometimes said things that were not entirely clear, Steve's philosophy never seemed to be "don't ask the customer what they like or don't like about existing products". Especially knowing what they don't like is important. That's where the opportunities are. The trick is, in Steve's mind, that the customer is not the appropriate person to ask HOW to fix it. The great designers at Apple will come up with a fix. And if they do the job right, it will be something the customer would never have thought of, but will love.

  4. Re:Big surprise... by MachDelta · · Score: 2

    Yeah but they don't do it quite as much, on average.

  5. Here's the secret by dosius · · Score: 2, Insightful

    And it's as anticlimactic as the cough syrup in Flaming Moes... they buy it because it has an Apple logo on it. The logo itself is a status symbol.

    -uso.

    --
    What you hear in the ear, preach from the rooftop Matthew 10.27b
    1. Re:Here's the secret by surgen · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The logo itself is a status symbol.

      I used to think this was just an insult to apple buyers. Then the iPhone 4s came out. I'll never forget the first words that came out of my apple buying friend's mouth after seeing the design. "How will anyone be able to tell I have the new one?"

  6. Joswiak? by Kyogreex · · Score: 2

    Joswiak? Sounds like Jobs + Wozniak.

  7. "Market research" is many things by obarthelemy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Using it as Apple is saying here, to survey users, is one thing. It helps gather info on actual uses, usage patterns, customer feedback.

    Using it to design a product or to test a product design, is quite another, especially if, like often, it ends up justifying half-baked committee-think. Apple forte has been Steve Job's "I'm the customer, please me" stance, which is far superior to the "Make none of us dislike it too much" design-by committee version. It requires strong leadership. Apple had that, and storng value too: sexiness and easse of use.

    As an Android user, I wish, I wish Google did more user surveys. There are a handful of very easy changes that would make Android rock, observably so, including in the shop right next to an iPad.

    --
    The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
  8. False dichotomy by harperska · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think that the summary misses a major point. Sure there was a bit of hyperbole when Steve said that Apple never did market research. But every word that came out of that man's mouth was hyperbole. What I think Steve's point was is that Apple doesn't base their product categories on market research. They just use market research for refining products once the categories are established. They didn't base the idea to have an all-touchscreen smartphone, a high capacity hard-drive based mp3 player, or a GUI centric PC on market research. If they did, they would have found out that people were perfectly happy with their blackberry and symbian keyboard smartphones, their low capacity flash mp3 players, and their DOS based IBM PCs.

    1. Re:False dichotomy by Asic+Eng · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Apple is remarkable good at retroactively inventing things. Like hard-drive based mp3 players, the idea for which was stolen from them e.g. in 1998 by Compaq (4.8 GB), in 2000 by Creative (Nomad, 6 GB) and in the same year by Archos (6 GB). Then Apple re-invented the entire market by bringing out a player with ... 5 GB in 2001. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_media_player

      It's understandable that so many people believe Apple came up with the idea, considering the advertising budget. Many probably didn't even realize that mp3 players existed before Apple told them about it.

    2. Re:False dichotomy by Chuckstar · · Score: 2

      The poster above may think that Apple came up with the hard-drive based mp3 player, but I do not think it is a widely adopted meme. Most people I know accept that the iPod was just a really well-designed and implemented mp3 player. Much like everyone I know understands that Apple didn't invent the smartphone. In fact, almost everyone I know had a Blackberry at some time before the iPhone came out, or was at least familiar with what a Blackberry was before the iPhone came out. But the iPhone kicks ass over the Blackberry. Apple may have only invented a better smartphone... but OMG it was WAY better.

      (Was way better than the smartphones available at the time. Android has certainly closed the gap, and Blackberries are actually almost on par these days.)

    3. Re:False dichotomy by harperska · · Score: 2

      I think it is well established and not denied by even the most rabid iFanboy that Apple doesn't doesn't come up with product concepts out of the blue. Yes, HD based mp3 players existed before the iPod. The GUI was invented by Xerox. And tablet computers existed for years before the iPad. But for some reason, none of these products sold at all statistically speaking. And I think it annoys the alpha nerds that Apple has time and time again been able to take these nascent technologies and somehow reinvent them so that ordinary people actually want them where they saw no need for them before. And so the nerds trot out the old fallacy that because Apple didn't actually invent any of these categories they must somehow be conning the populous into buying these products, begging the question that Apple's products are inherently completely identical to other products in the same category by nature of being in the same category. But logic dictates that a first gen iPod must somehow be fundamentally different from a Nomad despite them both being hard drive based mp3 players. Marketing can only go so far. If it was truly just marketing, then people would realize they were sold a load of crap. But iProducts also come at the top of consumer satisfaction surveys, which would be very difficult for even the best marketing company ever to pull off.

      All that aside, I think the point still stands. If Apple used market research, focus groups, etc. to decide which product categories they would pursue, they never would have released a GUI PC, a hard disk mp3 player, a touchscreen smartphone, or a tablet computer. Because when Apple released each of those products, the marketplace had already 'decided' that they had no interest in such things. Apple had to figure out what each of those things needed for the marketplace to actually want it, which obviously you can't do with a focus group.

  9. Yep by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 2

    There's a great picture along those lines: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2124177/internet-memes-he-was-the-first.jpg.

    For those that don't wish to look at it it has Bill Gates introducing the tablet PC in 2002 and says "no one cares", in 2010 Apple introduces the iPad and "the world pisses itself like and excited dog." In 2012 MS rolls out the surface and "People claim they stole the idea from Apple." The final frame is a picture of Patrick Stewart in ST:TNG holding a PADD with the caption "Bitches, please."

    Apple is rarely first on something, they rarely invent something. Nothing wrong with that, it is true of most companies. They just want to sell it like they are.

    What Apple really does is sell fashion. The iPod wasn't amazingly successful because it was an MP3 player, it was amazingly successful because it was a fashion accessory. To own one was to be cool, and thus everyone wanted to own one. Suddenly the style for earbuds was bright white (something Shure, Etymotic, etc had never had demand for before) with the cable hanging down the front of your shirt to proclaim ownership to all (just like in the commercials).

    Apple makes products people want as status symbols, as fashion, regardless of need for them. That is a great market if you can get it because not only is it big, but fashion is very price insensitive, indeed higher prices can be better. Consumer electronics is extremely price sensitive and charging a premium is hard. However in fashion, no problem.

    Part of that image is convincing people they were the first in the world to ever do something and that because of that it is really cool.

  10. How We Know The Article is Wrong by tgibbs · · Score: 2

    Are you his spokesperson? How do you know what he meant?

    By having the sense to look up what he actually said, instead of relying on media soundbites. Here's what he told Business Week in 1988:

    Q: Did you do consumer research on the iMac when you were developing it?
    A: No. We have a lot of customers, and we have a lot of research into our installed base. We also watch industry trends pretty carefully. But in the end, for something this complicated, it's really hard to design products by focus groups. A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them. That's why a lot of people at Apple get paid a lot of money, because they're supposed to be on top of these things.

    So now we're seeing breathless media reports saying "Apple does research into their installed base, proving that Jobs was lying when he said that Apple did not do this!!!" Except of course that Jobs specifically said that Apple did do that. If you look at the context of Jobs' statements about Apple not doing market research, you'll see that all of them are in the context of how Apple designs new products, as opposed to how they improve existing ones.

  11. If they don't want to reveal stuff in court by kiddygrinder · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If they don't want to reveal stuff in court, maybe they should stop suing everyone

    --
    This is a joke. I am joking. Joke joke joke.