Slashdot Mirror


Improving Uranium Extraction From Seawater, Inspired by Shrimp

New submitter Celarent Darii writes "Prospects for harvesting Uranium from seawater turned interesting by using shrimp shells as a sort of catalyst." Researchers at ORNL presented their findings from a test of a chitin net for harvesting Uranium at the ACS fall meeting. From the ORNL press release: "In a direct comparison to the current state-of-the-art adsorbent, HiCap provides significantly higher uranium adsorption capacity, faster uptake and higher selectivity, according to test results. Specifically, HiCap's adsorption capacity is seven times higher (146 vs. 22 grams of uranium per kilogram of adsorbent) in spiked solutions containing 6 parts per million of uranium at 20 degrees Celsius. In seawater, HiCap's adsorption capacity of 3.94 grams of uranium per kilogram of adsorbent was more than five times higher than the world's best at 0.74 grams of uranium per kilogram of adsorbent. The numbers for selectivity showed HiCap to be seven times higher."

122 comments

  1. If shrimp purchases indicate proliferation by Ukab+the+Great · · Score: 3, Funny

    Then Vegas is acquiring it's own nuclear arsenal.

    1. Re:If shrimp purchases indicate proliferation by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2

      Looks at pile of shrimp.

      Gets Geiger Counter.

      Really, who knew these little things were so dangerous?

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    2. Re:If shrimp purchases indicate proliferation by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      It's all part of Mr. House's master plan for the coming apocalypse.

    3. Re:If shrimp purchases indicate proliferation by cayenne8 · · Score: 2
      Hmm..that explains it, it IS a hidden agenda conspiracy!!!

      It appears the giant Tiger Shrimp, from the orient...is invading the gulf coast of the US...the much larger variety could endanger the native, smaller (and very tasty) gulf shrimps.

      So, I get it...the govt is trying to introduce these larger shrimp, to use their larger and more plentiful shells to get more Uranium!?!?!?

      Energy at the expense of our seafood!!!

      :)

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    4. Re:If shrimp purchases indicate proliferation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      New Vegas, here I come!

    5. Re:If shrimp purchases indicate proliferation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There have been many misleading articles here lately. PU238 instead of 230? What kind of junk science was that? Deliberate noise to bury truth? It could be tiime to do away with submissions from new users and put stories from new submitters through better screening? (hoping this site wasn't bought by MS and the nuclear industry)

      What;s discussed in this one is suitable for water purification, not for providing fuel. Material in shrimp doesn't tell you where it came from unless a footprint is formed with other measurable compounds.
      An alpha detecting counter will read from most sunflower seeds, but it doesn't tell you if the cesium the plant leached from the soil got there from cold-war atmospheric testing, Fukushima, Chernobyl, the accident covered up in 1981, or something else.

    6. Re:If shrimp purchases indicate proliferation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      An alpha detecting counter will read from most sunflower seeds, but it doesn't tell you if the cesium the plant leached from the soil got there from cold-war atmospheric testing, Fukushima, Chernobyl, the accident covered up in 1981, or something else.

      That is why when doing such work you don't just use a counter, you use some kind of energy spectrometer. From this you can get the type and energy of the radiation, which pretty quickly identifies most isotopes. Isotopic composition quickly narrows down possible sources.

      (By the way, an alpha counter won't tell you about cesium in plants... as no cesium isotopes that last longer than a few seconds emit alpha particles. Most cesium decays involve positive or negative beta decay, with negative beta decays for the typically proton deficient nuclei produced by fission byproducts.)

    7. Re:If shrimp purchases indicate proliferation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Used to be tastier. Now the gulf shrimps taste like spilled BP crude.

    8. Re:If shrimp purchases indicate proliferation by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      Used to be tastier. Now the gulf shrimps taste like spilled BP crude.

      Nah..not at all. Gulf seafood is perfectly fine and tastes great. Hell, it is the single MOST tested food pretty much ever since the spill.

      On the other hand...I used to joke right after the spill, that it would be kinda cool to be able to throw some shrimp on in the skillet to saute without having to oil the pan first...self-lubricating shrimp.

      :)

      But seriously, the Gulf seafood is just fine and has been for a LONG time. Hell, I can't wait for oyster season!!!

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
  2. But...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    ...there's tonnes of Uranium around! You mine it easily - it's not so rare that you need to go looking in seawater.

    Now if the shells selectively captured the Uranium-235 isotope, that WOULD be useful....

    1. Re:But...? by drwho · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes, there is lots of uranium around. But it's locked up in mines, in places such as Niger which are unstable. Japan investigated this seawater uranium source because it wanted a stable source of uranium - one that would not depend on vagaries of geology, mining, and international politics. Because seawater contains approximately the same amount of uranium throughout the world, there is no need to get the uranium - they would let the uranium come to them, via ocean currents. Its a viable idea, even before this newest chitin invention. From what I remember, the cost of ocean uranium recovery was only twice what the market price of uranium was when the Japanese documented this method, and they were confident they could make incremental progress on lowering the cost. I would assume that all of the Japanese research has been cancelled in light of the post-Fukushima madness.

    2. Re:But...? by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 2

      Yeah, but the potential of extraction from seawater is mind boggling. The Japanese have been working on this for a long time, and they estimate the uranium content of the main current off their coast carries by more uranium in a year than the total known reserves left in the ground. I just hope the Fukishima disaster doesn't put a damper on the basic research they are doing.

    3. Re:But...? by Talderas · · Score: 1

      "Japanese Miracle"?

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    4. Re:But...? by Kaenneth · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I would guess research into filtering out radioactive elements would only increase...

    5. Re:But...? by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 1

      What's the realistic potential of the amount we could get?

      Could it replace the need to mine it for grid scale consumption?

      Is it naturally replenished in the sea water or is it just there like it is in the earth (and taking out eventually depletes the stock)?

      Genuinely curious :)

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    6. Re:But...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uranium is as common a tin and 40 times more common than silver. Coal contains more energy due to uranium impurities than it does due to the chemical energy contained in coal.

      http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev26-34/text/colmain.html

      <sarc>Shit, if uranium is only as common as tin and produces 10 million times the energy on a mass per mass basis as coal, how will we ever be able to solve our energy crisis?</sarc>

    7. Re:But...? by rasmusbr · · Score: 5, Informative

      Wikipedia says there's 3.3 mg uranium per m^3 of seawater and the volume of the world's oceans adds up to 1.3*10^18 m^3, which means that there's 4.4*10^12 kg of uranium in the oceans, or roughly 400 kg per human in a world with 10 billion humans. That's a lot of uranium...

      I don't suppose much is known about the rate at which it replenishes, but I bet scientists will be able to find out about that long before we begin to see measurable depletion of seawater uranium on a global scale.

    8. Re:But...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not at face value since we're talking Ur rather than intermediary products but maybe it could help enable something like the "Japanese Miracle" as the technology and understanding of it matures.

      Remember the "Japanese Miracle" had to be deployed before the radioactive fallout arrived from the WW3 nuclear war in order to have any effect; it's a preventive rather than a reactive measure.

      For those who do not know it the "Japanese Miracle" is an important backdrop to the continuing survival and existence of Japan as a sovereign nation in the 2030ies in GitS SAC (can't remember if it was series 1 or 2).

    9. Re:But...? by WaywardGeek · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure if I'm happy or sad at the prospect of obtaining lot's more uranium. The world has yet to demonstrate that commercial nuclear plants make any financial sense, and then there's the incredibly stupid waste storage system we have in the US (have each plant simply hang onto it). I'm more concerned over the prospect of a fire in those storage polls than a meltdown in a core.

      Molten salt reactors seem promising, and there's little debate that they would be cheaper. There are other challenges, but cost seems to be a clear benefit. Also, with continuous fuel reprocessing, the waste is a tiny fraction of what we generate in a traditional light water reactor, and we could even use waste from our existing reactors as fuel for molten salt reactors, eventually burning up most of it. We could even burn Thorium, which should last a very long time. All this needs major investments in R&D. A driving factor behind such investments will be running out of cheap enriched uranium. If we succeed in obtaining uranium from the sea cheaply, we will most likely continue down our incredibly stupid path until someone does have their nuclear waste catch fire and go Chernobyl on us.

      --
      Celebrate failure, and then learn from it - Nolan Bushnell
    10. Re:But...? by Chirs · · Score: 2

      Yes, there is lots of uranium around. But it's locked up in mines, in places such as Niger which are unstable.

      I suppose you consider Saskatchewan, Canada to be "unstable"?

    11. Re:But...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      more fuel is always good. I think you're buying into the LFTR hype a bit much. Not all uranium reactors are built in the '70s, and it's possible to have a uranium reactor that burns all the fuels (the current ones don't because fuel is so cheap, and they were originally designed with the possibility of making plutonium for bombs).

    12. Re:But...? by dasunt · · Score: 5, Informative

      I don't suppose much is known about the rate at which it replenishes, but I bet scientists will be able to find out about that long before we begin to see measurable depletion of seawater uranium on a global scale.

      However, rivers bring more uranium into the sea all the time, in fact 3.2x10^4 tonne per year.

      - Source

    13. Re:But...? by manicb · · Score: 1

      The world has yet to demonstrate that commercial nuclear plants make any financial sense

      Is that compared to the energy taken to commission/decommission, or is that compared with the low cost of fossil fuels which don't have to pay for the destruction they will unleash? Current consensus seems to be that it's likely climate change will wreck us before the oil runs out, so relying on current economics is not a very helpful way of decision-making.

    14. Re:But...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would assume that all of the Japanese research has been cancelled in light of the post-Fukushima madness.

      I don't see why. After all, they've just added substantially to the amount of Uranium in the local waters, the higher concentration should make it that much easier to make filtering it back out commercially viable.

      (rdg)

    15. Re:But...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "We could even burn Thorium, which should last a very long time."

      Understatement of the year since we have enough known reserves to run all the Earth's current energy needs for about 3 billion years.

    16. Re:But...? by Hillgiant · · Score: 1

      Like oil, it isn't how much is there. Rather it is how much energy we have to exert to extract it.

      --
      -
    17. Re:But...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      'Locked up' in mines? That's where its 'concentrated'! That makes it easy to get to.

      There are Uranium deposits all round the world, and Nigeria, for example, is not an unstable country. There's quite a lot in Australia. This is an interesting chemical technique, but wake me up when they start pulling out REAL rare materials, like gold, in reasonable quantities.

      Mining is still the way to go for obtaining minerals.

    18. Re:But...? by HiThere · · Score: 1

      It's more complicated than that. A reliable supply that you don't need to fight for is worth a lot.

      OTOH, IIUC extraction of Uranium from sea water is only marginally economically feasible. This could be improved in several ways. One way is by designing better reactors. Fast neutron reactors are frequently mentioned here, as they have the potential to burn their fuel down to safe essentially non-radioactive. But they are a trifle dangerous, as along the way they produce fuel that is quite radioactive. Still, if they live up to their promise, they might make seawater extraction viable even with current technology. Any improvements in extraction technology would, of course, only improve the economics.

      OTOH, solar cells are getting cheaper faster than nuclear reactors are. And they don't come with the same associated dangers. They need improved ways to store the output for times when it's dark and you need energy. Current methods are bulky, expensive, or both. Still, these methods are used in some wind-farm systems, so they could be used by solar cells, too. But they all require either a centralized distribution system, or they add considerable overhead. (Batteries to back up the solar cells on my rooftop would have doubled the cost of they system. As they don't produce quite enough to satisfy our needs, that would have been foolish. I'd have needed a system twice the size of the current system to have enough excess capacity, and if you add in batteries that means the price has quadrupled.)

      FWIW, I don't really like nuclear reactors. They aren't safe enough, and they aren't properly regulated ANYWHERE. Only wealthy corporations can afford to buy them, and they always seem to have enough political influence to avoid annoying safety regulations without significant penalty. Mind you this criticism only applies to the operational systems. The designs have different problems (of a related nature). The contractors who build them like expensive systems, but they don't like design changes. And they have also captured their regulators. This tends to result in obsolete systems being built with some safety measures ridiculously over-designed, and other crucial ones nearly ignored.

      N.B.: I'm not an expert in the area, but I've listened to a few people who were. Don't ask me for specifics, ask an expert. I'd give you at best a half answer, and on some points I might have totally misunderstood what was meant. But the criticisms of the process appear to me quite solid.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    19. Re:But...? by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Depends on how much they've been drinking. Same as the rest of Canada.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    20. Re:But...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Japanese Miracle does not refer to some TV show, and it wasn't a reference to WWIII. It was about real life and a reference to post WWII.

      Some times shows reference real things in a not so real way. Get your head out of the sand!

    21. Re:But...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_post-war_economic_miracle

    22. Re:But...? by dbIII · · Score: 1

      There hasn't been much research on the subject so there probably wasn't any ongoing in Japan to cancel.

    23. Re:But...? by mug+funky · · Score: 1

      i was about to mention the many mines in Australia (including the largest in the world), but what you say applies equally here.

    24. Re:But...? by mug+funky · · Score: 1

      but what would they do with the filtered water? think of the people with crustacean allergies!

    25. Re:But...? by Sique · · Score: 1

      Hm... The next Uranium mine from my birthplace was about 10 mls, the next one still in operation is about 30 mls. And I grew up in a region which hasn't seen any armed conflicts since World War II. The next Uranium deposit from where I live now is 20 mls, although it doesn't get mined.

      Uranium is plenty, and you can get it nearly everywhere. If there is an old silver mine nearby, you can be pretty sure that you found the next Uranium deposit. The problem is not so much the finding and mining of Uranium, the problem is to get all necessary papers to do so, and to get all the permits and clearances for refining the Uranium.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    26. Re:But...? by Sique · · Score: 1

      If you are really interested in seeing the Uranium mine still in operation, get out any online map with satellite view and look for "Koenigstein/Saechsische Schweiz (Deutschland)", zoom into the map until you can see the Fortress Königstein. About one mile west of the fortress, you see the mine. It might be labelled "Wismut NL Königstein".

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    27. Re:But...? by e70838 · · Score: 2

      Uranium is very bad. It can be used for awful weapons. In order to clean the planet from it in a very efficient way, I suggest to disintegrate it in nuclear plants. Of course it will be only for ecologic purpose.

  3. Uranium by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Unlike oil, uranium will be found in comets, asteroids, planets, and deep within the earth. This applies to thorium as well. Effectively, it is an inexhaustible resource. The deeper you mine, the greater density of rock and the greater likeliness you will find uranium. Once we are able to mine the mantle we will be able to travel to the stars.

    1. Re:Uranium by Sparticus789 · · Score: 1, Interesting

      And when pigs grow wings, they will be able to fly.

      --
      sudo make me a sandwich
    2. Re:Uranium by drwho · · Score: 2

      What the original poster says about the deposits of uranium and thorium are true. However, technology, politics, and economics are blocking its effective use. Mostly politics.

    3. Re:Uranium by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And man will never fly in heavier than air machines. Yeah, yeah, we've heard it all before from your ilk.

      Read up on it. The amount of uranium in the oceans is staggering, and combined with a well thought out chain of nuclear reactor types, where the waste from one can feed the next in line, could solve humanity's energy problem effectively forever.

    4. Re:Uranium by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 1

      solve humanity's energy problem effectively forever.

      Fortunately it gives us LOTS of new problems to deal with. At least we won't be bored. Or need nightlights...

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    5. Re:Uranium by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Well,
      not in comets, not likely in asteroids either, and with uranium alone you can't travel to the stars anyway ...
      The densitiy point is utter nonsense as well.
      Why should the densitiy have anything to do with the minerals bound in it?

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    6. Re:Uranium by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Once we are able to mine the mantle we will be able to travel to the stars.

      Sorry, but there's that pesky relativity getting in the way. It takes light four to ten years to get here from the ten nearest stars, none of which have shown evidence of earthlike planets. I'm afraid it's going to be centuries, or more likely never, that we travel the stars. Sorry, but there's a reason they call it science fiction.

    7. Re:Uranium by HiThere · · Score: 1

      He made sense until he jumped into fueling a starship. Only hydorgen fusion or anti-matter conversion are reasonable fuels for that level of energy need. Unless...

      My personal favorite is a LOW speed LARGE spaceship. Something larger than James Blish's New York, but nowhere near as fast. It can't go fast, because it needs to scavenge interstellar materials as it goes. Small asteroids, comet heads, etc. By not going fast, it reduces it's energy needs considerably. But scavenging materials it picks up needed supplies en-route to where-ever. The purpose is the journey, not the arrival. When it encounters a large mass, say a small planet, it builds a new copy, and the population divides.

      Fission provides enough power for that mode, but you need a *really good* closed ecology. And a better sociology than we've managed so far. (N.B.: This mode will depend on lasers for communication links to other humans, because large as the society I've proposed is, it's probably not large enough to maintain a technological civilization on its own (although AIs might change that requirement).

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    8. Re:Uranium by Hatta · · Score: 1

      It's going to take centuries before we mine the mantle, so that's about right. And relativity is no barrier to generational ships.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    9. Re:Uranium by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Apparently peak uranium is expected to hit in 2035. We're already producing less than we can use. The only inexhaustible energy source is going to be hydrogen fusion.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    10. Re:Uranium by Relic+of+the+Future · · Score: 1

      No, the density of uranium declines as you dig in to the mantle. Uranium tends to collect in the crust. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibility_(geochemistry)

      --
      Those who fail to understand communication protocols, are doomed to repeat them over port 80.
    11. Re:Uranium by dbIII · · Score: 1

      The amount of uranium in rock is even more staggering. The important issue in both cases is how much effort is required to turn it into fuel or whatever other use you have for the uranium. It doesn't come out of the ground or the sea as a pure metal of a useful isotope.
      Many uranium mines also produce copper, silver and gold from the same ore, which makes the mining more commercially viable than if it was nothing other than a low concentration of uranium oxide. Of course there are proven methods to extract gold from seawater as well.

    12. Re:Uranium by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Not the way it's being used and the size of some of the recently discovered shallow deposits, some after 2006 but several before that article was written that I'd say were ignored. While there has to be a peak some day that date sounds very unlikely and I get the impression it's recyling the worry of the 1960s when there were very few known high quality deposits and a projection of almost exponential growth of nuclear power and weapons production, which led to the dead end of plutonium fast breeders to meet that expectation of cheap uranium running out quickly.
      Hitting a peak in 2035 probably requires planning a huge number of reactors now that won't even be using fuel until at least 2022, and I'd also say ignoring any known reserves found after 2000. IMHO it's extremely unlikely so perhaps this is based on the sort of projections that assume 100% of the world's energy production will come from nuclear starting tommorrow.

    13. Re:Uranium by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      And relativity is no barrier to generational ships.

      Radiation is. There is an excellent science fiction novel about a generational ship that covers it well. I wish I could remember the name and author, but it's been a long time since I read it. Part of the plot concerned mutations in people that lived too close to the outer hull.

  4. Chitin by drwho · · Score: 3, Informative

    Chitin is also what makes up the body shells of insects. While these molten salts mentioned may be the best way to extract chitin, it also is soluble in d-limonene, an extract of citrus fruit peels.

    This would be very good news, if people valued it properly. As much as a think the LFTR (which doesn't depend on uranium as a fuel) is a better type of reactor, there are limitations on its fuel source, which is thorium. Thorium is more plentiful, but it is not water soluble, so it doesn't benefit from this type of mining technique.

    1. Re:Chitin by spongman · · Score: 1

      Thorium is more plentiful, but it is not water soluble, so it doesn't benefit from this type of mining technique

      huh?
      you don't need to enslave the population of a 3rd-world country in order to mine Thorium, either. but i don't see that as a negative. the stuff is (almost) everywhere, you don't need to resort to crazy mining/extraction techniques. you can just, you know, dig it up out of the ground.

    2. Re:Chitin by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 1

      I think the problems with thorium lie more in the reactor technologies than in the ability to obtain it...

      Similarly, while this is cool, I would vastly prefer to see work on improved reactor technologies that greatly reduce our need for fresh uranium input into the process.

      Look at the IFR as an example - Most of our existing reactor waste could be used as fuel for these reactors, or at least in "breeder blankets" used to generate more fuel.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    3. Re:Chitin by denis-The-menace · · Score: 1

      Thorium is currently a waste product of mining other elements that are in demand.

      Though you could probably line the walls of your house with it and live just fine, Thorium is a bit radioactive and the Laws kick-in to prevent you from even stock piling the stuff.

      TL;DR: Thorium is not a desirable element in mining. You can't get rid of the stuff. (in the UPS, at least)

      --
      Obama's legacy: (N)othing (S)ecure (A)nywhere and (T)error (S)imulation (A)dministration
  5. Does it pan out? by demonbug · · Score: 1

    How much energy does it take to create these mats, put them in place, harvest, etc. Wouldn't this rather rapidly reduce the local concentration of uranium in seawater, requiring the mats to constantly be moved (or placed in areas with strong currents flushing new supplies through)? Seems like an interesting idea, but at only roughly $50 per pound (for uranium oxide) it really doesn't seem like this would pan out without massively increased demand for uranium. Maybe go after something valuable, like gold or platinum first (although I suppose they may be harder to extract from seawater)?

    1. Re:Does it pan out? by SQL+Error · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's not economically feasible now, but the energy balance works out. Even with the previous method that was only 1/5th as efficient, you got much more energy out of the uranium than was required to collect it.

      Seawater moves around, and the process still isn't that efficient, so you wouldn't have any problems with decreased concentration.

      The reason this is valuable is not so much that it's economical today, as that there's enough uranium in the ocean to provide all our electricity needs for millions of years.

    2. Re:Does it pan out? by drwho · · Score: 1

      no, you would not need to move the collecting apparatus. You would have placed it in an area with sufficient current so that the water would be quickly circulated. It wouldn't be very hard, seawater moves around a real lot.

      In regards to the price, see the other posts I made here regarding price stability being important. Take a look at this historical price chart: http://www.uxc.com/review/uxc_PriceChart.aspx?chart=spot-u3o8-full and you can see that there have been price spikes in the past decade.

      I do not know if the process could be used for platinum and gold extraction. I assume that if it could, then these metals would be receiving the attention and that uranium would be seen as a low priority.

    3. Re:Does it pan out? by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

      Mining uranium from the earth is not energy free, so it is a matter of using the most efficient technique. Or using both techniques and balancing one against the other.

      Also, the seas move due to ocean currents. The same water does not stay in the same place for long.

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    4. Re:Does it pan out? by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      It doesn't sound cost-effective to me, either. But I don't think refreshing the water will be a problem - ocean currents are very swift and move a lot of volume. Stick a mat in the Gulf Stream, and the water is moving around 4MPH past it. The volume of water in the Gulf Stream is also enormous - between 30 and 150 cubic meters per second.

      Since there are about 3.3g of U in a cubic meter of seawater, that gives a minimum of 99g/second just passing by in the Gulf Stream. The world currently consumes around 70,000 tonnes of U per year - so you'd need 70,000 * 1,000 / 0.099 = 8183 days of Gulf Stream water to get enough U for a single year. :)

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    5. Re:Does it pan out? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry but that's just not true unless we swap over all the old reactors to newer ones, and invest in a lot of research.

      Why do I say that? It's because we use U235 as our main fuel source. The isotopic majority of Uranium is U238. It's useful, but mainly in breeder reactors, not BWR, PWRs.
      Yeah, that is simplifying it a lot.

      IAANP.

    6. Re:Does it pan out? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even much longer, if we keep shutting down nuclear plants at the current rate...

    7. Re:Does it pan out? by SQL+Error · · Score: 4, Informative

      30 to 150 million cubic metres per second. So 12 minutes of Gulf Stream flow would contain enough uranium to supply our present needs for a year.

      Though if you could tap the entire Gulf Stream you'd have another source of energy at hand...

    8. Re:Does it pan out? by Ancient_Hacker · · Score: 3, Informative

      You left out a few prefixes of "million" and "milli", making your analysis way off, at first. There are 30 million cubic meters per sec of gulf stream flow. there are 3 milligrams of Uranium per cubic meter of seawater. So that's 90 Kilos of Uranium per second.

      But you're unlikely to be able to intercept more than a thousandth of the gulf stream, so we're back to 90 g per second. the goofs cancel out!

    9. Re:Does it pan out? by Rei · · Score: 1

      That's 30 to 150 Sverdrups. A Sverdrup is 1.000.000 m^3/s, aka 1.000.000.000 kg/s, and thus at 0.003ppm U by mass, contains 3 kilograms per second, meaning to recover 70.000 tonnes a year (70.000.000kg) takes ~23.000.000 seconds, aka 270 days, aka a 3/4ths recovery rate is sufficient.

      Of course, the Gulf Stream is just one of the Earth's many oceanic currents.

      --
      Freeze Ray. Tell your friends.
    10. Re:Does it pan out? by MozeeToby · · Score: 2

      Ok, fine, lets say there's only thousands of years of Uranium usable in today's reactors. You don't think that maybe, just maybe, reactor design would change over the next few thousand years?

    11. Re:Does it pan out? by gman003 · · Score: 1

      The reason this is valuable is not so much that it's economical today, as that there's enough uranium in the ocean to provide all our electricity needs for millions of years.

      But it might prove useful for decontamination. Perhaps the uranium-free water is more important than the water-free uranium.

      It might also prove useful for countries trying to develop nuclear systems (both peaceful and military) in secret. Sure, you'd still have to use a centrifuge process to get weapons-grade stuff, but this would allow any non-landlocked country to obtain natural-state uranium.

    12. Re:Does it pan out? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Considering what's happened within the lifetime of nuclear power to date, no I don't see much happening for another couple of decades (in the Western World) unless there's a massive change in political and social thinking.

      Part of the message that has to go out to the public is "look at how old these things are. Don't you want them replaced with newer/better/safer versions?".
      Maybe we should get Apple marketing involved, but I shudder to think what the price tag would then become.

      Ironically enough, this just arrived in my inbox:
      THU 30.08.12 08:30-13:30
      THE FUTURE OF ENERGY: DREAMS AND RESPONSIBILITIES
      Join energy experts from around the world as they discuss the future of energy - clean fossil fuels, next generation solar applications, and other renewable energy solutions. Sponsored by the University of Notre Dame, speakers include NASA Administrator Charles F. Bolden Jr. Admission: Free.

    13. Re:Does it pan out? by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2

      "maybe, reactor design would change over the next few thousand years?"

      "no I don't see much happening for another couple of decades (in the Western World)"

      Ah, Slashdot.

    14. Re:Does it pan out? by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Ahhh, that explains why the volume numbers on Wikipedia didn't pass the sniff test.

      It seems they also have a bad number for the 3.3g of U per cubic meter of seawater... it should be 1000 times less than that. That did seem a tad high.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    15. Re:Does it pan out? by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately I took my numbers from Wikipedia, and they are all off by a million here and a thousand there :(

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    16. Re:Does it pan out? by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Don't laugh - I had a friend at the army corp who was working on feasibility calculations to build a wall that would divert the Gulf Stream to hug the East Coast of the US.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    17. Re:Does it pan out? by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      A quibic meter of sea water does not hold 3.3 grams Uranium but 3.3 mili grams.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    18. Re:Does it pan out? by ThatsMyNick · · Score: 1

      Why? To increase the coastal erosion we already have?

    19. Re:Does it pan out? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am pretty sure we europeans don't agree with that. The damage to europe would be so huge it be like a declaration of war.

    20. Re:Does it pan out? by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Yeah, pretty much. I'd pay to see the report.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    21. Re:Does it pan out? by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      To bring the same benefits to the Eastern US that Europe currently enjoys: milder winters and a longer growing season.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    22. Re:Does it pan out? by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      What are you going to do hold your breath?

      Seriously, you can't spot this as obvious nonsense?

      Would you also object to the monster raving loony party towing England south to improve their climate?

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  6. What's a "sort of" catalyst? by Rogerborg · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Is that like a "sort of" virgin, or a "sort of" complete ignoramus?

    It's a word with a very specific scientific meaning. Use it for that purpose, or find a different one.

    --
    If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    1. Re:What's a "sort of" catalyst? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's no kind of catalyst. The molten salt (ionic liquid) used to extract the chitin may be a catalyst--the article doesn't go into those kind of details. The chitin is used to make a "sort of" mat. The mat holds a substance that reacts with the uranium. Thus, if you leave the mat floating in seawater, it eventually picks up a bunch of uranium. The chitin's only contribution to this is to hold the substance that reacts with the uranium. This allows them to collect the uranium by removing the mat, rinsing off the reactive substance and the uranium, and then separating the uranium from the reactive substance. After that, they can put more of the reactive substance on the chitin mat and send it out to collect more uranium.

      The neat science here is the molten salt that extracts the chitin from the shells, the spinning of the chitin into the fine threads of the mat, and the different kind of reactive substances that they use to collect the uranium. The neat part of the chitin is that they can use it spin extra-fine threads that they then use in the mat. It does not seem to have any chemical responsibilities in the extraction. It's just what they use to hold the important chemical in place.

  7. Cockroaches of the sea by Gothmolly · · Score: 1

    I can't see why anyone eats shrimp.

    --
    I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
    1. Re:Cockroaches of the sea by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Because they taste good?

      If cockroaches tasted as good I would eat those too.

    2. Re:Cockroaches of the sea by drwho · · Score: 1

      because not everyone is Jewish or Muslim. Some people like it. get over it.

    3. Re:Cockroaches of the sea by MightyYar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The better question is, why don't more people eat cockroaches?

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    4. Re:Cockroaches of the sea by spongman · · Score: 1

      because the kinds of microbes that live in cockroaches are the same kind that make you dead.

    5. Re:Cockroaches of the sea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Because the slimy inside taste terrible an you can't peel them like shrimps( and get some clean muscle tissue).

    6. Re:Cockroaches of the sea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shrimp doesn't disgust me like Lobster does.

      Lobster is a great big cockroach with claws, there was a reason that only the poor used to it.

    7. Re:Cockroaches of the sea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "sort of" dead?

    8. Re:Cockroaches of the sea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "sort of" dead

    9. Re:Cockroaches of the sea by Hillgiant · · Score: 1

      The little ones don't have a good meat to shell ratio. And people already eat the big ones.

      --
      -
    10. Re:Cockroaches of the sea by Translation+Error · · Score: 1

      Oh, they do. They just don't realize it.

      --
      When someone says, "Any fool can see ..." they're usually exactly right.
    11. Re:Cockroaches of the sea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, while shrimp is unkosher and forbidden for consumption in Judaism, it is (surprisingly, to the uninitiated like myself) either halal or at least not explicitly forbidden.

    12. Re:Cockroaches of the sea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They probably do.

  8. Am I the only one ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... who originally read ORNL as ORLY?

  9. Pinky Jindal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I could not understand this well.

  10. W.O.M.B.A.T. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Breeder reactors, bitches!
    Make all the fuel we need from fuel (and bombs) we already have!

  11. Swoon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh chitin. Is there anything it can't do?

    1. Re:Swoon by Rei · · Score: 1

      Is there anything it can't do?

      Fail the mayor. Not ever.

      --
      Freeze Ray. Tell your friends.
  12. Makes me wonder by fustakrakich · · Score: 0

    Why aren't we extracting what we need most from seawater? Water... Oh, never mind.. no money in it. We need the uranium to bomb countries that have lots of fresh water. Big money there.

    --
    “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    1. Re:Makes me wonder by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      There are cheaper sources of water on and under the surface. People are not afraid to go with desalination when necessary.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    2. Re:Makes me wonder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Umm, there are a lot of places that run desalination plants to produce fresh water from seawater. It is energy intensive, so it tends to be expensive and one of the last options used when other sources of water are not available. Also, because it is expensive, and because there is money in supplying water, there is quite a bit of research into reducing the energy requirements of large scale desalination. There is also plenty of research into cheap, small scale desalination equipment that could be donated to places without the infrastructure or money to run it on an industrial scale.

  13. more Uranium? by spongman · · Score: 1, Informative

    Uranium sucks:

    unless you're talking Uranium-233 bred in a thorium-fueled reactor, of course...

    1. Re:more Uranium? by MozeeToby · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You do realize that, with continued research into sea water extraction, your first four objections go away? It could be extracted from anywhere with access to the sea, as safely as fishing, and there is enough to power all of humanity for thousands of years. As to the rest, proliferation is largely a political problem, one that can't be ignored no doubt but certainly not insurmountable. Waste is a larger issue of course, breeder reactors would help there but you've still got to put it somewhere. I'd say launch it into the sun once we get the rocket tech to do that efficiently but that seems awfully wasteful (after all, if it's energetic enough to be dangerous we can probably find a user for it somewhere in the long term).

    2. Re:more Uranium? by spongman · · Score: 1

      with continued research into sea water extraction, your first four objections go away

      actually 2&3 are still valid. regardless, it's only viable when you get from $300/lb pre-process to $50/lb market.
      there's NO excuse for enriching Uranium anywhere (i'm looking at Iran/N. Korea here), other than 1) making weapons, or 2) supporting a (environmentally|politically|economically) hazardous status-quo.

    3. Re:more Uranium? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it's only mined significantly in a few countries, several of which don't like us.
      Only because environmentalists block new mines in stable 1st world countries. The largest reserves of Uranium are in US, Canada, Australia, and Kazakhstan.
      it's hard to mine.
      No harder than mining any other precious ore
      it's dangerous to mine [wikipedia.org].
      No more so than mining anything else
      there's not much left.
      No, there are literally millions of years of Uranium available. Using fast reactors, there is literally 1000-2000 years worth of uranium already mined siting around unused in barrels as depleted uranium
      it's difficult to use - you have to extract the fissile isotope [wikipedia.org] first.
      No you don't. We have CANDU, thorium, and fast reactors.
      this enrichment process [wikipedia.org] is useful for making bombs [wikipedia.org]
      Doesn't have to be enriched, see above
      when you do get to use it, it produces large amounts of hazardous waste [wikipedia.org].
        Actually, it produces a very tiny amount of compact waste which can be safely stored indefinitely.
      some of that waste [wikipedia.org] can also be used to make bombs [wikipedia.org]
      No it can't. Reactor-grade plutonium is poisoned with Pu-240 preventing its use in bombs.

    4. Re:more Uranium? by icebrain · · Score: 1

      I'd say launch it into the sun once we get the rocket tech to do that efficiently but that seems awfully wasteful

      That would actually take a good bit more energy than just ejecting it from the solar system entirely.

      --
      The meek may inherit the earth, but the strong shall take the stars.
    5. Re:more Uranium? by artfulshrapnel · · Score: 1

      Well, they ARE loaded with extremely high density fuel. Just get it into orbit and then use that stuff to propel it wherever you want. Heck, shoot them out in random directions with messages to aliens written on the side. The isotopes will continue to decay for millenia, and should be easy to detect for any reasonably advanced species studying the heavens. Add in some nuclear powered broadcasters of some kind if you want to be really sure it gets attention. When suitably advanced extraterrestrials notice the weird radiation source passing through their star system they can either investigate it directly (if they have an easy way to retrieve it) or backtrace its path to get an approximate direction for Earth.

      Oh deadly radiation, is there anything you aren't useful for?

    6. Re:more Uranium? by rbrander · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm not sure what 2 even means; "hard to mine?" Lots of things are hard - try raising kids. In economic terms, "hard" just means "expensive". It's either affordable or it isn't.

      In context of the total cost of nuclear power, it's been getting expensive and rare lately because of soaring *construction* costs, not fuel costs, since fuel costs are a single-digit percentage of the whole; it's almost all about paying off the multi-billion-dollar mortgage on the plant. Even before this discovery, the Japanese believed they could extract uranium from seawater for a few hundred dollars per kg - that's several times the current price, but should we "run out of uranium" (i.e. nothing but "hard" places left), then a ceiling will be put on the price, since it would take many centuries of "mining the sea" for the concentration to decline.

      Before that happens, of course, it'll become affordable to re-process spent nuclear fuel, which means 97% of what is currently regarded as "waste" will become fuel again, because reprocessing costs 3X as much as mining new stuff. That 30:1 ratio will stretch out the supply a ways.

      As for "dangerous", your own link to radon notes that new standards for mining procedure were enacted back in 1971. Most of the data on higher lung cancers and so forth come from those exposed some time ago, particularly Navaho uranium miners, where there were many allegations that racism prevented a more serious response to their concerns.

      More recently you can run across comments like this one:

      On June 18, 2004, the Saskatchewan Uranium Miners' Cohort Study Group released its report on a feasiblity study it had begun in 2002:
      "It concludes that it is not scientifically feasible to conduct a study of present and future miners who work in modern Saskatchewan uranium mines (1975 onward). Today’s Saskatchewan uranium miners have radon exposures that are between 100 and 1000 times lower than those of past uranium miners, such as miners from Beaverlodge, because of dose limits, improved mining techniques, and other radiation protection practices. Any higher-than-normal rates of lung cancer from such workplace exposures would be virtually impossible to measure. The feasibility study was completed in October 2003 and it was then reviewed by three internationally respected radiation researchers." [ http://www.wise-uranium.org/uhm.html ]

      Simply, this is an engineering and economic issue. Proper safety procedure lowers the risks of mining hazardous materials (where do you think things like arsenic and mercury come from? Somebody has to extract and purify them...), and make the risks tolerable - at least as tolerable as coal mining, your only practical alternative...and they also increase the cost of the extraction, which is then either affordable or it isn't. In the case of the nuclear industry, it would probably only a a tenth-cent per kWh to pay double or triple for uranium, so it's always going to be affordable to mine it - and dispose of it - safely.

      The industry doesn't WANT to, any more than slaughterhouses want to pay a decent wage and up the cost of your hamburger by a nickel; but that's a "mere" matter of regulating the activities of very wealthy investors. Hard, (sorry) but possible.

    7. Re:more Uranium? by onyxruby · · Score: 1

      I just ran out of mod points or you'd get a +1 informative.

    8. Re:more Uranium? by Hillgiant · · Score: 1

      • it's only mined significantly in a few countries, several of which don't like us.

      If we have reached the point where we have pissed off Canada and Australia, we really are screwed.

      --
      -
    9. Re:more Uranium? by spongman · · Score: 1

      availability for domestic use is not the issue. my concern is the ability of nutjobs to achieve their desired goal of prematurely bringing the end of the world.

    10. Re:more Uranium? by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

      Proper safety procedure lowers the risks of mining hazardous materials (where do you think things like arsenic and mercury come from? Somebody has to extract and purify them...), and make the risks tolerable - at least as tolerable as coal mining, your only practical alternative

      Coal mining isn't as safe as you'd think
      Here are the headlines from an NPR series on black lung
      As Mine Protections Fail, Black Lung Cases Surge
      Black-Lung Rule Loopholes Leave Miners Vulnerable
      Black Lung: Why Respirators Are Not A Solution
      Surface Coal Miners At Risk For Black Lung
      Federal Mine Agency Considering Tougher Response On Black Lung
      Republican Lawmakers Seek To Block Funding On Black Lung Regulation

      And this has been going on since the late 90s.
      Apparently mining Uranium is safer than mining for coal.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    11. Re:more Uranium? by spongman · · Score: 1

      That would actually take a good bit more energy than just ejecting it from the solar system entirely.

      getting it into the Sun is not the problem, it's getting it safely off the Earth that's the issue.
      the thorium fuel cycle produces ~30x less long-lasting hazardous waste than uranium per W output (~15kg/GWyr).

    12. Re:more Uranium? by rbrander · · Score: 2

      Thanks. I didn't mean coal was safe, just that if you can stand coal, you can definitely stand uranium.

      Coal is so bad, it's incredible anybody puts up any fuss about the poisonousness of nuclear waste - an estimated 24,000 lives lost in America per year from breathing issues alone...that's before you get into the tons of mercury dumped into the air every year by coal plants.

    13. Re:more Uranium? by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Stop that! The kids want their dream of "clean" nuclear power running on roses and puppy farts without the nasty reality getting in the way. You'll be telling them there's no Santa next.

    14. Re:more Uranium? by spongman · · Score: 1

      Stop that! The kids want their dream of "clean" nuclear power running on roses and puppy farts without the nasty reality getting in the way. You'll be telling them there's no Santa next.

      Well, if the roses are made from Thorium and the puppies fart U-233, then that's a good dream in my book. Imagine all those countries in Africa able to feed their population for free by irrigating the deserts with water pumped & desalinated from the sea, cultivating their crops with machinery running on hydrogen electrolyzed from the same. Fuck if we can pump crude from Alaska to Texas, we should be able to move some water around.

      Or we could just keep mining uranium and make more bombs.

  14. Didn't know "adsorption" was a word by mnemotronic · · Score: 1

    Never took chemistry. After studying the Wikipedia entry for Adsorption I have determined that "The Adsorption Chillers" would be a good name for a group or a movie.

    --
    The Russians have won. They have made the world a cesspool of distrust, greed, fear and hate.
  15. Sounds fishy to me. by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 1

    And likely to make me crabby. So, taken from seawater to light bulb. Is it energy positive or not? And what does it cost per watt? And why do I still start sentences with "And?"

    --
    Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
  16. So much fail, so little comment by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

    We need it to produce electricity; we already have enough fissile material to blow up whomever we want.

    And the countries we would prefer to turn into a flat landscape of radioactive glass (I liked the idea of calling it New Iowa, myself), have oil but no fresh water.

    Most of us don't need more fresh water, provided we manage to keep our "economic engine" from screwing up the supplies we have and quit having more children. Those last two are not advice the politicians on the right side of the aisle endorse, though.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    1. Re:So much fail, so little comment by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      And the countries we would prefer to turn into a flat landscape of radioactive glass... have oil but no fresh water.

      Maybe you're not aware of what's under the ground where this man walked... oh yeah, and this guy also. This should enlighten you what this "Arab Spring" was really about.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
  17. Other elements by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    The fact is, that uranium is increasingly not going to be an important issue. The reason is that over the next decade, the reactors will be of 2 designs:
    1) something to burn up current waste. It will still require loads of 'waste' which it will burn up.
    2) thorium reactors.
    As such, pulling uranium is not that big of a deal.

    Now, if they can pull a number of other elements out of there, they would have something. If you look at this, you will see some rather useful elements:
    Lithium
    Metals such as Aluminum, iron, etc.
    Rare earths such Scandium, Neodymium, etc
    Perhaps even gold.

    Now, there is a group who is doing just this, but they are not getting it from the Ocean. Instead, they are getting it from geo-thermal energy plants.
    Simbol Materials is looking to pull minerals, in particular lihtium, from already concentrated fluids.
    For now, they will go after Lithium, manganese and zinc, but with the idea that down the road, they will grab other minerals as they can be done economical.
    What is interesting is that Lithium 'mined' this way, should be a fraction of the price than anything on the market today.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.