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Lance Armstrong and the Science of Drug Testing

Hugh Pickens writes "As the media reports that seven-time Tour de France champion Lance Armstrong says he will no longer fight doping charges from the US Anti-Doping Agency, which will strip him of his titles and ban him from competitive cycling for life, Tracee Hamilton writes that the Lance Armstrong vs. USADA fight is a tough one in which to take a side, because to believe USADA means suspending belief in the science of drug testing. 'If you take personalities out of the equation, you're left with pee in a cup and blood in a syringe,' writes Hamilton. 'Armstrong never failed a drug test. He was tested in competition, out of competition. He was tested at the Olympics, at the Tour de France, at dozens if not hundreds of other events. And he never failed a test.' Instead Travis Tygart, chief executive officer of the USADA, gathered a group of people who swear they saw Armstrong doping. 'If the results can be discarded in favor of testimony, then let's go right to the testimony phase and quit horsing around with blood and urine.' There has been no trial, no due process, but in the minds of many, that testimony outweighs the results of hundreds of drug tests. 'I don't know if Armstrong did the things he's accused of doing, and neither do you,' concludes Hamilton adding that it can't work both ways. 'Either a drug test is the standard, or it isn't.'"

103 of 482 comments (clear)

  1. drugs by kiep · · Score: 5, Insightful

    are awesome

    1. Re:drugs by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 5, Funny

      My grandmother relied exclusively on anecdotal sources of evidence, and she lived to be 104!

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    2. Re:drugs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Believe whatever you want. Amphetamines are magic and I hope they don't work for you or anybody else I come in contact with. Believe for every brilliant person that is drug free, there's someone equally as brilliant that is hopped up on Adderal and he will stomp you in the ground intellectually. I didn't believe it either until I gave it a shot one day and suddenly figured out why some of the people around me seem to have the magical ability of putting their brains on overdrive auto-pilot from the moment they walk in the door until the moment they leave. Incidentally, those were also the people that had the best insights, the easiest time dealing with clients, and just plain did the best work. Now I'm one of those people and I like it.

    3. Re:drugs by DaHat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Interesting that your outrage is with the partying in the street... and not with a President who now has more power than any leader in the history of the world... to simply decide (on his own) that an individual is a threat to the security of the US... and order their death... either with SEALS or the more common use of a drone strike... even when the target in question is an American citizen.

      Be upset if you want... but make sure you point your shame or anger in the right direction.

    4. Re:drugs by funwithBSD · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Except... OBL took credit for the deaths on 9/11.

      He did not just admit it, but made videos just short of "PWND JOO!" and teabagging the corpse ilk and rubbed it in our face.

      He declared war on the US, and however crazy that sounds, it did make him a combatant, not a criminal.

      --
      Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
    5. Re:drugs by Surt · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That completely explains why he never denied it after that video was released, even though he made other subsequent statements via arabic news outlets.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    6. Re:drugs by funwithBSD · · Score: 2

      Apparently you are unfamiliar with the concept of war.

      In my opinion, since OBL declared war on us before the attacks on 9/11, in August 1996, the tower attack was not a criminal act, but an act of war.

      There is no chain of evidence, or hearsay, or courtrooms on the battlefield.

      Rather, "War is Diplomacy by other means" - Clauzwitz

      He said nothing about Justice.

      --
      Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
    7. Re:drugs by qeveren · · Score: 2

      Apparently you are unfamiliar with the concept of war.

      War is something that happens between two states. You can't have a war with 'terrorist' or even Al Qaida. The best you can manage is a police action with any credibility is a police action.

      --
      Don't just stand there, get that other dog!
    8. Re:drugs by zachie · · Score: 2

      How are you not afraid of the side effects? You are selling your mental health for temporary brilliance. Does not sound like a good plan to me.

    9. Re:drugs by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

      War is something that happens between two states.

      So I assume a civil war is one where the soldiers ask nicely before shooting each other?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  2. Drug test the final standard? by XanC · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't think anyone has ever believed that passing a drug test mean the person was clean for sure. Why do they store samples for X number of years in order to re-test them in the future, with better technology? It's because if it's found out later that somebody was doping, then his results are invalid.

    If we find out some other way besides a drug test that somebody was doping, then his results are invalid.

    1. Re:Drug test the final standard? by idontgno · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So, for a sufficiently large value of "X", X liars can trump science?

      I hope this standard never propagates into criminal law.

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    2. Re:Drug test the final standard? by Firehed · · Score: 2

      Sure - but trusting what someone thought they saw over science (very well-tested science, mind you - my understanding is that false positives are far more likely than false negatives, then multiply that by hundreds of tests) isn't necessarily a good approach. It's very common for people to swear up and down that they saw something when reality is something completely different.

      I'm not making a statement either way, but I'm much more inclined to trust highly repeatable data than subjective eyewitnesses. People hold grudges, test results do not.

      --
      How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
    3. Re:Drug test the final standard? by Godai · · Score: 3, Interesting

      He never said "liars", you did. He's just saying that the article is mis-framing the problem. I don't know anybody personally who believes the drug tests for these sporting events can't be beaten. That's not the same thing as saying that "If enough people say something is true, it trumps science", its a recognition that there are other ways to come at a solution,and the fallibility of the science we have. If we had video of Armstrong shooting up some kind of drug, or some kind of personal statement to that effect on tape or on paper, I think we'd all agree that trumped the test, wouldn't we?

      In this, I don't know enough about the people who've testified. Maybe they're not trustworthy, in which case I'd probably agree with you on this one. But you're still completely misstating the OP's point.

      --
      Wood Shavings!
      - Godai
    4. Re:Drug test the final standard? by Macthorpe · · Score: 5, Informative

      No, that's not what's being said at all.

      What the USADA is saying is that the kind of doping that Lance Armstrong was allegedly going through with (example, blood doping) is very hard to detect, and as such tests at the time and even now have problems picking it up. What they do have is more than a dozen people willing to testify that they saw him do it.

      He already tried to block the decision via the US courts and failed. He still had plenty of options left to fight the charge, including actually turning up to discussions they invited him to and also involving independent bodies like the Court of Arbitration for Sport, but instead of that he's given up and said he can't be bothered. Whether that shows that he's just weary of being persecuted or he realised he can't win, or whether it's a tacit admission of guilt, will probably be debated for years to come.

      As it is, he won't dispute the charge so he's guilty, and it's a sad ending regardless.

      --
      "It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him." - Tolkien
    5. Re:Drug test the final standard? by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The tests were good enough to catch many many many other cyclists. Including the greatest cyclist ever, Edy Merckx back in the 60s.

      Even if you follow their testimony to conclude he cheated...so did literally everybody else. The vast numbers of actual drug test fails speak to that clearly.

      So in the end, he was perhaps better at hiding the cheating, but he was still massively better at actual cycling than any other cyclist at the time who was also very likely cheating as well.

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    6. Re:Drug test the final standard? by belthize · · Score: 2

      Of all the commonly held beliefs this is one of my least favorite. The idea that you've only committed a crime or cheated if you get caught takes the whole tree in a forest thing to an absurd level.

      The effects of your actions are real and measurable regardless of whether you're detected.

    7. Re:Drug test the final standard? by cc1984_ · · Score: 5, Informative

      This page is very informative and, if it is to be believed, implies that there was some scientific basis for calling him out as a cheat

      http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden

    8. Re:Drug test the final standard? by cpu6502 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      >>> If we had video of Armstrong shooting up some kind of drug, or some kind of personal statement to that effect on tape or on paper, I think we'd all agree that trumped the test, wouldn't we?

      No.
      He could be shooting a legal drug that's not banned. And a personal statement does not mean much. To add to my other post (below) I once had a security manager swear he saw me stealing. Turns-out he saw me handing brown packages to the postman. The security dope assumed I was stealing from the company (because that's what it looked like), but in reality the packages had been removed from my house, placed in my car, driven to work, and handed to the postman at 10am.

      They had PS2 games inside them. Completely innocent of any crime but the manager's statement was "I saw him stealing packages from work". LIKEWISE just because a video or person claims to see Mr. Armstrong shooting-up does not prove a crime. We have no idea what he is shooting up. It could just be cancer medicine or insulin or sugar water (all legal per the rules).

      Presume innocence until you can PROVE guilt. A video or statement does not prove anything.

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    9. Re:Drug test the final standard? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Whether that shows that he's just weary of being persecuted or he realised he can't win, or whether it's a tacit admission of guilt, will probably be debated for years to come.

      Or maybe going what he went through to fight cancer has made him realize that life is too short to worry about the USADA's shit.

    10. Re:Drug test the final standard? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      No, that's not what's being said at all.

      What the USADA is saying is that the kind of doping that Lance Armstrong was allegedly going through with (example, blood doping) is very hard to detect, and as such tests at the time and even now have problems picking it up. What they do have is more than a dozen people willing to testify that they saw him do it.

      He already tried to block the decision via the US courts and failed. He still had plenty of options left to fight the charge, including actually turning up to discussions they invited him to and also involving independent bodies like the Court of Arbitration for Sport, but instead of that he's given up and said he can't be bothered. Whether that shows that he's just weary of being persecuted or he realised he can't win, or whether it's a tacit admission of guilt, will probably be debated for years to come.

      As it is, he won't dispute the charge so he's guilty, and it's a sad ending regardless.

      The way I understand it, USADA can't strip Armstrong of anything.

      UCI would have to do that, and UCI doesn't seem too inclined to do USADA's bidding here:

      The sport's governing body said Friday it expects USADA to submit documents "to the parties concerned," as the case threatens to wipe a cycling icon almost out of the record books.

      "The UCI recognizes that USADA is reported as saying that it will strip Mr. Armstrong of all results from 1998 onwards in addition to imposing a lifetime ban from participating in any sport which recognizes the World Anti-Doping Code," the Switzerland-based organization said in a statement.

      "As USADA has claimed jurisdiction in the case the UCI expects that it will issue a reasoned decision" explaining the action taken, the UCI said, adding that legal procedures obliged USADA to fulfill this demand in cases "where no hearing occurs."

      In other words, USADA has to put all the evidence it has out, and it has to be a "reasoned decision".

      The question is, what is a "reasoned decision"? A group of cyclists who WERE caught doping testifying they saw Armstrong doping - but only making that testimony when threatened with a lifetime ban if they didn't?

    11. Re:Drug test the final standard? by cpu6502 · · Score: 2

      >>>He still had plenty of options left to fight the charge, including actually turning up to discussions they invited him to and also involving independent bodies like the Court of Arbitration

      You mean a trumped-up kangaroo court. Like that James Kirk trial in Star Trek 6..... no good can come from such a situation where the person "invited to talk" is systematically framed & words twisted to make him look guilty. Either they have the evidence, or they don't, and in this case they don't. Which means they are trying to frame the man through dirty, underhanded tactics.

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    12. Re:Drug test the final standard? by DarkOx · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I am sorry organization like the USADA and the NCAA are total unmitigated BS for this reason. What you are basically saying is that the USADA had not in 10 years come up with any evidence better than hear say and questionably reliable testimony, and they get to find him guilty unless he decides to go on playing their games as long they wish to do so. Its totally contrary to our basic concept of the presumption of innocence which I really does not apply to such agencies. Still this is in many ways more like a criminal proceeding than other civil matters and I for one think the presumption of innocence is pretty fundamental to justice in general.

      I don't see why they should be allowed to conduct a 10 year persecution, not prosecution, of someone and when that someone finally gets tired of it declare victory. I don't see why they should then be allowed to rewrite history either. The USADA does not want to recognize him as a winner, fine but don't ask me to recognize or respect the judgement of the USADA. Lace IS A WINNER no matter what they want print in their damned books.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    13. Re:Drug test the final standard? by DutchUncle · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Yes, he said liars, and I agree. Birthers wanted a long-form certificate, got one, and decided it must be fake. How many people must have colluded to cheat vs. how many people are claiming that they *think* something is wrong? Isaac Asimov has a character in "The Evitable Conflict" say, in response to accusations that a person is secretly a robot, "Instead of saying "I've never caught him eating or sleeping", you claim "He never eats! He never sleeps!"" (paraphrased).

      Personally I've always figured that something about going through chemotherapy had given Armstrong an advantage - mental certainly, in that anything he went through afterwards couldn't be worse, but physically as well in that he had been stripped down to skin and bone and built himself back up very deliberately. And maybe something about the allowable medical treatment that he continued to need that was supposedly calculated to be fair was miscalculated. I'm suggesting that maybe he was skating just right up to the margins of legality, without quite stepping over it.

    14. Re:Drug test the final standard? by TemperedAlchemist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Lance is (or was) doping. Every top athlete is doping. Bolt, Phelps; they're dopers too (and I don't mean marijuana). That's just what it takes to be at that level unless you're a genetic freak.

      Good genes and a great training/diet program can only take someone so far. There's a limit to how far the body can go before it starts to break down. Overuse injuries like tendinosis or rhabdomyolysis can and will occur if someone works too hard. And that's just what it takes to achieve that level of near superhuman ability: by working too hard. Forget anabolic steroids, that's rookie stuff. We're talking about chemicals that improve the body's ability to bounce back and keeps it from grinding to a halt from overuse.

      And detection? Forget about it. There are more ways to hide doping than there are ways to discover it, and there is a lot of money being put into hiding it -- far more than is being put into detection. You'll be able to catch the guys that can't afford to hide it, but not the guys that really dish out the cash.

      As far as Lance is concerned, don't strip his titles because some people have said he's been doping. That's hearsay bullshit, and not how justice works. Either get the proof -- REAL evidence -- or shut up and go back to whatever hole you climbed out of. The laughable part about them is that he actually went through 500 drug tests and came back clean. If you know someone is doping and able to hide it what do you think they're going to do once you start jamming drug tests down their throat? You think they're going to keep on with their same regimen? It's like having the police search a pothead's house a few hundred times and hoping this time they got careless. Come on, someone needs to get a thinking cap.

    15. Re:Drug test the final standard? by c++0xFF · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So in the end, he was perhaps better at hiding the cheating, but he was still massively better at actual cycling than any other cyclist at the time who was also very likely cheating as well.

      This.

      If Lance is lying and has been doping his whole career, I don't think that diminishes much from his accomplishments.

      On the other hand, if he's telling the truth, it shows just how incredible he really was.

    16. Re:Drug test the final standard? by UnknowingFool · · Score: 2

      Yes but in those cases, they tested for unknown substances or substances for which there was no reliable test years after the fact. In this case, the drug in question is EPO which had a test since 2000. Armstrong's tour victories was 1999 - 2005. The USADA is not saying they went back and tested older samples and found a positive match. They are saying that they believe testimony over all those negative tests.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    17. Re:Drug test the final standard? by ackthpt · · Score: 5, Informative

      I don't think anyone has ever believed that passing a drug test mean the person was clean for sure. Why do they store samples for X number of years in order to re-test them in the future, with better technology? It's because if it's found out later that somebody was doping, then his results are invalid.

      If we find out some other way besides a drug test that somebody was doping, then his results are invalid.

      The great irony here is Lance Armstrong donated funds for the most sophisticated drug testing machines which are used in labs for testing bicycle athletes as well as others. I've spent years reading the science of testing and the amatuer science dopers used to beat the system, many of the biggest cheats were caught with the doping substances and/or equipment. But some have been caught thanks to advances in scients which now establish baselines and profile racers, where certain blood blood hormones decrease over a 3 week race and a spike or leveling off at a higher than expected level will get a rider pulled. Microdosing may provide a tiny (some studies suggest negligible boost) assist, which are hard to measure, particularly if a the substance is consumed during the event and no marker remains at the end.

      Taking the personalities out of it .. Lance was either astoundingly good at managing it or he didn't dope. Putting the personalities into it, you have to ask, what Lance does - what's in it for these people to testify against him, other than being rewarded with reduced or suspended bans? USADA clearly muddied the water and it probably wouldn't hold up in a court of law with out solid evidence.

      I'm of the opinion he's innocent until actually proven guilty, not just on the word of a lot of people who have various reasons to disparage him (word from inside his own teams is he's demanding and a tough gut to get along with.)

      I wouldn't take anything Landis says as fact, after his attempt to blackmail Greg Lemond (by telling what he knew of what Greg suffered as a child.) He's a pretty low creature. The rest I can't really say one way or the other, though Hincapie I might find most believable.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    18. Re:Drug test the final standard? by msauve · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Because he has admitted to taking banned substances, both steroids and EPO, as part of his cancer treatment (to mitigate the effects of chemotherapy). That use was within the rules.

      He can hardly say he's never taken banned substances when he's already admitted that he has.

      You seem to be the type who assumes guilt because someone pleads the 5th Amendment. It's up to the accuser to prove guilt, not up to the accused to prove innocence.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    19. Re:Drug test the final standard? by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 2

      If everybody is wearing stilts and I'm still the tallest...I'm still the tallest and yes I'll bask in that.

      The sport has been diminished, but not by Armstrong.

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    20. Re:Drug test the final standard? by hondo77 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Nice try but you are wrong.

      --
      I live ze unknown. I love ze unknown. I am ze unknown.
    21. Re:Drug test the final standard? by Forty+Two+Tenfold · · Score: 4, Funny
      This reminds me a quote from George Carlin:

      FUCK Lance Armstrong.

      --
      Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
    22. Re:Drug test the final standard? by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Anyone else ever been in a situation where you knew you were right, had the evidence mostly on your side, and give up?

      Yup. I've been in that situation many times myself, as have most other married men.

      There's more to winning than being right and being able to prove it. You still have to live with everyone else afterwards.

      In this case, Lance decided that dragging this fight on wasn't worth it for him going forward -- that could be because he was guilty, it could be because he'd rather do something else with his life and the stigma of doping doesn't weigh as heavily on his life as having to constantly fight these people and be in the negative limelight. Or, more likely, he was doping with something that isn't yet illegal, but would be as soon as they found out what he was doing. Under this argument, there are probably lots of others using similar techniques who are still considered "clean", and he'd be taking one for the team.

      But any of these arguments are possible. Condemning him because he doesn't behave the same way as you is a slippery slope to fascism.

    23. Re:Drug test the final standard? by ackthpt · · Score: 4, Insightful

      >>> If we had video of Armstrong shooting up some kind of drug, or some kind of personal statement to that effect on tape or on paper, I think we'd all agree that trumped the test, wouldn't we?

      No.
      He could be shooting a legal drug that's not banned. And a personal statement does not mean much. To add to my other post (below) I once had a security manager swear he saw me stealing. Turns-out he saw me handing brown packages to the postman. The security dope assumed I was stealing from the company (because that's what it looked like), but in reality the packages had been removed from my house, placed in my car, driven to work, and handed to the postman at 10am.

      They had PS2 games inside them. Completely innocent of any crime but the manager's statement was "I saw him stealing packages from work". LIKEWISE just because a video or person claims to see Mr. Armstrong shooting-up does not prove a crime. We have no idea what he is shooting up. It could just be cancer medicine or insulin or sugar water (all legal per the rules).

      Presume innocence until you can PROVE guilt. A video or statement does not prove anything.

      In competition riders could be pulled for testing before or after a stage. Pretty hard to give yourself EPO while riding and all the cameras on you, it has to be injected, not taken as food, drink or from a patch. If tested before a stage a tested rider cannot return to his hotel or disappear into a team bus, but must go to the starting area. Out in the open it's pretty darn har to hide needles, bags of transfusion blood, etc.

      It's a pretty weak whack the USADA is taking at Armstrong and I'm quite surprised he's not going into their den and ripping up the accusations in the faces of his accusers. But USADA having his wins, income, medal, etc, all yanked for all competitions from 1998 on based upon the word of people, but no hard evidence is something I expected Lance could have overturned in court ... probably in a couple more years. Which makes much of this "tired of fighting, not going to fight anymore" understandable.

      As pointed out in various sources, every time he gets one accuser discredited another one pops up in a never ending game of whack-a-mole. He's chosing to ignore USADA, which is probably the only defence he saw at some point. His attorneys served a letter to USADA stating he doesn't accept their findings. Wait to see what the UCI has to say.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    24. Re:Drug test the final standard? by michael_cain · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's hearsay bullshit, and not how justice works.

      Let's be precise. "A says 'I saw Lance shooting up,'" is eyewitness testimony and is admissible. "A says 'B told me that he saw Lance shooting up,'" is hearsay and is not admissible. In a court of law, the prosecutor would probably decline to go with only the eyewitness testimony, unless it included enough to show that said injection was of banned drugs. It seems telling to me that several governments have conducted investigations and none have filed charges. Not that Lance is clean, but that there's insufficient evidence to file criminal charges. The USADA is a civil rather than criminal matter at best, and has a much lower evidenciary standard.

    25. Re:Drug test the final standard? by RoknrolZombie · · Score: 2

      I have, plenty of times. Not with something "this big", of course, but there have been times where I was sexually harassed at work that I "let go" because I didn't feel like dealing with the bullshit involved. I've accepted (and paid) speeding tickets that I could have fought (and won), but didn't feel the investment of my time was worthwhile (face it - if your options are spend $300 to travel to the city to pay the ticket and the ticket is only $100, even if my insurance goes up it's easier to just pay and keep my "free time" then it is to dispute the charges). I'm sure I'm not the only one. Now, this isn't to say he's innocent...but AFAIC until he's proven guilty, he should be considered so.

    26. Re:Drug test the final standard? by icebike · · Score: 2

      This page is very informative and, if it is to be believed, implies that there was some scientific basis for calling him out as a cheat

      http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden

      Not convincing to me.
      The guy is full of waffle words, and backtracking, and third hand info.
      He never had hands on with any of these samples"

      The laboratory, I've checked with the people who did the analysis, and I very carefully went through it with them. They're absolutely 100% sure that these results are valid

      yet the very samples he is talking about showed inconsistent results, not only between A and B samples but within the same (A) sample.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    27. Re:Drug test the final standard? by NatasRevol · · Score: 5, Informative

      Very good call.

      Pertinent quote.

      I have never doped, and, unlike many of my accusers, I have competed as an endurance athlete for 25 years with no spike in performance, passed more than 500 drug tests and never failed one. That USADA ignores this fundamental distinction and charges me instead of the admitted dopers says far more about USADA, its lack of fairness and this vendetta than it does about my guilt or innocence.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    28. Re:Drug test the final standard? by firewrought · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Whether that shows that he's just weary of being persecuted or he realised he can't win, or whether it's a tacit admission of guilt, will probably be debated for years to come.

      Or maybe going what he went through to fight cancer has made him realize that life is too short to worry about the USADA's shit.

      Or maybe we should view Lance as an "heroic cheat" who overcame cancer, built his body/team into a better cheating machine than all the other cheaters in the Tour, beat them "fairly" in this larger pharma/athletics game, and donated tons of money and time to cancer research to benefit all humankind.

      Maybe USADA/WADA are an obsolete organization that--while started with noble intentions--are now just trying to whitewash a field that has moved onto a place that the world isn't quite ready to accept yet.

      --
      -1, Too Many Layers Of Abstraction
    29. Re:Drug test the final standard? by Chas · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Lance won and kept winning even against younger, superior talent. Something isn't right there.

      Ah. Bullshit ageism rears its ugly head.

      Younger means fuck-all.

      And if they didn't win (and he wasn't doping) they were NOT "superior".

      You have a guy who's been a professional athlete all his life. Isn't it safe to assume that, though some quirky confluence of genetics and training regimen that he simply might be even fractionally better suited for a certain type of activity than the next random person in the sport? Even at an advanced age, meaning he had more experience in some of these races and was, thus, more familiar with the courses, granting him an edge?

      At his age, response time, peripheral vision and quickness just arent what they were 15-20 years ago.

      That'd probably mean something...for a boxer...or an MMA fighter, etc. Lance was a CYCLIST.

      Response time isn't the biggest determinant here.
      Flat out quickness isn't either.

      Staying power and control over one's cycle and body are. And even someone his age, who's been training most of his adult life, should have that in spades.

      Also, his age isn't so advanced that reduction in peripheral vision should be a problem. He's only about to turn 41.

      Plus when you throw in the towel, it means you don't care or the allegations are correct. I doubt that he doesn't care.

      Thing is. You take enough ass-chewing, sooner or later, all they're getting is scar tissue. Which is damn low on nerve endings. He's been fighting allegations for what? 17 YEARS? Is he supposed to just go on and on and on with this until he falls over dead in an arbitration room and the other side declares victory?

      Sorry, but there are more important things in life than wasting it trying to shut up a bunch of abusive, power-hungry jackasses who just won't leave you alone no matter how hard you try to make them do so. Lance pretty much knows this, and he's reached the point where he either has to commit the rest of his life to facing down these assholes on a daily basis or he can just walk away and live his life.

      Anyone else ever been in a situation where you knew you were right, had the evidence mostly on your side, and give up? Yeah, me neither.

      --


      Chas - The one, the only.
      THANK GOD!!!
    30. Re:Drug test the final standard? by msauve · · Score: 5, Informative
      Well, then. This unequivocal statement wasn't particularly hard to find. Satisfied?

      I have never doped, and, unlike many of my accusers, I have competed as an endurance athlete for 25 years with no spike in performance, passed more than 500 drug tests and never failed one.

      - Lance Armstrong, June 13, 2012

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    31. Re:Drug test the final standard? by funwithBSD · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I hope Gregg Lamond does the right thing and turns his in too in support, same with Mercx and Indurain.

      Cycling has never been lower since Tom Simpson died on the side of the road from an overdose.

      The evidence consists of not one hard fact or test.

      This whole thing goes back to a kerfuffle of three International sports groups and a urine test for EPO in 1999 that came positive, then could not be duplicated in later tests.

      The 1999 test was thrown out at the time because of an independent panel set up by the UCI (Cycling Federation) at the demands of the WADA (World Anti-Doping) and the IOC (Olympics) finding a lack of scientific rigor on the part of the French Lab.

      The WADA, the International parent of the US-ADA, threw that panels findings out because it did not like the results.

      The IOC censured the WADA, and WADA is still butt-hurt. They could not touch him, so they sent the USADA after him.

      It is all eye witnesses. Eye witnesses that are getting a break on their own charges, or people who wrote books and made money on the deal.

      He was tested randomly year round. He was tested after every stage win, or top 10 placement. He was tested every day he wore the Yellow in the TDF. He wears freaking makeup on his arms to cover the tracks he has from being stuck so many times.

      Not one positive.

      Not one.

      Armstrong’s secret is that he trained harder and more effectively than anyone else. He and his trainer Chris Carmichael re-wrote the book on training and nutrition.
      This in a time that his primary rival, Jan Ulrich still drank heavy cream to put on fat in the off season and then trained to get rid of it, thinking it turned into muscle!

      They refined the “dancing on the pedals” style of 6 time champion Indurian and perfected it, allowing him to beat the more powerful Ulirch and the superlight weight Marco Pantini in the hills.

      --
      Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
    32. Re:Drug test the final standard? by Thomas+Miconi · · Score: 5, Informative

      What are the 3 common points between Jan Ullrich, David Millar, Bjarne Riis and Richard Virenque?

      - All of them wore the Tour de France yellow jersey at some point (Riis and Ullrich won the tour outright, Virenque won the mountains classification several times).

      - All of them eventually admitted to doping.

      - None of them were ever caught by the so-called "drug tests". They were found out through other evidence (drug transport interception, raid on clinic, etc.)

      The simple fact is that the drug tests in the 90s were a joke. They got a bit better in the 2000s, and that's how many of the later crop of dopers were caught (Floyd Landis, Tyler Hamilton, etc.) They're still nowhere near 100%. Extraneous evidence is still a major factor in catching dopers.

      Is Lance Armstrong one of the greatest cyclists of all times ? Yes he is - he won 7 Tours while all his competitors were loaded with drugs too!

      Did he do it without doping? If you believe that, either you don't follow cycling much or you're 12.

    33. Re:Drug test the final standard? by esldude · · Score: 2

      Actually Hinault and others took a special cocktail. Working from memory it was a bizarre combination, of amphetamines, strichnine, morphine and alcohol. The morphine would be injected into the large muscles of the legs to dull pain, and the alcohol was I believe just a carrier. The injections would be given quickly under cover of sorts from the support car during the ride. In early drug testing when amphetamines were the main abuse, the testing company knew some were using a drug they couldn't detect. At the Giro d'Italia just days before it started they got confirmation of a test that worked on this previously undetectable speed. Assuming the people paying them would want it done they tested for that too without telling anyone. Out of something like 130 riders guess how many were positive? Say like 130 riders or every stinking one of them. So rather than call it off or declare everyone in violation race organizers said since no team doctors or riders knew they would be tested for that substance, they would hold them accountable in the future and let that one go. My guess is Lance doped, and so did very nearly all the other riders. I don't know what will happen, you can't award to someone else not with any legit way. Many of the others doped, some weren't tested as much. Really pitiful to strip Lance and hand it officially to another doper. Merckx, Indurain, Hinault, Fignon, and Anquetil were all known by admission or otherwise have admitted such things. It is a pitiful statement on pro cycling. Seems Lance shouldn't suffer more than these others though. Really messed up situation. And yes, if the rules are we test, and you pass the test, really should leave it at that. Even testing old samples with new technology shouldn't effect old results. Might be useful to see what is going on, but I don't see going back and altering results that way. And the due process in this case seems worse than non-existent.

    34. Re:Drug test the final standard? by quantaman · · Score: 3, Interesting

      In competition riders could be pulled for testing before or after a stage. Pretty hard to give yourself EPO while riding and all the cameras on you, it has to be injected, not taken as food, drink or from a patch. If tested before a stage a tested rider cannot return to his hotel or disappear into a team bus, but must go to the starting area. Out in the open it's pretty darn har to hide needles, bags of transfusion blood, etc.

      It's a pretty weak whack the USADA is taking at Armstrong and I'm quite surprised he's not going into their den and ripping up the accusations in the faces of his accusers. But USADA having his wins, income, medal, etc, all yanked for all competitions from 1998 on based upon the word of people, but no hard evidence is something I expected Lance could have overturned in court ... probably in a couple more years. Which makes much of this "tired of fighting, not going to fight anymore" understandable.

      As pointed out in various sources, every time he gets one accuser discredited another one pops up in a never ending game of whack-a-mole. He's chosing to ignore USADA, which is probably the only defence he saw at some point. His attorneys served a letter to USADA stating he doesn't accept their findings. Wait to see what the UCI has to say.

      I'm not sure what you're talking about. EPO isn't some temporary stimulant, it's a drug that increases the production of red blood cells, he could take it weeks, or even months before the competition and still get the benefit, I don't think you intended for him to have a personal cameraman 24/7.

      As for no hard evidence, drug tests are only one piece of evidence, and it's well known that they can be fooled. Fortunately the USADA has a ton of circumstantial evidence including a lot of eye witnesses who were associated with Armstrong's team, I think it would be an easy case to make in criminal court.

      As for stripping all of Armstrong's results. Do you know the name of the guys who would have won those tours if Armstrong and those other guys didn't cheat? The guys who were incredibly talented and hard working, but were too ethical to cheat? No? Well neither do I. We'll probably never know who those guys were and even with this action by the USADA Armstrong will still be rich and famous, while these other guys who probably deserved it more, will remain unknown, probably not even knowing that they should have been the real winner.

      --
      I stole this Sig
    35. Re:Drug test the final standard? by RazorSharp · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The problem, as I understand it, is that the witnesses had compelling reasons to make their testimonies whether they were true or not. They themselves had been caught through the drug tests and were offered leniency for testifying against Armstrong.

      Faced with threats of perjury, former teammates caved. Tyler Hamilton (who had passed many doping tests before failing one at the end of his career), Floyd Landis and others reportedly testified. They admitted they’d been doping all along. The U.S. attorney ultimately declined to press charges, but USADA took the evidence and issued its own charges. Because the standard in these cases is merely “comfortable satisfaction,” not “beyond reasonable doubt,” there was no reasonable doubt that Armstrong was doomed.

      http://www.wired.com/playbook/2012/08/lance-armstrong-doping-allegations/

      To me, it doesn't matter if they're telling the truth or not. The fact that the investigative process can compel them to lie makes their testimony worthless. A human witness is hardly a reliable thing. Neither are drug tests, but at least they're objective (whether there's a false positive/negative or not). The method of this investigation is all too similar to McCarthy's witch hunt. I'm not saying Armstrong is innocent, but I think he's owed the assumption until there's concrete evidence. I wouldn't call his accusers liars, but I do recognize their obvious conflict of interests.

      As a sports fan, it saddens me to say this, but advancements in medical science may ruin sports. It's getting harder and harder to figure out where to draw the line between what type of physical enhancements are legitimate and which one's aren't. Which ones should be and shouldn't be. This is probably why I like collegiate sports so much better than professional ones. With college teams, one gets the sense that they're watching actual people.

      --
      "From the depths of my skeptical and rationalist soul, I ask the Lord to protect me from California touchie-feeliedom."
    36. Re:Drug test the final standard? by quantaman · · Score: 2

      The tests were good enough to catch many many many other cyclists. Including the greatest cyclist ever, Edy Merckx back in the 60s.

      Notice how whenever they catch one of these athletes it turns out the doping has been going on for years before? That tells me that catching someone is really hard, harder for someone who has the resources to afford better medical expertise to beat the tests.

      Even if you follow their testimony to conclude he cheated...so did literally everybody else. The vast numbers of actual drug test fails speak to that clearly.

      So in the end, he was perhaps better at hiding the cheating, but he was still massively better at actual cycling than any other cyclist at the time who was also very likely cheating as well.

      How many riders were doping? How good was their doping program, how much did it help them? How much did it help him? Who was the best clean cyclist? We guess is that Armstrong was the best, or one of the best cyclists, with or without drugs. But combining his superior resources to get a better doping program, and less competition from the clean athletes, that took him from a top rider to a perennial winner, and from slightly famous to A-list celebrity.

      --
      I stole this Sig
    37. Re:Drug test the final standard? by Martin+Blank · · Score: 2

      I heard on the radio this morning that pretty much every cycling agency/league/whatever is keeping silent or simply withholding judgment pending the release of USADA's information. Usually, when one agency issues a decision like this, the others all pile on. But according to one report, USADA is the least-liked agency in the world in part because its practices are widely seen as unfair.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    38. Re:Drug test the final standard? by runningduck · · Score: 2

      It should also be pointed out that cyclists are typically not very wealthy. The longer this goes on the more people close to Armstrong will be dragged into an unaffordable and life wrecking ordeal. It is one thing to say that Lance can afford to pay for his defense. However, it would be inappropriate for him to fund the defense of other. It is a really bad situation all the way around.

      --
      -rd
    39. Re:Drug test the final standard? by Surt · · Score: 3, Funny

      I have bad news for you about college sports.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    40. Re:Drug test the final standard? by chilvence · · Score: 2

      Oh stop that society, youre ruining your sunday trousers!

    41. Re:Drug test the final standard? by Sean+Hederman · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Wow. Did you read the same article I did? It was a devastating destruction of the mythologies built up around Armstrong to explain his performance, coupled with details of the scientific evidence showing how later tests found EPO in Armstrongs B samples. Didn't see any hand waving, unless you're misinterpreting his explanation of how the blood tests work.

    42. Re:Drug test the final standard? by quantaman · · Score: 2

      Your kidding right? You don't know who Alex Zülle, Jan Ullric (2ns place to Lance THREE times), Joseba Beloki , Andreas Klöden and Ivan Basso are?

      Cycling fans do, that is for sure.

      I had to look up the spellings, but I know all those guys and would kill to meet any of them.

      Oh, and all of them were busted at one point or other for doping, in the Festina Raid, Operación Puerto, or other tests.

      You cheat, you test positive or get caught in a raid with your name on a bag of blood for doping.

      http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2012/08/24/lance_armstrong_doping_scandal_everyone_was_chating_from_1999_to_2005_.html

      Everyone that the USADA says will testify against him has a charge against them that the will get mitigation for, or has written a book they made money on.

      If they had some hard evidence, and the testimony, fine. Otherwise, it is just a case of rolling lieutenants to get the Capo by making them immune to criminal prosecution.

      Note my exact comment
      "Do you know the name of the guys who would have won those tours if Armstrong and those other guys didn't cheat? The guys who were incredibly talented and hard working, but were too ethical to cheat? No? Well neither do I. We'll probably never know who those guys were and even with this action by the USADA Armstrong will still be rich and famous, while these other guys who probably deserved it more, will remain unknown, probably not even knowing that they should have been the real winner."

      The idea is that we don't know, and probably never will know, who the best clean rider was, how far down the rankings they finished, and whether they would have won if everyone else competed fair. That's the legacy of Armstrong and those others, we can't trust the exceptional athletes, and the clean ones, who puts in the extra work to succeed fairly, end up just as tainted as the cheaters. Moreso, even if they definitely prove that Armstrong cheated, from his perspective it was still worth it! He still has his (tainted) fame and riches.

      Right now Armstrong shows the young cyclists that even the big hero cheats, and if they want to win they have to cheat too, this culture of doping destroys sport and turns otherwise good people into cheaters. I don't mind handing out some deals to take that hero down a few notches and give people a reason to stay clean.

      --
      I stole this Sig
    43. Re:Drug test the final standard? by qeveren · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Honestly, I've always wanted to see someone start up an alternative Anything-Goes Olympics to draw those in mainstream sports who like augmenting themselves so into a venue where that would be accepted, even encouraged. The Baseline League can then go about finding the limits of pure human performance, and the Advanced League spurs immediate massive gains in the science of human augmentation. It's win-win!

      --
      Don't just stand there, get that other dog!
    44. Re:Drug test the final standard? by bitingduck · · Score: 2

      No he didn't. DOPING is the taking something because it's a masking agent for a, wait for it, 'performance enchancing drug. So that it doesn't look like you've taken the enhancing drug.

      I've spent a lot of time around elite cyclists (and even know a few who have been popped) and have never heard the word doping used the way you describe. It's primarily used to refer to use of PEDs, though the masking agents themselves are enough to get you the boot. WADA and USADA have that D in their names not because they're out to stop the use of masking agents, but because they're out to stop the use of PEDs (the dope they're referring to with the D).

  3. Lies by amiga3D · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The sworn statements of people caught doping is of virtually no value at all. Once caught they'll swear to any thing you want them to. They are allready proven liars so why even bother with them?

    1. Re:Lies by Vegan+Cyclist · · Score: 2

      There is value if 10 former dopers all tell a similar story about Lance, yet no evidence of them corroborating to make that story...

  4. Pee in a cup? by Seumas · · Score: 2, Insightful

    For fuck's sake. You're the Washington Post. Can we not talk like we're five years old? Surely there's some other phrase -- if you think super hard -- than "pee in a cup" that a professional journalist for a big-time publication can use?

  5. Witch hunt? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    From what I've read, this has all the hallmarks of a witch hunt from a bunch of out-of-control bureaucrats. I can't blame Armstrong for giving up. He's been through the grinder.

  6. Time for a car anology by avandesande · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Suppose after you have been to the bar you are pulled over and pass a breathalyser test and the cop sends you on your way. A week later one of your friends gets busted for dui and testifies that you drank too much the previous week causing the loss of your license.

    --
    love is just extroverted narcissism
    1. Re:Time for a car anology by Anubis+IV · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There's no proof you were drinking a week ago, so you would not lose your license.

      That's the point he's trying to make. If there's no proof, you shouldn't be punished based solely on testimony that is contradicted by the evidence available, yet, in this case, someone is being punished based on testimony, despite the evidence currently indicating something contrary to that testimony.

  7. If we're not for science, what are we for. by Mysticalfruit · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Lance has claimed consistently that he has not doped. Every drug test he's ever taken has come back clean.

    Beyond that the people who are testifying against him, were caught doping and were given the deal of "If rat out Lance, you get 6 months, otherwise it's a lifetime suspension."

    I agree with the last sentiment of the article. If we're just going to ignore the science and go with what people have said, why even drug test.

    I say he's innocent until proven guilty in a court of clear cut science. When one of his many numerous samples finally tests positive for a banned substance, then hang him by his own petard.

    --
    Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
    1. Re:If we're not for science, what are we for. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      How about asking the doctor he paid over $400,000 to what he did to earn that payment? The doctor is synonymous with doping and blood transfusions to hide cheats, mainly from the old eastern bloc.

      When 9 (or more) of Armstrong's team and support staff turn against him giving evidence, there's clearly something to what's going on.

      All the evidence is against him. 9 people have given testimony against him. He has a very costly arrangement with the world's most renowned doping doctor cheat. Armstrong isn't fighting this, he's given up knowing he's finally be trapped in a web of evidence.

    2. Re:If we're not for science, what are we for. by An+Ominous+Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      That doesn't appear to be true. While the first test result for any given sample has come back clean, that potentially just means that he's been ahead of the curve on using doping methods that avoid detection. The USADA reports indicate that some of the re-tests on samples have come back as indicating doping. We'll probably find out more as they take their case to the ICU.

      Of course this whole thing from cycling to baseball to the Olympics is ridiculous. With shades of Futurama, it'll be a relief when we can put all these stories behind us after performance enhancing drugs in all sports are mandatory.

    3. Re:If we're not for science, what are we for. by dadioflex · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You've highlighted the chief problem with detecting sporting cheats. Millions of dollars goes into finding cheats. Billions goes into getting around the tests.

    4. Re:If we're not for science, what are we for. by Volante3192 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      So, for over a decade, the most tested athlete in the history of the world (at the very least, he's got to be in the top 10) in one of the dirtiest sports has managed to fool EVERYONE?

      Do you know how hard it would be to keep a conspiracy like that going? And for what purpose?
      Does Occam's Razor really mean nothing these days?

    5. Re:If we're not for science, what are we for. by dougmc · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Does Occam's Razor really mean nothing these days?

      It never meant anything. It's a *rule of thumb* (especially as it's commonly used), not a rule.

      If you're looking at Occam's Razor for advice on what you should investigate first, then that's a good use of it.

      If you're looking at Occam's Razor to prove that the unlikely/complicated/etc. situation can't be what really happened, you have failed.

  8. Overlooking something important... by Kintanon · · Score: 4, Informative

    The USADA doesn't actually have the authority to strip Lance Armstrong of anything. The UCI is the only organization which can strip his titles from him and according to them the USADA hasn't even come close to meeting the burden of proof they require. So this is all just a giant smoke and mirrors act by the USADA. Armstrong has stopped fighting them because their accusations are irrelevant to him.

    --
    Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji
    1. Re:Overlooking something important... by Vegan+Cyclist · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Not quite. WADA (World Anti-Doping Agency) is standing behind USADA's decision, and they do have much more authority. The IOC (International Olympic Committee) is one such body that will be influenced, and any body under the IOC will likely have to play along - and thus i believe the UCI (International Cycling Union).

      Also, USADA's case *is* being continued - next up is Lance's long-time team manager Johan Bruyneel, who will likely make a similar decision (although will be surprising to see him leave the cycling world.) Then, i believe the USADA will provide the IOC and UCI with their findings, and THEN we'll see Lance's titles stripped from him. Given that these bodies all have to play nice, i would be very surprised if the UCI challenged the findings. Yes, it will implicate themselves, but they're pretty much damned either way as i see it..if their real goal is to eliminate doping from cycling, then they'll have to shape up. I think the evidence is pretty strong that there has been corruption, and they won't be able to hide it much longer...

      That's my two cents. =)

  9. So let's get a trial and get the evidence by PastaAnta · · Score: 2

    There has been no trial, no due process,

    By giving up, Lance Armstron has ensured we will never get a trial and never be presented with the facts, evidence and witness testimonies - and the myth(?) of Lance Armstrong as a clean cyclist will live on.

    Why the hell did he do that ?! (To keep the myth alive?)

  10. Re:He never failed a drug test? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    99 tour de france

    That was corticosteroid ass-cream for saddle sores that was cleared with TDF before he used it then he tested "positive" for using the cream. Yeah, wow, shocker!

    01 tour de suiss

    He said, he said, he said? Need some evidence except "whisperings"

    USADA is claiming Lance's blood looked to have EPO/blood transfusions in 2009 & 2010

    And the evidence is where?? Oh yes, secret, to be revealed. I'll wait for evidence before I would start accusing someone of anything.

    Right now this all looks like that JFK assassination conspiracy theory with a grassy knoll and the military industrial complex. Just because someone keeps repeating it, does not make it true.

    If UCI and TDF look at the USADA evidence and deem it credible, that would be one thing. But for now, it is USADA vs. UCI. USADA has no jurisdiction to strip him of anything related to TDF. Not without evidence and hand waving jailhouse snitches ain't it.

    Frankly, whom are the so called accusers? The dopers like Landis. Reminds me of witch trials.

    Anyway, some people like Brunei (Lance's former team coach?) will attempt to go through the "process" and so USADA will need to provide some proof. But if this process is where circumstantial testimony is enough, then sorry, it is stacked.

  11. Blood transfusions aren't drugs by AK+Marc · · Score: 2

    There exists no urine test that could detect transfusions. Why take witnesses over tests? Because the tests don't detect all, and the goal is to find cheats. Why lock your doors if you have an alarm? You use both and the most strict wins. Same with tests. I don't know whether he did anything. He's smart enough to know what can and can't be detected. And he may have cheated in an undetectable manner. Or maybe he is so good because he has naturally high platelet counts (most uber athletes got there because of "natural gifts" that the rest of us don't have).

    Who cares, it's all about a sport anyway. If it's such an issue, they should shut down all cycling events until they can detect whatever doping he is accused of.

  12. Surely not a witch hunt by Sez+Zero · · Score: 2

    Of all the cyclists and team mates Lance Armstrong has had on all those teams covered by the USADA's letter and "testimony" that it was rampant on each of those cycling teams surely there must dozen several, or even dozens, of other riders similarly being sanctioned?

    Nope, just Armstrong.

    1. Re:Surely not a witch hunt by dwye · · Score: 2

      Nope, just Armstrong.

      And the people testifying against him. Of course, by testifying, their suspensions are for months, not life, and their records are left as they were, but that could not possibly affect their testimony.

  13. Too bad this isn't even private justice by timothy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Says Wikipedia: USADA is "is taxpayer-funded non-profit organization."

    So, just like Congress spending time on baseball persecutions, this is tax money being spent on enforcing the rules in non-essential, voluntary, recreational activities -- even it's not an official government bureaucracy, funding means control, so this is essentially a gov't body.

    Personally, I have no problem with any given organization (for Scrabble, for competitive waiting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Op39GUkQhmc, for concrete canoes -- http://concretecanoe.org/, for particular religious beliefs http://www.lds.org/?lang=eng ...) setting whatever rules they want, so long as the people involved choose to accept it, or choose to challenge it, etc, so long as there's no coercion. If you don't like the big chili competition in Terlingua (as some didn't), you can break off and start *another* big chili competition in Terlingua (and some people did: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terlingua,_Texas). If the govt's going to get involved, it should be a matter of public safety, preventing fraud, etc. .

    By contrast, I'm offended that so much as a single penny of taxpayer money went toward this.

    --
    jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
  14. Re:Why does this matter? by clodney · · Score: 2

    Wait a minute. So, let's say for a moment that he did some stuff like his own blood transfusion and such.

    1) If everyone does this, and when done professionally it is not dangerous, and it's not detectable by any real means, then why is that exactly wrong?

    You make very valid points about where training/equipment crosses the line into cheating, but the part about "when done professionally it is not dangerous" is incorrect. A number of pro cyclists have died from heart issues, and there is at least some belief that EPO use is implicated. I don't know how credible the allegations are regarding EPO, but certainly overuse of steroids comes with very serious side effects.

  15. Re:Why does this matter? by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 2

    My argument is that why is taking 'extra' Human Growth Hormone banned, yet NFL kick returns can suck on pure oxygen right on the sidelines after a long run so they can play again sooner?

    Both are exactly the same thing...

    --
    People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
  16. USADA is a PITA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    USADA is a pain in the ass! For the past 6 years I have been competing in sailing trying to qualify for the Paralympics. For the past 6 years, I had to tell USADA where I was going to be every day. They would randomly show up an any time of any day and if you were not where they could find you within an hour, you got a missed test. They won't try to locate you via phone. A couple missed tests equals a doping violation.

    When they show up, it doesn't what you are doing, you have to stop everything and they supervise you giving your urine sample into a pair of specially designed tamper proof and labeled jars. They have also started taking blood, but I have not had that experience yet.

    When an athlete you have to be paranoid about everything you eat. Many juices and energy drinks contain stimulants that are prohibited. That means no red bull, monster, some of the vitamin waters, some mixed juices, etc. If you have a cold you can't take pseudoephed. Vitamins and dietary supplements are extremely risky because something as trivial as vitamin c could be contaminated with a prohibited substance if it was made in the same factory.

    Anyone that has put up with USADA/WADA for years, not missed tests, and passed all tests is clean and that should be the final word. Fuck these witnesses, USADA, WADA, and leave the man alone.

  17. Re:Rumor and Inuendo by Volante3192 · · Score: 2

    Occam's Razor is so dull these days, using it makes hair grow back...

  18. Evidence of taking drugs must be the standard by Simon+Brooke · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The problem with drugging in sport is that the teams with the most money hire the pharmacists and doctors (like Fuentes and Ferrari) who develop cutting edge drug regimes which are beyond the current limits of drug testing. Drug testing inevitably develops behind the science of doping - testing for some new substance can only be initiated once it becomes known that that substance is being used for doping, and inevitably there is a lag time during which a reliable and safe test is developed.

    Consequently the drug tests cannot be the 'gold standard' for evaluating whether or not someone has doped. Witness testimony is what we rely on in far more serious cases, like murder for example, and it seems perfectly reasonable to assert that if enough credible people are prepared to testify on oath that they personally witnessed Armstrong doping, then he was doping, whatever the drug tests say.

    There's circumstantial evidence, too. One thing which had me convinced Armstrong was doping back as early as 2004 were his rages - he was aggressive and prone to anger far outside the normal range of human behaviour. But since then we've seen so many of his team mates and ex-team mates implicated - Tyler Hamilton, Floyd Landis and several others have been convicted, while George Hincapie agreed to give evidence against Armstrong in return for not being prosecuted. It simply isn't credible that everyone on the team was doping except the strongest, fastest man in the team.

    There's some good news in all this. This years leading riders were about 4% down on power output - Lance Armstrong in 2005 was outputting 6.8 watts per kilogram, whereas Bradley Wiggins, this year's winner, was capable of just 6.57. Of course, the fact that power is down - across the whole peloton, not just the leaders - doesn't prove that today's riders are not doping, but clearly something has changed, and dope is one thing that may have changed.

    Of course you can argue, and some people have, that if you can't reliably test for dope then the sensible thing to do is to allow all athletes to take whatever drugs they want, because if they're all doping then that's fair. But many of these drugs are dangerous - there were a rash of deaths from heart attacks of very young cyclists in Holland and Belgium in the early 2000s associated with apparent use of EPO, for example - and many athletes are young and under great pressure to succeed. We do have to clean up cycling (and other sports, too, of course, but I'm no expert on other sports) or else we will see a lot more kids with great potential killed to no purpose. I believe that we are succeeding.

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    I'm old enough to remember when discussions on Slashdot were well informed.
  19. Re:USADA is full of horse urine by cpu6502 · · Score: 2

    Sports agencies are often full of a LOT more than urine. Like BS. There was the case of a gymnast who lost her gold medal in 2000 because she took some cold pills (as instructed by her coach), and the agency in charge said that was not allowed. Then 2 years later they said the pills are a legal substance because they have zero affect on athletic performance.

    So if the pills have zero affect on performance, shouldn't this young woman get her gold medal back? That means she won the medal through her own great skills, but the Gymanastic Agency steadfastly refuses. That would mean admitting they were wrong, and they'd rather hold up the view that they are flawless godlike people & the athlete deserves to be punished!!! (Because we say so.)

    It seems that USADA has the same "godlike" view of themselves. They accused Armstrong of guilt, and rather than admit they can't prove it, they will cover their asses and do whatever it takes to destroy the man, even if it takes years-and-years of darkroom interrogations. The athlete deserves to be punished!!! (Because we say so.)

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    My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
  20. Removing his titles might be pointless by Milharis · · Score: 3, Insightful

    On television tonight, they showed a picture about the 2000 Tour de France (IIRC) with the first ten cyclists.
    All of them (if we count Armstong) had been tested positive to one thing or another, so the title would go to the eleventh guy. He's not positive because he probably hasn't been tested as much.
    Add to that that if I were to take the same drugs they did, I'd still not be able to compete with them (without doping) by a huge margin.

    So regardless of whether he took drugs or not, he still arguably was the best at that time.

  21. The thing that confuses me. by guidryp · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The Lance rats that we know of were all caught by failing drug tests.

    They then claimed they saw Lance cheat (which benefits them by selling their stories, getting lighter sentences) or even that he told them how to do it and encouraged them.

    Now the confusing part is if they were so intimate with details of Lances cheating, how come he was so much better at it, that despite being tested more than any of them, he was never caught by a drug test like they were.

    Either way this is sad story. Either Lance cheated, or a bunch of known cheaters were pulled together by a power tripping bureaucrat on a witch hunt.
    Sucks either way.

    What next, are they having a similar witch hunt for Indurain and his 5 wins. Similar allegations swirled around him.

  22. Infinite Regress by sixoseven · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The statute of limitations on sport should be the season. If you cannot determine by the end of the season who is the legitimate champion of the season, then don't give an award. If you cannot determine, by the end of a game, if all the rules of the game were followed, then declare the competition null and void. You cannot have a referee that has infinite time to make a judgment, this is the very opposite of what qualifies a competent judge.

    I am convinced that Armstrong is being unfairly persecuted, and furthermore that every sport that has doping rules should ensure that they are immediately enforceable. If Armstrong or anyone else outsmarted the USADA, then too bad. My bias is that this agency is doing to its sport what boxing governing bodies did to theirs which is to draw into profound relief its inability to hold the respect and admiration of its chartered participants. Any certification that is not consistently and immediately verifiable loses its credibility.

    My guess is that there is some squirrelly language in the contract that allows what is essentially no statute of limitations on allegations and does other stuff that wouldn't stand in a court of law.

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    fault-tolerant
  23. A few further details on cycling by daemonenwind · · Score: 2

    First, most cyclists ride in several races during the year. By the time they get to the Tour de France, they've already ridden in the Giro and have had only a few weeks to rest ahead of the Tour. And, they may have ridden in some events in between.

    Lance rides the Tour de France. That's it. So he's fresh in a way the rest of the field isn't, and probably financially can't afford to be.

    Second, Lance Armstrong is a notorious trainer. You don't have to look far to find stories of how Lance pushed his teammates to train when they thought they didn't have to, or to find Lance training when others were taking time off for little things like Christmas morning.

    Third, and maybe most importantly, Lance Armstrong is an arrogant asshole. No, really. He taunts other riders to try to keep up - and they can't. He rubs in every victory, calls out every weakness, and talks trash mercilessly. On top of all that, he's rich from endorsements and gets to be the face of Cycling, for the huge achievement of riding in just one damn race per year.

    There are plenty of guys who'd stick it to Lance just because they can.

    To put this all in Slashdot terms, let's say you were pretty good at Starcraft. You can beat everyone in your school without too much trouble.
    Then, one day, you get to play Starcraft against a professional from Korea. Of course, he rips you up like kleenex and just laughs at you. So you find a hack to start out with extra resources and units so you can teach him a lesson. The Korean still dominates you. So, since you're cheating and you know you're good, he's got to be hacking. He just has to be. Right?

    So you get someone to watch the computer screen over his shoulder. You monitor network traffic. You upgrade your computer for an extra few FPS. But nothing says he's doing anything fishy. Still, you stick by calling him a hacker - there's just no way he could beat you so easily without cheating too, right?

    Right?

  24. Re:Why does this matter? by ZeroSumHappiness · · Score: 3, Informative

    I don't think you quite understand the A/B testing system. You produce two samples at the same time, an A sample and a B sample. The A sample is put through a quick and crude test that should have a high false positive rate and a low false negative rate. If the A sample comes up positive then the B sample is put through a much more thorough (expensive) test that should have both a low false positive and false negative rate. Only if the B sample fails is it considered a "failed" test because the B sample is the only one that "proves" (within an accuracy threshold) you were doping. The A sample only narrows the field.

  25. Re:Why does this matter? by rickb928 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    'Blood doping', that is, transfusing stored blood during a multi-day race such as leTour, is indeed cheating. It is usually packed cells, and is intended to boost hemoglobin and therefore oxygen carrying capacity. It overcomes your physiology, training, exertion, and recovery characteristics.

    Armstrong is reputed to be an exceptional physical specimem. with extraordinary capacity for work. This is what bicyclists train for, to both be able to do the maximum amount of work without injury and with good recovery, to be able to do so on a regular basis, and to recover consistently so they can, in the case of leTour, do it for almost a month.

    Over exertion results in damage from lactic acid, which takes more time to recover from than the mere exertion of racing. One of the reasons you will see a rider win a stage, and the next day fall to the back. And Amrstrong is reputed to be able to do more, more consistently, than virtually all other riders.

    So other riders, not just because they are competing with Armstrong but also others, will try and gain an advantage in work output and recovery, as those are key to winning leTour. Among the strategies currently in vogue are doping to improve blood characteristics, testosterone enhancements to promote muscle growth and performance, and respiratory enhancements to improve oxygen intake.

    I quit racing in the 70s due to my asthma. I would be fighting a constant battle with the testers if I ever got to the level of competition where that was an issue, and i had aspirations to do so. A middle-of-the-pack rider warned me I would be in trouble, and having been diagnosed as an adult would make it worse. today, up to 80% of the riders in UCI events have doctors' notes diagnosign them as asthmatics, and they skirt the dosage limits for Albuterol among other things with a keen eye. Pathetic to think that successful bicycle racers are predisposed to be asthmatics. This sort of manipulation also affects other sports, such as biathalon and other shooting events. Sad, but here we are. ps - I know know I would never have made it in racing, I was young and stupid, but to this day I love climbing a mountain on a bike. The mountain cannot win. It just cannot. If you don't have to rind another 40 miles after, it is just the will to do it.

    Armstrong has been accused virtually all of his career of doping, and at this pojtn all we have are other guilty riders testifying that they saw him do so. Not a few of whom think they could be winners if not for Armstrong. And most of which are coerced into testimony.

    Bicycling is rife with doping, but the USADA has lost all credibility with this pursuit of Armstrong. They can, with the standards they are usign now, disqualify any rider. They don't need results, only questionable accusations and secret results. A sad end to a brilliant career. You would not want your dog treated like this.

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    deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
  26. You don't know what you're saying. by mosb1000 · · Score: 2

    Anyone else ever been in a situation where you knew you were right, had the evidence mostly on your side, and give up? Yeah, me neither.

    That reminds me of the time they kicked me out of church for political reasons. I knew that if I was given a fair hearing I'd be fine, but I also knew I would never get one.

  27. He didn't use a drug. by jcphil · · Score: 2

    You need to be clear on what he was charged with. The agency is saying he got transfusions of oxygen-doped blood before races. Since oxygen is not a "drug" there isn't a specific test that can say whether it's present in abnormally high levels. The ADA will tell you this frankly. But if that's what Armstrong did, it was real genius. Oxygen-enriched blood will supercharge any athlete. And oxygen is not a foreign substance.

  28. I don't know who to believe by BMOC · · Score: 4, Insightful

    1) Assume Lance cheated
    - How wasn't he caught in the act for so long?
    - How can all the technological innovation that went into his cycling be ignored? The wind-tunnel testing, the water-tank-in-frame, the unique bike designs, those all were serious efforts that AFAIK were unique, why spend that effort if you're already doping?
    - How were others not able to cheat as well as he did?
    - How was he not caught cheating in 2009 when he placed 3rd after not racing for 2 years? Wouldn't he be expected to be a total doper taking a standing that high after being retired for so long?
    - How can the fact that he trained for only 1 race each year, the Tour de France, be ignored as explaining his stellar performance? Most other competition would do more racing per year, Lance focused like a laser beam on the Tour de France. How can this not help explain his insane performances?
    - Lance packed his team with certifiably world-class climbers to set pace for him and run strategy on the large parts of big climbs. Other squads did not. Can't this help explain it?

    2) Assume lance did not cheat
    - Why are so many people out to discredit him? How big of an a-hole must Lance be to have this many people willing to take him down by lying?
    - Why not fight these charges to the last?
    - Why wasn't Lance more open in his Tours? The technology existed during his run to simply put Lance on camera 24-hours-a-day for the world to see he wasn't cheating. Why not do this, especially in 2009 when he took 3rd?
    - How was Lance so good at simply laying the hammer down at the ends of big climbing stages? Is he just a freak of nature? Were his teammates really capable of simply relieving all the stress of keeping in the pack long enough for him to go balls out at the end?
    - Why were later tests on his samples so dodgy? What was the motivation in even testing them?

    --
    I swear they give me mod points to shut me up.
    1. Re:I don't know who to believe by quantaman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      1) Assume Lance cheated

      - How wasn't he caught in the act for so long?

      Most of the cheaters have been doping for years when they get caught, why should he be different?

      - How can all the technological innovation that went into his cycling be ignored? The wind-tunnel testing, the water-tank-in-frame, the unique bike designs, those all were serious efforts that AFAIK were unique, why spend that effort if you're already doping?

      Who's ignoring it? Doping doesn't give you a free win, not when your top competition is doping too. Besides, I'm guessing a lot of that wasn't as unique as you suspect (though maybe he had the resources to do more).

      - How were others not able to cheat as well as he did?

      He had some combination of better doping resources, better training, and better natural gifts.

      - How was he not caught cheating in 2009 when he placed 3rd after not racing for 2 years? Wouldn't he be expected to be a total doper taking a standing that high after being retired for so long?

      Well they do have some apparent positive tests from '09 (I don't know the details) but doping is still hard to detect.

      - How can the fact that he trained for only 1 race each year, the Tour de France, be ignored as explaining his stellar performance? Most other competition would do more racing per year, Lance focused like a laser beam on the Tour de France. How can this not help explain his insane performances?

      It can explain some.

      - Lance packed his team with certifiably world-class climbers to set pace for him and run strategy on the large parts of big climbs. Other squads did not. Can't this help explain it?

      2) Assume lance did not cheat

      It helps, but there's still a lot of evidence of doping.

      - Why are so many people out to discredit him? How big of an a-hole must Lance be to have this many people willing to take him down by lying?

      Why do you think they're lying? There's a lot of circumstantial evidence surrounding Armstrong, and someone who's gotten that much success while cheating is a tempting target.

      - Why not fight these charges to the last?

      Because he doesn't have a good defence in court so he'll fight the PR battle instead.

      - Why wasn't Lance more open in his Tours? The technology existed during his run to simply put Lance on camera 24-hours-a-day for the world to see he wasn't cheating. Why not do this, especially in 2009 when he took 3rd?

      Privacy, because he was cheating, because it wouldn't prove he wasn't cheating (you can take drugs weeks or months before and still benefit).

      - How was Lance so good at simply laying the hammer down at the ends of big climbing stages? Is he just a freak of nature? Were his teammates really capable of simply relieving all the stress of keeping in the pack long enough for him to go balls out at the end?

      All of the above (plus doping).

      - Why were later tests on his samples so dodgy? What was the motivation in even testing them?

      --
      I stole this Sig
  29. "Never failed a test" is misleading in this case by dtjohnson · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Perhaps Armstrong never did fail a 'drug test' but that does not address what he was doing. The USADA says he was doing blood doping which is basically injecting your own red blood cells back into your body to increase the oxygen carrying capacity of your blood. If you have skilled medical professionals helping you with this, as Armstrong allegedly did, it can be undetectable. The USADA also says Armstrong was using the drug EPO but avoided its detection by using smaller amounts administered intravenously, rather than ingested, so that it did not appear in urine samples. The USADA also says that Armstrong was using testosterone injections. Since testosterone is a naturally-occurring hormone, it is expected to be present in the body. The bottom line is that if you have a sleazy medical team that knows how to beat the tests helping you beat those tests, then to say 'I never failed a test' is...disingenous. Armstrong was busted cold because all of those people helping him were forced to turn against him...and he knew it. That's why he stopped fighting the USADA. If he had not, there would have been hearings and they would have been public and the testimony would have destroyed whatever tiny shred of credibility and respect that Armstrong has remaining to him. Finally, Armstrong DID fail a drug test. According to the USADA website: "Additionally, scientific data showed Mr. Armstrong’s use of blood manipulation including EPO or blood transfusions during Mr. Armstrong’s comeback to cycling in the 2009 Tour de France." By 2009, they had finally figured out what Armstrong was doing and what to test for and they had the deadwood on Armstrong. Armstrong was busted...cold.

  30. My thoughts on this by steveha · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Some people claim that all the top cyclists were doping, and if Lance won the Tour de France at all, he must have been doping as well.

    That's possible, but if anyone could have won the tour without cheating, it was Lance Armstrong. He had all the legal advantages he could have: his team always had a bunch of the world's top cyclists, riding for him; his team always had enough money that they could just ride whatever training rides they thought would best help Lance win (many teams have to win races during the season to get the prize money; Lance's team had plenty of money and didn't need to do that). Manufacturers gave him their best new technology to use. Heck, he would go ride the toughest mountain climbs multiple times, trying different angles through the turns and seeing what numbers he got on his power meter. In short, he had every legal edge.

    On the other hand, the Tour de France is possibly the toughest athletic competition in the world, without hyperbole. How many competitions take 21 days to complete, with the athletes working hard for hours and only two rest days? And all that in the July heat in France? My bike mechanic says that he believes all the top riders are cheating, just because with that level of effort, the cheating would give an edge that non-cheaters couldn't touch.

    Also, I'm deeply suspicious of the anti-cheating lab work. When Floyd Landis was accused of doping with synthetic testosterone, all sorts of details came out: the lab knew which sample was his, the lab engaged in shoddy lab work and flawed chain-of-custody procedures, and (worst of all, in my opinion) the same lab tested both the "A" and "B" samples. (Never mind whether a French lab is "out to get" an American athlete... it would be highly embarrassing if the "B" result was negative after all the hoopla over the "A" result. I would have much rather seen that B sample sent to a different lab in Switzerland or something.)

    I'm also troubled by the question of fairness. There is an old saying, "military justice bears the same relationship to justice that military music bears to music." The anti-doping system is stacked against the athlete; once an athlete is accused, bad things happen to the athlete, and there is no hope. Even in the case of Floyd Landis, where a bunch of people worked to help him and submitted all sorts of testimony that (IMHO) invalidated all the evidence against him, he was still found guilty and stripped of his Tour win. (Later he confessed, so maybe he was guilty after all... but I still am not convinced that the evidence used against him should have been used.)

    The USADA proceedings are not legal proceedings in a courtroom environment, and the protections that the accused receive in a courtroom are not there. The head of USADA gets to act as prosecutor, judge, and gets to hand-pick the jury: http://www.opposingviews.com/i/sports/other-sports/usada-s-travis-tygart-plays-prosecutor-jury-and-judge-lance-armstrong-case

    Now for one moment assume that Lance Armstrong is completely innocent. What possible recourse does he have within the USADA system? How can you prove a negative? He was the most-tested man in all of sports and he never failed a test... USADA doesn't care. The witnesses against him have something to gain from denouncing him... USADA doesn't care. How can he prove that he wasn't doping 17 years ago? He doesn't have a witness who was with him 24/7 and can say he never doped. He doesn't have lab results of his own, and if he did he wouldn't be allowed to present them. So if he participates, all he can do is stand there and say "it's not true".

    Some people think that Lance Armstrong is implicitly admitting guilt by not contesting this ruling. But his public statement explicitly says he n

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  31. Testimonies by jonfr · · Score: 2

    It is a fact that people do lie. So in fact, if nothing else. The testimonies in question are dubious if not just plain out lie if they are not supported by any real data. In this case they do not seems to be here.

    It is my opinion that Travis Tygart needs to be investigated for corruption, illegal activity as a CEO of USADA. He also should be suspended at this moment.

    This has also happened before. Strangely enough. The circumstances are similar as they where in the case of Lance Armstrong. Wiki has an small article on it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floyd_Landis

  32. Re:Rumor and Inuendo by Volante3192 · · Score: 2

    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence though, and barring said evidence, the simplest solution still tends to be more likely.

    I mean, which is more likely to be possible?

    A ten-plus year coverup effort assisted by who knows how many people, being able to fool labs in how many different places at how many different times, your life being put under the microscope for years on end
    OR
    Lance Armstrong is a very talented, able cyclist.

    I read a story about the 1992 USA Olympic basketball Dream Team, and one bit I remember was none of them wanted to be the top scorer for a game, because that meant a mandatory drug test (they hated the inconvenience). The more you win, the tighter the scrutiny becomes, and to keep it up for so long in Armstrong's case, I cannot imagine it *not* being leaked earlier (considering it appears practically anyone who's ever been a part of USA cycling was in on it...they're *all* that altruistic?) and to bring it up now reeks of being a witch hunt and farming for publicity.

    But everyone seems to accept the conspiracy, so why not?

  33. Re:There is science... by stony3k · · Score: 2

    It is not scientific because it is a lie. USADA refuses to release the actual test results, or substantiate their claim. And, their statement, if you parse it correctly, is fully consistent with a statement of opinion, and not scientific fact.

    Lance Armstrong has never failed a drug test. That is a fact.

    Had Armstrong contested the charges, USADA would have had to make the results and all of the other allegations against him public. Makes me wonder why he didn't - could it be that it would have placed all of the evidence in the public domain? The federal court of appeals even told him (his lawyers) that he would be have a case after the arbitration if it proved to be flawed, but they could not take action on the assumption that the arbitration process "would be" flawed. Given the fact that Armstrong is known to be such a fighter, it seems strange that he didn't fight through the USADA arbitration. Keep in mind that the World Anti-Doping Agency also agreed with the USADA's actions. And for those point to UCI, keep in mind that the UCI is as guilty as MLB in turning a blind eye to doping in the sport, until it became a complete mess and a whole generation of players is tainted. They both needed to act sooner and harder, instead they helped foster this culture of doping that is still proving hard to eradicate.

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    Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes. - Mahatma Gandhi
  34. Re:"Never failed a test" is misleading in this cas by slimjim8094 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You can absolutely detect blood transfusions. You can notice that the blood cells are different ages by more than the normal amount, and you can see that the density of them (per unit of blood) is way out of whack. If you inject soon enough that that doesn't work, you haven't done yourself any good anyway since you don't produce many new blood cells.

    AFAIK you can't ingest EPO, it has to be injected. And either way, it'd come out the kidneys. There are tests for recombinant (non-natural) EPO, and he's passed them.

    He's down a testicle, and he has approval for testosterone injections to bring him back to baseline.

    This seems like a big hatchet-job against him. I don't care much one way or the other for him, but if they're going to negate years of wins and accomplishment because of the word of some people who've been bribed to testify, with reduced-length bans, then drug testing is a waste of time. Which is the point of the article.

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  35. People lie. drug tests don't lie by Stan92057 · · Score: 2

    People lie. drug tests don't lie they can be fooled but then that would make the test useless and its only useful on honest people. That means DNA testing is totally useless too if someone lies they are an eyewitness. The french hate Lance schooled there best racers and got someone to lie since he keeps passing tests.

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  36. Sue them for defamation by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Which makes much of this "tired of fighting, not going to fight anymore" understandable.

    Actually that is the one part that I cannot understand. His name is going to be dragged through the mud and, assuming he is innocent, his is going to be wrongfully accused and convicted in the court of public opinion. I can understand that he feels the USADA is being unjust and not giving him a fair "trial" but, if that is the case, sue them for defamation in court. Then he and they will both have to compete by the legal standard and not by their own made-up rules and those testifying will be doing so under threat of perjury not whatever penalty the USADA can deal out.

    1. Re:Sue them for defamation by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 2

      Yeah, just keep on fighting in court. After spending the last few years fighting in court.

      Yes but that was on the defensive, by suing for defamation of character (which this clearly is if not true) you go on the attack. The accusers now have something to lose and their only defence is to prove that what they are saying is true. If you win then you will get damages and presumably costs from the defendants. In addition if you start suing, and winning - assuming it is not true - accusers will soon stop showing up.

      There will certainly be risks of both time and money in defending himself this way but letting these accusations stand unchallenged will tarnish his reputation and damage, if not outright destroy, his income. So is the risk any worse that what will happen without it?

  37. Witch Hunt by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 2

    Its the same standard puritans have used for 400 years. Lance is a witch! We saw him do magic nd cast evil spells that made him fly on that abroomstick he calls a bicycle. Drug tests never found any results because he bewitched the testers with frog blood and bat urine.

  38. Absurd by jon3k · · Score: 2

    People can lie, (hundreds of) tests cannot. It's really that simple.

  39. Get your details correct by sjbe · · Score: 2

    First, most cyclists ride in several races during the year. By the time they get to the Tour de France, they've already ridden in the Giro and have had only a few weeks to rest ahead of the Tour. And, they may have ridden in some events in between.Lance rides the Tour de France. That's it. So he's fresh in a way the rest of the field isn't, and probably financially can't afford to be.

    Plenty of riders do not ride the Giro and do ride the Tour. Lance is not unusual in riding only one or the other grand tours. In fact only a minority of riders ride both the Tour and Giro and most of the ones that do aren't racing to win but merely to train. Racing is an extremely effective form of training and most of the peleton races to get into shape.

    Second, Lance Armstrong is a notorious trainer. You don't have to look far to find stories of how Lance pushed his teammates to train when they thought they didn't have to, or to find Lance training when others were taking time off for little things like Christmas morning.

    Everybody in the pro peleton trains hard. Lance is nothing unusual in this regard. Lance is not such an unusual physical specimen by the standards of the pro peleton. Even if he could train slightly harder, many of the athletes he was beating were known dopers. If you seriously are going to argue that hard training beats a doping program at that level of the sport than you have no idea what you are talking about. I have competed at top tier college levels (my coach was a 2 time Olympic champion) which in my sport is only one step below the Olympics and the differences in physical ability at the very top are extremely minor. The winner of the Tour will win by a few minutes in a race that lasts for over 80 hours of riding. Doping easily can boost performance by enough to erase that gain. Literally the majority of the guys who stood on the podium with Lance were at some point busted for doping. (Ricard Virenque, Jan Ulrich, Ivan Basso, etc) All of these guys were extremely talented riders, every bit the match for Lance. Furthermore a huge percentage of Lance's own team has been busted for or admitted to doping while they were riding with or against him. It doesn't matter how hard a trainer you are when everyone else is doping.

    Third, and maybe most importantly, Lance Armstrong is an arrogant asshole. No, really. He taunts other riders to try to keep up - and they can't. He rubs in every victory, calls out every weakness, and talks trash mercilessly. On top of all that, he's rich from endorsements and gets to be the face of Cycling, for the huge achievement of riding in just one damn race per year.

    Nobody, including Lance, rides just one race per year. Armstrong rode in numerous races leading up to the Tour each year including the Amstel Gold, the Dauphine Libere, and many more. Lance was unusual in that he focused on just one race but he was hardly the only guy who did that either. The Tour is the biggest and most prestigious race in cycling. There are about a dozen guys every year for whom the Tour is primary focus of their season every year. Pro riders at that level are paid quite well and while Lance may have done exceptionally well, guys like Jan Ulrich were hardly hurting for cash.