Finnish Bureaucracy Takes Issue With Crowdfunded Textbook

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Finnish Bureaucracy Takes Issue With Crowdfunded Textbook

Posted by timothy on Friday September 7, 2012 @10:30PM from the grey-goo-of-the-big-s-state dept.

linjaaho writes "Senja Larsen, who runs popular Facebook study group Senja teaches you Swedish, collected $14,161 via Kickstarter's crowd funding service. The project caught much media attention in Finland (TV and all major newspapers), since it is the first crowdfunded book project in this country, and among the first Finnish crowdfunded projects. (Previous ones include the movie Iron Sky, the role-playing game Myrskyn Sankarit, and the Wishbone headphone wire manager). Now, after successfully collecting the funds for the book (and after the book has been edited and printed), the National Police Board of Finland has asked Senja to submit a statement [PDF; Finnish] concerning using crowdfunding to finance a project [PDF; Finnish] and the terminology used. It is possible that all the funding collected must be returned. The main problem is that direct translations of terminology at Kickstarter, such as 'bounty' and 'support,' are interpreted to mean collecting money without giving anything back, and this kind of operation requires a permit which can be only given to associations, not to private persons, and it takes long to apply for such permit."

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.gov gone wild by Kergan · 2012-09-07 22:35 · Score: 4, Insightful

Yet another case of bureaucracy gone wild...
1. Re:.gov gone wild by Keruo · 2012-09-07 22:55 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  This legislation has very valid reasons to exist, it prevents money laundering.
  It's not bureucracy gone wild, just common citizen doing things without finding out all required details and getting slapped by government for not getting permits to operate.
  This stuff is taught in elementary school, maybe the author should have paid more attention at Yhteiskuntaoppi classes.
  
  --
  There are no atheists when recovering from tape backup.
2. Re:.gov gone wild by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-07 23:00 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  It's not bureucracy gone wild, just common citizen doing things
  So you're quite happy to live in a world where every time you want to "do things" you have to go scouring through law books and beg the government for permission?
3. Re:.gov gone wild by Jerry+Smith · 2012-09-07 23:15 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  It's not bureucracy gone wild, just common citizen doing things
  So you're quite happy to live in a world where every time you want to "do things" you have to go scouring through law books and beg the government for permission?
  http://www.forbes.com/2010/07/14/world-happiest-countries-lifestyle-realestate-gallup-table.html
  I guess s/he probably is. And since his/her gouvernment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index is considered pretty decent, Kickstarter might rethink some of the terms and conditions. They could be misinterpreted, after all.
  
  --
  All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.
4. Re:.gov gone wild by Trepidity · 2012-09-07 23:48 · Score: 2
  
  Unlike in the U.S., which has a huge mess of laws nobody knows about from dozens of agencies and levels of government, in the Nordic countries the legal system is actually fairly streamlined, and most citizens are aware of their rights and obligations under the law. One reason you don't see the jails as full of people as in the USA.
  
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  10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
5. Re:.gov gone wild by ewanm89 · 2012-09-07 23:52 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Kickstarter is operating under US law in terms of monetary transfers, from the Kickstarter FAQ:
  To be eligible to start a Kickstarter project, you need to satisfy the requirements of Amazon Payments:
  —You are 18 years of age or older.
  —You are a permanent US resident with a Social Security Number (or EIN).
  —You have a US address, US bank account, and US state-issued ID (driver’s license).
  —You have a major US credit or debit card.
6. Re:.gov gone wild by zyzko · 2012-09-07 23:55 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Actually, in this case the defense of Senja Larsen is that she is doing business, not collecting money without giving anything back - which is easier in Finland than getting a permit for asking money for "nothing" or a "good cause".
  The law is considered by many associations a relic and it can be abused - for an example Electronic Frontier Finland was sued by the state because their website stated that according to their rules they can receive donations and there was an account number visible. State lost - but they "had to prosecute" because someone anonymously demanded so.
  On the other hand the law:
  - Prevents money laundering.
  - Makes it easier to shut down shady operations which for an example state to collect money for cancer kids and the money goes actually to Thailand vacations of a few "charitable persons" and the kids get two used playstations - at least there is some oversight on who can publicly collect money.
7. Re:.gov gone wild by asdf7890 · 2012-09-07 23:57 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  It's not bureucracy gone wild, just common citizen doing things
  So you're quite happy to live in a world where every time you want to "do things" you have to go scouring through law books and beg the government for permission?
  And I suppose you are happy living in a world where kids can't have decent chemistry sets because TERRORISM!!1!, and where it is difficult to get through an airport with a laptop because TERRORISTS!!!, in fact where you have to be intimately rubbed down by the TSA in said airport because TERROR!!!!!!!, and so on and so forth.
  
  America: the land of the brainwashed-into-thinking-they-are-more-free-than-others.
8. Re:.gov gone wild by Charliemopps · 2012-09-08 00:31 · Score: 2
  
  You miss the point, there is no permit he can get. He'd have to form a business or organization. As always government regulation adds cost, complexity and may even kill this project. All for the noble purpose of preventing money laundering? Which this is clearly not. But we can't let common sense intervene.
9. Re:.gov gone wild by cheekyjohnson · 2012-09-08 01:13 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  How do you know he doesn't oppose both?
  
  --
  Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
10. Re:.gov gone wild by Skuld-Chan · 2012-09-08 01:14 · Score: 2
  
  The one to be on the ballot in every state when running for president of the united states.
11. Re:.gov gone wild by Tore+S+B · 2012-09-08 03:49 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  The person is operating a business - admittedly, on non-standard terms - but she is running a business. That does include a requirement to understand and comply with the basic laws of the land. And she has done it in a way which runs afoul of some laws that are there for good reasons but which are not impossible to get around.
  It's bureaucracy doing exactly what it is supposed to do: Ensuring a functional market by regulating it competently.
  
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  toresbe
12. Re:.gov gone wild by Kjella · 2012-09-08 04:06 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  So you're quite happy to live in a world where every time you want to "do things" you have to go scouring through law books and beg the government for permission?
  In a lot of cases where I'd call it preemptive crime prevention, yes. For example if you pretend to be a doctor but don't have a license to practice medicine, we don't have to wait for an actual malpractice case. You are already breaking the law just by trying. If you operate a restaurant I don't mind that you have to have a permit so that health inspectors both know you exist and have a right to investigate your facilities before you put people in the hospital. If you pretend to operate a charity, I don't mind that you need a permit that requires documentation that the money goes where you say it's going and is not a fraud. I don't mind that the government must approval of your rental units before there is a house fire where someone doesn't get out because there's no fire exit and you're charged with manslaughter.
  A permit is not something the government should hand or not hand out on a whim, it should have a clearly defined list of requirements and those who fulfill the requirements should get a permit. Of course you could say that the "free market" should fix this, that people would simply stop going to unsanitary restaurants but the practical experience has been that the market hasn't fixed this so instead of quoting dogma we found a solution that did. Sure you can have too much bureaucracy as well, but a lot of the time the businesses trying to fly "under the radar" without a permit do so because they are breaking a lot of other laws and regulations that are there for a reason. If I just pick a place to eat at random I don't expect great food, but I do expect that it's fit for human consumption. It's really not too much to ask.
  
  --
  Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
13. Re:.gov gone wild by king+neckbeard · 2012-09-08 04:06 · Score: 2
  
  So, because the countries are nice in many respects, all of their policies are better than those of other countries?
  
  --
  This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
14. Re:.gov gone wild by Jerry+Smith · 2012-09-08 04:15 · Score: 2
  
  So, because the countries are nice in many respects, all of their policies are better than those of other countries?
  The accusation was that the government was teh sux0r because of the bureaucracy. My addition was that the government seems to do quite well, despite the bureaucracy/because of the bureaucracy.
  I hope that answered your question.
  
  --
  All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.
15. Re:.gov gone wild by Javit · 2012-09-08 04:30 · Score: 2
  
  That doesn't address the issue. Obviously. Unless you'd consider an on-average "happy" constituency and credible government a defense of any possible policy. But I suppose it's to be expected; your planet probably doesn't have propagandized citizenries and disenfranchised minorities.
  
  --
  Support NRA, America's oldest civil rights group.
16. Re:.gov gone wild by Aryden · 2012-09-08 07:16 · Score: 2
  
  Planning a terrorist attack, legal
  Wrong, it's conspiracy to commit an act of terror.
17. Re:.gov gone wild by AK+Marc · 2012-09-08 07:35 · Score: 2
  
  Nope. I moved out of the US (for obvious reasons, watch either of the conventions for the obvious reasons if you are obtuse). I can't get money out of the US without showing up in person at a bank. Period. There are a number of foreign exchange and gambling sites that will let you shop/play from a number of countries. But if you fund your account with USD from a US bank, you may not withdraw from a foreign country. I'm not saying all, but that's how it was for all I saw when I looked.
  
  I ended up sending a few hundred thousand dollars to a relative's bank account, hoping they'd send it along to me. After a handling fee of $250,000 was removed, I got about 70% of the rest sent acccording to my wishes (granted the handling fee was to another relative who had a claim against me for my father screwing up his will, so not pure theft, but settling a debt that was in dispute, now that they have the money, I can only dispute it by filing charges against relatives, and they know I won't, so it's lost forever, and the 30% is sitting in a bank account in the US that is in my name, even if I can't get at the money easily). The "solution" would have been to fly back to the US, get it in cash, declare the cash at all of my flight points back, and hope it wasn't confiscated by the government without reason or hearing.
  
  --
  Learn to love Alaska
18. Re:.gov gone wild by Luckyo · 2012-09-08 10:04 · Score: 2
  
  Whoever wrote this is either massively misinformed, or intentionally lying. It's very easy to simply form a ry (rekiströity yhdistys - registered organisation) and then apply for all necessary permits in this ry's name.
  Seriously, this is taught here in 9th class of mandatory school. It's not rocket science. The person in question failed HARD at basics, and whoever wrote the article is basically whining "this country with different approach from mine is bad". Which as pointed above, is factually false just from looking at numbers.
19. Re:.gov gone wild by Luckyo · 2012-09-08 17:03 · Score: 2
  
  Because otherwise your friendly neighbourhood drug seller/tax evader could pretend to be doing good for the community and launder his money, as a result causing significant damage to people who actually do want to do good for the community, as well as the rest of the community.
  Granted your "I won't listen to your dumb arguments you pinko commies" attitude shows that you don't care, and probably don't know that you don't have to "take up collection" for someone dying from cancer around here. He/she will be taken care of by the system, regardless of being able to afford it. It's the USA where you have to start begging people for money to get care when you're poor.
20. Re:.gov gone wild by Luckyo · 2012-09-09 04:48 · Score: 2
  
  Yes, I understand that you're a supremacist, completely unable to view the world outside your narrow lens what it "should be" as you have been taught.
  Reality is, it's not chains, golden or not. It's a normal human society performing its base functions. Something that has apparently been so perverted in yours, that it rendered you apparently incapable of even understanding what the issue is, much less that there are functional and better alternatives to your very narrow view of "what should be right".
21. Re:.gov gone wild by ormondotvos · 2012-09-09 05:04 · Score: 2
  
  Long ago, decades, I went to Sweden for the summer, to visit a friend there. I asked why the suicide rate was so high. They said, "Because it's OK to die on purpose here. There's no real disapproval." "Hmmm" I said.
  It's been almost fifty years, and that explanation holds for me. When you think it's time for your life to end, you just do it. It doesn't shame you, your children, your friends and co-workers. It just is.
  The USA has a weird culture, no question, and sometimes it scare the hell out of people from other cultures.
22. Re:.gov gone wild by maxwell+demon · 2012-09-09 06:08 · Score: 2
  
  Why? I'd really like to learn how to create young earths. If humans continue to ruin the Old Earth we are living on, it might be a useful skill to have.
  
  --
  The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
Huh? by ericloewe · 2012-09-07 22:44 · Score: 3, Insightful

Aren't you supposed to get something (say, a copy of the final product) in exchange for your contribution? Sounds like some Bureaucrat thinks his workload is a bit low...
1. Re:Huh? by Seumas · 2012-09-07 23:20 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  No. You are making a donation. Period. (Note that it is not a *charitable* donation, however). Kickstarter's literature specifically uses the word "donation".
  The only requirement for the project to receive your money is that, collectively, the amount of money pledged reaches their pre-defined goal.
  Kickstarter states that any promised rewards *should* be fulfilled, but those are essentially an aside to the pledge itself and if the reward is never fulfilled, you essentially have no recourse whatsoever. Well, that's not entirely true -- you can try to get it from the person who is running the project, but since Kickstarter never actually touches the money, they have no mechanism through which to refund you. Assuming they even would bother with a process to facilitate that -- which they probably wouldn't, since they aren't even willing to establish a process to vet submitted projects.
  In the few years that Kickstarter has been going, there have been no catastrophic horror stories. There have been a few scams detected while in-the-act and cancelled and there have been some that are taking their own sweet delayed time to fulfill them, but I think we're a good year and a half away from any potential major backlash due to lack of fulfillment. That's because projects really started to surge once Double Fine threw their hat in the ring and most projects after that won't be culminating for some time, still.
  Of course, you should get something if you're told that you're going to, but you should also not back a project with your rent-money. I think of every dollar I throw into Kickstarters as a spin at the roulette wheel. If it fails (to follow through), I paid the price of admission to go along for the ride and get the updates and see how the project goes. If it succeeds, I get something cool that I wanted, too. Not to mention, not every kickstarter is about "if you pledge $20, I'll give you a thing". Sometimes it's just "I want to produce a play in my town, please back me to get it going". Video games and board games get the most attention, but there have been some cool things like a project to massively automate the preservation and archival of a massive collection of black history photographs.
  Unfortunately, a lot of people immediately scream "REGULATION DURP DURP!". I don't see the point in that. You're free to chip in your money or not and the up and downside is clearly laid out. I think people who scream about that tend to misunderstand (and have never even visited the website). They somehow think you're literally investing in the project in a real way. As in, a way that would require filings and SEC administration.
  What is going to happen is that Kickstarter will remain the king for awhile and if they ever seriously falter, they will have to quickly get their shit together (vetting projects and getting more involved in their facilitation to assure backers -- perhaps even to the point of establishing SafeHarbor gaurantees like eBay and Amazon do for purchases from merchants that use their marketplaces)... or someone else will do those things and eat their lunch. Competition will ensure that if this remains a viable idea that the public is interested in, someone finds a way to improve upon it and make it more stable.
  In the meantime, I've paid out about $1,600 of about $5,000 in pledges. Had some great experiences (met some fantastic people I would never have imagined I would), got some cool games and albums, kept up with projects via lots of updates. Participated in community decision-making projects on some things I've liked, and jumped in as a beta tester (actual beta-testing; not the modern video game industry definition of beta-testing as marketing) and have seen some really passionate people rewarded with community interest in their projects. If I get screwed on a couple of projects, I'll get over it.
Adapting the law by houghi · 2012-09-07 22:47 · Score: 2

In an ideal world, we would adapt the laws to the people. In this world we try to adapt the people to the law.
Basically looking for a technical solution for a social problem.

--
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
This is a non-issue in this particular case. by dnaumov · 2012-09-07 22:49 · Score: 4, Informative

As can be seen from the lawyer responce (the "concerning using crowdfunding to finance a project [PDF; Finnish]" link in Summary, while asking for money while giving nothing in return in Finland requires a license, on Kickstarter, people submitting money are actually making a pre-order of a product (the book in question), so that particular law does not apply.
Are PayPal donations also outlawed? by vovick · 2012-09-07 22:50 · Score: 2

The main problem is that direct translations of terminology at Kickstarter, such as 'bounty' and 'support,' are interpreted to mean collecting money without giving anything back, and this kind of operation requires a permit which can be only given to associations, not to private persons.
Does this mean people in Finland cannot also accept donations for projects they are working on since this is technically the same "giving money for nothing in return" issue?
Why is Finland involved? by Bogtha · 2012-09-07 23:25 · Score: 2

Only permanent US residents paid through a US bank account are eligible for Kickstarter. Why does the Finnish government think it can dictate the terms of a project where a US company is paying a US resident to do stuff?

--
Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
1. Re:Why is Finland involved? by QuasiSteve · 2012-09-07 23:34 · Score: 2
  
  While KickStarter's ToS requires that the KickStarter be set up by a U.S. resident paid through a U.S. bank account, the project can actually be led by - and funds transferred to - anybody from anywhere. The clause itself is fallout from their working with Amazon to handle payments.
  You'll see projects from Finland, Germany, Israel, etc.
  http://www.kickstarter.com/discover/ - hit up the 'cities' search.
  In this case, the project creators seem to be from Finland and thus likely subject to Finnish law.
Re:Governments are the enemy by AK+Marc · 2012-09-07 23:40 · Score: 4, Insightful

People asking for donations without the intention of delivering are a major problem. That fraud takes billions every year. Finland has a law to cut down on that. That way, if someone is asking for money, you know they are legitimate, as they have filed all the proper papers and are traceable, even if not fully vetted. I don't see anything unusual or even onerous about this law. But it seems silly that someone entering a business venture didn't find out commonly known rules related to it.

--
Learn to love Alaska
Sounds crazy to a USian by shaitand · 2012-09-07 23:57 · Score: 4, Insightful

Basically this seems to suggest that all charity and donations would require a special permit. Even asking someone for help when starving.
But after a bit of thought, it occurs to me that people in Finland don't have to beg for help. Here you need no permit but the collection jar on the counter is for something like a child with cancer. In Finland you wouldn't need a collection jar. Poor and hungry or in need of shelter would beg here. In Finland they would be fed, housed, and given medical treatment without any begging.
We truly are barbaric here in the US in some ways.
Full jails? by Firethorn · 2012-09-08 00:48 · Score: 2

One reason you don't see the jails as full of people as in the USA.
And here I thought it was the lack of a "war on drugs", maximum sentences of 20 years, where we'll toss you in prison for 40 for mere possession, if you have enough of it.
Not many people end up in prison over the more unusual laws. It's normally stuff like violence - murder, assault, robbery. Theft - burglary, theft, shoplifting, and the WoD.

--
I don't read AC A human right
It says "Oxo" on buses, but they don't go there by Hognoxious · 2012-09-08 01:59 · Score: 3, Informative

Just because they aren't called donations doesn't mean that in reality they aren't.
See also: waddling, quacking.

--
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
According to a Finn I knew... by Hognoxious · 2012-09-08 02:05 · Score: 4, Funny

The main problem is that direct translations of terminology at Kickstarter, such as 'bounty' and 'support,' are interpreted to mean collecting money without giving anything back
It's impossible to translate anything into Finnish. Even if it's in Finnish to start with.

--
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
In the US, there's the Mail Order Rule by Animats · 2012-09-08 04:55 · Score: 3, Informative

In the US, Kickstarter projects are subject to the FTC's Mail Order Rule. The Mail Order Rule basically says that if you order something, it has to be delivered or your money refunded within a specified time. The seller can specify a firm future delivery date, and if they don't, there's a 30 day default. Also, if the seller can't deliver, they must refund your money without you having to ask for it. The seller can ask for more time, but if you don't respond, they have to refund the money. This is a good rule; it keeps the mail order industry honest.
In the early days of the Web, many companies that accepted online orders got into trouble with the mail order rule. Usually, this was because they had online ordering but a paper-based order fulfillment system, and accepted far more orders than they could fill. Then they made excuses rather than refunds. The FTC fined companies for that. Now, everybody serious has the shopping cart system connected to the inventory system, so the order isn't accepted if it can't be shipped.
So Kickstarter companies in the US can get in trouble if they don't deliver. ZionEyes, with their vaporware "HD glasses", ran into this.