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Microsoft Ready To Address EU Antitrust Concerns

An anonymous reader sends this quote from a Reuters report: "Software giant Microsoft is ready to introduce measures that would address the European Union's antitrust concerns about users' ability to chose between different browsers, European Commissioner Joaquin Almunia said on Saturday. EU antitrust regulators are investigating whether Microsoft blocks computer makers from installing rival web browsers on its upcoming Windows 8 operating system, following complaints from several companies. Almunia is in charge of antitrust enforcement at the European Commission. 'In my personal talks with Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer he has given me assurances that they will comply immediately regardless of the conclusion of the anti trust probe,' Almunia said at an economic conference in northern Italy, adding that he considered the matter a 'very, very serious issue.'"

27 of 176 comments (clear)

  1. Chrome on Windows 8 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This dull reply written in Chrome on activated Windows 8 Enterprise. Chrome metro is full featured and superior in functionality to IE10 metro.

    1. Re:Chrome on Windows 8 by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Now try doing that on Windows RT (the ARM version).

    2. Re:Chrome on Windows 8 by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2

      Actually, there is a difference between iOS and WinRT in that regard. And neither have blanket bans on third-party browsers, it's more subtle than that.

      On iOS, the restriction is that your app cannot have an interpreter that is used to run code that is not included with the app or explicitly input by the user. Needless to say, any conventional full-featured browser much be able to download and run JS, so that shoots them down right there and then. Opera Mini gets around it by running JS on the server, hence why it's there.

      On Win8, there is a similar restriction, but it is much more narrowly scoped. You're not allowed to download and run scripts that "change how the application interacts with the Windows Runtime, or behave with regard to Store policy". So you can't, say, expose WinRT APIs directly to a script. Basically, the point is to not allow the creation of an app that could sidestep the whole Store review process by running arbitrary code. However, for a more limited scenario, like limited scripting of the app itself, it is permissible. I believe this is sufficient to allow a browser to be implemented. At least, no-one has complained about that yet.

      The real problem with Windows RT is not the compliance policy, but the technical restriction that its sandbox imposes on Metro apps. Specifically, it blocks access to all Win32 APIs that permit dynamic runtime code generation - VirtualProtect etc. In other words, no JIT compilers. And all modern browsers use JIT compilers for their JS implementations, and would be quite a bit slower with a pure interpreter. And, of course, IE on Windows RT does have a JIT-based JS implementation, so it'll be faster than any third-party browser there.

      The other problem is that Windows RT does not allow the installation of third-party desktop apps; Metro only. So you can't write a third-party desktop browser for it - but it does have desktop IE...

      These two things are what Mozilla and Google were complaining about. That they basically cannot fully compete with IE on Windows RT due to sandboxing that applies to them but not to IE.

  2. It's a trap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    He ALWAYS says that, during the last anti-trust case, they lost, they where required to offer a choice. Microsoft would endlessly make some token change, then do a press release saying basically "EU has defeated us totally, we've capitulated, oh how unfair it all is", then a week later they'd quietly release details of the change they'd made and it was nothing, and didn't address the core point.

    They did this 4 or 5 times, each time doing a press release saying they'd totally capitulated, then release the change later only to find they hadn't done anything, then lobby US Senators and Congressmen to twist the law in their favor against with jingoism.

    It's a game he plays.

  3. For the record by symbolset · · Score: 5, Funny

    I'm a huge Steve Ballmer fan. I really love the direction he's taking the company. He's taking bold risks and exploring new avenues to give stockholders the returns they deserve. His work with partners - notably HP, Dell, Sony and Nokia are laudable: he's convinced them to operate on negative margins to Microsoft's benefit, even though their stocks are plumbing decadal lows on the stock market even on the eve of a new Windows launch. The man seems to have magical powers to lure others to their doom. You gotta give him that.

    I hear he's now heard about this whole "mobile" thing, and is working his legendary genius to start to study whether or not it's important. Once he figures this out we might have some innovation in mobile from Microsoft. In the meantime we'll just have to muddle along with what we can get from second tier innovators like Apple and Google.

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
    1. Re:For the record by Anonymous+Cowardus · · Score: 5, Informative

      I'm a huge Steve Ballmer fan. I really love the direction he's taking the company. He's taking bold risks and exploring new avenues to give stockholders the returns they deserve. His work with partners - notably HP, Dell, Sony and Nokia are laudable: he's convinced them to operate on negative margins to Microsoft's benefit, even though their stocks are plumbing decadal lows on the stock market even on the eve of a new Windows launch. The man seems to have magical powers to lure others to their doom. You gotta give him that.

      He is taking bold risks because he has to. Microsoft missed the mobile boat years ago and they're now trying to catch up by cannibalizing Nokia's last hope for survival.

      He has no magical powers, on the contrary. Last time I checked, he was in urgent need of a few Anger Management classes.

    2. Re:For the record by symbolset · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nokia's destiny is to be a filing cabinet full of patent licenses in Bellevue, Wa managed by 6 paralegals and one part-time lawyer. This fate is sealed. The full cabinet to the left is marked "Sendo" and the empty cabinet to the right is marked "Adobe".

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
  4. Think About This by arbiter1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Apple's iOS blocks people from changing default browser off Safari, But MS gets sued and Fined for Even Including IE? How da hell does that work?

    1. Re:Think About This by asa · · Score: 2

      It's really quite simple, actually.

      You may not agree with the deal that Microsoft made with the EU, but Microsoft and their anti-trust lawyers did agree to it and it is legally binding.

      Any questions?

    2. Re:Think About This by asa · · Score: 5, Informative

      I know a few ppl will try to use market share agreement

      This has little to do with market share now. Microsoft consented to a legally binding agreement with the European Commission. You might not approve of that agreement, but Microsoft and their division of anti-trust lawyers did agree to it. Now it would seem that Microsoft is in violation of that legally binding agreement and the EC is rightly talking with Microsoft about that.

      Should companies be able to sign legally binding deals with governments and then simply ignore them?

    3. Re:Think About This by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Apple *makes* their stuff.

      Microsoft is telling a third party what the third party can put on the machines they sell running windows.

      Think about the subtle difference.

    4. Re:Think About This by phantomfive · · Score: 5, Funny

      Just one. Is a deal made with a gun to your head still legally binding?

      If the one holding the gun is the government, then yes.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    5. Re:Think About This by UnknowingFool · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If your memory is faulty, the problem wasn't that MS included IE for free with Windows. The problem was they strong-armed OEMs into not installing or using Netscape. Like hinting that their OEM prices would rise if they installed Netscape. As far as I know you can uninstall Safari though some of the libraries Safari uses are core OS X libraries and should not be removed. MS tied IE so deep into Windows that it could not be removed and can only be hidden. That's the difference.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    6. Re:Think About This by Mitreya · · Score: 2

      Apple's iOS blocks people from changing default browser off Safari, But MS gets sued and Fined for Even Including IE? How da hell does that work?

      When Apple is a monopoly, they may have to be more careful. It may seem like they are everywhere, but they do not control more than 1/2 of any market (about 33% on smartphones, around 8% on desktops)

      Plus they don't block anyone from installing another competing browser, which I thought this complaint is about.

    7. Re:Think About This by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 2

      I always had to laugh at their argument that IE was so deeply embedded they cannot remove it.

      They built this whole plug-and-play architecture with COM and it's descendants, and made the browser a flagship example of using it, then reversed course and started deliberately burying it deeply in Windows precisely to avoid anti-trust issues.

      Fair enough, to possibly get around a regulation that should not be there (nobody's exactly paying for Chrome or most other browsers; these companies supply them for the exact same reasons.) But it's still laughable.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  5. Yeah, right! by whoever57 · · Score: 3, Informative

    "In my personal talks with Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer he has given me assurances that they will comply immediately regardless of the conclusion of the anti trust probe," Almunia said at an economic conference in northern Italy, adding that he considered the matter a "very, very serious issue."

    Isn't this the same company that somehow "accidentally" dropped the browser selection process for european installations of Windows 7 SP1?

    --
    The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    1. Re:Yeah, right! by flyingfsck · · Score: 2

      Yup, that is what the talks are all about. MS is in danger of being fined for some multipes of the Greek national debt for that.

      --
      Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
  6. Dear EU regulator: Secure Boot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Hopefully the EU addresses secure boot on ARM. Locking out all other OSs besides windows on ARM devices is abusing Microsoft's x86 monopoly to attempt to create an ARM monopoly.

  7. Re:Dear EU regulator: Secure Boot by mlts · · Score: 4, Informative

    I wish they could add secure boot to the list that requires a mechanism to disable, such as locked bootloaders. This could be done similar to how the Nexus did the fastboot oem unlock, or similar to the mechanism of entering the IMEI, clicking yes to a series of dire warnings, and then getting a code to type in to unlock the bootloader permanently.

    Maybe it is pie in the sky, but it would be nice to have the ability to truly use a device one purchased as their own.

  8. Double standards by Taantric · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I can't understand the disconnect between the treatment of Microsoft for this and how Apple gets away with it's 'walled garden'. Could someone please explain why legally one is OK while the other is not.

  9. ballot DVD by sandoval88419 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I agree with you, MS have always played the same game, they get a slap on the hand, they promise, then they do nothing.

    Result today : we can't uninstall IE, selecting another search engine is painful, and we are obliged to buy Windows with every new machine.

    As long as MS have their deal with manufacturers to enforce a pre-installed windows nothing will change : Tied sale and MS tax. Which should be punished because MS are not a HW manufacturer.

    Either they do their HW and offer a pre-installed windows, either they sell SW by their own means at no-loss price.

    I think what'd be fair would be a ballot DVD :
    1- the user buys a brand new machine,
    2- boots the machine with the ballot DVD
    3- picks up Linux
    4- ????
    5- profit ! :-)

  10. Re:Dear EU regulator: Secure Boot by arbiter1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So wouldn't the ipad be effected under this since apple does the same thing on their ARM device?

  11. Ballot Screens. by VortexCortex · · Score: 2

    Hey! Linux and BSD are Free Operating Systems. If MS is using their dominant OEM installations to leverage IE, then they're doing the same for their OS... So, why not have a ballot when you turn an the PC for the first time that allows you to install a different OS?

    I'll even go one further, why not have MS show a ballot screen that allows you to choose MS Office (trial) or the full versions of Open Office or Libre Office. Instead of PBRUSH.EXE Microsoft should be giving us a ballot box for Gimp, Inkscape, and Photoshop (w/ payment, of course).

    Hey, I know, maybe we can create a repository for all the different software there is and LET THE FUCKING CUSTOMER CHOOSE? Ah, that would be insane! Why, customers couldn't possibly choose what OS they want installed on their systems -- They barely know how to use the damn devices in the first place. I know! Why doesn't someone just take advantage of this fact and leverage it to limit the available software and take a cut of all proceeds via pre-insatalled OS and "App Store" -- OOH! We could even prevent the user booting other OSs in the name of security! You know! Because if something can write to the boot sector, they'd never think of writing to ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING ELSE to infect the system. Why, it'll be the MOST SECURE VERSION of Windows ever released!

    ::sigh:: If only MS were smart enough to do so.

  12. And the sign on the door... by zooblethorpe · · Score: 2

    Nokia's destiny is to be a filing cabinet full of patent licenses in Bellevue, Wa managed by 6 paralegals and one part-time lawyer. This fate is sealed. The full cabinet to the left is marked "Sendo" and the empty cabinet to the right is marked "Adobe".

    And the sign on the door says, "Beware of Leopard".

    :-P

    Ballmer, Vogon High Commander in exile? Quick, someone get him to recite poetry!

    --
    "What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
    "A four-foot prune."
  13. Re:Does the EU do anything else than US bashing? by moronoxyd · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Does the EU have any other purpose than harassing US companies? This is 10+ year old news.

    Microsoft has a legally binding contract with the EU.
    It seems like Microsoft broke that contract.
    The EU investigates.
    Where exactly is the harassment?

    On a side note: The EU also investigates European companies in the same way if they break anti-trust laws. One example: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8140024.stm

  14. Too little too late. Govt = Bollywood cops. by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 2
    OK, Microsoft strong armed the PC makers into avoid installing Netscape and competing office suits. They had a pricing policy that has deep discounts for not installing competing products. Clear abuse of monopoly powers and the PC makers succumbed to it. Fine. It is all old story now.

    The PC makers are paying for their sins now. In fact paying for it for some time now. Dozens of them have gone under. The few who are left, Dell, HP+compaq, toshiba, are struggling. They all agreed to have identical offerings and chose to compete on price. Not a single one of them thought, "OK I will bite the extra cost of individual licensing, but install FiredFox+Noscript and pitch it as more secure PC and go for higher margins. In fact I will throw in OpenOffice and GIMP and virtualDub and Handbrake and pitch it as a fully functional PC". No, they did not. They all fell in line with Microsoft. Reduced to competing purely on price, with their margins cut severely, without any brand differentiation or brand identity the PC makers became as indistinguishable as costermongers, blood orange purveyors and the fish and chips vendors on the Piccadilly circus. Serves them right. Now Microsoft wants to get into hardware business and finish them all off.

    But it does not matter any more. PCs are not the most common devices that use the internet. With smartphones, tablets and e-books all having internet capabilities, even if IE regains the monopoly marketshare in PCs it would not matter anymore. With google docs and other on line free tools for document creation available, most households will never ever buy MsOffice suites. Many small companies and some medium companies are switching to alternatives to Microsoft Office. So, make no mistake, Microsoft will continue to make lots of money for a long time to come. But they do not have the power to stifle the whole industry for their personal gain. Idiotic product managers in Microsoft wont be able to make venture capital funding disappear for promising new technologies by press release and vaporware any more.

    And as usual the wheels of government have turned slowly and coming in to rescue us after we have fought back the menace all on our own. Where were they when Microsoft subverted document standards? Where were they when Microsoft deceptively named its shit OOXML? Where were they when we were down and the outlook looked gloomy? These are not the U S Cavalry riding into rescue at the crucial moment. They are the Bollywood cops who come into arrest the villain after the hero has single handedly defeated the villain and his thousand thugs with machine guns with bare hands, just as the credits start rolling.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
  15. Re:Government intervention goes both ways by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    As a 'Debian derivative' user:

    If Debian or *any company* had 90% of the Desktop PC OS market (or even 50%), I'd consider it might be a reasonable matter for the EU competition authorities to be concerned in.
    Did you get that the whole point of competition law was regulating the misuse of power by *dominant* companies, who have the power to force an entire market in a particular direction? And that Debian is not such a company, so it can do what it likes in this respect, unless and until it becomes such a company?