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The Fight To Reform Forensic Science

carmendrahl writes "Despite a 2009 report from the National Academy of Sciences that found the science in crime labs wanting, very little reform of forensic science has taken place. At a session about the Innocence Project, a group that exonerates prisoners with DNA evidence, speakers called on chemists to join the fight for reform. But forensic chemists don't all agree on what needs reforming."

23 of 93 comments (clear)

  1. First Step: ban tv by Spy+Handler · · Score: 4, Insightful

    People watch shows like Crime Scene: Scene of the Crime and think forensic results are infallible and always available in less than 40 minutes.

    1. Re:First Step: ban tv by CanHasDIY · · Score: 4, Funny

      People watch shows like Crime Scene: Scene of the Crime and think forensic results are infallible and always available in less than 40 minutes.

      What, you mean they can't magically increase the pixel resolution of any image or video, just by looking at it and saying, "enhance" over and over???

      Blasphemer!

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    2. Re:First Step: ban tv by Cute+Fuzzy+Bunny · · Score: 3, Insightful

      People watch shows like Crime Scene: Scene of the Crime and think forensic results are infallible and always available in less than 40 minutes.

      I was on a jury a few years back, and the first thing out of the prosecutors mouth was "This isn't csi. We don't have DNA evidence. We aren't going to bring out 10 dramatic witnesses", etc. Made me wonder why we're contemplating putting someone in jail for the rest of their lives if we aren't interested in spending the money on the evidence needed to really confirm a jury finding.

      I know some things that happen on tv aren't even plausible in real life at any price. But some of the stuff that gets passed in front of a jury is pretty weak.

    3. Re:First Step: ban tv by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 2

      A lot of judges will address just that during jury duty now. Had it happen last time I went.

      They also need to explain that "circumstantial" evidence does not mean "bad" or "unimportant" or "inadmissable." You can convict with only circumstantial if there is enough of it out to very high confidence level.

    4. Re:First Step: ban tv by Normal+Dan · · Score: 2

      It wouldn't take nearly as long as it does if someone would just build a GUI interface using Visual Basic to track a criminal's IP address.

      --
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    5. Re:First Step: ban tv by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Beyond reasonable doubt isn't a statistical test. Essentially, if, on the evidence, there is some reasonable and believable explanation other than "the accused did it and is guilty", then there is a reasonable doubt and there should not be a conviction.

      By way of example, if I am charged with murder on the basis that I was sleeping with the victim and they found the victim's blood in my car (admittedly, a pretty weak case), a reasonable explanation might be that because we were sleeping together we often drove around in the same car and one day the victim had a nose bleed and bled in my car.

      If I relate that version of events and the jury believes that I am or am likely to be telling the truth, that would constitute reasonable doubt as it is an alternate version of events which addresses the evidence against me and does not lead to the conclusion that I did it and am guilty.

    6. Re:First Step: ban tv by Mashiki · · Score: 2

      Rotate 75Deg on the z-axis, while in soviet RUSSIA!

      It's the only way to be sure...

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
  2. Must-see Frontline by digitalaudiorock · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I posted this link on a related story some time back. This is a must see if you think you know how bad forensic science (or lack of science) really is:

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/real-csi/

    1. Re:Must-see Frontline by CanHasDIY · · Score: 4, Informative

      I posted this link on a related story some time back. This is a must see if you think you know how bad forensic science (or lack of science) really is:

      http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/real-csi/

      Here's the ProPublica article written in conjunction with the PBS Frontline episode linked above, for those who like to read rather than watch.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    2. Re:Must-see Frontline by Kagato · · Score: 4, Insightful

      People should keep in mind that the "Crime Lab" isn't an independent laboratory. A lot of people think that the crime lab is there to find the scientific truth (just like in CSI), when in fact they are there to serve the needs of the police and/or the prosecution. A lot of the time that means cherry picking what tests they are going to run to suit the needs presupposed by the authorities.

      The sloppy science is just an extension of the prevailing attitude. Labs are often run in a highly politicized environment where the emphasis is getting convictions. Most of the time the budget is tied to that as well. In fact most police run labs aren't even accredited.

      Until the crime lab is an independent fixture of the state that both the prosecution and defense can use it's going to be a problem.

    3. Re:Must-see Frontline by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Citation? People should keep in mind that you don't know what you're talking about.

      I work at a forensic lab that's nominally under the budgetary authority of a police agency, so I speak from personal experience when I say that I've never seen a case where anyone has been "cherry picking what tests they are going to run to suit the needs presupposed by the authorities".
      We generally don't have a wide range of tests to chose from in any given scenario. They tell us what they suspect is present and we tell them if that's possible or impossible.

      I've also never seen even an inkling of pressure as to what conclusions to be drawn by lab management. We also go out of our way to offer equal time and access to defense teams and experts, even though they're often actively hostile. It's true that we work with the police and prosecution more often than not, but that's a structural artifact that arises from the fact that there's usually no defense team once we find evidence that contradicts the prosecutions case since charges are usually dropped. We do post-conviction testing when it's requested without prejudice.

      Lab management don't care the slightest bit about convictions and usually don't pay any attention to cases after we've testified. As far as I know, budgets are tied most closely to case output and backlogs. I don't think anyone even tracks convictions at our lab, much less ties them to budgets.

      As for accreditation, I can conclusively say you're wrong, as any lab that lacks ISO 17025 accreditation from an external accreditation body is not allowed access to CODIS by the FBI, making DNA nearly useless. That's on top of annual internal audits and FBI audits.

      If you actually have recent personal experience to back up your statements, it has to be from somewhere outside the USA or some bizarre world lab. It sounds like you're describing the state of affairs 20 years ago or more.

      I actually agree that labs should be under independent authority, but only to avoid the appearance of impropriety rather than any evidence of actual issues.

    4. Re:Must-see Frontline by pepty · · Score: 2
      How often are tests run blind? For example, say you have fingerprint evidence and want to see if it matches a particular suspect. Is standard practice to 1: compare the evidence to the suspect's fingerprint directly; or 2: put the suspect's fingerprint in a database, run the evidence against the database, evaluate the hits to find the best match, and only after the final determination was made actually unblind the evidence and find out who belongs to the fingerprint?

      Same goes for DNA, though for that I'd think the problems would be with evidence collection/contamination rather than the analysis itself.

    5. Re:Must-see Frontline by sjames · · Score: 2

      Here's one. That doesn't mean all labs have those problems, but certainly a prominent one seems to have.

      A key quote from C. Fred Whitehurst (former FBI agent):

      "Guys in the lab wanting to ‘solve’ the case and be heroes might have pushed the envelope and been the guy who did what no one else could do," he said. "I have no doubt there will be more exonerations.”

  3. Judges are a major problem by MikeRT · · Score: 2

    One of the recurring themes that keeps popping up in blog posts on prominent civil libertarians' blogs is that the judges rarely, if ever, call out blatant bullshit such as "bite mark analysis" or sanction prosecutors for withholding evidence. We need reforms that let judges be swiftly fired in some of these cases.

  4. Forensic liars by girlintraining · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The problem with forensic science is that it's less a science and more an art. Take identifying the flash point of a fire for example -- it's not as easy as people say or suspect. For years, "scientists" would point to certain fracture patterns or scorching marks and say that was the source, but there was never any studies done on it. It was mostly speculation, compounded by experience. Without any feedback on whether they were actually right or wrong, they developed a false sense of confidence. And in court, confidence + authority = conviction.

    The problem is that the legal system doesn't use scientific standards, it uses legal standards. And the law is based on experience -- it is forever looking backwards. A precident set 200 years ago is just as applicable in a court today as it was in the intervening years. Science, on the other hand, only considers the most current understanding relevant. And that's where the problems start. The law says that once a kind of forensic examination carries legal weight, then even if it is later conclusively proven scientifically to be false, it does not overturn past convictions, nor does it prevent its use in the present.

    Our justice system is not about fairness or justice -- it is about maintaining public perception of order, which is a separate and distinct concept. It can be quite orderly and efficient to never allow a new trial for the convicted... it is not necessarily fair.

    --
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    1. Re:Forensic liars by jomegat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      An ex-attorney friend of mine once observed, "We do not have a justice system. We have a legal system." It's an important thing to remember.

      --

      In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice, they're not.

    2. Re:Forensic liars by pepty · · Score: 2

      The problem is that the legal system doesn't use scientific standards, it uses legal standards.

      The Daubert standard might have fixed that somewhat - until it was watered down.

      Wiki:

      original Daubert standard:

      Empirical testing: whether the theory or technique is falsifiable, refutable, and/or testable. Whether it has been subjected to peer review and publication. The known or potential error rate. The existence and maintenance of standards and controls concerning its operation. The degree to which the theory and technique is generally accepted by a relevant scientific community.

      Now it's:

      A witness who is qualified as an expert by knowledge, skill, experience, training, or education may testify in the form of an opinion or otherwise if: (a) The expert’s scientific, technical, or other specialized knowledge will help the trier of fact to understand the evidence or to determine a fact in issue; (b) The testimony is based on sufficient facts or data; (c) The testimony is the product of reliable principles and methods; and (d) The expert has reliably applied the principles and methods to the facts of the case.

    3. Re:Forensic liars by pepty · · Score: 3, Informative

      There is lots of science and studies behind investigating fires. Perhaps you are confused between something you saw on a movie and something you heard in real life.

      Probably he was confused between real life and real life in Texas, which probably executed an innocent man (Cameron Willingham) in 2004 based on old standards for point of origin and use of accelerants evidence.

    4. Re:Forensic liars by sjames · · Score: 2

      That is sadly true. I cannot even imagine the depraved mindset it takes for a prosecutor faced with incontrovertible evidence that a man is innocent to fight against his immediate release. If there is true evil in the world, surely that is it.

  5. What needs reform is.. by wbr1 · · Score: 2

    Too often the forensic office is friends with and/or pressured by the police or DA to get results. Especially in election years or for high profile casrs.
    Forensic science should be done behind a blind. I.E., with no name or trackable case number attached to the evidence, by a lab in an entirely different physical area than the case.
    Anonymous methods of communication can be devised to pass requests back and forth.
    In addition, whenever possible the work should be peer reviewed as in redone, again anoymously by another lab.
    We spend millions locking up people for joints, this is peoples entire lives that are ruined by mistakes, over zealouness, and -gasp- corruption.
    But, lile security theater, it is not about safety, but the illusion of safety. Oh, and raking in tax dollars for a job done wrong.

    --
    Silence is a state of mime.
    1. Re:What needs reform is.. by Sooner+Boomer · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Too often the forensic office is friends with and/or pressured by the police or DA to get results.

      More likely they are willing to do whatever they can to "fight crime". As an example, I give you the case of Joyce Gilcrist. From the Wilipedia entry

      "Joyce Gilchrist is a former forensic chemist who had participated in over 3,000 criminal cases in 21 years while working for the Oklahoma City police department, and who was accused of falsifying evidence. Her evidence led in part to 23 people being sentenced to death, 11 of whom have been executed."

      We'll never know how many of those 3000 were actually innocent, while the guilty walked free. She should have been charged with conspiracy to commit murder through depraved indifference, but that's just my opinion.

      --
      Chaos maximizes locally around me.
  6. Re:How about the mythbusters testing that CSI stuf by Rod+Beauvex · · Score: 2

    I believe that one comes after the episode where they take on the easy hackability of RFID.

  7. Re:How about the mythbusters testing that CSI stuf by Kagato · · Score: 2

    CSI is a bit of the tail waging the dog. I know one company that changed their UI to rotate through random fingerprint and mugshot photos when searching because there was an expectation to make the thing look like it does on CSI.