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UK Government Owns 16.9 Million Unused IPv4 Addresses

hypnosec writes "The Department of Work and Pensions in the UK has a /8 block of IPv4 addresses that is unused. An e-petition was created asking the DWP to sell off the block to ease the IPv4 address scarcity in the RIPE region. John Graham-Cumming, the person who first discovered the unused block, discovered that these 16.9 million IP addresses were unused after checking in the ASN database."

399 comments

  1. Who cares by Formalin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Just apply the real cure already... This is so ridiculous.

    1. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Redundant

      What's with the number? TFA actually gives the exact value of 2^24 and then refers to it later as a block of 16.9 million addresses. Weird rounding scheme.

    2. Re:Who cares by GNUALMAFUERTE · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I know IPv6 is needed, and it'll be great having disposable addresses to throw at any device. I'll be certainly happy to get rid of NAT in many circumstances, but OTOH, IPv6 is going to suck. I have tens of IPs in my head, which I access daily by memory. IPv4 addresses are easy to remember, easy to pass over the phone, easy to type, and easy to operate (i.e, calculate things such as masks in your head, etc). IPv6 is going to make it way harder, and that's not taking into account he migration process ...

      --
      WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
    3. Re:Who cares by multiben · · Score: 2

      Agree completely, but how the hell did the DWP end up with that many ip addresses?

    4. Re:Who cares by mellon · · Score: 5, Informative

      Dude, it's time to learn how to set up DNS. Honest, it's not that hard. Your DHCP server can automatically update the DNS for you. Try it—you'll like it!

    5. Re:Who cares by fluffy99 · · Score: 0

      I know IPv6 is needed, and it'll be great having disposable addresses to throw at any device. I'll be certainly happy to get rid of NAT in many circumstances, but OTOH, IPv6 is going to suck. I have tens of IPs in my head, which I access daily by memory. IPv4 addresses are easy to remember, easy to pass over the phone, easy to type, and easy to operate (i.e, calculate things such as masks in your head, etc). IPv6 is going to make it way harder, and that's not taking into account he migration process ...

      Appropriate use of DNS makes memorizing IPs less painful. The transition is painful indeed. Lets start with XP and 2003 not properly supporting IPv6. Their dual stack implementation sucks as you can't even tell it to prefer IPv4 over IPv6 when DNS gives you both a v4 and v6 address. I won't even get into how IPv6 makes it much easier to track you.

    6. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is like going from 10 digits dialing to 20 digits dialing. ;P That's when a phone book (DNS lookup) comes in.
      If only the IPv6 is as simple as adding extra digits to existing equipment (and not just new equipments) without changing firmware like the common telephone. Somewhere the forward compatibility is lost on people.

    7. Re:Who cares by fm6 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As any climate scientist will tell you, the ability of people to deny impending disaster is remarkable, especially when doing something about it costs money. That includes people on Slashdot, who keep telling me that the whole address depletion thing is bogus, that we can keep going indefinitely by discovering unused blocks and using existing blocks more efficiently.

      A few years ago, I was part of the product team that was working on a new Sun server. Now, every Sun server comes with an ILOM (Integrated Lights Out Manager), a little embedded Linux system that lets an administrator manage the server remotely. Naturally, the ILOM has its own network interface — but the one planned for this system did not support IPv6. I pointed out all the IPv4 address exhaustion issues, but was basically told to mind my own business. "No customer demand for this feature." Never mind that a few years down the pipe, customers would be very unhappy they didn't have it.

    8. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I think you'll find that this complaint comes mainly from folks that do know how to set up DNS.

      The real difference isn't realizing that we have DNS, it's that with IPv6 and no more NAT, devices will do DNS and it won't be such an annoyance.

    9. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As someone who has poor memory and has used DNS for quite a while now, I can assure you, you will (learn to) manage :)

    10. Re:Who cares by DigiShaman · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Sometimes DNS fails or you need to validate routing tables and troubleshoot based on pure IP alone. Yes, IPv6 is going to suck badly in this regard. Feeble human mind. Oh well, I'll just have to get used to depending on an IPv6 calculator app on my smartphone. That and a TXT list that I can cut-n-paste in a terminal screen. Bah!

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    11. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm looking forward to the IPv6 Internet. However, the biggest loss is going to be anonymity. Every Web browser (and other) access can be taken from the server logs and converted into a name and street address, as every home will get a static IPv6 prefix.

      So be careful before you disparage prophets "anonymously;" they will be able to get you.

    12. Re:Who cares by jibjibjib · · Score: 1

      My DHCP server is a crappy consumer appliance that can't update DNS from DHCP without unsupported and buggy third-party firmware hacks. I think the majority of internet users are in the same situation.

    13. Re:Who cares by Miamicanes · · Score: 1

      The problem is, DNS is like USB, and IPv4 is like RS232. If you're anywhere close to being right, you can probably get ipv4 (or a real serial port set to 9600-8-N-1) to work well enough to give you clues about what the real problem is. In contrast, DNS (like USB) tends to just fail hard and catastrophically, giving no obvious clues about what might actually be wrong.

    14. Re:Who cares by fm6 · · Score: 1, Funny

      Oops, I mentioned global warming, I guess that makes me a troll.

    15. Re:Who cares by fm6 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think you need to ask yourself why you have to remember all those IP addresses. I'll bet that in each one could be dispensed with if you had the motivation to work out a DNS-based way to access these systems — with the possible exception of the DNS servers themselves.

    16. Re:Who cares by GNUALMAFUERTE · · Score: 4, Interesting

      mysql> select count(host) from systems;
      | count(host) |
                        498 |
      1 row in set (0.00 sec)

      (stupid slashdot thinks mysql's output are junk characters)

      Since most of those 498 servers I manage are behind NAT and have dynamic public IPs, I do have a system to track them (not ddns, but a homemade solution), and I have scripts in place that allow me to get any server's IP. Combine that with shell expansion and I can ssh root@`gethost customer_id server_id` and similar stuff. That doesn't mean you don't have to deal with IP addresses anyway, and it doesn't mean doing ifconfig eth0 2001:0db8:85a3:0042:0000:8a2e:0370:7334 is gonna be easy. Imagine debugging a routing table! Imagine reading the output of tcpdump with such meaningless addresses. IPv6 is gonna be a PITA.

      --
      WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
    17. Re:Who cares by GNUALMAFUERTE · · Score: 4, Funny

      Well, windows not being able to get into the internet is a big advantage of IPv6!

      --
      WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
    18. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Care to explain? I can't think of a single example where anything you said makes sense. Just a simple instance of DNS failing hard and catastrophically with no obvious clue as to what may be wrong will suffice.

    19. Re:Who cares by slimjim8094 · · Score: 5, Informative

      I won't even get into how IPv6 makes it much easier to track you.

      Because that's nonsense? (Almost) Everybody implements the privacy extensions, so your world-visible address is random and changes every 10-ish minutes.

      --
      I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
    20. Re:Who cares by GNUALMAFUERTE · · Score: 0

      read my other post. Most of these systems are behind NAT on connections that have dynamic ip addresses. I can't use ddns because of security policies. I do maintain a DB of hosts, and there's a script in every machine that auto-updates the server. I also have scripts that combined with shell expansion allow me to ssh root@`gethost customer_id server_id`. Right now there are 498 active entries in that table. I can watch a log and easily identify one IP from the other. Try doing that with IPv6. Try tcpdumping something, and quickly identify machines as they go by your log. Now try doing that in IPv6. Fuck those extra 96bits.

      --
      WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
    21. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My DHCP server is a crappy consumer appliance that can't update DNS from DHCP without unsupported and buggy third-party firmware hacks. I think the majority of internet users are in the same situation.

      Nope. Most internet users have a cheap piece of shit router that is more than capable of updating DNS from DHCP, and it's been like that since the late 90's.

    22. Re:Who cares by MaerD · · Score: 1

      Straw man argument. If you, in your individual data center/office/etc are able to exhaust all of the private ip blocks for your management network that has no business facing the Internet, you have way more hardware than you really need and should probably consider virtualization, blades or some other method of reducing your server footprint.

      All that extra power usage contributes to global warming, after all... ;)

      --
      I put on my robe and wizard hat..
    23. Re:Who cares by jibjibjib · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes. In IPv6, a home internet connection generally has a rarely-changing prefix that can be converted to a name and address with the ISP's cooperation.

      But in IPv4, a home internet connection generally has a rarely-changing prefix that can be converted to a name and address with the ISP's cooperation.

      How is IPv6 worse?

    24. Re:Who cares by jibjibjib · · Score: 1, Redundant

      No, in the late 90s, most Internet users connected via dial-up and didn't have a router at all.

      Of the three or four cheap routers I have tested, from different manufacturers, using different chipsets and different operating systems, none have used DHCP information to answer DNS queries.

    25. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's got to be the British strategic stock pile of IP addresses, or a part of a secret MI5 scheme to extend the CCTV system to the pensioners using wheelchairs in places of worship.

    26. Re:Who cares by phantomfive · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It won't be that bad at first, until a lot of addresses are used, because of the IPv6 notation shorteners. For example, ff06:0:0:0:0:0:0:c3 may be written as ff06::c3. Unless your ISP gives you a random number as an IP address, it'll still be fine to work with.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    27. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      An IPv6 interface can have an arbitrary number of addresses assigned.

      Privacy extensions are seldom used on servers, but even if they are then a SLAC or manually-assigned address can also be applied to the interface as the management address.

    28. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You won't need DDNS with IPv6. All of the hosts will have static, globally routeable addresses unless you choose otherwise. SLAAC addresses are based on the MAC address and network prefix, so won't ever change. Just put them directly in the DNS.

    29. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I am yet to see DNS fail badly. I have seen plenty of people who don't understand it say it does, when the problem is invariably routing or a firewall.

    30. Re:Who cares by Seumas · · Score: 1

      Exactly. The idea that we're fretting over sixteen million addresses when IPv6 can literally provide about a hundred IP addresses for every atom on earth is ridiculous.

      Then again, when when there are more IP addresses than there are molecules of air, providers won't be able to charge you $15/mo for a static IP address any more.

    31. Re:Who cares by Seumas · · Score: 1

      The length of IP addresses isn't your problem, here.

      And even if it were, we bitched about phone numbers when area codes started becoming important (suddenly having to remember ten digits instead of seven).

    32. Re:Who cares by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 4, Funny

      No, that doesn't, but acting like the issue is settled and done with does. Pick something less controversial and more agreed on next time. There are plenty of examples you could have used to support your point which are not politically charged topics.

      In other words, play it safe - use gay marriage as your example next time.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    33. Re:Who cares by DavidRawling · · Score: 1

      For me it's not the "hard and catastrophic" failures that are a problem - it's the subtle ones. For example a recent customer environment - DNS lookup for a particular server returned the wrong IP. It worked perfectly, and fast, except that the data was wrong. It took nearly a week of debugging firewalls, routing tables, services and app configuration to figure it out - and the problem was actually caused by OpenDNS and its filtering.

      When you look at "64.27.80.4" and compare it to "67.215.2.41" the differences are obvious. Not so when you're trying to compare "6732:87fb:87fa:12a9::54d8" with "6732:87fb:87fa:72a9::54d8" and work out why things are failing.

    34. Re:Who cares by badfish99 · · Score: 1

      To apply the fix, everyone involved must cooperate and spend a lot of money upgrading.

      The alternative is to carry without ipv6: this will create an artificial scarcity of ipv4 addresses. They will become more and more valuable, so existing businesses will be able to make more and more money renting them out: as no more are available, nobody else will be able to join the cartel to get a slice of the pie.

      So: the choice is: spend a lot of money on ipv6 now to help the customer, or screw the customer over and head towards a cartel-dominated future. Surely ipv6 is doomed.

    35. Re:Who cares by wvmarle · · Score: 3, Funny

      that's the price of progress

    36. Re:Who cares by dracocat · · Score: 1

      Custom hosts files will probably go far for this. Instead of keeping a txt file or something of your ipv6 ips. Throw them all in your hosts file.

    37. Re:Who cares by lister+king+of+smeg · · Score: 1

      don't worry just because they won't have a ligament reason to won't mean they won't do it anyway just so they can make a few extra bucks

      --
      ---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
    38. Re:Who cares by burne · · Score: 2

      I know I'm a bit of a nerd, but I know my prefix (2001:470:XXXX::) and after the double double colon I am master of my domain, so my website lives on ::10, the mailserver on ::20 etc. If you can remember a ipv4 address, ipv6 shouldn't be more difficult, in general.

    39. Re:Who cares by argStyopa · · Score: 2

      Except for the fact that, when an emergency comes, the budget magically opens and people stop counting their pennies.
      That would mean that if/when the IPv4 crunch comes to a point where we HAVE to confront it, IT dept's will get fresh new budgets to buy the NEW Sun server that *does* have IPv6 functionality.
      I'm not saying omitting it was a good idea, but cynically it might make sense.

      --
      -Styopa
    40. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's one more massive regression since OpenBoot?

    41. Re:Who cares by houghi · · Score: 1

      especially when doing something about it costs money

      Costing money is the ONLY reason. Why would an ISP implement IPv^ if they can upsell fixed IPv4 addresses and put everybody else behind local addresses.

      Now many sell the IPv4 addresses for about 50EUR a month. This because they say that there are not enough of them. This way with NO investment they can ask 50 EUR more from any (small) business.

      Once IPv6 is around, they can not do that anymore and small businesses will just buy cheaper personal accounts.

      So this situation is ideal. No extra investing + extra income vs the opposite.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    42. Re:Who cares by FireFury03 · · Score: 4, Informative

      When IPV6 is what we have to work with, we will be swarmed by those bastard botnets with no way to block that many IP addresses that will be used to attack.

      You'll probably want to just block the prefix rather than the address, which is just as easy under v6. In fact, having sparsely populated address space is good for security since it makes blindly scanning addresses much less effective for the malware.
      ith it either.

      Imo the botnet criminals have been trying to force the use of IPV6 by getting all new ranges of IPV4 allocated as soon as possible.

      Huh? Botnets run on existing machines (frequently home PCs), how does that have anything to do with IPv4 exhaustion?

      Rather than IPV6 globally and IPV4 internally, I think IPV6 should be what the countries that attack us, who just happen to have very large populations, can use for themselves.

      Why do you want to penalise the "good countries" by forcing them to stay on an obsolete protocol? (that said, a good number of attacks against my servers come from the US)

    43. Re:Who cares by CodeheadUK · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Ranges were given out like candy to anyone who asked in the early days of the web. Corporations, Government and Academics made a land grab because they were the only people who could use the resource at the time.

      I've heard that Glasgow Uni has a /8 that's never had more than 10 addresses exposed to the Internet.

    44. Re:Who cares by shitdrummer · · Score: 1

      Try working in Comms on complicated networks. DNS is great but isn't practical to use in all cases.

    45. Re:Who cares by Patch86 · · Score: 1

      Forgive me for being ignorant (networking has never been my strong point); what exactly does setting up a DNS for home use entail?

      As an aside, I don't think DNS will solve all of the GP's complaints. Calculating masks in your head will still be a more difficult task, and typing them into systems will still be necessary (even if only when setting up the DNS) and will still be that much more awkward. In some ways, DNS will be like the NAT of the IPv6 world- a completely necessary, and really useful, but nonetheless pain-in-the-ass fix for something that really does need fixing.

    46. Re:Who cares by darkain · · Score: 1

      Some ISPs have been quite clever with their numerical schemes to help make this easier... Lets see if you can figure this one out - 2a03:2880:10:cf01:face:b00c::

    47. Re:Who cares by darkain · · Score: 1

      And odds are it doesn't do IPv6 either. So you'd already have to upgrade your device to have IPv6 support, which in turn you could opt to get one with proper DHCP local DNS support.

    48. Re:Who cares by mjwx · · Score: 2

      that's the price of progress

      Why not make them human readable? Keep the hex numbers in the background but have a human readable translation for them in the foreground? IIRC, it's just the same 256 characters as IPv4 but there's 8 octets instead of 4. Obviously 255.255.255.255.255.255.255.255 is not ideal but I'm sure someone can come up with a better system.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    49. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which says "Privacy extensions do little to protect the user from tracking if only one or two hosts are using a given network prefix, and the activity tracker is privy to this information. In this scenario, the network prefix is the unique identifier for tracking."

      So in other words, pretty much the same as now. Also, changing IP addresses every 10 minutes, that's going to be fun for sites which limit sessions to just to one IP address. Yes, yes it is. I guess users will clamour for that to be per-prefix, and then we're right back in tracky-world again.

    50. Re:Who cares by unixisc · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's not so much DNS they are doing as much as ND (neighbor detection) and autoconfiguring. And the latter is I think what the GP's complaint was about. Difference in IPv6 is that unlike in IPv4, DHCP6 is more essential than DHCP4 was in IPv4.

    51. Re:Who cares by unixisc · · Score: 1

      Or you can get some PAM software, or even write your own. It's just a case of managing the last 16 digits of the address.

    52. Re:Who cares by Znork · · Score: 2

      IPv6 doesn't force you to use the autoconfig addresses, so with strategic use of shortening the addresses and assigning easy ones they're not really that much more difficult to remember than v4 addresses if you really insist on avoiding dns.

      You can get away with something like 2002:0ca5:01f3:1::1 which means you'll basically just have to remember your routing prefix and then whatever addresses you decide yourself.

    53. Re:Who cares by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      IPv4 is 32 bit; v6 is 128 bit, so should be 16 octets in that case. Getting really long.

    54. Re:Who cares by TheRaven64 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      For home users, it entails pretty much nothing. If you're running a commodity operating system, it probably already advertises its host name via mDNS. It may also already advertise its link-local IPv6 address. Try sshing to a Mac on your local network by its name and see which address it tries to connect to: you may be surprised...

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    55. Re:Who cares by knorthern+knight · · Score: 2

      > Which says "Privacy extensions do little to protect the user from tracking if only one or
      > two hosts are using a given network prefix, and the activity tracker is privy to this
      > information. In this scenario, the network prefix is the unique identifier for tracking."

      No different than right now. That depends on whether or not the ISP hands you a dynamic IP address or a static IP address. Static IP addresses will allow/encourage people to set up servers. Most ISPs do not like that. So I expect dynamic IP addresses to remain the norm. In my case, I have a seperate electricity meter for my condo. This is a financial incentive to turn off my PC and ADSL-router-modem off when not in use, I get a different IPV4 address every day.

      What reason do you have for believing that ISP's will start handing out static IPV6 prefixes?

      --

      I'm not repeating myself
      I'm an X window user; I'm an ex-Windows user
    56. Re:Who cares by Hentes · · Score: 1

      Without the ISPs cooperation, the IPv4 prefix only tells which general area (like city) you are in. With IPv6, websites won't need to rely on cookies and other defeatable methods to track you.

    57. Re:Who cares by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      When IPV6 is what we have to work with, we will be swarmed by those bastard botnets with no way to block that many IP addresses that will be used to attack.

      Don't block the address, block the prefix. Block a /64 and you're probably blocking a consumer endpoint. With IPv6, addresses are allocated hierarchically, so this becomes even easier. Just shorten the prefix and you'll eventually get the whole ISP. This makes it very easy to block ISPs or even countries that harbour spammers.

      Additionally, it becomes much easier for a home user to identify attacks at the router. If you pick a random 32-bit number, odds are that it is a valid IPv4 address. Pick a dozen and you've almost certainly found one that's a home Internet connection. That makes it very easy for malware to spread. Pick a random 64-bit number, and if you're very lucky it's an IPv6 subnet that has some computers on it. Now you have to pick another 64-bit number to find one of the computers on it. For a home Internet connection, most users will be using under 50 of these (and rotating them quite frequently), so you end up with a 50 in 2^64 chance of getting the right one. After a few tries, their router's firewall will notice the suspicious behaviour (lots of connection requests to nonexistent addresses) and block your /64.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    58. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How do I know what host name my box is advertising via mDNS?

    59. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In IPv6, a home internet connection generally has a rarely-changing prefix that can be converted to a name and address with the ISP's cooperation.

      No, in IPv6, the prefix changes only when you change ISPs and ISP cooperation is not needed to track the address to the physical you. Your IPv6 prefix will be published in many contexts for the applications to reach your home. In all likelihood you will be able to type in the prefix and Google gives you the information of the owner of the prefix. (I have a static IPv4 address and Google maps it back to me.)

    60. Re:Who cares by VTI9600 · · Score: 1

      (stupid slashdot thinks mysql's output are junk characters)

      ...because leading a comment with superfluous CLI output is exactly what a smarter Slashdot would want you to do, right?

      (Protip: There's a code-post mode if you really need to do that)

    61. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Probably because a static prefix makes it cheaper to track you, and they are probably being forced to track you.

    62. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Surely if you're abstracting things out in that way, IPv6 should look just like IPv4?

      And for tcpdump and IP addresses in logs, yes, sort of, but I suspect you'll find they'll get more familiar than you think they will.

      And also:

      "Most of these systems are behind NAT on connections that have dynamic ip addresses. I can't use ddns because of security policies."

      So half of your system of scripts and DB etc is there to deal with the kludge that is NAT? Niiice....

    63. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Corporations will pay ISP's to give static addresses to everyone, or rather the Government in the form of laws, just to make tracking people more convenient.

    64. Re:Who cares by Arancaytar · · Score: 1

      It's for the 10nd kind of people in the world. ;)

    65. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      idk my bff myspace?

    66. Re:Who cares by Arancaytar · · Score: 1

      Honestly, an IPv6 address is just four IPv4 addresses stacked together; the hex format shouldn't change much. If you can memorize those, you'll have no trouble. The human mind isn't all that feeble when you push it a bit.

    67. Re:Who cares by bbn · · Score: 5, Informative

      IPv6-addresses can actually be much easier to remember than IPv4. Why? Because there is a system to it.

      Here in the RIPE region there is only three possible prefixes for any address: 2001::, 2003:: and 2a0x::

      In practice you are only working with one or a few ISPs. This means the first two blocks are always going to be the same. My ISP has 2001:1448::.

      We got a /48. We happens to be number 201. So our addresses are all starting with 2001:1448:201::.

      Everything from that point on is something I decided. If I want easy to remember addresses I would choose easy to remember addresses. My primary server could be 2001:1448:201::1. I would remember it as the ::1 server.

      It is true that if you let your hosts autoconfigure to a random interface identifier that will be impossible to remember. But there is nothing stopping you from using manually configuration or DHCPv6 to number your hosts in a human friendly manner.

    68. Re:Who cares by paedobear · · Score: 0

      10nd? Are you a (pre .NET) VB programmer? 10rd surely.

    69. Re:Who cares by unixisc · · Score: 1

      Nor IPv4 either, by the same logic

    70. Re:Who cares by unixisc · · Score: 1

      First of all, you won't have a NAT. But the prefix will be common, and it's just the lower half of the address that needs to be scanned. 500 entries? From a 16-digit number, you can easily spread it out. You can even assign a few static addresses to each user, and a whole range of dynamic ones. It's all doable using DHCP6.

    71. Re:Who cares by unixisc · · Score: 1

      They can then assign a bunch of IPv6 addresses to every CCTV ;-)

    72. Re:Who cares by icebraining · · Score: 2

      So, write a script to preprocess the logs, replacing the IPs with names?

    73. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's the problem I have with IPv6 too and here's why:

      IPv6 addresses are written in hexadecimal

      Seperated by colons instead of dots

      Grouped by double-bytes instead of bytes

      Leading zeros are omitted

      Groups of zeros are omitted (only once)

      IPv6 SHOULD have had an extra few octaves instead of a whole new short bus addressing system. I'm sure most sysadmins will agree here!

    74. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only in the US my friend. / European.

    75. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't the idea of IPv6 that those servers you manage won't be behind NAT or have dynamic public IPs anymore?

    76. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Unless you are running Windows 8 which will helpfully rewrite your hosts file for you when you are done.

    77. Re:Who cares by marka63 · · Score: 2

      On a mac, system preferences -> sharing, and if you hit edit you can teach it how to register itself in the DNS.

    78. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Privacy extensions are already default on the major operating systems.

      Wiki has a nice summary of the ups and downs of IPv6 privacy, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPv6#Privacy

    79. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was thinking that it would be useful to have a DNS or hosts file entry for a named prefix, such that you can write something like:

      # ping mynet:5

      The idea is that you name the prefixes you normally use, and then you only have to remember the host portion. Of course, with a /64 that's still a lot to remember, but there's nothing saying you can't limit your addresses on small networks to a subset of the prefix, and then have a DNS or hosts entry that covers more than the /64. For example.

    80. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      uhh, if you have an ISP providing IPv6 and they keep changing your prefix they're doing it very very wrong

    81. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Most public IPv4 addresses are dynamic and change. With IPv6, ISPs will most likely hand out static prefixes.

    82. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, you're properly marked a troll because you *are* trolling by injecting inflammatory political bullshit into a conversation about technology. Is it that hard to understand, troll? Keep your fucking political bullshit to yourself, or please leave. Just shut the fuck up w/your politics, or FUCKING LEAVE.

    83. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess you've missed the real point, namely that your company will be happy to provide an IPv6 upgrade in exchange for $$$ in a few years from now....

    84. Re:Who cares by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      I could be wrong here but I suspect changing the prefix that is allocated through a router to a LAN is far more likely to cause problems with systems continuing to try and use stale addresses than changing the IP that is allocated to the WAN side of a NAT.

      Combine this with the fact that IPv6 prefixes of the size ISPs are likely to hand out (somewhere between /48 and /64 depending on how shitty they are) are plentiful compared to IPv4 addresses and I would expect more ISPs to adopt a "sticky IP"* policy with v6 than with v4.

      *That is IPs don't normally change but the ISP doesn't make any particular commitment about them not changing.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    85. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Like RFC 1751 (http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1751) for instance :)

      Although it does tend to come up with sequences that have some comedy smutty parts.

    86. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The privacy extension only hides the host, not the network. So you can hide the physical device, not the residence.

    87. Re:Who cares by jones_supa · · Score: 1

      I would have just added one octet to the front of the IP address, such as 255.255.255.255.255.

      Then we could additionally agree that 0.x.x.x.x would be somehow bridged to the respective address in IPv4 world. However you couldn't access the higher hosts from IPv4 without moving to the new addressing scheme.

    88. Re:Who cares by petermgreen · · Score: 2

      ranges were given out like candy to anyone who asked in the early days of the web. Corporations, Government and Academics made a land grab because they were the only people who could use the resource at the time.

      Remember in the early days of the internet there was only Class A, Class B and Class C (equivilent to /8, /16 and /24 nowadays), so if you were too big for a class C then you got a class B and if you were too big for a class B then you got a class A. This lead to many allocations being far bigger than they actually needed to be.

      I've heard that Glasgow Uni has a /8 that's never had more than 10 addresses exposed to the Internet.

      Sounds like it was either a myth or it was given back years ago. I don't recall ever seeing them on the /8 allocation list.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    89. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about the several P2P Name Resolution protocols? Those only stop working if you lose network connectivity. Going to complain about having to type in IP addresses when your network connection goes down?

    90. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Actually, it isn't.

      The inventors of the IPV6 standard started from the concept that "the web shouldn't be fractured" and "we need to develope the web for web developers".

      For instance, There are no True IPV4/IPV6 NAT or PAT protocols; how am I supposed to set up a proper DMZ without that? For the sake of "not fracturing the web" we've forgotten about where this all started; IE4, 5, and 6 integrating features for Windows update for Win9x into them which made dangerous features available for virus writers willing to do a little DLL reverse engineering. Don't think for a moment Google isn't going to do something similarily stupid with Chrome or Firefox if the ports for RPC or WMI become widely available.

      EUI-64 addressing is great for enterprise networking on so many levels, COPS, Supernet Routing, LAN RADIUS, many things are now easier. Using EUI-64 addresses on the internet, however, is a privacy and security nightmare; no matter where you connect from, someone can ID Your machine. DHCPv6 was just recently appended for this, and even then the implimentation doesn't pass the smell test.

      Then there's the fact you've got to Run a Dual-Stack (Run IPV4 and IPV6 interfaces) for, nevermind the fact the OS and most "legacy" Apps can't handle it, there's twice as much configuration to do on the OS End and even if you go to an entirely IPV6 transit network, you still need a "permanent" IPV4 to IPV6 transition technology to ensure the legacy apps still work, which means choosing between a few dozen solutions "designed to be temporary" because god knows you wouldn't want to run IPV4 on any of your internal, high-value, legacy systems for any length of time. Try scaling any of those solutions and they are FAIL.

      And if you REALLY look into IPV6 as an evolving standard, you'd see it's been rewritten maybe 3 or 4 times such that the, and just for the sake of arguement, just the addressing scheme has changed to make previous IPV6 devices incompatible with current or future IPV6 devices. I double dog dare you; do something clever with Multicast. Why would I impliment such a volatile standard?

      The people writing the standard are politically and financially motivated to inject a ton of outright dangerous and stupid garbage into the standards and it has taken years of work to start seriously working it out of the RFC's. When network engineers in companies go read the RFC's they think two things; "Jesus this is unworkable" and "Every time I read this, it's broken"; for that reason expect NAT and PAT To be the wave of the future until serious, expensive problems surface and ISP's start fighting for an intelligently designed system.

      If my ISP Hands me a IPV6 address, I'm going to look for a network appliance that impliments some form of IPV4 to IPV6 addressing scheme and leave the internal network IPV4 until the above is solved properly.

      BTW, I saw lower down a post by someone who said "we're a local government with 15k machines and each of them has an external network address"; your network is a massive security breech waiting to happen for reasons that are obvious.

    91. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most internet users are in a single broadcast domain and name resolution works on the intranet without DNS.

    92. Re:Who cares by Eil · · Score: 2

      I pointed out all the IPv4 address exhaustion issues, but was basically told to mind my own business. "No customer demand for this feature."

      Despite being in the business, your forgot one important thing: B2B hardware and software vendors almost universally design products only according to what their customers are actually asking for. It's not quite like the consumer sector where a company designs something new and tries to convince the masses that they need it via marketing. The enterprise is different. If the customer wants a faster horse, you damn well better offer a faster horse or they're going to buy your competitor's solution instead. You may be able to see a future need for a feature (like IPv6). Management sees it as unjustified engineering costs.

      Of course, the cynic in me also wonders how many vendors are putting off explicit IPv6 support in their products in order to manufacture a crisis when IPv4 addresses run out, a la Y2K bug. "Oh noes, we need IPv6 in all our stuff, won't you help us out? Here's gobs of money for consulting and durable goods, just make our shit work again!"

      Finally, even though IPv6 is starting to take off in the consumer and hosting space, most large internal networks are going to be mainly IPv4 for a good long time yet. We're talking decades, here. Large production business networks are loathe to change and they simply do not upgrade critical systems just because it makes sense to do so. That Sun box you helped engineer, it's going to be in the trash heap long before IPv6 is widespread in the enterprise.

    93. Re:Who cares by jbolden · · Score: 1

      The reason people starting using dynamic IPv4 addresses was not disliking servers but contention. When v4 addresses were abundant no one had to worry. As the space became more crowded by late 80's / early 90's the idea of slicing up the network to make routing as simple as possible was dropped.

      With v6 we return to a situation where addresses are plentiful and fast routing becomes possible again. It becomes easy for them to tie you v6 address to physical connections and use table free routing. That's a huge win for IPSs.

    94. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not store those addresses in a dns server? You get the best of both world: tcpdump and all other programs that can use reverse dns lookup work perfectly and you can still handle dynamic ip addresses.

      So make it serverid.customerid.yourcompany.com. If you have the dns facing outward you can even use it outside of the company!

    95. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ILOM user here (HP customer). Also IPv6 ready. And I've been demanding IPv6 on iLO for years.

    96. Re:Who cares by mellon · · Score: 2

      Just start working with it. You will find that cut and paste works in the cases where you really have to put in an IPv6 address—it's what I do. If you really have to type in an IPv6 address, it _is_ a pain in the neck, but it's also a rarity. I think the major modern operating systems support DHCPv6 at this point, so DNS updates will work if you require DHCPv6. If you just set everything up to use ND, of course that won't update the DNS unless you also have a pretty fancy Windows/Active Directory setup.

    97. Re:Who cares by jbolden · · Score: 1

      You are absolutely right on this. Though I blame lack of government help here. Had the government set hard dates for cross over points and shepherd this whole process the Suns of the world would have built their ILOM to support v6 before customers needed it.

    98. Re:Who cares by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Just start working with it. You will find that cut and paste works in the cases where you really have to put in an IPv6 address

      What I've found is that a lot of IPv6 interfaces don't work well with copy/paste. Windows especially. It's OK when dealing with the 4 IPv4 octets but the 16 IPv6 can become a real PITA. Not to mention configuring new appliances like firewalls where the UI is a text based pre-install environment. Not saying that IPv6 is bad, or that we shouldn't be trying to move to IPv6 ASAP but there are some usability kinks that should be ironed out.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    99. Re:Who cares by jbolden · · Score: 2

      There are over 10^50 atoms on earth. v6 is big it ain't that big.

    100. Re:Who cares by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      IPv6 SHOULD have had an extra few octaves

      Well, I guess musicians need IPv6 too...

      I'm sure most sysadmins will agree here!

      I disagree - I have no inclination to type our 128 bit addresses in dotted-octet notation when I can do it much quicker using hex...

    101. Re:Who cares by shentino · · Score: 2

      The migration is being obstructed by people with hoards of v4's they got back when the addresses were plentiful, as well as ISPs that find more profit in milking their IP space for all its worth and making people pay for a business connection to get out of NAT...and also enforcing "no servers allowed" in their residential contracts.

      Nowadays, stashes of v4's are a gold mine and people holding them are not going to let their windfall go without a fight. Instead, they are going to squat on them, and milk their inventory of v4's for all its worth.

      Whether we like it or not, the v4 black market is here, and it's not going away. If ICANN and the internet registries actually had balls enough to revoke allocations from people that didn't need them, or claimed they did but then were caught selling them on the black market, we would not be in as bad of a mess.

      Also, being able to NAT your residential customers and milk business grade fees for real IPs is quite lucrative for an ISP.

      Entrenched interests are making a fortune selling off v4's and/or extracting premiums from business class users that are able and willing to pay to get out of NAT, and it is only going to die when it's pried from their cold dead hands.

      V6 needs to arrive, but greed by hoarders and providers, and pacifism on the part of internet registries have aggravated the crisis and made it worse than it needs to be.

    102. Re:Who cares by jbolden · · Score: 2

      There are no True IPV4/IPV6 NAT or PAT protocols; how am I supposed to set up a proper DMZ without that?

      Firewalls between physical connections.

      Say you have 2 networks A and B. A has a firewall on it which goes in from the internet. It blocks all traffic to or from any non A address. The connection between A and B goes through a firewall. That firewall blocks any traffic to or from B that's not routed to A.

    103. Re:Who cares by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

      No, that doesn't, but acting like the issue is settled and done with does. Pick something less controversial and more agreed on next time. There are plenty of examples you could have used to support your point which are not politically charged topics.

      In other words, play it safe - use gay marriage as your example next time.

      What's wrong with euthanasia, eugenics, or stem cell research?

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    104. Re:Who cares by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      The inventors of the IPV6 standard started from the concept that "the web shouldn't be fractured" and "we need to develope the web for web developers".

      First of all, the design of IPv6 has relatively nothing to do with the web. The web is just one application that works over the Internet.

      For instance, There are no True IPV4/IPV6 NAT or PAT protocols; how am I supposed to set up a proper DMZ without that?

      If you think you need NAT or PAT to set up a DMZ, I sincerely hope no one actually lets you loose trying to set one up. Would you care to explain why you think you need these technologies?

      Using EUI-64 addresses on the internet, however, is a privacy and security nightmare; no matter where you connect from, someone can ID Your machine.

      That would be why IPv6 has privacy extensions, which are enabled by default on most systems. Your connections will not come from an EUI-64 address, they will come from pseudorandomly assigned dynamic addresses that change every few minutes. This makes IPv6 no more trackable than IPv4, and in some situations a whole lot less trackable.

      Then there's the fact you've got to Run a Dual-Stack (Run IPV4 and IPV6 interfaces) for, nevermind the fact the OS and most "legacy" Apps can't handle it, there's twice as much configuration to do on the OS End

      C-o-n-f-i-g-u-r-a-t-i-o-n.... no, sorry, you've lost me... what is there to configure? IPv6 is largely auto-configuring. True, there are rare situations where you might need to do some manual configuration, but that adds about 30 seconds more work.

      And if you REALLY look into IPV6 as an evolving standard, you'd see it's been rewritten maybe 3 or 4 times such that the, and just for the sake of arguement, just the addressing scheme has changed to make previous IPV6 devices incompatible with current or future IPV6 devices.

      [citation needed]. I've not found any such problems in over 10 years' setting up IPv6 networks.

      >If my ISP Hands me a IPV6 address, I'm going to look for a network appliance that impliments some form of IPV4 to IPV6 addressing scheme and leave the internal network IPV4 until the above is solved properly.

      Trying to make an IPv4-only network talk to an IPv6 internet is going to be way more trouble for you than just dual-stacking. Seriously, it really does Just Work without any serious problems. On the other hand, if you insist on imagining nonexistent problems and make life hard for yourself in an attempt to avoid your imaginary problems, I'm sure no one else on the interent could really care less - good luck with it.

      BTW, I saw lower down a post by someone who said "we're a local government with 15k machines and each of them has an external network address"; your network is a massive security breech waiting to happen for reasons that are obvious.

      If you think that not having a globally scopped IP address significantly decreases your chances of a security problem then I sincerely hope you aren't involved in anything security related.

    105. Re:Who cares by JSBiff · · Score: 2

      Is abc1:2345::10 that much harder? Ok, solution:

      In your OS, set an environment variable that persists across logins:
      6NET=abc1:2345

      Then when using networking tools:
      ping %6NET%::10

      Was that so hard?

    106. Re:Who cares by jittles · · Score: 1

      You mean 11rd. 10 is definitely 10nd. And 01st. Where did you learn your binary?

    107. Re:Who cares by cjjjer · · Score: 2

      It all depends on how you look at it.

      "6732:87fb:87fa:12a9::54d8"
      "6732:87fb:87fa:72a9::54d8"

      Notice the difference right away.

    108. Re:Who cares by Aqualung812 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Calculating masks in your head will still be a more difficult task

      Why would you do this, unless you work for a large ISP?

      With IPv6, everyone uses /64 for each broadcast domain, cutting the address exactly in 1/2. It is easy.

      Devices that need statics are DNS servers and routers, and neither should be changed fequently. Also, you're likely to use simple addresses for them, so it will be:
      NetworkPrefix::1, Network::2, Network::3, etc.

      For me, I have 2601:d:881:b::1 for a default gateway, and 2601:d:881:b::101 for my DNS server #1, and 2601:d:881:b::102 for DNS server #2.

      That isn't hard to remember, and it isn't hard to type. What exactly is the problem?

      --
      Grammer Nazis - I mod you "troll" unless you actually add something on-topic. Yes, I know I have mispellings in my sig.
    109. Re:Who cares by Miamicanes · · Score: 2

      > I am yet to see DNS fail badly. I have seen plenty of people who don't understand it say it does, when the problem is invariably routing or a firewall.

      Note the key phrase, "who don't understand it" and its modifiers "routing or a firewall". There's a HELL of a lot of people who happen to fall into that category, and whose frustration goes off the scale when something fails to work because the slightest configuration problem will break it, and if you manage to avoid a subtle semantic bug in a zonefile somewhere, factors upstream that are beyond your control can still break it in ways that are almost impossible to distinguish from that same hypothetical zonefile bug. Bind is a cruel, heartless, sadistic, and demanding master. I struggle to think of anything that universally strikes fear in the heart of otherwise brave men than "Can you set up the DNS for us from scratch? We registered the domain yesterday. The computer's over there, and here's the Ubuntu installation DVD."

      DNS only "just works" when some OTHER unfortunate soul has already set it up and spent the day troubleshooting it for you. Worst of all, there's a big, fuzzy gray area of "works for me, and apparently for him, but not for you for some unknown reason".

      So, yes... for 17 or 18 artisan-level gurus who've achieved Englightenment, DNS is easy and straightforward to set up. For the other 99.9% of individuals unfortunate enough to find themselves tasked with the duty of setting it up at the server end, it's pure hell, and Bind was a punishment invented by God for sadistic entertainment purposes.

      When I talk about "DNS Failure", I'm not talking about it from the perspective of pure end users who connect to a network and make use of DNS that somebody else has already gotten to work for them. I'm talking about the unrelenting hell of being someone who lacks control of his upstream network configuration trying to set up his own DNS server and make sense of errors that could be caused by just about anything, or (almost) nothing at all, and can take a relative eternity to troubleshoot when it happens.

    110. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So NAT is screwing you over by preventing you from using DNS, and you somehow DON'T want IPv6. Hurr.

    111. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Back in the dark ages, when the DWP got this assignment, the options were three classes, class A is 2^24 addresses, class B is 2^16 and class C is 2^8. Well, it's pretty obvious the DWP will need more than a class C, and it's certainly conceivable they'd need more than a class B too.

      What we have now is CIDR, Classless routing. Addresses can be assigned more flexibly under CIDR. This was intended to buy us some time to migrate to IPv6. So how about it, have you been migrating to IPv6?

      Note that just because the addresses aren't _routed_ to the public Internet doesn't mean they're not in use.

    112. Re:Who cares by SQLGuru · · Score: 2

      If you code in a C-based language:
      00 is 00st
      01 is 00nd
      10 is 10rd
      11 is 11th

      Which was the parent's point.

    113. Re:Who cares by pclminion · · Score: 2

      We got a /48. We happens to be number 201. So our addresses are all starting with 2001:1448:201::.

      When you've got a block that's bigger than the entire IPv4 Internet, you know you're cool.

    114. Re:Who cares by suso · · Score: 2

      You're missing the oppurtunity to use hexidecimal characters in memorable ways in your IPv6 addresses though:

      2001::FEED:FACE:DEAD:BEEF (For non-vegans)
      2001::C0DA:0B0E:BA55:C1EF (For musicians)
      2001::CA11:D011:FACE:BABE (For a good time)
      2001::FEE1:DEAD:BABE:B00B (For necrophiliacs)

    115. Re:Who cares by PhotoJim · · Score: 1

      That's analogous to wishing we still used 4- or 5-digit phone numbers because 10-, 11- and 12-digit numbers are too hard. :)

      Interestingly, phone number length is becoming a non-issue because it seems most users program numbers into their mobile phones and use the programmed list instead of memorizing the numbers.

      Give us a few years and I'm quite confident no one will worry about how long an IPv6 IP is. That's what DNS is for - to make it so that you can find it with an easy-to-remember name.

    116. Re:Who cares by unixisc · · Score: 1

      The prefixes may be static, but using DHCP6 and defining a certain range as a pool, dynamic addresses can be created, for any duration. Change them, say, every hour, and it'd be impossible to attack that particular node. Simply knowing the prefix is of little use to a malicious user.

    117. Re:Who cares by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      Calling climate change a "disaster" just makes you a Chicken Little, not a troll.

      Incidentally, I'd consider faith in IPv4 re-use to be on a par with ecomental "solutions" to climate change. It's bothersome, it's fiddling round the edges, and it won't do a damn thing to avert the need for more change later.

      But either way, it's just change. If you look around and notice that you don't live in a cave and eat mud, that may clue you in on whether change is something that humans can cope with, without having to run around shrieking "Meesa bombad scared! Wesa all gonna die!"

      Now that's trolling.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    118. Re:Who cares by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      Now many sell the IPv4 addresses for about 50EUR a month. This because they say that there are not enough of them. This way with NO investment they can ask 50 EUR more from any (small) business.

      Once IPv6 is around, they can not do that anymore and small businesses will just buy cheaper personal accounts.

      Hah. Fat chance.

      They'll just let through ONE IPv6 address direct to you, calling the rest "firewalled off for your safety". And advertise it as "firewalled for your protection" and if you want, you can get another prefix for another $50/month.

      They'll even advertise it as a feature - saying you don't need an IPv6 firewall - the ISP will happily do it for you.

    119. Re:Who cares by jonadab · · Score: 1

      > Just apply the real cure already... This is so ridiculous.

      The real cure -- the ONLY real cure -- for IP address scarcity is to stop allocating huge blocks of addresses that aren't needed or used. This /8 allocated to the English government is a drop in the bucket. Most entities that have address blocks assigned to them (by any mechanism other than DHCP lease) have much larger blocks than they can possibly use -- several times larger, in the typical case.

      IPv6, in particular, would not solve the problem even if everyone switched over to using it exclusively tomorrow. It would push back the critical date, but if we over-allocate IPv6 addresses the way we have done with IPv4 ("Nevermind what we need: addresses are basically free, so get the largest block you can"), it would only push back the critical date by 10-20 years at most.

      Go ahead, laugh. Medium-sized businesses will want at least a /16, just in case they ever grow to Fortune-500 size and then need to assign a separate /32 to each employee. Governments will want separate /8 for each department, just because they can get it. If we skip IPv6 and go straight to IPv8, with 1024-bit addresses, people will want to assign a block of 18446744073709551616 addresses to each of their iPhones, just in case they ever want to use them as server farms.

      The demand for free addresses that you can get even if you don't have any real use for them is effectively infinite. If ICANN charged fifty cents a year per address, to be marked up slightly (say, to seventy-five cents) by the regionals and in turn by ISPs, the whole problem would just go away.

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    120. Re:Who cares by Cimexus · · Score: 2

      Er this is completely standard. I've been on native IPv6 for two years now, on my standard residential $29.95/month DSL plan, and also have a block way bigger than the entire IPv4 internet. Though mine's only a /56 rather than a /48 (oh noes, only 4,722,366,482,869,645,213,696 globally-addressable IPs for my home LAN??)

      That's the whole beauty of IPv6 :)

    121. Re:Who cares by Cimexus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yep. Been on native IPv6 for 2 years now and I have not ONCE needed to memorise, copy down or type/enter a IPv6 address for any reason. This is a non-issue.

    122. Re:Who cares by Cimexus · · Score: 1

      My home DSL connection (which has been on native IPv6 for 2+ years now) assigns a static /56 prefix to each customer. Not saying that all ISPs will do it that way, I don't see any reason why they WOULDN'T do this.

    123. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just dont so it with windows 8. It may refuse to honor, or even wipe out your hosts.

    124. Re:Who cares by ralphdaugherty · · Score: 1

      And now some people that don't anyone to see what I have to say about IPV6 are modding me troll. IPV6 people have some serious issues. In my opinion their behavior of modding down opinions against them should raise questions about their agenda. And perhaps my point is striking too close to home.

      This post rated troll. I've been on slashdot for 13 years and have excellent karma. What we have here are IPV6 censors, not moderators.

      My post:

      As always, People who don't want anyone to see what I have to say about IPV6 mod my post down to hell. My wishes are that they go there too.

      Post modded redundant and overrated (and there are no positive mods to be overrated)):

      When IPV6 is what we have to work with, we will be swarmed by those bastard botnets with no way to block that many IP addresses that will be used to attack.

      The IPV6 crowd pooh poohs this and says blocking IP addresses is not the answer. Well not for an established users, but for registration and spam posting it is the answer. Or was.

      I will get off the internet before dealing with innumerable attack vectors from our botnet friends in Russia and China. The loss of my little sites will be no big loss. But everyone remaining will be inundated, and they won't be able to deal with it either.

      Imo the botnet criminals have been trying to force the use of IPV6 by getting all new ranges of IPV4 allocated as soon as possible. Certainly that's what I've seen these last few years from logging spam attack IP addresses.

      Rather than IPV6 globally and IPV4 internally, I think IPV6 should be what the countries that attack us, who just happen to have very large populations, can use for themselves. Do you have any idea how many IP address ranges we are attacked from in places like Latvia? Let them do their attacking with IPV6. Good riddance.

    125. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Maybe encode it into something more easy to remember, for example choose a noun - verb - adjective - noun combination from a list like the following:

      hex - noun - verb - adjective
      0 - ants - avoid - awful
      1 - bears - bear - brown
      2 - chimps - call - crazy
      3 - dogs - doom - dumb
      4 - elephants - eat - evil
      5 - flies - fly - free
      6 - goats - get - great
      7 - hippos - help - helpless
      8 - imp - imply - idiotic
      9 - jackals - jump - juicy
      a - koalas - know - kind
      b - llamas - lose - lame
      c - mice - meet - modest
      d - newts - nest - nice
      e - oppossums - obstruct - obese
      f - pandas - protect - purple

      Then an address like beef:063a:4177:3434::0001 would become "llamas obstruct obese pandas, ants get dumb koalas, elephants avoid helpless hippos, dogs eat dumb elephants, omission, ants avoid awful bears"
      Decoding is trivial, because you just have to look at the first letter of each word.

    126. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You may disagree but I'm sure the vast majority would agree actually when taken into context, the fact that most places still won't budge off Windows XP so I doubt the network administrators will want to move onto a new hexadecimal system where they'd be thinking that IPv6 could do with being more like IPv4 by having a few more octlets and being decimal rather than hexadecimal. Don't get me started by the use of colons instead of dots.

    127. Re:Who cares by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      I pointed out all the IPv4 address exhaustion issues, but was basically told to mind my own business. "No customer demand for this feature." Never mind that a few years down the pipe, customers would be very unhappy they didn't have it.

      Honestly for the vast majority of buisnesses there is no need to move their internal communication to IPv6. Afaict the only buisnesses that are likely to have trouble running out of private IPs are those who are both massive and offer IP based services to their customers (e.g. comcast).

      Systems that need internet access to servers on the internet may need some way of accessing v6 only servers in the future but my guess is that we are still a long way away from even small-time websites giving up their IPv4 presense. Also remember that in a few years time name based virtual hosting for SSL sites will start to become more practical as windows XP and older versions of andriod gradually fade away.

      What will really be hit if v6 is not widely deployed soon is peer to peer communications. Large scale NATs are likely to be far less friendly to peer to peer than the small NATs found in homes today. Unfortunately I suspect there are more than a few in the ISP industry who would love to see bittorrent and it's ilk gone.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    128. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Note that just because the addresses aren't _routed_ to the public Internet doesn't mean they're not in use.

      This is why they should be using the private IP ranges, if they not exposed to the WAN they don't need an /8 it really is THAT simple.

    129. Re:Who cares by TCM · · Score: 0

      Retarded. Nothing more to say.

      --
      Of course it runs NetBSD. BTC: 1NT7QvbetmANwaMzhpVL6
    130. Re:Who cares by TCM · · Score: 1

      When my car breaks, I let people work on it who have a clue. I would never try to work on it myself, because I acknowledge that it takes a certain skill to be able to do that.

      Why there are people trying to work on networks who don't know this simple fact is beyond me. If you don't know what you're doing, you plug in your little blackbox router and dial your support number when something doesn't work. If you want to setup a "complex" network with DNS, you better know your stuff.

      And BIND is a piece of cake, seriously. It looks like you belong in the "dial your support number" group.

      --
      Of course it runs NetBSD. BTC: 1NT7QvbetmANwaMzhpVL6
    131. Re:Who cares by TCM · · Score: 1

      There are no True IPV4/IPV6 NAT or PAT protocols; how am I supposed to set up a proper DMZ without that?

      The fact that you're asking this question means you probably shouldn't. Instead, let people do it who have a clue.

      --
      Of course it runs NetBSD. BTC: 1NT7QvbetmANwaMzhpVL6
    132. Re:Who cares by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      IPv6 is going to suck in other ways. There's so much that doesn't really work for it. Home routers need to be upgraded. Network discovery has some subtle bugs on some operating systems. I see documents as recently as 2007 discussing changes or tweaks for core protocols. And so forth. I think IPv6 used by many poeple today relies a lot on hand editing scripts to configure addresses and routes and create 6in4 tunnels. The plug-and-go part that the average consumer will need is not quite here yet.

      Just last week AT&T send an email about being ready for IPv6 and that it's coming soon, with a link to click to see if I'm ready. And guess what, I was ready except for the new router I got from AT&T earlier this year which needs firmware upgrade "when it's ready".

    133. Re:Who cares by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Calling climate change a "disaster" just makes you a Chicken Little, not a troll.

      If you don't think it's a disaster you haven't thought much about it. There is going to be a LOT of upheaval as the climate changes. It isn't an impendinjg disaster, but in 50 years there's going to be trouble.

      But either way, it's just change. If you look around and notice that you don't live in a cave and eat mud, that may clue you in on whether change is something that humans can cope with, without having to run around shrieking "Meesa bombad scared! Wesa all gonna die!"

      The human species won't be wiped out, but many others will. We don't know how dire the situation is. You say "it's just change," but so is going blind or having blindness cured. Having your spouse die is "just change". Getting married is "just change". Buying a house is "just change". Having your home forclosed is "just change". Having your house flood because of climate change is "just change". having your fishing wiped out when fishing is your livlihood because BP spilled millions of barrels of oil in the gulf is "just change". BP going bankrupt because nobody wants petrolium any more is "just change" but try selling that to the shareholders.

      Incidentally, I'd consider faith in IPv4 re-use to be on a par with ecomental "solutions" to climate change.

      Ecomental? What a stupid word, I hope it doesn't catch on. From the urban dictionary I'd say it's a tea party phrase so I guess I don't need to worry. As to climate change, the solution is to work on energy efficiency and energy solutions that don't involve burning fossil fuels; renewable fuels don't release million year old carbon, it simply puts carbon back in that was extracted from the atmosphere.

      What's wrong with windmills on roofs of multi-story commercial buildings?

      Calling enviromentalists names and saying there are no ramificications to climate change is like saying "Bullshit, we're not going to run out of ip4 addresses! It isn't the end of the world!" Well, running out of addresses and global warming are neither one the end of the world, but you're not going to like it.

    134. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I find hex numbers to be much easier to remember and read than decimal numbers.

      eg 4391= 0xABCD or try 65518= FFEE or 255=FF etc.

    135. Re:Who cares by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      And network discovery doesn't always work very smoothly. I've been noticing some oddities on MacOS lion, like accepting router advertisements being off by default. If you ignore router advertisements none of this automatic stuff works at all except for link-local addressing. Maybe not a big issue if you use DHCPv6 or DNS, probably why on corporate ethernet things just worked but using PPP to an embedded device had troubles.

    136. Re:Who cares by doshell · · Score: 1

      And how is this any different from IPv4, where the residence gets a public address from the ISP? Unless your ISP is using carrier-grade NAT, that is.

      --
      Score: i, Imaginary
    137. Re:Who cares by maxwell+demon · · Score: 2

      2001::0192:0168:0000:0001 (For IPv4 fans)
      2001::436F:6D70:7574:6572 (For people who know ASCII)

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    138. Re:Who cares by doshell · · Score: 1

      Even if your argument held water (which I don't think it does in a properly managed network), it seems rather silly to trade global end-to-end connectivity and other IPv6 niceties such as autoconfiguration for the convenience of being able to memorize network addresses or pass them over the phone.

      --
      Score: i, Imaginary
    139. Re:Who cares by bbn · · Score: 1

      Then we could additionally agree that 0.x.x.x.x would be somehow bridged to the respective address in IPv4 world. However you couldn't access the higher hosts from IPv4 without moving to the new addressing scheme.

      That is what they did. Except instead of adding "0." you need to add "::ffff:" in front like this ::ffff:x.x.x.x

      This wont give you access to IPv4 hosts though. Because when you think about it, you might realise that IP packets come with a source and a destination address. How are you going to fix the extended address in the source field? Without a valid source address the destination host can not reply.

    140. Re:Who cares by fm6 · · Score: 1

      You do realize that makes you a socialist? Right? I'll bet you even put Poupon on your burger.

    141. Re:Who cares by bbn · · Score: 1

      Rather than IPV6 globally and IPV4 internally, I think IPV6 should be what the countries that attack us, who just happen to have very large populations, can use for themselves. Do you have any idea how many IP address ranges we are attacked from in places like Latvia? Let them do their attacking with IPV6. Good riddance.

      You ARE a troll - or maybe just an uneducated idiot.

      Latvia? It is a small country of 2 million people, smaller than many cities in the US. They are member of the European Union and NATO. Are you suggesting that the US should copy Iran and segregate itself from the Internet? If even EU and NATO are labelled as "countries that attack us" what is left?

    142. Re:Who cares by fm6 · · Score: 1

      Honestly for the vast majority of buisnesses there is no need to move their internal communication to IPv6.

      So what? Very few servers are deployed on internal networks anymore. By the time I started working for their hardware division in 2007, Sun had stopped making desk-side servers completely. Except for hackers who have to have everything at their fingertips, nobody deploys a server anywhere except a data center. And in most cases, the easiest, cheapest way for you to establish a connection to an ILOM in a remote data center is over a public network.using SSH or SSL.

      And in the next few years it's going to be harder and harder for you to obtain an IPv4 address for that ILOM.

    143. Re:Who cares by fm6 · · Score: 1

      Wasn't Mr. Little's problem that he was just a little stupid? On Slashdot, being perceived as stupid makes you a troll.

      Incidentally, I'd consider faith in IPv4 re-use to be on a par with ecomental "solutions" to climate change. It's bothersome, it's fiddling round the edges, and it won't do a damn thing to avert the need for more change later.

      I agree on both points. But just try to tell somebody that just bought a Prius that they're not "saving the planet".

      it's just change.

      What do you mean "just change". Yeah, change is often necessary, but it's usually painful. People fight wars and revolutions over change, and millions die in the process. I'm confident there will be wars over climate change, especially if we try to control it with geo-engineering, since control of the planetary thermostat is really going to matter to a lot of people.

      At least nobody's willing to die to prevent IPv6 from taking over. Thank God for small favors.

    144. Re:Who cares by fm6 · · Score: 1

      Why would an ISP implement IPv^ if they can upsell fixed IPv4 addresses and put everybody else behind local addresses.

      Because (a) not all of their customers are home users who don't need public IP addresses and (b) because they want to sell services that they can't sell without IPv6.

      Comcast is an ISP whose tendency to gouge and rip off its customers is simply not in doubt. (One particularly choice tactic: padding your bill with special fees with no explanation, and then removing those fees when you complain — which, of course, many people never do.) And yet Comcast began asking for volunteers to move to IPv6 3 years ago.

    145. Re:Who cares by fm6 · · Score: 1

      You mean the new HP server. Oracle has not had a lot of luck turning Sun around.

    146. Re:Who cares by fm6 · · Score: 1

      Sigh. What exactly do you think "straw man argument" means? It's certainly not a fancy way of saying "your approach is stupid".

    147. Re:Who cares by fm6 · · Score: 1

      Who said anything about DDNS? If these addresses are behind a NAT, then you have to tunnel into the local network to access any of these systems, right? So why not have a local DNS server?

    148. Re:Who cares by fluffy99 · · Score: 1

      I won't even get into how IPv6 makes it much easier to track you.

      Because that's nonsense? (Almost) Everybody implements the privacy extensions, so your world-visible address is random and changes every 10-ish minutes.

      I am aware of the privacy extensions. They are a hack, last minute bandaid that usually causes just as many problems as the glaring privacy issue they try to fix. It's akin to periodically changing your mac address. It's as fucked up as using NAT.

    149. Re:Who cares by ralphdaugherty · · Score: 1

      well, buddy, I'm certainly no troll. Been around almost as long as you have and have a good posting history on technical issues.

      The fact that you know how small Latvia is and didn't correlate what I told you about the incredible range of IP addresses that are used to attack from there, just one frickin example btw, chosen for precisely what you were able to glean from it, tells me I have to spell things out for people at a level that is disturbing.

      Perhaps you can't understand what incredibly wide range of IP adddresses are for such a small place, don't understand that that was just one small example.

      Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I assume someone with similar longevity to me here is not a technical dummy.

    150. Re:Who cares by suso · · Score: 1

      Haha, nice. Actually, your IPv4 one IS a good idea for people who complain about not being able to remember.

    151. Re:Who cares by fm6 · · Score: 1

      No, that doesn't, but acting like the issue is settled and done with does.

      I think it was pretty clear that I was talking about the emotional, nasty reaction the deniers inflict on climate scientists. Pointing out that an argument is dominated by angry accusations of fraud and conspiracy does not in itself say that the argument is wrong.

      There's also the little question of whether the issue is settled. But somehow I suspect that's not a topic I should bother discussing with you....

      There are plenty of workarounds using the existing system

      Which don't always work. If they did, address depletion wouldn't be such a hot topic.

      and you seem to have ruled out the possibility that anybody would ever be able to add such functionality in the future.

      That's correct. I asked if a future upgrade would be possible, and was told no. I don't remember exactly why. Sun actually had a different ILOM module that already supported IPv6, but switching over was deemed too expensive. Of course, the fact that this module belonged to a competing product group may have been a factor...

      It's not likely that we're going to see ipv6 within then next 3 years anyhow,

      Huh? My ISP has had support for it for a couple of years. So does my computer. So do many hosting providers (including one I used to work for). Unfortunately, my router doesn't support it (even though I just bought it) but routers that do are widely available. The open-source ROM DD-WRT has had IPv6 support for over a year..

      The big issue is that there still aren't any major networks you need IPv6 to handle. Many support it, but they also support IPv4 That will certainly change, and that's driven by simple necessity. The 32-bit address space is gone.

    152. Re:Who cares by GNUALMAFUERTE · · Score: 1

      It's their public IPs that change, therefore I would need Dynamic DNS. And, no, I don't tunnel, I port forward.

      --
      WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
    153. Re:Who cares by GNUALMAFUERTE · · Score: 1

      You completely missed my point. I want IPv6. I know the feature-set, and I've already implemented several IPv6-ready networks. I know we need it, and I know changing will be for the best.

      But I can't stop feeling that the long addresses are gonna suck.

      It's like when you decide to move to a big city, and you know it's gonna rock in so many ways, but you are still gonna miss that little shithole of a town, even when you know you have no future there.

      It's not a technical argument against IPv6, it's nostalgia.

      --
      WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
    154. Re:Who cares by GNUALMAFUERTE · · Score: 1

      I actually do this with MAC addresses.

      For instance, at the Costa Galana Hotel each CCTV DVR has a MAc like this: C0:57:A6:A1:AE:09 (That's COSTAGALA, and E09 stands for Equipo 09)

      --
      WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
    155. Re:Who cares by GNUALMAFUERTE · · Score: 1

      What part of 500 hosts on dynamic IPs you are not understanding?

      I ain't gonna use DDNS.

      --
      WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
    156. Re:Who cares by fm6 · · Score: 1

      Your security policy is weird. It's OK to expose network systems on the public Internet, but not to give them names?

      Anyway, we were talking about IP addresses you had memorized.

    157. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure DNS failing is a "real issue". I was recently looking at enterprise grade 5 9s high availability failover systems and they don't allow IP addresses, only FQDNs are allowed.

    158. Re:Who cares by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Yes but only by this and last decade's definition. Used to be both parties liked providing policy to help industries coordinate.

    159. Re:Who cares by marka63 · · Score: 1

      I would suggest that you really should be looking at your security policies to see if they make sense. DDNS with TSIG or SIG(0) is as secure if not more so than whatever script you are running. This is a decade old technology that has been used in some of the biggest companies in the world, read "Fortune 100" and bigger.

    160. Re:Who cares by fm6 · · Score: 1

      But no more! Aren't you glad we got rid of that Socialist Eisenhower? Did you know that under his regime the top income tax bracket was 85%?

      He got away with a lot because he supposedly won some stupid war. I'll bet it was all a scam!

    161. Re:Who cares by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      But memorizing and manually writing in addresses is? Seriously if the main complaint of v6 is the address are too long to type/memorize, then i think they got it about right.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    162. Re:Who cares by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Its not just Eisenhower. Richard Nixon was considerably to his right. Our current Marxist Kenyan is more or less doing what Nixon would have done in most areas.

    163. Re:Who cares by GNUALMAFUERTE · · Score: 1

      I absolutely agree with you. This are distributed CCTV systems for several customers. They are supposed to be able to access them anywhere, on any computer with a browser, any OS, without installing anything. They don't want DDNS because that would permanently expose their IPs. Instead, they use a web service that redirects them to the right IP. Their IPs change every 24hs.

      Of course that's not security. The systems are all very secure anyway, all they expose is a very well proven web service. Childishly hiding your IP address is not security. But that's what they want. Go and convince them, then I'll happily switch.

      --
      WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
    164. Re:Who cares by GNUALMAFUERTE · · Score: 1

      It is weird. It's not my security police. If it where up to me, I would happily use DDNS. My customers perceive IPs changing every 24hs and authentication to get the new IP as good security. I don't agree, but then again, how often do people in IT agree with customers?

      --
      WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
    165. Re:Who cares by fm6 · · Score: 1

      OK, but that still doesn't explain why " I have tens of IPs in my head, which I access daily by memory."

    166. Re:Who cares by fm6 · · Score: 1

      Now that you mention it, Nixon did spend a suspicious amount of time in Communist countries.

      Really, this conspiracy goes way back. Consider the silly "all men are equal" doctrine. Obviously a justification for dividing up the wealth!

    167. Re:Who cares by smash · · Score: 1

      You're doing it wrong.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    168. Re:Who cares by smash · · Score: 1

      Or, you know... you could do it properly and use DNS. If your DNS is broken you have more serious issues.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    169. Re:Who cares by smash · · Score: 1

      Bind config hard? You obviously don't remember the days of sendmail before M4.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    170. Re:Who cares by smash · · Score: 1

      Hasn't been a way of blocking windows this easily since running on high TCP ports that 16 bit winsock can't support :D

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    171. Re:Who cares by smash · · Score: 1

      Network administration: you're doing it wrong.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    172. Re:Who cares by smash · · Score: 1

      Well the customer has a choice of sticking with the brain damage (and running ipv4 only), or fixing it in transition.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    173. Re:Who cares by smash · · Score: 1

      They're modding you down because you don't know what you're talking about.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    174. Re:Who cares by smash · · Score: 1

      To write them the same as IPv4, you'd need 16 octets. The current way they do it is fine. There's shorthand as well which IPv4 doesn't support.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    175. Re:Who cares by smash · · Score: 1

      As ADSL is phased out (or ADSL3 comes out) and fibre (yes, non-us spelling) is rolled out people will need to upgrade endpoints anyway.

      There are plenty of internode customers here in australia who are running ipv6 just fine without even knowing it.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    176. Re:Who cares by smash · · Score: 1

      To be fair, that sun server is likely now obsolete, and either retired or planning to be retired.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    177. Re:Who cares by smash · · Score: 1

      Joining private networks from different companies both using 10/8 sucks.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    178. Re:Who cares by smash · · Score: 1

      Internode are already doing ipv6 and don't do this. ISPs arent in the business of being assholes for the sake of it.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    179. Re:Who cares by fm6 · · Score: 1

      The system (Sun Fire X4640) came out in late 2009, so ordinarily it would still be around. Alas, it used Opteron processors, and Oracle decided to stop buying Opterons.

      And I just discovered something something amusing. When I was there, there were 2 or 3 competing ILOM modules within Sun. It turns out that Oracle decided to get rid of all but one — and that one support IPv6!

    180. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But how are you using it? Is it a small home network only managed by you? Is it a small corporate network where there is no interference with your IT environment or is it a large, world wide network with contractors and well meaning idiots being called in by other idiots to "help" you?

  2. Must be a UK citizen to sign the petition. by i286NiNJA · · Score: 2

    You have to be a UK citizen to sign the petition so please sign if you can.

  3. Sell the Addresses? Don't Give Them Ideas by grcumb · · Score: 5, Insightful

    An e-petition was created asking the DWP to sell off the block to ease the IPv4 address scarcity in the RIPE region.

    Why not just ask them to do the right thing and give them back to RIPE? I mean seriously, what kind of example are we trying to set here? Or maybe someone's just trying to bootstrap a market for IPv4 addresses in order to cash in on the increasing scarcity....

    ... In any case, encouraging profit from a public resource like this is a terrible idea.

    --
    Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
    1. Re:Sell the Addresses? Don't Give Them Ideas by jibjibjib · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Giving away a block of IPv4 addresses worth about $1 billion is the same as literally giving away $1 billion of taxpayers' money. I don't think that would be doing "the right thing" for the people of the UK.

    2. Re:Sell the Addresses? Don't Give Them Ideas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That makes no sense. The block didn't cost the taxpayers that kind of money.

    3. Re:Sell the Addresses? Don't Give Them Ideas by jibjibjib · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The amount it cost in 1994 is irrelevant in the decision about what to do with it now.

      If it can be sold for $1 billion, then giving it away for nothing is equivalent to giving away $1 billion.

    4. Re:Sell the Addresses? Don't Give Them Ideas by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Why not just ask them to do the right thing and give them back to RIPE?

      The right thing to do is switch to IPv6. Who cares if they have a lot, we have a plan where everyone can have a lot.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    5. Re:Sell the Addresses? Don't Give Them Ideas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      RIPE's terms and conditions prohibit selling IP addresses. RIPE actually has the power to take them back if they're unused and they're needed - and they are needed, RIPE just allocated its last block!

      In this instance, I shall be voting for RIPE to do just that.

    6. Re:Sell the Addresses? Don't Give Them Ideas by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 1

      Maybe this could be the answer to the Social Security (public pension) funding problem in the US? Hold government IPv4 address auctions? Support those retiring Baby Boomers with IPv4 addresses!

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    7. Re:Sell the Addresses? Don't Give Them Ideas by houghi · · Score: 1

      maybe someone's just trying to bootstrap a market for IPv4 addresses in order to cash in on the increasing scarcity

      Like all the ISPs who are not interested in going to IPv6 for this reason and who are ultimately the real customers for IP addresses.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    8. Re:Sell the Addresses? Don't Give Them Ideas by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      There's a surplus that won't be exhausted before 2037. By then, nearly all the boomers will be quite dead. The options for dealing with the system after the surplus is gone are many and not terribly troubling. But by all means, if your favorite politician needs to manufacture a crisis, pretending Social Security has some serious problem looming seems to be a favorite one...

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    9. Re:Sell the Addresses? Don't Give Them Ideas by Patch86 · · Score: 2

      Screw that. My government (that is to say- the taxpayer, i.e., me) owns a £1 billion asset they probably didn't know they had. And you want them to give them away to companies, corporations, private citizens and whatnot for free?

    10. Re:Sell the Addresses? Don't Give Them Ideas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, great idea...

      Oh, but what about the legacy IPv4 systems.

      NAT64 and DNS64 are too complicated...

      I know, let's DUAL STACK everything... So for each machine, now we need an IPv4 address and an IPv6 address.

      So tell me again, how this solves the problems with IPv4 availability?

    11. Re:Sell the Addresses? Don't Give Them Ideas by Zocalo · · Score: 2

      Quite. These IP addresses legitimately belong to the UK Government, and therefore by implication to the UK taxpayer. The snag is that they belong to the wrong department of the UK Government to actually do much good and given the usual incompetence of government transferring them to where they might be useful isn't likely to happen in time. If UK.gov can get its thumb out of its ass and come to some kind of arrangement with RIPE to let them it do it (this kind of thing is not currently permitted under RIPE's T&Cs), these IPs could actually make some money for the Exchequer.

      There are going to be plenty of IPv6 hold-outs in the UK who are pretty much fscked now that RIPE is assigning IPs from its last /8 and therefore won't be able to get any more IPv4 addresses to grow their businesses. If the DWP's /8 were to be loaned out to those companies for a suitably stiff "administration fee" that would give those businesses more time to migrate to IPv6 while potentially generating a considerable amount of revenue for the UK government in the process. Better yet, make the fee monthly and increase it as time goes by; that way you'd be motivating the companies concerned to hasten their move to IPv6 so they could return the loan IPv4 block back to UK.gov ready for assignment to the next sucker who held off deploying IPv6 too long.

      --
      UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
    12. Re:Sell the Addresses? Don't Give Them Ideas by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      I may have missed something, when did the UK move to North America?

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    13. Re:Sell the Addresses? Don't Give Them Ideas by unixisc · · Score: 1

      Yeah, RIPE should take them back, and then allocate them only for the purposes of IPv6 customers who need dual-stack.

    14. Re:Sell the Addresses? Don't Give Them Ideas by stephanruby · · Score: 1

      ... In any case, encouraging profit from a public resource like this is a terrible idea.

      Oh sure, give away those IP addresses, then someone else will hoard them and sit on them indefinitely because they might become valuable in the future (and a boss might blame them if they find out they gave them away).

      The next thing you'll tell us is that domain names should be given out for free as well I suppose.

    15. Re:Sell the Addresses? Don't Give Them Ideas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You did. Try reading all the words in the order in which they appear.

    16. Re:Sell the Addresses? Don't Give Them Ideas by shentino · · Score: 1

      That surplus was invested in treasury bonds that were sold.

      All we have left in social security is a vault full of Uncle Sam's IOU's.

    17. Re:Sell the Addresses? Don't Give Them Ideas by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      Quite. These IP addresses legitimately belong to the UK Government, and therefore by implication to the UK taxpayer.

      No, IP addresses don't "belong" to anyone. IP addresses are allocated to an LIR, and there is nothing stopping the RIR asking for them back - there is no ownership transfer, it is in effect a lease. Also, RIPE's policy doesn't allow the sale of IP addresses (well, you don't actually own them and selling things you don't own is usually frowned upon. If you try to sell a block of IPs, the chances are that RIPE will take that as an indication that you no longer have a requirement for them and will return them to the address pool, to be allocated to anyone who applies through normal allocation policies).

      There are going to be plenty of IPv6 hold-outs in the UK who are pretty much fscked now that RIPE is assigning IPs from its last /8 and therefore won't be able to get any more IPv4 addresses to grow their businesses.

      IMHO there should be something of a LIR size test in the allocation policy. As it stands, a big business can get the same number of IPv4 addresses (1024) as a start-up. However, the big business already has stacks and stacks of IP addresses, many of which they could recover by reconfiguring their network, whereas the start-up doesn't - trying to operate a competetive brand new ISP with only 1024 addresses isn't likely to work, whilst the likes of Virgin, BT, etc. can likely continue operating with no new IPv4 allocations for some time to come, simply by reconfiguring their systems to reclaim addresses where they aren't needed.

      that would give those businesses more time to migrate to IPv6

      Businesses don't need any more time to migrate (especially the big ones who could afford such a fee) - they've had 14 years to migrate. What is actually needed now is some way to force the hold-outs to dual stack in order to interoperate with those businesses that can't get ipv4 addresses. Maybe we actually need to start withdrawing IP addresses from large organisations and redistributing them to the small ones in order to level the playing field - that would force the large orgs to roll out IPv6 (they would no longer have enough v4 addresses, so would need to run IPv6 with NAT64 over parts of their network) whilst giving small orgs enough v4 addresses to compete.

      What was actually needed was legislation around 10 years ago to mandate that all ISPs and equipment manufacturers support IPv6 by 2010 (or earlier) rather than expecting those focussed only on short term profits to do the right thing.

    18. Re:Sell the Addresses? Don't Give Them Ideas by icebraining · · Score: 1

      NAT64 is hardly that complicated. For legacy IPv4, you just need a stateless implementation; any decent gateway should provide that with almost no configuration.

    19. Re:Sell the Addresses? Don't Give Them Ideas by Zocalo · · Score: 1

      I think you missed the part of the story about these being legacy IPs. They were assigned to the DWP directly by IANA, before there were any RIRs, LIRs or even CIDR allocations, under an agreement that effectively does mean that the DWP owns, in the very literal sense, the IP space assigned. At best, there is a kind of gentleman's agreement that the DWP would comply with RIPE's policies, but there isn't really any legally binding reason for them to do so as there is no contract in place between DWP and RIPE. Also, for RIPE at least, there has been a size allocation policy on assignments in place for over 10 years, and I'm pretty sure that APNIC has had a similar policy in place for about as long.

      That doesn't change the fact that we are all but out of assignable IPv4 space in the ARIN, RIPE and APNIC regions, and there are plenty of companies that are going to need more IPv4 space to grow before any migration to dual-stack or native IPv6 can happen. True, it's partly their own fault for not starting to look at IPv6 sooner, but you also have to lay some of the blame at the still quite lamentable IPv6 support from the middle to lower tiers of the hardware market upon which many of the IPv6 holdouts rely to be able to operate on the margins they have. Reclaiming unrouted IP space, even huge swathes of it like the DWP's /8, for conventional re-assignment isn't worth doing, "rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic" is right; it would only buy you a few months at best.

      In case you haven't noticed, we're also in the middle of a global recession; forcing such small, low-margin companies to dual-stack, necessitating expense and reassignment of staff resources likely to be needed elsewhere, is likely to drive many of them into bankruptcy, deepening and prolonging the recession. What is needed are some incentives in the form of a carrot (time to dual-stack, available IPv4 space if absolutely required) and a stick (having to pay for the loan of IPs), and maybe a bit of helping hand from government in the form of cheap loans to pay for it from all of those banks that the taxpayer's now own.

      --
      UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
    20. Re:Sell the Addresses? Don't Give Them Ideas by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      That was always the plan. First, you deploy ipv6 alongisde ipv4. Then you transition software over, and gradually phase ipv4 out entirely. Eventually you can turn off ipv4, and run a purely v6 network. It'd need a few dirty bodges involving tunneling and encapsulation for unsupported, non-updateable legacy apps for decades, but these would pose no more of a problem than the few remaining applications depending on NetBIOS or IPX posed.

    21. Re:Sell the Addresses? Don't Give Them Ideas by cmdrbuzz · · Score: 1

      You do realize that DWP were assigned the addresses by IANA before RIPE even existed!

      RIPE have no ability to take these IP addresses back as they have no contractual agreement with DWP.

    22. Re:Sell the Addresses? Don't Give Them Ideas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except RIPE never allocated this /8. RIPE never allocated /8s to anyone.

      This allocation was done before RIPE even existed. The same for MIT, Apple, HP and a bunch of other such companies that got in on this action early and all have /8s.

      Sure, these things can be found in RIPE's database now (just like MIT, Apple and HP can be found in ARIN's database), but here are the magic words that tell you this:
      status: EARLY-REGISTRATION

    23. Re:Sell the Addresses? Don't Give Them Ideas by lothos · · Score: 1

      posting to undo a mistaken 'redundant' moderation, sorry!

  4. Let's reserve our favorite numbers now! by RulerOf · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Am I the only one that sees something like this and immediately wants to call dibs on a "Vanity IP?"
    I'll take:
    • 51.51.51.51
    • 51.52.53.54
    • 51.0.0.1
    • ...and 51.50.49.48

    I'm sure there's an algorithm or list that could tell me all of the possible "desirable" IPs in the /8, but, due to the fact that we shouldn't be greedy, and the completely arbitrary relation to the number 4 for IPv4, and the fact that it's an election year here in the US, I propose that we Slashdotters limit ourselves to four a piece, and leave the remainder to Reddit and 4chan. Or something.

    --
    Boot Windows, Linux, and ESX over the network for free.
    1. Re:Let's reserve our favorite numbers now! by Formalin · · Score: 4, Funny

      You can have 51.51.51.51, but I've got dibs on 0x33333333.

    2. Re:Let's reserve our favorite numbers now! by RulerOf · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Oooo.....

      http://0x33333333 [Enter]

      You sneaky bastard :D

      --
      Boot Windows, Linux, and ESX over the network for free.
  5. Really? by phizi0n · · Score: 2

    How did nobody notice this until now? There isn't that many public /8 blocks (125 or less since the 10 and 127 blocks are for special purposes and 0 is unusable) and they've been trying to recoup unused /8 blocks for over a decade so is this really a new discovery?

    1. Re:Really? by camperdave · · Score: 5, Funny

      They're holding on to them until the rest of the world coughs up the missing Dr Who episodes.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    2. Re:Really? by Zocalo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Plenty of people have noticed this before now, IANA has published a table showing all the /8 allocations pretty much since they were formed. Anything flagged as "LEGACY" was assigned before the current RIR/LIR assignment process was implemented. Someone even complied a table showing which parts of the legacy IP assignments were not routed some years back, which must have included the DWP's /8 as well unless they were actually advertising it at the time that the table was compiled.

      The only thing that makes this slightly newsworthy is this about a cash strapped sovereign government sitting on a sizable pool of "spare" IPv4 space that has suddenly become a much more valuable commodity following the recent announcement that RIPE is now down to its final /8 and IPv4 allocations within Europe and those parts of Asia that fall under RIPE's remit are now heavily restricted. You can probably expect a similar story about the dozens (see the table above) of underused /8s that are held by US corporations and government agencies, the DoD especially, when ARIN's IPv4 approaches exhaustion as well.

      --
      UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
    3. Re:Really? by Cramer · · Score: 1

      Indeed. And it's been covered numerous times before. First off, reclaiming a single /8 will not make any measurable dent. There was a NANOG post a few months back from John Curran that pretty much was the last word. While there is *a lot* of address space that could be reclaimed, a) it would only prolong the inevitable, and b) it would take lenghtly, expensive legal fights to get it all back. ARIN's official stance is to accept any legacy blocks anyone wants to hand over, but they aren't even bothering to ask that any be returned.

      (Honestly, you'd be an idiot to hand over something worth so much that's costing you absolutely zero.)

    4. Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yup believe DoD has ~5% of Class A addresses and presumably not that many public ones...

  6. relatively common by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This sort of thing is relatively common, it's probably used internally as a routable address space, but not intended for use on the public Internet. (Saves have to deal with multiple uses of rfc1918). This sort of thing is very common in the government (though usually much less than an /8). They can't use a consistent rfc1918 address space internally as whenever the government changes it's priorities, work units will shuffle between departments. You'll probably find that this address space is now used by many departments, and trying to move all users over to another range will cost more than they can recover from selling the /8

    1. Re:relatively common by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that's for what 10/8 was intended.

    2. Re:relatively common by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      Did you actually read the parent?

    3. Re:relatively common by lewiscr · · Score: 1

      If they can allocate consistently in a 51/8 network, they can allocate consistently in a 10/8 network.

    4. Re:relatively common by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      If they can allocate consistently in a 51/8 network, they can allocate consistently in a 10/8 network.

      Ok, you've got two separate organisations (lets call them A and B). They both use the same RFC1918 network (lets say, 10/8). Now, as part of a collaborative project, organisation A needs to access some resources on organisation B's network, so they set up a VPN. Except they are both sharing addresses, so they can't just route traffic between the existing networks.

      The solution here is to allocate non-conflicting addresses to all the resources that need to be shared between sites - So we allocate 192.168.0/24 to A and 192.168.1/24 to B. The important point here is you're not renumbering entire networks, you're just adding an extra address to everything that needs to be shared - renumbering the entire network is a *lot* of work, adding an extra address to a few machines, and approrpiate routing on the routers is easy.

      Now, organisation A needs to collaberate with a third organisation, C. But oh shit, organisation C uses 192.168/16 internally. We now end up in a complete mess that can really only be solved by doing a load of renumbering.

      The more sensible alternative i that organisation A has their own globally unique IP address space. Lets call it 51/8. So A now allocates 51.0.0/24 to its shared resources, B allocates 51.0.1/24 to its shared resources, and when C comes along they get 51.0.2/24. No one needs to do any renumbering, and you can continue to add partner organisations without needing to worry about coordinating address allocations for their internal networks.

      This is also why IPv6 unique local addresses were depricated many years ago, because it was widely recognised as better for each organisation to have globally unique addresses, even if they aren't using them to talk to the internet, because it guards against unforseen future address conflicts caused by mergers, collaberative projects, etc.

  7. Re:Propaganda by The+Master+Control+P · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I enjoy the idea of the Internet actually functioning as an end-to-end network the way it was meant to, rather than one with a handful of privileged devices with publically routable addresses and (soon enough) whole cut-off sub-Internets trapped behind them. But that's just me.

  8. Re:Propaganda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Man, some people really suck at being network administrators. Why don't you pick up a book or something?

  9. This is exactly what markets are good at by Fred+Ferrigno · · Score: 1

    Markets aren't perfect, but efficiently allocating scarce resources is one thing they do well. When you have a quasi-governmental body decide who should get IPs, you end up with situations like this, where people need them can't get them and people who have them don't need them.

    1. Re:This is exactly what markets are good at by icebraining · · Score: 1

      I do agree that a market would be the best way to allocate this, but claiming that hoarding doesn't happen in a market system is ridiculous. Even if the UK could sell them at a profit, why would they when the IPs are only getting more valuable in the medium term?

    2. Re:This is exactly what markets are good at by shentino · · Score: 1

      And the people who have them and don't need them won't give them up without a fight because now they're a scarce resource they would rather milk dry for all it's worth than be polite and surrender them.

    3. Re:This is exactly what markets are good at by doshell · · Score: 1

      Except that in this case you are creating a market to deal with artificial scarcity, which is just plain evil. Remember, there is no physical reason for there being only 2^32 addresses. Only the completely accidental fact that someone picked the number 32 some decades ago.

      --
      Score: i, Imaginary
    4. Re:This is exactly what markets are good at by Fred+Ferrigno · · Score: 1

      Even if the UK could sell them at a profit, why would they when the IPs are only getting more valuable in the medium term?

      Because somebody offers them enough money in the present to compensate them for what they'd make in the future. See time value of money.

  10. Answer is obvious.... by wbr1 · · Score: 1

    The dept of work and pensions is holding them, so that every pensioner can have a static IP. The betyer for the UK gov, to track you with. Taking tinfoil hat off now.

    --
    Silence is a state of mime.
    1. Re:Answer is obvious.... by ctrl-alt-canc · · Score: 1

      Pensioners have a static IP, working people instead have a dynamic IP...

  11. FBI has by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    FBI has over 128 million but they are being used to catch you

  12. AMPRNet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Amateur radio operators own a /8 too (44) that has been used slightly at the beginning of the nineties, but is now completely useless.

    1. Re:AMPRNet by ctrl-alt-canc · · Score: 1

      It was useless also in the nineties...plenty of hype about connecting the world with AX25 packet radio, but no real end-user applications to justify this.

  13. Re:Just escape-code the IPv4 space already. by jibjibjib · · Score: 1

    It's a bit late to say "ignore IPv6 completely". IPv4 has already run out, and IPv6 is already deployed in production.

    But if you stop swearing at IPv6 and start making coherent evidence-supported arguments against it, maybe people will start listening to you in time for IPv8.

  14. And once again by Anarchduke · · Score: 1, Funny

    Wealth can be measured in pieces of eight.

    --
    who prays for Satan? Who in 18 centuries has had the humanity to pray for the 1 sinner that needed it most? ~Mark Twain
  15. Re:Propaganda by jibjibjib · · Score: 1

    If we solved IPv4 exhaustion using NAT, we would divide the Internet into people with public IP addresses and people without public IP addresses. Those without public IPs can't run servers on the standard ports, possibly can't run servers at all, and are limited in their ability to use peer-to-peer protocols.

    It's not true that "all current needs are solved by NAT".

  16. Re:Propaganda by fm6 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "The way it was meant to" was specified by a bunch DARPA funded geeks who design their tech for a small network where all the admins knew each other. They had no concept of operating a network with large numbers of users, many of them malicious

    Whenever I hear "the way it was meant to" I run the other direction. It's always based on some lame notion that things were perfect in the past, even though people in the past were also whining about "the it was meant to."

  17. Who says they're unused? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    It may come as a shock to many here, but it's perfectly acceptable to use public IP addresses that you own on a private network, if you choose to do so. So, lack of presence in AS announcements does not imply "unused". This block may well be, but it may equally well be in use, just not on the public internet.

    1. Re:Who says they're unused? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      THIS! IBM (like most other early computer science companies) has a bunch of so called "unused" blocks too. But in reality they use it well for their internal network, and it would be one heck of task for them to get them out of use and auction them (many IPs are statically allocated, they would lose a lot time if they ever decide to migrate).

    2. Re:Who says they're unused? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what? The inward-facing NAT address is irrelevant, isn't it?

    3. Re:Who says they're unused? by unixisc · · Score: 2

      This is very true. IBM has 9.x.x.x. So the way they may have originally configured it may have been have 9.x.x.x to their central router, and then subnet it from that point throughout the company worldwide. So that every separate LAN within IBM would have a certain number of users. Now, if they were asked to return what they were not using, they'd have to totally re-configure their subnet centrally, and it would be a nightmare to pull off. And for what - so that other people can use them?

      Agreed that IP addresses were badly allocated by Jon Postel to a select few companies, and he probably never imagined the world's entire population potentially needing it. So that's water under the bridge, and nobody should try to solve it that way. The way it's being done now- IETF owning the root, then allocating the unicast bunch to the IANA, which then allocates them to the RIRs, who then allocate them further downstream, is a good way to work. That's what people should do. The only reason for wanting to get IPv4 addresses would be to support dual stack, but for anything that is not a web server, use IPv6. That way, people don't have to scour for these addresses, and the nightmare it would be to configure them.

    4. Re:Who says they're unused? by Megane · · Score: 2

      Usually. The problem happens when companies merge, and both are using the same "private" address space.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    5. Re:Who says they're unused? by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      No

      NAT is a hack, the client machines and the routers between the client and the NAT have no idea whether the address they are trying to connect to is internal or public.

      So if company X uses 9.x.x.x for their internal network with NATs and companies Y and Z use 9.x.x.x for their public servers then users at company X will not be able to access internet services run by company Y because their packets will not reach the NAT at the edge of company X's network.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    6. Re:Who says they're unused? by shentino · · Score: 1

      "that you own" was the biggest mistake ever made.

    7. Re:Who says they're unused? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmhmm... the reference, though, was to 5/8, not the IPv4 allocation model.

      On a similarly tangential note, why have these people lacked the foresight to change class E into regular RESERVED blocks? Should've given some breathing room. But no, they thought, we'll just go with IPv6 instead. It's soooo much better. So much so, in fact, that ten years on and in obvious need now, takeup is still lacking. Pfft.

    8. Re:Who says they're unused? by Cramer · · Score: 1

      This has been debated as well. It would require reprogramming *every* internet connected device. Do I need to point out how many devices are in common use that no longer have any code support? These are devices that won't get IPv6 support either. So, given the choice of "upgrading the entire internet" for the short term gain of the class E space (best case, adds a few months) or deploying IPv6 -- which is, for better or worse, the solution -- we're f'ing deploying IPv6. No more g** d*** bandaids.

    9. Re:Who says they're unused? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Minor point: We've been f'ing deploying IPv6 for... how long now? With just how much uptake? How big a percentage of devices sold today don't support IPv6 at all?

      What they should've done is to mark class E as RESERVED (as in, possibly usable) ten years back, just in case and because it became clear there wouldn't be any fancy new models to dedicate it to, as was done with multicast. Then issue a notice that every new device must treat that space as normal. Wait ten years, profit. Instead they muddled along with IPv6 that nobody wanted then and in the face of dearth and need still nobody wants. Which is pretty impressive. Them techs read the signs on the wall saying IPv4 would fixing and fixed it long before it really needed fixing, then completely failed to read the signs on the wall that the fix wasn't catching on. And again, it still doesn't. Care to explain that one?

      Besides, I don't agree that IPv6 isn't a bandaid itself. Just look at, say, how DNS for it is done. By breaking the protocol. They *should have* added a new inet6 domain and used appropriate A and PTR records for it. Instead they had a jolly old holy war about A6 and AAAA in the inet domain. Many more things, large and small, that you can point to. Thus, IPv6 is a disaster of a failure, both in the technical and in the uptake senses.

      From which follows that we'll be muddling around with IPv4 for a while yet, despite obvious need to leave it behind. For the saviour isn't. Boo, hiss.

    10. Re:Who says they're unused? by Cramer · · Score: 2

      Class E *is* reserved space. That's why many devices refuse to allow those addresses.

      Yes, a decade (plus) ago we could have wasted efforts to un-reserve that space -- and forcably reclaim all those legacy /8's. We'd still end up in exactly the same damned place... IPv4 address space isn't large enough for the global internet. The effort was instead devoted to creation of IP-ng (aka IPv6.) For all of the "designed by committee" mistakes, IPv6 is our solution. It's too god damn late to say it's trash and try to invent a new system.

      The biggest failure of IP-ng is the complete lack of migration, transition, and interoperability. IPv4 and IPv6 are COMPLETELY different protocols. They might as well be Appletalk and IPX. They create to completely independant network. There is zero chance of ever getting the entire world to agree to drop v4 and go v6 at any set point. The largest sticking point here are US ISPs... they have v4 address space and their customers only want to get to v4 connected sites, thus there's zero pressure to deploy v6. (read: no consumer demand -- also zero consumer understanding) Even within the enterprise sector, there's little demand for IPv6; so again, the ISP has no pressure to support it. In fact, their plan for "the we day run out of IPv4" is carrier grade NAT, not IPv6. The IPv6 deployments of most US ISPs is a horrible joke -- AT&T's answer is 6rd - period, Legacy Bellsouth DSL... switch to Uverse: see previous answer, TWC? who knows as next to none of their customers have IPv6 connectivity, Comcast appears to be the only one headed in the right direction but at glacial speed.

      IPv6 isn't an IPv4 bandaid, per se. It's a cement truck trying to pave over it. The quad-A record format was to allow v4 and v6 DNS to interoperate. One can resolve IPv6 addresses via a 100% IPv4 DNS system. It also means IPv4 only hosts can see IPv6 records ('tho they cannot talk to them.) Your suggestion would further isolate IPv6 within it's own DNS realm.

      TL;DR IPv6 deployment is a matter of business need. As long as you have a v4 address and need to talk to other v4 hosts, there's no need for v6. This is the boat american companies are riding.

  18. 16.777 != 16.9 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    16777216 to be precise. Anecdotal inflation?

    1. Re:16.777 != 16.9 by Psicopatico · · Score: 5, Funny

      Someone used the Imperial IP which is slightly bigger than the Metric IP, hence the result is 16.9.

      --
      Mastering the English language is fucking easy: all you have to do is to put an f* word in every fucking sentence.
    2. Re:16.777 != 16.9 by mrbester · · Score: 4, Funny

      Ah, the widescreen version.

      --
      "Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
    3. Re:16.777 != 16.9 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This reminds me of those Star Trek episodes where Spock always added more figures after the decimal point and I would think YOUR CHOICE OF ROUNDING WAS JUST AS ARBITRARY AS KIRK'S.

    4. Re:16.777 != 16.9 by munkay · · Score: 1

      no, just broadband.

    5. Re:16.777 != 16.9 by KevReedUK · · Score: 1

      There is a difference between genuine rounding and poor mathematics.

      Simply giving more significant figures is a rounding difference, whereas rounding 16.777 to 16.9 is plain WRONG.

      To round to one decimal place would be 16.8!!!

      --
      Just my $0.03 (At current exchange rates, my £0.02 is worth more than your $0.02)
  19. Re:Just escape-code the IPv4 space already. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's even easier. Steal the top 4 bits from the port address space, and repurpose them for global addressing with some hardcore CIDR and router magic.

    An office with lots of NAT users would pay extra for a /32 address with 65,536 ports.

    A typical home user would get a /34 address with 16,384 ports

    An economy home user might get a /35 address with 8,192 ports.

    Individual cell phones would get /36 addresses with 4,096 ports.

    IP addresses that currently range from x.y.z.1 through x.y.z.254 would range from x.y.z.1 through x.y.z.4094. There'd be enough /36 addresses for everyone on earth to have two, and enough /32 and /34 addresses to give every household and office with a cable/DSL modem (or future equivalent) 2-4 public IP addresses, even with 12 billion people on earth (not everybody lives alone).

  20. No point anyway by stooo · · Score: 1

    This will give IPv4 globally perhaps two days. No point in that !
    ISPs will run so fast to reserve that space it will be consumed (not used) in seconds.
    And also, even if a govt agency decides to release addr space they partially use, it could take years for that decision....

    --
    aaaaaaa
    1. Re:No point anyway by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      Obviously the previous situation where public v4 IPs were virtually free and easy to get had to end.

      Over the next few years people will have to evaluate what applications can use v6, what applications can use private v4 and what applications really need and can justify the cost of public v4.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
  21. Selling numbers by stooo · · Score: 0

    Yeah, selling reserved numbers, what a great ides.
    I'll patent PI ;)

    --
    aaaaaaa
  22. Used internally..? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    As somebody in the blog comments already noted.. many organizations use public IP space internally without advertising this space to the internet. They generally NAT outgoing traffic over a smaller block that may even fall outside their large (/8 in this case) block.

    So somebody sees this organisation doesn't advertise their /8 and decides they should renumber possibly thousands of internal systems? Good luck with that :)

    1. Re:Used internally..? by Chrisq · · Score: 1

      As somebody in the blog comments already noted.. many organizations use public IP space internally without advertising this space to the internet. They generally NAT outgoing traffic over a smaller block that may even fall outside their large (/8 in this case) block.

      So somebody sees this organisation doesn't advertise their /8 and decides they should renumber possibly thousands of internal systems? Good luck with that :)

      True, but they needn't do that now. All they need to do is interconnect their sites with VPNs and they can sell the addresses for public use but keep them for private

  23. NAT is dead by stooo · · Score: 1

    NAT and other ip sharing schemes is dead.
    Now everybody (within ipv6) will be able to communicate directly
    Deal with it.

    --
    aaaaaaa
    1. Re:NAT is dead by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      Too bad. Now every time I want to switch to a backup ISP (when the main connection goes down) I'll have to reconfigure all computers in the internal network (maybe some script will be able to do it automatically). After all, the other ISP will give different IPs and instead of the router just using whatever external IP it has and the PCs not caring, now the connection will be disrupted for some time until all PCs realize that the main connection is dead.

      If I ever wanted to load balance between two ISPs and use standard software that would be impossible.

      If I ever wanted to make ftp://example.com and http://example/ com be different actual servers, that would be impossible too. Maybe I could use very similar names - http://i.example.com/ and ftp://l.example.com but that is not the same.

      If I wanted to make a server believe that two clients are actually the same one - that would be impossible too. Well, I could use a proxy server, but that requires that the client software supports using proxies.

      No more transparent proxies - remember the special URL to log in to the ISP (now you just get redirected there) and no more upside-down-ternet.

      NAT has more uses other than the "share one external IP to multiple computers".

    2. Re:NAT is dead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It is possible to request a direct assignment of provider independent IPv6 prefixes from for example RIPE (fees are around EUR 1300 per year). This is especially tailored for the use-cases you described. Also check: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provider-independent_address_space

      I would assume you can set up a proxy that routs port 80 traffic to one machine and port 21 to another. If you get a good enough router, it may even allow you to do this for you in a sort of IPv6 level NAT (there are software packages for this). I don't see the point though. Just assign ftp.example.com and www.example.com, not that difficult to remember; or put in SRV records in your DNS and use clients that supports them.

    3. Re:NAT is dead by Pentium100 · · Score: 2

      Load balancing/failover between different ISPs:
      IPv6 - ISP cooperation and 1300EUR/year,
      IPv4 - NAT router with software that supports this (for example pfsense) - can be completely free and does not need ISP cooperation or knowledge.

      I actually did the load balancing between two connections from the same ISP. I had DSL and could access a WiFi AP (legally), but WiFi was not very reliable. Pfsense could load balance both connections and give me faster torrents (if WiFi worked) or was just the same as with only DSL (when WiFi did not work). No additional configuration required, uT worked perfectly.

      IPv6 level NAT (there are software packages for this)

      any of them work on x86 Linux or Windows?

      Two real servers appearing as one - it may be that the client software expects one server (and for some reason I have to have them separately, be it physical or virtual machines) or to confuse hackers. Or to keep old links working after one of the services was moved to a different server.

      Essentially, NAT allows me to "decouple" the internal network from the external one - I can make it appear as I want to from the outside instead of what it actually is. Nobody outside has a need to know how my network is set up - just like the power company does not need to know what devices I have plugged in - all it sees is the total current.

    4. Re:NAT is dead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      May I suggest you try and educate yourself on Linux' ipfilter and ip framework using the Linux Advanced Routing and Traffic Control-HOWTO? http://www.lartc.org/

      And the security argument is bogus. Security through obscurity does not work. Ever. You don't need NAT. You need a packet filtering firewall.

    5. Re:NAT is dead by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      It is possible to request a direct assignment of provider independent IPv6 prefixes from for example RIPE (fees are around EUR 1300 per year). This is especially tailored for the use-cases you described. Also check: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provider-independent_address_space

      Sure so E1300 per year plus almost certainly having to move up from buisness DSL/Cable to far higher priced dedicated lines. I imagine most small buisnesses reaction to that would be "FUCK IPv6"

      Also IIRC one of the teir 1 ISPs refused to route provider independent IPv6 allocations? did that ever get resolved?

      Fortunately it seems those miltantly against v6 nat got pushed out of the netfilter team and It looks like v6 nat support got accepted into linux.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    6. Re:NAT is dead by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      Too bad. Now every time I want to switch to a backup ISP (when the main connection goes down) I'll have to reconfigure all computers in the internal network (maybe some script will be able to do it automatically).

      This is what router advertisements are for. You switch ISP, your router starts advertising the new prefix, everything carries on working. (If you're really smart you'll use IPv6 mobility extensions, although that would require some support from your ISP since your connection has died).

      If I ever wanted to load balance between two ISPs and use standard software that would be impossible.

      Now this one is something that I haven't seen a good solution to (without having a PI prefix and support from the ISPs). But then again, I haven't looked very hard.

      If I ever wanted to make ftp://example.com and http://example/ com be different actual servers, that would be impossible too.

      That's what SRV records are for (although admittedly I doubt any FTP clients and web browsers support them, but they work well for a lot of other protocols).

      If I wanted to make a server believe that two clients are actually the same one - that would be impossible too.

      Uh.. why would you want to?

      No more transparent proxies - remember the special URL to log in to the ISP (now you just get redirected there)

      Transparent proxies work just fine.

      NAT has more uses other than the "share one external IP to multiple computers".

      Very few. Most of which can be better implemented without NAT (e.g. using IPv6's mobility extensions, etc.) On the other hand, the fact that practically everything goes through a NAT causes all sorts of brokenness that I would be more than happy to not have to deal with. I'm willing to live without the relatively minor benefits of NAT if I get to avoid having to put up with the brokenness it induces.

    7. Re:NAT is dead by unixisc · · Score: 1

      There actually is an IPv6 NAT standard?

    8. Re:NAT is dead by unixisc · · Score: 1

      If I ever wanted to make ftp://example.com and http://example/ com be different actual servers, that would be impossible too. Maybe I could use very similar names - http://i.example.com/ and ftp://l.example.com but that is not the same.

      This one I didn't understand. If you wanted to do this, why not have something like

      ftp://example.com 2001:f00:ba7:2::5:21
      http://example.com/ 2001:f00:ba7:2::5:8080

      In the above case, you can use ftp port# 21 to indicate that it's FTP, and 8080 to indicate http. Since the port# are from 0 to 65535, you could even convert that into HEX, if there were a wide range of protocols you were using.

      So I didn't exactly get your issue w/ this one.

    9. Re:NAT is dead by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      I don't think there is a standard for IPv6 NAT just like there weren't ever really formal standard for IPv4 NAT (there were some RFCs written with descriptions and reccomendations but they came AFTER nats started to be widely used)

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    10. Re:NAT is dead by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      Uh.. why would you want to?

      To keep the same session when switching computers or log in from two computers at the same time.

      Transparent proxies work just fine.

      How? Transparent proxies require that the router redirects the relevant packets to them instead of the real server (DNAT target on iptables) and would not work without NAT, unless the DNS requests also got intercepted, but you can't know beforehand whether the user will try to connect using HTTP (which should get redirected to the proxy) or , say, HTTPS (which should go straight).

    11. Re:NAT is dead by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      Imagine there is apiece of software that does a DNS request then opens two connections to the server - http and ftp. In the past both services ran on the same server, but now due to lack of resources one service was moved to a different server and sits on a different IP. The software does not know that and still expects to be able to connect to the same server for both services, so it gets the DNS response and uses the same IP to try to connect.
      One way to do it would be to use a proxy server on that IP that then redirected the connections to the actual servers. The downsides of this method are useless log files on the real servers (since they would show only the proxy IP) and a need for a third server (especially if the reason the services were split up was because the single server could not handle the bandwidth).

    12. Re:NAT is dead by Cramer · · Score: 1

      RAs and SLB (server load balancing [read: proxy]) NEXT

      While having PI address space makes things cleaner, it's not something consumers can do. When the router sends a new RA with a different prefix, all the hosts should update their address instantly. (I've never actually tested that.)

    13. Re:NAT is dead by Cramer · · Score: 1

      Simple... the dns lookup is for "example.com" -- that being the hostname. "ftp://" and "http://" are application specific protocols. There are dns SRV records, but as others have said, no ftp/http applications use them (currently.)

    14. Re:NAT is dead by bbn · · Score: 1

      Load balancing/failover between different ISPs:
      IPv6 - ISP cooperation and 1300EUR/year,
      IPv4 - NAT router with software that supports this (for example pfsense) - can be completely free and does not need ISP cooperation or knowledge.

      You got that one wrong. It is like this:

      IPv6 - It just works, no extra software needed, no configuration or NAT router needed. No support or cooperation from either ISP needed.

      With IPv6 you just order internet from multiple ISPs. You get a router from each. You connect said routers to your network. And you are done. If one router goes down or if the link or ISP goes down, all traffic will automatically move on to the other available options within a failover period of 30 seconds.

      It is true that there will be no load balancing as such, only failover and not much in the way of configuring anything. In the larger picture, this will however make dual ISP an option for a lot of people that would never have figured out how to setup pfsense. My mom could do it.

    15. Re:NAT is dead by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      Transparent proxies work just fine.

      How?

      Tproxy. We use it all the time on our customers' networks.

      Transparent proxies require that the router redirects the relevant packets to them instead of the real server

      Correct.

      (DNAT target on iptables) and would not work without NAT, unless the DNS requests also got intercepted

      Incorrect. No NAT required. The TPROXY netfilter target will intercept matched traffic and send it to a local process instead - no NAT happens here, the packet just gets _routed_ to a local process with the original IP and TCP headers unmodified.

      If your proxy is not on the gateway router machine itself, then you have 2 options:
      1. Add routing rules to the border router to route the appropriate traffic to the proxy (where it will be intercepted by the TPROXY target). If there are other routers between the proxy and the border router then these need the same rules, which can be a little messy so we only usually use this option if the border router and proxy server are on the same subnet.
      2. Do (1), but over a GRE tunnel between the border router and the proxy so that any routers between the two don't need to care about special routing rules.

      On the whole, because no connection tracking is involved, you don't need to care about avoiding asymmetric routing so this works out easier to manage than using DNAT to redirect the traffic (for this reason I'd advise against using DNAT to implement transparent proxying even in IPv4-only situations).

  24. The nuttiness of allocation by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 1

    My boss had an entire class C for about 10 years+ with on average maybe 7-8 employees over that time and a web footprint no bigger than a basic corporate contacts website. He probably could have held on to it, too if he didn't see the expense as a waste of money when he was looking to streamline.

    --
    I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
    1. Re:The nuttiness of allocation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This. First, random allocation of millions upon millions of IPs. Then the whining and bitching we're going to run out of them. And then this.

      Screw the system! (captcha was fittingly: atheism)

    2. Re:The nuttiness of allocation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

      You're victim to Xeno's paradox: You focus on the little steps, and that clouds your perception of the big picture. There aren't enough IPv4 addresses, no matter how many are reclaimed or how efficiently they're allocated. The whole of IPv4 has a maximum of 4 billion addresses. There are already more people on this planet. Many use more than one IP enabled device at the same time. No matter how you allocate the addresses, in the end there won't be enough of them.

  25. Re:Propaganda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I enjoy the idea of the Internet actually functioning as an end-to-end network the way it was meant to, rather than one with a handful of privileged devices with publically routable addresses and (soon enough) whole cut-off sub-Internets trapped behind them. But that's just me.

    The internet was NEVER supposed to be an end-to-end network of devices. It's an end-to-end network of NETWORKS.
    And the term is "intranet" or "local area network" not "sub-internet".

  26. Great by Yoda222 · · Score: 1

    17 millions ? Great, just give one to every UK citizen next time a cool new connected gadget goes live. It should work thanks to the economics crisis, if only one out of three citizen buy the gadget !

  27. Me too!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have plenty of 127.x.x.x addresses to sell, anybody's interested?

  28. Re:Lots of IPs but not so many dentists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fuck that! I want to see the queens! huba-huba!

  29. I believe... by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 5, Funny

    I believe in the incremental approach to updates; it's so much safer and usually easier.
    So it's going to be IPv5 for me, while you suckers make a mess of IPv6!

    --
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
    1. Re:I believe... by unixisc · · Score: 1, Funny

      So you're gonna use Internet Stream Protocol to achieve your connectivity? A protocol that's always been experimental and never implemented for public use? A protocol whose concepts are similar to ATM and MLPS?

      Do tell us how it's done!

    2. Re:I believe... by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 5, Funny

      I also believe a WHOOSH! is in order for you, sir/madam.

      --
      Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
    3. Re:I believe... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      I think you should keep your "WHOOOSH".

    4. Re:I believe... by Megane · · Score: 2

      Hah! I'm not going to waste my time with IPv6, what with IPv7 right around the corner!

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    5. Re:I believe... by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      I think you mean MPLS. There's a difference ;)

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    6. Re:I believe... by MightyYar · · Score: 2

      The worst is that if you upgrade right now, you just know they'll drop the price right after you get IPv6.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    7. Re:I believe... by OMA1981 · · Score: 1

      If IP versions are anything like Windows versions, you might want to reconsider ignoring v5 and just stick with v6.

      And at the risk of wrecking my already admittedly bad joke before it has a chance to be even a little, I am completely aware IPv5 is not an iteration of the IP protocol in a sense like IPv4 and IPv6. Though is it possible the creators of IP knew about the "skip-a-version" methodology and purposefully skipped "v5" to trick us into upgrading to IPv6?

      --
      The less you talk, the more people hear you say.
  30. GSi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1
  31. They are in use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    That's a network used for intra government department communications. They won't be giving it back.

  32. Some of that 51.0.0.0/8 actually is in use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Local government network admin here. Parts of the 51.0.0.0/8 address space is in our internal routing table, because it's used for shared private networks between different government organisations. Just because it's not in the public Internet routing table doesn't mean it's not used.

    Granted perhaps not the whole /8 is in use (I only see 3 x /16s out of a possible 256 in my routing table at present), but who's to say other sectors which I don't have network connectivity to aren't using it.

    We're actually pushing for and slowly enabling IPv6 internally on our core and servers where we can, rather than delay the inevitable. This is despite our organisation ourselves owning a whole public /16 block, yet have maybe only 10-15k addressable nodes max across all our networks we control at present. It will take us much much longer to re-IP/re-subnet the entire network more efficiently so some of that space can be returned to RIPE, than for it to be reallocated and used up after returning, due to old systems and old proprietary software in use. Not to mention the resources required to do such a massive task.

    Personally I think the people asking for addresses to be returned by any organisation (supposedly) not using them (including all the other apparently wasted /8 allocations out there) are not looking long term enough. IPv6 is the way to go.

    1. Re:Some of that 51.0.0.0/8 actually is in use by lbft · · Score: 2

      If you need a /8 for private addresses, use 10.0.0.0/8. That's what it's bloody there for.

      > Personally I think the people asking for addresses to be returned by any organisation (supposedly) not using them (including all the other apparently wasted /8 allocations out there) are not looking long term enough. IPv6 is the way to go.

      Consumer internet IPv6 adoption rates are atrocious across the globe. VPSes and dedicated servers require dedicated IPs, and even shared hosting requires a dedicated IP for SSL if you want anybody running any version of Internet Explorer on Windows XP to not get a certificate warning.

      Are people who do business online supposed to claim pensions until enough people can reach their IPv6-only websites?

    2. Re:Some of that 51.0.0.0/8 actually is in use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wtf is this shit? Everyone will be running dual-stack like in every IPv6 migration plan since forever.

    3. Re:Some of that 51.0.0.0/8 actually is in use by jbolden · · Score: 1

      That's not true. Look at the phone networks. The phones are migrating first and I suspect the majority are already v6. After that consumers will migrate. So by the time you need to move you'll be fine.

    4. Re:Some of that 51.0.0.0/8 actually is in use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you're using 51.0.0.0/8 instead of 10.0.0.0/8 for internal networks? Fuck you right in the arse.

    5. Re:Some of that 51.0.0.0/8 actually is in use by lbft · · Score: 2

      APNIC have been on their last /8 policy for nearly a year and a half. RIPE have now entered their last /8 policy.

      That means no more than 1024 IPs per organisation, ever.

      So once existing allocations are exhausted, right now, in Europe, Asia, or the Pacific, any new ISP will not be able to have more than 1024 customers online at the same time without NAT. Any new datacentre or VPS provider will not be able to have more than 1024 active services, at all (since NAT would not be an acceptable solution for servers).

      "The time you need to move" is now for many people, and it's not going to be long before it's you too.

    6. Re:Some of that 51.0.0.0/8 actually is in use by jbolden · · Score: 1

      There are two different issues here:

      1) Should companies be moving. -- Absolutely.

      2) Can you get a single v4 address for webservices and will there be such a brutal shortage anytime soon that will be impossible. -- No.

      GP was addressing (2). You are addressing (1).

    7. Re:Some of that 51.0.0.0/8 actually is in use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > If you need a /8 for private addresses, use 10.0.0.0/8. That's what it's bloody there for.

      RFC1918 space wasn't always there. No doubt if you looked at the history behind most classic Classful A and B assignments you'll find that they existed before RFC1918 (February, 1996). Case in point: 51/8 was assigned August, 1994.

      Places that obtained IPv4 addresses should not just give them up and switch to 10/8 to band-aid the IPv4 problem that is still going to exist. Public IPv4 space is exhausted for APNIC and RIPE. It's time to move to the solution: IPv6.

      RFC1918 date source: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1918
      51/8 allocate date source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assigned_/8_IPv4_address_blocks

  33. You realize DHCP isn't needed for IPv6, right? by tlambert · · Score: 1

    It's called stateless address autoconfiguration.

    http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2462.txt

  34. Re:Just escape-code the IPv4 space already. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    TCP and UDP aren't the only protocols on top of IP. There are protocols for which the notion of "port number" doesn't exist. Also, to do what you propose, you'd have to change all IP stacks. While you're doing that, you might as well do it right and fix some of the other problems with IPv4 at the same time. That's what IPv6 is.

  35. Make them dual-stack use only by unixisc · · Score: 2

    Since it's been discovered, what they should do is break it up into, say ~65k blocks of 256 addresses each, and sell them only to customers who have IPv6 transition plans. In other words, these addresses should only be used to enable dual-stack for customers who have taken the initiative in moving to IPv6.

    That forces people to move seriously towards IPv6 - starting w/ the telecom vendors, such as BT, Vodafone, et al. That way, the migration, instead of being pushed out, gets expedited.

    Indeed, that should be the approach worldwide - provide IPv4 ONLY to supplement IPv6 blocks so that dual stack can be supported, and not any other reason.

    1. Re:Make them dual-stack use only by jbolden · · Score: 1

      The registries don't have many addresses. They felt, rightly, that any attempt to do things like that a few years back would be rejected and they would be seen as "burdensome regulations" so they just exhausted their supply. This way v4 addresses become expensive and the economic incentives for transitioning exist.

    2. Re:Make them dual-stack use only by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My ISP (Time Warner) doesn't support IPv6. With an HE tunnel I have connectivity, but....

  36. Re:Just escape-code the IPv4 space already. by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

    It's even easier. Steal the top 4 bits from the port address space, and repurpose them for global addressing with some hardcore CIDR and router magic.

    IP doesn't have "ports" - they are a feature of the upper layer (TCP, UDP, SCTP, etc). There are plenty of protocols in use that sit on top of IP that have no concept of ports.

    Also, your proposed "solution" would require replacing all the equipment on the network, so why not just use the existing solution (IPv6, which is already supported by most kit and provides various other good stuff beyond just extra addresses)?

  37. 51st State? by Martin+S. · · Score: 2

    Would privatisation of the DWP's 51.0.0.0/8 block be the first or last step to the 51st State?

  38. Not publicly routed doesn't mean unused by Martin+S. · · Score: 5, Informative

    Just because this block is not public does not mean it is unused.

    The UK Government has a huge darknet.

    1. Re:Not publicly routed doesn't mean unused by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But how many external IPs would that huge intranet actually need?

    2. Re:Not publicly routed doesn't mean unused by datajack · · Score: 1

      Most / all of them. A network like the GSI is intended to link and provide services to a large number of separate and autonomous organisations, not all of whom are government organisations or had plans to join the network when their own internal networks were developed. Therefore the use of RFC1918 addresses is unsuitable.

      The Wikipedia article talks of the GSI and I would assume that the AC above has a connection to the GCSX. Many other such national networks for varying different uses also exist. I believe that many of them are in the 51 block.

    3. Re:Not publicly routed doesn't mean unused by RichMeatyTaste · · Score: 1

      Exactly. My company owns a /16 (bought in 1987) and uses it for internal addressing. They also use it for the internal IP ranges on many of the products they sell (storage arrays) and likely for external IP's as well (just a guess on the last one; I've never checked).

      --


      Ever feel like you are driving the getaway car?
    4. Re:Not publicly routed doesn't mean unused by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just because this block is not public does not mean it is unused.

      The UK Government has a huge darknet.

      From that article:

      Many UK government organisations use the GSi to transfer files on a peer-to-peer (P2P) basis

      The article does not however specify whether they use BitTorrent, eMule, Direct Connect or KaZaA.

  39. Re:Propaganda by osu-neko · · Score: 1

    The problem with "the way it was meant to be" arguments is that they presuppose an intelligent designer. There's little evidence for such in biology, and even less in computer science. :p

    --
    "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
  40. Re:Propaganda by thegarbz · · Score: 1

    They had no concept of operating a network with large numbers of users,

    And yet their solution has scaled remarkably well considering the proliferation of network enabled devices at the time.

    Sometimes "the way it was meant to" was actually designed by some people who really knew what the hell they were talking about.

  41. Managing your addresses by unixisc · · Score: 2

    First things first - for IPv6, DHCP6 is a better idea than DHCP4 was for IPv4. Use that to manage your addresses. You can assign certain addresses (or ranges) as static, certain address ranges as dynamic, and be off to the races. No need to struggle w/ subnetting the way you did in IPv4.

    Next thing - if it's important for you to remember your IPv6 address, remember that the first 12-16 digits (depending on what your ISP gives you) are gonna be common. You then have the remaining 16 digits. If it's important that you remember them, set up a naming scheme for those 16 digits that works for you, and assign those names accordingly. Set it up in your DHCP6 server, so that all your devices automatically get their IPs. From that point, after a while, you should be able to remember the first half - since it's your assigned global prefix - and then the latter half, since it's something you assigned and remember. Do not use auto-configured addresses in this case.

    In the event that you have money to throw @ this problem, there are even PAM (Protocol Address Management) software that some IPv6 companies provide, that help you manage your addresses. You might want to invest in those.

  42. Re:Propaganda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The success of the internet doesn't stand isolated from the failures of other networks that existed before and during the internet becoming mainstream. Much of the attractiveness of the internet results from the "dumb network, intelligent edges" design, because that architecture allows for innovation at the edges without requiring changes to the network beforehand. Other networks could only support the applications that the network operators had already accounted for. End-to-end connectivity on the internet is crucial to maintaining that advantage. With NAT as it is today, users can at least still configure their routers to reestablish inbound connectivity. An automatic way of doing this (UPnP) was developed because this is such an important feature of IP networks. But it makes things more complicated and fragile, because some required functionality is no longer at the very edge of the network. With large scale NAT schemes, the kind of which would be required to keep using IPv4, users don't stand a chance of getting inbound connectivity.

  43. DHCP6 preferable to autoconf by unixisc · · Score: 0

    Au contraire, DHCP6 is more needed in v6 than DHCP4 was in v4. In v4, you had 3 options - manually assign, autoconfigure or DHCP4. In v6, you have 2 - the manually assign is not practical, unless you are managing only 2-3 devices.

    About the memorizing part, I just thought of something. I've seen some people complain that average users don't know HEX, but they don't need to. If they just stick to decimal numbers, they have 10^16 addresses, and if they just stick to A-F, they have 2,821,109,907,456 to assign. Or even more - if 0 = O, 1 = I, 2 = Z, 5 = S, then you again have 10^16 addresses for just the lettered addresses. So these things need not be complicated.

    I wouldn't recommend stateless autoconfiguration, given that in that scenario, it becomes impossible to remember the IP address. Not everybody is comfortable w/ tossing it there and forgetting about it - particularly applications where people need to manually enter it.

    1. Re:DHCP6 preferable to autoconf by KiloByte · · Score: 4, Informative

      What's wrong with manually assigning IPv6 addresses? That works just the same as it did with IPv4:

      iface eth0 inet6 static
              address 2001:6a0:114::9
              netmask 64
              gateway 2001:6a0:114::1
      iface eth0 inet static
              address 192.168.0.9
              netmask 255.255.255.0
              gateway 192.168.0.1

      You just get a much bigger range to choose from, which you may use or not.

      --
      The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
    2. Re:DHCP6 preferable to autoconf by DamonHD · · Score: 1

      Indeed: for my public IPv6 hosting I have done exactly that. Plus ça change...

      Rgds

      Damon

      --
      http://m.earth.org.uk/
    3. Re:DHCP6 preferable to autoconf by unixisc · · Score: 1

      You just get a much bigger range to choose from, which you may use or not.

      The last point is key. To use at least a handful of them, it's a better idea to go w/ DHCP6.

      Define a pool range which will be dynamically allocated, and separately, define a few static IPs for anything that may need it - say a web server, mail server, ftp server & so on. That makes you more secure - not only would one have to scan that entire space, but even in the event that it successfully happens, it won't be good for long, depending on how frequently they are changed.

    4. Re:DHCP6 preferable to autoconf by tlambert · · Score: 2

      DHCP6 is if you are anal and want to explicitly exclude giving routable addresses to random devices.

      The thing that's frequently missed is that you don't have the necessary CERT to do an update to the local DNS server, if you want your machine to update DNS automatically, then you need to have a CERT for a DNS server where you do have update rights.

      Practically, this comes down to my laptop always being named "mylaptop.mygroup.mycompany.com" because I put the IPv6 stateless autoconfiguration address into the DNS server for "mygroup.mycompany.com" mapping it to that name with the CERT, and then the local DNS allows this as an inaddr.arpa. update because the forward check was allowed by my DNS server.

      It doesn't matter if I use this address to send random SPAM, since it comes back to my domain via gethostbyaddr(). This assumes you deploy DomainKeys. If not, then the reverse name doesn't happen, and no one will be willing to relay your SPAM for you anyway.

      If you care about routable addresses, then you probably need to set up a DMZ with a WiFi certificate for the non-DMZ network. This is how GoogleGuest allows people on the Google campus onto the Internet.

  44. That entire block is unemployed by Zeio · · Score: 1

    That entire block is unemployed

    --
    Legalize the constitution. Think for yourself question authority.
    1. Re:That entire block is unemployed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It should get on its bike.

  45. Re:Propaganda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Exactly. IP is a truly ingenious and simple system that has worked well until space started growing short. And, as was on /. not long ago, it has been found to exist in nature in ant trails. When we come up with a routing algorithm that is the same as millions of years of evolution can provide, it's possible that it is as good as it gets. Of course, there must be differences between insect routing and data routing and different environmental pressures - those might help point at routing design deficiencies.

  46. A great opportunity by Chrisq · · Score: 2

    This must be worth more than the Bank of Scotland. Lets sell it quick. The Government is actually much more likely to hold on to it until everyone is on IPv6 and it becomes worthless.

  47. Why IPv4 can't be compatible w/ IPv6 and so on. by unixisc · · Score: 1

    Problem is that if you were to add even 1 bit to IPv4, you'd have to change all networking equipment in the world. Why? B'cos the IP header is the first thing equipment looks @, and then works from there. The moment the length of the source and destination addresses are chnaged, compatibility is lost, and everything in the world needs to be re-worked. Same would have to happen every few years, & @ tremendous cost. Yet, there is no way to solve this problem w/o expanding the source and destination addresses in the protocol, whether you make it 33 bits or 36 or 40 or 64 or 128.

    Therefore, what the IETF did seems like overkill, but actually, they thought long term and came up w/ a solution whereby one wouldn't need to change IP equipment for the foreseeable future. So since they were going to have do do sweeping changes anyway, they also learnt from all the past shortcomings that were there in IPv4, and did what they could to resolve that in IPv6. Some concepts have not been well explained, while some were pretty fluid, like deprecating site-local to site unique or IPv4 compatible addresses. But aside from that, the improvements are such that they solve a whole slew of problems that were just taken for granted in IPv4.

    Only thing - due to the fluidity of the standard, companies have been slow to manufacture IPv6 specific equipment, thereby slowing the rate of adaption. This is a genuine problem.

    1. Re:Why IPv4 can't be compatible w/ IPv6 and so on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is it really so hard to type 'at' instead of '@'?

  48. And have they got DNSUpdate in IPv6? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Because last time I tried to make an IPv6 internal network, I had to go to the old style of "write every machine in the dchp.conf file so I can get an IP address, then add each name to the named.conf so I can get them by name".

    1. Re:And have they got DNSUpdate in IPv6? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cut and paste the macs from the dhcpd log files. If you are crafty, you could dump all of them into a seperate text file with a single command line.

    2. Re:And have they got DNSUpdate in IPv6? by PhotoJim · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Use radvd instead of DHCP6. That way IP addresses are predictable and unique, as long as you use /64 subnets which is standard practice with IPv6.

      You can take a machine's MAC address and predict its IPv6 suffix perfectly. Add it to your /64's prefix and you know your IP. radvd and your clients will figure the same IP out on their own.

    3. Re:And have they got DNSUpdate in IPv6? by Cramer · · Score: 1

      Turn on privacy extentions, which almost every modern OS does by default, and the EUI64 based addresses aren't used. Laptops that can connect via wired or wireless interfaces will have a different address based on what interface was used... undock your laptop and it's address changes and all of your connections drop. (Driver Magic(tm) aside)

      Also, machines don't have MACs; interfaces have MACs. Many machines have multiple NICs and they're replacable. Even Sun eventually learned to stop that stupidity -- the hostid was used to generate a single MAC used by all interfaces; it was a bloody f'ing mess from day one.

  49. In IPv6, defense is easier than attacks by unixisc · · Score: 2

    Blocking a prefix, and thereby a whole host of IP addresses is easy. Targeting a specific IP address out of 18,446,744,073,709,551,616 is hard if they are static, and impossible if they are dynamic. In fact, blocking works better in IPv6 than it does in IPv4.

  50. It works the sane as with IPv4: BADLY. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If I plug my laptop into the internal network or the wireless internet access point (a DMZ), it gets the same name and the same lookup under IPv4 and DNSUpdate but internally it gets access to more things than externally. But none of my scripts or configurations have to change or include both mappings.

    Manually assigning IP addresses is why DNS was invented, ferchrissakes. BECAUSE IT'S A CRAP WAY OF DOING IT.

    But the price of progress is to go back to this cro-magnon method?

    1. Re:It works the sane as with IPv4: BADLY. by smash · · Score: 1

      If you have a home network of less than 14 hosts, just fill the host section with any letter from a to b. eg, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA, BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB, etc. Label each host A, B, etc :D

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
  51. Re:Propaganda by vivian · · Score: 1

    I haven't had a static address ever in my life - yet never have problems connecting from wherever I am to my home machines, thanks to DynDns.
    I don't fully get what the big deal is about having a static address.

  52. Re:Propaganda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The way you mention malicious users gives the impression that you think IPv6 will herald a new world order where all connected hosts will automatically be able to talk to all other connected hosts, with no firewalls or other kinds of security devices anywhere...

    And yes, that would be quite ludicrous, and I would run the other way from that as well.

  53. HAH by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    Why not just ask them to do the right thing and give them back to RIPE?

    David Cameron does not know the word give. Buy and sell, yes; give, no.

  54. IPv6 and Grub2 by someones · · Score: 1

    ... Now that grub2 is finally finished, let us dump that pile of bloated crap (a config generation tool is a great idea) and start grub3.
    So we finally get an awesome bootloader with the features of grub2 minus all the bloat, while maintaining an user-editable config file and also has the new "features" that M$ came up in the meantime.

    Well one could see this the same with ipv4 (grub1) and ipv6 (grub2)...

    1. Re:IPv6 and Grub2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... Now that grub2 is finally finished, let us dump that pile of bloated crap (a config generation tool is a great idea) and start grub3. So we finally get an awesome bootloader with the features of grub2 minus all the bloat, while maintaining an user-editable config file and also has the new "features" that M$ came up in the meantime.

      Well one could see this the same with ipv4 (grub1) and ipv6 (grub2)...

      ermahgerd blooatt ! blooat bloooooooooaat 2k bigger? BLOOAAATT omg how much BLOAT??? I cant handle the bloaty bloatfest of bloat! BLLOOOOOAAAATTTT

  55. /etc/hosts instead by Danathar · · Score: 2

    I don't want somebody knowing who I'm looking up so I downloaded the entire DNS and dumped it into my /etc/hosts file. I feel so safe now....

  56. We need to end classful routing on IPv4 now. by davydagger · · Score: 1

    With exception to users of massive networks that have justification for their Class A and Bs, we need to recind ownership of unsued class A and Bs, or in case of partial use, let them keep using what they have already.

    We need to split partially used Class As (0-126) into Class Bs and Cs into unused class Bs and Cs for redistribution.

    Since the advent of subnets, classful routing is unneccary and outdated.

    Cue some communist jokes now.

    1. Re:We need to end classful routing on IPv4 now. by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      Or we could just invest in switching to IPv6 instead of paying people to push papers to make this happen.

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
  57. Re:Propaganda by petermgreen · · Score: 2

    Having a public IP that changes from time to time is mildly annoying but can be worked arround with stuff like dyndns.

    Not having a public IP at all is much worse.

    --
    note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
  58. Slashdot post in 2022 by upside · · Score: 4, Funny

    "The Slashdot user known as bbn has a /48 block of IPv6 addresses that is unused. An e-petition was created ..."

    --
    I'm sorry if I haven't offended anyone
    1. Re:Slashdot post in 2022 by bobcat7677 · · Score: 1

      The parent was modded funny, but really this is the truth. It's sortof an arms race...especially since there has been so much scary talk to get people to move off IPv4. So once things really start moving with v6, silly paranoid companies and governments will start grabbing whatever space they can get their fingers on and voila!, we will be "out of addresses" again, even though billions of addresses go unused. The other side of the coin will be "wasteful spending" of IP addresses when manufacturers start assigning IPv6 addresses to everything they make, even if it doesn't need one. Mark my words...it WILL happen.

    2. Re:Slashdot post in 2022 by unixisc · · Score: 1

      That's only if people/companies are obsessed w/ having many prefixes, as opposed to actual addresses. Generally, most networks would be happy w/ just a single prefix, if they know that they have all the addresses they'd ever conceivably need. At worst, a /48 should be plenty - who on earth would need 65,536 subnets?

      That said, I've never agreed w/ the 64:64 split b/w network and hosts. A 96:32 would have been more like it. Just think about it - no subnet would ever have anything even near a million, much less 4 billion users - the collision rate would be huge. So a 96:32, where the first half was completely fixed for being doled out, but the subnet then started from the 65th bit and went down to the 95th, would have sufficed. (That may seem large for the number of subnets, but in reality, it would allow a hierarchical structuring or even a nesting of networks up to 4 or 8 levels)

    3. Re:Slashdot post in 2022 by doshell · · Score: 1

      I believe the reason the host part has so many bits does not have to do with expected subnet size, but rather serves to ensure the probability that two autoconfiguring hosts coincidentally choose the same address is kept low.

      --
      Score: i, Imaginary
  59. Re:Propaganda by jbolden · · Score: 1

    DynDns worked because cycle speeds were slow; often months almost never worse than daily. In a few years your ISP is going to be recycling that v4 address much more quickly. When it becomes every 10 minutes that DynDNS doesn't hold up so well.

  60. Re:Propaganda by shentino · · Score: 1

    With companies like Charter playing games with DNS and NXDOMAIN I would hardly call "users" an exclusive group in the set of "malicious entities"

  61. Re:Propaganda by shentino · · Score: 1

    The needs of ISPs that want to forbid servers on residential connections and force you to pay a premium for a business grade connection and a static IP are VERY well solved by NAT.

    And guess who owns the pipes?

  62. Filed under yro by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because I'm ENTITLED to those IPs.

  63. Pay now or pay later by JSBiff · · Score: 1

    You don't think that you, as a consumer and taxpayer, will just end up paying that 1Bn quid? Companies never pay for anything - their customers do. If the government raises revenue on them, it'll just get past right back to you.

  64. That's what they want you to think by Type44Q · · Score: 1

    UK Government Owns 16.9 Million Unused IPv4 Addresses

    These are actually in use - they're for the IBM "Big Nanny" processors that are installed in the heads of 1/4 of the UK population. ;)

  65. I'm rolling Microsoft-style by JSBiff · · Score: 2

    I call dibs on B16B:00B5!

  66. Wrong... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Unless you are running Windows 8 which will helpfully rewrite your hosts file for you when you are done." - by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 18, @07:08AM (#41372757)

    The problem was in MS Security Essentials/Windows Defender - add hosts in its exclusion lists, no more problem!

    * I've been using MS Security Essentials since it was introduced, & I've also been using this "workaround" since then... no hassles, & easy to do!

    (Lastly/Additionally - I wonder who the FOOL is that modded you up to "INFORMATIVE", when you're giving out shitty MISINFORMATION?)

    APK

    P.S.=> Per the above - You MAY want to read this:

    http://www.ghacks.net/2012/08/19/you-cant-block-facebook-using-windows-8s-hosts-file/

    PERTINENT QUOTE/EXCERPT:

    ---

    "Update: Tom just pointed out that turning off Windows Defender, which basically is Microsoft Security Essentials, in Windows 8 will resolve the issue. It appears that the program has been designed to protect some hosts from being added to the Windows hosts file. To turn off Windows Defender press the Windows key, type Windows Defender and hit enter. This launches the program. Switch to Settings here and select Administrator on the left. Locate Turn on Windows Defender and uncheck the preference and click save changes afterwards."

    (They're INCORRECT also - you don't *have* to "turn it off" - you can just do what I stated above... & of course, there's ALWAYS alternate antivirus/antispyware too!)

    ---

    ... apk

  67. If it's completely private, couldn't they release? by JSBiff · · Score: 1

    If it's a completely private network, couldn't they release the public block and use a private block (like 10.*)?

    The point of *unique* addresses is to allow global routing. But if you never intend to do global routing of traffic to/from endpoints in the private network, well, isn't that what the private network blocks are for - non-globally unique, but locally unique, use?

  68. Exclusion list "how to" in MS Security Essentials by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How to access & use the exclusion/exception list in MS Sec. Essentials:

    (In regards to my initial post -> http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3124419&cid=41373887 I am replying to now, to supplement it with accurate information)

    PERTINENT QUOTE/EXCERPT:

    ---

    "You can also access the Exception and Exclusion list under this tab which is a rather odd place to put it. It should have been only under the Settings tab because that is the first place where I (or everyone else) would look."

    ---

    FROM -> http://www.lostintechnology.com/windows/microsoft-security-essentials-review/

    (The HISTORY tab, which allows Quarantining, Deleting, or ALLOWING various processes or files to exist IS THE TICKET here... I also agree with the author that THIS should have been under the "SETTINGS" tab, but that's what you get when you have interface designers who built "METRO" for Windows 8 too... senseless design! Though I dislike putting MS down, they too, have issues @ times... Windows 8? Will be an "issue" for them on PC's, mark my words...)

    APK

    P.S.=> Thus? "Here endeth the lesson..."

    ... apk

  69. "First discovered the unused block" by craigwilkie · · Score: 1

    Well, I'm surprised that someone only "discovered" this 4 days ago.

    With this being a /8, I'd have thought it was quite well known before last Friday. In fact, I'm sure people have been well aware of it for quite a while now!

  70. Another /8 to take... by afgun · · Score: 1

    Why not ask HP to give up one of its 2 (!) Class-A subnets?

  71. Can the big computer companies switch? by unixisc · · Score: 1

    Only problem - the same reason legacy users are not switching to IPv4 - is that once you try to get them to break up their /8 into smaller subnets which then get shared w/ others, the simple configuration that they may have had for years might be gone. For instance, some of them may have had networking equipment that only recognized Classful addressing, and had no concept of CIDR or subnetting. The moment you try to force them to switch, it involves a considerable amount of investment & work, in which case, they might as well go all the way to IPv6.

    Actually, coming to think of it - some of the early recipients of these blocks include computer companies who would definitely have upgraded their networking equipment several times over the years. Some of them include IBM (9.x.x.x), Apple (17.x.x.x), HP (HP 15.x.x.x & DEC 16.x.x.x). Some of these companies have been very early in supporting IPv6 e.g. IBM in AIX, while Apple automatically supports it as a result of its FBSD underpinnings. So can't they switch to dual stack and only use IPv4 for external facing services that actually require it, such as web servers? Such a move won't alleviate things much, though, so in the end, it's fine just letting these IPv4 addresses vanish, and forcing the move to IPv6.

    1. Re:Can the big computer companies switch? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Is any of that classful-only equipment still in use? It's gone beyond obsolete by now, even by government standards.

  72. Hackney borough council in London by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hackney borough council in London has one too.

  73. Not routed for a reason? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I suspect that much like the US military, the UK reserves blocks from the global address space, uses them on a classified network and are obviously NOT advertised on the unclassified internet. This is probably one of those blocks. You also won't see the 22.x.x.x/8 out there.

  74. Re:If it's completely private, couldn't they relea by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

    That works very well until you try to connect a new department up, and discover they also used 10.* for their network.

  75. And so, the 2012 IPv4 riots begin ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Shotguns for all. The best defence against idiots milling about outside your gates wanting you to share your intellectual property.

  76. SCO by tokul · · Score: 1

    SCO has two A class blocks. Petition them.

    1. Re:SCO by unixisc · · Score: 1

      That could pull them out of Ch 7.

  77. But Grandma! by slick7 · · Score: 1

    "To better watch you, my Dearie."

    --
    The mind conceives, the body achieves, the spirit manifests.
  78. Privatise them! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Given that it's a Tory government shouldn't they sell shares in them?

  79. Easy to remember by unixisc · · Score: 2

    Somebody should make a list of all words of 4 letters of 4 letters or less, made up of A, B, C, D, E, F, G (6), I (1), O(0), S (5) and Z (2). Publish a dictionary of just those words. They can be used in composing IPv6 addresses that are easy to remember. And to make it simple, only English words for this exercise :-)

    1. Re:Easy to remember by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a short list, but has some real gems in it.

      abed aced aces acid adds adze aide aids baas babe bade base bass bead beds beef bees bias bibs bide bids boas bobs bode boob boos boss bozo cabs cads case cede cobs coda code cods coed coif coos dabs dado dads dais daze dead deaf debs deed dice died dies disc diss docs dodo does doff dose doze ease ebbs face fade fads faze feds feed fees fibs fief fife fizz fobs foci foes food ibis iced ices idea ides oafs oboe odds odes offs ooze sacs safe said sass scab scad seas secs seed sees sics side size sobs soda sods sofa zeds zoos

    2. Re:Easy to remember by unixisc · · Score: 2

      Thanks - I copied those. Actually, the list would be much longer than that, since I said 4 letters or less. Also, if I had made it 8 letters or less, that would have made it a lot more. But using those words to lock either the upper or lower half of the interface ID (the hosts part of the address), and then letting the other word vary as per the user needs - allocating a range to dynamic, while assigning some static. It would be easy to remember something like 2001:4fad:1357:6:xxxx:add5, and then, the only thing that has to be remembered about the node address is xxxx. And there too, one could use just decimal numbers and drop the a-f, or they could just use a-f and drop the numbers... A whole range of possibilities.

  80. 256 links of 2^64 by unixisc · · Score: 1

    When analyzing it, just segregate the 56 from the 64th bit. In other words, you have the potential of having 256 separate subnets (e.g. wireless router SSIDs) on you network from that one provider. For most home users, even a /60 is enough, if they need to segregate their networks. So you still have 'just' 2*64 addresses for your home LAN, but you also now have a choice of prefixes, if you were worrying like some other posters above about your prefix being fixed and identifying you

    1. Re:256 links of 2^64 by bbn · · Score: 1

      /60 is actually 16 subnets.

      Even though that 99% would be fine with a /60 there simply is no reason not to give them all a /48. The extra bits are being wasted anyway so why not let people play with it? Plus the ISP will not have to deal with corporate and private customers having different prefix sizes - one size fits all is going to save them bucks in management.
       

    2. Re:256 links of 2^64 by unixisc · · Score: 1

      I stand corrected - /60 would be 16, /56 would be 256 and /52 would be 4096 and /48 65,536.

      I don't agree that they are wasted if the ISP hands out blocks smaller than /48. If anything, they are more likely to be efficiently used by ISPs, which is why I've suggested that the standard itself should have assigned the top 64 to the global prefix, and split the lower 64 b/w subnet and hosts. In fact, while ARIN might liberally dole out /48, others like APNIC and RIPE are handing out /56. Obviously, they have a bigger demand on blocks.

      Having the top half as the global prefix would allow for a hierarchical drill down - the first word could be a combination of RIR and country, the 2nd word could be a combination of the ISP and a state/region/province/city, and the third & fourth words could be assigned to customers. That way, ISPs could dole out IPs to customers that are PI addresses and all that, w/o worrying about the HD density. Further down, the customers could choose to split it either w/ more subnets or allowing autoconfiguration.

  81. No need for IPv6 then by nukenerd · · Score: 1

    If the UK Gov releases these, that should keep IPv4 going a few more days.

  82. Re:Propaganda by doshell · · Score: 1

    The grandparent is not talking about static addresses, he/she is talking about public addresses which are not the same thing.

    --
    Score: i, Imaginary
  83. Re:Propaganda by Cramer · · Score: 1

    May be, but you've always had a PUBLIC IP address. When your ISP assigns you 192.168.38.45, how do you expect to connect to that from your hotel room? This is the problem parts of the world *already* face. Many APNIC ISPs have been deploying CGN for some time now. US cellphone networks have been known to do that as well. (99% of the time you won't notice.)

  84. Ok then... by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 1

    Just get the government to sell off at a profit their 15 million addresses leaving them with 1 million (really, come on, that should be enough!)
    This would also make them some money to balance off the overspending in the past on technology....

  85. Re:Propaganda by fm6 · · Score: 1

    And in order to make it scale we had to throw out a lot of the original concepts. Which is my point.

    I get so tired of false dichotomies on Slashdot. Believing that the original conception of the Internet had flaws is not the same thing as believing that the entire thing was a mistake.

  86. Re:Propaganda by fm6 · · Score: 1

    If there's no intelligent designer, how do you explain the fact that the human nostril is exactly the right size for the human forefinger!!!!!?????

  87. Re:Propaganda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Charter doesn't resolve xvideos.com

  88. Re:Propaganda by thegarbz · · Score: 1

    It's not a false dichotomy to point out that the one major complaint is not one that we needed to throw out to get the working internet. The problem with the internet was availability of public address space, yet somehow this has turned into being against a properly functioning end-to-end network, a concept which underpins many of the technologies that we have currently shoehorned ontop of the internet including things like VPN.

    In an attempt to solve one problem we've created another, and then proposed all manner of ugly hacks, and really NAT with UPNP can really be considered nothing other than an ugly hack and then added a routing layer on top of that to get us back to where we were to begin with.

    My comment is that the original concept of the internet as an end-to-end network is sound and just because NAT exists doesn't mean we shouldn't attempt to get rid of this routing nightmare of an idea. It offers no benefit over having computers publicly addressable and an access control system in front of it, while at the same time actually breaking many protocols in the process.

  89. Autoconf vs network addresses limitations by unixisc · · Score: 1

    Understood, but autoconfiguration is IMO less important than ensuring that there ain't too many wasted addresses. I do hope that when we get to 3000:/4, they change it from 48:16:64 to 64:16:48 or 64:32:32. The former would still be good for autoconfigured addresses, while the latter woud be good for hierarchical subnetting

    1. Re:Autoconf vs network addresses limitations by smash · · Score: 1

      You do realise just how many IP addresses we have with IPv6? Even if they had only 34 bits for the network part, thats about 2-3 networks (of 2^94 possible hosts) for every man, woman and child on the planet.

      If that runs out, we can go to NAT, which plenty of the 'tards seem so reluctant to give up.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    2. Re:Autoconf vs network addresses limitations by unixisc · · Score: 1

      That's not the point. The point is that different RIRs now have differing policies about how to assign addresses. ISPs get given /32s, and they in turn dole out anything from /48 to /64. My suggestion was to have uniform structures - each country gets a /16, and within that country, each ISP a /32. They would in turn have 4 billion /64s to hand out to all organizations, customers and so on. Further down, each organization or customer could decide what was more important - more levels of subnetting, or autoconfiguration. It's these things that consume all those extra bits, and what's more, your solution of adding just 2 bits would force this sort of change every few years, which really is unneeded for the growth of the internet.

  90. IPv4 supported addresses in IPv6 by unixisc · · Score: 1

    Both were there. Just the ::x.x.x.x was there - that was something called IPv4-compatible addresses, and then ::ffff:x.x.x.x, which was IPv4-mapped addresses. The first standard includes the equivalents to the current network address 0.0.0.0 (which is :: in IPv6) and the loopback address 127.0.0.1 (which is ::1 in IPv6). But the IPv4 compatible addresses have been deprecated, as other mechanisms for IPv6-IPv4 communications, such as tunnelling, dual-stack lite, and Teredo/Miredo had been developed. IPv4-mapped addresses are still in the standard, but their implementation varies, and therefore, their use is not encouraged.

  91. Re:Propaganda by fm6 · · Score: 1

    The problem with the internet was availability of public address space,

    No, that's the problem we're talking about now. There have been many others.

  92. Or we could see you stop RUNNING, "Forrest" (lol) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From documented sources you couldn't disprove http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3110069&cid=41346029 which you ran from, troll.