Australian Smart Meter Data Shared Far and Wide

New submitter ferrisoxide.com writes "In Victoria (Australia), detailed information about electricity customers' power usage, which gives insights into when a house is occupied, is being shared with third parties including mail houses, debt collectors, data processing analysts and government agencies."

Comments

Color me surprised.

[MyLongNickName]

Color me surprised. I also expect campaign promises to be kept.

Re:Color me surprised.

[davester666]

said the lone remaining tenant of Sealand...

Re:Color me surprised.

[Anonymous Coward]

New Sealand, you probably mean. Sealand is a province in the Netherlands.

Re:Color me surprised.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's still called "Zeeland" (or "Zealand") in English.

Re:Color me surprised.

[Anonymous Coward]

I know - it's terrible. Imagine your power usage information being shared with a Mailing House! What possible use could they have for it? Surely the power company hand writes your bills and licks every envelope individually like everyone else!

Re:Color me surprised.

[MyLongNickName]

Imagine your power usage information being shared with a Mailing House!

Kinda cute how you ignored the other parties being furnished this information and went with the most innocuous example.

Re:Color me surprised.

[tqk]

New Sealand, you probably mean.

Nope. See this.

Re:Color me surprised.

[Tastecicles]

the Principality of Sealand, I think he means. This is a manmade structure 7nm off the coast of Suffolk which has been privately occupied pretty much since it was abandoned by the British military (it was originally an early warning station and anti-aircraft platform).

Re:Color me surprised.

[Anonymous Coward]

And Zealand is also the English name for the Danish island of Sjaelland - you know, where Copenagen is.

Re:Color me surprised.

[Anonymous Coward]

The other examples being the Australian Tax Office and the company that made the website.

Re:Color me surprised.

[bickerdyke]

And Lew Zealand is a boomerang fish thrower!

Re:Color me surprised.

[ThinkingIsContagious]

the Principality of Sealand, I think he means. This is a manmade structure 7nm off the coast of Suffolk which has been privately occupied pretty much since it was abandoned by the British military (it was originally an early warning station and anti-aircraft platform).

I'm sure you meant 7 nautical miles, but I totally read it as 7 nanometers.

Shocked

[0123456]

I am absolutely shocked that, despite the assurances from 'smart meter' fanboys, this data has been handed out to all and sundry just as we expected. How

Re:Shocked

[Razgorov Prikazka]

So.... You actually believed them? That is slightly naive isn't it?
Info=$$$ It is always been that way, and will always be that way. Anyone knows that, so it is a pretty stupid idea to have yourself monitored that way.
No matter what the fanboys say. Smartmeters are for dumb people (assuming one has a choice).
What is next, smart-tv's, smart browsers, smart shoes that tell where you are walking?

Re:Shocked

[angel'o'sphere]

The story left aside ...
Do you actually know what a smart meter is and what the point is to have one?
Just curious.

Re:Shocked

[Anonymous Coward]

This is only one company. If you didn't already know origin are giant dicks, but they are the only ones that do this. Sign up with any other retailer and meter provider and this will not happen. Just use metering dynamics or agl and they will look after your data.

Re:Shocked

[Razgorov Prikazka]

Respectively "yes" and "I don't care".

Re:Shocked

[Dr Max]

Info does = money and that is exactly why people put up smart meters. Most business have a peak demand charge when they buy bulk electricity, smart metering lets the customer know when and what causes that, so it can be minimized and greatly minimise his bill. It's also useful to the average joe consumer who wants to export power back to the grid. Maybe some one else that wants to buy power at the cheap off peak rate and store it in a battery bank for when the price is high. It allows for all kinds of different billing methods that can greatly reward taking stress of the network when it needs it. Smart metering is all about saving money by knowing what the network is doing. Everything you mentioned already exists, smart tv's that record the shows it thinks you'll like so you don't have to, smart browsers that remember your history have been around since the internet started, and smart shoes have been brought out by Nike for exercises freaks. Knowledge is power for all who embrace it. That said I most defiantly can not condone what Origin is doing with the customer's data, and can only assure you that they are the only retailer doing this. Choose the other guys (it's completely up to the customer) and they have very strict rules in place about who gets access. Origin are giant dicks, giving the rest of us a bad name. We have enough problems already trying to convince all the idiots that these setups have no more radiation than an iphone and their old meter.

Re:Shocked

[causality]

So.... You actually believed them? That is slightly naive isn't it? Info=$$$ It is always been that way, and will always be that way. Anyone knows that, so it is a pretty stupid idea to have yourself monitored that way. No matter what the fanboys say. Smartmeters are for dumb people (assuming one has a choice). What is next, smart-tv's, smart browsers, smart shoes that tell where you are walking?

To see these things coming before they actually happen is a great way to be told that your tinfoil hat is too tight.

That's why this kind of understanding (of what should be obvious) is so rarely appreciated. It belongs to a small minority who know their reasoning is sound with no concern for popularity. That's not the way I would have it, but that's the way it is.

Re:Shocked

[causality]

This is only one company. If you didn't already know origin are giant dicks, but they are the only ones that do this. Sign up with any other retailer and meter provider and this will not happen. Just use metering dynamics or agl and they will look after your data.

That will inevitably change, just as soon as a slick salesman gives them a nice pitch about how such data can be monetized. It is only a matter of time. If the current management won't ever consider it under any circumstances no matter how much money they are offered (unlikely), future management will. Once it becomes a revenue stream, it will be depended upon as part of the budget and will not be reversed. "We will remove this revenue stream to fulfill non-material values" has never been popular among shareholders, however wise.

It is a general principle of inertia and inevitability that, for some reason, continues to be poorly understood by too many. You see the same thing with the legal system (the US income tax was "a temporary wartime measure").

The most telling mark of such events is that they are pushed by the institution and not the result of overwhelming demand by its customers/constituents.

Re:Shocked

[Dr Max]

I am all for no video camera network and no government enforced internet snooping but this is hardly the case with smart meters. I work for a smart meter company (not these douches in question) and your making it sound like we have this god like power, when there is a lot less data there than you think which can be very easily masked by a number of things. All we see is a usage per half an hour, and that figure could be made up of any number of different appliences. Yes you could make assumptions based on time like when a big spike kicks in at 6 oclock it's could be the oven, but he could just as easily have a massive computer. Also i don't know who you think cares when you cook a roast, but it's not like it's watching every place you drive too with licence plate scanners. If your really worried about this (and aren't happy with using someone other than origin) just get a bunch of batteries charge them up on off peak power at night and use battery power during the day, you'll save money, the network will like you because you put less stress on the network, and you'll be happy because the metering company won't be able to guess what you might be doing. Now the police department and tax office they have much juicer concrete information on you.

Re:Shocked

[Anonymous Coward]

With the number of things we need to worry about these days, smart metering is absolutely at the bottom. There are a million ways to fool it, and the information isn't all that interesting any way (unless you get really excited about when people use hair dryers and air con).

Re:Shocked

[causality]

I work for a smart meter company (not these douches in question) and your making it sound like we have this god like power, when there is a lot less data there than you think which can be very easily masked by a number of things.

I appreciate what you're saying, though you must understand that you are not the most unbiased source of information.

That you wouldn't abuse what power can be had, does not mean Origin is the only one who will. They are proving that it takes much, much less than "god-like power" to hassle me and betray my trust. I do not hire an electric utility to rat me out to debt collectors. I hire them to provide electricity. I give them money, they give me units of electricity, and our relationship should end there.

Until we really do solve this gigantic social problem of "I can't just live my life and let other people live theirs, with a policy of non-interference based on respecting that anything you choose not to actively share is none of my fucking business, because that would be too easy" then we're going to keep playing whack-a-mole with each new opportunity to spy on your neighbor and approve or disapprove of how he/she lives.

Until the problem is really solved and people start realizing that if you care so much about how other people live, it means you are a pathetic nobody who is not living your own life (as a side-effect this would destroy the entire tabloid/paparazzi industry), then privacy is the only reasonable way to go. The only really effective way to do that is on a need-to-know basis. What with current database and retention capabilities, what seems harmless now could bite you in the future. People who were denied employment because of legal yet slightly-not-politically-correct Facebook posts discovered that the hard way.

I never asked the world to work this way. In fact, I have repeatedly spoken out against the course it's on. So long as the world insists on doing it this way, I will do whatever is necessary to avoid getting caught up in it. You think that's an argument against the potential benefits of smart meters, or the benevolence of the average employee? That's a very single-minded position. It could only come from taking it too personally merely because you work in the industry. That's what I mean about bias. What I am actually talking about is far greater than you, me, or any single company.

Re:Shocked

[causality]

With the number of things we need to worry about these days, smart metering is absolutely at the bottom. There are a million ways to fool it, and the information isn't all that interesting any way (unless you get really excited about when people use hair dryers and air con).

So you are willfully neglecting the principle, merely because you see no current significance to its presently immediate applications?

Most of these "things to worry about" boil down to a few major philosophical ideas. You can understand that and focus on the major ideas. You can also fail to understand that and see millions of "issues" that you'd never have time for because you are unable to grasp how they are interrelated and proceed from the same root. Life is full of choices.

Re:Shocked

[Anonymous Coward]

With the number of things we need to worry about these days, smart metering is absolutely at the bottom.

Oh please. You can tackle more than one issue at a time, and all you have to do is say "no" to smart meters.

Re:Shocked

[MyLongNickName]

I believe the OP was an example of "sarcasm".

Re:Shocked

[Tastecicles]

apart from the fact that they use the obsoleted GSM900 bandwidth (channels, even) to build their mesh network via neighbourhood hubs and landlines, that said wireless links are two way, which means that not only is information passed back and forth between meters and hubs, so are instructions (such as kill switch). This presents a problem as anyone with a 934MHz transceiver (rare in the UK since they're now illegal to operate, have been since the block was reallocated to GSM) can simply key on CH1 and potentially kill grid power to any property so equipped, for miles, as the strength of the signal will overwhelm the meter... for those with access to a 934, try keying CH1 next to a GSM900 cellphone.

Re:Shocked

[psiclops]

cool, so i'm saying no to smart meters. can i safely assume the problem has just magically gone away?

Re:Shocked

[mcbridematt]

The ones in my area (here in Victoria,Australia) are frequency hopping in the 900MHz unlicensed use band (never has been used for GSM900 here). Jamming one channel won't kill anyones supply. Apparently each meter has an IPv6 based connection as well.

Re:Shocked

[Dr Max]

If your really so worried that some one is going to use the amount of electricity you used in a 30 minute interval against you in some way; Then good news friend it's never been easier to go off grid, solar panels, wind generator, and batteries are at an all new low price. No one is forcing you to buy their electricity.

Re:Shocked

[Anonymous Coward]

Care to elaborate on all these evil ways the government is going to use my 30 minute load profile against me. I can think of hundreds for internet snooping and camera networks, but smart meters will really only be used to make the network more efficient.

Re:Shocked

[Anonymous Coward]

Just like no one is forcing you to live in your home country... a ridiculous thing to say. The alternatives may be "at an all new low price," but most people still can't afford it.

And all this could be fixed by... not giving out the fucking information! If people didn't want it, they wouldn't be able to give it out so freely.

Re:Shocked

[Tastecicles]

(take it from someone who [still] owns a Cybernet Delta 1): the 934 rigs are notorious bleed boxes. Even with a 1.1 SWR (as close to perfect antenna balance as you'll ever get) you can bleed out over 600kHz each way with a 50W amp. The issue was that the equipment was overpowered and undercooled for what was being asked of it (30 miles on an average day?), the bleed induced by the linear amplifiers cooking themselves very quickly. With anything less than perfect SWR you'll bleed out even further into neighbouring bands.

FWIW, GSM900 was never widely adopted in the UK, distributors instead preferring GSM1800. The 934 crowd never got their bandwidth back to this day.

Thing is, GSM never even touched 934. GSM900 uses 890–915 MHz to send information from the mobile station to the base station (uplink) and 935–960 MHz for the other direction (downlink), providing 124 RF channels (channel numbers 1 to 124) spaced at 200 kHz. Duplex spacing of 45 MHz is used. Guard bands 100 kHz wide are placed at either end of the range of frequencies.

Re:Shocked

[Dr Max]

I in no way condone what origin has done with the data (why the hell are debt collectors getting access?), but the guy i was replying to was making it sound like the collection was evil (and if your not happy with any of the 5 meter providers (not all as bad as origin), then you don't have to use the network). It's like complaining the phone company keeps a record of who you call when and for how long. The only person that should have any interest in that data is the customer, the retailer and maybe the network they are running on (bare with me here), the network doesn't care what you are doing individually, but seeing how lots of houses use their power through out the day, they can better plan future infrastructure upgrades.

Re:Shocked

[TapeCutter]

You don't have a choice, they just turn up and install it. It's modern infrastructure not a moral dilemma, the obvious way for government/society to control the electricity industry is to control the distribution network, every house in Victoria will get a government funded smart meter that can operate in reverse so now the electricity lobbyists can't bitch about the cost of implementing net metering when the electricity companies are told THEY have no choice about buying back electricity generated by their customers solar panels and what-not. Installing these meters is opening up the electricity industry to the common man far beyond the current role of minority shareholder. If you believe in a free market economy this is exactly the kind of "free market"** the government should be building.

Aside from the direct employment the project creates, when combined with recent government rebates on solar panels and solar hot water there has also been a boom in new business selling, installing and maintaining these small systems. Ironically the political scare tactics on the carbon tax have also helped fuel those new solar business' over the last year or so. Seems a more productive use of an ex-meter reader's time than trampling other people's gardens all day to collect pennies for Mr Burns. The only "losers" here are the monolithic electricity companies, sure they get a short term profit boost from liquidating thier army of meter readers but they are also being forced (and paid) to install the infrastructure that will turn their captive customers into a million small competitors. Worse still, for the electricity companies, is that householders will receive 60c KW/hr for excess electricity they generate (roughly 3X the current retail price), this gives householders the incentive to buy an extra panel or two upfront.

**"free market" - "Free" as in anyone can participate. "Market" as in a set of laws governing the generation and trade of electricity. Electricity companies have been fighting net metering laws for decades, they ran out of technological excuses before the fight even started in earnest, now they have no political excuses except for the cost of stiff competition.

Re:Shocked

[Anonymous Coward]

Does it measure PF? Line noise?

Worse, can it upload line noise samples?

You are not too bright about what can be done with just a little data.

Re:Shocked

[skegg]

I agree that this is towards the bottom end of importance given other issues we have in society.

However:

1. How the government and companies are behaving in such a "small" area (is violating our privacy small?) while at the same feverishly protecting theirs is a sign of their general attitude.

2. I could accept this issue be abandoned if our governments cost us taxpayers $1 billion / year to run. However our various levels of government cost us many, many, many billions to run each year, so the bastards can and should be mindful of what's happening in health, education, roads, defense ... and every other bloody area which we pay to be supported / monitored. We have federal and state privacy commissioners who go to work and draw a decent salary. They should earn their bloody pay!

Re:Shocked

[Dr Max]

It measures kwatts and kvarh total per 30 min so you can figure out the average pf for that interval (very useful to the network so they know if they need to install more cap banks). Any line noise would be average out over the period. If your referring to audio frequency load control, then no the smart meters are not capable of uploading it, although they could receive it (meters and hot water systems have been doing that for yonks, that's how you can get different tarrifs). If you know of something evil the government is going to do with your kw and kvarh data (averaged over 30 minutes intervals) then please elaborate, because i can't think of much.

Re:Shocked

[nospam007]

"Do you actually know what a smart meter is and what the point is to have one?"

Sure, after all, I'm smarter than my meter, although I had to switch my indoor 'tomato' growing installation to gas-lights.

Re:Shocked

[tibit]

That's a shit piece of linear amp if it distorts the baseband in and of itself, never mind if it distorts more simply because it got hot. I would really like to see the spectra before-and-after the amp. Is the amp you mention a part of the transmitter?

Re:Shocked

[Anonymous Coward]

Info=$$$ It is always been that way, and will always be that way.

"Knowledge is power" -- Baruch Spinoza (1632-1677)

Re:Shocked

[Dereck1701]

" it's never been easier to go off grid" That may not be entirely true, while home power generation costs are far lower than they were a few years ago there are still significant issues to having an entirely off grid home. First off is of course the cost, while in the long term off grid prices are now competitive with on grid, the initial costs are difficult for most people to cope with (~$35,000 if you do most of the install yourself). Then there is the building code/regulation issues, in some areas they are so specifically written for "normal" homes that getting permits for occupancy/construction or even finding certified electricians that will do the final hookups is difficult. Don't get me wrong, I'd love it if every home in the country had a solar/wind system feeding a regenerative fuel cell and power lines were going the way of the dodo, but if it ever happens its going to take a long time and its not going to be easy.

Re:Shocked

[Dr Max]

$35000 would get you an amazing system. $5000 - $15000 would get you out of trouble. $15000 if you put everything on batteries and an inverter. $5000 if you put stuff like the fridge, cooking, and water heating on gas then run a generator for the washing machine (then you can drastically reduce your battery supply if you don't have to generate 5 kw at a time).

Re:Shocked

[Dr Max]

Also in Australia you can do whatever you want on your property generation wise (sparkeys have to do the electrical work over 50 volts) but there are tight conditions on what your allowed to export back to the grid. You don't have to submit anything to council to put up panels (you have to talk to your electricity network/retailer to get paid for generation though). It's just like if you had a boat or a caravan you can hook up as many panels as you want to charge batteries and what not, but try and hook it up to the local network and you'll have trouble.

Re:Shocked

[Anonymous Coward]

We should get rid of state government and divvy the job up to local and federal. We spend so much time and money inventing a very similar wheel 8 times for each state, for no reason.

Re:Shocked

[Tastecicles]

no, it's a box the size of a walkman that runs off its own power supply - the string goes rig-amp-SWR meter-antenna in my setup. Without the amp the kit runs 6W and has a range of about 1200 yards. I think the firestick might be a bit duff tho...

Re:Shocked

[tibit]

It's kinda hard to fit much in the way of filters for 900MHz in a box that size. I'd have probably done a more controlled design where the incoming band (entire thing) is downconverted, filtered, upconverted and then amplified. The main problem with not-very-selective linear amps is that they can't but make the specs of the original transmitter worse. If the 6W transmitter already is close to hitting leakage limits, then the amp can't help with that without processing the signal, and that can't be done at 6W power level unless you have a couple rack units of height to work with. Anything walkman sized 50W must be the entire transmitter if you want to actually have any control over what it puts on the air, so if it's fed from another transmitter it can't reuse the signal as-is.

Heck, if that band had fixed channel allocation (I don't know if it does), then I'd have gone as far as digitally isolating individual transmitted channel in the downconverted IF (cutting the leakage) -- using an A/D and a DSP on the downconverted transmitter output. On the DAC you side you can then use all the harmonic upconversion harmonic tricks that are available, heck, you can even sample your own transmitted signal and apply linearizations in the transfer function to limit further improve the quality of signal that's put on the air. These days all that can be done for an extra 5W of power consumption for the ADC, DAC and DSP, in more-or-less quite amateur designer circumstances, for multiple channels in parallel. If you have only one tx channel to deal with, it's even simpler. Folks with money for an ASIC could do it with probably 1W.

Re:Shocked

[Alex Pennace]

the obvious way for government/society to control the electricity industry is to control the distribution network, every house in Victoria will get a government funded smart meter that can operate in reverse so now the electricity lobbyists can't bitch about the cost of implementing net metering when the electricity companies are told THEY have no choice about buying back electricity generated by their customers solar panels and what-not.

Sounds like the government in Victoria got hoodwinked, or older Australian electric meters are special. In North America, even our old spinning disc, five dial electric meters run just fine in reverse when power is passing through out to the grid.

Re:Shocked

[Anonymous Coward]

For those of you still on analog meters; DON'T GET A SMART METER!!!

Your electricity bills WILL GO UP.

You get off peak rates 24/7 and can't be billed peak rates during ANY period.

Re:Shocked

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't give any citations for this, because I no longer work for the power company - and am very glad I don't.
I did however work on a Smartmeter project in Victoria, and the data that was being collected was originally anonymous as planned by the previous Victorian State Government (Labor)

Then when we changed governments to the current Victorian State Government (LNP), they were originally talking about investigating shutting down the project. The queries we saw were not about shutting it down however, but about what data could be collected that wasn't anonymous and using that to raise revenue.

The LNP opposed the project for privacy concerns, then when they got in they supported it, but abolished the privacy elements.

It was a disgusting time, and the main reason I am no longer working there.

Re:Shocked

[Macgrrl]

Are you referring to the Radio Mesh installations or the WiMAX installations? There are two different network infrastructures being deployed in the Victorian Smart Meter rollout, depending on which distributor you are referencing.

Disclaimer - I spent 2 years working on the Smart Meter installation project involved primarily in change management for the network rollout.

Re:Shocked

[thogard]

900 to 914 is not an unlicensed band in Australia. The Amateur radio operators still have 915 but the USM band here is 916 to 929. Vodafone will be very unhappy with you if you are using 914 and you will get to talk to the guys at the ACMA about it.

Re:Shocked

[Macgrrl]

The meters are provided by the electricity distributor, not the retailer. Generally the distributor is determined by geography, with different distributors having 'won' contracts with the government to supply for a given territory which is strictly defined.

Changing your retailer may change the payment plan you are on and who has secondary access to the information (the distributor and AEMO having primary access), but it won't change what data is collected or by whom.

Re:Shocked

[Macgrrl]

There are some common misunderstandings about smart meters, prior to the remotely read interval meters being rolled out under the banner of smart meters, the term was previously used by retailers to describe meter which would run backwards to record micro-generation back to the grid.

The funny bit is that many of the early remotely read interval meters didn't support energy import (supply back to the grid), and will either need to be replaced later, or may be upgradeable via a remote firmware upgrade to support it.

Lovely

[tqft]

Data security is such a good thing. Good thing the hackers didn't get it.

And with the data retention proposals of course no isp is going to be tempted to defray the cost with either on-site or outsourced datamining. And all storage is onsite and under their control.

From the FTA
"An Origin spokesman said the portal was fully compliant with Australian privacy legislation. He said the additional information requested about each household ''adds to the richness of the Origin Smart experience''.

Customer information can only be accessed by staff involved in billing. He said the electricity retailer only shared information with third parties when they had a ''legitimate business need to do so in order to meet our service obligations to our customers''."

"with third parties" the easiest way for the NSA to get all the data in the world would be to sell cheap datamining services as the Narly Stats Advisers.

And government and business wonder why people don't trust them.

Re:Lovely

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't understand why the data needs to be sent to another country, that in itself is mis-use of private information. There are capable companies in the country to perform these tasks, or they could have built one themselves. Its not rocket science.

Re:Lovely

[HeadlessNotAHorseman]

It might actually be illegal. In a nutshell, the Privacy Act requires that all personal information must be kept appropriately secure. If a company sends personal information to a third party, it requires the company to ensure that they keep the information secure too (e.g. by having a clause in the contract requiring them to meet the requirements of the Privacy Act). It is not possible to provide personal information to a USA company and still meet the requirements of the Privacy Act, because the USA's Patriot Act allows the US government to gain access to that information (without even informing the information owner).

Re:Lovely

[strack]

they dont care that people dont trust them.

Re:Lovely

[tqft]

true, they will just get laws passed if us pesky citizens get in the way of profit

Re:Lovely

[tqft]

cost? someone overseas offering to it cheaper

Re:Lovely

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the same Origin that last month sent out a heap of 'Overdue' bill notices, announcing that the user was also going to be charged a $12 late fee, then waited 2 weeks then sent an 'apology' letter saying sorry for making you pay early, but we hadn't sent the bills out yet, so we wont charge the late fee, BUT WE WILL KEEP YOUR MONEY, AND OFFER NO REIMBURSMENT AS A PENALTY FOR US, EVEN THOUGH WE OFFER TO PENALISE YOU AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY!!!

Re:Lovely

[tqft]

I had to hassle Origin a few times to get them to actually send me a bill. Billing systems are the pits.

Re:Lovely

[subreality]

adds to the richness of the Origin Smart experience

... We are talking about a utility company, right? I expect this kind of puffery for consumer products and services, but this is absurd.

Re:Lovely

[tqft]

from the ads, you would every time you changed provider a fairy would be born and a unicorn saved.

Re:Lovely

[Anonymous Coward]

They tried charging me for the gas of a property i hadn't lived at for 5 years.

Re:Lovely

[Anonymous Coward]

It's kind of weird in Australia. You have the people that generate the power, the people that run and maintain the network, and providers who buy power from the generator people and use the network peoples power lines to sell it to the homes (origin is one them, probably the worst).

Re:Lovely

[TapeCutter]

The Victorian electricity market is broken into wholesale and retail electricity companies, 2 out of 3 salesmen who knock on my door want me to swap retail providers. Competition is so fierce (and generally fucking annoying) that the state government muttered something about outlawing door to door electricity salesmen earlier this year. Adding the smart meters allows home owners to sell power they generate to "the network".

Information not the problem

[girlintraining]

*grabs some popcorn* I'm sure a lot of people will immediately jump all over this company for sharing the data, even collecting it, and long rants about the usefulness, ethicality, or lawfulness, of said activity. None of that really matters terribly much though. Computers record information, and computers are becoming a part of everything that requires electricity. There's microprocessors now in toasters. The question isn't whether or not information can or should be collected, but how it's used.

Knowledge of how it could be used or abused isn't sufficient to cause social change, and the life of the law has never been wisdom, but experience. In other words, the only way we learn not to do something as a society is by running headlong into the problem. It's like climate change. The science is not in dispute; But until large sections of the Earth are desert and millions are dying every day from starvation, hunger, pestilence, etc., nothing will ever be done about it. That's how society works (or doesn't).

The belief that an enhanced understanding of a problem will stir people to action is one of mankind's oldest delusions. We only learn one way: By fucking it up.

Re:Information not the problem

[0123456]

The question isn't whether or not information can or should be collected, but how it's used.

Information that isn't collected can't be abused.

Re:Information not the problem

[TubeSteak]

An Origin spokesman said the portal was fully compliant with Australian privacy legislation. He said the additional information requested about each household ''adds to the richness of the Origin Smart experience''.

Legislation that isn't specific essentially ensures that data will be misused.
Then again, to the people who passed the law, that was probably a feature, not a bug.

Re:Information not the problem

[girlintraining]

Information that isn't collected can't be abused.

There is an entire field of mathematics dedicating to filling in the blank when that happens. Sometimes the absence of information says more than its presence... ask any police officer. And as for it not being collected -- remember the TSA body screener fiasco? Anything with a microprocessor, a sensor, and programmable logic can be modified to collect information, and most probably without your knowledge, even if it says it doesn't on the tin. And the other thing, which many slashdot readers can attest to, is debugging. Almost every device has some diagnostic mode, factory mode, engineering mode, etc., which allows a 3rd party to examine its inputs and outputs for the purposes of quality assurance. Even Google got screwed on this one recently with their capturing of wifi packets... They had no business reason to do it, few people knew about it, the data was (to the best of anyone's knowledge) not used, but there it was, sitting on hundreds of harddrives, getting backed up, and the word is it was all because of one engineer who forgot to disable logging.

It's better to just assume everything is being logged and recorded; And then pass laws limiting its use -- that way, it'll never become widespread or systematic. I don't see any way of reasonably preventing information collection -- it's intrinsic to the function of most information systems.

I do see ways of limiting abuse...

Re:Information not the problem

[bbelt16ag]

good luck getting that passed. it will be swiss cheese you can use for a porch screen!. They got every one of those congress persons bought and sold. As soon as they say ' I want to offer you a job when you get out of office...' they got em hook line and sinker.

Re:Information not the problem

[lurker1997]

I'm unusual enough that whatever I'm doing is probably an outlier in terms of marketin usefullness, whether it's power consumption, spending habits, location, etc. It pisses me off that data is being collected about me whatever I do, but I would rather focus my energy fighting other battles.I agree with you that its best to just assume everything that can be monitored/logged is and act accordingly.

If enough people are bothered by this, I wonder if it is ecomomic for someone to make a load balancing system that draws a constant current from the mains (at zero power factor), and stores energy in a battery system which powers the house. There could be different privacy options; for example random power draw or a consertvatively high constant power which would have to be blown off if the batteries get full charged. Or, in municipalities like mine that have time of use pricing, all the energy could be stored at night.

This would certainly be expensive and wasteful but might be a product for private people

Re:Information not the problem

[flaming error]

So, legislation can't prevent logging, tracking, and retention, but it can prevent mining, hacking, and leaking?

Re:Information not the problem

[DarwinSurvivor]

...or stolen. The more parties have possession of sensitive data, the higher the chance it will be "lost" or stolen by those that WOULD use it against you.

Re:Information not the problem

[Anonymous Coward]

especially burglars, they love this type of information

Re:Information not the problem

[EdIII]

We only learn one way: By fucking it up.

Uh huh. That's not fucking true. Plenty of men have been fucking up for years trying to keep women happy and still have not learned how yet....

Perhaps you meant the opportunity is there to learn, but we often fuck that up too.

Re:Information not the problem

[EdIII]

It's better to just assume everything is being logged and recorded; And then pass laws limiting its use -- that way, it'll never become widespread or systematic.

Sounds fine in theory, but there will always be extremely powerful entities that will not limit their use. Like governments for instance.
Legislation after the fact does not mitigate the risk, particularly from the most dangerous entities.

What about less dangerous entities, but nonetheless, very disruptive with their actions like corporations? What if a company could get their hands on that data and deny access to services and products? Like insurance carriers? Sure the law may say no, but how would you know it was actually part of the decision? It would require a whistle blower to really bring down a company, and usually there are tens of thousands, if not millions of people impacted along the way.

No, I really think there needs to be legislation against the logging of data. Strong legislation. Possession needs to be a crime, not use.

Re:Information not the problem

[tqk]

Plenty of men have been fucking up for years trying to keep women happy and still have not learned how yet....

Hey princess, the same can be said about women in the opposite direction. We're not the ones who're still wearing warpaint.

Re:Information not the problem

[Macgrrl]

I'm unusual enough that whatever I'm doing is probably an outlier in terms of marketin usefullness, whether it's power consumption, spending habits, location, etc.

That's OK, Homeland Security has flagged you as a terrorist and are coming around to investigate your buying habits more closely citizen.

Re:Information not the problem

[lurker1997]

I'm not american so there!

surprise!?

[fish waffle]

...Customers can provide information about the size of their home, whether they rent or own, the number of adults and children in their family, if anyone stays in during the day and what appliances they own....

If you don't want information to get out, don't give it out.

Re:surprise!?

[DarwinSurvivor]

Which is fine for the above information, but in many places we have no choice but to use smart meters.

Re:surprise!?

[0123456]

Which is fine for the above information, but in many places we have no choice but to use smart meters.

Of course you do. Buy a generator.

You're going to need one pretty soon when they start ramping down the amount of electricity you're 'allowed' to use.

Re:surprise!?

[Chaonici]

"You're going to need one pretty soon when they start ramping down the amount of electricity you're 'allowed' to use."

Will that be before or after the lizard men activate the mind control chips that we all got with our flu shots?

Or do you actually have electricity rationing in Australia?

Re:surprise!?

[Anonymous Coward]

And what, pray tell, would these generators run on? Something more apt to rationing in the near future perhaps?

Re:surprise!?

[Macgrrl]

Or do you actually have electricity rationing in Australia?

Answering this seriously, much of the smart networks design - of which smart meters is only a very small component of - is about load balancing the systems to supply energy more efficiently without needing to build excess generation capability. Most of the Victorian electricity generation market is scaled around a handful of hot days every summer (the day of the Black Saturday bushfire it was approximately 48C in Melbourne). In hot weather people crank up the air conditioners, fans, etc... and consume significantly more electricity than during normal peaks.

Historically, in order to stop the system from overloading, there have been rolling controlled blackouts to stop the switching networks from cutting out. This is hugely inconvenient for everyone - especially people on home based life support systems.

Part of the design spec for the smart meters is the capability to set a residential maximum draw, if you exceed it - you and only you will lose power. It will try to turn on again in 15 minutes, if you are below that max draw (say you turned off the clothes dryer, the X-box, the big screen TV) then the power will stay on, if you are still over your limit it will cut out again. Rinse, repeat. IIRC this capability was targeted to be implemented in a later phase and wasn't in the initial rollout of functions. I believe that there was also the capability for people who were having trouble paying their bills to ask to have it applied to keep their power bills down to a manageable level they agreed with the utility provider while not having them cut off totally.

We Are The Government - It's the Law.

[Anonymous Coward]

Resistance is V/I.

Re:We Are The Government - It's the Law.

[pipedwho]

if you had not been a coward, I could have modded this up.

Resistance was futile.

So how do I...

[Anonymous Coward]

So how do I get myself taken off these lists?

Re:So how do I...

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't, you just need to leave the company. Even then they have already given your details/information over, so a little too late now.

Re:So how do I...

[bbelt16ag]

you'll be born into it and die in it.

Re:So how do I...

[nadaou]

So how do I get myself taken off these lists?

Send an email to support@slashdot.com with the word "UNSUBSCRIBE" somewhere in the body.

Re:So how do I...

[Anonymous Coward]

call them up and tell them what an asshole company they are, write a strongly worded letter to their CEO. Then call up a company that is small, who you know will not be able to invest in things like this.

As the old saying goes

[cvtan]

Follow the money. If someone can make money from this, a reason to justify it will be constructed. Money will be used to stop child sex traffic, improve education, lower tax bills, etc.

You bloody fucking idiots!

[onyxruby]

You took a perfectly good cause and ruined it in the name of profit!!!! You have just fed the tinfoil hat crown and ruined smart meters world wide for years to come.

Let's think about this? Hey spouse, want to get a new smart meter? Hell no, I do that and the government will spy on me, the debt collectors will use it against me, do I look like I was born yesterday?

No one is going to want one of these things attached to their house now knowing how they have actually been used. Why the hell couldn't you leave well enough alone and use it for what it was actually meant for?

Smart meter technology could have been one of the greatest real world technological green technologies we have seen in a long time. Instead some short sighted, can't see the next week because tomorrow is in the way greedy bastards ruined it to sell their customers out to debt collectors!

Words cannot begin to describe how short sided and idiotic these people were. I'm sorry they just can't.

I've spent a fair amount of time in Melbourne, I thought well of the people down there. What the hell happened?

Re:You bloody fucking idiots!

[AHuxley]

You took a perfectly good cause and ruined it in the name of profit!!!
The only perfectly good idea was to sell Australia on ripping out spinning meters and replacing them with expensive networked smart meters vs digital import/export meters.
All with the dream of not having to send so many expensive police cleared workers into suburbia,
As for "technological green technologies"? or "actually meant for?" If people have solar they can do their own electrical audits or get a wireless clamp over their supply and chart their own usage.
Australia has forums packed with users offering ideas, links and devices for green technologies or getting the most from any Feed in tariff/day/night energy plan.
Most people need to run a washing machine, watch their shows, cool down in summer, warm up in winter.
Some expensive, imported software to map usage data over suburbia and sell - feels like 1984 to most people....
ie one person with aquarium heaters and a few tanks might have a larger than average bill for 1 person of that age per unit of time...
Face an extra green 'tax' or police sneak and peek for drug growing?

Re:You bloody fucking idiots!

[Anonymous Coward]

One doesn't go out and get a smart meter, the state installs it.

Re:You bloody fucking idiots!

[pubwvj]

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or serious. I hope sarcastic.

Re:You bloody fucking idiots!

[cvtan]

You will have to have it or they will raise the rates. Your significant other, who doesn't care about privacy ("We're not doing anything wrong...") will demand it.
Next is that little Progressive Insurance dongle that sits on the OBDII port in your car to examine your driving habits.

Re:You bloody fucking idiots!

[Mashiki]

There was nothing "green" about smart meter technology. It was always about ToU billing and how much someone could screw you over at the end of the day.

Re:You bloody fucking idiots!

[Anonymous Coward]

Heh, I would've thought the reputation they have in this corner of the world for breaking down would've been enough by itself.

Re:You bloody fucking idiots!

[Tastecicles]

*s/state/private contractor on behalf of one or more utility companies.

**+and there's no recourse to get it removed and a standard meter put in because it's deemed "progress". And anything which "progresses" energy delivery and monitoring can be nothing else but a good thing. Right?

Right??

Re:You bloody fucking idiots!

[clarkkent09]

Ah, so you belong to the school of thought that holds that if only human nature wasn't in the way, and if everybody just did what you want them to do, the world would be a wonderful place. Well, I guess we are only up to hundred billion examples that show that people act based on incentives, so obviously you need some more evidence before you actually start believing it. The only way to get people to not do something that can be profitable to them, but harmful to the society is to make it not possible for them to do so. They are not idiotic, short sighted, greedy bastards, they are just humans and if this particular company didn't do it, another one would.

Re:You bloody fucking idiots!

[GoodNewsJimDotCom]

In a utopian world, smart meters could get you motivation to use electricity on non peak hours. In our corporate screw you over the best they can legally world, smart meters is just an excuse to jack up rates and confuse consumers. Right now we just have cost per kilowatt hour, and you can simply choose your electric company based on the cheapest offer. Throw in the smart meters, and the most expensive company could have both the lowest rates for peak and offpeak: All they need is a sneaky curve where you're nearly peak all day long.

Re:You bloody fucking idiots!

[Anonymous Coward]

This country and most of the western world to be honest have surrendered their ability to look after themslves to the "Authorities".

Arguments being waged on an incredibly wide front across a mind boggling number of topics and issues based on "Authority" are frightening.

We've just had some "Nationalists" confront some "Anti-Cartoon" and D-Grade film makers here in Melbourne. This hasn't happened since the 1930's.

Look up Nationailists of the 1920 & 30's, and analise how they got to where they did. You might learn something.

The western world and it's population is reaping what they sow.

Thats what happened and continues to happen!

It's an amazing time. Not many generations get to watch a civilisation and population decline before their very eyes.

Re:You bloody fucking idiots!

[mjwx]

Smart meter technology could have been one of the greatest real world technological green technologies we have seen in a long time. Instead some short sighted, can't see the next week because tomorrow is in the way greedy bastards ruined it to sell their customers out to debt collectors!

I dont know much about the Victorian smart metres because I live in Soviet Western Australia where the Government controls power company but I would like a device that would give me a log of my power usage by circuit. When my power bill comes in a bit higher than the previous bill I'd like to know where the extra power is going. I can walk around with a Kill-A-Watt but that will only get the stuff plugged into a GPO and not stuff on it's own circuit like the oven, Aircon, lights (most lights use feck all power, but some outdoor Halogen lights use it like it's going out of fashion).

However I'd never trust a private energy provider with the same data.

where is this info?

[bzipitidoo]

Screw the privacy concerns, I want to know how I'm doing. How much energy are those blokes using per unit of area and per home? What percentage of their energy goes towards climate control?

For myself, we are in a 2200 sq ft house in north Texas with gas furnace and water tank. House was built in 1977. Per year, we use between 6500 and 7000 kWh, and about 60 MCF of gas. About 50% of that is for heating and cooling.

Re:where is this info?

[wonkey_monkey]

Don't be daft, you can't have the information. Data protection and all that.

Re:where is this info?

[DaveJ2001]

I am in North Texas as well. Access to smart meter data is available at http://www.smartmetertexas.com/. It provides monthly, daily and incremental reports (every 15 minutes IIRC), and I've found it to be quite useful in tracking which devices use more energy.

Re:where is this info?

[Anonymous Coward]

Per year, we use between 6500 and 7000 kWh

7000 kWh / yr = 800 W

Re:where is this info?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nicely put. It works a lot like "medical privacy" laws in the US. They don't do squat about making your medical data private from anybody that you actually want to keep it private from (your employer, insurance company, the government, drug companies wanting to market at you, etc.), but they do an absolutely TREMENDOUS job of making sure that you can't get at your own information, can't designate somebody else to be allowed to do so, etc.

Re:where is this info?

[Anonymous Coward]

JESUS CHRIST! I have a 2000 square foot home with no insulation and single-pane windows (with a 10-foot single-pane sliding glass door) in California where summer temps are regularly 110. I use an old 5-ton central air unit to cool my house to 73 and my electricity usage between 8/1/2011 and 8/1/2012 was 3583 kWh.

What the hell are you guys doing?

Re:where is this info?

[tibit]

Your meter is broken or you're lying through your teeth. Seriously.

This is what passes for a summary now?

[wonkey_monkey]

All we get is the first sentence of an article copy-and-pasted as a summary now? Does the submitter think this is a good thing or a bad thing? Why should we care about this? What are the implications?

Can't we just turn the whole thing over to a bot and be done with it?

Re:This is what passes for a summary now?

[causality]

All we get is the first sentence of an article copy-and-pasted as a summary now? Does the submitter think this is a good thing or a bad thing? Why should we care about this? What are the implications?

Can't we just turn the whole thing over to a bot and be done with it?

No, we can't. At this time, with the current state-of-the-art in software development, it's just too damned difficult and expensive to cause a bot to randomly produce so many spelling and grammatical errors.

Spelling errors alone would be easy, but not grammatical errors such as using a correctly spelled word in the wrong way or understanding the importance of context. We cannot easily produce this kind of AI.

Re:This is what passes for a summary now?

[Anonymous Coward]

All we get is the first sentence of an article copy-and-pasted as a summary now?

No only is it copied, but it's credited as the submitters writing, which it clearly isn't. This has been going on for years and sadly it's starting to become the norm.

Panopticon; Coming to a household near you

[Penurious Penguin]

I think for anyone paying attention to the subject of privacy, it is pretty apparent that tyrannical voyeurism is a State Vice -- behind which are packs of ravenous fiends that will stop at nothing short of pharisaic omniscience. Long before one method of 'evasion' (self defense) becomes popular among the masses, these fiends are devising new countermeasures to foil them. Already, they want to spy on us through household devices. It seems a time is coming when options are scarce and opting out will be difficult or impossible. And all they seemingly need to do to pacify us is whisper in a soothing tone words like "transparency"". Yes, transparency, a simplex protocol for the masses.

Re:Panopticon; Coming to a household near you

[causality]

I think for anyone paying attention to the subject of privacy, it is pretty apparent that tyrannical voyeurism is a State Vice -- behind which are packs of ravenous fiends that will stop at nothing short of pharisaic omniscience. Long before one method of 'evasion' (self defense) becomes popular among the masses, these fiends are devising new countermeasures to foil them. Already, they want to spy on us through household devices. It seems a time is coming when options are scarce and opting out will be difficult or impossible. And all they seemingly need to do to pacify us is whisper in a soothing tone words like "transparency"". Yes, transparency, a simplex protocol for the masses.

The scary part is, the Panopticon was intended to be a prison.

In the near future, prison won't be place you send people to. It will be a place you extend to them. Naturally you will be guilty until proven innocent, and since you cannot prove a negative, well, that narrows it down. After all, you might be up to no good.

one week granularity 1 month delay

[Anonymous Coward]

I would have no problem with my electricity usage being posted to anyone with the following conditions:
total power for a week is smallest granularity. 1 month delay.

If the company started posting my instantaneous usage I'd get upset

Re:one week granularity 1 month delay

[Macgrrl]

The Victorian Smart Meters collect data on 30 minute intervals (uploaded daily around midnight to the distributor).

The benefit, if any, to a debt collector, is to project usage patterns to see when it's most likely someone will be home - working on the assumption that consumption increases when the property is occupied.

Fuck your privacy!

[Vinegar Joe]

This is about conserving energy and Saving The Planet!

Re:Fuck your privacy!

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh sure, the jolly green giant of peace, love and market research. It's not that this tender green bastard refuses to buy back energy produced by solar, etc., it's simply that he's a little confused, and would if knew better. He means well though, and swears the planet can be saved if you obey. If you don't, he'll kick your ass though, because he's mean, he's green, and he needs information. It's just that the peer-pressure is really heavy, and his friends in high places insist that he care for the planet. He wouldn't want to disappoint his overlords, and his overlords are even bigger than he, and they want him to care because they don't have the capacity.

Re:Fuck your privacy!

[Anonymous Coward]

Meanwhile in Texas...

Texans Using Guns to Resist Smart Meter Installations

I think I heard guns were illegal in Australia. Too bad. Not that I'm really a proponent of guns I'm more of a hippy treehugger sort but just look what happens when you're not armed.... Government and industry tries to walk all over you.

I think the best solution is to dismantle all central authorities for everything and let little localized communities run themselves. Then they can decide what equipment works best in their area and what info to retain/share/etc. Central governance and management is always bad news as they're too far removed to care or understand what any local center wants/needs.

Of course all that is excuses and pretense. The end game is here. You are a resource, a battery or slave of sorts to be sucked dry and used up for some elite's whim. You're not allowed to organize or take action to better yourself or your own life. You are the terrorists: like this informational video explains in more details...

You are a Terrorist (Du bist Terrorist) German, English Subtitles on YouTube

Politely say no to them. Peaceful polite resistance. Anything after that whether civil disobedience or more radical stances is on you. Remember Ghandi effected a great deal of change with non-violent methods...

Re:Fuck your privacy!

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't tell if you are joking or trolling.

Re:Fuck your privacy!

[Tastecicles]

Wasn't Gandhi shot?

Great. Look where pacifism got him.

And John Lennon. Jean Jaurès. To name a couple more.

I'm sure there's a very long list somewhere.

Re:Fuck your privacy!

[Dr Damage I]

Not to worry, they're just a bunch of rednecks from flyover country who are relying on reasons "most of which have no real factual basis". Pay no attention[/sarcasm]

Re:Fuck your privacy!

[Anonymous Coward]

Jesus, "Turn the other cheek" = crucified

Re:Fuck your privacy!

[Tastecicles]

snap. I forgot about him.

Re:Fuck your privacy!

[Macgrrl]

Guns are largely controlled in Australia. There were guns, knives, dogs and in one case snakes wielded in anger at installers during the rollout.

What happens if they get hacked?

[Hentes]

I imagine some burglars could find this data quite useful, knowing which houses are empty.

Re:What happens if they get hacked?

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, they can already check this by going to the meter box and checking the spin on the current types of meters. Beyond that, what the burglers might want is digital signatures of appliances, that is if all they care about is appliances. Beyond that, if they are very technical they could categorise the occupants (i.e having bose sound system = loaded = higher chance of other moola in the house). But long and the short, they already have access to information on whether the house is empty or not based on appliance/electrical usage.

Re:What happens if they get hacked?

[theArtificial]

Uh, they can already check this by going to the meter box and checking the spin on the current types of meters.

One situation requires them to trespass to get the information.

Re:What happens if they get hacked?

[Anonymous Coward]

They're already planning to trespass to rob the place.

Re:What happens if they get hacked?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, that would be breaking and entering, different concept.

What The Article Doesn't Say...

[Anonymous Coward]

...is whether the data is anonymized prior to 3rd party release. We have fairly strict privacy laws and I expect this is what happens. I just don't expect a noob reporter to understand that point, or an experienced one to put that in a story he wants to get a snappy headline from.

Re:What The Article Doesn't Say...

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you are making fairly big assumptions which you cannot confirm or deny, unless you work for that company ?

Re:What The Article Doesn't Say...

[AHuxley]

Why sell one data set when you can rent dynamic sets at different rates :)
A false color map thats totally anonymized over an ever expanding suburbia.
If you pay more you get more layers.
Zoom in and every little colored box lines up with a property :)
Want near real time data? Solar users? Top energy users? People who use way too little power?

1984...

[BoRegardless]

is here!

Re:1984...

[thegarbz]

Did you just wake up from hibernation? 1984 has been here for many years now. We welcomed it with open arms.

Privacy Commissioner is a wet lettuce leaf

[CuteSteveJobs]

People think they have Privacy Laws and the Privacy Commissioner protecting them. They don't. Like much the government does to reassure the public, they are deliberately weak and there for just for PR value. If you ever try and use them you will find they have all the whipping power of a wet lettuce leaf: The worst thing the Commissioner can do is write a letter to a company breaching your privacy saying "Please don't do that." There is no fine. http://www.theage.com.au/technology/technology-news/youre-being-more-closely-watched-20120916-260ko.html

Add to that Nicola Roxon's plans to snoop on Australians Internet Usage. Do you really trust public servants to keep your private that information secret? The only privacy they care about is hiding their mistakes from public. http://www.canberratimes.com.au/national/police-fight-to-keep-corby-secrets-20120922-26dni.html

As for your privacy, they don' think you should have any: http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/380194/20120904/ag-nicola-roxon-bats-data-retention-laws.htm

No choice

[HeadlessNotAHorseman]

You have no choice; they install the smart meter whether you will or nill it.

Opted out of PG&E online bills

[Animats]

I had to opt out of Pacific Gas and Electric's online billing system and go back to paper bills when they changed their EULA to allow more "disclosure". If I just buy power from them, they're subject to regulatory rules, enforced by the California Public Utilities Commission. But they wanted me to sign up for an "online account", which isn't regulated. If you don't sign up, they're not allowed to redistribute your "smart meter" info. If you sign up, you've consented to distribution to "affiliates".

I strongly recommend opting out to PG&E customers (California, Nevada) who are concerned about privacy issues.

Re:Opted out of PG&E online bills

[Anonymous Coward]

Or...simply get off the power distribution. How?, you ask. There are many ways. If you live near a large body of water, live on a boat in a marina. Your slip and live-aboard fees cover the utilities. If you are in a more rural area, go solar and wind. Most mobile home parks distribute the utilities through out the facility.
You can get excellent internet access via 4G in most populated areas for as little as $25 US a month. Use your brain, get rid of the corporate blood suckers.

Re:Opted out of PG&E online bills

[AHuxley]

Australia has sold off much of its power grid and related hardware. The .coms demand a 10% jump in profit per year.
Then you add in a nice bit of fine print, the more they spend on work in the last years the more they can charge the next.
So you have lots of work fitting out suburbia with quality kit, just to keep the 'cost' numbers way way up.
Few new coal, gas units, just gold plated busy work.
At a point many cheap solar panels from China, one inverter with a quality computer controller from Japan and deep a few deep cycle batteries will become per watt cheaper with pay off/replacement than staying on the grid.

smart meters can make wind, solar use easier

[Anonymous Coward]

True, smart meters themselves are not a green technology. Fossil fuels and uranium can be burned at any moment. Solar and wind are available at only certain times. Some electricity use has to occur at certain times, such as watching a football game on television. Other electricity use can be delayed or avoided. I might decide to charge my GM Volt tonight. The actual charging can occur at 9 PM, 11 PM, or 3 AM, as long as it happens before 8 AM. If there is no wind that night, I might avoid charging, and use expensive gasoline instead. With smart meters, the price during the day, or between days, can vary, so responsive customers can get variable tasks done using renewable power, instead of fossil fuels.

It's not being shared

[Anonymous Coward]

It's being sold.

But, there is a remedy. If you don't like it, you can disconnect your electric service. Having electric service is a voluntary luxury. If you don't like the terms attached to having it, you don't have to have it.

They already know this shit

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, the already know when and what is used by which area.

Its quite easy for the power companies to place smart meters on each final leg distribution box/building.

Sure its not as accurate as knowing each house, but they can know each district or suburb down to the second, not 30 minute interval.

The whole reason for SM is control, just like you being in a big prison, and lights out mean lights out.
The govt can , like a Sims player, then turn power off to whom ever they dont like or isnt paying. But also detailed usage can infer activities, like how many people live there, what times they are up/sleep, if they are growing drugs, etc... FFWD to the future 10 years, every consumer whitegood valued >$200 might have a $3 chip SOC that can communicate via custom wifi/lan to the SM, so that power usage could be widely throttled.

Problem is these will be under full control. Where in fact it should be a one way only suggestion to use less power. ie, the SM should broadcast a 'please use less, or dont bother. Kind of like telling your laptop to use full power, balanced mode, or super low power mode. More a suggestive approach, rather than full direct control defined by their servers. Too many fuck ups can happen with full control, imagine if its hacked in.

But no laws or regulations exist for utilities to be controlled in how they decide on what they are allowed to do in regard to remotely controlling home users devices. Expect restrictions. Full control will not happen, before some major mistake turns of a whole hospital and kills 100s.

But, instead they will have full IO control, like all your devices having root access to the govt. Power to turn everything off, or on. If devices have high speed links, who knows, microphones on gaming console activated, or on your Smart TV equiped wiht built in camera/mic could be activated to record your at home secretly (Show us the source code LG, else we cant trust you) , built in Wifi, but hey, in 10 years, every TV might have built in LTE. So if activated could upload the video/voice data to the power vendor or police server, at zero cost to the LTE provider since im sure they would have a 'emergency back channel' that wont required SIM or active account.

Protect your future, invest in learning how to build freq jammers, in the 868/915mhz.

And ironically, the cost of all this new tech would have been better spent giving every household free solar panels, which would have reduced loads for grids by more than this scheme.

As Jobs says, one more thing, if any one chooses Windows Servers, stay away, and have absolute zero trust in them.

Re:They already know this shit

[Dr Max]

Oh dear god, if only i didn't have a life, then i might sit here and explain everything that is wrong about your post to you.

Re:They already know this shit

[Macgrrl]

The vast majority of appliances currently installed do not have the ability to be queried or remotely controlled via the power grind. Most houses are not wired to have remote control at an outlet level.

The Smart Meter project referred to in TFA has the capability to remotely activate or deactivate power at a meter by meter level (generally a single residence or small business), or to consumption limit you at a per meter level (if you exceed 'x' kwh consumtpion, shut off, try again in a few minutes), but to the best of my knowledge that hasn't been approved for use as yet.

Currently the way the distributors manage excess consumption is at a grid level where they turn off entire substations, such as they did several summers back where we had a run off excessively hot days and too many people were using their ACs to a level which was going to overload the grid.. What you may not be aware of is the large number of people in residential areas on some form of assisted life support that relies on electricity. In the even to of a blackout, many of these people need to be transferred to hospitals or other backup locations. The smart meter solution allows them to be left on when other houses are switched off in the event of load balancing blackouts.

I left Citibank for the same reason

[Anonymous Coward]

Citibank UK changed their EULA to share your banking data with anyone for any reason. This was shortly after SWIFT was caught handing all their data over to the US. To avoid any liability, some banks added a clause to their usage terms that let them basically do anything with your data.

So I closed my Citibank account and wrote to them telling them why I was closing it.

How much money I have and how I spent that money should be private. I still think the US had something on Barosso that caused him to gleefully hand all that data over to the US.

Duh

[Anonymous Coward]

Is anyone surprised by this? In the US, vote for Gary Johnson. Live Free.

...and theives!

[Anonymous Coward]

"In Victoria (Australia), detailed information about electricity customers' power usage, which gives insights into when a house is occupied, is being shared with third parties including mail houses, debt collectors, data processing analysts and government agencies." ...and thieves!

How long before people need to use home automation to imitate the presence of people in their homes?

I didn't say anything....

[Decker-Mage]

at the time when the Whitehouse was pushing for the utilities to have an open portal where people could go and read their smart meter's data for exactly this reason. Any reasonably astute burgler, or home invasion robber, would be an idiot not to try to get access to this information. True, there are a lot of stupid criminals out there, but there are stupid criminals with smart friends.

GSM900 never widely adopted?

[ThreeDayMonk]

FWIW, GSM900 was never widely adopted in the UK, distributors instead preferring GSM1800. The 934 crowd never got their bandwidth back to this day.

That's not right, surely? The first UK GSM licences (Vodafone and Cellnet) were 900, followed some time later by one2one and Orange on 1800. (At university, I could always tell the people on one2one or Orange. They had loads of free minutes, but the networks were sparse and 1800 was more readily attenuated by masonry, so they had to stand outside in January to make phone calls.)

The first GSM phones in the UK were 900-only, too: if you were on an 1800 network, you needed to be sure to buy a dual-band phone.

Vodafone and Cellnet (or were they O2 by then? I forget) obtained 1800 licences quite a long time later, and added 1800 base stations too - and made a point of telling their customers that they'd get better service if they had dual-band handsets.

900 is still in use - and operators are allowed to use both 900 and 1800 for UMTS now [PDF]. How widely, though, I don't know.

Re:GSM900 never widely adopted?

[Tastecicles]

GSM900 was introduced in 1991, GSM1800 in September 1993 - between those dates the only way to get on the networks was to buy in to stupidly expensive contracts (hell, for that matter there was no such thing as pay-as-you-go back then - that didn't happen until 1996). Otherwise you were stuck on (marginally cheaper) analogue.

BT Cellnet (founded as Cellnet Securicor in 1985) rebranded itself as O2 in 2002, and was acquired by Telefonica Europe in 2005.

No problem, mate...

[Anonymous Coward]

No need to roll over when we're already upside down.

Florida

[Anonymous Coward]

All electric. No gas.
3000 sq ft. 23,500Kwh annually.
2100 sq ft. 18,500Kwh annually.

Just Another Reason

[rally2xs]

I've been getting woo-letters from the power company for several years now, wanting me to consent to one of these meters. Now, I find that there's yet another reason not to get them, privacy.

OK, in addition to the future threat of the gov't deciding that anything less than 82 degrees interior temperature isn't green enough for them, and having the meter turn off my electricity to prevent me from lowering the air conditioner below 82 degrees, or raising the heat above 60 degrees, or having my water heater set for more than 98.6 degrees, I get to also distribute the fact that I charge my GM Volt just as soon as I get it home, on the 240 volt charger, so as to have it ready for another trip as soon as possible.

Such a scenario would cost me about $12K for a new emergency generator - 4 cylinders, 50 Kw rating, and I'd be "testing" it every time I was home and wanted the temp below 82 degrees in the summer, or above 60 degrees in the winter, or wanted hot water sufficiently hot enough to get the stains off my shirts when I throw 'em in the washer. That would be mega-expensive. I think I'll just continue to not have the smart meter as long as I can get away with it.

unocupied home

[volmtech]

In my home we have five adults and six vehicles. Even if everyone leaves in a separate car there is still one in the yard and no it not up on blocks. That and four very vocal dogs locked in the house.

The moral ...

[golodh]

... don't let any Australians have your data. You don't know where it'll go.

Broken smartmeter...

[Anonymous Coward]

The smart meter at my house just seems to keep suffering from unknown magnetic damage. They, PG&E have had to replace 5 of them in the last year. I guess I should stop placing the neodymium magnets on the outside of it. It is rather fun to watch the data go crazy on their web site and then the meter itself fail and flash red. Too bad the lazy bastards have to get out of their car now and read the meter again....

Re:...and thieves!

[overmod]

Have been doing that since the '60s (albeit in redumentary form) with lamp timers. The approach is still good, still recommended, and has the obvious advantage of dissuading thieves who use Mk.I eyeball instead of just Web inquiry.

The more obvious 'next question' involves spoofing the demand actually reported by the smart meter, or obfuscating the nature of its data. Those sufficiently Christian and green at the same time can be billed for x number of energy units without actually wasting them...

This is why

[aglider]

We love New Zeland.

Re:This is why

[PuZZleDucK]

Please elaborate? :)

Re:This is why

[aglider]

Please elaborate? :)

I cannot: I'm from there.

Victoria's power market is private.

[mjwx]

Color me surprised. I also expect campaign promises to be kept.

This isn't the fault of the Victorian government, well not directly.

The Victorian power market was privatised some years ago and it's a private corporation, Origin Energy that is sharing the data with third parties even thought the government is pushing for the new metres in every home. In this regard it was Origin who broke the law by sharing the data. Expect some political finger waggling but not too much as the Victorian government isn't due for another election for a few years.

Power and gas prices have also risen a lot over there, which is why I'm glad the Western Australian government didn't privatise power and gas over here and have some control over the price.

So the data leaked out

[thogard]

There are a few interesting facts about this smart meter rollout here in Victoria. First of all they require a patent encumbered implementation that is specified in the law. You can't buy the chips to do that anymore since the new chips have the patent problems removed. A friend who owns a patent on some of the technology hasn't seen any payments and he know of about 20 other patents they are violating.

Power bills are going up but wholesale power generation costs are now about $.025 per kWH. About 1/4 of a bill is the generation, about 1/4 is the distribution and the rest goes to the guys who print the bills and take the money. The typical bill is now about US$.25 to $.40/kwh.

There are rumors that there has been some torrent traffic on the wimax backbone network.

Several houses have burned down after new meters were installed since the old insulation came off.

The new meters cope with bad power factor. That means the very cheap CFLs that don't have power factor correction are billed at a rate of several hundred times what the oldest mechanical meters were recording.

There are many 40+ year old meters that had worn out and when they get replaced, peoples bills go up.

The power companies currently pay about $1 per meter read which happens about every two months. There seems to be a 10% fiction rate on meter readings. The ROI on the meter rollout is indeterminate but could be fractions of centuries.

A typical town will have a few transformers unlike the US system where 8 or fewer houses will be on one transformer. It tends to mean local monitoring of power usage upstream doesn't match the house meter records very well.

I still don't know why they don't put the smart meters on the poles away from houses so the home owner doesn't have any idea they are even there. It decreases the liability and allows the customer to cross check using the old meters.

Spying Money

[Anonymous Coward]

The scope and money involved are covered here
http://bcfreedom.wordpress.com/2012/10/01/smart-meters-energy-harvesting-data-sales-goldmine-spy-machines/

Shocked

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps you are missing the point here?
http://bcfreedom.wordpress.com/2012/10/01/smart-meters-energy-harvesting-data-sales-goldmine-spy-machines/