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Swiss Railway: Apple's Using Its Clock Design Without Permission
An anonymous reader writes "Apple received a lot of criticism during the Apple/Samsung litigation this past Summer as folks deemed it absurd that Apple was able to patent things such as icon design and the overall form factor of a smartphone. Well as it turns out, it appears that Apple has engaged in some copying of its own in the form of the new clock icon design used in iOS 6 on the iPad- a rather ironic turn of events given that Apple railed against Samsung for copying its own iOS icons. Specifically, the clock icon in iOS 6 on the iPad is a blatant copy of a Hans Hilfiker design to which both the trademark and copyright is owned by the Swiss Federal Railways service."
Looks like the UK Railway too is not happy with them.
http://www.metro.co.uk/tech/912750-apple-ios6-maps-debacle-transport-for-london-signposts-alternative
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i have to pay the swiss?
So I can't make a rectangular phone with rounded edges?
maybe the swiss are just afraid of the lawsuit that apple will throw their way after they patent the design?
not that it is especially wrong for this: everyone steal from everyone, and then improves on it. this is how creation works
which tells us how useless and ignorant intellectual property, as a concept, is
you may ask then how does the solitary inventor protect his <strike>invention</strike> incremental improvement, standing on the shoulders of others, from being ripped off by large players?
there are a number of legal ways to do this. but if you think the current system is anything but a joke that protects ONLY those large players, and consists of ridiculous wasteful absurd legal posturing games between large players where only lawyers benefit, you are an idiot. the game currently is: he with the largest legion of lawyers wins. that's it, that's the whole game
it's absurdity, and the system is profoundly broken
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
As a matter of fact that most people missed in the Samsung verdict, you CAN use the rounded rectangle shape. That was one of the few point of victory for Samsung... But don't let me get in the way of your trolling.
Bureaucracy expands to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.-Oscar Wilde
Is that the only aspect of the design you noticed? That it has no numbers? No, Apple is making an exact copy of every single visual element of the clock, minus the logo. That's what's wrong.
That don't hide the fact that in short words Apple argued that
Yes, because Apple is totally absolved from trying that idiotic stunt, just because they didn't get away with it.
I vote based on politicians' actions, unless contrary to my preconceptions. Often wrong, never uncertain. #iamthe99%
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - the most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go against the Swiss when watches are on the line!" Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
If violating a patent is really a form of property theft, then the police (Federal, in this case) should be taking stolen IP reports. And dispatching officers to apprehend the culprits and recover the stolen property.
Just like with stolen cars*, the priority for each case isn't assigned based on the wealth or status of the complainant. A shitbox Honda gets the same attention as a Bentley. Nobody insists on you hiring your own recovery agents and attorneys to get your car back. That's the job of law enforcement.
The down side is that: If our cops get this responsibility, there are going to be the equivalent of dead pedestrians and other collateral damage resulting from the chase.
*I know, not really valid. When they steal your patent, its like your car is still parked where you left it. Someone else is just driving a copy of it around, stupid bumper stickers and all.
Have gnu, will travel.
Here's a Swiss railroad clock in its native habitat, at Cornavin station. There are clocks at regular intervals along platforms, and the second hands are, of course, in sync. It's part of the Swiss Railways branding - their stations tend to have a large, if not excessive, number of those clocks.
It's a famous design. A home-size version is available from the Museum of Modern Art in New York. (It does not, however, sync to an external time source.)
Is that the only aspect of the design you noticed? That it has no numbers? No, Apple is making an exact copy of every single visual element of the clock, minus the logo. That's what's wrong.
Look, seriously, give it up. That's an Apple fanboy you're arguing with. Strawmanning is the LEAST of their problems. You're never going to get through to him. Best to just let him be and watch with amusement as he repeatedly brings up double standards between The Word Of Jobs and the rest of the planet.
Apple today announced that they have been granted a patent for using other peoples' designs. iCopy will be featured in all of their future products.
The system wasn't nearly as bad as it was until the first rulings that "on a computer" was novel. "one click" had been done for thousands of years before it was patented "on a computer". It was previously called "running a tab". Most "on a computer" patents are similarly idiotic. Look and feel patents are a violation of the idea of innovation. Arrangement of a home/start page isn't a technical innovation, and should be denied in all patent applications as a copyright issue (if anything, not saying the copyright claims should be successful, but that it shouldn't be a patent issue at all).
Incremental improvements have been shown to be simultaneous often through history, with multiple places claiming the first airplane, helicopter, recording device or transmitting device of various kinds. If two people can invent the same thing at the same time with no collaboration, what does that say about the uniqueness of the invention/discovery? The current theories on invention are that such things are inevitable, given the demands and present tech. The problems are that the available tech isn't sufficient, or that there is no need to be filled.
Things like the computer and printing press were invented by need and tech. Babbage would have been the undisputed inventor of computers with a 1960's style punch card system, if only the machine-works were sufficient for the tolerances he required, or the electrical tech was sufficiently advanced for him to attempt that route. Since neither was sufficient, he is a theoretical inventor of an adding machine (that would have worked, but didn't at the time). So the "discovery" of computers was left for a later date. And was solved in multiple ways by multiple different people over overlapping periods (mostly over WWII, with the US pioneering electrical-based systems, Germans getting mechanical systems done well, and the English doing whatever they could, based on their allies and captured enemy tech.
Learn to love Alaska
Yes, because Apple is totally absolved from trying that idiotic stunt, just because they didn't get away with it.
If you wish to try and pin absurd and idiotic on a company when it comes to patent litigation, take a number and get in fucking line.
I'm not fanboi, but common sense is lacking in every damn direction in and around patent law.
Go figure the only ones truly enjoying themselves (and getting absurdly rich) are the lawyers...they wouldn't have it any other way.
not that it is especially wrong for this: everyone steal from everyone, and then improves on it. this is how creation works
There is an Academic concept of plagiarism. This is very interesting because it has nothing to do with copying; academics are supposed to copy. Someone who fails to report what their predecessors said is treated with more contempt. Plagiarism, however, is worse. It is taking other people's words and ideas without crediting them. That gives you some idea what is wrong here.
which tells us how useless and ignorant intellectual property, as a concept, is
For "Intellectual property" as a phrase and a grouping you are probably right, but we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are specific kinds of intellectual property, trademarks are one of them, which have real value. Without clear ownership of names it's very difficult for companies to build a reputation. Without reputation there is no difference between a cheap forced labour made rip off job like an iPhone and a serious communication device like an EADS Tetra terminal. If you ended up in with your communication device packing up just because you put it sprayed it with water to stop it melting you would be rightly upset when you found out someone had given you an inferior product by accident.
With the swiss railways, there is serious value here. When you buy a watch endorsed by them it means something. This is not some random quartz knock off job. Proper precision engineering. Think of the famous joke:
In this particular case there are series of design elements which are completely different from a normal clock; Lack of numbers; a bright red circle on the second hand. A very plain white disk. These are things which are original from Swiss railways and that nobody used before them. If you exactly copy these then you are basically trying to make off the reputation of the Swiss railway. This is something which can reasonably be protected; merely by changing from a bright red to a blue triangle you can copy the concept (a clock which emphasises the change of every second) without copying the design.
Now you might ask; "why does the rtfa-troll support Swiss Railways here and not Apple there". Well firstly; I'm not supporting them for a "beeelion dollars" like Apple wants. I'm supporting them for a couple of hundred quid and an apology. Secondly; pick a random Samsung Galaxy S vs iPhone comparison. Have a look at the way that key design elements (the bare metal surround on the side of the phone) are different. Anything which clearly distinguishes one product from another should be enough. The key standard is "designed so as to be easily confused with" not "designed to pay homage to".
It would be a shame if the IP cowboys forced us to throw away all of the things that are valuable in trademarks or secrets just because they abuse patents and copyright.
=~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
Actually, some swiss guy asked the swiss federal railroad if he can use the design for an according app in the AppStore. The swiss federal railroad gave him permission to do so.
Now comes Apple and rips off the design also - so there is a direct competition between the app developer and Apple.
The design is already trademarked by the SBB. Did you not read the article? Oh yeah, this is Slashdot.
by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
Never said they were deserving or even in need of absolution. They tried and failed on that point. The post I was replying to was conflating the two for understandable reasons, but since apple lost that point I suspect that the Swiss will as well. If you want to nail apple for something, use one of the rediculous patents that actually held up in court.
Bureaucracy expands to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.-Oscar Wilde
The design is almost 70 years old. What is wrong is people thinking they can lock up art and culture that long.
Good-bye
Isn't a train a mobile device.
Is there anybody but me who thinks that Apple should have made the "clock" look like a watch instead of a clock?
Watches are what people are using the iPhone clock for anyway...
"We mustn't be caught by surprise by our own advancing technology" -- Aldous Huxley
So it's okay for Apple to label Samsung a copycat for creating icons that look similar to iPhone icons, but when you rip off someone else's design VERBATIM you're not? This company has become so brazen that they'll now plagiarize without any attribution or compensation.
Now that Apple's misconduct has been revealed will Apple do what they wanted done to Samsung and withdraw their products voluntarily from Europe? If they don't they Apple are hypocrites, and that's not cool.
What kind of education has Apple given you?
Steve Jobs is God. Apple is His sacred realm. Once he realized His job was finished, He departed this world, leaving his trusted prophet Tim Cook in charge of spreading His faith to all non-believers, by whatever means necessary.
He did leave us, mere mortals, with the best advice we have ever received:
It is never a fault of the iDevice in question, it is a shortcoming of its user, who does not know how to operate it correctly.
In its original Jobsian dialect: "You're holding it wrong. Sent from my iPhone."
Listen, it's simple, noddy.
Switzerland relies heavily on horology to earn foreign currency.
The Swiss are famous for their timepieces, there are countless fakes, and the Swiss export trade group spends millions hunting down the fakes and confiscating them, punshing those who claim to produce "Swiss made" watches or anything bearing the Swiss flag.
They MUST sue Apple for this blatant attempt to claim affiliation with the Swiss brand, or they lose the right to punish anyone else for doing similar.
They must defend their trademarks and patents, just like anyone else, or they lose the right to those privileges.
Due diligence.
So, yes, of course you have to pay to use their trademarked design, just as you would have to pay through the nose to put an apple with a bite taken out on your computer or mobile phone. It's not at all unreasonable.
But you can make a clock without numbers so long as you don't use exactly the same design as has been trademarked by the SBB/CFF, or anyone else's patented clock face design.
And Apple are fucking stupid for attempting this move. The Swiss, amongst whom I live as an alien resident, will not find this amusing at all.
Just one more collosally arrogant move from Apple - you've got to wonder if someone's deliberately trying to destroy the reputation because of a short place on stocks or some other fiscally oriented attempt to devalue the share price.
It's got EPIC FAIL written on it large and clear, and no clear reason why anyone would deliberately do anything so blatant - with all the press that Apple has generated over the new patent war it launched, it can't have been a simple "oversight"...
This is a clear-cut case of blatant copying of a design, Apple should just admit it, pay up and move on.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Swiss Patent Office workers used to make such better use of their time.
That's exactly what I thought. Even the red second hand - the most recent change - was added in 1953. But then I realized that Mickey Mouse is still in copyright as well. Weird, weird world we live in.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
The comment was intended as a humorous stab at Apple.... here have this clue, I have a few of extras.
Like Microsoft before it, Apple's corporate DNA is built around a culture of cheating.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
Exactly what I thought when I read the article. How long can the copyright on the design of a clock last? If it's 70 years, then it'll still be protected for 11 more years.
But then, it's also a trademark. I don't know swiss law, but trademarks are usually allowed to be renewed forever... If that's the case with this clock, then nobody will be able to ever make a clock that looks like this one without paying the Swiss Railway.
Margarita Manterola.
The clock's visual appearance is almost, if not entirely, uncopyrightable in the US.
The US DOJ takes down knock-off and counterfeit sites all the time, because design is, indeed, protected.
http://torrentfreak.com/feds-seize-130-domain-names-in-mass-crackdown-111125/
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-20023918-93.html
Now if justice really was blind, and there was true equality in front of the law, we should see one of these on the apple web site too, not just companies that sell handbags and jerseys.
Apple did win some of the design claims, including the front face and bezel etc.
http://thenextweb.com/apple/2012/08/24/a-verdict-reached-jury-apple-v-samsung-case/
For the infringement of the D’677 patent, covering the front face of the iPhone, Samsung was found to infringe on all devices aside from the Ace. On the D’087 patent, relating to the back of the iPhone, all Samsung devices aside from the S 4G and Vibrant only were found to infringe.
On the D’305 patent, all Samsung devices were found to infringe. That’s the design of Apple’s iOS icons. The jury also felt that Samsung should have known that the icons were being copied
..
Trade Dress
Samsung could not prove that the ’893 trade dress on the iPhone 3G was not protectable. The iPhone 3G trade dress was found to be diluted by many of Samsung’s products, despite not being registered. Only the Captivate, Charge, Epic 4G, Galaxy S 2, Skyrocket, Infuse and Epic 4G touch were found not to dilute the 3G’s trade dress.
The Galaxy S 4G, one of Samsung’s flagship devices, was found to dilute the trade dress of the iPhone 3G, cranking up the damages numbers quite a bit.
This space for rent.
It's from 1944 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_railway_clock
Different corporations have different personalities. Not like people, but there are still things you expect from apple more than from google, for example. Case in point, apple have a borderline OCD-type control-freak personality. There relation to what they consider theirs is very much akin to the relation between Gollum and the One Ring...
So yeah, you should hit harder on Apple for their dumb lawsuits, because they don't just do it to maximise their profit. They do it out of spite, way beyond what makes any kind of financial sense. Also, they always have been like this: MS won the desktop wars in the 90s because they were more open. Microsoft. Because they needed Open Source to not die, they had to do things that run completely against their DNA. Thus the KHTML-Webkit debacle. Thus their pushing LLVM. They cannot cooperate: they need to control. People, I think, are waking up to that.
Google is not like that. Their crazy obsession is knowing everything about you in a sort of creepy-voyeur kind of way. They see themselves as a benevolent Big Brother. This is a completely different kind of psychopathology. They will give you a gigabit connection to the internet and let you do anything with it. But you have to share your pr0n with them...
If Apple does something, it, by definition, is original. They cannot be copying. If you accuse them of it, you obviously do not know what the word means.
If you are a competitor, you are copying their stuff. If you say you are not because you were using the idea 10 years before Apple did, you still do not correctly understand the word.
Copying means doing anything that may affect their profits - nothing else. You could make a sperical phone with 32 hexagonal buttons, a crescent shaped screen, had a UI based on Lcars and Apple would still sue you if it was faster, cheaper and easier to use and outsold them.
I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
Finds it ridiculous that you can patent a red dot?
They did not patent a red dot. Go look up images of it, they have their own clock face, Apple closely copied it. I don't mean Apple made a red dot, I mean if you take a close look you could come up with a pretty sizable list of what's similar, but not a long list of what's different between the two designs.
I say throw out ALL patents.
I say educate yourself a bit before you go to such an extreme.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
It's a trademark, not a patent.
Back in the US railroad days there was a tycoon named Collis Huntington. He was known to be ruthless and greedy - kind of the same OCD type as Steve Jobs. Huntington is quoted as saying (more or less):
All I want is what's mine. Whatever is not nailed down is mine. If I can pry it loose, it was not nailed down.
When you are dancing with wolves, never limp
Maybe they did think it was public domain due to its age. Maybe the manager who approved the design didn't even know about the swiss clock in question. Mistakes happen. What matters now is not that a copy was made, but what will be done about it. Will Apple change their design to a non-infrigning one, will they attempt to license the design, or will they force a lawsuit by insisting that the clock design isn't protected like Swiss Railway asserts it is? Only under that scenario can you compare Apple in this case to Samsung in Apple v. Samsung.
Please check out what your talking about before blabbering along in blissful ignorance. The Swiss railway clock is not subject to a patent, but to copyright. That makes an hell of a difference. The patent system is completely rotten by now (even of the original aim was good) and should be killed or at least reinvented from the ground up. But if copyright is abolished, then so is copyleft, as it is nothing but a very clever use of copyright. Nobody around here or on the society in general would be helped by that. So let us all respect other people's copyright, even of they are the Swiss Railway Company.
The design is also trademarked. That's a different kettle of fish. How old is the trademarked shape of the Coke bottle?
So until Apple does redesign the clock, a world wide ban on shipments is in order, right?
WWAD?
(What Would Apple Do?)
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
um... but round corners is.... well... stupid and shouldn't be patentable. Where as, this is a rather blatant, and obvious direct copy of a piece of artwork. Whomever owns that clock design should sue the shit out of apple.
The design is also trademarked. That's a different kettle of fish. How old is the trademarked shape of the Coke bottle?
Mod parent up.
Trademarks and trade dress expire only when you fail to defend them. The term is trademark dilution.
Put a beverage in a waisted bottle and watch CocaCola successfully sue your ass, just like they have done before. It doesn't have to be identical.
These things however require active defence. The Swiss Railway must defend their mark. If they allow this then the mark is diluted and they lose ownership.
This is not new. Just because "trade dress" is a new concept here (partly due to the inappropriate (in my view) use of the term "patent", does not make it new.
The same rules required Apple to sue to protect their design.
I wonder if Samsung actually understand the concept of "trade dress" and it's long (European) well defined legal status (in case law as opposed to statute).
I would bet that the CocaCola execs were completely happy with the Samsung Vs Apple verdict.
I guess UPS owes them royalties from the shape of boxes I get.
Wish I had mod points.
I think that's Peyton's other brother.
Considering the slavishness of the copy, I'd say atomic destruction is in order. SBB has to destroy iOS, because it is a stolen product. They should really go thermonuclear on Apple.
If the only "clue" as to illegal immigration was the "look" and accent of the person in question, then that would similarly be insufficient to generate sufficient suspicion (theoretically, according to the law).
What other criteria are supposed to be used by police to stop people and demand documents?
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Except it is a clock in the phone, and if you watch the shadow on the second hand, it's clearly in three dimensions. And it's not copyright, it's trade dress, exactly what Apple sued Samsung for, with the difference being that Samsung's designs weren't nearly as exact a copy as this is.
um... but round corners is.... well... stupid and shouldn't be patentable. Where as, this is a rather blatant, and obvious direct copy of a piece of artwork. Whomever owns that clock design should sue the shit out of apple.
I am not standing up for Apple. I do not like what Apple is doing, but still, we need to be able to differentiate who's the original culprit in this case.
Anyone can try their luck and apply for whatever lame patents based on whatever lame claim that they can come up with
It's the patent office that has absolutely fucked up for awarding lame patents such as that rectangle with rounded corners patent to Apple.
As for the clock design, yes, Apple must be sued for infringing on the copyrights of others.
They should be made to cough up at least 3 times the total revenue they've received that is linked to the clock design they have so blatantly stolen.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Great artists steal. Really bad artists steal while simultaneously suing other artists for stealing.
sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
I and others have pointed this out that this patent was rejected before. If you are going to harp on a single patent in that case, then you should at least be aware of the verdict on that particular patent. It's not like there wasn't sufficient coverage of the details.
I'm not defending Apple, they are pursuing a strategy and will reap whatever comes, and deservedly so. Willful ignorance just irritates me.
Bureaucracy expands to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.-Oscar Wilde
Based on which facts do you assume that AJ All Clocks didn't license the clock design? SBB doesn't have a problem with licensing per se, just with copycats.
PS: And if you ever come to Switzerland you will find out that the railroads are quite efficiently operated there.
My point is that before police can determine if someone lacks any kind of documentation, or speak any language, they have to stop him and demand the ID.
First and foremost:
Unless cops will decide to stop and harass people at random (and they will never dare), they have to decide whom to stop and whom to leave alone.
Since there is no criterion available to them other than perceived race, cops have to either refuse to enforce this law, intentionally harass people who can't possibly be immigrants, or engage in racial profiling. They also would miss "criminals" like myself because they will never have time to stop vaguely-Jewish looking guys.
And this is where it's getting completely insane:
If they will actually stop US citizrn (who may or may not be Hispanic), and he does not have ID, they will have no way to determine that he is American, or that he breaks any law, because Americans are not required to carry documents. If they'll arrest him, he can sue them (but, of course, they are too racist to expect such audacity from a Hispanic person, US citizen or not).
So it's a shit law that can only be enforced in an illogical, and independently from being illogical, racist way.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
He who lives by the silly lawsuit, dies by the silly lawsuit.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
And the really funny thing here is, that these clocks (in use all over Europe by the way, not just in Switzerland) actually *do* run fast.
The seconds dial goes around in (IIRC) 58 seconds, so it stops at the top, where it waits for a central resync.
This has 2 reasons/effects. One is that all clocks are always synced exactly to the minute. The other is that with the dial stopped at the 'minute' mark, the train has 3 seconds to actually leave exactly on time :)
Coz eternity my friend, is a long *ing time.