Will Apple Vs Samsung Verdict Be Overturned?

An anonymous reader writes "While there's much talk of Apple asking for more money from Samsung, there's less talk of the likelihood that the verdict will be overturned completely. Based on voir dire, and the foreman's subsequent statements to the press, it seems he failed to follow the law."

Comments

Re:Android is a patent minefield

[Big Hairy Ian]

If its Android that appears to be breaching patents surely they should be suing the Android/Google collective.

Again

[Murdoch5]

At this point Apple is actually copying Samsung, Samsung is a full generation ahead of where the iPhone in both hardware and software is, so anything that Apple does to the iPhone is just following Samsung, I think Samsung should come back and drive Apple into the ground.

Re:Again

[Enderandrew]

Apple wins in GPU benchmarks, but Apple hasn't innovated with the iPhone in a while. All the key features in both iOS 5 and iOS 6 existed in Android and Windows Mobile first.

When they announced the 4S and 5, you'll note neither have any key innovations.

People want to credit for the full-screen bar phone with multi-touch as this brilliant design that everyone copied. In reality, it is a common sense design that appeared in sci-fi for a reason. Once it became affordable to make it reality, then 3 different companies came up with the same design at the same time (LG, Samsung, Apple). What has Apple done since then literally other than copy heavily from those around them?

And yet they play the victim.

Re:Again

[Anonymous Coward]

So playing with the phone for 25 minutes now counts as "using" the phone?

You are an iphone fan. Like may other iphone fans even if you were handed a cell phone that was better in every way you would still say the iphone was better.

Personally I feel you need to use a phone for a few weeks to begin to get used to it. All cell phones should have a 60 day trial period. You use the phone for 60 days. You can return that phone for any reason no questions asked up to 60 days. That way you can actually use the phone and see how it works for you. I know never going to happen, but it would be good to have that.

Re:Again

[Zemran]

You will have to remember that you are writing to a predominantly American audience and they have no idea of what the Samsung range of phones really look like. Have you seen the piece of shite that gets called a Galaxy II in the US and compared it to the Asian version. It is a completely different phone. Yes, Samsung are streets ahead of Apple but as Apple have managed to keep most of the Samsung products off of the American shelves the people there have no idea of where the real market is these days.

I was looking at tablets yesterday and there is no way that I would consider the Apple. I do prefer its gestures but it is so far behind in features (i.e. USB and microSD) that it is no good for my needs as I need a lot of storage. The phones are the same, I like the Apple but a couple of nice touches and gestures compared to usablilty means that it is not a contender and then when you look at the power of the Samsung you stop even considering the Apple.

I am an Apple fanboy or rather was prior to iOS. I much prefer using OSX with the ability to use the BSD CLI etc.

Re:Again

[Zemran]

22 grams will not worry me but the iPhone 5 is Talk time: Up to 8 hours on 3G and the Galaxy III is up to 11 h 40 min (3G), I can manage that extra 22 grams in my pocket for 50% more use. As for ahead, I think that means the iPhones dual core 1.2 compared to the Samsung quad core 1.4. Content, total freedom instead of restricted, Samsung wins hands down.

Re:Again

[h4rr4r]

It's not. Read the article again, they rigged the tests.

Re:Again

[jedidiah]

> I doubt Apple will ever copy the cheap feeling the Galaxy SIII has when you hold it in your hand. I have been an iPhone user since the 3G

I dumped my 3GS for a Galaxy phone. This "cheap feeling" propaganda is just mindless rhetoric that is the last resort of fanboys that don't have enough clue to criticize something meaningful.

You can't say anything technical so you go for the most superficial and subjective thing you can.

Re:Again

[itsdapead]

At this point Apple is actually copying Samsung, Samsung is a full generation ahead of where the iPhone in both hardware and software is, so anything that Apple does to the iPhone is just following Samsung, I think Samsung should come back and drive Apple into the ground.

The problem with the law is that it takes so long that it's like hitting a puppy with a newspaper 3 days after it made a mess on the carpet. There was a period a few years ago when Samsung's new phones were blatantly copying the look and shape of the iPhone and the look of it's icons (especially when you look at the front-on publicity photos used in adverts). More recent products such as the SIII and Galaxy Note 10 are good examples of how you can make phones and tablets that don't look like an iDevice's long lost twin, and actually increase consumer choice when it comes to form factors. The question is, is that change evolution, or is it a response to Apple's lawsuits?

The other thing is that there seem to be two issues here - Apple vs. Android and Apple vs. the "Android Skinners". While it's pretty obvious that Android did a major U-turn from Blackberry-like to touch-only UI post- the iPhone launch, any accusation of violation depends on some rather broad and possibly obvious software patents (tap/pinch-to-zoom etc.) The first couple of Android phones out of the gate (the G1 and HTC Hero - I'm still using the latter) looked nothing like iPhones, featuring a distinctive 'chin' and trackball design - the first had a swivel-out keyboard FFS - and the UI may have been "inspired" by iPhone but you wouldn't mistake the two.

I think Samsung deserve a slapping for "skinning" their phones to look so much like iPhones (and, even if the jury finding is invalid, there was plenty of evidence from the internal memos, and memos from Google to show that was what they were doing). For one thing, this could be responsible for making Steve Jobs really see red over Android. Also, if you're begging for the verdict to be overturned, remember that the jury also threw out some of Samsung's rather broad claims about mobiles that were possibly even more absurd than Apple's, and decided that they didn't deserve a second round of royalties over cellular patents that they'd already licensed to the chip manufacturer.

Unfortunately, Apple now seems determined to go after Android itself, which seems rather futile and likely to hand the game back to Microsoft. The first consequence of getting into a pissing contest with Google has already hit home with Apple's sorry excuse for a Maps application in iOS 6.

NB: I use both iOS and Android and until the Maps debacle I'd been 50/50 whether my next phone would be an iPhone or an Android. Since Maps on my iPad is now worse than Maps on my geriatric phone I think it will be Android... if I can find one with an SD slot, an up-to-date, unskinned version of the OS and enough CPU/GPU power to be good for a couple of years, and a medium-size screen (I have a tablet - I don't want a second mini-tablet that won't fit in a regular jacket/shirt pocket). That's harder than it seems...

Re:Again

[Enderandrew]

The S3 came out months before the iPhone 5. The S3 has:

Higher resolution screen
Twice as much ram
SD card slot
NFC
Faster CPU
Most powerful battery
Nicer front camera
USB 3.0 support

So Apple can't keep up with Samsung's hardware months later, and Samsung's hardware is cheaper. As for size, the iPhone 5 is slightly thinner and weights just a little less, but the S3 has a much bigger screen and more internal components. And how has Apple innovated with hardware engineering the past few years with the phone?

And I can go on all day about software innovations that blow the iPhone away. I still carry an iPhone 4S for work, and have been an iPhone owner for my personal phone since the 3GS. As someone who literally carries both an S3 and a 4S every day, the S3 is a far superior phone on pretty much every level.

Re:Again

[Nursie]

Yes it has got quad in most markets, the US is the exception. The benchmarks I've seen didn't put the iPhone ahead either.

Re:Again

[Zemran]

The S3 is a quad core as standard, not overclocked or any other dumb comment. The only market that it is not a quad care is the US because the people there cannot cope with real phones yet. Stop reading the US propaganda and look at the real world. The iPhone is slow. The S3 does so much more and has applications that are not even on the iPhone. Just because you live in a backwater does not mean that rest of us are still using the old tech that you have to put up with.

Re:Again

[Enderandrew]

That the processor can barely drive

Have you used the phone? Even with tons of apps installed and running, it is snappy and fast. The EU and NA versions of the S3 have different processors. The EU is actually a quad core processor, and the NA version is a dual core that is compatible with LTE. The clock speed is higher (1.5 GHz vs 1.0) than the Apple CPU, and it is built on the newer ARM core. The Samsung CPU is based on the A15 ARM core as opposed to the A9 core used by Apple.

Everyone I've demoed the phone to has been blown away by how fast it is, even with about 50 apps running in the background. Once Jelly Bean drops, it will be even faster.

Needed on the memory-hungry Android platform

I've never seen any evidence that Android is more memory-hungry than iOS. I do appreciate that I can directly kill processes in Android and I have zero control over that in iOS.

Compromising design and SD cards are a relic from a time when you wouldn't just stream your media.

What if you don't want to eat up your bandwidth if you have a data cap? What if you don't have a signal? Loading from SD is just faster than streaming. Being able to expand local storage and stream as well is a clear win.

An unproven technology that has security (see recent Galaxy S3 hack through NFC at Pwn2Own) and privacy implications that appears to be focused on mobile payments where we believe Passbook to be a superior solution.

Microsoft is requiring every single Windows 8 phone and tablet to have it. Apple has a number of NFC patents and clearly intends to use it at some point, but has yet to deliver on it. NFC has been around since 2002 and is heavily used in Japan. It isn't new, unproven technology.

Made possible only by making the S3 1.2mm thicker than the iPhone 5.

The S3 is 1 mm thicker, not 1.2. It is 13% thicker, but has 33% more battery. Samsung engineering win there.

With a scratch-prone lens, as opposed to our high scratch-resistant sapphire lens.

Both are listed as scratch-resistant lenses. But the iPhone 5 sapphire lens should be more scratch resistant. That is a minor win for Apple there. It should be noted that the front-facing camera is still nicer on the S3, and Apple just now caught up to features many Android phones have had for over a year (photos during video, panorama mode, etc). And Apple still can't do burst photos like Android.

We believe our connector...

It is inexcusable to change to yet another proprietary connector in 2012 and not support USB 3.0. It will have slower transfer speeds and require proprietary adapters.

Re:Again

[LordLimecat]

But a fast dual core processor is going to give you better performance hands down in a phone while also giving you better power performance.

Someone tell that to Intel. They seem to be under the impression that if 2 cores are idle, you can shut them off, decrease the TDP, and ramp up the remaining cores.

But who are they to talk, they only design the things.

Sick of hearing about Apple vs. Samsung

[andy16666]

Is anyone else sick of hearing about Apple vs. Samsung?

Re:Sick of hearing about Apple vs. Samsung

[Anonymous Coward]

No, I love hearing about it. Especially because I used to love Apple. Now I see them as monstrous bullies.

Re:Sick of hearing about Apple vs. Samsung

[Morrighu]

Is anyone else sick of hearing about Apple vs. Samsung?

Unless you want the only mobile device you can ever buy to be Apple, I'd suggest that you take a bit more interest in it. Because if things keep going the way they are, there will be NO other choice in cell phone or tablet. You will either pay Apple's premium price for 2nd rate hardware and 5th rate support or you will do without.

Re:Sick of hearing about Apple vs. Samsung

[Dixie_Flatline]

What an utterly ridiculous statement.

Even Google said that Samsung was probably making their products look a little too much like the iPhone.

And then you've got the Nokia Lumia series, which not only doesn't infringe (and is a design that Apple themselves used to show that you can build a non-infringing phone), it's far and away the most beautiful phone design on the market today, in my mind. I WISH Apple would make something that looks like that. (I like my iPhone 4, but that Lumia really does look amazing.)

Oh, and the Windows phone OS design is ALSO an indication that you can build something that isn't anything close to the iOS design.

In my mind, Apple's crazy patents are the BEST way to ensure that there's choice in the market, not just choice between two of effectively the same thing. It's the big departures from the well established norms that bring interesting things to us. Apple's original entry into the Smartphone space was hugely disruptive, and they were very successful. Samsung has piggybacked on that success, whether you agree that they infringed or not. It's going to take another company doing the same sort of wild thing to really bring us something new and innovative.

Like I said, I own an iPhone 4, but I don't expect Apple to do anything innovative with their phone for years, if ever. They've made the product they wanted (something high quality and easy to use), and they'll stick with that--and that's not a terrible thing. There are worse ways to run a business. But for me to get EXCITED about phones again, well, that'll take someone doing something really revolutionary that I can't miss. Right now, beyond expectations, that looks like Microsoft. If they can really strike out on their own and differentiate their phone from everyone else, they'll claw their way into contention.

But Apple vs. Samsung is really just a sort of nitpicky argument. The iPhone 5 is better in some ways, and the Galaxy is better in others, but they do the same basic things. It's like comparing fridges. Both of them keep your food cold, but one has an ice dispenser and the other has a digital temperature readout. You pick and choose based on your needs at the time, but the Smartphone market is basically a choice between dull appliances now.

Re:Sick of hearing about Apple vs. Samsung

[PortHaven]

Really, but if you dislike their products, and they're trying to prevent you from buying any thing else...that's when it gets personal.

So I am using the system, I am meeting with my Senator. I am objecting, and if the courses available to me fail to achieve results than I will have to consider alternative forms of protesting Apple.

Re:Sick of hearing about Apple vs. Samsung

[sl4shd0rk]

It's just not something you need to worry about.

You're living in the exact blind loyalty dream world that every monopoly hopes people will live in.

Re:Sick of hearing about Apple vs. Samsung

[jedidiah]

No. We just have some understanding of what's going on here.

This just isn't about two marketing machines fighting. The US patent office and the US courts are involved. That makes the stakes considerably higher. The results could have serious long term consequences.

In terms of "the big picture", patents very much matter.

In some place they mean the difference between life and death.

Your just trying to white wash the situation and pretend that there is nothing serious or important going on here.

Re:Android is a patent minefield

[interkin3tic]

I sincerely hope microsoft is paying you to create new accounts and shill on slashdot. Because if you're just doing this for free, that's pretty sad.

Conversely, if MS is wasting money trying to get slashdotters to like the windows phone, that's really funny.

MINE!MINE!MINE!MINE!MINE!MINE!

[hillbluffer]

Apple and Samsung remind me of the seagulls in "Finding Nemo"....... "MINE!MINE!MINE!MINE!MINE!MINE!" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4BNbHBcnDI

It's too bad the juror wasn't on the supreme court

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

I loved his position that a piece of prior art could be dismissed because the implementation discussed ran on a different processor architecture. Judicial functionaries have a proud history of pulling distinctions out of their asses and calling them 'tests'(later given first names, if they catch on more broadly); but that one was classic.

Android isn't a patent minefield

[Anonymous Coward]

The USPTO is a patent minefield, granting obvious stuff simply because certain Americans think its hard to do.

Corroborative commentary which by no means reflects the view of the author of this comment and merely serves as an indicative backdrop to the post as a whole.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdIWKytq_q4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJuNgBkloFE

Even understanding simple issues like what was actually at issue seem too hard for most.

It wasn't Android that was in dispute but Samsungs own extensions that made it more Apple like which is why Google didn't pile in.

Note: Google/Motorola has now piled in and is asking for a United States wide ban on all Apples products.

http://www.usitc.gov/press_room/news_release/2012/er0917kk3.htm

One might see this as a retaliatory strike, who can tell, you reap what you sow.

But you have a to call to question the sanity of a process for instance that in the SCO v IBM case is still rumbling on after 9 years in the USA where as in the rest of the world, Germany for instance ... a simple and commensense approach was merely to say go away SCO and pay £30,000 euros every day you keep spouting bollocks.

How long will the Apple v Samsung go for I wonder?

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20120923233451725

Re:Prior Art

[punit_r]

why are they not attacking these patents directly?

Samsung lawyers are doing that as well in one of the many filings. Basically calling each of the patents asserted by Apple invalid due to indefiniteness because of vague words like "substantially centered", ambiguous use of dotted lines in the design patents, and so on.

See comment here for a brief summary.

excerpt:
Claim 50 uses such a term of degree, requiring that the first and second "boxes of content" be "substantially centered" on the touch-screen display. JX 1046.49 (emphasis added.) [...] There are no tests, parameters, or other criteria for determining whether such a box is or is not "substantially centered."

Talk About Bogus Patent Claims

[Morrighu]

Everything that Apple sued over is prior art. Seriously.... 100% of it. I don't understand why Samsung's legal team didn't just go camp at the USPTO with their prior art and get those patents revoked. No patent = no law suit. What a bunch of screw ups. And Apple is infringing everyone from HTC to Mitsubishi to Nokia to IBM with their "patents". Feel free to pile on and offer up your own examples of prior art.... http://patents.stackexchange.com/questions/457/prior-art-should-invalidate-apples-patents

Re:Android is a patent minefield

[Twinbee]

Good to see paranoia reign supreme on Slashdot. Of course it must be that he's a paid shill, and not one of a hundred more reasonable and boring possibilities such as:

1: He genuinely thinks that Microsoft's phone is a safer bet in case Android gets in more trouble
2: He's a fan of Microsoft products or dislikes Google (yes, someone can still like a company, yet not work for them).
3: He said it ironically/trollingly to get a reaction, as he too dislikes the patent mess, and wants people to get fired up about it (to motivate them or something?)
4: He's somewhat ignorant about the whole (complicated) situation (as I suppose everyone is to a degree)
5: Any combination of the above

Re:Android is a patent minefield

[Tough Love]

I think Apple has a case here for the specific devices that the look/feel were copied.

There is no such thing as look and feel in law. There is only a creative attempt by Apple to make some new law by suing Microsoft over trashcans etc some years ago, and there is "trade dress" in copyright law... a long shot.

Re:Android is a patent minefield

[Ecuador]

Agreed, it is a waste of space and time. We should be talking about bitcoins instead.

Re:Android is a patent minefield

[BitterOak]

Fonts are protected, even though the alphabet is clearly in public domain.

Interestingly enough, fonts in America are not covered by copyright, although the computer instructions that describe a font are. It is legal to clone fonts in America of you do it optically, and don't copy any code. This is how, for example, Microsoft could create Book Antiqua, which looks virtually identical to Hermann Zapf's Palatino.

Re:Android is a patent minefield

[AioKits]

Do you have any problem distinguishing between a robot and a half eaten apple?

Depends, am I in Japan and how much have I been drinking?