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Judge Posner Muses on Excessively Strong Patent and Copyright Laws

Ars Technica reports on Judge Posner's weblog, and in particular a recent post on the excessive strength of U.S. copyright and patent law: "The problem of excessive patent protection is at present best illustrated by the software industry. This is a progressive, dynamic industry rife with invention. But the conditions that make patent protection essential in the pharmaceutical industry are absent. Nowadays most software innovation is incremental, created by teams of software engineers at modest cost, and also ephemeral—most software inventions are quickly superseded. ... The most serious problem with copyright law is the length of copyright protection, which for most works is now from the creation of the work to 70 years after the author’s death. Apart from the fact that the present value of income received so far in the future is negligible, obtaining copyright licenses on very old works is difficult because not only is the author in all likelihood dead, but his heirs or other owners of the copyright may be difficult or even impossible to identify or find. The copyright term should be shorter." Reader jedirock pointed to a related article on how the patent situation got so out of hand in the first place.

12 of 100 comments (clear)

  1. About time... by ChristW · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Finally, a judge with any common sense?

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  2. Copyright is the corporate fiefdom by Chrisq · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Just as must of the nobility live of the income of lands that were granted to them in distant times, corporations like Disney want a perpetual and eternal income Mickey Mouse and other ideas that would have previously gone into the public domain. You can see that 70 years after death has been extended to 120 years after creation, and looking at the trends it is clear that the aim is to keep this moving so nothing enters the public domain again. Should something written by your great great grandfather still give you income?

    1. Re:Copyright is the corporate fiefdom by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Funny

      Should something written by your great great grandfather still give you income?

      Obviously not. However, the stuff my great great grandfather wrote under contract for Viacom should definitely still give them income. Anything less would be an attack on America, Job Creators, and our God-given property rights!

    2. Re:Copyright is the corporate fiefdom by Zontar_Thing_From_Ve · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I have long ago given up the hope that any sanity could be restored to copyright in the USA. The Capitol Records vs. Naxos case was unbelievably far reaching, with the court that heard the case ruling basically that every recording ever made in the USA, yes even back to Thomas Edison, was still under copyright. They essentially made up the law in their ruling, but as Naxos was clearly in the wrong (they knowingly violated a valid copyright on an old recording from the 1930s) Naxos didn't want to appeal and spend more money on a case they couldn't win, even though an appeal might have knocked down some of the more insane parts of the original court ruling.

      What really gets me is that in this current age of declining government budgets that nobody sees the biggest flaw of the Bono Copyright law - namely that it allows automatic renewal of copyrights for free . I'm not in favor of perpetual copyrights, but as others have argued, at least make the people that want them have to pay for them. If they are so valuable then charge for them. I cannot believe the US government is willingly passing by possible copyright fees by allowing automatic free renewals. At least if renewals cost money, some people would refuse to pay it and some things would fall back into the public domain and those who really consider renewals to be valuable would at least have to pay for it. A sliding scale where the renewal costs began to get more costly over time could also finally cause things to go back into the public domain.

  3. Meanwhile... by zblack_eagle · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...your bought representatives don't give a shit

  4. Hold the "Well, DUH!" by overshoot · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Of course this isn't news to us. The news is that someone in the legal community got the memo.

    And not just anyone. RIchard Posner is the most-cited appellate judge in the USA. He's incredibly influential, and most of all on topics relating to law and the economy. To give you an idea, he has almost single-handedly convinced the antitrust bar that there is no such thing as monopoly power, statutes to the contrary, and is spearheading a movement within the legal community to "revise" antitrust law to something closer to what the railroad barons would have recognized.

    So, yeah, we can feel smug. But we should also be very glad that this particular pebble is starting to move.

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    1. Re:Hold the "Well, DUH!" by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I do agree that copyright terms are ludicrous at the moment, and really only a cash grap by the likes of Disney, but the power to create and spread that creation is rapidly moving away from large companies and into the hands of individuals. A decent DSLR can create very acceptable HD movies with good lighting, sound gear is dirt cheap, home studios are springing up everywhere, graphic design programs are becoming simpler to use and master with every passing decade, it all adds up. I can see things reaching a stage where nobody really cares about copyright lengths because they'll be too busy making their own stuff.

      Doesn't mean they should be changed of course, the big fish will still try to trip people up, but we're moving from "consumers" to "competition". The only question is how long they'll take to realise it and try to patent "sci-fi".

  5. Posner has been part of the problem by JoshuaZ · · Score: 5, Informative

    Posner is one of the people who has gotten us into this situation. He wrote the opinion In re Aimster http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_re_Aimster_Copyright_Litigation which provided a precedent for a fair bit of modern copyright issues on the internet. He's also advocated in the past that linking to copyright violating material should be considered a violation http://www.becker-posner-blog.com/2009/06/the-future-of-newspapers--posner.html. Yes, he's right that the problems he identifies in TFA are there, but this is someone who has contributed to associated problems. It almost seems like Posner isn't quite able to say "I was wrong" but I guess we should take what we can get.

    1. Re:Posner has been part of the problem by JoshuaZ · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually, having just reread the bit about linking, I now realized that it is even worse than that. Posner was arguing essentially that linking to a legitimate copy such as a newspaper's website should be considered a violation. See also this prior Slashdot discussion http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/06/28/1619211/Judge-Thinks-Linking-To-Copyrighted-Material-Should-Be-Illegal.

  6. Why does he stop short of abolition? by ciaran_o_riordan · · Score: 5, Interesting

    He also wrote a good piece back in July:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/07/why-there-are-too-many-patents-in-america/259725/ ...where he repeats most of the arguments that people use to ask for abolishing software patents, but he stops short and instead muses on a few reforms (that probably wouldn't have much of an effect).

    Here's my views on his July piece:

    http://news.swpat.org/2012/07/posners-problem/

    And there're a few more links about his positions here:

    http://en.swpat.org/wiki/Richard_Posner_on_software_patents

    Abolition seems like the logical conclusion of his musings. I can't see why he doesn't discuss it.

    1. Re:Why does he stop short of abolition? by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 4, Informative

      This is demonstrably untrue.

      Prior to 1710 in England for copyrights, copyrights didn't exist anywhere. Yet plenty of works were created. And even today, most creative works are created due to motives other than seeking to profit from a copyright on those works.

      That said, I don't think copyright abolition is needed presently, just massive reform.

      Patents are somewhat better, but we'd be better off treating different domains of the useful arts differently. Software and business methods seem to not only not need the incentivizing effect of patents, but are actively being harmed by patents. For those fields, abolition would be appropriate for the time being. Maybe later things will change and we could revisit the issue. In other fields, patents still seem to have some use.

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      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
  7. Nonliteral copying by tepples · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I can see things reaching a stage where nobody really cares about copyright lengths because they'll be too busy making their own stuff.

    Not if the likes of Disney manage to convince a judge that people making their own movies with DSLR have infringed copyright in the nonliteral elements of works owned by the likes of Disney, or if people making their own movies with DSLR simply lack the millions of dollars to litigate a competent legal defense.

    The only question is how long they'll take to realise it and try to patent "sci-fi".

    And that's where nonliteral copying comes into play: attempts to use copyright to claim exclusive rights in the use of a specific set of tropes together, or to use copyright or trademark to claim exclusive rights in adaptations of a given pre-1923 story to film that one of the major studios has already adapted.