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Judge Posner Muses on Excessively Strong Patent and Copyright Laws

Ars Technica reports on Judge Posner's weblog, and in particular a recent post on the excessive strength of U.S. copyright and patent law: "The problem of excessive patent protection is at present best illustrated by the software industry. This is a progressive, dynamic industry rife with invention. But the conditions that make patent protection essential in the pharmaceutical industry are absent. Nowadays most software innovation is incremental, created by teams of software engineers at modest cost, and also ephemeral—most software inventions are quickly superseded. ... The most serious problem with copyright law is the length of copyright protection, which for most works is now from the creation of the work to 70 years after the author’s death. Apart from the fact that the present value of income received so far in the future is negligible, obtaining copyright licenses on very old works is difficult because not only is the author in all likelihood dead, but his heirs or other owners of the copyright may be difficult or even impossible to identify or find. The copyright term should be shorter." Reader jedirock pointed to a related article on how the patent situation got so out of hand in the first place.

18 of 100 comments (clear)

  1. About time... by ChristW · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Finally, a judge with any common sense?

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    1. Re:About time... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Informative

      I'd say that the jury is still out on Posner:

      A couple of his equally straightforward comments(this one from the bench), during a case appealing an Illinois wiretapping law: "But I'm not interested, really, in what you want to do with these recordings of peoples' encounters with the police." and "Once all this stuff can be recorded, there's going to be a lot more of this snooping around by reporters and bloggers,"

  2. Copyright is the corporate fiefdom by Chrisq · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Just as must of the nobility live of the income of lands that were granted to them in distant times, corporations like Disney want a perpetual and eternal income Mickey Mouse and other ideas that would have previously gone into the public domain. You can see that 70 years after death has been extended to 120 years after creation, and looking at the trends it is clear that the aim is to keep this moving so nothing enters the public domain again. Should something written by your great great grandfather still give you income?

    1. Re:Copyright is the corporate fiefdom by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Funny

      Should something written by your great great grandfather still give you income?

      Obviously not. However, the stuff my great great grandfather wrote under contract for Viacom should definitely still give them income. Anything less would be an attack on America, Job Creators, and our God-given property rights!

    2. Re:Copyright is the corporate fiefdom by Zontar_Thing_From_Ve · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I have long ago given up the hope that any sanity could be restored to copyright in the USA. The Capitol Records vs. Naxos case was unbelievably far reaching, with the court that heard the case ruling basically that every recording ever made in the USA, yes even back to Thomas Edison, was still under copyright. They essentially made up the law in their ruling, but as Naxos was clearly in the wrong (they knowingly violated a valid copyright on an old recording from the 1930s) Naxos didn't want to appeal and spend more money on a case they couldn't win, even though an appeal might have knocked down some of the more insane parts of the original court ruling.

      What really gets me is that in this current age of declining government budgets that nobody sees the biggest flaw of the Bono Copyright law - namely that it allows automatic renewal of copyrights for free . I'm not in favor of perpetual copyrights, but as others have argued, at least make the people that want them have to pay for them. If they are so valuable then charge for them. I cannot believe the US government is willingly passing by possible copyright fees by allowing automatic free renewals. At least if renewals cost money, some people would refuse to pay it and some things would fall back into the public domain and those who really consider renewals to be valuable would at least have to pay for it. A sliding scale where the renewal costs began to get more costly over time could also finally cause things to go back into the public domain.

    3. Re:Copyright is the corporate fiefdom by DaveGod · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The problem with inheritance tax is that it leads to a substantial amount of inefficient, uneconomic activity as rich folk try to mitigate it.

      Here in UK, if you have a large plot of land, you could:
      a) rent it out and let someone do something useful with it, or
      b) stick 1 sheep on it and claim agricultural relief.

      Option a) would have to turn in a profit equating to approx 100% of the value of the land in order to approximately break even with the 1 sheep.

      Why? Let's assume the plot of land is worth about $100. The net cash position with option
      a) $100 profit less ~50% income taxes = $50 banked, plus $100 worth of land, total asset values $150. Deduct 40% Death Tax, kids left with $90.
      b) $100 land, no IHT due to agricultural property relief, kids are left with $100.

      Similarly, say John the entrepreneur built up a great trade, but now his heath isn't so great and he's kinda run out of steam. The business is floundering, it isn't turning a profit, each year a few more staff are let go, everyone is demoralised and it's basically crap. Another entrepreneur, James, eyes up the business, has some great ideas and the ability to pull them off. He's really on the ball and has business lined up already, very comfortable he could turn it around and grow at least 10% per year. He puts in an offer of $1m.

      If John sells, he'll pay 28% capital gains tax now and 40% death tax on what's left when he dies. Net cash position £432k to his son.

      If he does not sell, passing the business to his son will fall under business property relief so he'll hand over the whole business. If the son later sells he'll pay the 28% capital gains tax, so he will come out ahead provided he can sell for more than 600k.

      Obviously the examples are highly over simplified, there's other things that can be done to mitigate etc, but you can see how it easily poorly thought out taxation can cast aside economics and basic common sense. I should point out that it's not just those reliefs or aggressive avoidance leading to perverse incentives, a lot of sensible IHT planning can. Also, for the avoidance of doubt I am not trying to suggest that IHT nor high taxes are a bad thing in principle, but rather that taxes have to be carefully thought about and designed - however they are mainly driven by politicians.

      And BTW I am an accountant and while the above are made up for illustration, the principle is no concoction. I do not need to guess the number of clients I consider "substantially wealthy" where IHT significantly impacts their strategic decision making, the answer is all of them.

  3. Meanwhile... by zblack_eagle · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...your bought representatives don't give a shit

  4. Hold the "Well, DUH!" by overshoot · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Of course this isn't news to us. The news is that someone in the legal community got the memo.

    And not just anyone. RIchard Posner is the most-cited appellate judge in the USA. He's incredibly influential, and most of all on topics relating to law and the economy. To give you an idea, he has almost single-handedly convinced the antitrust bar that there is no such thing as monopoly power, statutes to the contrary, and is spearheading a movement within the legal community to "revise" antitrust law to something closer to what the railroad barons would have recognized.

    So, yeah, we can feel smug. But we should also be very glad that this particular pebble is starting to move.

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    Lacking <sarcasm> tags, /. substitutes moderation as "Troll."
    1. Re:Hold the "Well, DUH!" by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I do agree that copyright terms are ludicrous at the moment, and really only a cash grap by the likes of Disney, but the power to create and spread that creation is rapidly moving away from large companies and into the hands of individuals. A decent DSLR can create very acceptable HD movies with good lighting, sound gear is dirt cheap, home studios are springing up everywhere, graphic design programs are becoming simpler to use and master with every passing decade, it all adds up. I can see things reaching a stage where nobody really cares about copyright lengths because they'll be too busy making their own stuff.

      Doesn't mean they should be changed of course, the big fish will still try to trip people up, but we're moving from "consumers" to "competition". The only question is how long they'll take to realise it and try to patent "sci-fi".

    2. Re:Hold the "Well, DUH!" by DJRumpy · · Score: 3, Informative

      I don't follow the logic. New technology making it easier to create content isn't really related to patent and copyright law directly unless studios start copyrighting movie 'themes'. Content creation isn't the issue (yet). Content creation technology, however, is. Right now it's still owned by huge companies. I found the main premise of the article kind of 'duh' moment, while the last link about how it got there in the first place to be excellent reading.

      We've all seen opinions about how Patent and Copyright Law has gotten out of control and this one isn't much different. The last link, however, was a very nice breakdown as to the 'breakdown' in the process.

      GOOD stuff...

    3. Re:Hold the "Well, DUH!" by dubbreak · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You have a great idea for making TV shows and movies about Asimov's Foundation series? Sorry, you can't, his widow won't let you.

      While I agree on principle, sometimes it's a good thing.

      First, I whole heartedly agree is a horrible candidate to do the Foundation series justice. But the only reason Emmerich can do Foundation and some indie group can't is because of copyright. The people with big bucks can do pretty much whatever they want whereas indies can't afford to even think about getting rights to do so. I'm sure there are studios sitting on books/stories they've purchase just so other studios can't do them (with no plans to ever produce movies out of them).

      That's the reality we live in right now with our mega corps. Not sure what to do with that singer you have in your rosters, but afraid she'll become a superstar elsewhere? Just make sure to have her tied down with a contract and run her in circles. Don't have time, interest or appropriate talent to produce a film? Buy the rights so someone else can't make it into the next blockbuster that over shadows your next formulaic super-action-rom-com-3D.

      Copyright wasn't created to be used that way, just as patents weren't made to prevent innovation, but that's how they are being used by our "do anything to make bigger profits" corporations.

      --
      "If you are going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
  5. Posner has been part of the problem by JoshuaZ · · Score: 5, Informative

    Posner is one of the people who has gotten us into this situation. He wrote the opinion In re Aimster http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_re_Aimster_Copyright_Litigation which provided a precedent for a fair bit of modern copyright issues on the internet. He's also advocated in the past that linking to copyright violating material should be considered a violation http://www.becker-posner-blog.com/2009/06/the-future-of-newspapers--posner.html. Yes, he's right that the problems he identifies in TFA are there, but this is someone who has contributed to associated problems. It almost seems like Posner isn't quite able to say "I was wrong" but I guess we should take what we can get.

    1. Re:Posner has been part of the problem by JoshuaZ · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually, having just reread the bit about linking, I now realized that it is even worse than that. Posner was arguing essentially that linking to a legitimate copy such as a newspaper's website should be considered a violation. See also this prior Slashdot discussion http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/06/28/1619211/Judge-Thinks-Linking-To-Copyrighted-Material-Should-Be-Illegal.

  6. Apple and Microsoft are the poster children... by andydread · · Score: 3, Insightful

    of software-patent abuse in the IT world with a goal of driving Linux, Android, and FOSS out of the marketplace. They are driving up the cost of writing software. Who would have thought 20 years ago that in the future when you write software that gains any traction in the marketplace (especially system software and operating system related) you would need an army of laywers because Microsoft and Apple will find a way to take ownership of your code though the use of software-patents. All your code are belong to us.

  7. Why does he stop short of abolition? by ciaran_o_riordan · · Score: 5, Interesting

    He also wrote a good piece back in July:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/07/why-there-are-too-many-patents-in-america/259725/ ...where he repeats most of the arguments that people use to ask for abolishing software patents, but he stops short and instead muses on a few reforms (that probably wouldn't have much of an effect).

    Here's my views on his July piece:

    http://news.swpat.org/2012/07/posners-problem/

    And there're a few more links about his positions here:

    http://en.swpat.org/wiki/Richard_Posner_on_software_patents

    Abolition seems like the logical conclusion of his musings. I can't see why he doesn't discuss it.

    1. Re:Why does he stop short of abolition? by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 4, Informative

      This is demonstrably untrue.

      Prior to 1710 in England for copyrights, copyrights didn't exist anywhere. Yet plenty of works were created. And even today, most creative works are created due to motives other than seeking to profit from a copyright on those works.

      That said, I don't think copyright abolition is needed presently, just massive reform.

      Patents are somewhat better, but we'd be better off treating different domains of the useful arts differently. Software and business methods seem to not only not need the incentivizing effect of patents, but are actively being harmed by patents. For those fields, abolition would be appropriate for the time being. Maybe later things will change and we could revisit the issue. In other fields, patents still seem to have some use.

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      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
  8. Nonliteral copying by tepples · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I can see things reaching a stage where nobody really cares about copyright lengths because they'll be too busy making their own stuff.

    Not if the likes of Disney manage to convince a judge that people making their own movies with DSLR have infringed copyright in the nonliteral elements of works owned by the likes of Disney, or if people making their own movies with DSLR simply lack the millions of dollars to litigate a competent legal defense.

    The only question is how long they'll take to realise it and try to patent "sci-fi".

    And that's where nonliteral copying comes into play: attempts to use copyright to claim exclusive rights in the use of a specific set of tropes together, or to use copyright or trademark to claim exclusive rights in adaptations of a given pre-1923 story to film that one of the major studios has already adapted.

  9. Re:Copyright protects profit motive, innovation by SoulNibbler · · Score: 3, Insightful

    That's not quite true, very often people with money are smart enough to not re-invent the wheel if they don't need to and would much rather pay you a consulting fee or a service contract to tailor the new software to the job they need done. That produces a positive incentive innovate as you now receive feedback as to the parts of your innovations that have marketable value. The trend of clean room reimplementations came about BECAUSE of overly strong copyright, if you can purchase the time of the creator for a reasonable fee why would you ever pay more to steal it??!