Mars Rover Solves Metallic Object Mystery, Unearths Another

SchrodingerZ writes "Last week the Mars Curiosity Rover spotted a shiny metallic-looking object in the martian soil. This week scientists have confirmed that it is plastic that has fallen off the 1-ton rover. However, the discovery of this trans-planetary littering has opened up another mystery for the science team. On October 12th the rover took a sample of soil from the ground, feeding it into its Chemistry and Mineralogy (CheMin) instruments for analysis, and a picture of the hole dug by the rover's claw revealed metallic particles in the dirt. The sample was subsequently dropped due to fears that particles from the rover had made it into the dirt. Further study now suggests that the metallic particles are actually native to Mars, as the photo reveals that they are embedded in the soil in clumps. In 2007 the older rover Spirit found evidence of silica for the first time, more testing will occur over the next few days to determine truly if this is again just Curiosity's littler, or something more profound."

Comments

Crossing my fingers

[The Grim Reefer]

I hope it finds massive amounts of palladium, iridium or some mix of rare metals. Nothing would kick-start a race to Mars like greed. Unfortunately.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Anne_Nonymous]

>> Nothing would kick-start a race to Mars like greed.

Well, that and the opportunity to litter.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Anonymous Coward]

Getting it back to Earth would cost far more than it's worth. Better to discover it in an asteroid.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Baloroth]

Getting it back to Earth would cost far more than it's worth. Better to discover it in an asteroid.

With the technology we have now, yes. The point would be to develop better technology to make it cost effective, and you can bet some companies would at least try.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Synerg1y]

As well as possibly an underground lost civilization with ghosts and monsters n' shit.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Anonymous Coward]

Most likely, as soon as it became economically feasible, the price would collapse due to either expected or actual oversupply, immediately bankrupting the idiots who went chasing riches.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[The Grim Reefer]

As well as possibly an underground lost civilization with ghosts and monsters n' shit.

Hopefully that big ass oxygen reactor is still working after all these years.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Anonymous Coward]

Not necessarily. What if only one company can make it feasible, they could regulate the flow onto the market to prevent it from collapsing. In theory at least.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Dan East]

I hope it finds massive amounts of palladium, iridium or some mix of rare metals. Nothing would kick-start a race to Mars like greed. Unfortunately.

So by "Unfortunately" do you mean that the only reason we should go to the incredible expense and risk of visiting other planets is for purely academic or intellectual purposes? Is there anything of actual value to our planet Earth that we can glean from pure knowledge (and knowledge alone) of Mars? Say we learn more about the history of Mars. Humanity applies that information in exactly what way to better our species or improve our planet in some way?

At the end of the day, for it to be worthwhile beyond the science that we are doing right this minute with rovers, there has to be something of value on Mars. Real, tangible value. Materials that are rare on earth, a stopover for energy to reach other parts of the Solar System and beyond, a low gravity place to make materials that we can't produce on Earth, or even a "lifeboat" for humanity - at the end of the day there has to be something a step beyond just knowledge for the sake of knowledge.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Ocker3]

If it needs to be restarted, where are we going to find an amnesiac super-spy with an identity crisis to restart it for us? We already have the three-breasted 'professional' lady

Re:Crossing my fingers

[abirdman]

They could cut costs with my new inter-planetary palladium/iridium drive, just off the drawing board, and raring to go.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Anonymous Coward]

>> Nothing would kick-start a race to Mars like greed.

Well, that and the opportunity to litter.

Obviously we need to prep a mission ASAP to put up some "no littering!" signs.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Anonymous Coward]

I heard that there are 60 million people living on Mars!

Re:Crossing my fingers

[poly_pusher]

Doubt is not a pleasant situation, but certainty is absurd. -Voltaire

So I guess what you're saying is that you're certain NASA is a waste of money. Well, I doubt you have any clue what you are talking about and it makes me very uncertain about our future...

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Anonymous Coward]

Not this, again. You expect me to believe there's a Confederate ironclad space rocket, in a dry riverbed on Mars? Aliens are dying from a plague which is really caused by rare metal contamination of their underground water supply? A local martian warlord is suppressing the local population, while the ESA has a secret contract with them to store our nuclear waste in their disposal facility?

And right about then, Dr Who shows up. *cue the intro music*

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Rei]

The advantage isn't taking metals back. It's using them on Mars. If there really is even just metallic iron, that'd be a HUGE benefit for colonization. Trivial to mine (scoop dust, blow over rotating magnetic collector), trivial to process (I once sketched out the resource chains to run a blast furnace on Mars and it's just staggering - if this is metallic iron and it's pure enough to be structurally sound if simply melted and cast, it'd be huge deal).

If it applies to metals other than iron, all the more the benefit. Anything you can do to reduce the massive resource chains needed by modern tech could be a godsend for actual colonization.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Darth_brooks]

Just like any gold rush; the companies that supply the provisions stand the biggest chance to get rich.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

Indeed. Maybe it's diamonds ;)

Re:Crossing my fingers

[DerekLyons]

There's not a metal on Earth that, even if transport prices to/from Mars dropped by a factor of 100, would be worth fetching from Mars.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[kenp2002]

I think you have confused profitable with greed again...

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Gothmolly]

It's not greed, it's simple math. No animal expends energy unless it can be reasonably sure the reward is more energy.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[The Grim Reefer]

If it needs to be restarted, where are we going to find an amnesiac super-spy with an identity crisis to restart it for us? We already have the three-breasted 'professional' lady

Dunno, but with the way Arnold's life has been going he'd probably jump at the chance to go to Mars.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Anonymous Coward]

don't forget element zero!

Re:Crossing my fingers

[drinkypoo]

So by "Unfortunately" do you mean that the only reason we should go to the incredible expense and risk of visiting other planets is for purely academic or intellectual purposes? Is there anything of actual value to our planet Earth that we can glean from pure knowledge (and knowledge alone) of Mars? Say we learn more about the history of Mars. Humanity applies that information in exactly what way to better our species or improve our planet in some way?

Probably you should read Kim Stanley Robinson's Red Mars and see what the character Ann has to say about it before your next comment along these lines.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Anonymous Coward]

To meet the spy criteria, do you think MI6 would take Sir Richard Branson? He's going to Mars - using his own money.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[mpoulton]

I once sketched out the resource chains to run a blast furnace on Mars and it's just staggering - if this is metallic iron and it's pure enough to be structurally sound if simply melted and cast, it'd be huge deal.

Well, it's a pretty big deal just to melt and cast iron when you're on a foreign planet with no life and CO2 for an atmosphere. And making modern useful things out of iron actually requires steel alloys, which means having other metals available and being able to control carbon content of the melt. When there's no fuel on the planet, that means you must use electric power. It takes HUGE amounts of power to run an arc furnace, and moderately use amounts to run an induction furnace. Millions of watts either way. That's a lot of solar panels to haul to Mars.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't Mars one big chunk of iron ore (rust)? I thought that is why it is red?

Re:Crossing my fingers

[arth1]

Nothing would kick-start a race to Mars like greed. Unfortunately.

Barsoomian women would have, but so far we haven't found them.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes! Let's spend billions to make millions! Greed! Grow up you deluded sci-fi nerd.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[chichilalescu]

um... actually, knowledge for the sake of knowledge seems good enough to me.
I agree it sounds selfish while there are still people starving to death, but knowledge in itself is a worthy goal.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Lehk228]

mirrors, made from steel panels a giant solar hotdog roaster

Re:Crossing my fingers

[khallow]

Probably you should read Kim Stanley Robinson's Red Mars and see what the character Ann has to say about it before your next comment along these lines.

Having actually read Red Mars, Ann was a flake and Robinson gave too much credence to the belief system in question. Having said that, if he didn't take that belief system so seriously, he would have lost some sales. So it was a financially sound decision on his part.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[ColdWetDog]

Well, that and the opportunity to litter.

The word you're looking for is terraforming. Makes it sound all scientificy.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[ColdWetDog]

What's the stock ticker for the Weyland-Yutani corporation?

Re:Crossing my fingers

[FatLittleMonkey]

The advantage isn't taking metals back. It's using them on Mars. If there really is even just metallic iron, that'd be a HUGE benefit for colonization.

However, without trade, the colony will always be dependent on its parent nation. And that's not really a colony, it's just an outpost. A really expensive outpost.

The advantage with asteroids (and to some extent lunar development), is that you can serve other markets. Even if it's not cost effective to bring the product back to Earth, as long as it's cheaper than launching from Earth, there should be a small but growing market for in-orbit delivery. Starting with fuel, then air/water, then bulk shielding and crude structures, and developing through more complex manufactured materials. And each stage also feeds back on itself, if you can supply fuel cheaper than Earth-launch, you lower your own running costs, and make whole new activities possible in space which creates whole new markets...

Such a process, once started, should then develop naturally, with each stage paying for itself and creating a market for the next stage; without requiring constant funding through traditional space agencies. [Although it will also give space agencies more bang for their buck. As well as making space exploration easier to justify to the average voter, and the very average politicians.] Until one day you read about how many people permanently live in space, and you realise that we are finally genuinely out there.

Mars won't do that. It will always be a "program", a drain. Historically, colonies like that always fail.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[IndustrialComplex]

There's not a metal on Earth that, even if transport prices to/from Mars dropped by a factor of 100, would be worth fetching from Mars.

Well duh, of course if it's a metal on Earth why send it to Mars?

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Anonymous Coward]

Like diamonds?

Re:Crossing my fingers

[ColdWetDog]

Wow. This is amazing. A random poster on some unscreened tech blog knows more about planetary science than all of those smarty-type folks at JPL and NASA.

What are the odds of this sort of thing happening?

You saw it here first folks!

Re:Crossing my fingers

[FatLittleMonkey]

Is there anything of actual value to our planet Earth that we can glean from pure knowledge (and knowledge alone) of Mars?

The question itself precludes, by definition, the value of any answer.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[ColdWetDog]

Really? Every worthy human endeavor needs to make money?

What an unpleasant and shallow philosophy you have there.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Trogre]

How exactly does mating lead to such a reward? Are you trying to make a case for orgone energy?

Re:Crossing my fingers

[10101001 10101001]

So by "Unfortunately" do you mean that the only reason we should go to the incredible expense and risk of visiting other planets is for purely academic or intellectual purposes?

Nice strawman, there. I mean, it's good to know that to scoff at greed is equivalent to be interested in something "for purely academic or intellectual purposes". Perhaps the scoffing has something to do with the fact that greed as a motivator to do things has all sorts of very negative side-effects--economic bubbles are a big one. Or perhaps it has to do with the point that a view that moderation is a good thing and liable to produce much more desirable long-term results while greed tends to, in focusing on being an end unto itself, be an almost pointless exercise a lot of the time.

Is there anything of actual value to our planet Earth that we can glean from pure knowledge (and knowledge alone) of Mars?

That's a pretty good begging the question. If you don't view "knowledge alone" as something "of actual value to our planet Earth", then there's little point in asking the question because no response that could be given would be acceptable to you. It entirely ignores that there are people who do, obviously, see value in knowledge alone and that a trip to Mars focused on expansion of humanity into the cosmos would be more than a pure knowledge expedition and not a greed motivated one.

Say we learn more about the history of Mars. Humanity applies that information in exactly what way to better our species or improve our planet in some way?

Are you serious? The very fact that Mars once had an atmosphere, once had [possibly flowing] water, was once possibly habitable, etc and yet now lacks those things means its precisely a very good potential model of what Earth may become in the distant future. Knowing this and specifically examining what is left on Mars may do very much to help us figure out either to cope with those risks or to even entirely avoid them realizing that Mars is a cautionary tale of what may happen if humanity does nothing--although odds are good, humanity won't be around by then. In short, we'd be able to learn from the history of Mars just like how we learn from our own history, to use as a guide of what has and could happen to decide on what to do to avoid bad things from happening again.

At the end of the day, for it to be worthwhile beyond the science that we are doing right this minute with rovers, there has to be something of value on Mars. Real, tangible value.

At the end of the day, the real question is what one places value on. Is it shiny trinkets and beads? Or is it one's life to enjoy those shiny trinkets and beads? And if one is forward thinking enough to recognize this, maybe one may be forward thinking enough to consider one's grand children or great grand children and just exactly what steps are necessary, in general, for the survival of humanity. But, you know, that all depends on if you see any value in humanity.

Materials that are rare on earth, a stopover for energy to reach other parts of the Solar System and beyond, a low gravity place to make materials that we can't produce on Earth, or even a "lifeboat" for humanity - at the end of the day there has to be something a step beyond just knowledge for the sake of knowledge.

Rare on Earth materials? Quite pointless except for a Mars colony itself. Stopover for energy for other pats of the Solar System and beyond? Not really sensical in any way since a free-floating platform would be actually maneuverable and would avoid almost all the escape velocity concerns. Low gravity for making materials? Uh...why not LEO and whatever gravity as needed through rotation instead of flying all the way to Mars and back? "Lifeboat" for humanity? Pretty well outside the scope of reasonable given the shear scope of reach to make Mar

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Anonymous Coward]

It'll repeat all history, the economy will crash, we'll hit a (dep)recession and those who survive will buy up the infrastructure and advances made and space travel will be cheap. It's a tale as old as human history itself, we had a few last century and we'll probably see a couple this one too.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the more likely scenario isn't smelting but utilizing nanobots for self replication/construction, so we're still a few decades away. This would definitely open up humans to land on mars, having a base built before they arrive.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Anonymous Coward]

I disagree with the 'unfortunately' part. Whether we're mining mars or the asteroids matters less than the info/knowledge needed to do so. The overall impact to mars would would be far less than anything we might learn or accomplish. Put another way, it's currently unimaginable that we could build the transport/energy infrastructure **capable** of marring even a few hundred acres of the planet's surface at a profitable rate.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Crudely_Indecent]

I'm reminded of a Mars movie that I saw in my youth (I spent a few minutes trying to remember the name, but it escapes me... even with internet help). In this movie, the native (humanoid) martians drove (wind powered?) boats and the (helmet-less) astronauts threw their garbage everywhere - throwing into streams was popular, as I recall. I remember watching it to the end.

Does anyone remember this one?

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Anonymous Coward]

Progeny is an extension of self. The more worker units you have the more sources of energy to be consumed. At least for your genetic code in the aggregate.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[SteelCat]

The Martian Chronicles, starring Rock Hudson and based on the stories by Ray Bradbury.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Ultracrepidarian]

I'm watching for a pull-tab.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[ericloewe]

It's a wonder so few people actually realize that introducing a massive supply of *insert rare thing here* makes that thing non-rare, bringing down cost.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Anonymous Coward]

Worse, there are people who automatically assume you need to obtain and dump massive supplies of *insert rare thing here* to get rich.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Anonymous Coward]

Where do you get the steel from to build those steel mirrors that you need to produce steel?

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Anonymous Coward]

The GP got it wrong. It should be that *genes* wouldn't expend the energy.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[jkflying]

Nuclear power doesn't need to be carried if you can source the components there.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[slashping]

If you're willing to invoke magic technology, why not get excited about old banana peels ? We only need better technology to turn those into precious metals.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[aaaaaaargh!]

at the end of the day there has to be something a step beyond just knowledge for the sake of knowledge.

History has proven over and over that there is not a single piece of "knowledge for the sake of knowledge" that hasn't turned out useful in one way or another later. Some people are too shortsighted and impatient.

To the skeptics of foundational research: Please take a look at the state of knowledge 300 years ago and try to find an example of genuine knowledge of that time that has no useful applications today. I don't claim it's impossible to find examples, but I'd submit that it's fairly hard. A typical example: Complex numbers were ridiculed in the beginning; now they are part of the standard science curriculum.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Anonymous Coward]

Even if they find gold plated latinum, it won't be worth returning it to earth.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[drinkypoo]

Having actually read Red Mars, Ann was a flake and Robinson gave too much credence to the belief system in question

Ann's belief system has two parts. One, rocks don't abuse people. We can dispense with that part. Two, if you don't study Mars before you terraform it, you lose any chance to learn about its past. We will change Mars just by being there. Since Mars has been so rocky for so long it has been simplified, and we should be able to get simpler answers to some of our questions. When we answer questions about geology we learn more things that we can use, because we live on top of geology.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[DerekLyons]

The very fact that Mars once had an atmosphere, once had [possibly flowing] water, was once possibly habitable, etc and yet now lacks those things means its precisely a very good potential model of what Earth may become in the distant future

That's the handwaving feelgood version... In reality, it's bullshit. The pre-conditions that made Mars what it is (low insolation, no magnetic field due to a massive impactor, low gravity, etc...) aren't anything humans can either cause or survive if (by magic in a couple of cases) they happened here.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[tmosley]

Things change, therefore, we should never do anything different.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[tmosley]

This is why the second resource to be scouted on Mars for local consumption (after water) will be fissile material (probably Thorium so you don't need vast amounts of water and a pressure container). You can use solar power to extract a small amount to put into a pilot reactor, which will then power the production of a full sized plant, which can power the rest of your operations.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[morgauxo]

That's why if you are the one introducing it you introduce it slowly. Stockpile if you have to. By the time it becomes a low value commodity you are insanely rich.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Magada]

The cost of bringing something back to earth is peanuts.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Crudely_Indecent]

The screencaps I found for that movie look correct! Thanks for the quick answer!

Re:Crossing my fingers

[gmanterry]

It's a wonder so few people actually realize that introducing a massive supply of *insert rare thing here* makes that thing non-rare, bringing down cost.

Like Diamonds?

Re:Crossing my fingers

[khallow]

Two, if you don't study Mars before you terraform it, you lose any chance to learn about its past

Which also doesn't work, because that hasn't been true of Earth either which is far more terraformed than Mars will be for a long time. We still learn a lot about the past, both our pasts and the geological past of the planet itself.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually .... yes.
You phrased it wrong though. Every worthy human endeavor REQUIRES money I think is what you meant to say.
Money is a store of value, actually its a store of human effort. Its quite ingenious contrary to what all the haters say.
SO yes ... everything worthwhile requires human effort.
Unless you prefer the other method. Which is to get beat with a stick until you produce value.
I for one prefer the carrot on a string approach that is capitalism, to the stick method which is communism/slavery. whatever you want to call it.
Or perhaps you are suggesting devolving back to a barter system .. that would really make travel to , and colonization of other planets efficient !!!!
Your a smart one.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[drinkypoo]

A lot of important clues will be lost if we introduce a bunch of new stuff into Mars' atmosphere. It's not that we won't learn anything, it's that we could learn so much more by studying it for a while first, taking some really good samples and so on, maybe even tenting over some sites for later study.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Anonymous Coward]

It is not unfortunate at all. In fact its not fortunate or unfortunate for that matter.
Every worthy human endeavor REQUIRES money.
Money is a store of value, actually its a store of human effort and or resources. Its quite ingenious contrary to what all the haters say.
So I would say yes.. everything worthwhile requires human effort and resources
Unless you prefer the other method. Which is to get beat with a stick until you produce value.
I for one prefer the carrot on a string approach that is capitalism, to the stick method which is communism/slavery. whatever you want to call it.
Or perhaps we should devolve back to a barter system .. that would really make travel to , and colonization of other planets efficient !!!!

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Anonymous Coward]

"Unfortunately" ...Sooo you would prefer that the required technology be developed how ? If not with money.
I don't really understand what is insightful about your post.

Please elaborate on what the "fortunate" way would be.
I am thinking maybe some sub-Saharan country holding its people at gunpoint(or maybe machettes) and forcing the construction of a launch vehicle, and all of the technology required to mine and colonize mars ... out of sticks and rocks and dirt and shit.

If that is indeed your plan. I think its awesome buddy.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no metal valuable enough to justify the cost of travelling to Mars and bringing it back to Earth. The only value of such metals would be to use them ON Mars.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[khallow]

Or we could learn that now. It strikes me that people won't be impressed by that argument in a few centuries (when the actual capability to begin some sort of mass terraforming of Mars might be around) no matter how things turn out, unless someone looks for and finds something worth preserving by then.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Anonymous Coward]

This implies that all effort, technology, and everything associated therewith is used and ONLY used for transporting these precious metals from Mars to Earth.

But as is seen in... well... every single industry on earth, in the process of developing the technology, materials, and methods to do objective A, you also spin off ideas and technology that is discovered to be incredibly useful for random applications B, C, D, E, F, G, and H.

So no, they won't immediately become bankrupt, they will be ludicrously rich for having started up a dozen entirely new technological advances which become insanely wide-spread. Or if you specifically don't own the patents/etc to all of these new technologies, you will be given SO many golden parachutes for having started B-G that you could probably retire after buying your own island to do so.

Shit man, you should be PRAYING that you had the opportunity to be in these shoes, not ridiculing them.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure? How about fissile metals? Sufficiently large and pure amounts would be easy enough to bring back - providing all the energy needed for the trip and more.

Not that it matters much, we don't expect Mars to have that.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod parent funny.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Anonymous Coward]

While you are technically correct in stating that every human endeavor requires money, you've completely missed the point that GP and others have made.

Not every human endeavor, worthy or not, needs to RETURN ON INVESTMENT to make it worth doing. That's the part about greed/profitable that you and every other commenter citing "doing things cost money, don't you get it?" have missed or are ignoring.

Prospectors don't go out in search of new materials/markets for the sake of finding them, or for the benefit of society as a whole. They go out in order to GET RICH, and so they expect to get a return on their investment into prospecting. This is also why we shouldn't privatize all R&D, people won't do it unless they can make at least as much money back as they put into it.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[ericloewe]

We're talking billions in up-front investment. You can't keep that kind of debt for long (see countless states, and here you wouldn't have the protections afforded to some states). An extra supply reduces prices, making it even more difficult to break even.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[ericloewe]

If you're talking about synthetic diamonds, don't forget they have near 0 value because they're not rare. They're used in all kinds of industrial applications because they're relatively cheap for the benefit.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Shotgun]

It seems worthy to you, because you aren't the one paying for it.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Peter5930]

You start off with a little 10kw furnace that you power with the small nuclear reactor you brought with you and bootstrap your way from there. Obviously you're not going to start out with a honking big anything; that gets built later, using the materials produced by your initial hobbyist-scale gear.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[FatLittleMonkey]

I meant the total cost of the returned product vs its locally mined competitors. Platinum group metals extracted from asteroids may currently be much more expensive than Earth-mined PGMs, so there's no market for bringing asteroid-PGMs down to Earth. But to get anything from Earth into space adds thousands of dollars per kilogram, changing the cost equation dramatically. So the initial market for anything produced in space is to use it in space.

(Of course, once we have in-situ fuel, reusable cargo transport between asteroid mines and Earth-orbit, and are making enough profit to have paid off all our asteroid mining technology, then we may find that a "waste product" from our asteroid mining, like PGMs, or even nickel-iron, is price-competitive even on Earth. When we cross that line, the rules of the game change forever.)

Re:Crossing my fingers

[garyisabusyguy]

Natural diamonds are not rare, it is simply that the people who have the largest supplies of them (de Beers, the Russians and now some folks in Canada) create an artificial scarcity by controlling the amount that they release onto the market

Re:Crossing my fingers

[10101001 10101001]

The pre-conditions that made Mars what it is (low insolation, no magnetic field due to a massive impactor, low gravity, etc...) aren't anything humans can either cause or survive if (by magic in a couple of cases) they happened here.

Uh huh. And I never said anything about humans being a potential cause in the future. And the lessons of survival would be most useful in the generic sense, to understand how life evolved on a planet that--in geological terms--quickly lost its atmosphere and water and how life adapted to those conditions until the environment became, presumably, uninhabitable. As the saying goes, necessity is the mother of invention. It's quite possible we'd learn a lot of very interesting and useful biology and genetics from life on a very different planet that would be very pertinent to life on Earth.

Yea, that really presumes that humanity might actually be around in one form or another--along with enough cultural knowledge--in a few million years and no, it speaks nothing of Earth being remotely in the same state as Mars in that time. Off hand, though, I could imagine learning more about life adapting to adverse water shortages on a larger scale or to a radical change in atmospheric component concentrations or quantity would be rather useful for considerations of long-term space travel. Even if nothing of the sort is gained, just finding out the actual biology of life on another world would be potentially amazingly useful to better understanding life.

Though I guess it's handwaving feelgood to actually try to keep humanity around in the cosmos, in general. Perhaps it's not really meant to be in any real sense. But, we are so dwarfing in our knowledge to really know at all what can and should be, that it seems more handwaving cynicism to presume from out limited knowledge of today that we have some real idea on the possible when we're unwilling to even remotely seriously invest into the very tangibly doable of today.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[garyisabusyguy]

I remember watching the old BBC show, 'Connections'

It was a fascinating take on history, but after a while I noted that almost every invention was first developed (at great cost) to aid some war effort (blow up stuff, target artillery, canned food for soldiers, refrigerated beef for soldiers...)

Even a vast amount of 'foundational' research that produced our beloved net-centric world was largely produced to provide decentralized communications following a nuclear war...

So, then 'profit' is probably a better incentive than 'killing' and the 'sake of knowledge' is pretty much left to crack-pots and tinkerers

Re:Crossing my fingers

[DerekLyons]

Uh huh. And I never said anything about humans being a potential cause in the future.

Uh uh. Learn to read moron, I said "cause *OR* survive".
 

And the lessons of survival would be most useful in the generic sense, to understand how life evolved on a planet that--in geological terms--quickly lost its atmosphere and water and how life adapted to those conditions until the environment became, presumably, uninhabitable.

Since we won't be evolving to meet such massive changes, once again you're off in cloud cuckoo land.
 

Off hand, though, I could imagine learning more about life adapting to adverse water shortages on a larger scale or to a radical change in atmospheric component concentrations or quantity would be rather useful for considerations of long-term space travel.

Since we'll be using technological solutions and won't be "adapting" for long term space travel... Well, you get the picture.

Science and pure knowledge is good, but ignorant handwaving bullshit and buzzwords are not. Learn the difference between the two.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Rei]

Nanobots: the modern substitute for "magic".

Do you realize how hard it'd be to build self-replicating robot at any scale, that has to mine and refine and cast every component in itself, from structural components to pneumatic fluids to computer chips? And it gets orders of magnitude harder at the nanoscale.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[DMUTPeregrine]

Or the Post-Terran Mining Corporation.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[DMUTPeregrine]

Some things are expensive because they are rare and/or pretty with few non-aesthetic uses (like gold.) Some things are expensive because they are rare and/or pretty with substantial non-aesthetic uses (like platinum). Massive amounts of gold would quickly lead to oversupply and lower prices, the demand for jewelry is reasonably small and the use in plating electrical contacts requires very small amounts. Massive amounts of platinum would allow several types of industrial uses on a large scale (it's a great catalyst and has uses in some battery tech) thereby increasing demand and potentially preventing a price crash.

Of course that all depends on how much "massive amounts" actually is, but with some things the cost drop will be offset by the increased demand for similar total profit.

Re:Crossing my fingers

[Magada]

the initial market for anything produced in space is to use it in space

Yes. We have the makings of a frontier economy. I think finished products will be exported from space way, way before raw materials.

traveling wherever

[Onymous Coward]

Might I recommend, as much as is possible, pack your trash.

Re:traveling wherever

[ItalianScallion]

Yea! what ever happened to "Take only pictures. Leave only footsteps." ?

I mean, imprinting "JPL" in morse code over and over in the martian dust counts as footsteps, I guess, but....

Re:traveling wherever

[Longjmp]

Might I recommend, as much as is possible, pack your trash.

On the contrary. If I had the chance to go to Mars today, I'd take with me:
A recent newspaper, a can of beer and a half-eaten sandwich.

Then I'd place them somewhere were Curiosity was likely to spot it, and return to Earth silently.

And probably run around with a huge grin on my face for the rest of my life.

Re:traveling wherever

[Tablizer]

Don't forget the Hello Kitty fanny pack with Justin Beiber stickers.

Re:traveling wherever

[Anonymous Coward]

Why, good sir, would you eat from the sandwich before you leave for Mars? It will have fur by the time you arrive and royally stink up your spacesuit.

I hope they find something that justifies...

[Anonymous Coward]

a manned trip.

Re:I hope they find something that justifies...

[Tablizer]

I hope they find something that justifies a manned trip.

Women

Extra points if they are green and have 3 breasts......and not in binders.

You know what it is

[Dantoo]

It is for now, Unobtanium. ;)

Re:You know what it is

[Anonymous Coward]

I was just thinking today about how I liked that name. I loved that nobody in the movie went "We call it unobtanium because it is virtually unobtainable.", because that kind of I'll-connect-the-dots-for-you-because-the-audience-is-to-stupid diolag really ruins the nuance of those things.

Re:You know what it is

[Anonymous Coward]

Just like ununoctium, which once octiated is virtually impossible to un-octiate.

Re:You know what it is

[tragedy]

Avatar didn't invent "Unobtainium". The precise origin is unknown, but it goes back at least to the 1950's and has been traditionally used as a stand in for any material that has all the desired properties for an application (strength, weight, heat resistance, etc.) but that doesn't actually exist. So it's not called "Unobtainium" because it's virtually unobtainable, but because it just plain doesn't exist. Movies seem to have picked it up as a MacGuffin. It was used for the magical material the drill was made of in _The Core_ for example.

Re:You know what it is

[loufoque]

"the" movie?
unobtanium is a classic, present in dozens of works of literature, TV shows and films.

Re:You know what it is

[jo42]

You mean Bullwankium. AKA the stuff the drops out the backside of a politician or upper management type or MBA.

Re:You know what it is

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe in the H.G. Wells novel The First Men in the Moon, the trip was made possible because heating some metal with helium around it allowed it to block gravity.

Re:You know what it is

[tragedy]

Oh, mystery substances with the properties necessary to make otherwise impossible things work have been around since antiquity. The oldest I can think of offhand is Adamant, but I'm sure there are even older ones. Referring to them as unobtainium started somewhere, however. I don't know exactly where, but the term seems to have been around for at least 60 years.

Re:You know what it is

[TechyImmigrant]

During my career electronic product design it has generally been used to describe flash memory during the many times that supply has gone on allocation.

Re:You know what it is

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, Burt Rutan was said to have coined the term, during his tenure at Lockheed's Skunk Works, while building the SR-71, which, in that era, may as well have been made of "unobtanium".

Gold!

[bware]

Nuggets the size of your fist! Don't tell anyone!

There. That always works to get the next territory settled.

Re:Gold!

[wonkey_monkey]

Nuggets the size of your fist! Don't tell anyone!

If your nuggets are the size of your fist, you should probably tell your doctor.

Re:Gold!

[demonbug]

Nuggets the size of your fist! Don't tell anyone!

There. That always works to get the next territory settled.

What's the equivalent of jeans on Mars? Better start investing now...

Re:Gold!

[Anonymous Coward]

Or your pothead friends. :-)~

Re:Gold!

[Anonymous Coward]

If your nuggets are the size of your fist, you should probably tell your doctor.

Great. Now I don't want to eat chicken nuggets again. Ever.

Re:Gold!

[Anonymous Coward]

Nuggets the size of your fist! Don't tell anyone!

If your nuggets are the size of your fist, you should probably tell your doctor.

Or the Laydeeez....rowr

Re:Gold!

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah, not gold. That wouldn't get people moving that fast.

Now if you found that you could sift or locate say... even 100kg of Rhodium, with more to be found, we'd probably be there next year.

Every hiker knows...

[AUX4Ever]

Leave no trace. Maybe we can do an LNT workshop at NASA.

Re:Every hiker knows...

[AaronLS]

I'm sure there's fragments from the sole of your hiking boats everywhere you've been, and little pieces of plastic from gear that's broken off without you even noticing ;)

Re:Every hiker knows...

[Anonymous Coward]

Why does a bear get to leave that disgusting load wherever he wants but if I leave some delicious Dorritos suddenly I'M the bad guy?

Re:Every hiker knows...

[Anonymous Coward]

Why does a bear get to leave that disgusting load wherever he wants but if I leave some disgusting and terribly bad for you and those animals that are going to eat it Dorritos suddenly I'M the bad guy?

FTFY... and the answer is now in the question...

Re:Every hiker knows...

[Anonymous Coward]

Except this a four wheel expedition. Tread Lightly would apply better.

Re:Every hiker knows...

[Anonymous Coward]

Thankfully I try to do as little hiking in boats as possible, so that isn't a concern to me.

The remains of a lost civilization.

[Anonymous Coward]

After they created nanobots, they were wiped out and all matter on the planet was turned to clumps, wasted, washed and blown all across the planet.

But really, hopefully there are some rare elements there in massive quantities.

Re:The remains of a lost civilization.

[aaronfaby]

Wouldn't "all matter on the planet" include the planet itself?

Re:The remains of a lost civilization.

[geekoid]

no. Only matter ON the planet.

Re:The remains of a lost civilization.

[viperidaenz]

The Mole People may have survived, since they live IN the planet.

Re:The remains of a lost civilization.

[Concerned Onlooker]

No. That's the part that doesn't matter.

Littler?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that German rubbish?

how about ...

[jest3r]

Drive the rover as far away from the Mars Garbage Gyre as possible before sampling the soil.

Otherwise it's like taking a dump in your own back yard and gardening it in.

Re:how about ...

[Master Moose]

I call that sustainable living.

Re:how about ...

[Anonymous Coward]

That is just silly - If you can afford a backyard most certainly you can afford at least an outhouse.

Re:how about ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget element zero!

Wha?

[Anonymous Coward]

more testing will occur over the next few days to determine truly if this is again just Curiosity's littler, or something more profound.

Curiosity's littler what?

Re:Quality Control

[jhoegl]

no no no.. it is a secret conspiracy to start dumping trash on Mars.
*evil laugh*

Re:Quality Control

[Anonymous Coward]

You build something that complex and send it that far and see what kinda luck you have.

Ill bet this is one of those "Your results may vary" kinda things.

Parts falling off?

[PPH]

Are they sure it isn't a Land Rover?

Re:Parts falling off?

[cyberworm]

They are sure. Its not leaking oil.

Re:Parts falling off?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's really bad news then - that means it has run out of oil!

USAF made?

[Anonymous Coward]

" it is plastic that has fallen off the 1-ton rover." Was it made by the USAF?

I know what the metal particles are...

[K. S. Kyosuke]

Curiosity obliterated the Martian Cyber-cat...with its laser "spectrometer". (Come on, seriously, NASA? Everyone knows what death rays are for.)

The beer can Opportunity will find tomorrow: mine

[WillAffleckUW]

Just a warning about that beer can.

The Rainier logo gives it away, I think.

Sample fed into ChemMin when?

[Anonymous Coward]

According to NASA press conference today (10/18, 2 PM CT), the third scoop was fed into the ChemMin instrument yestersol. They said they just got notice that the instrument got results and were being received as they spoke. The first two scoops were thrown away as per the plan and they were done for cleaning any remaining Earth molecules. Actually this third scoop was part of the cleaning too, but ChemMin is less far sensitive to Earth contamination than the SAM instrument which will be feed from a future scoop. (ChemMin is for mineralogy, SAM is a chemistry lab -- GC-MS, etc. -- that looks for organics among other things.)

Re:Quality Control

[Ocker3]

Exactly, you build something that complex, send it that far on a journey that violent, something's going to come loose. It could have been a part from so many places on the whole lander assembly!

Re:Quality Control

[demonbug]

Hey, haz waste is getting expensive to dispose of!

Actually, I do kind of wonder if it is getting to the point where it would have been cheaper just to launch rad waste into space rather than pay for all the studies and eventual construction costs associated with building a permanent disposal site.

unmarsed

[Anonymous Coward]

The term in the headline should be unmarsed instead of unearthed.

shhhhh

[Anonymous Coward]

i forgot i dumped some trash as i drove buy the film site....quick get some new sand form the back room ...

Bad summary.

[Anonymous Coward]

Curiosity did not reveal "metallic particles in the dirt." As the linked article states, it found "bright" particles. Bright does not mean metal!

Nanobots

[Anonymous Coward]

They're long-dead nanobots that devoured and reduced the Martian landscape (and Martians) to dust.

I think that would be something more profound.

How about a better rover?

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously, how about we build a rover where shit doesn't start falling off it within weeks of it's landing? Maybe use a few more lock washers or something? I'm assuming they're just not hitting other rovers in some sort of billion dollar traffic jam out there.

Re:How about a better rover?

[macbeth66]

Seriously...

Was the damn thing built in China?

Re:How about a better rover?

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember, they put it on top of a giant vibrator then dropped it from space. You can expect it to be a little shaken up.

CITO, right?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to wonder about the FTF on whatever Curiosity leaves behind.

My keys

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh good, they found my keys.

Re:My keys

[Tablizer]

So that's where all the missing keys, TV remotes, 80's p0rn stash, and left socks go. The greatest scientific discovery ever!

Shiny metal.... object

[Anonymous Coward]

Check for teeth marks..

Re:Quality Control

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, I do kind of wonder if it is getting to the point where it would have been cheaper just to launch rad waste into space

Farnsworth: Solving the problem once and for all.

Qbert: But what about--

Farnsworth: ONCE AND FOR ALL!

DeBeers & Diamonds?

[Anonymous Coward]

It also occurs to me that even if the supply was significant, the difficulty in creating enough capacity for bringing it back in large quantities could keep prices high.

Metal madness

[FatLittleMonkey]

Differentiated metals on Mars almost certainly came from asteroid impacts. (*) So discovering rare elemental metals on Mars means that you'll find it on asteroids (ie, not just on metallic asteroids, impacts mean the average carbonaceous will have a good coating of metallic elements.)

(* Unless there's some native metal crapping lifeform on Mars. Which is also okay.)

Re:Metal madness

[Zordak]

Unless there's some native metal crapping lifeform on Mars.

Been reading Ender in Exile?

Cartoon?

[seandiggity]

Someone needs to animate the rover dropping a piece, driving a few yards away, turning around, dropping a piece, going to inspect the first piece it dropped...and on and on...until it falls apart. Maybe title it "Curiosity Killed the Curiosity".

...and somewhere in there is a metaphor for human endeavor :P

Remember the other lander?

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember the other lander where they mixed up English and metric units. Probably bits of that lander that came in hard.

Certainly

[WindBourne]

You can do that on yours mar's rover.

Re:Quality Control

[Anonymous Coward]

not using plastic would be a good start

Re:The beer can Opportunity will find tomorrow: mi

[macbeth66]

No, not a beer can.

A huge Coca-Cola sign. It's what the Allies found as they captured island after island during WWII.

I wonder if the size will be limited to 24 oz.

Guilty ones are sacked

[tokul]

Marsian who left it on rover's path is sacked. The one who made it look like rover's skin part is promoted. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYzM1M1X790

"Confirmed that it is plastic that has fallen off"

[Anonymous Coward]

That's what they want you to think.

Knotted strings?

[aglider]

I'm fully aware I'm not a mechanical engineer, nor an expert of off world rovers.
But when I see all those strings hand-knotted to tie the rover's (unshielded) cable, I feel a chill on my neck!
Is that all the technology we could sport to have a reliable and durable rover?
It's just my ... curiosity!

Re:Knotted strings?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's called cable lacing, and it's common practice for spacecraft. It's lightweight, and very low profile.

Re:Knotted strings?

[DMUTPeregrine]

Cable lacing is a very good way to hold a wire harness together. It's more expensive than zip ties due to the labor needed, but less likely to damage the cables under stress. You don't see it very much these days since zip ties are cheap and good enough for static applications, but well-done lacing is used for high-end applications like the rovers.

Hope the first mars travelers are woman.

[Anonymous Coward]

Al this junk to be cleaned out..

dirt?

[Anonymous Coward]

had made it into the soil.

FTFY

Bright != metallic

[Anonymous Coward]

The particles they've found in the soil are bright -- light in colour, kind of whitish. That doesn't mean they have specular/shiny reflections like a piece of metal. The particles are something different from the majority of the particles in the martian sand, and for that reason they're going to take a closer look, but there's no sign the light-colored particles are metal. Take a look for yourself. It looks more like a crumb from some sloppy Martian eating chips than a piece of metal.

Proof! Rover was designed by Apple!

[TheSkepticalOptimist]

NASA will issue an apology letter "well metal scratches and plastic flakes off, just like our competitors".

But seriously, I know I can go to the beach with my niece and nephew and dig holes with $1 plastic dollar store shoves and not leave bits of it behind.

PhD PHB?

[Tablizer]

NASA is just like my boss: ignore the primary mission and instead chase after shiny GUI's and elusive sparkling rumors.

Counterproof

[Anonymous Coward]

FARMVILLE

That's one small scrap of plastic...

[terryk29]

for a rover, one giant bag of garbage for humankind. (dabs eye)

It's workable.

[Anonymous Coward]

The best discoveries in history were almost all made by mistake, the rest by declaring an answer and then finding more information / matter when backing up the answer.

This is a win, by that model.