Slashdot Mirror
Free Online Education Unwelcome In Minnesota
An anonymous reader sends this quote from the Chronicle of Higher Education:
"[Minnesota's] Office of Higher Education has informed the popular provider of massive open online courses, or MOOC's, that Coursera is unwelcome in the state because it never got permission to operate there. It's unclear how the law could be enforced when the content is freely available on the Web, but Coursera updated its Terms of Service to include the following caution: 'Notice for Minnesota Users: Coursera has been informed by the Minnesota Office of Higher Education that under Minnesota Statutes (136A.61 to 136A.71), a university cannot offer online courses to Minnesota residents unless the university has received authorization from the State of Minnesota to do so. If you are a resident of Minnesota, you agree that either (1) you will not take courses on Coursera, or (2) for each class that you take, the majority of work you do for the class will be done from outside the State of Minnesota.' Tricia Grimes, a policy analyst for the state's Office of Higher Education, said letters had been sent to all postsecondary institutions known to be offering courses in Minnesota."
I suspect there is a lot more to this story than anyone in the universities or legislature would ever admit publicly.
But I suspect the real impetus here is that the state legislators don't want anyone coming into their state without having to lobby (aka bribe) them first. Every state university has to come to them once a year with hat-in-hand, and they sure don't want anyone bypassing this system by coming in from out of state without paying their largesse. The patron expects his coin before you do business here, citizen.
What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
And it's profitable..
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
I read "Minnesota," (and MOOC) and instantly had flashbacks to grade school, Apple-II, and Oregon Trail. Here's hoping no one contracts dysentery.
I know what you're thinking. Did I forward 65,535 packets or 65,536 packets?
This is a requirement in EVERY state. We are dealing with it now at my university as we start to offer online classes - you have to register with each state's department of education (or equivalent). For most, it is a simple letter; others require more. I admit that this is the first time I have heard of this being applied to non-credit courses.
The sentence "Ms. Koller, who is on leave from her position as a professor of computer science at Stanford, said she wasn’t aware of any other states with similar restrictions." just shows that Ms. Koller is not very experienced.
Scary politicians
The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
I mean, we need to stop all those silly liberals from coming in here with those crazy notions of evolution, homosexuality being basically immutable, and Christianity not being the established religion in this country.
I am officially gone from
I'm from Minnesota, though I have lived in Chicago for the last 15 years. I've been watching my home state spiral into stupidity the whole time. It's actually rather embarrassing. After 15 years, it's only been in recent months that I've started to say "I'm from Illinois." Moronic stuff like this from MN is making it easier and easier to say that naturally with each passing day.
But I suspect the real impetus here is that the state legislators don't want anyone coming into their state without having to lobby (aka bribe) them first. Every state university has to come to them once a year with hat-in-hand, and they sure don't want anyone bypassing this system by coming in from out of state without paying their largesse. The patron expects his coin before you do business here, citizen.
Or they're sick and tired of fake online universities charging their citizens or occupying peoples' time for degrees that aren't worth shit. Total nanny state action but your accusations of bribery are completely without merit or citation. Do you know what accreditation is? Why aren't you accusing accredited universities of paying a local authority?
It's unclear how the law could be enforced when the content is freely available on the Web
What exactly is unclear? If they find the Coursera courses being used by public education institutions they will apply whatever penalties the law prescribes. No different than punishment is handed down to any company that does business in the state. Wow, that was pretty difficult to imagine, right?
"You don't have our permission to talk to people and teach, AKA inform them", which is the vital, core aspect of freedom of speech.
I am in favor of an amendment that allows guillotining of government officials when they lose first amendment issues.
j/k
kinda not sorry not sorry
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
In MA, you need a license to run a barbershop. Even if you give haircuts away for free.
"If you are a resident of Minnesota, you agree that either (1) you will not take courses on Coursera..."
Why would I agree to a Terms-of-Service in order to not use the service? That's completely contradictory.
I hate to say it, but the first thing that springs to mind is this being emblematic of the generally shoddy, poorly-planned work of these massive online courses.
We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
*Psst... hey Minnesota lawmakers..*... Just delete that Dial-up Networking icon from your desktop. It removes your Internets from your computer.
Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
For a accredited degree granting institutions that would be true. I will grant that there has to be some type of regulation, but I would quibble that they would have to register with every single state – but that is off topic and for another debate.
Coursera is not this. It not accredited so from an academic viewpoint why does it need to be regulated?
And is there anybody here from Minnesota that has any good ideas on how to get this changed? I am going to e-mail Minnesota Office of Higher Education, but I suspect that is only the first step.
Political donations are often considered bribes. That's very often the wrong understanding.
Much of the time they are donations to people who agree with you, but we just presume corruption.
But when corruption does exist, it's usually an extortion payment and the cost of doing business. We complain about businesses, but in reality if the government wants to crush a corporation or an individual that person or group of people are toast.
If you want to get the money out of politics, get the politics out of money.
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
You will need a license or 'permission' to speak... on the internet, or off.
One of the nice things about American censorship is its subtlety.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
Where I live, you have to get a permit to do just about everything that you're not doing for yourself on your own private land.
You can't even mow your parents' lawn without obtaining a license from the local gestapo, even if you're doing it for free.
You basically cannot perform any work for anyone else that would normally be a revenue activity, without getting the proper licenses and permits from the city.
And many people still think the United States is not a tyrannical big government police state. Sheesh.
A Ms. Grimes was quoted in the article, "This has been a longtime requirement in Minnesota (at least 20 years) and applies to online and brick-and-mortar postsecondary institutions that offer instruction to Minnesota residents as part of our overall responsibility to provide consumer protection for students,” However, Coursera is free, so how do consumer protection laws come into play? Also, take a look at some of the participating institutions : Princeton, Duke, Illinois, Brown, University of Michigan, Columbia... I'm glad the Minnesota officials are so vigilant about protecting Minnesota residents.
The State of Minnesota will do the following for people who have Coursera degrees:
They will not hire you
If you work at a company that has a State contract you may not work on the State project in any capacity.
Fines, lawsuits, etc.
I worked for the state for about three years. They have a lot of contracts in the private sector.
But feel free to take the courses. I'm sure it will all work out.
Here will be an old abusing of God's patience and the king's English.
I could buy that - expect that the "Comic Book College of Knowledge", which is located in Minneapolis, has not recived a letter to shut down their .... errr ... text book store on 4 color sequential art
This just shows the strength of the Teachers Unions in MN, and why they need to be broken.
What they're really saying is "Coursera, by offering the simple stuff for free, you ultimately threaten the jobs of all the shitty, worthless, lazy time-serving teachers we have as dues-paying members, and we cannot allow you to continue to do so. This is not about "the children" or the consumer, it's about protecting our own, and preserving that massive political power. We've spent millions fighting merit pay, teacher-quality review, and any sort of system where parents get to exercise any choice in their childs' (short of home-schooling, and everyone knows they're religious crazies anyway), and we'll be goddamned if you take away the easy, simple-to-teach online coursework forcing human teachers to focus on the more challenging materials to justify our existance."
-Styopa
The future will arrive regardless of what such fools do in their idiotic
attempts to prevent it coming.
"Where all the women are strong, all the men are good looking, and all the children are above average."
Because we hold the average down.
Have gnu, will travel.
Do Coursera's courses actually educate students? Do they educate students at least as well as classes at an accredited university?
The answers are, "Nobody knows" and "Nobody knows." Minnesota residents are not forbidden from visiting Coursera; Minnesota's schools are forbidden from using Coursera in lieu of classroom instruction.
Palm trees and 8
But I think that if universities (maybe not a real-one in this instance) such as MIT, Harvard, Stanford, et al. are brave enough to offer their courses online, why don't they offer degree credits for those people who complete the online courses?
You can take all the MIT openware courses you want, and do quite well, but I suspect "took online courses at MIT site" wouldn't sound too good on a resume, as corporations are credential-obsessed nowadays. This would apply more to people who don't have the time or money to attend an undergraduate institution full-time, but then are penalized in the job market even if they demonstrate an ability to improve their education.
Why don't these universities, in keeping with their academic mission, allow people to get online degrees or credit for free as well?
This Sig does not Exist.
Isn't a statute such as this unconstitutional given states do not have permission to regulate interstate trade. Coursera is not opperating in Minnesota. Instead residents are trading with Coursera over the Internet. It is the same in theory as them taking courses through mail.
Just organized -crime- ah make that organized labor flexing it's political might. Nothing really to see here. Minnesota has long had a uniquely perverse relationship with higher education. It's not surprising that the do nothing administrators and do little teachers would instruct their minions in government to issue this edict. I'm sure without federal preemption they'd force ISPs to block this invasion of their fiefdom.
Coursera's answer should simply be "We're not operating in Minnesota. Our servers are in $PLACE. Minnesota has no jurisdiction in $PLACE. Have a nice day."
I use Coursera and many of the comments show that few posters haven't a clue what Coursera is.
1. Coursera IS a collaborative effort among major Universites (I am using it to take courses from
the University of Michigan, Duke and Stanford). There is no such thing as a Coursea course, it is
only a channel by which existing well respectedUniversities offer their courses to the larger online community.
2. More specifically Coursea is a channel for self education and does not offer ANY academic credit
from institutions that use that channel for their courses. They also do not charge. There is no such
thing as a "Coursera transcript"
3. Coursera is not unique. There is a similar collaborative effort between Harvard and MIT to offer their
courses on line in a similar manner called edx.org.
The law is clearly misapplied since Coursera is not a university or academic institution no does it claim to be, the
law would only apply to all the Universities that use Coursera. Of course I suppose once you really have to
keep an eye on those shady, fly by night operations like Berkeley, Stanford, MIT, Harvard and Yale.
They need to go to Iowa, Wisconsin, or one of the Dakotas just to do their Coursera homework! They don't want to have to go to Canada though, they might get labeled as terrorist for crossing the border too many times.
Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
I didn't know about coursera until this article. I am excited to have access to this type of material. This site is perfect for people like me who want to gain knowledge in a field without the burden of a full university program. Its a free tutorial site on steroids. I don't understand the State's problem. This site isn't handing out degrees or anything. They probably fear for their 'monopoly' on higher education. Either way, I signed up for some Astronomy classes starting in a few weeks.
http://www.change.org/petitions/minnesota-office-of-higher-education-allow-minnesotans-to-access-free-open-access-courseware-through-coursera
Never heard of these guys , now your stupid action has brought them to my attention.
...if any US citizen *does* want to enter, feel free to take my idea! (I'm sure many others have proposed it already though...) Simply a CAPTCHA, audio version. Using DTMF codes to answer. i.e. "To connect this phone call, please type the number three thousand, seven hundred and twenty two on your keypad". Known "white listed" caller IDs can skip it. It can be made harder by presenting mathematics or asking "Please type on your keypad the number of duck quacks you hear ... woof quack moo quack woof."
Etc.
I think therefore I am... a Linux geek.
Governments, including eh federal government and state government or local governments do not have any say in the matter. You can teach and learn from any online university of your choice. If the state decides not to recognize your degree then, that is their choice, but otherwise you can operate anyplace.
The state of Minnesota is unwelcome on the Internet, because we the citizens of Cyberspace and Anonymous, did not give them permission to operate on the net.
Can I help you sir? You seem to be lost.
Minnesota legislators are bought and paid for by teacher and similar cooperating unions and agree to drive out any competition wherever possible.
Right now there are numerous so-called colleges and universities that are a complete sham. Some even have brick and mortar campuses. They might own their own accrediting outfit as well. We have young people paying a fortune who not only receive no education at all but also contaminate the playing field in such a way that most employers will be deceived when hiring people with these pseudo diplomas.
Free education on line is wonderful. We need a ton of it. And the courses could be accredited. There does need to be a real effort to make certain the student passes muster and not a group or parents or friends if any credentials flow from such courses. This even gets into medical employment where a small error can be lethal. One accrediting organization should have the power to regulate quality in all schools. The game where small, private colleges, have their own accrediting systems is a moral outrage. We also need to stop trade schools from being involved in teaching subjects where a proper university diploma should be in place.
... you could turn this argument around, though, and argue that if respected universities are involved, they can comply with the law like everyone else. They're not struggling institutions that don't have the resources and are economically disadvantaged by existing monopolies.
I think this whole scenario is a big misunderstanding, but if Minnesota has consumer protection laws protecting people from what they consider to be misleading fraud, they're going to enforce it. Minnesota is very vigorous in enforcing consumer protection law (relatively speaking).
We can get into arguments about what's protecting consumers, but you have to at least acknowledge that things like Coursera are possibly misleading about what people are getting (this is assuming you recognize the value of an actual in-person education, which I'm not sure everyone on Slashdot does).
From their About Us page: "[Coursera is] a social entrepreneurship company that partners with the top universities."
A quote from their front page: "Higher education that overcomes the boundaries of geography, time and money!"
To anyone who has any sense of perspective, and hasn't completely been brainwashed by the online educational bubble, things like that sound pretty sketchy. It's a company (presumably aiming to make money) that's claiming its products somehow transcend the basic laws of physics and economics. It's textbook signs of fraud.
Don't misunderstand me: I want online education to succeeed and increase competition in education. However, players also need to be honest and forthright about what they can provide and what they can't provide. They need to subject themselves to the same scrutiny as anyone else. Just because half of the country doesn't believe in evolution doesn't mean evolution hasn't happened, and just because huge people want to delude themselves they're getting a university education for free without any human contact doesn't make it so. Berkeley, Stanford, MIT, Harvard, and Yale can play by the rules just like they always have.
Think about it this way: maybe legal scrutiny will force some of these companies to demonstrate what they are and are not. Everyone would benefit.
Minnesota is redneck and backwards, they could use the free education.
...asking if the Office of Higher Education was correctly interpreteting the 1980s era law in question. If they are, I requested information as to how they plan to address the issue. One sits on the Education Reform committee, so I'm hoping to hear that it gets placed on their agenda for debate.
Anyone who did their diligence on the accredited education market in the United States would know each state has requirements as does the federal level.
See the first amendment and the commerce clause. A state has no legal power to stop someone from offering free education online.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Coursera makes their site look like they're a real academic institution. Yes, they say "free", but lots of sites say "free" and lie. It's not clear whether "free" is just a bait to get people to sign up, and then attempts are made to "upgrade" them to a paid account. Or there may be "fees". Their terms say "We reserve the right to change or modify the Terms of Use at our sole discretion at any time. Any change or modification to the Terms of Use will be effective immediately upon posting by us. " So they could add fees at any time.
There's a scam where online schools sign up students, and collect enough information that the school can apply for financial aid from the U.S. Department of Education. "The inspector general's office says participants in 42 different fraud rings have been convicted and more than $7.5 million in restitution and fines have been ordered in the past six years. This may be only a small portion of the problem."
See Belford University, which the BBB says is a scam that's generated hundreds of complaints.
It's quite proper for a consumer-protection agency to be concerned.
Coursera updated its Terms of Service to include the following caution: 'Notice for Minnesota Users: Coursera has been informed by the Minnesota Office of Higher Education that under Minnesota Statutes (136A.61 to 136A.71), a university cannot offer online courses to Minnesota residents unless the university has received authorization from the State of Minnesota to do so. If you are a resident of Minnesota, you agree that either (1) you will not take courses on Coursera, or (2) for each class that you take, the majority of work you do for the class will be done from outside the State of Minnesota.'
or (3) you will take courses on Coursera while living and working in Minnesota, and you just won't give a shit what Mickey Mouse laws your state's penny-ante legislature comes up with because they don't own you, and can't legally sensor things, like the internet, although you acknowledge they sure wish they could, just like every other repressive regime on the planet. In addition, (4) you agree to move away from that shithole of a state as soon as is feasible, and find a real state to live in, one that does not waste its time threatening people or organizations for no good Goddamned reason.
This is exactly the problem and why the regulations exist, they don't know if something legit or not in order for it to serve it's purpose everybody must get equal regulation. Just because you might like and know some org is legit doesn't mean that the regulators should just green light it-- they need to do their job, check it out, and then arrive at the same conclusion as you did.
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
Uncontrolled education is dangerous for the republic.
I called the Trish that is quoted in the article, ./\
She quickly interrupted and asked, is this about coursera? I said yes.
She went into a 30 second speach about how the Chronical of Higher Ed article was wrong.
I asked her how it was wrong and she gave me another person to talk to.
I called him and it went right to VM, I'll call back soon and update
--ANON
Greetings, Mr. A. Coward from Anonymous Proxy. Your first class begins on...
kinda reminds me of 2003:
LOS ANGELES, California (Reuters) -- Los Angeles officials have asked that manufacturers, suppliers and contractors stop using the terms "master" and "slave" on computer equipment, saying such terms are unacceptable and offensive. http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/ptech/11/26/master.term.reut/
"The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers." Princess Leia to Grand Moff Tarkin ...
Let's assume a professor at Harvard publishes a series of articles about his specialty (say, astronomy), and syndicates it to newspapers around the country as the delivery mechanism. I use this example to clarify the constitutional issues. I think it is pretty clear this falls under freedom of speech, and the state cannot restrict what he says. Now substitute video for written article, and the consumer's ISP as the delivery mechanism (which is how Coursera works). From a legal standpoint, has anything changed because the professor's words are delivered a different way? I think not.
Coursera is acting as the syndicator, just like newpaper columnists work through syndicators to get their columns distributed to multiple newspapers. ISPs replace the newspaper as the way to deliver to the home. Just because the content being delivered is educational, it does not lose first amendment protection, and cannot be restrained the Minnesota is attempting to.
I have a feeling that Minnesota doesn't have a case here. They can choose not to accredit the online university, but they can't prohibit people from using it, especially since it is free. I'm pretty sure the 1st Amendment would cover this.
If an employer doesn't know better than to use a degree as a way to get a foot in the door at best, and do proper skills interviewing, they deserve the crap they get, which is equally possible to get from either poor accredited institutions or people that squeaked through good ones. State accreditation doesn't ensure a good hire and lack of it doesn't ensure a bad one.
In fact, I would go so far as to say the game where the state gets to accept bribes to decide who gets to be "accredited" or not is a moral outrage, not private accreditation, which is worth only its reputation (consider Underwriters' Laboratories, for example, in the sphere of evaluating and certifying electronics; how long after they started approving crap until their reputation would be ruined?).
Who are you - or anybody - to say what "trade schools" should or should not be teaching? Not everyone, for example, wants to study theoretical computer science as opposed to learning the basics of programming. Outside of actual fraud, what a person teaches or learns and what degree they want to stamp on it and what agency accredits the degree should be no business of the state, but open to competition.
Sounds like a lot of finger pointing going on. I am a teacher / union member and have not come across any "online course opposition" from the union.
"The lady doth protest too much, methinks." – William Shakespeare
Clearly the law was intended for the "draw this doodle and see if you get accepted to our art school and we'll even set up your student load to pay for it" borderline fraud schools. Hard to prove actual fraud if they teach you the littlest bit. The Feds have since tightened up these types of student loans (or at least talked about it) awhile back.
I've lived here all my life. The first thing you need to know about Minnesota is that it is the "State where nothing is allowed." as local radio jockey would say.
The second thing is at all levels a favorite thing to do here is crawl as far up your business as possible.
As an example; Governor Dayton actually came out after the state house and senate both passed bills to liberalize the use of small scale consumer fireworks and admitted that he was lobbied by the firemen lobby and he used their opinions and "feelings" and emotions to decide against the state voter constituency's legislation and vetoe'd the bill.
Now I'm not a huge fanboy for fireworks, couldn't care less, but this is a key example of the mentality of "mother knows best" and it runs sooo deep here.
This is also the state where the governor alone tried to unionize all private home daycare centers whether they wanted to be union or not, in a clear example of trying to force union membership rolls to grow as repayment for him winning the election. This would force these new members to pay dues, and to offset the cost, raise their rates.
you really have to keep an eye on those shady, fly by night operations like Berkeley, Stanford, MIT, Harvard and Yale.
Aren't those university where most of our politicians graduate? So ya we need to keep an eye out for those shady graduates.
Unless Coursera has either offices or servers physically based in Minnesota, the state has no legal power or jurisdiction over it's activities. Minnesota is saying that they have the right to regulate certain internet businesses/services no matter where they are located or operated, worldwide. Personally, I doubt they do.
Just (in)joking... :D
The game was developed in Minnesota, got played on lotsa Apple computers in schools and the rest is history.... :)
I played it-it was fun though shooting bison for food was EXTREMELY wastefull....
CAPTCHA: chaired (cue Balmer jokes.... :P)
Out of curiosity I went to https://www.coursera.org/. What do I at once on the first page?
Introduction to Genetics and Evolution
Follow the money trail...
Oops, wait, its free. Oh, so its not generating salaries for the teachers, administrators, lobbyists...
There's your problem!
"Unless Coursera are offering highly biased education or in some way poisoning the minds of those that take their courses the people that are opposing them are opposing the basic human right to knowledge."
Well, there went Liberty University!
I live in Minnesota, and I'm going to take courses through Coursera starting today!
Civil disobedience, bitches!
"Slow down, Cowboy! It has been 3 years, 7 months and 26 days since you last successfully posted a comment."
I can drive over a bridge and be in an educationally forward thinking state and hot bed of academic progress, Superior, Wisconsin! I CANT believe this is true. DIY EDU is the future of Higher Ed and MN should be on the leading edge, not some ineffectual backwater. Here's the letter I sent to the Office of Higher Ed. Please explain how this is possible. Are you saying that , in fact, I am subject to some form of legal action if I attempt to better myself through free course offerings as a resident of Minnesota? Please explain the logic in this? Am I in violation of law by pursuing free online knowledge? If this is the case, please put me at the head of the line for legal action! I just took the Coursera MOOC on Gamification, I'm expecting the certification to arrive any day, I dont want a "coursera degree" - they DONT EXSIST! I did well in the course. It was eminently rewarding and I know that I will be able to directly apply the knowledge I gained in the course in the pursuit of my professional goals. If I create taxed income based on the knowledge I gained in the course, will the state of MN want a part of that? I live in Duluth. Should I go to Superior WI and do the coursework? Please contact me asap, I plan on pursuing more MOOC coursework and want to know if I'm breaking the law.