Standard For Electric Car Charging Announced

SchrodingerZ writes "The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE), an international syndicate, has unveiled what is to become the standard for electric car charging. In today's market there are hundreds of different methods and plugs to charge a variety of different cars, now a single multi use plug is announced as the world standard. Called the J1772 , it 'has two charging plugs incorporated into a single design and is said to reduce charging times from as long as eight hours to as little as 20 minutes.' The cumulative work of over 190 'global experts,' the plug can cater to both AC and DC currents for charging. The plug also sets a new standard on safety regulations, including 'its ability to be safely used in all weather conditions, and the fact that its connections are never live unless commanded by the car during charging.' The J1772 beat out its Japanese competitor the CHAdeMO, used as an option on the Nissan Leaf."

Comments

Another one?

[Kenja]

We went through all this in the 90's. Even had "standard" charges at the public transit stations. Ah well, perhaps it'll stick this time.

Re:Another one?

[i kan reed]

Yeah, I'm wondering that too. As of a few months ago my city put up electric charging stations all around the downtown area. If there wasn't a standard, then why did the stations lack any model information.

Re:Another one?

[Art Challenor]

The summary (as usual) is a little misleading. The J1772 standard has been around for a while and is widely adopted. As I understand it, the "new" part to this is the addition of an optional, additional, connector that allows DC charging.

High power AC/DC converters are expensive and generate heat, so require costly in-vehicle infrastructure. If the conversion is moved the charging station the on-board electronics are simplified.

So you can have a relatively low-cost, slow charger at home. Charging stations can provide a fast DC charge. The initial cost of the charging station would increase, but the cost per vehicle would be much lower. So if 10 people per day spend 30 minutes charging you can amortize the higher cost of 10 vehicles.

Re:Another one?

[tlhIngan]

Yeah, I'm wondering that too. As of a few months ago my city put up electric charging stations all around the downtown area. If there wasn't a standard, then why did the stations lack any model information.

Technically, the standard for those charging stations would be the traditional 3 pin 15 amp socket that you plug anything into. Because every electric car can plug into a atandard 110V 15A socket (at least in North America).

Problem is, the end that goes into the car isn't standard, so those charging stations rely on the user to haul around the charging cable wherever they went. And the car end is important because it has to handle charging from a 110V15A socket, but the user at home may have bought a fast charger using 220V15A or higher. And perhaps you want DC if you're wanting alternative energy so instead of wasting energy inverting and then rectifying power, you can plug straight into your battery bank.

So this stadnard means charging stations can continue to offer standard 110V sockets (with owner-provided power cord) and provide the connector at the end of a cord (like gas station nozzles) so the owner doesn't need their car cable and the car can charge faster if it needs to.

Re:Another one?

[udachny]

Just today I went to the business event held in Baden Baden, dedicated to investing in various alternative energy solutions, including the new electrical concept cars presented by BMW mostly (taking off to the related Gala event in a few minutes). It looks like they are aiming at the Asian market with the new electric concepts, they know they have to overcome Toyota Prius and other similar cars, they are hoping for Chinese investment to do this (funny enough, the Chinese investor guy didn't show up for the 500 people event that was basically staged for him). I think you are right, whatever this story calls a 'standard' is irrelevant, there is not even an agreement on what the tech will be. Will it be a hybrid, hydrogen or electrical or something else. They presented all of these possibilities, probably mostly aiming at hybrids, not pure electrical models.

Re:Another one?

[tgd]

Yeah, I'm wondering that too. As of a few months ago my city put up electric charging stations all around the downtown area. If there wasn't a standard, then why did the stations lack any model information.

Because, like every other damn story on here, Slashdot's editors are a bunch of drooling mouth breathers and don't edit anything.

Virtually every EV already uses the J1772 standard. In fact, I think Tesla is the only car that doesn't, but IIRC it comes with an adapter.

Re:Another one?

[Anonymous Coward]

What all is required to convert ac to dc? I thought all you needed was 4 resistors in the right arrangement.

Re:Another one?

[Anonymous Coward]

4 diode's, and its pretty ineffecient/dirty way of doing it.

Re:Another one?

[Art Challenor]

Not really my area, but take a look at, for example, http://www.emotorwerks.com/cgi-bin/VMcharger_V9.pl

Cooling is a big issue. If a 15kW charger is 95% efficient, then you need to remove 750W.

High power, high voltage electronics is well understood, so it's a design project not a research project, but it definitely is a specialty that is different from, say, 5V mA type electronics. And all the components are much more expensive.

Re:Another one?

[fisted]

it isn't inefficient and it isn't dirty either. the only problem is one needs a huge cap.

Re:Another one?

[olden]

So you can have a relatively low-cost, slow charger at home. Charging stations can provide a fast DC charge.

This is the whole idea, it makes tons of sense and is exactly where manufacturers are headed... oh wait, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Subaru, Peugeot etc are already there!

Maybe this SAE re-announcement is only meant to muddy the waters about DC fast charging, in the hope to slow down its much-needed deployment in the US and possibly elsewhere, reducing the usefulness and therefore attractiveness of pure EVs... To please some existing industry(ies)? To help non-Japanese automakers catch up? [insert your own conspiration theories here]

Unless Nissan comes up with a surprise with its 2013 Leaf (2011 and 2012 use CHAdeMO), or Tesla Motors jumps ship, this SAE proposal doesn't seem in good shape...

Re:Another one?

[Art Challenor]

There are 8000 charging stations in the US (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charging_station your document references 1659 CHAdeMO mostly in Japan). I would expect that most in the US are J1772. Almost all the EVs sold in the US support that standard, the Volt, the Leaf, Tesla S, the X with an adapter, etc. etc. Many manufacturers also seem committed to supporting the DC addition.

Seems to be more of a US vs. the rest of the world type of thing, which is not a tragedy given that both those markets are big enough to support one standard each and there really isn't much traffic between the two.

There's really not much to the J1772 beyond the format of the plug. There's a tiny amount of logic that says that says whether it's connected. I can't imagine that the CHAdeMO standard is much different and that dual-format charging stations, or adapters for the cars would be a big deal.

Re:Another one?

[Medievalist]

What all is required to convert ac to dc? I thought all you needed was 4 resistors in the right arrangement.

4 diode's, and its pretty ineffecient/dirty way of doing it.

it isn't inefficient and it isn't dirty either. the only problem is one needs a huge cap.

Without that huge capacitor, it's as dirty as it gets. And isn't the efficiency determined by the diode voltage drop?

Hey, look, I built a pedant cascade!

Re:Another one?

[ganjadude]

someone should inform apple on this "standards" thing

Re:Another one?

[drinkypoo]

What all is required to convert ac to dc? I thought all you needed was 4 resistors in the right arrangement.

4 diode's, and its pretty ineffecient/dirty way of doing it.

it isn't inefficient and it isn't dirty either. the only problem is one needs a huge cap.

Hey, look, I built a pedant cascade!

You didn't build that alone.

Hey, look, I helped to build a pedant cascade!

Re:Another one?

[Hognoxious]

You are Al Gore AICMFP.

Re:Another one?

[Misterfixit]

I have a 2012 Leaf. I purchased a package of adapters from one of the guys on the Leaf forum .. he makes some elegant and rather inexpensive short double-ended adapter cables which permit me to plug the charger cable supplied with the Leaf into anything including welding machine outlets, generators, dryers, stoves and hot water heater outlets. Also, another guy on the Forum modified the OEM cable unit which comes with the Leaf and which is 120VAC only to an auto-switching 120/220VAC box without any noticeable external changes. When the power goes out, I have a 3-fuel (gasoline, Propane, Natural Gas) generator which puts out 220VAC for charging. The only real hump to pass over is the Rapid Charging capability which uses 400 volt DC and a type of charging stand which requires 3-phase power. That will charge the leaf in 30 minutes or less and I have used the one at Nissan HQ here in TN many times. Where the whole EV concept is misunderstood is that folks want to hop in the Leaf and drive off from Nashville to San Diego. The Leaf and other EVs (not the hybrids like the Volt) are for around the town, 50 mile radius no fuss/no muss travel. Sure, I can plan a trip to Chattanooga from Nashville -- and have taken that trip -- but it requires me to stop 3 times at various Quick Chargers to do the 30 minute routine. I have 10,000 miles on my Leaf almost all of which is local driving. Not problems at all and yes, it will "get rubber" from a dead stop and do 0-60 in less time than it takes to tell you about it. However, I do a local commute and don't even look at a gas station any longer unless it is to stop and get a Bear Claw pastry for breakfast or buy 5-hour energy drinks for my all night sex sessions.

Re:Another one?

[fisted]

The diode drop is typically negligible, compared to the way larger input voltage

Re:Another one?

[Anonymous Coward]

I usually operate on a standard paradigm that there's no such thing as "negligible" waste. Eliminate waste everywhere you possibly can, and you will appear wiser and be richer than your competition. But then again, I used to study natural history, and that's rare in an engineer - most engineers just can't seem to resist installing "phantom loads" like clocks, remote controls, degaussers, etc. on everything they build. They are typically too focused on their task to recognize and deal with the reality of larger environments - right now there are literally millions of blinking red LED clocks across America that say 12:00 - their power consumption is "negligible" in theory, but in aggregate these useless wastes of power are tremendously economically and environmentally damaging.

Re:Another one?

[fisted]

Well, once you left your ivory tower you will realize there often is a waste cost trade-off. If i have to choose between a couple mW loss of power vs a couple $ on more sophisticated circuitry, guess what wins?

J1772

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously... they called it the "JIZZZ"?

Re:J1772

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't put your tongue on it.

Re:J1772

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think there's a JIZZZ pump in the world that would enable me to fill an entire car in just 20 minutes. 8 hours might be enough time, but I'd almost certainly die first from a combination of dehydration and chafing.

Re:J1772

[sweBers]

Thank God I'm not the only person who read it this way. The Internet has ruined me, but I'm not alone.

Hundreds?

[marcroelofs]

How can there be 100's of different plug varieties when there areonly 10's of different elctric cars yet. Also, how can plug-design speed up charge time 24 times?

Re:Hundreds?

[gfilion]

Also, how can plug-design speed up charge time 24 times?

More voltage, more amps?

Re:Hundreds?

[MightyYar]

Also, how can plug-design speed up charge time 24 times?

The standard redefines time to be 24x of SI time.

Re:Hundreds?

[Anonymous Coward]

http://xkcd.com/927/

Re:Hundreds?

[Anonymous Coward]

I imagine the plug looks like this

Re:Hundreds?

[a_n_d_e_r_s]

The speedup comes from the fact that the interface allows for higher amount of eletricity to flow into the cars batteries.

Cable and contacts need to be able to handle the higher voltage and ampare needed to fill the cars batteries with energy faster. The bigger the cable the more electrons can flow through it.

Re:Hundreds?

[Quiet_Desperation]

Wondered that myself. Even if you figure in all the little utility cars and carts out there... hundreds?

Re:Hundreds?

[MeepMeep]

How can there be 100's of different plug varieties when there areonly 10's of different elctric cars yet.

I think the 'hundreds of plug varieties' comment is hyperbole

Also, how can plug-design speed up charge time 24 times?

The plug design change added more pins (the DC ones) and those can be used to deliver more amps quickly

Re:Hundreds?

[necro81]

There aren't hundreds of different plug varieties. Have a closer look at the summary:

there are hundreds of different methods and plugs to charge a variety of different cars

You can get to hundreds if you multiply out the various permutations of physical connector, charge input voltage, charge input phases, charge output voltage, charge output AC or DC, charge rate, charger-car communications, and who controls the charging behavior. As you point out: because there are only tens of different electric car models out there, the number of actual charging system embodiments out of the total potential space is probably a much smaller number.

Re:Hundreds?

[necro81]

how can plug-design speed up charge time 24 times

Changing the plug design permits more amps at higher voltage. Their point of comparison is charging a vehicle overnight through a typical North American residential electrical circuit (120 Vac, single phase, 20 A per circuit). If one were to try pumping 100 amps at 500 Vdc through such a 3-prong 120-V plug or cable, it would simply melt.

Of course, the charger being able to supply such high power to a car is predicated on the charger having that kind of power available to it. You won't get charge times on the order of one hour from a typical residential installation - not unless you have your own substation.

Re:Hundreds?

[metrometro]

By allowing the car to switch between DC or AC current as the situation requires. DC requires more hardware on the charging unit, but allows much faster charging because the car doesn't have to manage heat from conversion.

Re:Hundreds?

[gr8_phk]

Of course, the charger being able to supply such high power to a car is predicated on the charger having that kind of power available to it. You won't get charge times on the order of one hour from a typical residential installation - not unless you have your own substation.

One could have a battery powered charger. It could charge at 6kW for much of the day and then dump that at a much higher rate into the car battery. It's not optimal, but it could provide fast charging of the car without increasing the peak power usage of the home.

Re:Hundreds?

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

How sad is it, that I know exactly which comic that is without having to goto* the link.

*Of course, I would never goto the link, as gotos are considered harmful.

Re:Hundreds?

[Lumpy]

I have 300 amp service at home. Figure a typical commercial car charging circuit is 200Amps at 240 volts that is 200AH or 48,000Watts charging per hour. the nissan Leaf is a 24Kwh battery pack. BUT you never discharge past 50% so it's in reality a 12KWh battery pack.

So their proposed 200Amp charging station will charge a Nissan Leaf in 15 minutes. the more typical 100Amp charger will charge it in 30 minutes.

no private substation needed. And its currently available.

Although most home installs are the smaller 40 Amp charging station which charge the car from empty in 1 hour 30 minutes. Very few people go for the 100 amp charging station as it requires being raped by a commercial electrician pretty hard. While the 40 amp unit can be installed by a residential electrician for less than $5500.00

Re:Hundreds?

[gr8_phk]

.By allowing the car to switch between DC or AC current as the situation requires. DC requires more hardware on the charging unit, but allows much faster charging because the car doesn't have to manage heat from conversion

Most car chargers convert the AC to higher voltage DC and then use high frequency AC through a small transformer and then back to the DC level of the battery. Even with all those conversions this can be done end-to-end at greater than 92 percent efficiency. The challenge is that there is a desire (requirement?) to have isolation between the car battery and the grid and transformers that can transfer that kind of power at 60Hz would be very large and heavy. You also have to contend with the voltage change of the battery as it charges, so no fixed ratios.

Power conversion is an interesting area with lots of active development.

Re:Hundreds?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you've played Knights of the Old republic 2, you'd know that GOTOs are downright genocidal if it is a faster way to reach their goal.

Re:Hundreds?

[Em Adespoton]

Also, how can plug-design speed up charge time 24 times?

More voltage, more amps?

...and the modification to the standard: a switch from AC to DC, meaning less energy lost to heat in the higher-speed transfers.

Re:Hundreds?

[Em Adespoton]

Also, how can plug-design speed up charge time 24 times?

More voltage, more amps?

...and the modification to the standard: a switch from AC to DC, meaning less energy lost to heat in the higher-speed transfers.

doh! s/a switch from AC to/an addition of/

Re:Hundreds?

[Gordonjcp]

You'd need a *lot* more volts and amps. I have a van, which has an 80 litre tank that takes roughly two minutes to fill. On that 80 litres I get around 950km range, or to translate into American units around 30mpg. Now, I'm hauling around roughly 800kWh of energy in that tank. Let's assume that the vehicle actually turns only 30% of that into motion - that gives us 320kWh worth of actual movement.

So if we assume that an electric car is 100% efficient, it would need 320kWh of batteries to travel 950km - and these would take a correspondingly large amount of power to charge. If you charge for ten hours, you'd need to be feeding in 32kW continuously. If you wanted to recharge as quickly as filling the diesel tank, you'd need 576kW available.

I for one do not welcome our .5MW charging connector overlords.

Re:Hundreds?

[Ron Bennett]

300 amps? Are you going by what your circuit breaker panel says? Most drops are 60 - 100 amps. And even if the drop wire can handle that power, the local transformer (on the pole or the green box on the ground) likely can't.

Furthermore, the utility, much like ISPs, over-provision - the average household is each expected to draw around 3 or so KW peak, not 20+ KW. Everyone using fast-chargers at home isn't feasible, and hence the push of slow-chargers, which are cheap, and the current grid can handle just fine.

Re:Hundreds?

[Anonymous Coward]

"While the 40 amp unit can be installed by a residential electrician for less than $5500.00"

So at my usage of gasoline rate (~$1,200) that is 4.58 years worth of gas money spent in a day...... I'd love an electric vehicle but not at that cost, even with the gas savings (~$360 per year in electricity for a car?) that's a lot of money up front. In the long run you might break even but there are no guarantees. If quick charging is desired it might be more practical to hit up some gas station to install a quick charger tied directly into a utility pole, maybe offer to split the cost with them (and see if any other EV owners are interested) if they share any profits.

Re:Hundreds?

[Anonymous Coward]

The transformer wouldn't be able to handle all houses drawing full load, however, it is against electrical code to install a transformer that cannot supply the highest breaker connected to it at full load. I would expect the average utility transformer to be able to supply 2 houses on the block it is supplying at full load before it gives up.

300 Amps isn't uncommon for new McMansions. Many get 400 A service. 100 Amps is considered the bare minimum nowadays, and to get as low as 60 A you have to have almost no major electrical appliances in the house, by electrical code. 200 Amps service is typically installed in the average sized (read: 1500 sq ft., not 3000 sq. ft.) home. Yes, this is all 240 Volt service, not 120.

Of course, if you have 200 A service, you won't be charging your car at 200 A, since you'd have to throw all the breakers except the main + car to do it.

You are right, though, it would be bad for the utility if they saw a bunch of car chargers being connected right when the cars get home. Utilities don't over-provision, that's bad (as in it damages the utility equipment). Rather, they work hard to ensure whatever they supply is used and that they don't supply extra. Hence why Microsoft was in trouble the other week.

Re:Hundreds?

[Anonymous Coward]

DC level 2 (the fastest thing in the standard) will charge a 25 kWh battery (Nissan Leaf or Ford Focus Electric) in 20 minutes. That's a few hundred volts DC at 200A. The range of a Nissan Leaf is somewhere between 50 and 140 miles, depending on conditions.

Nobody is going to use one of these electric vehicles to drive any distance - stopping for 20 minutes every hour to recharge it is absurd. There are two real use-cases for charging out of the home. For a commute vehicle, you drive to work and plug it in. Charging in a few hours is OK. You need the fast charge for trips into town for shopping etc.

Re:Hundreds?

[Sqr(twg)]

how can plug-design speed up charge time 24 times?

The on-board AC-to-DC converter is not very powerful (or it would be too heavy). If the charging station can deliver DC current at the voltage that the battery demands (which it can with the new standard), then charging speed is limited only by the battery, not the on-board electronics.

Re:Hundreds?

[Anonymous Coward]

$5,500?!

Yes, definitely less than that! My Tesla's 240V 100A charging station cost $1,150 to install and provides a rated 62 miles of range per hour of charging.

Re:Hundreds?

[Lumpy]

I am going by what I ordered and had installed by the power company. And I was told it is not odd, Many homes are actually getting 400 amp service, mostly McMansions.

Re:Hundreds?

[Lumpy]

You forget to add the $35,000 for the electric car as well.

A Nissan Leaf real cost is about $40,000.00

Or if you buy a Nissan Versa, the exact same car but with a gas engine... for $15,000.00 you have to drive it for 145,000 miles at $6.00 a gallon gas and assuming 35mpg.

Basically the leaf will actually be worth owning after you have owned it for 13 years and have had ZERO maintenance costs.

Re:Hundreds?

[Lumpy]

your charging station was free? I'm including the price of the charger.. nissan's approved one is $5000.00 and I know a guy that will install them for around $500 if it is close to the electrical panel.

Re:Hundreds?

[AK Marc]

. If you wanted to recharge as quickly as filling the diesel tank, you'd need 576kW available.

Not if you trickle charge the batteries over two days, with a reconditioning cycle. But then, we'd need battery swap setups, then you could fill up more range in less time than your diesel.

Re:Hundreds?

[mfwitten]

Electric car batteries are physically HUGE. Swapping batteries sounds reasonable only when you neglect reality.

Re:Hundreds?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to agree with the other AC, Utilities don't over-provision, at least with residential customers. I believe they do with heavy industrial installs (in a fashion), but even then they don't actually RUN their generators up to the point where they could run every transformer at 100%. The biggest concern I imagine with utilities and fast charging EV's would be a large number of consumers suddenly plugging them in at once, probably one of the reasons for the push in "smart grid" upgrades. Still it isn't a massive issue, if push came to shove they could simply offer consumers a monthly discount to have a timer placed on their charging station to only allow it to charge the vehicle between certain times. The chargers in a local area would be staggered so each of them got a few hours at full power and then dropped to a more manageable load (120V 10A). Most of this is moot though as most EV vehicle charging is best done overnight over hours and most users don't need quick charge capabilities regularly.

Re:Hundreds?

[rgbrenner]

swapping an electric car battery isn't possible in reality? Thanks for enlightening the world with your clearly superior intellectual abilities.

http://www.technologyreview.com/news/424587/israel-to-get-electric-car-battery-swap-stations/
http://www.npr.org/2012/08/21/159355676/dont-charge-that-electric-car-battery-just-change-it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xu9PST7oXls
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/05/better-place/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd0WPw3p2MQ
http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/13/better-place-unveils-battery-swap-station/

If only these people were as smart as you...

Re:Hundreds?

[Dorkmunder]

not sure what country\state you are in but in the USA the main charger recommended costs about $900 and usually you can get a $400-$500 rebate (they were free for a while when early in the Leaf rollout

Re:Hundreds?

[Lumpy]

They do "over provision". and yes I have taken a full 200 amp load draw for 1 hour on my service, that was on top of the regular house load. My voltage only dipped by .6 volts during that time.

Re:Hundreds?

[Lumpy]

Michigan. Quoting what I was quoted by the Nissan Dealership. I told them they throw it in for free or no deal. I ended up not buying the Leaf because it's just far too expensive to own and bought a Civic Hybrid for less than 1/2 the price.

Re:Hundreds?

[Spoke]

Or if you buy a Nissan Versa, the exact same car but with a gas engine...

The Versa and LEAF are nothing alike in terms of quality. While the LEAF is based on a highly modified version of the same chassis as the Versa, that's about it.

Basically the leaf will actually be worth owning after you have owned it for 13 years and have had ZERO maintenance costs.

You know, there are other reasons besides purely financial ones to buy an electric car...

Re:Hundreds?

[Spoke]

swapping an electric car battery isn't possible in reality? Thanks for enlightening the world with your clearly superior intellectual abilities.

If only these people were as smart as you...

I guess you hadn't heard - Better Place is basically done. It may have limited success for fleet applications (like taxis) where a 2 minute battery swap is critical, but for the mass market where no two cars are alike and neither are the battery packs, storing enough packs and the additional complexity of building and running a battery swap stations kill any chance of cost effectiveness.

For the price of one battery swap station, you could install a hundred quick charge stations.

Re:Hundreds?

[Algae_94]

Basically the leaf will actually be worth owning after you have owned it for 13 years and have had ZERO maintenance costs.

That would be zero maintenance costs above a typical Versa's maintenance costs.

You know, there are other reasons besides purely financial ones to buy an electric car...

Yes this is true, but the reality of things is that those other reasons won't get a lot of people to buy electric cars.

Re:Hundreds?

[Anonymous Coward]

More Fire? You can not Charge the Batteries any faster then Physics and Chemistry allow. A few Types of batteries can charge in 15 minutes. Most have a limit of 1 to 3 hours.

Re:Hundreds?

[AK Marc]

Your inability to think of an answer in 2 seconds doesn't make the problem hard, it just makes you dumb. The fact you are proud of your dumbness makes you an idiot.

Re:Hundreds?

[Anonymous Coward]

That would be zero maintenance costs above a typical Versa's maintenance costs.

Exactly. The Leaf has all of the usual car maintenance costs - oil changes, spark plugs, timing belt replacements, smog checks, mufflers, radiator, transmission fluid, etc. Plus you have to recalibrate the electric motor and carefully maintain the battery, all at high additional cost compared to the Versa. It's actually more expensive to maintain!

OH, WAIT. Back in reality-land, only scheduled maintenance is an annual battery check (free for the first 2 years) and tire rotation as needed. Maybe wiper blades too. That's equivalent to maintenance on any ICE car, how?

Re:Hundreds?

[mfwitten]

Nuh uh!

Re:Hundreds?

[Hognoxious]

for $15,000.00 you have to drive it for 145,000 miles at $6.00 a gallon gas and assuming 35mpg.

No I don't. I can buy one and just park it outside and look at it if I want to.

The great thing about standards

[Anonymous Coward]

The great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from.

Re:The great thing about standards

[Twinbee]

Exactly, I've been campaigning for cars to be charged via USB so I can charge my car from my laptop. They're so ubiquitous now that it's a waste to have yet another standard. BUT NO, now we get J1772 on top of USB, firewire, HDMI, and the thousand of other standards out there.

micro usb!

[bob zee]

too bad they couldn't make the microUSB work. :~)>

Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

In Europe we want micro-usb.

Re:Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

Please wait 6-10 weeks for charging.

Re:Europe

[Thud457]

fine, use macro-USB instead.

This is the SAE's fault

[Anonymous Coward]

They should have had the DC standard finished a decade ago so it was ready to go, at least in draft form, for the electric and hybrid cars that have come to market over the past few years.

CHAdeMO was an entirely reasonable bit of hole-plugging - the SAE hadn't done its job, so the Japanese manufacturers furnished themselves with a suitable substitute. Fair enough.

(I also predict that this topic will attract a heap of replies saying "the SAE plug is ugly", as if anyone should give a shit about what the plug looks like.)

Re:This is the SAE's fault

[Anonymous Coward]

They should have had the DC standard finished a decade ago so it was ready to go, at least in draft form, for the electric and hybrid cars that have come to market over the past few years.

CHAdeMO was an entirely reasonable bit of hole-plugging - the SAE hadn't done its job, so the Japanese manufacturers furnished themselves with a suitable substitute. Fair enough.

(I also predict that this topic will attract a heap of replies saying "the SAE plug is ugly", as if anyone should give a shit about what the plug looks like.)

It's not like the SAE hasn't been trying:

Current & Historical versions of this standard
Standard Date published Status
J1772_201210 2012-10-15 Revised
J1772_201202 2012-02-21 Revised
J1772_201001 2010-01-15 Revised
J1772_200111 2001-11-27 Revised

Society of Automotive Engineers hosts standard-writing committees, much like other professional societies.

Re:This is the SAE's fault

[Anonymous Coward]

Not ugly, just sucks compared to CHAdeMO. CHAdeMO appears to have an easy to use lever system to disengage the plug. J1772 has a button on the top. That might be great where the weather is nice, but in cold parts of the world, this will freeze and if it doesn't, will be hard to use with gloves.

Re:This is the SAE's fault

[robot256]

You say that, but in reality none of those previous revisions even attempted to provide a DC-fast-charging standard. That was the hole Chademo was trying to fill, and that's why it is kind of irritating that SAE even bothered to release the standard after waiting this long.

Re:This is the SAE's fault

[Anonymous Coward]

Those standards are AC-only.

Dutch

[AshFan]

I wonder why they don't just install power generating windmills on the roof of these cars.

Re:Dutch

[Antipater]

It's in the works, but the engineers responsible for it are busy making airplane windows openable.

Re:Dutch

[geekoid]

Becasue it would produce an abundance of Tulips.

Re:Dutch

[Anonymous Coward]

In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!

Can the car control the cable if the battery dies?

[chitselb]

'its ability to be safely used in all weather conditions, and the fact that its connections are never live unless commanded by the car during charging.'

Hundreds?

[Anonymous Coward]

In today's market there are hundreds of different methods and plugs to charge a variety of different cars

[citation needed]

This just in...

[Anonymous Coward]

The Apple has made a car plug that they think is better and is of their own proprietary design. People love it because they can plug it in wrong - even if they hold it wrong. In addition, it will be obsolete in 3 years and people will mimndlessly upgrade at a cost of $10000

Re:This just in...

[Anonymous Coward]

I should have said unless they hold it wrong

Chad who?

[Quiet_Desperation]

The J1772 beat out its Japanese competitor the CHAdeMO, used as an option on the Nissan Leaf."

I heard the fact that is was also a wise cracking robot with an obsessive fetish for "80081E5!" didn't help matters.

Three-phase

[benjfowler]

Any particular reason why they didn't support three-phase power supply?

Maximum current of 6.6kW seems a bit on the low side...

Re:Three-phase

[robot256]

The on-board charger is two-phase AC because that is what most of the electrical outlets and systems in this country use, and it is sufficient for normal charging, so it is worth having all the time. The fast-charging mode is DC because it basically connects directly to the ~400 volt battery instead of going through power converters in the car. It would be impractical to put power converters that large in the car itself (considering that many units are the size of an entire car), so they put the (super-expensive) converters at fixed locations and just hook the DC lines to the battery to charge. The three-phase commercial power drop then feeds the stationary converter.

Not sure where you are looking to find the 6.6kW number, but it is approximately the power delivered by a 240VAC/40A service and will charge the LEAF's 24kW battery in under 5 hours (but only on the 2013 model, the '11 and '12 models are limited to 3.3kW). Tesla, I believe, takes advantage of the J1772 spec for 240VAC/80A in some of their vehicles, in addition to DC fast charging in others.

Re:Three-phase

[Anonymous Coward]

Because three phase power, at least in North America, is generally only available to VERY large commercial clients and industrial areas. Most smaller strip malls, all houses, and parking lots aren't going to have three phase power nearby. It's also more complicated to wire, at least according to how the NEC and ESA license electricians. That means that a residential electrician would no longer be able to install J1772 in your driveway. You could get a Construction Maintenance electrician to do it (Industrial Electricians are industrial ONLY), however, they are harder to find and are going to charge incredible amounts of work to do a job they don't want to do (My guess? $200 per hour).

Re:Three-phase

[Bengie]

All houses? I remember asking my dad why some of the appliances had 4 prongs. Although, our breaker boxes tended to have something like 30+ 25amp breakers and every outlet had GFCI. Lighting, computer room, and entertainment room were on one phase and the garage, kitchen, laundry room, etc were on the other phase.

You could start a power-saw without the lights dimming.

Mind you, we were relatively poor. $60k/year for a 5 person house and my dad is a HUGE stickler for prices, so no commercial appliances.

Re:Three-phase

[CubicleZombie]

Hot, Hot, Neutral, and Ground. 4 prongs, 240v, 1 phase. Appliances that require both 240 and 120 use that, like an oven with a 240v element and 120v electronics.

Nobody has 3 phase in their home.

Re:Three-phase

[Anonymous Coward]

In Switzerland ALL houses have 230v 3-phase as standard. Same in Belgium and I suspect a few other European countries.

Re:Three-phase

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you don't understand what 3-phase power means.

Re:Three-phase

[Anonymous Coward]

240 Volts with neutral is actually 2 phase, specifically because it has a neutral. Of course, without it, it would still be 2 phase BUT you could supply the same appliance with 1 phase and get the exact same operation from it, since it would have no idea as to what ground potential really is.

As for the other guy, Switzerland operates on 76 volt power for most appliances? Must be hard as hell to buy anything! ;-)

Re:Three-phase

[AK Marc]

I thought all houses have 3-phase delivered to them. They are broken to 2-phase in the breaker panel and distributed around the house at 2-phase, but could just as easily run to a clothes dryer or charging station at the higher phase/voltage.

Re:Three-phase

[AK Marc]

In the US, 208 3-phase is standard to the house, with 120 single phase only within the house. I thought the rest of the world used 400V 3-phase to the house and 240V single-phase within the house. Similar to, but essentially double the US standard. Perhaps by "the rest of the world" I mean only UK and Australia, where I'm a little more familiar with their electric standards. I haven't done anything electrical related in EU outside UK.

Re:Three-phase

[Anonymous Coward]

"This country", well in EU we have IEC 60309 pretty ubiquitous. If the batteries can handle it, it can blast trough 16A per phase, that is 19.2kW.

Re:Three-phase

[bws111]

In the US, residential wiring is single-phase. There is only one hot primary wire on the pole transformer. On the secondary side, neutral is the center tap, with hots at either end (I guess maybe that is two-phase). So either side to neutral is 120V (single phase), and end to end is 240V (single phase).

Re:Three-phase

[CubicleZombie]

The lines at the street are 7500 volt 3 phase. The transformer pot is hooked up to one of those phases (go look if you don't believe me) with the center tap grounded, so your house is 240v single phase, with a neutral, for 2x 120v single phase. Nobody has 3 phase power to their house. Only a business with large electric motors would have 3 phase service.

Re:Three-phase

[Anonymous Coward]

In the US, 208 3 phase is standard to a lot of commercial buildings, and perhaps McMansions, but not to standard homes. US homes have a single 'split' phase 240 system, where the output of the power company's transformer is a center-tapped secondary, with the neutral center-tap tied to ground, giving us 240 volts, with each leg having 120 volts to ground/neutral.

Re:Three-phase

[Kirkoff]

Well... Data centers also tend to have 3-phase power coming to them.

Re:Three-phase

[Anonymous Coward]

No, most houses do not have 3-phase. Look inside your main panel. How many "hot" buses do you see? Likely two. Each "hot" is ~120 V with respect to neutral / ground, and ~240 V with respect to each other.

Re:Three-phase

[MiG82au]

Oh bullshit. I know of numerous hobbyists who get 3 phase installed on their properties so that they can use used machinery like welders, lathes and mills. They don't even need to be particularly powerful devices, unless 2 kW is your definition of large, because industrial equipment tends to use 3 phase by default. Unless all you're saying is that no residence comes with 3 phase by default, in which case I agree.

Re:Three-phase

[rcw-home]

In the US, 208 3-phase is standard to the house, with 120 single phase only within the house.

No, it is not. Split-phase is the norm.

Re:Three-phase

[CubicleZombie]

I run a 200 amp MIG welder off the 60 amp panel in my garage (1 phase, of course). It would handle a 250 amp welder with no problem. I've never even seen a 3 phase welder even in pro welding shops. There isn't even a plug for that.

A friend of mine looked into an industrial size mill, 3 phase, and decided on a smaller unit when he got the quote from the power company to run the electric service to his shop. This guy has a half million dollars of toys in that shop. For him to say "It costs too much", it must.

So I maintain that no residential property has 3 phase electric service. The kind of equipment that needs that kind of service wouldn't physically fit into anybody's garage or basement.

Re:Three-phase

[MiG82au]

Interesting. Perhaps it's more affordable in Australia (that's a first!), because the people I know of aren't rich, just a little obsessive ;)

I've been to factory equipment auctions and browsed online and you can get some really cheap used 3 phase machinery; as soon as something 1 phase shows up the price rockets. Businesses seem uninterested in the old equipment, but guys tinkering in their sheds love them.

AFAIK 20 A at 240 V is the most you can get from single phase in Aus, with 10 A at 240 V being a standard power point, so 3 phase is not so uncommon (even small food shops have it). Remember that it's not just a matter of high power, but dumb motors run nicer off 3 phase.

oblig.

[Anonymous Coward]

http://xkcd.com/927/

Re:oblig.

[SuperMooCow]

If you see "xkcd 927" and already know the cartoon behind it, you're a nerd.

P.S.: I didn't need to click on that link.

Two plugs in one?

[Anonymous Coward]

Great, now I have to lift a cable twice as heavy, and get no charging when I plug my AC car into a DC charging station (or vice-versa) even though both use the same official plug.

Re:Two plugs in one?

[robot256]

I hope this was a joke. All cars have a 2-phase AC charger on board, and the top portion of this connector will always work with a standard AC J1772 plug. Only some cars (and some very special stations) will have the additional circuitry for DC charging, and those will have the additional pins for the DC charging jack. DC charging is much higher power than AC charging (usually supplied by a capacitor bank), and with today's batteries it actually causes significant wear to charge them that fast. So until we get better batteries, DC fast charging is irrelevant to most consumers. It is a shame that policymakers are so obsessed with fast-charging before either the standards or the batteries are actually ready for prime time--that money could be better spent on more useful AC charging stations and public awareness.

Re:Two plugs in one?

[sexconker]

I hope this was a joke. All cars have a 2-phase AC charger on board, and the top portion of this connector will always work with a standard AC J1772 plug. Only some cars (and some very special stations) will have the additional circuitry for DC charging, and those will have the additional pins for the DC charging jack. DC charging is much higher power than AC charging (usually supplied by a capacitor bank), and with today's batteries it actually causes significant wear to charge them that fast. So until we get better batteries, DC fast charging is irrelevant to most consumers. It is a shame that policymakers are so obsessed with fast-charging before either the standards or the batteries are actually ready for prime time--that money could be better spent on more useful AC charging stations and public awareness.

Battery health isn't the issue here.
It is trivial for a charging station to limit DC output, and with the requirement that the charger listen to the car, it would be trivial for the car to regulate charging speed as well. You can set a default preference in your car (rapid charge or standard charge, just like toner saving modes on printers, or rapid charge options for iPod like devices), or a one time override at the charger or with an app on your phone. You could even specify how long you expect to be gone for and the car can figure out how to balance % charged and battery health based on your ETA.

The problem is as follows:

A car that can charge via AC has more complicated and more expensive internals.
A car that can charge via DC has simpler and cheaper internals.

If some cars in the future are sold as DC-only to save on cost, they will still have to support this AC/DC combo plug, which is ugly, heavy, and thicker than my cock during Wheel of Fortune. The end result will be charging stations that support both AC and DC, most homes supporting AC, few homes supporting DC, and cars supporting both even though a lot of money could be saved if we transitioned to DC-only cars and DC-capable stations (including stations in homes).

Re:Two plugs in one?

[robot256]

Your argument is nonsensical. Under no consumer-relevant circumstances does off-boarding the AC charger make any sense, either operationally or financially, at either the micro or macro level. Unless your market is the ~500 off-grid DC-power solar cabin owners in the country (and good luck selling them a car with less than 200 mile range), every single customer will need to charge from AC at some point--at their own house. Now everyone has paid for an AC-to-DC charger anyways even though you left it out of the car to "save cost", but they can only charge at their house so your vehicle is far less useful than your competitors with on-board charging. Good luck keeping that model in production for more than a year, or even staying in business.

Come back in 30 years and if, by some strange twist of fate, we all have 400-volt DC power in our homes, or if even "cheap" cars have 500 mile range and only charge once a week, you can laugh at our silly connector then.

Re:Two plugs in one?

[olden]

Er, no, you're making things up here. The SAE only claims that the receptable on the car can be made to accept existing J1772 connectors, not the other way around. On all recent plug-ins and EVs I've seen, only the Nissan Leaf (ironically enough) might have enough clearance around its J1772 receptacle to accept this new proposed plug. Chevy Volt, Mitsubishi i-MiEV, Prius plug-in, Ford focus... forget it.
(and to clarify, the charger all those have on-board is single-phase AC, not "2-phase")

Regarding the reality of DC fast-charging: first, it's here today (despite the SAE, not because of it) and it works very well. And yes, cables are thick and heavy, but certainly not more than a gas pump tube and nozzle.

Multiple automakers (Nissan, Mitsubishi, Subaru, Peugeot..) and charging equipment vendors (Eaton, Fuji, AeroViromnent, Efacec, Andromeda etc etc) already implemented another, existing standard, CHAdeMO, starting years ago. (none of them use capacitor banks btw, just a regular commercial electrical circuit).
The batteries in tens of thousands of EVs already on the road handle fast-charging just fine, thank you. Not just at fast-charging stations but also every time the vehicle slows down btw (regenerative braking happily pumps tens of kW back into the battery).

Second: unlike you I think that DC fast charging is critically important for wider EV adoption.

The two biggest hurdles for EVs today in the market are initial cost and limited range.
Batteries will remain pricey for the foreseeable future, so cheaper EVs will continue to come with relatively modest packs (say 16 to 30kW*h), and therefore only 50 to 120 miles range. Extending this range by recharging is only practical if it's quick enough, ie counted in minutes and not hours like with traditional AC charging stations -- I really don't mind stopping 15~30 minutes on an occasional 150 miles trip, in exchange for that lifetime 80%+ discount on "gas", and I could see such compromise being totally acceptable to a lot of people.
Now those 50kW+ chargers are big heavy expensive beasts, so keeping them outside the car (hence DC at the connector), usable by more than one vehicle, makes complete sense.

So yep, DC fast-charging is a very practical and cost-effective way to lift the range constraints otherwise inherent to more affordable EVs.

Freedom and $$ -- you were calling this 'irrelevant to most'?

Re:Two plugs in one?

[robot256]

My apologies for getting single-phase wrong. I'm an engineer--I should know better. Are you an EV owner? I am not, but I get most of my information from the crowd at the Washington DC Electric Vehicle Association (EVADC). We are a little bitter about fast-charging because there is virtually no fast-charging infrastructure on the mid-Atlantic coast, and we heard some dealers were going to install some *inside the show rooms*. What a waste.

On the new J1772 plug, what exactly are you complaining about? That you can't plug a DC charger into a car that doesn't have a DC charging port? Given their relative cost, there is no reason to occupy a DC charger when you are only using the AC charging function, so any logical DC charger will not even connect those pins. Any installation with a DC fast charger will also have several AC chargers, since they are order(s) of magnitude cheaper to install.

The two biggest hurdles to EV adoption are the perception of high initial cost and limited range. If you compare a Nissan LEAF or a Chevy Volt to a gas model with the same dashboard features and driving performance, you will find the price difference is much smaller than it first seems if you only compare them to base model gas cars. (Never mind that the 5 year TCO for a $35k LEAF is the same as an $18k Corolla, after fuel and maintenance savings.) As for range, precise numbers vary from source to source but the consensus is that approximately 75% of all American commuters drive less than 40 miles per day. Correlate that with the number of multi-car households who can use a different vehicle for long trips, and you have a large, untapped pool of potential EV owners who could make the most of today's technology without needing fast-charging at all.

DC fast-charging is only "practical and cost-effective" when there are a significant number of people needing to use it, and can easily be rendered useless by improper planning or standards wars. While I don't deny that there is a chicken-and-egg problem here, it doesn't make sense to get hung up on fast chargers for occasional trips while there remain so many holes in the basic, day-to-day infrastructure needed to make EVs practical. I certainly don't want to discourage any investment in the sector, but I have to assert that public money would be better spent promoting EVs for urban commuting *now* so that we can gain more experience to apply when building infrastructure down the road. Most important are incentives for apartment buildings to install charging stations in their garages, since today's EVs are so much better suited to urban living than suburban homes (which, ironically, are the only place drivers can install their own chargers).

So I don't deny your argument, I just want to make sure we don't get ahead of ourselves. While a robust fast-charging network would be awesome for those who need it, there are not enough players at the table yet for municipal governments to get it right and we are still far from the critical mass where such a system would be considered a good private investment. It is counterproductive to parrot the line that lack of infrastructure is holding back EV sales. EVs are practical now for a growing portion of the population, even if they don't meet your particular needs at the moment.

Re:Can the car control the cable if the battery di

[Smidge204]

Electric cars have at least two batteries: One main battery for motion (the traction battery) which is the one everyone focuses on, and a traditional 12-volt lead-acid car battery that operates all the normal 12-volt lights and accessories that modern cars are fitted with. If the main traction battery is completely dead - which would be an extreme failure case but let's say it did - the charger controls are all fed from the 12V system so at worst you'd need a quick zap from a set of jumper cables to get things going.
=Smidge=

And on the same day...

[wonkey_monkey]

...the guy who designed the battery now used in hybrid cars has died. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20004190

Re:And on the same day...

[geekoid]

Shocking.

I wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

If they have any networking, or are capable of other communication aside from charging. Would make sense, the car could provide diagnostic information or, many many other uses.

Re:I wonder

[robot256]

The basic AC connector lets the car provide basic information like "ready to charge" and "charging error" to the charging station. I believe the new standard also allows for data-over-powerline communication, so the car can talk directly to the charger and the smart grid. Can't wait to see what the security holes are in that arrangement.

Re:I wonder

[AK Marc]

They should have used 60 GHz bluetooth 5.0 for charging communication, with NFC as well for paying for the charge from public stations. That'd be fun.

Let's not rush into this

[Anonymous Coward]

I want to hear what the Zambian Automotive Society and the Sudanese Automotive Journal have to say about this first ...

GM had a better design

[Lumpy]

the EV1 had a charging paddle that was an inductive connection. safe to use under water.

Instead we get a version that means a 100% dead car = a trip tot he mechanic as it cant "command" the connection to start charging.

Re:GM had a better design

[tgd]

the EV1 had a charging paddle that was an inductive connection. safe to use under water.

Instead we get a version that means a 100% dead car = a trip tot he mechanic as it cant "command" the connection to start charging.

I don't think any of the EVs currently shipping will let their charge get that low, but even if that happened you just have to jump the 12v system -- like any other car with a dead battery. (Even modern standards, generally, can't be push-started anymore because the alternator can't generate enough power to get the ECU booted)

GM's volt, for example, won't let the vehicle discharge the 12v system enough to keep the charger from working.

Re:GM had a better design

[gr8_phk]

Instead we get a version that means a 100% dead car = a trip tot he mechanic as it cant "command" the connection to start charging.

Yeah I noticed that. But you can always use a 12V charger or jump-start to get the low voltage systems up and running enough to receive the command. A hassle, but not nearly as bad as towing.

Re:GM had a better design

[Lumpy]

Incorrect. I recently push started a 2013 Honda Civic Si. battery was not dead, it was missing. GM cars will not because the Delco alternator is designed to not work without a battery. it requires a battery voltage to excite the coils to create electricity. But many japanese alternators dont have that flaw.

Re:GM had a better design

[tgd]

Incorrect. I recently push started a 2013 Honda Civic Si. battery was not dead, it was missing. GM cars will not because the Delco alternator is designed to not work without a battery. it requires a battery voltage to excite the coils to create electricity. But many japanese alternators dont have that flaw.

Yes, because one data point invalidates the statement that "most" can't. But we're all proud of your ability to push start the Civic.

Re:GM had a better design

[csnydermvpsoft]

Yes, because one data point invalidates the statement that "most" can't. But we're all proud of your ability to push start the Civic.

It doesn't invalidate your statement, but an anecdote does hold more weight than an assertion with no references given.

I've push-started my Civic (2009 LX) as well, when I've been parked on a hill and wanted to do it for fun. When I realized that I might be damaging something, I stopped the practice, but it worked fine.

That's two anecdotes now - doesn't that count as data? :-)

Re:GM had a better design

[PPH]

The charging paddle (and other oddball connectors) were intended to provide a 'unique' connector for charging EVs. This was to provide a means (when regulations were put in place) to charge road taxes for the electricity/fuel/whatever.

The day will come when regs will disallow the use of a simple NEMA 5-15P connection, even for 'emergency' charging. Just so you won't bypass the tax man.

Re:GM had a better design

[tgd]

Yes, because one data point invalidates the statement that "most" can't. But we're all proud of your ability to push start the Civic.

It doesn't invalidate your statement, but an anecdote does hold more weight than an assertion with no references given.

I've push-started my Civic (2009 LX) as well, when I've been parked on a hill and wanted to do it for fun. When I realized that I might be damaging something, I stopped the practice, but it worked fine.

That's two anecdotes now - doesn't that count as data? :-)

Well, strictly speaking, since they're both Civics... its data, but not really useful data.

I'm not going to go waving around my CV on here, but from direct first hand experience, I can tell you that the majority of cars today can't get stable enough voltage out of the alternator for the ECU to come up and actually get the engine started from a truly dead battery unless you can really get the car moving. When the clutch comes out, the engine slows too quickly and all the electronics doesn't get time to get powered up. (And its worse on cars with immobilzer type technology, because that also needs to power up.) Can it work with some cars? Sure. A car with a low enough compression engine that you can keep pushing it once the clutch is out would help, as an example.

But, in either case, the point of the thread is that the actual problem the original poster was talking about largely doesn't exist. The cars with onboard chargers manage both the high voltage and 12v systems and won't let the 12v system drain enough to prevent the charger from powering up. And even if it was dead, it'd be no different than every automatic and the majority of standards -- you need to jump it. You never need to tow it to a dealer, unless you're the kind of person who would tow a car with a dead battery to the dealer. The original poster was completely wrong on that point.

Re:GM had a better design

[geekoid]

ore likely, the tax will be shifted to electricity in general. A 1%* tax on you electricity for roads et al.

*whatever.

Re:GM had a better design

[Anonymous Coward]

No, because the plural of 'anecdote' is 'anecdotes', not 'data'.

Re:GM had a better design

[Bob the Super Hamste]

I think I might have to park at the top of the hill by my house, disconnect my Jeep's battery and see if I can pop start it. It does have an ECU but that thing is so simple it might actually work.

Re:GM had a better design

[Revotron]

safe to use under water.

I don't know about you, but if my electric vehicle was fully submersed in water, I wouldn't worry that much about whether the batteries are fully charged or not.

Re:GM had a better design

[csnydermvpsoft]

I'll accept that you probably know more about it than I do. And, come to think of it, my Civic's battery was completely fine, so it doesn't really factor into the discussion anyways.

I agree with your last paragraph, with one caveat: If your EV's battery is drained to the point that it can't power the computer, your battery bank is probably toast - those batteries don't like to be discharged that much. You can get the car going again, but your range will be significantly reduced.

Re:GM had a better design

[PPH]

Doubtful. We have had a principle of users paying for roads in place since nearly the inception of the automobile. Asking non-drivers to pay for those who drive is politically unacceptable. It also opens up the problem of restricting some people (incompetent drivers) from using the roadways. Once they have paid, they can argue that they have a right to use them. Of course, I'm not talking about keeping pedestrians off the sidewalks. But we need to protect our (seldom used) ability to tell some people that they just aren't cutting it behind the wheel.

Re:GM had a better design

[digitalsolo]

A GM Delco DR44 alternator will produce 13.6 volts with no battery connected, I have one in one of my cars. The GTO (2004-2006) also used a self exciting regulator.

Re:GM had a better design

[bigtrike]

In the US at least, gas taxes aren't nearly high enough to pay for road construction and maintenance. Cheap roads are already an entitlement.

Re:GM had a better design

[AK Marc]

There is a theoretical possibility of explosion charging a conductive system after coming in out of the rain. Some water in just the wrong spots, and you complete a circuit that causes problems. That theoretical possibility is eliminated with inductive charging. The "underwater" was given as an extreme example, not the expected case. If your car is fully submerged, I'd expect it would not be safe to use fully submerged. The electrical system being charged would still be able to discharge and has ample conductive points to cause issues.

Re:GM had a better design

[Anonymous Coward]

The charging paddle (and other oddball connectors) were intended to provide a 'unique' connector for charging EVs. This was to provide a means (when regulations were put in place) to charge road taxes for the electricity/fuel/whatever.

You're fucked in the head.

The day will come when regs will disallow the use of a simple NEMA 5-15P connection, even for 'emergency' charging. Just so you won't bypass the tax man.

Connectors are not one-size-fits-all. There are some rather obvious reasons to standardize on something other than NEMA 5-15P here. Performance (charge time) and safety top the list. We only use NEMA 5-15P in the US (and only for low current appliances at that) because that's what we've always used. It's not even a particularly good connector there, so why you feel the need to invent a "THEY'RE COMIN' TO TAX US" reason to explain standardization on something else is beyond me.

(P.S. I missed the part where this new connector standard mandates inclusion of a robotic arm to fish your wallet out of your pocket, grab some money, stuff it in an envelope, and mail it to the IRS.)

Re:Can the car control the cable if the battery di

[Lumpy]

None that I have ever worked on did that. they just has a 12V power supply that ran off the main 48V or 96V battery bank.

Incorporates previous designs

[dlenmn]

From TFA:

[The New standard is] based on the 2009 J1772, which had only an AC charging plug. The current version includes a DC plug underneath the AC plug, which means that not only are both options available, but cars with the older J1772 couplings, such as the 2012 Nissan Leaf and 2013 Chevrolet Volt, can still use the new plug.

Re:Incorporates previous designs

[TheGratefulNet]

ah, so its a usb3 plug in disguise, then?

(notfullyserious.jpg)

Re:Incorporates previous designs

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the larger SAE plug will NOT fit in some cars with the conventional J1772 connector due to a lack of clearance around the socket. So, it is not correct to say that it is entirely backward compatible...

Re:Incorporates previous designs

[cayenne8]

Actually, the larger SAE plug will NOT fit in some cars with the conventional J1772 connector due to a lack of clearance around the socket. So, it is not correct to say that it is entirely backward compatible...

I'm sure someone will come up with and sell and adapter as needed.

We have them for cell phones as they change....why not for charging cars too?

Wait...maybe I should patent that.....

Re:Incorporates previous designs

[Firehed]

An extension cord? Something tells me that's been done before.

Re:Incorporates previous designs

[Voyager529]

An extension cord? Something tells me that's been done before.

Of course. But this is an extension cord FOR A MOBILE DEVICE, with ROUNDED CORNERS, sold ON THE INTERNET! How could the patent office turn me down?

Re:Incorporates previous designs

[nschubach]

... does this device utilize a computer?

Re:Incorporates previous designs

[DickBreath]

It may be just an extension cord, but if you suffix it with ". . . on a car", then it becomes a new invention.

Hey it worked for Apple to patent things already patented by adding " . . . on an iPhone".

Re:Incorporates previous designs

[AK Marc]

Even if the coupling is standard, the two electrical standards, as defined in the Wiki page, are US-only. How did this become a world standard on US-only electrical specifications? Note they don't define the Hz, just the V, and the V are 120V single phase (US only) and 240V (world standard) 3-phase (only the US uses 3-phase for 240V, the rest of the world is single phase at 240V, their 3-phase is 400V or so). So the "international" SAE (was US-centric, when I was a member) made a standard that was incompatible with other standards and doesn't even work in most countries outside the US? Or did I miss something?

Re:Incorporates previous designs

[Anonymous Coward]

>120V single phase (US only)

For definitions of US that include:

Aruba, Bahamas, Barbados, Bermuda, Bolivia, Belgium, Belize, Brazil, Canada, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Guatemala, Indonesia, Italy, Jamaica, Japan (sort of), Korea, Luxembourg, Mexico, Peru, Philippines, Portugal, Puerto Rico, Spain, Tahiti, Taiwan, Turkey, and the Virgin Islands.

Man, the US sure conquered at lot of countries all of a sudden! Or did I miss something?

>only the US uses 3-phase for 240V

Dafuq are you talking about? The US does not offer 3-phase 240 Volts and will NEVER offer it. Are you talking about the fact there's a neutral? 3-phase isn't about the number of wires, it's about degrees of phase difference (hence 3-phase, not 3-wire). Heck, there are 4-wire 3-phase systems (Wye).

There is so much electrical misinformation in this thread I am starting to see why it's illegal to wire up your own home in some places.

Re:Incorporates previous designs

[cusco]

Well, I know for a fact that Peru, Bolivia, Spain, Ecuador and Italy are all 240 volt, having traveled there, and I am quite sure that almost all of the rest of your list is as well. Oh, well, I guess if you're not bright enough to figure out how to register for a SlashDot account I shouldn't expect much.

Re:Incorporates previous designs

[Spoke]

The grandparent is right. These J1772 DC plugs will not be useful on a car which only implements J1772 AC charging. This new big bulky plug is only good for high speed DC quick charging. The standard J1772 plug is good for 120-240VAC and up to 80A charging.

The primarily reason for this abomination of a plug is the reduced foot print so that 2 completely separate sockets (see Nissan LEAF and Mitsubishi iMiEV) are required.

Re:Incorporates previous designs

[BasilBrush]

Surely what's being announced here is mentioned on the Wiki page in the Combined Charging System, and covers negotiable power supply from 200-450V.

The car gets charged with the best rate that the car and the charger negotiate between them.

Re:Incorporates previous designs

[zenith1111]

For definitions of US that include:

Aruba, Bahamas, Barbados, Bermuda, Bolivia, Belgium, Belize, Brazil, Canada, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Guatemala, Indonesia, Italy, Jamaica, Japan (sort of), Korea, Luxembourg, Mexico, Peru, Philippines, Portugal, Puerto Rico, Spain, Tahiti, Taiwan, Turkey, and the Virgin Islands.

All countries here in Europe use 230V +-6% so, unless I misunderstood what you are saying, that list is not accurate.

Re:Incorporates previous designs

[PrimaryConsult]

Bahamas, Canada, Japan, Mexico and Puerto Rico are correct from the original list.

This list here has ~45 entries using "US-style" power with ~230 entries using other stuff (not necessarily European either, one primarily used in Australia and China is fairly popular as well).

Re:Incorporates previous designs

[cusco]

Except that Puerto Rico is is not a country . . .

Re:Incorporates previous designs

[slick7]

From TFA:

[The New standard is] based on the 2009 J1772, which had only an AC charging plug. The current version includes a DC plug underneath the AC plug, which means that not only are both options available, but cars with the older J1772 couplings, such as the 2012 Nissan Leaf and 2013 Chevrolet Volt, can still use the new plug.

Yada yada yada. Incorporates previous designs, ptui. Let's incorporate a new design, one that take electricity right out of the air. We swim in magnetic fields. Your "previous" designs ultimately rely on coal, nuclear, natural gas or plain old oil. Money for rich bastards who have more dollars than sense. Resonant coupling is where it's at, oh yeah, the only costs incurred would be in the device and power would be basically free. But we all know the true parasites of society would not allow this

Re:Incorporates previous designs

[sumdumass]

Not really, it is more like an extension cord for the HDMI standard.

Oh wait, you are probably right. Maybe file for another patent with the terms "on a phone" to ensure you have the market locked up.

Re:Incorporates previous designs

[sumdumass]

3 phase 240 is offered in the US mostly for commercial purposes. A lot of commercial grade restaurant equipment is specifically designed to use 3 phase 240v power. Most industrial machines use 3 phase 208v or 240v or greater power.

I have heard of apartment buildings that have 3 phase 240 coming in, but it is branched to a metered 120v going to the apartments except for the heating and cooling systems. At least that is the explanation I got when I inquired to how and or why a friend's landlord would pay his heating and cooling, but not the rest of the electrical use. The efficiencies qualified the unit for some sort of tax programs and on 3 phase power, the extra cost was relatively low to him (pass on in the rent payment which was still competitive with other apartments in the area).

Re:Incorporates previous designs

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, Belgium does not exist. GP fell for it.

Re:Incorporates previous designs

[DarwinSurvivor]

"on an iPhone" would be a pointless patent as they are the only ones selling iPhones. Now "on a phone" would be much more evil!

Re:Can the car control the cable if the battery di

[Vicarius]

For some cars, like Tesla, if your main battery dies (i.e. drains itself), you will have to buy a new $40,000 battery that is not covered by warranty.

Re:Can the car control the cable if the battery di

[Anonymous Coward]

At 48 or 96V those aren't real cars anyway. The term you're looking for is Kart...go-Kart, Golf-Kart, etc.

warning

[Anonymous Coward]

Do not use your mouth when siphoning fuel from an electric car. The back-wash is much, much nastier than gasoline.

Re:warning

[sexconker]

Do not use your mouth when siphoning fuel from an electric car. The back-wash is much, much nastier than gasoline.

That's not what the word backwash means.
And it's not the gasoline that's bad, it's the fumes. You should be able to easily siphon fuel without ever getting liquid gasoline in your mouth. It's no different than avoiding nasty fish water when draining a fish tank with a hose.

Re:warning

[Anonymous Coward]

WHOOSH!

Re:Can the car control the cable if the battery di

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcRs-4QRaVc

yup not a real car.... get a load of the lifting forks on that thing...

in reality MOST electric cars are in the 96 volt range... GM and Nissan are new to the game that others have been playing for decades.

Ease of plugging?

[JSBiff]

Looking at that plug, I have to wonder how easy it will be to plug and unplug.

Re:Ease of plugging?

[Anonymous Coward]

It'll be fine. Look at the outer shell, it's a cylinder with a large key. You'll have to get the key lined up to get it to go in at all, and once you do it properly aligns all the pins. The pins and sockets themselves look like low insertion force designs. (They pretty much have to be in order to have a 10,000 insertion cycle lifespan.)

Re:Can the car control the cable if the battery di

[Smidge204]

You presumably only work on conversions or kit cars, then? I know of no commercially produced EVs that use less than 300V nominal pack voltage.

=Smidge=

oblig xkcd

[wjh31]

http://xkcd.com/927/

Standard for _batteries_ !!!

[Anonymous Coward]

There definately should be a standard for swappable batteries.

Swapping could be done in minutes, station could charge overnight.
Batteries could be leased, decreasing the up front cost of car. The
charging station could handle the maintainance of batteries.

I can see the future!

[poofmeisterp]

Year 2024...

Gasoline: $21.50/gal
Ethanol: $29.45/gal
Electricity for quick 20-min charge: $20/min

Yeah.

Re:I can see the future!

[AK Marc]

PV panels for home charging, $0.01 per (peak) Watt.

Capacitive "battery" for storing a day's solar into a 20 minute charge: $50

Re:I can see the future!

[poofmeisterp]

Maybe now... Future profits on alternatives must outweigh true value. That's how it goes.

Re:I can see the future!

[AK Marc]

Huh? I was talking about prices in 2024, same as you. Going off-grid will cost under $1000 for an average home, even with two EVs and labor included. Though the cost of the land to put the PVs on will be millions.

Misread the title

[DreddUK]

Weird, I read the title as 'Standard For Electric Chair Announced'. I was actually surprised that they didn't already have one......

What we need are electric roads

[Anonymous Coward]

What we need are electric roads

more like 20-25%.

[Anonymous Coward]

And if you're american, less than that for your petrol engine.

Also remember that you have to brake your car every now and then. Your petrol car doesn't reverse the combustion and turn that motion into petrol for your car, but the electric one will.

Your electric car needs about 0.2-0.3kwh per km. That means 950/5=190kwh.

And why do you want to fill as fast as a car from empty to full anyway? How often do you go more than 1000km in one go???

Re:more like 20-25%.

[Gordonjcp]

How often do you go more than 1000km in one go???

Depending on what I'm doing, two or three times a week.

Re:more like 20-25%.

[Anonymous Coward]

One word for ya then: diesel

Re:Can the car control the cable if the battery di

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that because when the battery is drained completely, it is unable to power the electronics needed to charge it... or because when stored in a drained state for a while it messes with the chemistry of the batteries, and the thing is broken due to what is poor maintenance?

Corollary

[ThatsNotPudding]

The great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from.

The real thing about standards is that the biggest corporate swinging dicks dominate the committees and have full control.

Re:Corollary

[Medievalist]

The great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from.

The real thing about standards is that the biggest corporate swinging dicks dominate the committees and have full control.

In the case of electric cars, it's worse than that. The big corporate dicks at GM actually did everything they could to kill the Magne Charge system after they repossessed all the EV-1s and ran them through the crusher.

Yah, blogger is lying.

[Anonymous Coward]

You may have to buy a new battery and that may cost forty grand (though you'd have to go to a twat to buy it for that much), but you get your insurance to pay for it and you get the price of the dead battery back.

Data is hacked on

[firewrought]

It looks like they didn't consider the need for a data connection until just recently (in the 2012 standard, according to Wikipedia). That seems like a MAJOR failure of imagination, as a data connection would be useful for time-of-use charging, mileage-based taxes, firmware updates, parking fares, and POS services [e.g., browse the web or watch a complimentary sitcom while you wait the 20 min. for your car to recharge]. Heck, it would be worth it for automated billing alone... just "park & plug" while doing your groceries... no need to fiddle with swiping your card at a grimey public terminal.

It looks like they are now planning to hack it on (send signals over the powerline), but you'd think that would have drawbacks in terms of extra equipment, lower data rates, and perhaps functionality if the charging pins must be energized. IAMNAEE (I am not an electrical engineer) though... anyone with an EE degree care to comment on this apparent gap in the standard?

Re:Data is hacked on

[AK Marc]

There are no theoretical limits to speeds on data over powered ports. It just increases cost with the isolators and such.

Why DC Charging

[Anonymous Coward]

Every EV has an powerfull AC-DC inverter built in for charging the battery during braking. The motor is normally a 3 phase AC motor, so i really don't get it why they can't just use the existing hardware for 100kW or so AC charging.

The ugliest thing that I've ever seen

[holophrastic]

...and it just looks complicated. I have zero interest in putting that onto my car. But I'm also not interested in attaching a communication protocol to my car. Pouring fuel into a tank can't crash my stereo, and can't disable my power-steering. It either goes in or it doesn't. Why can't charging my battery be the same way. Power flows or it doesn't. A fuse in my car solves the obvious overload scenario. And that's it.

Re:The ugliest thing that I've ever seen

[bigtrike]

What if you drop the end of it into a puddle that you're standing in?

Re:The ugliest thing that I've ever seen

[holophrastic]

Ok, I'm not thinking two bare wires. And I'd be cool with a sheath that opens and closes while mating -- not totally unheard of.

Re:The ugliest thing that I've ever seen

[metrometro]

> I'd be cool with a sheath that opens and closes while mating

Filthiest battery charger post ever.

Re:The ugliest thing that I've ever seen

[holophrastic]

You know, I thought about that too. But really, talking about a hose that fits into a gasket works for gasolene. But once we're talking about electricity, it's a world of male jacks mating with female sockets. If general protection is required, a foreskin would certainly be the ideal solution.

Don't think that's really true

[Anonymous Coward]

Tax revenues provide much more support to road construction and maintenance than tolls, and this is the first time I've seen it suggested that incompetent drivers will demand to drive because their tax money paid for the road. I can't see courts buying that argument.

Re:Don't think that's really true

[PPH]

incompetent drivers will demand to drive because their tax money paid for the road. I can't see courts buying that argument.

They do already. Try taking grandpa's license away before he runs over the kids at the bus stop. Cops (and judges) are terrified of the AARP coming down on them for discriminating against the elderly.

Re:Can the car control the cable if the battery di

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for the FUD, Vicarius!

The 85 kWh Tesla S has more than 7,000 batteries, not one "main battery" as your claim. Also, the batteries are covered by an 8 year unlimited miles warranty for the 85 kWh version, 8 years and 125,000 miles for the 60 kWh, and 8 years and 100,000 miles for the base 40 kWh range.

Thanks for playing though!

Re:Can the car control the cable if the battery di

[Tugrik]

Don't forget: on the Leaf, not only does it have the 12v battery, but it has a small solar cell (on the SV model) located on the rear spoiler. So if even the 12v 'control' battery was dead, just leave it in the sun for a bit. Then it'd have enough juice to control the main charger and activate it once plugged in.

Standards rule OK

[Anonymous Coward]

Obligatory Jam:

Oh we make the standards and we make the rules
And if you don't abide by them you must be a fool
We have the power to control the whole land
You never must question our motives or plans

Too bad..

[formfeed]

I was hoping for two metal tracks down the middle of the road.

Re:Can the car control the cable if the battery di

[AK Marc]

There are at least 5 known cases, from your links, but nobody has spoken with anyone that has had this happen to them.

though from an EV perspective, it sounds like a case where a person drains the oil from their car and drives it until it dies, then complains that it's broken. Maybe that's why none of the supposed 5 have come forward, they know they were wrong, and not Tesla.

Re:Can the car control the cable if the battery di

[Anonymous Coward]

For some cars, like Tesla, if your main battery dies (i.e. drains itself), you will have to buy a new $40,000 battery that is not covered by warranty.

And does the new Tesla Model S use the same battery? I find it unlikely due to the price.

Two Words

[Kaenneth]

Swappable Batteries.

Great Opportunity

[anorlunda]

So, cars can charge with DC much faster than with AC. What a great opportunity to innovate.

Solar panels generate DC, and it adds a lot to the cost and complexity to convert it to AC. How about co-locating car charging stations at solar power farms, and skipping the DC-AC conversion equipment. It is a win-win.

Many wind generators also have DC generators and convert to AC. Same opportunity there.

An AC motor - DC generator set should cost much less than $5000. It doesn't take a lot of horsepower to make lots of low voltage DC amps.

Con-Ed in New York City used to sell electric power in DC as well as AC. I think they dropped the DC in the 1980s (a NYC Slashdotter can probably set me strait there. ). Might there be other localities in this world where the utility still offers DC for sale?

Re:Great Opportunity

[Spoke]

How about co-locating car charging stations at solar power farms, and skipping the DC-AC conversion equipment. It is a win-win.

It's not that simple. Tesla will be installing their own DC quick charge stations with solar PV carports, but the solar will be grid tied and completely independent from the Superchargers (what Tesla is calling their DC quick charger).

Solar PV inverters are around 95% efficient at converting DC to AC - a well designed AC to DC converter is about the same which means you do lose about 10% in the conversion process. But then it means that any time the PV system is generating more than is being used to charge cars, the energy goes straight to the grid without having to worry about regulating energy flow from the array and to the grid as necessary.

Re:Great Opportunity

[madbrain]

Solar panels generate DC, and it adds a lot to the cost and complexity to convert it to AC. How about co-locating car charging stations at solar power farms, and skipping the DC-AC conversion equipment. It is a win-win.

Unfortunately, the sun doesn't shine 24/7, so this wouldn't be practical. Such a station would only really work around noon on sunny days.
If you don't tie the system to the grid, you would have to store the energy from solar into local batteries. If those were full, any excess energy from the solar farm would be wasted. If the local batteries were empty, then cars could no longer be charged.
The cost of local batteries would be quite expensive, and those would have to be replaced over time.
The only practical way to use a solar farm for charging is to tie it to the electric grid, and that means adding DC to AC inverters. The inverters don't last forever either, but they cost much less than batteries.

already an Arduino implementation

[Locutus]

Nice to see an open source implementation already.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Arduino-EV-J1772-Charging-Station/?ALLSTEPS

LoB

micro usb

[locopuyo]

Why can't they just use micro usb like everyone else?

Re:Can the car control the cable if the battery di

[BasilBrush]

Your links are to the same story covered on two different sites. The story was debunked on Slashdot at the time it first appeared.

Completely wrong idea

[purplie]

We need a standard for swappable batteries, so you can pull up to a fueling station, have your exhausted batteries replaced in under a minute, and drive on.

OK, yeah there are potential issues of fraud with getting served with an undercharged battery. There would have to be some mostly-trusted monitoring tech to record actual energy extracted, and we'd have to eat whatever fraud slips by. But electric cars will never become mainstream until the long-distance travel issue is addressed, by (1) swappable batteries, (2) batteries rechargeable in a couple of minutes, or (3) gas prices so high that people will put up with waiting a long time for recharges at waystations.