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Windows RT vs. Windows 8 Could Burn Consumers
Nerval's Lobster writes "The Surface currently available for pre-order runs Windows RT, a version of the operating system designed to run on ARM architecture. Windows RT looks virtually identical to Windows 8, which, like previous versions of Windows, runs on the x86 architecture that dominates the laptop and desktop market. Microsoft's early marketing materials aren't exactly highlighting that differences between Windows RT and Windows 8 — and as a result, there's a high potential for unsuspecting consumers to end up burned when they buy a Windows RT tablet expecting the complete Windows experience. But Windows RT won't support legacy Windows applications — instead, users will need to hope and pray that developers port those applications to the Windows Store, the only venue for RT-supported apps. Over at The Verge, the intrepid Sean Hollister asked eight Microsoft Store representatives about the differences between Windows 8 and Windows RT, and received several confusing responses. 'To their credit, half of the representatives admitted that Windows RT wasn't as capable as Windows 8,' he wrote. 'The other half not so much. Moreover, those reps who did admit issues seemed dismissive of Windows RT as a whole.'"
...and I didn't have to read a disclaimer from Apple stating "Will not run OSX applications"...
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Microsoft is making a terrible mistake by not trying their absolute hardest to optimize the heck out of the Common Language Runtime for ARM. I don't think anyone would expect a tablet to be an acceptable desktop replacement machine - nobody thinks that of an iPad - but the fact they're not leveraging an existing architecture to bring application compatibility to the RT is going to cause major consumer headaches. No "native" apps would be a fine limitation, but they really should have the .NET CLR available for developers.
I occasionally chat with a few Microsoft SDEs who are directly involved in the development of native RT apps, and it usually goes something like this: "ARM is fucking terrible, it's weak and powerless!" "How come other platforms, including Linux, can run on ARM successfully?" "ARM isn't powerful enough to run Windows applications, that's what we mean. That's why we have to rewrite everything to be more highly optimized for these few Windows RT apps." "So, the reason Windows RT can't run Windows apps is because most Windows software is so bad, it wouldn't perform acceptably on something being run at its limits?" "Pretty much."
Perhaps that because iOS really looks nothing like OSX despite having the foundation of it?
...and I didn't have to read a disclaimer from Apple stating "Will not run OSX applications"...
And the Ipad didn't say 'OSX' on the front. This is being advertised as a Windows device, yet it won't run existing Windows programs.
...and I didn't have to read a disclaimer from Apple stating "Will not run OSX applications"...
I had to crush the hopes and dreams of more than a few who didn't successfully draw that inference...
Also, that was called 'iPad' rather than "OSX AR on Apple iPad"...
According to Wikipedia, "The RT acronym does not officially stand for anything." I predict that people will quickly take RT to stand for "ReTard" when they realize that Windows RT fails to run Windows software.
A Mac has "Mac" in its name (Mac mini, MacBook, iMac, etc). Its operating system is called "OS X".
An iPad doesn't have "Mac" in its name. Its operating system is called "iOS".
Hardware and software both have different names, there's no confusion.
Windows RT has "Windows" in its name, just like "Windows 98", "Windows XP", "Windows Vista" or "Windows 7". The Windows OS had names with numbers, letters, words... it's not constant, so "Windows (something) = Windows" for most people. And Windows RT certainly won't be an exception.
It's not as illogical as you think. I've had several people showing me their CDs and DVDs telling me to install them on their Windows phones because "it says Windows and therefore it does work, and you're just incompetent if you can't do it!" I do not even know how they expected to use Office or their games on a phone, but that's the thing with luddites: often times they simply do not have any idea about what they're doing.
With the above in mind I can easily see people being burned by the whole Windows RT - thing.
Macs Run OS X.
iPad Runs iOS.
x86 and ARM machines both run "Windows 8".
Here is a perfect example of this SNAFU:
http://www.futureshop.ca/en-CA/category/windows-tablets/31088.aspx?path=6d56ed26a8e2432d145864a8ee45cd37en01
This is the biggest Electronics retailer in Canada (does link work outside Canada?).
The First two tablets listed, both $599, Both look physically the same. Both have the exact same blue screen "Windows 8" logos on their screen.
There is absolutely no way that you can know by looking at any of the information at this level, that one of these tablets in x86 and will run legacy applications, and the other is ARM and won't.
If you go to each product page you can find in the fine print of specifications that one runs Intel, the other Tegra and one is Windows 8 RT. Which is incomprehensible nerd speak to most people.
It is that fact that they look the same, are marketed the same with the same graphical "Windows 8" is going to confuse almost everyone that isn't a hard core nerd.
The two have gotten a lot closer looking of late; but that's because they've been iPadding the hell out of what used to be an endurable desktop OS...
Now how do we do this? Well, we start with a strong foundation: iPhone runs OSX. Now, why, why would we wanna run such a sophisticated operating system on a mobile device? Well, because it’s got everything we need. It’s got multi-tasking. It’s got the best networking. It already knows how to power manage. We’ve been doing this on mobile computers for years. It’s got awesome security. And the right apps.
Also on their product page:
“iPhone uses OS X, the world’s most advanced operating system. Which means you have access to the best-ever software on a handheld device”
They unequivocally stated that iPhone runs OS X, yet hardly anyone reasonably expected desktop OS X software to run on the iPhone. I argue that this is because iOS looks so different from OS X and that the form factor is so much different from a Desktop. Since then, Apple has trained people that on tablets, you get your software from Appstores. I think people will look at Windows tablets and have the same expectation, despite that it's called Windows. Again, how many people expected Windows Mobile or Windows Phone would run desktop Windows applications?
In fact, what I predict is that Microsoft will have the opposite problem: convincing people that Windows 8 on desktops will run desktop applications. You see that confusion here on Slashdot all the time.
Well I am upset that the iOS on my touch would not provide routing, switching, internetworking and telecommunications functions.
There should of been a warning that this one did not provide that.
That's because the things thta run OS X applications are called "Macs". Like a Mac Mini. iMac. Mac Pro. Macbook Pro. Macbook Air. And all combinations thereof . "Mac" is part of the name.
iPad and iPhone? There's no "Mac" in the name, so no expectation to run Mac apps. There's an expectation to run iPhone apps on iPad, and probably the other way around too (which doesn't work unless it's universal).
Hell, I bet there are more people complaining they can't run MacOS Classic apps (or OS X PowerPC) apps on their Macs these days than people complaining about iOS apps working on their Mac or vice-versa.
Even the iOS things in OS X like the launcher aren't shown on first boot unless you click on them, further accentuating the difference.
Windows RT though, looks a lot like regular x86 Windows. And I'm sure people think Windows apps should run on Windows. Windows 8 RT and Windows 8? It's bound to be horrendously confused. After all, there's what, Windows 8 RT, Windows 8 Standard, Windows 8 Professional?
Hell I've had people ask about running Windows apps back when I worked on Windows CE.
If this article is right and Windows 8 ends up confusing and thereby pissing off consumers, I think this will be a huge win for Apple and Android. When you plopped $1k-$2k for a computer (in the olden days :-) and then added several $50-$150 software packages, the cost to abandon that platform is significant. But when your expenditures are in the $500-$600 range, tablet and apps, it'll be a lot easier to put the tablet up on eBay and go buy an alternative.
And the associated risks for Microsoft, let's call it the "horns effect*," could be catastrophic. People will say, "I gave Microsoft a chance for this new item, they suck. I'm not throwing more money at them. Look at how much I've spent on Windows computers/applications over the last 10+ years! Fool me twice, shame on me!" This really is a 'bet-the-company' move by Ballmer & Co (and of course we have 12 years of history of Microsoft under Ballmer to project from...)
* opposite of the "halo effect"
I can see people possibly being confused by this, but these are the same people who are generally confused by everything involving choices in a computing environment.
The summary makes it sound like yet another conspiracy...
I have to disagree:
;)
1). Windows 8 and windows rt look identical, both with tiles and touchscreens
2). Both designed for tablets
3). Both released around the same time
windows rt devices are cheaper though, so when consumers go into a store and see two tablets sitting side by side that look identical running windows, they're gonna grab RT, take it home, and be furious when they can't install any windows software on it, only software designed for Windows RT will work. I see this as a epic fail for Microsoft, biggest fail since windows ME. I do not understand why Microsoft made two identical OSes for tablets, they would have been better focusing on windows 8
Only good thing though is these RT devices will quickly be sold at fire sale and maybe we can put Android on them
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
The more the waters are muddied about the differences between the two operating systems, the larger the potential launch volume.
So, If I've got what you're saying right, they want people to be confused... because it will make them more likely to buy both types?
And then you have a bunch of people out there who already own the product and are trying to make it work, giving additional motivation to vendors to port to it.
Huh? ^ Fails to parse.
It's genius, although the kind of genius you pour out of a bottle.
If that's what passes for genius these days, I'll stick to being completely batty, thankyouverymuch.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
If people don't expect the Windows Tablet to run Windows applications, then why is MS going to be selling a version that does in January? Don't you see that MS is going to need to make a concerted effort to let users know that this is THE difference between these two products, if the don't want people to buy the Windows RT tablet expecting it to run their existing applications.
Agreed, I was horrified when people started talking about OSX and iOS merging - a sure sign of the apocalypse.
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There's a different scale here. Sure someone trying to install a standard windows program on a phone will fall down at any old technological hurdle. The two are designed completely different, look completely different, and interact completely different.
But ... RT vs Windows 8. They have the same interface (metro), they run on the same type of hardware (laptops / slates), they come with identical software pre-installed (internet explorer 10, email clients, etc).
It's really not a stretch to see that this is going to be a far larger problem then the usual "Oh my god why are you even trying to use technology" type of crowd.
I agree it will be confusing, but not in the way everyone here is assuming. The overwhelming reaction from people when I show them my old tablet PC running Windows 8 is not "Oh, the obviously must be able to run my old software!" but is instead "Is this really windows? Can it even run my old software?"
Windows 8 looks so different from Windows 7, especially on a tablet, that people (at least in my experience) don't automatically assume it will run regular Windows applications. I think this is going to burn Microsoft in the opposite way everyone here is predicting.
Windows RT is just there to make things difficult for Android table makers. The "consumers" that buy them are merely colateral damage.
* Carthago Delenda Est *
I think you're wrong. I think people are going to buy the tablet and be satisfied with the software bumdled with it and what they can download off of the Windows Store. I think anyone concerned with legacy application support is going to know the difference between Windows RT and Windows 8. The lack of a DVD drive is going dissuade most people from even trying to load their legacy software. For the few people that do run into this issue, they can always bring their tablet back and upgrade to the Windows 8 version.
by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
Android? You are weird.
A nice Linux with KDE is what this hardware needs.
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
And this is why the Metro push is an abuse of monopoly power, and should never have been permitted. Microsoft is trying to use their existing desktop monopoly to leverage extra market share in a different field (tablets and smartphones), using the new Metro API as a weapon, and degrading customer experience in the process. This should have been stopped by the FTC and European Union before it reached the point of release.
What is especially jarring is seeing all the tablet-esque window management misfeatures at play even as it has never been cheaper to have a couple of big monitors on your desk. In particular, the behavior where 'full-screen' on one application causes all your other monitors to blank to a grey background can only be Apple's way of giving the finger to their remaining pro users...
Yes they did, and it came pre-installed on some devices.
http://www.pocketpcfaq.com/faqs/PocketOfficeFeatures.htm
It was me, I did it, I moved your cheese
But I really think that in this case ***Futureshop*** is confusing customers, not Microsoft.
Those stock photos showing the Windows 8 logo were not likely provided by ASUS for the RT product. >
Really this is a Microsoft Problem because they named them too closely. They should have called WinRT something totally different, to avoid this mess, really anyone thinking about it should have been able to predict this.
If all the product specialists are the biggest electronic retailers in North America are confused and making mistakes, what chance does the average consumer have.
Essentially the same thing happening at Newegg:
http://www.newegg.com/Tablets-Accessories/Category/ID-164?Tpk=tablet
Check the top of the page.
Win 8 Tablets!
Then they have a mix of ARM/x86 tablets all with the same graphics (this time Metro).
But it is still both kinds of tablets called Windows 8 and undifferentiated.
I'm pretty sure that issue with multi-monitor setups and full screen apps have been resolves in Mountain Lion. At least that version of the OS solved my VMWare fusion problem running in full screen mode. But yes, prior versions of OSX did exactly as you described.
Life is not for the lazy.
RT is what MS want Windows to become. The desktop is legacy and at some point it will be dropped (admitedly, likely to be many years in the future). Dropping legacy support is one of Apple's strengths so why shouldn't MS try the same approach? Sure, on Oct 26th the RT tablets are going to be a bit of a dissapointment, but that will change. RT is a powerful framework:
From http://www.winsupersite.com/blog/supersite-blog-39/windows8/winrt-replacing-win32-140605
"...And in the same vein of blowing past peoples' expectations, virtually no app could not be written as a WinRT app. Many are imagining very simple, HTML-like apps, and while I'm sure there will be plenty of those, you need to reset your expectations up. WinRT is amazingly full-featured and not constrained to goofy utilities and simple games. The next "Call of Duty" could be a WinRT app, complete with support for Edge UIs and Charms..."
It is the x86 tablets that are the stop-gap
"Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs," I said. "we have a protractor"
Now just two versions of Windows is too confusing for consumers?!
Most linux users don't know this, but the man pages were named after Chuck Norris. Chuck Norris fsck'ing hates noobs!
That's because Windows is being used as too broad of a marketing label. Their tablet versions should have had different names from the full sized operating systems. Ie, a Macintosh is seen by customers as a real computer. An iPad is seen by customers as a stripped down computing device with less CPU, RAM, and storage than a full computer, with a tablet basically being like a larger smart phone.
Maybe they're planning on full edition Windows 8 to be on a small tablet, but that's a separate problem of Microsoft shoving too much stuff into small devices. Then again if they do manage to get Windows 8 to run smoothly and quickly on a tablet, then people can start demanding the same performance on a real machine as well instead of the typical mantra that everyone must upgrade their machines to run the latest OS.
Suppose Apple had two nearly-identically named products with nearly identical apparent functionality which couldn't run the same programs. Say, iPad 3 and iPad X. Look the same, appear to function the same, same product line name, just a different version to indicate there's some sort of difference. The iPad 3 runs everything that can run on iOS, but the iPad X runs only apps made just for the iPad X.
Then, and only then, would the comparison be fitting.
You guys are Pros. I have never seen a thread critical of Microsoft derailed into an Apple bash-fest quite as fast as this one. TFA wasn't even suggesting that MS was up to no good.
I never expected my iPad to run OSX applications
I can see people possibly being confused by this
Some percentage of users will definitely be confused by it. I do support for software sales of Windows-only software, it's clearly labelled Windows only, and yet a regular request is processing refunds for users who bought the software and then claim to be confused that it doesn't run on their iPad or iPhone or Mac. If people can't even tell the difference between Mac and Windows then they sure aren't going to grasp these relatively finer distinctions. If you're stupid you must suffer.
8 home basic
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People have been downloading software instead of installing it from DVDs for a long time now. I suspect that quite a few people will try to install Steam on it, for example.
But, but, ... I got told my smart phone is as powerful as the early supercomputers!