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Third 2012 US Presidential Debate Tonight: Discuss Here
Tonight marks the third and final U.S. Presidential debate in the lead-up to the election on November 6th. It starts at 9PM ET (6PM PT, 0100 UTC), and it's taking place at Lynn University in Florida. The topic this time around is foreign policy, including discussions of Afghanistan and Pakistan, Israel and Iran, America's role in the world, "The Changing Middle East and the New Face of Terrorism," and China's rise as a superpower. You can livestream it from the usual suspects: (C-SPAN, ABC, PBS, CNN). Politifact has posted an article fact-checking statements the candidates have made about foreign policy. Both they and Factcheck.org will be using Twitter to verify statements in real time. This presidential debate again excludes the smaller U.S. political parties. If you're interested in hearing other voices, you'll be able to see candidates from the Libertarian, Green, Constitution, and Justice parties in a debate tomorrow with Larry King moderating. As before, we're doing a separate post for the debate in the hopes that political talk won't clutter other stories tonight. Tell us what you think as the debate unfolds. For live conversation, remember: context helps. And, as reader Ryanator2209 keeps pointing out, you can entertain yourself by playing Logical Fallacy Bingo while you watch.
If this is what socialism, I love it.
a long time ago, Mitt Romney was chair of the audit committee at Marriott.
And Marriott filed tax returns using a very lucrative tax shelter known as "son of BOSS"
I contend that at the time, son of boss was illegal - it was patently a sham transaction.
I don't know if legal liability attached to Gov Romney then, or now, what with staute of limitations, but this incident tells us that MR is quite comfortable filing fraudulent tax retrns.
Which means, maybe all of these things in MR's taxes are real
magic beanstalk IRA with undervalued capital contributions
Rafalca as business that should have been a hobby
sham transactions in cayman island accounts
listing himself as passive instead of active investor...
and the beat goes on....
I've watched all the #debates so far and it's sad how little they say, tapdance around questions, avoid talking about the critical issues while spending lots of time on things that don't matter for shit.
Sad, sad field. These ain't the best, and they ain't the brightest.
Nice try Anonymous Coward.. But most of the Slashdot readers here are educated enough to know that Obama is only slightly less authoritarian than Romney and 'socialism' is just a word used in the wrong context to demagogue Obama. Further, most Slashdot readers are smart enough to see that Romney changes his rhetoric for whatever crowd he's entertaining and either candidate just continues the march towards facism.. It's just that Obama seems to want to march slower.
I'll be voting Gary Johnson. Even though I think Obama is the slightly lesser of two evils, I am sick of voting for evil.
--- We need more Ron Paul!
It doesn't matter which wins.
Obama is brown lunch with grey sauce, and Romney is grey lunch with brown sauce. (And no. That is not a euphamism for their races. It's an animaniacs reference.)
It doesn't matter which one wins. Regardless, a deleterious agenda will be spearheaded. It is a false dichotomy to say we must choose which of those agendas to bend over for.
Personally, I'd vote for "assasinate both and start over", but in civilized countries this isn't an option. I'll grudgingly settle for "insane and unpredictable" with a write in for Paul. (Insane and unpredictable at least frustrates all major agendas.)
There is going to be a debate at 21:00 EDT on October 23, hosted by Larry King. The candidates taking part are the Libertarian Party's Gary Johnson, the Green Party's Jill Stein, the Constitution Party's Virgil Goode, and the Justice Party's Rocky Anderson.
Somehow, I don't suspect we'll see anything different than we saw in the first two: heated exchange of cliches and platitudes, punctuated with awkward smiles. Enjoy it while you can.
Play logical fallacy bingo! It also makes a great drinking game.
My other sig is clever.
So on the one hand, you can watch the major party candidates lie as easily as they breath. On the other hand, you can spend those 90 minutes reading about what Obama did as president and what Romney did as governor. Oh, and you can also read about the third party candidates, and what they did previously.
Why listen to lies, when you can uncover the truth?
Palm trees and 8
I was thinking, after seeing clips from the previous debates, that the debate's host should include a real-time fact-checking panel of about six people seated behind the audience, with computers so they can contact their support staff and get quicker results. Then the debators could say "I'd like a fact check on that", and the audience (local and remote) would get a near-instant "vote" from the panel as to whether the purported fact is correct.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
The rich in the US are only interested in their own wealth, and not the longterm wealth of their country. So they don't want to ensure that all citizens have a good education and are able to get healthcare they need. This results in the US having one of the worst social mobility ratings in the developed world. Land of the opportunity for the filthy rich to become even richer, and most of the rest to rot.
Our current president has an agenda to redistribute the wealth from the smart, capable, entrepeneurs to the fat, slobby, freeloading welfare moms.
His opponent has an agenda to redistribute wealth from the middle and working classes to the fat cats that already have more than their share.
the fat, slobby, freeloading welfare moms. [...] the bottom rungs of our society"
I'm guessing that you've never looked into the question of where most public aid actually goes.
His blatant attempt to inject government control into all facets of our lives
Yea, God intended that big corporations should do that. Usurper! Infidel!
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
is where i watch the president debates. They seem to be more real.
Be seeing you...
Let me guess you voted for Bush or Gore. How is that working out for you?
Did you think capitalism won with the fall of the Soviet Union? Think again. His blatant attempt to inject government control into all facets of our lives (not just health care - where it has no business anyway) is the culmination of decades of left wing planning and if we don't stop this power grab now, we may never be able to.
Indeed. All this government control ("regulations" they call it) are mightly interfering with my business plan to sell rat poison in cans labeled Nutritious Food.
I can't believe how blatant this government control is, and how people can just sit back and let me be completely unable to sell them rat poison in cans labeled Nutritious Food.
It's un-American!
Our current president has an agenda to redistribute the wealth from the smart, capable, entrepeneurs to the fat, slobby, freeloading welfare moms.
Meanwhile the smart capable entrepreneurs have an agenda to redistribute all wealth to themselves. A healthy society needs that balance.
. His blatant attempt to inject government control into all facets of our lives (not just health care - where it has no business anyway) is the culmination of decades of left wing planning and if we don't stop this power grab now, we may never be able to.
a) The republicans grab power just as aggressively at every opportunity.
b) The government absolutely has a role in healthcare. I do not want healthcare allocated according to who can pay the most for it; nor which insurance companies can model who is likely to get sick and exclude those people, or deny care to people who are already afflicted (pre-existing conditions). Capitalism is not the right model.
Whether or not it should be a federal program vs state is certainly a legitimate discussion, but healthcare is a government mandate that the majority wants in some form.
If you are a true patriot and love this country that we call home, you must vote for Mitt Romney next month and preserve the dream that anyone can come from the most humble of beginnings and succeed in this melting pot we call the United States of America.
Only an idiot should fall that nonsense. Your odds of going from humble beginnings to success are increased if you are given a leg up while in the 'humble beginnings' stage; if you aren't deprived an education because you can't afford it, if you aren't financially wiped out because someone in your family tripped and broke a few ribs, it gets a lot easier to become a productive member of society, to save up a nest-egg, to strike out as an entrepreneur, to become a -gasp- "job creator".
How exactly does the argument that government wealth redistribution prevents people from succeeding work? Bearing in mind that all the evidence shows that the wealthy are doing just fine, and indeed are getting wealthier by the day.
Way to go! Instead of using your vote to keep out the worst possible outcome for everyone (Romney), you're throwing it away
What I find hilarious is that the Obama supporters I have spoken to, including people who are out canvassing for Obama's campaign, cannot come up with a better argument than this: "Well at least he's not Mitt Romney!" What kind of a reason is that to vote for a someone? Oh, and, newsflash: Obama is a terrible candidate. Here is what Obama's administration has done:
Yeah, that really sounds like someone we need in the white house. Sure, Romney is not going to do things differently -- so why even pretend there is a difference? Anything you can say Romney would do that is bad, there is something equally bad that Obama is doing right now.
Palm trees and 8
"The 1980's are calling for their foreign policy back" -- Barack Obama :)
http://unfix.org
We as a nation always complain about our 2 party system and all the problems that come with it. We also frequently joke about how neither of the candidates are exceptional. We then proceed to completely ignore all third party candidates. Realistically no third party candidate can win, but the more votes they get, the more seriously they will be taken in the future. Parties need to get 15% to get in these debates. If you view this system a bit like a free market, that's like saying a small business needs to take 15% market share from two colluding conglomerates. The third parties have been almost entirely ignored by the major political news dialog. Part of that is the fault of the news organizations that specialize to target a major political demographic, but part of that problem is us.
It will only break the majority if and when the republican (or democrat) parties completely collapse.
I really don't understand how so many slashdotters fail to grasp that the two party system doesn't just happen by chance. It's not just that voters consider only two parties before their brains explode. It's first-past-the-post voting. Get a parlimentary system in place if you want a third party. Otherwise, just vote in the primaries and realize that the same people who are getting elected now are the same people who would get elected under a multiparty system.
if a political debate comes on, turn OFF the TV and go out for a drink with your friends! - Let's try this one again...
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
The rich have always been against anything that would make life better for regular people. (living in luxury while being surrounded by squalor apparently makes the rich feel special or something) Our society had to fight like hell to get rid of the company stores/housing, get a standard 40-hour work week, OSHA regulations, public education, etc. Hell, the rich were even opposed to the poor having running water and bathtubs at first because the rich thought the poor would just use the tubs to store coal.
"It is a denial of justice not to stretch out a helping hand to the fallen; that is the common right of humanity."
I watched the last debate, out of what I guess was a partial sense of guilt and a partial sense of duty as an American citizen ... but it sorely disappointed me.
Not that I expected better, but it just served as a reminder of what a circus the whole thing is today.
As I pointed out to some friends of mine after the debate, both candidates are primarily concerned with putting on a good show. They went over their allotted speaking time over and over again. I've seen high-school debate classes with students FAR more capable of getting their points across within their time slots! You have to ask yourself if Romney and Obama are really that unskilled at time management? I think you and I both know the answer to that one. They're only running out the clock and continuing to talk because it's a TACTIC. If a candidate really doesn't have a good, effective comment or rebuttal to make, he wanders off topic to run the clock down, and then pretends to start addressing the issue as time is running out. That way, he can appear to have simply not been given enough time to explain his position rather than do so in full and look foolish. Alternately, he can purposely exceed the time limit in an attempt to irritate his opponent and rattle him.
Beyond that? I expect more of the REAL issues will be directly addressed by those "alternative, smaller political parties" we finally get to hear debate in their own little CNN hosted program tomorrow.
If you want to really discuss where the U.S. stands in the eyes of the rest of the world, a good start would be expounding on the recent Wall Street Journal article explaining how U.S. citizens living abroad are suddenly finding foreign banks no longer want their business. The U.S. government (and IRS in particular) have become so demanding and ruthless in their quest to "know all" about each person's investments and spending habits, they've made it uneconomical for foreign banks to comply anymore. Even the Swiss bankers (once considered almost untouchable) are being given the ultimatum by the USA ... turn over all those records of who has what in your bank, or else. Some people have even tried to turn in their passports and renounce their U.S. citizenship, only to find the IRS invalidates it, because they haven't paid past taxes (or even an "exit tax" they expect to be paid first).
It's an ugly state of affairs when your country believes it literally "owns" you, despite your express intentions to leave it behind. And the rest of the world realizes how draconian the U.S. government is getting, and doesn't want to get involved in that mess.... Here's betting NONE of this is even hinted at tonight in the "debates".
No.. Third party votes do count. When the Republicans and Democrats are working together to divide the people in half as evenly as possible, and only winning by small margins, a small-margin of third-party votes has a huge effect.
--- We need more Ron Paul!
Palm trees and 8
As an Australian then you will know that debates have been a big deal for Australian politics, including the infamous "worm" showing the performance of each speaker. The debate between Keating and Hewson probably won the election for Keating, one he was expected to lose. Debates are a way to get a feel for the speaker without (fully) prepared speeches and under a bit of pressure.
No.. Third party votes do count. When the Republicans and Democrats are working together to divide the people in half as evenly as possible, and only winning by small margins, a small-margin of third-party votes has a huge effect.
The only problem is that "huge effect" is, usually, negative for the interests they represent. They "steal" votes from the candidate that is near to their interests making the other win. So, you have a real disincentive to promote a third party.
Mitt Romney wants to create world peace? By arming the Syrian rebels? Because that's never bit us in the ass. I'm sick and tired of this mentality that the United States needs to police the entire world and Romney keeps saying crap like "it's an honor that we didn't ask for but we have." What the hell?
Oh! But yeah, go ahead and arm Syrian rebels! Iran totally won't view that as an aggressive act! No, they'll sit by and watch that happen! And just say "Gee, I guess the people of Syria have spoken!" Try meeting with them then and using diplomacy to reduce their nuclear efforts!
My work here is dung.
It absolutely matters who wins. You're just being lazy because it hurts to vote for a guy who loses, or to vote for a guy who then does stuff you don't like.
Let's say that the Democrats grow a spine and don't let Romney get whatever he wants. At the very least, he will be able to appoint new SCOTUS justices. Ruth Bader Ginsburg is 79 years old. It is very likely that the winner of his election will name her replacement. If she is replaced by a conservative justice, Roe v Wade will be overturned within a year. Many women will die in back-alley abortions. Many more will have their lives turned upside down.
And that's if we're optimistic and assume that's all Romney gets to do. He also wants to end Medicare, which will bankrupt countless seniors. He wants to slash taxes by 20% across the board and pay for them in a manner that has been proven to be mathematically impossible. He wants to increase military spending by trillions of dollars. His bellicose rhetoric, constantly accusing Obama of being soft and an apologist, makes it far more likely that he'll bow to pressure from Netanyahu and go to war in Iran.
Now, you're probably a fairly well off young straight male, so who cares if women die trying to get abortions? Who cares if some old people are thrown out into the streets? Who cares if some poor people are sent off to die in a foreign land? Who cares if gay people are treated as subhuman?
It's so much easier to pretend it doesn't matter. And cooler too! You get to show off to the internet how wise and jaded you are!
You disgust me.
They "steal" votes from the candidate that is near to their interests making the other win. So, you have a real disincentive to promote a third party.
You can't call a person not being given something that doesn't belong to them "stealing". Even the quotes you added to suggest you were already dubious of the use of the term. I may as well tell people that Gore "stole" the election from Nader. If Gore hadn't been running, Nader would have gotten all of the non-Bush votes!
Nothing will ever change if people continue to think in terms of the lesser of two evils since evil always "has a real disincentive to promote a third party."
It is sometimes your duty as a thinking individual to choose between two evils. No one wants to have to, but it is sometimes the choice that is in front of you.
Relevant quote from Douglas Adams's So Long, And Thanks For All The Fish:
... here is what I see.
Religious right: "we love Romney! He's a good christian(tm) like us, and 'hayts teh gayz!' And thinks abortion is evil like us! We don't like Obama, because he sided with Teh Gayz and the baby killers, and wants to give those evil sinners our tax money!" (Nevermind that almost none of us are actually true adherents of the beliefs we claim to aspire to, or we wouldn't 'hayte teh gayz' like we do, and wouldn't try to force our reigious beliefs down the rest of the nation as a whole, because we wouldn't want to be hypocrites, something GOD (as in, red letters) says he simply cannot tolerate. Also, Obama's black. We won't say that publicly, because it's racist, and we have a dirty trac record, but yeah. Its an issue. Also, Obama's totally a socialist, out to take all the hard earned money from god-fearing americans, and give them to shiftless, lazy people who are too lazy to go out and get jobs! Nevermind that there aren't any jobs for them to take even if they did, because of our immigrant labor policies! It's so much easier to abuse foriegn laborers than poor domestic ones!"
Liberal Left: "we love Obama, because he said he is for gay marriage, and supports a woman's right to choose not to be pregnant. He strongy supports intellectual properties and wants to help creative industries remain profitable while giving government funds to help the poor escape poverty. (Nevermind that he only JUST came out in support of those social issues as a result of Romney choosing to not support them, and that his fiscal policies for the past term have been absolutely disasterous, and that historical precident for large scale welfare programs shows a dreadful prognosis long term. He's our candidate. Also, He's black, so he's a minority, and that's edgy. We like that. We won't say that publicly though, because that's racist. Also, voting for him pisses the religious people off, and we like that, because we think they are dumb.)
Libertarians, Moderate centrists, independents: "Seriously, you expect us to choose between somebody that has endorsed legislation that has expanded government powers to defeat due process and harm our citizens, repeatedly and consistently for 4 years, while authorizing expanded military budgets while claiming emphatically that his doing so is all Bush's fault despite his being out of office for 4 years and having the power to veto and recind previous executive orders this whole time, failing to deliver on pretty much all of his promises, and who's financial policies are the thing of nightmares-- and somebody who is pretty much the poster child for graft, corruption, and hypocrisy, who has openly stated that he is fully in favor of corporations being considered equal to living breathing people in terms of rights, despite the lack of culpability for civic offenses, and requirements for public services, and is clearly not going to act in the interests of the american public at large? You honestly expect us to choose between a stupid narcisist with a bright smile, and a raging sociopath? REALLY !? ARE YOU FUCKING CRAZY!?"
Take a wild stab which group I belong in.
Say, do you like HOSTS files by any chance?
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
And let's see, he's promised to cut taxes for everyone, balance the budget and not cut spending anywhere. Riiight. I remember when Bush Sr. said that. Got elected and promptly raised taxes, that's what he did. What else could Romney do? Eviscerate Medicare and Social Security? Nope -- cock-blocked in the Senate. And the national Credit Card is probably pretty close to as charged up as it's going to get, so he can't just cut taxes and kick the can down the road for the next president. Romney would have to raise taxes and cut spending across the board. It's really the only thing he CAN do. Obama would have to do that too. And Romney knows that. Why do you think he's so vague when asked for specifics of his plan?
Romney says he'll fix the economy and everyone will have a job as soon as he's elected. Fact of the matter is, the job market is not going to recover to where it was for a generation. It doesn't matter WHO gets elected, unemployment is going to sit around 8 percent for years.
If Romney is elected I predict he'll be a mildly ineffective leader, probably start an unfunded war in Iran, and spent most of his time being blocked by the Democrats in the Senate. If Obama is elected I predict he'll be a mildly ineffective leader, possibly start an unfunded war in Iran and spend most of his time being blocked by the Republicans in the Senate.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I can't watch ANY of it, and quite frankly, the Libertarians are the worst. All of the politicos spout platitudes describing things they will never do, let alone even attempt, pandering to the extremes with promises that can'r possibly come true...
And the Libertarians are the absolute worst, with the exception of Lyndon LaRouche (who has in fact been dead for years - his body was preserved by the same folks who did Stalin). LaRouche and Ralph Nader, now there's a ticket I would vot for, just to be entertained for four years.
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
Only an American would be so Fucking stupid as to think Obama is a socialist. Americans don't have the foggiest clue what socialism is.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Hello Left. I am Centrist. Right is over there.
Just so you know what my personal policies are regarding the issues you just lobbed at me blithely, again, despite two previous postings pointng out that "criticism of Obama != support of Romney" for you, As the saying goes, "third time's the charm."
I support people getting abortions, within reason. For instance, I am in favor of things like "plan B" which induces a chemical abortion during the first trimester. I think it should be OTC, with a free pharmicist consult to prevent dangerous off-label use. (It can cause life threatening bleeding if used on a later stage pregnancy, for instance.) I am against 3rd trimester abortion of any kind. (Seriously, the woman didn't know she was pregnant for 6 months before then? For real?) Religion isn't the issue. I am agnostic. In terms of risk of complications, a ceasarian and a D&E with currettage (literally, having the womb scraped with a kife) are about on par, except that one kills the fetus, and the other does not. Barring extreme medical interventions, 3rd trimester abortion has no medical benefit whatsoever, and cannot be supported rationally.
Medical care is a serious problem as well, but the problem with the "all eggs in one basket" approach by government causes a situation rife with abuse, which happens right now, routinely. Rather than a shortlist of medical suppliers authorized to work through medicare, I would rather see patients receive a fixed credit from medicare, and search for the best provider for their specific needs. That way hospitals have to compete for medicare funding. I would like to see US pharmecutical companies be prohibited from selling pharmecuticals at rediculous premiums domestically, and for peanuts abroad as well. This alone would almost completely fix medicaid. Additionally, I would like to se a mandate to the AMA that they train a radically increased percentage of physicians each year, to drive down the costs of care by increasing supply.
As for my sexual preference, you have it wrong. I am asexual, and don't give a shit what people do with their equipment. I cannot condone anyone being treated disrespectfully over something as rediculous as who they or don't find attractive.
Now. Care to shoe-horn me into the Romney camp some more, or are you satisfied?
I call you out on your demagogue word 'socialism' and you replace it with 'Marxist' like that is somehow a good argument. It's just name-calling. I'm not worried about socialism or communism.. Like I said earlier, I am worried about facism.
And, since I will be the one voting, I will decide whether or not I am losing by casting a losing vote. Perhaps my only goal is to influence the scope of discussion and open up both 'sides' to the ideas that only Gary Johnson is talking about. My choice is to expand the scope of discussion. My choice is for a better Republican candidate than the one the Establishment dictates to me. My choice is that it would be better for the Republicans in the long run to lose the election to a bad President than to win the election with a bad candidate.
My vote is for Gary Johnson. Obama is simply not better than Romney by enough of a margin for me to vote for him; and vice-versa. Gary Johnson is on the ballot and my choice is for him.
--- We need more Ron Paul!
you have a lot more power than you think
but your power is counterintuitive
in 1992, ross perot voters meant bill clinton won
in 2000, ralph nader voters meant gw bush won (well, al gore actually won, but he lost the bullshit filter we call the electoral college by a hair's sliver that nader voters greatly outnumbered)
in 2012, you guys may again decide who wins since the election is so close
third party voters come from a disillusioned left, or a disillusioned right. it seems to me that this election cycle has more disillusioned voters on the right. meaning: obama wins, as the right is fractionated to some extent by voters for someone other than romney
unfortunately, we live in a system where you have to vote strategically, not idealistically
1. for those of you who vote strategically (not the guy i like the best but the guy closest of the main parties), you get someone closer to your ideology in the white house
2. for those of you who vote idealistically (screw the guy who could win, i like THIS guy), you get someone further away from your ideology in the white house (see 1992 and 2000 above)
now, other systems where more than two parties dominate: is that really such a rosy world? ask someone in parliamentary systems where coalition governments form: you have people close to you ideologically, getting into bed with ideologies that are extremely odious to you, to stay in power. coalitions of perverse arrangement
in other words, other countries are not better than the usa if ideological purity is so important to you, they are just compromised in different ways than the american system
such that, an ugly truth for you: you will NEVER, as long as you ever live, have someone you love ideologically in power. you will ALWAYS have someone who is kinda sorta like you, as your best bet. this is true no matter what your ideology, right or left. why? because that's EXACTLY what politics is: compromise, in order to lead. that's what politics always was, what it is, and what it always will be. and only an ideologue is angrily allergic to compromise. and thank god, therefore, your man will never lead in a sane country. because the leader who champions rigid ideology over compromise is dangerous
politics is a game to appeal a lot of people weakly, than a few strongly. get used to it. the candidates who have the best chance to lead, always, FOREVER, will appeal to you ONLY weakly
you should accept this truth, and always vote strategically instead of ideologically
or help elect the guy further away from you ideologically by voting idealistically
your choice
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
You made the claim that the candidates are the same. I pointed out that they were different.
That's it. I never shoehorned you into either camp. I said I was disgusted by your apathy towards an election that will literally be life or death for many people. There are clear and important differences between the candidates, and to deny that is the height of recklessness.
Those differences include:
Abortion. Romney would outlaw it, Obama would preserve the status quo. From your post, you should prefer Obama.
Medicare. Romney would end it, Obama would make some minor tweaks to keep it solvent. From your post, you would prefer Romney. You're wrong, and don't seem to understand that sending seniors to the for-profit corporations for care would not improve outcomes, but you should at least acknowledge there's a difference.
Military spending. Obama is trying to cut it by $100Byr, Romney wants to increase it by $200B/yr. You gave no indication of which you prefer, but unless you're barely-sentient, you must have some sort of opinion on the matter.
Taxes. Romney would cut them 20% across the board, Obama would raise them by a few percent on people earning $250k+/yr, and by ~10% on capital gains. Again, surely you have some opinion on the matter.
Gay rights. Sounds like you ought to be in the Democrat's camp on this one, if you truly don't condone mistreatment of people based on their sexual orientation.
War. Romney wants to ramp military spending, has said a little while ago in the debate that we should be arming the Syrian rebels, has accused Obama of not sufficiently supporting Israel, etc. If he's elected, there's a better than even chance that we'll be at war in Iran in the next two years. Obama has resisted calls by Israel to support bombing strikes against Iran, pursuing every possible alternative, and wants to cut military spending. I can't guarantee that he wouldn't go to war, but it seems far less likely.
Any reasonable person should come to the conclusion that Obama is the better choice here. An unreasonable one, who perhaps has their view of the world tainted by religion, might think Romney is the better choice. But only an absolute fool would say it doesn't matter either way.
Don't get me wrong, I approve of a lot of Gary Johnson's platform, but the idea of eliminating the IRS, income taxes, corporate income taxes...I'm sorry but I think that's insane. Not even Ireland has 0% corporate income tax, and consumption (sorry, "expenditure") taxes are regressive.
I'd love to support Mr. Johnson but I rather like the civilized society that we live in and I know that taxes are the price we pay for such a society.
:(){
I really enjoy this crap every four years. Since I live (and am taxed) in the US but can't vote (btw, what about taxation without representation??), I sit back and enjoy the show.
Politics is sad in most countries: In democracies, the majority (not to get into the electoral college nonsense) put a person into a position of enormous power, hoping that he/she will somehow fight their instinct of self-enrichment and do good for the average population. The nice thing about US politics is that they make so many loopholes that politicians can make money hand-over-fist in clearly unethical manners, and then use media soundbites to smear the other guy while taking a holier-than-thou attitude... Corporation financing? Sure. Trading on insider information? No problems. 'Must-not-coordinate with SuperPACs'? wink-wink, no problems. And once they get in, the endless smears from every direction:
A: Your guy sued puppies...
B: Well, Puppies is an acronym for People Usurping Public Property In Every State
A: Call the press, this guy is a puppy hater
B: Oh yeah, well... You're weak on crime and trying to allow redistribution. of resources - you communist/socialist/marxist/whatever
It's almost like mutually assured destruction - do anything, and the other guy will twist your words and actions to make you seem like a crook. It is quite funny from an outsider's perspective. Our politicians lie, cheat, whore, and steal. You make it legal to steal, and they lie, cheat, and whore, and blame the other guy for stealing. At least there is some hope that if our politicians get caught, they might lose something. Politics in the US is a no-loss game for the players.
The only problem is that "huge effect" is, usually, negative for the interests they represent.
This is true in the short run. But in the long run, voting for a third party causes the major parties to move in that direction to win these voters back. The popularity of the Socialist Party in the early 20th Century caused the Democrats under FDR to move significantly to the left.
Since neither the Libertarians nor the Greens get many votes, the major parties are under little pressure to champion personal liberty and/or stronger environmentalism. By supporting one of these parties, you can change that. Unless you live in a swing state, your vote is meaningless anyway, so voting third party is the only way to make a difference.
Well, since any third party will likely be excluded AGAIN from the "official" presidential debates, why not gather the third party candidates together for some sports analyst-style commentary on the debate? The debate will be streamed live into a studio where the other candidates are gathered. They will then be given a chance to comment or savage the arguments or lack thereof of the Democratic/Republican candiates. Of course, it won't have the immediacy of a real debate, but since the official debate is shaping out to be a verbal boxing match anyway, this will at least give the third party candiates a chance to have their views heard.
I haven't watched any of the unofficial debates, so I don't know if this is already being done on a time-shifted basis.
550 goddamn votes in Florida and you'd see what difference not electing Bush the Lesser would have made, kemosabe.
Hail Eris, full of mischief...
E pluribus sanguinem
I'll be voting Gary Johnson.
If you're going to vote third-party you could at least vote for electoral reform.
They are both the same? Not to me. As a cancer patient who has gone from unemployed to a semi-well paying job, I can now get insurance that I couldn't get/hope to afford before Obama.
You close your eyes and ears and say it all looks/sounds the same. Your an albatross around the neck of this country, and if you truly feel that way, brush up on your Mandarin and move to China where it really is all the same.
If you want to convince people to change why not spend your protest vote at the State or local level where it might matter?
In the event that a 3rd party did win a presidential election under the current conditions it would be because an already famous person became their candidate and won on the basis of their own fame, not because you voted for a Libertarian candidate most people never heard of in 2012.
If on the other hand you focus on the local or state level, capture the state legislature in a friendly state, then get some people in congress, then the senate, then as governor, well now you actually have a credible vehicle from which to launch a national campaign. But starting off as a Presidential campaign? That's not going to change anything.
I stole this Sig
Romney is surrounding himself with Bush neocons and you know a Romney administration would staff key cabinet positions with them. And he doesn't know anything about foreign policy, and couldn't care less about earth sciences - specifically environmental science. No, he would leave all that to neocons and big oil construction companies to deal with. Shock & awe, bombing runs, land wars, fear in the form of colorful terror warning labels, etc. More war (non-infrastructure investment) debt that does nothing good for the US economy, except grab more oil at the high cost of war. The only "good thing" for you Slashdotters are Romney's promised high bracket tax cuts. And if you're a one issue voter that'd be it. Otherwise, you know better. So the question is: get bigger tax returns and fuck-up middle easterners and the earth's biosphere, or not?
Nice try Anonymous Coward.. But most of the Slashdot readers here are educated enough to know that Obama is only slightly less authoritarian than Romney and 'socialism' is just a word used in the wrong context to demagogue Obama. Further, most Slashdot readers are smart enough to see that Romney changes his rhetoric for whatever crowd he's entertaining and either candidate just continues the march towards facism.. It's just that Obama seems to want to march slower.
I'll be voting Gary Johnson. Even though I think Obama is the slightly lesser of two evils, I am sick of voting for evil.
And that's the attitude that got us 8 years of Bush! Al Gore won the popular vote and take away the Ralph Nader votes and it was a landslide for Gore in 2000. Kerry lost over the Swift Boat BS which should have never been an issue since it was obvious lies. Voting for Gary Johnson IS a vote for Romney and history supports that stance. Obama means things won't change much. Vote for Romney and he's said he wants tax cuts for the rich and fewer deductions for the middle class. Get over the fact Obama is black and listen to what they actually say. Obama rarely wavers on his stances while Romney changes with every sunrise. In the court of law the guy that changes his story is assumed to be the liar and the one that never wavers is the truthful one. Funny how in elections that rule never applies unless it's a Democrat. Kerry was hammered on changing a couple of stances. Romney has changed practically EVERY stance! By that metric who is trust worthy?
Actually, the Libertarians are having a strong effect on the Republican party. You'll notice that Ron Paul debated on the stage with the other Republican candidates, and got a strong response. The effect is usually sneered at as "The Tea Party". But if you look at any candidate labeled as a Tea Party candidate, you'll see a strong libertarian streak.
Furthermore, it's worth noting that, just before the Civil War, the Republicans WERE the 3rd party. The bad thing about a 2-party system is that, no matter who the 3rd-party is, if they get strong they eventually become one of the 2. The good thing about a 2-party system is that some fringe group (like the Greens or Austria's Freedom Party) can't hold the coalition government model hostage in order to advance their narrowly-supported agenda.
hum, shouldn't we be more concerned about who gets into the house and senate? I mean the legislative branch is the place where laws are proposed and legislated. The u.s president's powers are very limited. You want change, stop putting corporate puppet whores in house and senate. Medicare/Medicade $793 billion, SS $700 billion, Total defense spending 2012 is $1.4 trillion, Net Interest? $197 billion, Other Mandatory? $416 billion, Discretionary $660 billion. I mean it freaking adds up to $3,456 Trillion. WTF. The u.s government spending is out of control. If health insurance covered 80%-90% for $100-$150 a month I would be happy to get it, but I used to pay over $600 a month which i canceled it and by next year it's going to be higher than this. The so called obamacare(False, cant create bills) or more like the republican corporate care(democrat public option left out) is to phase out medicare in ten 10 years completely which is okay except that you will be paying freaking higher premiums than today and probably bankrupt a lot of people since everything like housing, rent, gas, electricity, water, going up while salaries are stagnant.
Romney refuses to answer any HARD questions. Obama refuses to answer them as well.
True.
They both are the same. Hooray for the new king, same as the old king!
They are NOT. They are LARGELY the same, with the exception of a few issues where they clearly are NOT (taxes, gay rights, health care)
While I very much see your point, just because 80% of the issues have been cemented by a repulsive silent agreement between two parties, is still no reason to state that they are the same. There is still a lesser evil and a greater evil here, even though it isn't as much of a difference as I would have hoped.
Most people who run around trying to claim they will vote third party or that everyone should because of benefit X, are generally either pouting because their "cause" wasn't championed by one of the major party candidates and trying to "teach them a lesson" or they are plants pretending to be for third parties in an attempt to weaken their guy's opponent's chances.
They have heard all the reasoning to why it is rubbish to vote third party. They know it lets the guy most unlike them win. They know that a third party president will be unable to effect any change and it would in fact be one thing that would unit republicans and democrats in making sure they the third party president gets nothing done.
So from the way I see it, they know full well what the effect is and are actually trying to perpetuate it.
If Obama is so "knowledgeable" about foreign relations, how is it that our foreign relations are in such dire straights?
No improvement in the middle east, and in fact things are generally worse than when he entered office. No improvement in regards to ally or "non-allies" like Iran and Pakistan, and very soon things will be worse with Iran.
Lots of promises, no deliveries and even Libya is significantly tarnished as a victory. Woo-Hoo that we managed to assassinate a key leader of Al-Quieda, but they are apparently organized enough to still do significant harm.
The one thing Obama could have done a lot earlier was to cut losses in Afghanistan and realize we really could not do more there than already has been done. But he was fully in for a surge there because it worked in Iraq, without seeing the differences.
I don't feel like the world at large is at all better place for having Obama as a steward, why would I want to escalate the train wreck that is already not in very slow motion at all? The fact is the U.S. is simply too powerful to sit out world politics but Obama is just not suited to figure out how to wield that power to positive effect.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
But Nader wouldn't have received all the non-Bush votes, just as Perot wouldn't have received all the non Bush Sr./Dole votes. But the inverse is true. Gore would have received nearly all (I would guess 99% with the remaining 1% just not voting) of the Nader votes and Bush Sr./Dole would have received those Perot votes.
There's historical precedent for this conclusion: The elections of 1912 is a particularly good example, where the Republican vote was split between Theodore Roosevelt running independently and Howard Taft the defending Republican incumbent.
The biggest problem is that our system of government is outdated, inefficient, and ineffective. But to criticize the U.S. Constitution is taboo (funny how the most staunch defenders of this antiquated document know the least about it). Voting for a third party candidate is just voting against one's interests and will continue to be the case as long as our government is run by this ridiculous bicameral legislative system and selects the head of state through an electoral college. The only hope for this to happen is for the average citizen to become better educated and thus better able to see through the nationalistic bullshit of worshipping the U.S. Constitution and the men who founded this country. That's why I'm voting for Obama - I don't think he'll enact the specific changes I would like to see, nor do I think he'd have the power to do so if he wanted to - but he does prioritize education, which sets America on the path to overcoming the chains of our federalist system. In an era when technology is steadily making manual labor less necessary, this country cannot afford to have as many uneducated, unskilled people running amok as it currently does.
It doesn't matter if people think in the terms of the 'lesser of two evils' or not. The average voter is a moron. It doesn't matter what they think. Statement votes to third party candidates will do nothing to better this country. Voting for Obama does.
"From the depths of my skeptical and rationalist soul, I ask the Lord to protect me from California touchie-feeliedom."
I'll settle for slower--slower means we have time to turn around.
I agree the China pissing contest is ridiculous, but. . .
Sky-rocketing crime rate
Any statistics to back that one up? This isn't up to date, but as you can see, the general trend of crime since its peak in the early 90s has been that of steady decline.
Tanking of morality
What does this mean and how does the president have any sway over this? "Morality laws" are generally outside the domain of the federal government as a power reserved for the states. It's unconstitutional for the federal government to make prostitution and gambling illegal, for example (hence Nevada). If the courts hadn't broadened the interpretation of the Commerce Clause to its furthest extent, drug prohibition would also be unconstitutional. How many people here would really want a Mormon to have any sway over legislating and enforcing morality? There's a reason sane people don't live in Utah.
"From the depths of my skeptical and rationalist soul, I ask the Lord to protect me from California touchie-feeliedom."
You guys have a system where third (and fourth, etc.) parties get low single digit percentages in presidential elections and rarely elect any representatives to either of the two legislative houses. And it wasn't always that way.
Your problems won't be fixed by getting rid of the electoral college or some sort of proportional representation in the legislative houses. The entire country is brainwashed into voting for "their" party. That's what has to change.
That attitude is what's wrong with US elections. Vote your conscience. Sure, it might cause your least favourite party to win this election, but how big is the difference anyway? And if you keep up the strategic voting crap, nothing will ever change.
well, one is a lot more publicly religious than the other. I don't like that. I actually hate that! its a showstopper for me.
the other keeps his religion in check.
this is not just them, either; its representative of their parties.
vote NO on american taliban.
that one issue will get in our way of so much progress. please don't send us backwards again! we had that with bush and the other republicans since reagan. enough with the christian bullshit, already! we are a mixed nation and we like it that way.
now, bring republicans back about 20 or 30 yrs and we might have something. before they got all preachy and holier than thou.
but the current R crowd, makes me sick. physically sick. that says a lot.
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
That will not happen with a Republican in office, the press will be more than eager to ask the tough questions
were you alive during the bush era?
he got more passes than your favorite football star.
tell me again how the 'liberal press' really socks it to the R's. I could use some good fantasy about now.
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
were you alive during the bush era?
he got more passes than your favorite football star.
Were you sleeping or what?
Bush was hammered on every small detail, every small flub in a way that Obama (and even Biden) have never been. The media attacked him constantly before and during the Iraq surge, until they realized it was working. Nary a peep against Obama's Afghanistan surge, before during or after even as it fails.
I'm not saying it was wrong. I'm saying it happened then and happened not at all for Obama, even with the most dire of mistakes.
That is just one of countless examples. As I said if you care to look almost all journalists self-identify with Democrats and if you think they can overcome that group-think and partisan outlook I have a few failing major news oriented magazines to sell you!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
but rather I want to flush as much corruption out of Washington DC as possible.
[head asplodes]
mate, you are one confused dude. voting for the party of corruption in the hope that they'll clean up corruption?
do you wash your face with mud to get it clean?
the R's are the leaders in screwing the public out of what little services we have left after the R raid on the middle class and poor. there hasn't been an R in recent memory that has helped anyone but lobbiests and themselves!
fix corruption? voting R?
you must be drunk or stupid. I hope its the first one, because its only temporary.
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
You haven't actually met any journalists, have you? How precisely do you explain the 6 years where journalists were giving Bush a free ride without asking any particularly pointed questions about the various crimes against humanity and violations of the constitution?
The reality is that the media does a piss poor job lately of serving as a watch dog until things go way off the rails.
And trust me, if a journalist had to choose between getting the scoop on something embarrassing that Obama did, they would go for it, it's mostly just right wing nutters that seem to think that the liberals have some sort of lock on the media.
This is true in the short run. But in the long run, voting for a third party causes the major parties to move in that direction to win these voters back.
Very true, and voting third party can also have other benefits. You just have to do it smartly.
You only risk letting "the greater evil" win if you live in a swing state. If your state is solidly for one of the major parties, you can safely vote third party without risking the vote affecting the major parties. So for example, living in California, I can assume that Obama will win my state not matter how I vote, and so I can vote for whatever third party I feel like without worrying about "spoiling" anything (depending on which I would otherwise support, either victory is assured or it is impossible, either way there's no point wasting effort fighting about it).
So if you live in a swing state, yes, vote the lesser of the two evils who are most likely to win. If you don't, however, voting for your preferred third party will get you several other benefits, besides the one quoted above (major party platforms shift to try to recapture the third party vote):
- It increases the size of the third party supporter bloc (both for that party, and for the concept of third parties), which helps promote the third party (and the concept of third parties) even if they didn't win. Since they weren't going to win anyway, and your non-swing state was going the way it did anyway, this is pure win at no risk here.
But besides that obvious benefit:
- If people in your non-swing state start doing this who would otherwise vote for your state's shoe-in candidate (e.g. if California liberals start voting Green instead of Democrat), then that eventually makes your state a swing state, and suddenly your vote matters a whole lot more! This combined with parent poster's point about major parties courting the third party vote, but even better: since you're not a swing state, they care a lot about capturing your vote, giving your preferred third party's platform a major influence on them.
- That second point can however go the other way, e.g. if California conservatives start voting Libertarian, that just entrenches California more firmly as a Democrat state, with a large Democrat bloc vs smaller Republican and Libertarian blocs. However, since (for example) California is already a firmly Democrat state, you can feel free to take this all the way and eat up all the Republican votes you want, go right ahead and kill the Republican party in California, you won't be making any difference in who wins there so still no harm in letting the "greater evil" win since (for a conservative who ranks Libertarians > Republicans > Democrats) they would have anyway. So you can feel free to "spoil" the "lesser evil" all you want, and if you can manage it, go on to supplant them, e.g. turn the California election into Democrats vs Libertarians instead of Democrats vs Republicans.
Combining all these effects, voting third party in a non-swing state can have major influences. To use my own state for an example again, if we assume (perhaps questionably) that a large bloc of liberals generally prefer Greens > Democrats > Republicans, and a large bloc of conservatives generally prefer Libertarians > Republicans > Democrats, then if those people all follow this strategy instead of abstaining or voting for "the lesser evil", California could end up with a more notable Green party, Democrats eagerly adopting a lot of Green policies to try to keep the liberal vote, and at least a much larger Libertarian party if not one wholly supplanting the Republican party, and Republicans eagerly adopting a lot of Libertarian policies.
Suddenly you've got something almost resembling a healthy multi-party system, all without anyone ever risking "the greater evil" getting into office. And all this in what's now quite possibly a swing state, so very influential on national politics, and either way having an inevitable run-on effect o
-Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
With a track record like that, who wouldn't be in favor?*
You do realize that "violent revolution" involves killing people and not music or flowers, right?
*Eye roll
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Too bad nobody mentioned that tonight Democracy Now was hosting an #ExtendTheDebate event....
"It's the Law of the Universe, and I'm the sheriff." Slash-cott 2/10-2/17
It's well documented that a vast majority of journalists are registered Democrats
And their bosses -- the people who own the big media empires -- are registered Republicans.
Who do you think has the bigger influence, the boss or the peons who work for him?
-Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
Just from all the "fuck politics, I'm going back to being a libertarian" pouting I'm seeing here. Just like right after the 2008 election.
As for the actual DEBATE, anyone catch Romney's comment about Syria important to Iran as their only shipping route to the ocean? Or, how about how he went from "the Arab spring sucked, we shouldn't have done it" to "I agree with deposing Mubarak." He also went back to defending the $5/$2 trillion tax-cut/defense spending hike he DENIED in the 1st debate.
Also notable was Romney getting called out on his Big Flashy Numbers approach to military spending which works fantastic when you're cheerleading for your base, but really poorly when there's someone to challenge you. OMG did you know our Air Force is smaller than it was in 1947???? When we had tens of thousands of prop jobs and 1st generation jets as opposed to a mere hundreds of supersonic modern fighters with state-of-the-art electronics???? Oh noes!!!
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
Actually, I said you belong in another group you didn't list. As I see it, you are a buffoon speaking about crap you have little to no understanding about. You are using logical fallacies and lies in order to do it too. If anyone has their head up their ass, it would in fact be you as reality doesn't match your viewpoints.
It's biased and selective with lies peppered through it. Did you actually think you could post it without someone calling you on it? Anyone that thinks that is an accurate representation of either party is delusional. Your escape to it being what the other parties say about each other pulls you from it, but if you didn't know it was untrue, you do not escape being considered an idiot.
You see, in this you have bought into the bullshit. Romney's not any more pro corporation then any other president has been including Obama's policies. The differences is in how the policies attack the problems. Romney's approach is to make the economic environment cheaper and profitable so businesses can work on their own, Obama's is to give rewards to selected businesses through manipulations of the government and government handouts. This is obvious in that big businesses are actually supporting Obama and the democrats. Something that would be completely contrary to what you would expect if Romney was being so much more pro corporation if it was true.
Obama's support for gay marriage wasn't spontaneous at all either. It came timed right near an election and even had Biden who gets away with gaffs all the time because people think he is a senile old man, float the trial balloon out there to test which way he should commit to. The onion actually has a funny piece on his anti, then almost, then full support when the polls say it would help his political ambitions.
As for Obama's health care, the quagmire of it all is that it could have been implemented to much the same degree without any of the BS involved. A simple law that says, not more ceilings on treatment, no more pre-existing condition disqualifications, and insurance companies must offer coverage to individuals at the lowest rate offered to any company or otherwise defined pool of people that the insurance company offers.
Raising the number of doctors available will not decrease costs. This is because there are hidden variables involved that are mainly due to government being involved in healthcare in the first place. Medicaid and medicare pay not the actual charge the hospital gives them, but an average charge for the treatment received. If your local hospital normally charges $50 for a band-aid and the average in your area is $35, medicaid and medicare will pay based on the $35 costs. It's federal law and the country is divided between 4 or 5 areas in which the costs averaging is done and a billing code has been developed to cover this. Also, it is against federal law for the hospital to charge the patient using Medicare or Medicaid the difference in costs- if they want to take the government programs, the payment based averaging has to be accepted as payment in full except in certain limited situations not worth getting into here. So the
Ok, say you are a rich person. Would you rather a) live in a fancy house with slums all around where you need an armed guard whenever you have to travel outside of your closed complex, or b) live in a fancy house with decent houses all around you without there being any slums and without having to pay taxes to support people who don't work because the country is wealthy enough that everybody can make a decent living with a reasonable amount of effort?
To understand the mindset of the really wealthy, realize that if it meant that they had a fancier house, they'd choose option (a) above. The ability to be conspicuously much better than the people around you is exceptionally attractive due to the way that primate dominance hierarchies work; absolute wealth matters nowhere near as much as relative wealth.
This is, of course, stupid. True though.
"Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
And ran the country into a ditch.
550 goddamn votes in Florida and you'd see what difference not electing Bush the Lesser would have made, kemosabe.
Would we? Here are a couple of views:
The History of the U.S. – If Al Gore Became President
If Al Gore Had Won in 2000
Here are a few of mine:
Al Qaida was attacking United States embassies and the Cole under the Clinton administration.
It seems pretty certain that 9/11 would still have happened.
If 9/11 happens, it's pretty certain a global war against Al Qaida follows, and very likely war against the Taliban in Afghanistan. Invasion? Probably.
Economic crashes? Of course. The internet-centric business meltdown is virtually certain to have occurred, and the housing bubble not much less so. The internet-centric business meltdown was the result of trends started in the Clinton administration. The actual wrong-doing for Enron occurred under the Clinton administration. The housing bubble was a result of policies with broad bi-partisan support.
Iraq? That is more of a wildcard. The US policy calling for regime change in Iraq was set under the Clinton administration. It is virtually certain that there would have been conflicts with Iraq, including armed action. Would it have lead to invasion and occupation of Iraq? Somewhere along the line of less likely to no. There almost certainly would have been bombings though, probably a lot more of them to compensate for the lack of ground forces. Saddams army in 2003 was strong enough to hold Iraq against rebellion that wasn't aided externally. It seems pretty certain that either Saddam or one of his sons would still be in power. They might even have thrown off sanctions due to the "Oil for Food" program bribes and the loss of interest in the world community in containing him. Saddam with no sanctions means a Saddam rearming and continuing to support terrorism (no, not Al Qaida). He might ever do it with a vengence. Would Iraqis be better off? Very unlikely. Saddam used the food money to build palaces and buy weapons while the infrastructure crumbled, and people perished. That is from simple neglect. Saddam's government filled Iraq with large numbers of mass graves. Had Saddam's regime not been overthrown, the killing would have continued.
You may recall that Saddam had to restrain his sons, they were crueler than he was.
How Bad Was Saddam’s Son?
. . . Latif’s first lesson was to learn how to not react in disgust or become sick at Hussein regime cruelty. He was taken to a viewing room holding thousands of videos of torture sessions.
Saddam’s son had learned the same way. “Uday told me whenever he seemed weak or squeamish as a child his father would beat him with an iron bar and then force him to watch videos of prisoners being tortured.”
It worked. “Just wait until I become president,” Uday promised, “I’ll be crueler than my father ever was. You mark my words. You’ll yearn for the days of Saddam
Hussein.”
Now, read this carefully. If there is no US invasion of Iraq, there is not the same opportunity for an Al Qaida supported and led insurgency in Iraq that drew Al Qaida members from around the world to Iraq. That movement generated intelligence and provided opport
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Better educated, yes. Less nationalism, yes. More American, yes. Before you say that is a contradiction, let me explain that our American ancestry, how brief it may be, is written upon empathy, and embodies faith in ourselves, our sisters and brothers, and even our enemies.
Shall I remind you of the introduction? I think many need to be reminded of it.
"We the people of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessing of Liberty to ourselves and the Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
Read that carefully. Notice the second half of it. How does that fair with modern-day Republicans (whatever fucking hybrid of nationalism and fascism they are)? You see, the wisest and oldest generations alive still have a parent who remembers the days of Lincoln. The *real* Republican party. Hell, you don't have to reach so far back, the Republican party today calls Ronald Reagan a socialist.
Now, let's go back to the very beginning. Let's just go back to the words and thoughts of Thomas Jefferson or to the atheists who founded this country (all you /. kids will get a kick out of that-- grow up). Thomas Jefferson's real issue was poverty. Maybe some historian can chime in, but I will speak from a philosophical point-of-view. Jefferson dared to consider the problem of poverty at a Christ-like level; and it is safe to say he would be both supportive and doubtful of the modern-day social programs we have. However, it wasn't just the politicians but the writers and poets that mattered most in the shaping of the USofA. Take Emerson for instance. Or rather, take the Iroqouis and the great white tree of peace.
It really baffles me how my peers are so detached with what a democracy or a republic is like *in action*. The president is merely to stand for all of us, with all our contradictions and harmonies, and to be a grounded pillar to counter our bickering houses and senates; it is more a position of responsibility than it is of power.
It is so fucking disgusting that social issues, just like Obama had stated as a young senator, are used to "create a wedge" between us. Remember that? That's when I knew he was going to be elected. He was greeted with an undying ovation.
This is a scattered rant in response to a rant, but I'll still post. I leave you with One thing else that is missing is objective journalism. I dare say, it is the primary power we've lost in balancing the government for the people.
America has a lot of problems right now.
You failed to mention one of the most serious ones.
To a certain group of people, that's not a problem, it's a feature. That same group of people is certainly a lot more capable of influencing legislation than you or me, so it's likely to be "enhanced" in the future.
People keep saying that "one is just as bad as the other" when referring to US elections. But I would suggest that while Obama may not be effective at fighting income inequality, Romney is a poster-boy for it.
The real problem here is that most people seem to treat income inequality as an annoyance, not a real problem. As previously mentioned, some treat it as a feature to be furthered. But, and here it becomes My Opinion, you can't have the kind of high-energy economy the US had in the last half of the 20th century with the kind of income inequality we have not. A high-energy economy requires an engaged and enabled middle class.
Beyond that, economically speaking, a society with an engaged and enabled middle class will a feudal society, any day, hands-down. Think about the Cold War, for instance. That the US is systematically and deliberately destroying it's middle class reveals the actions of its "job creators" as being motivated by pure greed, rather than "enlightened self-interest by a group of very capable people."
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.