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Wayland 1.0 Released, Not Yet Ready To Replace X11

An anonymous reader writes "After being talked about for four years, Wayland 1.0 was released today. The Wayland 1.0 release doesn't mark it yet as being ready for Linux desktop usage but just being API/protocol stable for future expansion. Wayland will now maintain backwards compatibility going forward, but how much longer will it take to replace X11 on the Linux desktop? Quite a while seems likely."

455 comments

  1. Hopefully another 25 years or more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    X11 doesn't need replacing, and few need a replacement for X11 for any reason that doesn't boil down to not understanding X11.

    1. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I guess all of the X11 developers that are the ones developing Wayland don't understand X11 that well. You should send them a link to the classes you're teaching.

    2. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by colin_faber · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually it sort of does. Theres so much legacy garbage in the current X protocol that just wastes resources and makes it nearly impossible to maintain.

      As I don't actively maintain X I have no stake in this, but if it helps to motivate new generations of developers to dive into thats great.

      I can also note that I think the model Wayland is employing seems more sane, given what we've learned over the years of model and X driver development (DRI anyone?).

    3. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not you again. Wayland is being built by X developers, and several other prominent X developers have said it is a good thing.

      Would you say that you understand X11 A) better, or B) worse, than the people who actually write code for Xorg?

    4. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Unfortunately, developers are the second worst group for understanding what users need. The only part of X11 that people need is network transparent remote display, but that's the one part that the developers are absolutely hell bent on removing.

    5. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I can also note that I think the model Wayland is employing seems more sane, given what we've learned over the years of model and X driver development

      Well I can note that I think client-side decorations is so much bollocks.
      Wayland seems to abdicate responsibility on a lot of stuff that really needs to work across the desktop consistently, and that X was solving commendably.

    6. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by mellon · · Score: 1

      Well, it certainly doesn't need replacing with another X server. What it needs replacing with is something a little less complex and wonderful.

    7. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by mdhoover · · Score: 1

      +1. No remote display, no dice.

    8. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And how exactly does remote X with a modern UI toolkit differ from VNC?

    9. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by fikx · · Score: 1

      A)

      no question. I use the code, they make it. car analogy: who understands a car better (what it should do and how): the engineer or the driver?

      --
      AB HOC POSSUM VIDERE DOMUM TUUM
    10. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by RightwingNutjob · · Score: 2

      It's native to the windowing system on both the local and remote machine and there is absolutely nothing I need to do to either system to pop up a remote display other than insert a 'DISPLAY=remote-host:0.0' in front of the command line.

    11. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by tqk · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I guess all of the X11 developers that are the ones developing Wayland don't understand X11 that well.

      "Don't understand X11 that well", I don't know (though I'd doubt they don't understand X). As for whether X11 needs replacing; not here, no.

      I do worry that they're ignoring the ideals of X, and focusing too much on cellphone/*pad interfaces, as opposed to the original X ideal (any device *should* be able to handle it, regardless of what your particular prejudices might be).

      Does Fluxbox run on Wayland? If so, I'll try it.

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    12. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by smash · · Score: 1

      X11 remote display can be added via a daemon. Like it is with OS X, Windows, etc.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    13. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by tqk · · Score: 1

      Theres so much legacy garbage in the current X protocol that just wastes resources and makes it nearly impossible to maintain.

      I've heard much the same thing said about rxvt vs. xterm. I like xterm, and its devs have done brilliant stuff over the years keeping it relevant, fast, and working. rxvt does 99.999% of what xterm does, and does it well (except for corner cases).

      Why do I feel like I'm stirring entrails?

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    14. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      rxvt may do 99.9999% of what xterm do, but xterm does less than 30% of what urxvt does. Not saying that real transparency or background blur is essential, but some of the features it add became to me.

    15. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Or, we could just keep X. Much better.

    16. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by anomaly256 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Remote vanilla X11 over even today's internet is fucking slow as balls and about as painful as being kicked in them. Even on a lan it can be pain if your client is generating too many unneeded events (try eclipse over ssh x11 forwarding some time). X11 does facilitate the use of, say, NX and VNC though to mitigate the problem. Does Wayland? If so then bring it on I say. As long as the end result is the same or better, how is it a bad thing?

    17. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > any device *should* be able to handle it

      How can you tell that someone has never developed for cellphones/*pad? Guess...

    18. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Unfortunately, this is not what people are objecting to. The problem is not that you cannot map X11 on-top of Wayland windows and run remote applications displaying on Wayland, the problem is that you cannot transparently display Wayland-windows on another machine.

      On OS X and on Windows, it is not possible to display the native apps on a remote machine using X11.

      The lack of network transparency will lead to every developer needing to ship two different applications, one linked to Wayland and the other to X11, then everyone need to download the correct app and install the one depending on their machine, i.e. on the machine that will be accessed remotely, install the X11 version on others install the Wayland version. Sure, we all know that you usually use GTK/Qt for applications, and while some of the issues could be solved by the GTK and Qt developers by cleaver dynamic linking to the display manager, often this works so-so and some apps will not be compatible with this, so you still need to run double testing for all your applications.

      They should have started with defining the Wayland system in a way that was network-transparent, they could even have updated the protocols and made it more suitable for modern applications (i.e instead of sending delta-bitmaps, send the scenegraph updates for the window instead).

    19. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are reworking core protocol and APIs. This is not what users need, it is what developers (on both client and server sides) need.

      Wayland developers are not "hell bent on removing network transparent remote display". The fact that you claim this shows you have no idea what is going on and what the issues are. Look at the FAQ on the wayland page if you want to educate yourself about that.

    20. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Somewhere in that supposed .0001% is things like, perform faster under heavy system load. I've tried dozens of terminals over the years and it never takes more than a couple weeks to send screaming back to xterm for one reason or another.

    21. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      As an X11 user (developer of client apps) I would say I understand the X11 features that I love better than X.org developers.

      Note that X.org rewrote the implementation of X11, but they aren't the ones that designed it, and re-implementing well doesn't automatically mean they will have insights into the API design, or meet my needs better with the new one.

    22. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      All of that may be true, but for me I'm way more likely to open on a remote display when both hosts are on the same LAN. And why would I want to slow it down with SSH when it is all local?

      An X11-aware app like emacs even has it in the default GUI menu to open a "frame" on a remote X. It is nice, I can have the same buffer open on two computers at opposite sides of the room, whichever end of the room I am at I can type code. No syncing, no fuss.

      I don't really care whatever fancy new what-the-what they have that they love, I'll switch when there is no longer an X11 that compiles on a modern *nix. And that will be, oh, never.

    23. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by anomaly256 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Never say never :)

      I hear you, honestly, but do keep in mind that sometimes change can be a good thing too. If they do it right, and it works everywhere, and gives you everything you had before but more.. why hold back? Sure, stay with what works for you for now but don't write off your options forever-more just because they're not there yet. I remember a time when I wouldn't own any phone but a Nokia, and wouldn't use a laptop because they were too underpowered and the screens were terrible. I wouldn't use anything that wasn't x86 and 32bit due to compatibility and stability. I wouldn't use wifi when ethernet was available because it was way slower and unreliable. I wouldn't consider using the internet on a phone due to cost and performance. All that's changed now and I couldn't be happier that it has

    24. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by aaron552 · · Score: 2

      It's native to the windowing system on both the local and remote machine

      I thought that modern linux toolkits (GTK and Qt) and windows managers (eg. kwin and metacity) render windows entirely offscreen and just tell X to draw the resulting pixmap. Remote X just sends that bitmap over the network to the remote host. There seem to be little efficiency to be gained by using remote X over VNC in this case

      there is absolutely nothing I need to do to either system to pop up a remote display other than insert a 'DISPLAY=remote-host:0.0' in front of the command line.

      You need to have a command line to start with. If you're starting from nothing, opening a VNC session is not really harder than opening an SSH session.

      --
      I had a sig once. It was lost in the great storm of '09.
    25. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Yomers · · Score: 2

      In my experience this network transparency of X11 is not really usable over the internet anyways - it's just too slow. I'm using x2go for linux remote desktop. Maybe it's useful over LAN, but is there many people who use it? Do you use it yourself?

    26. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Hmm... they believe huge libraries of obsolete and unused code is a good use of limited storage space available?

    27. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by sjames · · Score: 2

      For one thing, I get just the application window, not a whole extra desktop in a window. I can freely cut and paste between the remote application's UI and a local one.

    28. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by jones_supa · · Score: 1

      Good comment. As a sidenote, when I looked at your list, I think right now SSD is a technology that is soonly becoming viable. It has been unreliable and expensive, but that is changing. There are probably other technologies too.

    29. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Odd, because I have been managing remote machines for many years (> 10) remotely. Including over 1Mb ADSL, ISDN, even dial up. The point is not that it works as well as a local desktop, but that it works remotely when that is what you need. Our standard demo to make Windows admins jaws drop used to be running something like the Linux version of ET over the network - there you go, full remote 3D display. Trickery required: none.

    30. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by ls671 · · Score: 1

      I can cut and paste OK from VNC to other windows. I use a mix of both VNC and remote X depending on where I am working and where I need to connect. On laptops, when moving, remote X is unusable because of the lost connection problem.

      http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3202975&cid=41738551

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    31. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I remember a time when I wouldn't own any phone but a Nokia, and wouldn't use a laptop because they were too underpowered and the screens were terrible. I wouldn't use anything that wasn't x86 and 32bit due to compatibility and stability. I wouldn't use wifi when ethernet was available because it was way slower and unreliable. I wouldn't consider using the internet on a phone due to cost and performance. All that's changed now and I couldn't be happier that it has

      The was never a stability problem with 64bit arch. Only a compatibility problem if you had to deal with companies which withheld 64bit builds of their drivers. For the rest of the world, transition from 32bit to 64bit computing was easy.

      And, laptops are still terrible compared to desktops. Internet on a phone is still terrible and expensive as well.

    32. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Yomers · · Score: 1

      Yep, we will lose this bragging point, but does it really matter? Not for me, Windows admins jaws - what are they good for? Yes, it is great future on paper, it works, but it's slow. Maybe latency is the main factor here - my ping times to my servers rarely less than 400 ms. Anyway, this functionality is needed by low percentage of geeks, I'm not even talking about average users. Managing servers is much more convenient by ssh - I do not need remote desktop for it. When I do need remote desktop - I need it to be responsive and support adjustable levels of lossy compression. I found that x2go is currently the best and easiest solution for my needs.

    33. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by dbIII · · Score: 1
      VNC also fits that slow as dog balls description at times even if you trim it down to 256 colours in situations where X works (and of course vice versa - X sucks in other situations). Sometimes you just lose with both if there is too much graphical stuff going on.

      Does Wayland?

      No. The reason we get these discussions about Wayland is that it's a framebuffer system and getting the graphics sent over a network is not considered to be important and is not part of the design. All we've got is speculation about screen scraping and exporting the graphics with something else looking at Wayland's framebuffer from the outside. From what I've seen it's a SVGAlib thing designed to run with newer hardware - a good idea but no replacement for X by any stretch because it does other stuff. Six months ago it didn't even have a window manager (so one full screen app at a time) and some guy here was going on about how it was "faster" despite not actually being able to run any sort of test, but I'm not sure where it is now. I wish them luck but the time for claims is when they can be proven.

    34. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Note that X.org rewrote the implementation of X11, but they aren't the ones that designed it

      Actually some of them are (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Packard)

    35. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Yomers · · Score: 2

      But yeah, it would be great if they would keep network transparency in Wayland but made a new protocol for it, fast enough for normal usage over the internet, supporting adjustable lossy compression, making coffee, BJ on demand and add a few other useful futures. Just wait, let me raise my army of Atomic Mutant Coders, it will be their second task.

    36. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 2

      Agreed ; it's slow, even over a LAN. It's fine as a stop-gap measure (like for VirtualBox, where the GUI VM configurator is is much easier to use than the command line), but it chugs.

      For serious remote desktop usage on Linux, the only thing I've tried that's actually any good is NX, although that is the only thing I've tried. Microsoft's RDP protocol is excellent. NX is the only thing that comes close to it.

      I suppose I might be making some mistake with how I've got it set up, but I've never seen applications run over ssh -X perform any other way but clunky and slow.

    37. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Facts? A pox on your facts, and a pox on you, sir.

    38. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Warning, sliders spotted! In WHICH universe is xterm fast? Try "time cat " on xterm and something sane like Konsole and you'll see for yourself that xterm is multiple times slower.

    39. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      send screaming back to xterm for one reason or another.

      No you don't. Didn't you read all the posts up there? Xterm uses "legacy" protocols which are full of "cruft" and "slow" and "legacy". And noone uses "legacy" stuff anymore. So clearly you don't use xterm because of legacy.

      And if you do (and you don't because noone uses "legacy" API calls any more) then you're in the rare 1% and you can go jump because "normal users" (whoever the hell they are) don't need "legacy" things. Oh and those legacy cruft ridden bits of code which you don't use and are paged out onto disk are actually taking up positively kilobytes of RAM which make my Sun 3/60 really REALLY slow.

      $ ps -ef | grep xterm | wc -l
      54

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    40. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by DrXym · · Score: 3, Insightful
      X11 absolutely needs replacing. It was designed for the time when a desktop consisted of 2D rectangles controlled by a damage model, where fonts were raster graphics and apps were content to draw graphics with simple primitives. It's simply not suited to for a modern compositing desktop. Much of it isn't even used any more - GTK and QT render their stuff to surfaces, and use GL extensions to recompose the display. X11 is just the arcane glue that holds all this together and imposes its own overheads through extra context switches. It should be done away with.

      It doesn't stop X11 from running as a client over Wayland for those who need a remote app and working in practically the same way as it does now. But it does mean the vast majority of people do not need to run it and do not incur the performance penalties from doing so.

    41. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by DrXym · · Score: 1

      So exactly why does Wayland preclude running remotely? The answer of course is it doesn't. Nor does it preclude somebody running X11 transparently over Wayland (just like X11 will run over Windows / OS X) if they need it but sparing the rest of us who don't need it.

    42. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by ancienthart · · Score: 1

      *sighs*
      I hope this doesn't end up like:

      * Enlightenment 16 and 17
      * Gimp and GEGL
      * oss, alsa, jack, esd and pulseaudio
      * KDE 3 to KDE 4
      * Gnome 2 to Gnome 3
      I.e. lots of promise and hype, then a looooong time before the new version becomes "useable", if at all.
      I now tend to automatically roll my eyes whenever I hear an opensource community mention "rewrite" or "replacement".

    43. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd love to hear how you add X11 remote display to Windows, because a lot of people with corporate Linux desktops have an extra machine just to run Outlook. If that Outlook could be run on a Windows server (one server should be able to support plenty of Outlook processes), and show on those Linux desktop machines via X11 remote display, that's a LOT of money that doesn't need to be tied up in those machines with no other purpose than running Outlook.

      No, RDP or VNC doesn't cut it, because then you're either doing real work (RDP window minimized) OR paying attention to the meetings your boss has just scheduled (RDP window covering the real work).

    44. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by moonbender · · Score: 1

      I'm using eclipse running on another host in the LAN via X11 every day. It works fine. There's no appreciable difference to running it locally. Granted, this is on a fast LAN that's somewhat tailored to do this well.

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      Switch back to Slashdot's D1 system.
    45. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      I.e. lots of promise and hype, then a looooong time before the new version becomes "useable", if at all. I now tend to automatically roll my eyes whenever I hear an opensource community mention "rewrite" or "replacement".

      Well yes. I think the GEGL thing might have been worth it, but time will tell. PulseAudio seems to be stable now, bringing features that even FreeBSD had years ago...

      Anyhow I agree. Basically, these things happen when the older generation goes away or fets bored. It's definitely a case of the latter. I've read things by Keith Packard who clearly knows a lot about X11, but he should be really ashamed of himself about the pure FUD he's been spewing about X11 and Wayland.

      I also simply cannot understand how someone who spent so long on X11 could even consider design decisions like client side window decorations. It is utterly baffling to me, and seems to be supported by statetments that are outright unsupportable never mind FUDdy.

      Basically as far as I can tell, they've got bored of hacking X11 and want to level the ground and start from scratch, like so many programmers want to do. That's great for them and huge fun, I'm sure, but their position allows them to cause serious damage along the way.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    46. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by delt0r · · Score: 2

      I use it all the time over LAN and yes even the internet. I don't find it slow. But then i am not trying to play quake or anything like that.

      --
      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
    47. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by ancienthart · · Score: 1

      Not to mention that in new "cleaner" code, they have to go and rediscover all the edge cases again. Which of course means the code starts clean and then quickly gets messy, prompting calls to clean up the new code by rewriting everything again.
      Wash, rinse, repeat.

    48. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Per+Wigren · · Score: 1

      PulseAudio seems to be stable now

      What that really means is "The ALSA drivers and distributions' default configurations seem to be stable now", much thanks to the hard work of the PulseAudio developers. With good drivers and properly configured, PulseAudio has been stable for a long time.

      --
      My other account has a 3-digit UID.
    49. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Hatta · · Score: 2

      We ran X on terminals far weaker than the average cell phone in the 90s.

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      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    50. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by AVee · · Score: 1

      RDP can share a single application, rdesktop supports application sharing mode. You can run a single Outlook window over RDP on you linux box, works like a charm.

    51. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Hatta · · Score: 1

      X11 does facilitate the use of, say, NX and VNC though to mitigate the problem. Does Wayland? If so then bring it on I say

      Wayland doesn't mitigate anything. It solves the problem by completely eliminating the feature.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    52. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Logger · · Score: 1

      I love the concept of network transparency, but in many cases VNC-style screen scraping seems faster. I've exported the display of apps from our Linux farm to my desktop. However it is painfully slow. VNC on the other hand operates with barely any noticeable lag. Exporting the display of a Linux app from one machine in the farm to another seems to work fine though.

      It seems that network transparency in X requires a very high bandwidth and very low latency network connection, where VNC does better with less bandwidth.

      I hope they maintain network transparency in Wayland. But I also hope they can improve it so I don't need VNC anymore.

    53. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by morgauxo · · Score: 1

      No, that's what the developers say all over the page but it doesn't answer the problem at all. Once applications are targeted for Wayland rather than targeted for X your X daemon inside Wayland is useless.

    54. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Lennie · · Score: 1

      It's not that the legacy is crap.

      It is just that the modern world looks different than it did all those years ago.

      The choice for the number of bits an in IPv4 address wasn't wrong at the time, but we need mode bits if we want to Internet to keep growing.

      It's the same with the GPUs of today, the best way to talk to them is not the way X11 works.

      Compositing seems to be what the creators of Wayland want to do.

      Sure you can do compositing with X11, but it isn't ideal. But compositing is what most systems already do. Compiz and KWin, GNOME3 and Unity all are doing compositing I believe.

      I think i read newer versions of Windows (since Vista ?) and Mac OS X also do compositing.

      If compositing is all you ever do, you don't need everything else from X11. Especially if that abstraction/code is in the "hotpath", the code paths which are the most performance critical.

      --
      New things are always on the horizon
    55. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by morgauxo · · Score: 1

      I use it over a LAN. I have a thin client in my garage, on my workbench. It's a nice little low power, 12V fanless PC with a very bare bones Debian. I turn it on and a moment later I have a graphical login to my main desktop. Why do the Wayland developers want to take this away from me?

      Also, I have used X over the internet in the past. It's a bit too slow IMHO when tunneled through SSH which is probably the most common way to secure it. I used to run openvpn though and it worked just fine through that. I only stopped using it because my router with the built in open vpn server died and I have not gotten around to replacing it. I intend to bring that back one of these days.

    56. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by morgauxo · · Score: 1

      I don't even do that. I have a dedicated X terminal in which I have modified the rc scripts so that I go right to a remote X login screen. All I do is turn it on and in a moment I am connected to my remote X desktop.

    57. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by morgauxo · · Score: 1

      But they are not doing it right, they are not giving us everything we had before. They are taking away one of the key features that made *nix plus X more useful than other alternatives.

    58. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by morgauxo · · Score: 1

      I have read the FAQ several times. Concerning network transparency it is nothing but doubletalk. Their answer is to run X on top of Wayland? Great, so one can run X applications remotely. If new applications and new versions of existing applications are written for Wayland rather than X then that is not even remotely useful. Even if only certain applications which might not run well remotely are targeted towards Wayland and everything else stays X forever.. that is not good. One person's opinion of what is usable and what isn't varies from another. LAN speeds vary, etc... It's better if anyone who wants to can try to run any application remotely and make up their own mind about usability.

      VNC and NX? First, unless those projects are modified to run Wayland Apps then that still only gets you X apps which Wayland aims to eventually deprecate. Even if they were modified to run Wayland apps... this is not the same. It is a window acting as a view into another computer with all remote windows locked inside of it, not a local window to a process on a remote computer.

    59. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...Theres so much legacy garbage in the current X protocol that just wastes resources and makes it nearly impossible to maintain. ...

      Will somebody puh-leez provide a list of all the wasted resources & legacy garbage that Wayland will save?

      My experience - most projects I've experienced trying to simplify something as flexible & complex as X ends up being just as complex as the original & either never rises to the utility of the first or becomes just a different pile of garbage.

    60. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by tqk · · Score: 1

      Oh and those legacy cruft ridden bits of code which you don't use and are paged out onto disk are actually taking up positively kilobytes of RAM which make my Sun 3/60 really REALLY slow.

      [Is this sarcasm? Or am I even slower than I think I am this morning?] Well, there's your problem! Geez, Sun video has *always* sucked (I once owned a U30). When I was first playing around with Linux on an i486 peecee, then was introduced to a current Sun workstation, I couldn't believe how pathetic it was. Max eight colors, or something?!? Are you kidding me?!? The crappy video artifacts brought out by Linux & *BSD on Sun hardware was pathetic.

      I must admit, I'm a bit confused reading this thread at the moment (it's early for me; I was up late). However, who could possibly care that a terminal is slow? I've never seen my CPU spike trying to dump chars to a screen or scroll its contents. The stuff I run from that CLI spikes the CPU; not *rxvt, not xterm, ...

      For me, whether I use *rxvt or xterm depends on what I'm running in it, and how that looks in *rxvt vs. xterm, and no, I don't kanything, and gterm is just insulting (yeah, prejudiced wrt both, sorry).

      More Scotch ..., er coffee.

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    61. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by pak9rabid · · Score: 1

      For serious remote desktop usage on Linux, the only thing I've tried that's actually any good is NX, although that is the only thing I've tried. Microsoft's RDP protocol is excellent. NX is the only thing that comes close to it.

      Perhaps this project may interest you. I've tried all of the janky, half-assed remote desktop solutions that Linux has to offer (x2go, NX, X11 forwarding), & this one seems to work the best for me.

    62. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Remote display on Macs suck and is no replacement for X.

      You should actually bother to use the things that you seek to copy.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    63. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      It's not that they are replacing the X protocol for networks. They are just trying to ignore it. Some people buy into the idea that you can "fix this later" but you really can't It took Microsoft about 20 years to do that.

      MacOS just ignores the problem entirely.

      It would be one thing if Wayland was addressing that use case rather than just trying to ignore it.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    64. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by tqk · · Score: 1

      I now tend to automatically roll my eyes whenever I hear an opensource community mention "rewrite" or "replacement".

      They mean it doesn't look enough like Win* or Macs. Just be thankful you don't have to use it (as opposed to when the same's done on Win* & Macs). "apt-get install fluxbox ..."

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    65. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by tqk · · Score: 1

      any device *should* be able to handle it

      How can you tell that someone has never developed for cellphones/*pad? Guess...

      How can you tell if someone's a Java developer? Guess...

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    66. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is very little "garbage" in the X protocol. Most of what a desktop needs is built on the existing system of atoms. Although some developers don't even understand that simple part of X11 and choose to build on top of dbus instead.

      Wayland is an interesting research project. But it can serve no practical purpose that wasn't already served by X11.

      Wayland basically discards every part of X11 that is difficult to support. And makes it some other component's problem, but unfortunately this means that synchronization between GUI and state is no longer possible on Wayland. I would call this naive refactoring.

    67. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by firewrought · · Score: 1

      The only part of X11 that people need is network transparent remote display, but that's the one part that the Wayland developers are absolutely hell bent on removing.

      They aren't removing anything... they are building something new from the ground up. In doing so, they are choosing not to build the whole castle in one go, but to focus their technical expertise on building a low-level protocol/library, on top of which other developers will inevitably keep building and add support for remote rendering.

      Wayland isn't removing your network transparency, it's delegating that responsibility to other yet-to-be-written software. This would be a concern if all distros were moving to Wayland next month, but they aren't. Wayland is a long-term strategy.

      --
      -1, Too Many Layers Of Abstraction
    68. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by tqk · · Score: 1

      And how exactly does remote X with a modern UI toolkit differ from VNC?

      Holy crap; you really don't get "client server".

      I want "my program" to be running on the honking biggest and fastest box to which I have access. I want that process to display its results on the dinky, pathetic little thing in front of me that I have to use to tell it to do that. I don't want that dinky, pathetic, under-powered and poorly implemented piece of crap in my hand to have to do any more than it absolutely has to, because it sucks at even that!

      Play around with "ssh -X" for a few days and get back to us. VNC, Jeebus.

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    69. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by sjames · · Score: 1

      I would be quite happy with a means to re-connect X applications, unfortunately rather than doing something useful like that (and protocol improvements for a faster display), Wayland wants to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

    70. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Petaris · · Score: 1

      Couldn't you just use Outlook's web interface instead? Otherwise you could use RDP or Citrix or any number of other methods for remote access to a Win server that has Outlook on it.

      --
      ~Petaris "The world is open. Are you?"
    71. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by inflex · · Score: 1

      So needed some good mod points for this.

      The number of times I've watched my own projects go from "beautiful and clean" to "crufty hack jobs" all because of handling corner-cases is probably well... the same as the number of projects I have :(

    72. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by ls671 · · Score: 1
      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    73. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      I'm not against change, sound drivers suck and I'm use pulseaudio now, and I'm mostly happy with the change. CUPS was a great change. I switched my workstation to systemd this year. I'd been waiting a decade for something that was a step forwards from SysV on that. I use dbus for IPC when I can.

      X11 isn't perfect, but network transparency is just not a feature I would give up. It is something I use and I won't be without it. Presumably all the new mac-clone interfaces will switch to whatever this new thing is, and the traditional GUIs will insist on staying with X11.

    74. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by ancienthart · · Score: 1

      True. I was using KDE3, and then KDE4 came out ... with all the nicest usability features removed. "Uh, I don't think so Tim." and became a Gnome2/Compiz user. Then they "modernised" Gnome to Gnome 3. "Aaaaagghhhh".
      Didn't update my computer for a year, which is ages for me.
      Thankfully KDE has listened enough to users to re-implement some of my favourite features (desktop folder view specifically) and I'm now back on KDE. Just wish panel icons were dragable by default, rather than having to enter panel settings first, and that I could drop and drag from menu favourites directly into the panel.
      Have tried some lighter desktops but I do admit I like my wibbly windows too much. :D

    75. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Is this sarcasm?

      Certainly.

      My point was that the Sun 3/60 debuted in (what?) 1985. Back then people accused X11 of being slow and bloated. Well al those so-called "legacy" parts have stayed the same or even shrunk since then. If it was slow and bloated in 1985 and hasn't changed much, then it's tiny and ligntning fast by today's standards.

      The point about xterm was that many people claimed that the old parts of X11 are "legacy" and slow and bloated (still, after nearly 30 years) and noone uses them anyway so they should just go, in defiance of all the happy and productive xterm users out there like me.

      Emacs (eight megs and constantly swapping) used to be a hog and now it's considered a lightweight editor. X11 somehow is still considered slow and bloated.

      X11: Unchanged yet still mysteriously slow and bloated since 1985.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    76. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What limited storage? Most have 16Gbytes now, and RAM is also growing very fast. So a few megabytes wont really make a difference. Specially when Wayland is ready. 5-10 years?

    77. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then it would be far more efficient to clean that code than try to reinvent the wheel, a square one even.

      How much cleaner the code would be if a team dedicated 4 years of work? A lot better I suppose.

      But wayland team just wants to go to the "fun" parts and cleaning code is boring. Wayland is sub par and creates more problems than solutions. That's my take on this subject. Feel free to disagree.

    78. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by tqk · · Score: 1

      Guten morgen. Buenos dias.

      They mean it doesn't look enough like Win* or Macs.

      True. I was using KDE3, and then KDE4 came out ...

      Every morning it seems, I stumble out of bed hoping to read something like, "You ASSHOLE!!! !@#$%^^&* ..."

      That tends to wake me up and get me thinking again. Instead, what do I get? "I love KDE!" I hate KDE. Would somebody please shoot me, or at least beat me to death with a stick?

      Not your fault. I'm a difficult case. There's six !@#$%^& inches of snow on the gawd damned ground, damnit.

      I really ought to take another look at KDE, considering it's been about ten years since I last did, but !@#$, it looked awful then. I think the prettiest X ever looked was DECWindow(s?), and I even liked Motif. Then I'm forced to endure KDE? $PUKE.

      [I'll be ok. Go hug your wife/mom/kids.]

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    79. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by tqk · · Score: 1

      Is this sarcasm?

      Certainly.

      Whew. :-|

      Emacs (eight megs and constantly swapping) ...

      It's just a full featured (okay, bloated!) OS. And you can edit text files (and read News, ... :-) with it.

      -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 2301536 2012-09-23 07:40 vmlinuz-2.6.32-5-686

      (0) kiak /home/keeling_ ls -AlF /usr/bin/vim.basic
      -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 1510796 Jul 11 2010 /usr/bin/vim.basic*

      The Linux kernel is 2.3Mb. Modern day vim (basic) is 1.5 Mb.

      X11: Unchanged yet still mysteriously slow and bloated since 1985.

      Morons. :-P I blew close to C$100.00 for a forty Mb disk in the early '90s.

      [Ob: GTFOML.]

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    80. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      16GB does not mean that you just should fill 1% of it with crap. You must work for microsoft.

    81. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Harik · · Score: 1

      Not really. It's a much more painful to try to remote a browser vi X11 on a LAN than it is to VNC/RDP into windows. The main issue is that while bandwidth has improved greatly from the early days of X11 there's only so much you can do about latency, and nearly no apps are written to handle that network latency well. It's actually a much better idea to let them do all their tiny operations on a local framebuffer and stream the whole image as a big blob of pixels. Back when X11 was designed, it was basically unthinkable to throw pixel streams across the network, because bandwidth was such a scarse resource (even on a LAN, 10 MB shared collision domain? Ouch.). When your design constraints change so drastically it's only natural that the optimal solution is no longer the same.

    82. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by Harik · · Score: 1

      The thing is, with a modern design around the capabilites of video cards you have a much cleaner way of grabbing the individual window frabebuffers (textures? Not sure what they're called when compositing) and streaming them as an image remotely. You can couple that with some hints ("Scroll down 50 pixels") and get a very efficient network protocol - that the applications can safely ignore. As far as they're concerned, everything is happining locally, and they don't care that instead of getting scaled and wobbly they're being encoded and streamed across a lan. As long as you forward the same input events, what's the difference?

    83. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by synthespian · · Score: 1

      The thing about X11 is that you can take a butt-ugly-looking Xt-based toolkit and sling C code from waaaaay back in the day and there's a good chance that it still runs.

      --
      Main difference between the BSD license and the GPL license: one is from California and the other is from Massachusetts
    84. Re:Hopefully another 25 years or more by tzot · · Score: 1

      At least for me, xterm with server-side fonts is fast; ctrl-middle-click and ticking "Enable Jump Scroll" helps too.

      --
      I speak England very best
  2. When IPv6 is ready? by dacarr · · Score: 1

    Perhaps this is going to be ready when the IPv6 flag day is?

    --
    This sig no verb.
    1. Re:When IPv6 is ready? by Enderandrew · · Score: 1

      Every major OS shipping today supports IPv6 natively, the same with all new networking equipment these days. IPv6 already works. Wayland isn't quite there.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    2. Re:When IPv6 is ready? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is not quite true, many issues even with the implementation standards remain unresolved, and a lot of the spec has not been implemented in Unix derivatives. Then, there are a lot tools that would be needed that are missing. Please read the book "IPv6 In Practice" for more information.

    3. Re:When IPv6 is ready? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That book is serious out of date

      It was written when Windows Vista was shiny and new and still a good OS.

    4. Re:When IPv6 is ready? by saihung · · Score: 1

      when Windows Vista was shiny and new and still a good OS.

      So it was never written then? That doesn't make much sense.

    5. Re:When IPv6 is ready? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So I can fill my house with IPv6 devices. That's good. What will I plug them into?

    6. Re:When IPv6 is ready? by unixisc · · Score: 1

      If they're all wireless, they could connect to your wireless router

  3. Version numbering by Rennt · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Oh, we'll call it 1.0, but I'm sure distros won't start shipping it by default because we said it's not ready. Why are you pulling that face? Worked for KDE didn't it?

    1. Re:Version numbering by UltraZelda64 · · Score: 1

      Yeah. I'm fully expecting Ubuntu to be the first. They really seem to like fucking with their users... I only used the distro briefly when it was just starting to get decent. Then they pulled a 180 and made one fucked up move after another, degenerating into a distro that seems to thinks that changing for no reason other than marketing or "well, the dumb masses will like it."

    2. Re:Version numbering by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      You know, every time I hear Wayland I keep thinking of Weyland, and all the associated murder and mayhem.

      So, yea. No thanks. I prefer to keep my machine facehugger-free.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
  4. what about xorg? by sayfawa · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I did, at least, skim the article, and I still don't know. Didn't X11 just (as in last few years) get replaced with x.org? This is another replacement already? Ok, before posting, I google and see this:

    What's different now is that a lot of infrastructure has moved from the X server into the kernel (memory management, command scheduling, mode setting) or libraries (cairo, pixman, freetype, fontconfig, pango etc) and there is very little left that has to happen in a central server process. ... [An X server has] a tremendous amount of functionality that you must support to claim to speak the X protocol, yet nobody will ever use this. ... This includes code tables, glyph rasterization and caching, XLFDs (seriously, XLFDs!) Also, the entire core rendering API that lets you draw stippled lines, polygons, wide arcs and many more state-of-the-1980s style graphics primitives. For many things we've been able to keep the X.org server modern by adding extension such as XRandR, XRender and COMPOSITE ... With Wayland we can move the X server and all its legacy technology to an optional code path. Getting to a point where the X server is a compatibility option instead of the core rendering system will take a while, but we'll never get there if [we] don't plan for it.

    which bored me to tears, so I'm no longer interested, but for those who are....

    --
    Free the Quark 3 from asymptotic confinement! Bring your charm! Don't get down! All colours and flavours welcome!
    1. Re:what about xorg? by damnbunni · · Score: 4, Informative

      x.org is not a replacement for X11. x.org is X11.

      It's an implementation of an X11 server.

      x.org split off from XFree86 over licensing arguments, if I recall properly.

    2. Re:what about xorg? by Smartcowboy · · Score: 2

      As I understand it, x.org replaced xfree86. Both are X11 implementation.

    3. Re:what about xorg? by bmo · · Score: 4, Informative

      The licensing thing was basically just the last straw in a long line of disagreements, especially the lack of innovation and communicating and coordinating with the rest of the community, like projects such as KDE and Gnome.

      If you think x.org's development is glacial, it's nothing like what XFree86's BS was.

      --
      BMO

    4. Re:what about xorg? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      [An X server has] a tremendous amount of functionality

      X servers were working fine on resource-constrained Unix systems 20 years ago.

      The idea that they're somehow too bloated compared to a modern UI subsystem is complete and utter bullshit.

      It just makes me annoyed how everything becomes layer upon layer of yet more inefficient crap, yet we're supposed to worry about comparably simple "legacy protocols" possibly still having some features that could be gradually deprecated.

    5. Re:what about xorg? by Kjella · · Score: 4, Insightful

      x.org split off from XFree86 over licensing arguments, if I recall properly.

      That was the breaking point but there was very much tension between XFree86's Core Team and the other developers over the development model. Both the developers and distros rapidly abandoned XFree86 so their first release under the new license was essentially already dead and buried. It was something of an eye opener to see how quickly you could go from being president for XFree86, used in pretty much every form of *nix systems to having an empty title while all the people and all the work continued over at x.org. It really goes to show that open source projects are at the mercy of the grassroots, if you act like a dick or an idiot your project will be forked and dead like if someone pulled the rug out from under you.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    6. Re:what about xorg? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually if you were to look at it, the boat about coincides with the 'new developers' getting ahold of it. Go look at the X server code sizes prior to 2001ish and POST 2001ish, and keep in mind that's WITHOUT MESA.

      I didn't see a whole lot of new hardware being added, but the code bloat was HUGE. like 3-5x the old sizes and still growing. X 3.3.3 was like sub 10 megs of archives, and it's now up to like 100(!)

    7. Re:what about xorg? by tibit · · Score: 4, Informative

      The deal is that the way of rendering that both X11 and windows GDI support is 20 years behind the times. Nobody renders like that. The only way to reuse such an API to render modern UIs (without using GPU functionality) is to generate bitmaps using various modern rendering libraries and toolkits (like Qt does!) and push those to the screen. Thus, for a modern application, X11 and GDI are bitblt and input with lots of other junk nobody cares about. Yeah, X servers were working fine on resource constrained Unix systems 20 years ago, but then the UIs back then consisted of relatively simple primitives that the X server could actually draw. These days the X server doesn't support the primitives the application designers need, because to do so would mean reimplementing, for example, a path based compositing renderer.

      The legacy APIs are useless, they don't scale anymore. Back in times of X, any application that drew anything complex had to maintain its own scene graph of some sort and maintain its own space partitioning to choose what to redraw. This led to obscene duplication of effort, and various applications had their own glitches, shortcomings and inefficiencies because everyone was reimplementing what wasn't all that easy to implement correctly in the first place.

      Given the graphics hardware available today, those legacy APIs of GDI and X vintage expose a model that is so far detached from how the hardware processes the geometry, that applications that merely use the API can't leverage the available graphics horsepower. IOW, if you code to X or GDI APIs, your application will perform poorly and there's no way for something on the implementation side of the API to fix it for you.

      When designing an application of any sort, the graphics API needs to present primitives and abstractions that translate well into efficient uses of graphics hardware. I'm sure people who deal with accelerating modern frameworks like Qt will tell you all there's to know about how broken the legacy API is when faced with modern hardware.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    8. Re:what about xorg? by smash · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Requirements for a display server were different 20 years ago. They weren't pushing around true colour bitmaps over the wan, video, openGL, etc. They were (realstically) rendering a few xterms, simple static bitmaps and not a hell of a lot else.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    9. Re:what about xorg? by evilviper · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Remove the legacy libs and interface... Fix X11's network transparency, making it perform more like NX... Improve the insane xauth system... make sure GTK and QT still work on it... call it X12 and release it to the public.

      Just because maintaining 90% of the legacy code is unnecessary, doesn't mean you need to throw it all away, including the other 10% that works well and 99% of the compatible applications use.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    10. Re:what about xorg? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I didn't see a whole lot of new hardware being added, but the code bloat was HUGE. like 3-5x the old sizes and still growing. X 3.3.3 was like sub 10 megs of archives, and it's now up to like 100(!)

      OH MY GOD, NOT, LIKE, 100 MEGS, WHAT WILL WE DO?

    11. Re:what about xorg? by Electricity+Likes+Me · · Score: 1

      I don't know - isn't this basically what Wayland is doing?

      On some level, Wayland compatibility is fairly easy since everyone is already using libraries - swap the libraries out with Wayland versions, and you're there. This is functionally what you're proposing, since what doesn't use the libraries breaks - but I'm not sure anyone writes applications that directly speak X anymore.

    12. Re:what about xorg? by tibit · · Score: 1

      Oh, you mean, like a total re-specification, re-design and re-implementation? Then I think we agree :)

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    13. Re:what about xorg? by sg_oneill · · Score: 1

      If angry developers can screw over a mega-corp like oracle, something like xfree dont stand a chance. Moral of the story;- If your volunteer devs don't like your attitude , they will knife you, because your getting free labor and not showing respect.

      --
      Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
    14. Re:what about xorg? by evilviper · · Score: 3, Informative

      I don't know - isn't this basically what Wayland is doing?

      No, Wayland is throwing out ALL X11 compatibility, and removing network transparency, and all the programs that are designed to support it.

      I'm not sure anyone writes applications that directly speak X anymore.

      Fluxbox?

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    15. Re:what about xorg? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      I remember in `99 I compiled XFree86 at home and it took 3 days to compile. Later when I first heard about X.org people were saying, they are modernizing the code. And sure enough, I tried it and it compiled in just a few hours.

    16. Re:what about xorg? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Requirements for a display server were different 20 years ago. They weren't pushing around true colour bitmaps over the wan, video, openGL, etc. They were (realstically) rendering a few xterms, simple static bitmaps and not a hell of a lot else.

      I'm not sure that the lack of "pushing around true colour bitmaps over the wan" is a valid reason to throw network transparency. ;)

      Maybe they were pushing more (windowing system) bitmaps over the WAN then than now, and now most of those bitmaps are going via the WWW.

    17. Re:what about xorg? by Arrepiadd · · Score: 2

      I remember in `99 I compiled XFree86 at home and it took 3 days to compile. Later when I first heard about X.org people were saying, they are modernizing the code. And sure enough, I tried it and it compiled in just a few hours.

      Well, if we consider that the initial version of X.org came out in 2004 (5 years after your XFree86 adventure) and we take into account Moore's Law (and other advancements) I'd say 98% of the speed improvement you observed is due to the computer you were compiling it in.

    18. Re:what about xorg? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you significantly break the X11 protocol, there is not much to gain in "just breaking it a little bit", as opposed to modernizing the useful parts of it along with throwing out the useless.

      Either way you're going to have to add support to your toolkits for the new protocol.

    19. Re:what about xorg? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 5, Informative

      The deal is that the way of rendering that both X11 and windows GDI support is 20 years behind the times.

      So?

      I hear this a lot. The thing is, the code might have been large and complex 25 years ago when X11 was new. The code hasn't grown. By modern standards it's small and simple. And if it's rarely used, then it will sit on disk un-paged and never getting in the way. Actually with the removal of many things which used to be but no longer are optimizations it's shrunk.

      Rarely used code does not affect performance.

      Nobody renders like that.

      I'm going to keep using xterm thanks. And I'd appreciate if you didn't make false claims about me.

      These days the X server doesn't support the primitives the application designers need, because to do so would mean reimplementing, for example, a path based compositing renderer.

      Firstly, X11 does support basic compositing now, and has for a while. Secondly, what's with the claim about "reimplementing"? One could easily make a cairo-x11 extension. In fact there used to be a x11-DPS extension so it's clearly possible.

      The legacy APIs are useless, they don't scale anymore.

      [citation needed]

      Anyway WHO CARES? Modern toolkits don't use the "legacy" APIs and old programs aren't big. So it's all happy and nice.

      IOW, if you code to X or GDI APIs, your application will perform poorly and there's no way for something on the implementation side of the API to fix it for you.

      Your claim is something like 20 years out of date. X11 has had a standardised interface to hardware accelerated OpenGL since before PCs even had 3D cards. Most people don't and didn't use it because even the "poorly performing" "legacy" APIs are entirely fine for almost all programs which sit there doing nothing until a key is pressed.

      When designing an application of any sort, the graphics API needs to present primitives and abstractions that translate well into efficient uses of graphics hardware. I'm sure people who deal with accelerating modern frameworks like Qt will tell you all there's to know about how broken the legacy API is when faced with modern hardware.

      Well, yes, but then again. they probably don't use "legacy" APIs, prefering to use things like XComposite, XFixes and so on and so forth.

      Basically, the X11 prorocol is really well designed, upgradeable and does a lot of things very well. One part of it (the original drawing protocol) was basically due for a major upgrade. That partly happened with XComposite and off-screen rendering. It could (and probably should) be continued with a higher level (e.g. SVG) drawing protocol.

      Other parts of the X11 protocol have aged very gracefully, and are still very good.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    20. Re:what about xorg? by Kjella · · Score: 2

      I remember in `99 I compiled XFree86 at home and it took 3 days to compile. Later when I first heard about X.org people were saying, they are modernizing the code. And sure enough, I tried it and it compiled in just a few hours.

      If I recall correctly one of the first orders of business for x.org was splitting it up into modules rather than one gigantic monolithic project. Compiling the whole stack was not significantly faster, so most likely you're comparing compiling the core server to compiling everything including the kitchen sink but it allowed developers to work more independently and spend less time waiting for compiles.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    21. Re:what about xorg? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Parent is exactly right. Grandparent is full of self-contradictory jargon-salad nonsense; the writer clearly has no idea what he's talking about, and is just parrotting some anti-X11 talking points he read somewhere.

    22. Re:what about xorg? by jbolden · · Score: 1

      You can't modernize away the big problem with local performance. The application buffer and the video buffer can't be shared. On a 5m screen that's 20m of data, minimum. As 60 frame / sec that 1.2g of data crossing over the bus per second for highly intensive graphics. While we have busses that under best case that can handle 1.2g / sec, they can't do it under suboptimal conditions.

      Make that multi monitor and game over, too slow.

    23. Re:what about xorg? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On my soapbox... This is exactly right. The problem with Wayland is that its a new, from scratch effort, which fixes some shortcomings of X but _specifically chooses to completely ignore the things which X11 does extremely well_. This is also known as throwing out the baby with the bath water. Or said more bluntly, massive stupidity. When it all stated, Wayland supporters absolutely refused to even acknowledge people still use remote desktops. When pressed, they've always insisted no one does that, or worse case VNC is the obvious solution. The problem is, VNC is an extremely piss poor replacement for a remote desktop experience via X.

      Every time I hear a wayland supporter, who are generally very ignorant of both systems, all I hear is, "hooray, babies are raining from the sky....can you hear them pop?"

      X11 is very fixable - exactly as you said. Wayland is representative...wow those guys are loud when they pop. Thanks Wayland.

    24. Re:what about xorg? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? What hardware did you do this on?

      I remember compiling XFree86 in the late 90s on a Pentium II and it definitely wasn't 3 days. A few hours maybe.

    25. Re:what about xorg? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but I'm not sure anyone writes applications that directly speak X anymore.

      There are many graphics libraries out there and many applications are based on them. The PP is right.

      Software is soft, it can be anything we want it to be. It does not make sense to create deliberate incompatibilities when a gradual transition is possible.

    26. Re:what about xorg? by Electricity+Likes+Me · · Score: 1

      but I'm not sure anyone writes applications that directly speak X anymore.

      There are many graphics libraries out there and many applications are based on them. The PP is right.

      Software is soft, it can be anything we want it to be. It does not make sense to create deliberate incompatibilities when a gradual transition is possible.

      What I meant was, if you were looking at a client application, chances are it's not written to speak X directly, but rather uses toolkits to do so - big central things which have lots of interest and users.

      My criticism of the OP was that if you change X a lot, you're breaking it, and things will have to be rewritten anyway.

      I go backwards and forwards of whether I like the idea behind Wayland as it currently exists, but I think they're right in the sense that anything significant done to fix X would involve breaking compatibility. That said, I do inevitably come back to thinking breaking network transparency is a silly idea.

    27. Re:what about xorg? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      X has roots going back into the 80s (color was added in about 1985 and it was 8-bit or 256 colors). "X11" is the eleventh version of the protocol. In the mid-90s, the controlling organization (x.org) was not addressing the video cards typically placed in personal computers fast enough, a group started supplying more cards and with more often releases. This line became known as XFree86. At some point the XFree86 team attempted to move in a direction that was not liked an the "X Org" took the last free version of XFree86 and merged it into their product (which at the time had bunch of newer features) and once again became the supplier of X11 for linux based systems.

      By the way the "X window sever" (Yes it does not have an "S") was created when MIT in 1983 (I belive I remember this correctly) attempted to port the "W" graphic layer for OS "V" to work on a DEC PDP 12 (again it I remember correctly) which ran too slow (something like only at 20-25% the speed under V). So they re-wrote it and added the networking model still present and some other features as well. X1 was released way back in 1984 and as I said color was added in X9 in 1985 and X11 was released in 1987. It seems that the 11th version of the protocol has a very good definition since it is now 2012 and we have not seen a version 12 (as the current version is "X11 R7.7"

    28. Re:what about xorg? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      You're just blindly assuming that I upgraded so often that you could use Moore's Law to measure my CPU power.

    29. Re:what about xorg? by smash · · Score: 1

      I wasn't saying its a reason to ditch network transparency. I'm implying that the network transparency in X11 sucks so bad it is worth throwing away, and re-implementing in a better way with a module/daemon/etc that can be upgraded/replaced without affecting the core, local machine rendering pipeline.

      Seriously, try X11 and RDP back to back over a 64bit pipe and get back to me.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    30. Re:what about xorg? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      You can't modernize away the big problem with local performance.

      Sure you can. That's exactly what wayland is supposed to do.

      The application buffer and the video buffer can't be shared.

      I'm not sure what you mean by that. Almost all OpenGL programs run at full resolution and fill multiple times per pixel. By contrast a GL based composting window manager does not need to to that (no multitexturing, lighting etc etc). Given that windows are at a constant Z depth, efficient occlusion culling is really easy.

      . As 60 frame / sec that 1.2g of data crossing over the bus per second for highly intensive graphics.

      Yeah and? The A8 (a quite low end processor and graphics solution) can manage about 9Gtexels/second fill rate. That's enough to draw that screen 6 times.

      Even the i915 on my venerable eee 900 can manage 1.3Gt/s peak fill rate, and the theoretical maximum it can drive is 2560x1600 external + 1024x600 internal. And it can drive that lot at 60fps. That's a chipset which has been obsoleted in the laptop and desktop world for quite a while now, and has been considered as the bottom of the low end for quite a while longer.

      So, I'm having real difficuly following your line of reasoning. The busses inside graphics cards are crazy fast and very wide, and more than capable of this. Outside, there are precious few monitor links that can do that rate anyway, and noone would couple a super expensive 4k monitor with a cheap graphics card.

      Make that multi monitor and game over, too slow.

      More monitors == more busses.

      But this has nothing to do with X11. With suitable hardware, X11 is capable of driving vast displays with dmx.

      http://www.schrankmonster.de/content/binary/quake_front_thumb.jpg

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    31. Re:what about xorg? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well designed and upgradable? Is that why it took decades to implement resolution or pixel format change without restarting X11? And this and other problems that took many years to solve with extensions that need to be reimplemented for every X11 implementation (often not done) would go away if it was possible to detach running processes, kill the old X11, start the a new one with the new settings and then attach those applications to the new one. Well designed my hairy arse.

    32. Re:what about xorg? by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Sure you can. That's exactly what wayland is supposed to do.

      I meant you can't modernize away the problem in the context of x11. Obviously Aero, GDI and Aqua don't have this problem either it is x11 specific but unfixable.

      So, I'm having real difficuly following your line of reasoning. The busses inside graphics cards are crazy fast and very wide, and more than capable of this.

      I agree the problems is not inside OpenGL. The problem is server side rendering. The input for the kernel display system comes from the x11 client not the server so when used locally it requires a write to an application and then a write to the graphics buffer rather than a direct write to the graphics buffer. That's not the speed of the buffer inside the graphics chip but rather the bus between RAM and the GPU which is many times slower and in contention.

    33. Re:what about xorg? by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      You laugh, but code bloat makes it far harder to maintain, improve, debug, and fix. It puts higher-than-necessary barriers to entry for anyone unfamiliar with the code to play with it.
      Code size is a bigger issue than you think.

    34. Re:what about xorg? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      I meant you can't modernize away the problem in the context of x11.

      I don't see why.

      The input for the kernel display system comes from the x11 client not the server so when used locally it requires a write to an application and then a write to the graphics buffer rather than a direct write to the graphics buffer.

      That is *exactly* what OpenGL does. There is no operation to write to the display buffer directly. You write to a texture, upload it to the card and then draw a bunch of textured triangles or quads using it (or these days, use some shader program). Direct access to the frame buffer is a thing of the distant past in high performance graphics systems.

      Again, I cannot follow your reasoning. What, *specifically* makes X11 require more bandwidth than Aqua or Aero?

      In both systems, the CPU has to specify a bunch of drawing. It then somehow has to get either those instructions or the drawn image to the screen. The X11 drawing architecture is actually REALLY good in this regard, and has adapted to many kinds of hardware acceleration over the years.

      You can serialise commands, send them over the network, re-serialise them and then send them to shader programs on a grapahics card! If you have a Pixmap on the server, it can be uploaded onto the card. a drawing operation then happens directly on the card.

      So again, somehow you have to ship data from the CPU to the GPU, in any system. If you're doing something higher-level like GL or X11, then you send commands. If you're doing something low-level like blasting a texture over to the graphics card, then you need bandwidth and that is inescapable on any system.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    35. Re:what about xorg? by jbolden · · Score: 1

      I see what you are saying in terms of OpenGL primitives. Good point. So I'll retract a bit and grant if you are using OpenGL having the application buffer and the graphics buffer being distinct is not a huge problem.

      OK so let's assume I have all drawing going via OpenGL and use X11. How does this architecture for something like a scaled down graphic in an application? Say for example I'm using OO Write with embedded video running at 1/2 size. I can render the video and Write via OpenGL. How does the scaling work effectively under this setup?

      The other problem is overlapping windows and the OpenGL pageflip. The pageflip command if being executed by the X11 Client per your version will always be application / windows specific (unless it is running full screen and I'm not sure an X11 can even know if it is running full screen or not). How is that handled?

    36. Re:what about xorg? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      How does this architecture for something like a scaled down graphic in an application? Say for example I'm using OO Write with embedded video running at 1/2 size. I can render the video and Write via OpenGL. How does the scaling work effectively under this setup?

      I'm not sure follow. Currently X11 doesn't do image scaling as a simple drawing operation. XIE is long deprecated and removed. XV does the job, but might use an overlay. Very efficient though. It would need a protocol extension, I guess.

      I'm in favour of an extension for more advanced drawing. Primitives.

      Or, go the entire thing in glX, which gives you pretty direct access to the texture mapping hardware.

      The other problem is overlapping windows and the OpenGL pageflip. The pageflip command if being executed by the X11 Client per your version will always be application / windows specific (unless it is running full screen and I'm not sure an X11 can even know if it is running full screen or not). How is that handled?

      All the applications can really do is tell X11 (the composting wm) or the compositor that they have finished drawing somewhere. That will often be an offscreen buffer.

      The system I have in mind is that 60 times per second the compositor/compositing WM draws a bunch of window front buffers to its own back buffer, then buffer flips during the vblank.

      Basically, the application windows page filpping (flipping texture pointers, as they will probably be rendering to a texture) controls what the compositor will draw. The compositor can use Z or stencil buffering to make sure that windows are drawn with the correct clipping. In practice, it would probably do something a bit more advanced to completely cull windows that are in some way oviously invisible. There are probably fast algorithms for determining such things, but I don't know of any off hand.

      Naturally there are optimizations where the compositor need not bother redrawing if nothing has changed.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
  5. Why are graphics awesome on Android? by Andy+Prough · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I've used various Linux distros for 13+ years, and have always been disappointed in the horrible desktop graphics. Compared to a Windows machine, a comparable Linux rig is normally a miserable graphics experience. I was shocked the first time I got my hands on a Xoom tablet - the graphics are by FAR one of the best features of the Android platform. I can't for the life of me understand how there can be such an extreme difference between graphics in desktop linux distros compared to the gorgeous and snappy graphics under Android. And I'm not even running garbage graphic cards - one of my machines has a very modern nVidia card that plays all the latest games under Windows, but still handles poorly on Linux. From a technical perspective, I can't understand how there could be such an absurd difference, other than that the Android kernel is a fork, and clearly the Android kernel developers are far more concerned about creating a pleasant and useful graphical experience?

    1. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um, isn't the "Android kernel" Linux? Maybe they just have better closed-source drivers for the graphics hardware on Android tablets.

    2. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by NotQuiteReal · · Score: 2

      ...or... they have google money to hire artists.

      I, for one, am a nerd who appreciates what artists, managers, and, yes, even sales folks do to sell what I make.

      Usually you get what you pay for. Sometimes you get less, sometimes you get more.

      --
      This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
    3. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      How does someone run Linux AND comment on slashdot and understands so little about the stack they use and frankly technology as a whole. You make me laugh.

    4. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by Enderandrew · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I'm confused. When Vista came out with their Aero effects, it was a massive CPU and memory hog in addition to requiring GPU power. Compiz on the other hand ran on very basic hardware and did far more.

      In Linux I have more control over font rendering and sub-pixel hinting.

      In what way has Linux desktop graphics lagged at all? Mac OS X and Linux have led the way while Windows has followed poorly. And in case you haven't been paying attention, Windows 8 is coming out. It is 2012, and they still haven't figured out how to scale down to small displays, and scale up to very high resolution displays.

      http://techreport.com/review/23631/how-windows-8-scaling-fails-on-high-ppi-displays

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    5. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by Andy+Prough · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I agree that the artwork is much better, but the responsiveness under Android is also clearly better, fonts are much nicer, videos and games play smoothly and flawlessly. Hell - my Android phone puts my Linux workstation with its $200 nVidia graphics card to shame.

    6. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by Andy+Prough · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I'm just talking about my personal experience. I often have dual-booted on the same system over the years, and right now I have two hard drives on my workstation - one that boots into Linux, one that boots into Windows. The difference in graphics rendering between Linux and Windows on the same equipment has always been clear - Windows has always handled graphics-intensive work much more smoothly. So why are graphics under Android so shockingly vivid and smooth?

      I continue to run Linux because it can run circles around Windows for similar processor-intensive work - for example, I do a lot of OCR of scanned documents. On a large batch, I can get the OCR done in half the time under Linux compared with Windows.

    7. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by armanox · · Score: 1

      I'm glad yours does, my Droid phone is miserable when it comes to graphics. Very slow, unresponsive, and freezes often. Never had that issue with any of my nVidia cards and Linux (Geforce 3 was the main one I did Linux gaming on (oh NWN), more recently 9800GT, GT460, and my other box a Quadro FX1800). ATi cards haven't done as nicely (especially integrated in laptops).

      --
      I'm starting to think GNU is the problem with "GNU/Linux" these days.
    8. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by Andy+Prough · · Score: 1

      Samsung Android phone is very nice - I log it on to my home wireless network, and get better youtube and live TV performance than on any of my laptops or desktops. So strange to me though - seems like the laptops and desktops have far more system resources.

    9. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      two reasons
      1. Android has a lot of companies working on it constantly to give it nice pretty graphics. They sell a product that requires it. Desktop Linux, to a fair degree, does not.
      2. Linux desktop is hacked together from thousands of seperate pices of software. That it works out of the box at all is an achievement.
      IMHO GUI's have been pretty good on linux - I'm have been able to customise it how I want. Where it's fallen down has always been in programs working together and consistancy. For example, controling the GUI without a mouse needed extra setup. On XP and prior, once you know shortcuts, it is possible to work without a mouse at all, out of the box - windows install and all. Note this has been becoming less and less accessable.

    10. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by Andy+Prough · · Score: 1

      You are correct to an extent - I run Linux, and am able to administer my work stations and optimize performance for my tasks, but I am by no means a developer. I guess that's why I asked the question - I really don't understand why there is such a noticeable difference.

    11. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by Andy+Prough · · Score: 1

      Agreed - I guess its just the money poured into Android, and the urgency by Google and partners to keep pace with the competition from Apple. Too bad we still don't have a version of Desktop Android - I think it would be a very useful alternative, and quite popular.

    12. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by ADRA · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Google invested a lot of money to get their Application client stacks to work very well with a sane OpenGL implementation, and OEM's shipping Android make sure that there are sane OpenGL implementations on Linux. The later cannot be said for any of the desktop players that have dropped the ball due to lack of interest for well over a decade.

      Android proves that graphics on Linux can be quite successful functional, but it also proves at how little interest existing industry heavy weights have at supporting Linux in general. The question now looms, can AMD, Nvidia, Intel, and co continually give half hearted attempts at supporting Linux when their markets are now in more danger than they ever have before? Can they continually look a blind eye to one of the fastest growing consumer electronics segments in a long while? Time will tell, and the drivers (and standards bodies) will be the tell tale sign that they can truely embrase a world outside Windows PC's.

      --
      Bye!
    13. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by tibit · · Score: 1

      Because any X application that doesn't render using OpenGL can't really do much else than generate bitmaps and blit them to the screen if you're expecting any modern style of UI (vs. legacy polygons and arcs only). Since everyone and their grandma reinvents various layers of those bitmap-making functionality over an over, it all looks like crap and performs like crap. It's hard for developers to focus on making things look good when the platform they develop on (X + various libraries that sit on top of it) performs poorly, is buggy, and often is fragmented as hell and lacks cohesion. Higher-level all-in-one frameworks like Qt at least try to provide one design for the entire stack, whether you want to paint just a line or a whole scene. When you get into GTK land, there's a bazillion pieces all done by different people. Other frameworks, like Tk or wxWidgets, are a bit behind the times in their capabilities and make it hard to get things to look modern.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    14. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by Andy+Prough · · Score: 3, Informative

      You are absolutely correct on all points. Its a shame that graphics support for Linux has been treated so poorly by so many companies for such a long time. Once again, it points to the clear need for a Desktop version of Android -- with the superior graphics performance and the enormous number of apps, it would be an instant game-changer in the PC market.

    15. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by smash · · Score: 0

      Uh. When compiz first came out, you had a choice of 3d rendered desktop with inability to run openGL apps, or vice versa. Vista transparently kept running 3d applications.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    16. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't confuse the slowness of GTK and friends with X11. Most of people's feelings of slowness on Linux come from those toolkits which don't support backing store.
        X11 itself is lightning fast even on a 486 -- I should know, I'm crazy enough to run it on one.

      Wayland seems like a Not Invented Here project. These things are why we have two major toolkits, three sound layers, and dozens of half-finished music players. I.E. another instance of nerds wasting time reinventing a wheel that already works just fine.

    17. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by Enderandrew · · Score: 2

      Vista was released 5 years ago. The very first release of Compiz had that problem, but Compiz was handling 3D desktops and openGL at the same time just fine 5 years ago.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    18. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tk or wxWidgets, are a bit behind the times in their capabilities and make it hard to get things to look modern.

      Exactly what do you mean by modern?

    19. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by styrotech · · Score: 1

      Watching online video on Linux probably means using Flash which has awful performance on Linux.

      Your phone is possibly (I'm guessing) using a nice native hardware accelerated video codec.

    20. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by caseih · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I looked through the other replies to see if I could mod someone up, but unfortunately no one answered your question and most posts missed the point.

      The difference has nothing to do with the kernel. The difference in in the graphics architecture and how the subsystem works with the hardware.

      First, Android's graphic subsystem is probably closer to Wayland than X11. The reason X11 is slow (or rather seems slow) is because X11 is an asynchronous API. That means things like window resizing and widget redrawing are all done without any synchronization, at roughly the same time, but not in any particular order. This means that you often get stuttering and tearing. So oddly enough if you use a compositing manager on Linux (any modern desktop), moving windows around is very snappy. Resizing windows is much better than it used to be because the widget toolkits have gotten much better at things like event compression, and even using synchronization extensions to X11 to time redraws to coincide with refresh rates. Also the API involves a lot of round-trips to the server, so over the network it's extremely chatty and subject to latency.

      As allude to, X11 is a client/server architecture, which is a very powerful concept, but also causes some problems in making things appear smooth and fast (the asynchronous issue I just mentioned). X11's most powerful feature, is network transparency. I can remote log into any number of machines, and run individual apps and interact with them all on my desktop. Sure vnc or rdp can do this sort of thing, but not at an app (really per window) basis. I run remote apps as if they were local. I use this feature every day. It's not perfect; doesn't connect my local drive to the remote app, and it doesn't do sound. And if you're not on a LAN, it's better to use FreeNX.

      Android is pretty much just OpenGL compositing onto a frame buffer screen. This can be very fast and smooth, and Wayland will likely be as fast and smooth. But it lacks the remote network transparency of X11.

    21. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by Andy+Prough · · Score: 1

      OK thanks -- and I see that Android uses SurfaceFlinger as the compositing manager for the frame buffer screen, rather than using the X11 server for compositing. But it appears from what I am reading and what you are saying that SurfaceFlinger doesn't really replace X11 server - it is a tool for managing compositing in a completely different manner. In that case, I've got to agree that Wayland would suddenly become a very important compositor protocol for any distro such as Ubuntu which seeks to make a real dent in the popular desktop-OS marketplace. Any compositor protocol which would create a similar graphical experience as Android would be highly desirable. Once again, however, it seems to me that if Android could be made to work on the Desktop, most problems would be solved already without spending several years ironing out the kinks in a new compositor protocol. An added advantage to Desktop Android would be the vast market of Android Apps, along with the enormous built-in base of experienced users.

    22. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by Andy+Prough · · Score: 1

      Sounds like you would argue on behalf of Wayland then, in terms of getting one cohesive compositor protocol. I'd have a hard time disagreeing.

    23. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by Andy+Prough · · Score: 1

      You are right, Flash has been a complete disaster on Linux and on Windows for years in my experience. Can't really blame Steve Jobs for giving up on it altogether. However, I get nearly flawless Flash performance on the Android devices I've tried. Such a strange dichotomy - especially while Adobe is in the process of dumping Flash for Android.

    24. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by JDG1980 · · Score: 1

      In Linux I have more control over font rendering and sub-pixel hinting.

      A couple years ago I tried out a few Linux distributions, and font rendering was the one thing that I just couldn't get to work satisfactorily no matter how I tried. Even following instructions to recompile freetype with hinting and subpixel rendering, and using the Microsoft core fonts, it looked like ass compared to Windows ClearType. Is there now a way to get Linux fonts to render exactly the same as on Windows? I know a lot of Linux users prefer the blurry, non-snapped look, and some even prefer no antialiasing at all (!) but when I tried Linux out and opened the web browser, I couldn't even concentrate on reading the text because it hurt my eyes.

    25. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by Andy+Prough · · Score: 1

      You should have access to the Droid fonts on most major distros - I much prefer them to trying to get the Microsoft core fonts rendered correctly. I think if you tried the Droid fonts with hinting and subpixel rendering you would be much more pleased.

    26. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by Andy+Prough · · Score: 1

      These things are why we have two major toolkits, three sound layers, and dozens of half-finished music players. I.E. another instance of nerds wasting time reinventing a wheel that already works just fine.

      In a way, this is why I think that getting Android running on the Desktop would be a better use of time than perfecting a new compositor protocol with Wayland. The Android graphics stack already works beautifully, and you've got a built-in hoard of apps and a large existing user base.

    27. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by Andy+Prough · · Score: 1

      Um, isn't the "Android kernel" Linux? Maybe they just have better closed-source drivers for the graphics hardware on Android tablets.

      Correct - and some others have pointed out that its really the compositing method that is the big difference between graphics on Android and graphics systems using X11 server on most desktop Linux distros.

    28. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by spitzak · · Score: 1

      Those toolkits *DO* support backing store. You obviously have not tried to program with XLib or you would know how much of an incredible pain it is to do this in any way that is not horribly slow. Hint: do not use XDBR as it is slower than using your own pixmap and copying it. What you really want is shared DRI (sp?) buffers but setting that up is horribly complicated.

      Wayland's main purpose is to assume that backing store is the way every window draws and should be the fastest method.

      The main reason for better graphics on Windows:

      1. Window borders are drawn by the clients. This removes the async and mismatch between the borders and contents when you resize windows and move them. Also allows decorations to be drawn on windows. If you don't think this is a big deal, compare on Linux one of the border-less media players. Notice how smooth moving and resizing the media player is compared to most apps. This is entirely due to the avoidance of the window manager drawing and interaction, note that those media players are probably drawing much more complicated graphics and probably not that efficiently.

      2. Easy(er) to create a local image buffer and get it reliably and QUICKLY copied or moved to where the on-screen compositor can combine all the windows to the final screen image. In X even the best methods require copying the data several times. I suspect Windows manages to mmap that image from the client's memory to the screen compositor's memory. About 90% of wayland's design is dedicated to doing this. I am unsure as I don't program Windows but I suspect the way to create such an image without using a toolkit is enormously painful, while still being 10x better than X11. Wayland from what I have seen has made it doable in a few lines (one call to properly allocate the memory so that it can be mapped to the graphics card, and a second to tell wayland to use it as the screen image).

      3. Better artists on Windows. Though artwork is portable.

      4. Fonts that rely on Windows-specific rasterizer bugs. These also screw up on OSX and Android.

    29. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by dkf · · Score: 1

      Tk or wxWidgets, are a bit behind the times in their capabilities and make it hard to get things to look modern.

      Exactly what do you mean by modern?

      He means "migraine-inducing and hard-to-use".

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    30. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      First, Android's graphic subsystem is probably closer to Wayland than X11. The reason X11 is slow (or rather seems slow) is because X11 is an asynchronous API. That means things like window resizing and widget redrawing are all done without any synchronization,

      You are confusing several separate concepts.

      an asynchronus API is one where the function calls return instantly, as opposed to a synchronus one where function calls wait until they have been completed before returning.

      X11 is asynchronus, but things don't happen in an arbitrary order because X11 request packets have a sequence number, ensuring that things happen in the correct order.

      Tearing is due to a lack of synchronization, which has nothing to do with a synchronus API. One needs to synchronise the page flipping to the vertical blanking interval (or the digital equivalent). X11 has supported this feature for a very long time.

      It requires the driver writer to support the feature and the application to make use of it too.

      Also with new compositing window managers, the problem should disappear (haha) because the compositor controls all the drawing to the screen so it can sync to the vertical interval itself, meaning programs don't have to.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    31. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Meanwhile the Kindle is running X and handling fonts as well as anyone.
      Something was obviously wrong with what you were using, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't work anywhere.

    32. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In what way has Linux desktop graphics lagged at all?

      It doesn't require a high end gamer graphics card just to draw a start button. As long as you don't have that, you can't claim to be modern like Vista.

      But don't worry, by the time Windows 8 is running acceptably on phones, Wayland will have caught up with the system requirements of Vista, and then they can start wondering how to catch up with Windows 8.

    33. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, notice how on Linux you can move even a locked up program out of the way, where as on Windows, even a program that is just a tad slow will be hard to move or even see where it's gone once you release the mouse button, because the windows borders don't get redrawn until the freaking program starts responding. That's just one of the things where X11 got it right, and Microsoft is still stuck with the mistakes they made back in the last millennium.

      Next you will tell me that Wayland also gets rid of network transparency, another thing Windows still haven't got right, and replacing it with something like Windows 95, where we had to use VNC to do anything remotely without using a car.

    34. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by dkf · · Score: 1

      The reason X11 is slow (or rather seems slow) is because X11 is an asynchronous API.

      The issue is almost certainly due to client-side bitmap composition, where X11 is definitely slow. If you can write your GUI code to keep large data on the server and do the composition there, you avoid the problems and X11 (either with a modern network or locally) is fast. Assuming you grok asynchronous programming, of course, but that's not that hard. I remember using Tk back in 1995 and it felt fast then due to clever asynchronous programming (faster than LispWorks, which was a Motif-based monstrosity that encouraged going for a long coffee while booting the environment...) We now have much faster systems, so we have no excuse for slow GUIs. Except that transfer of bitmaps between client and server is slow; that's the one place in X11 where you really do need bulk data transfer.

      Of course, most of the people bitching about "too slow for modern GUIs" are people who insist on using excessive graphical glitz. I really don't need my terminal windows to be translucent surfaces; it adds nothing valuable! (Putting the WM on the same system as the server — and so able to use local private APIs for window composition — is reasonable. Most apps aren't WMs.)

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    35. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To be fair, I think Windows ClearType looks like ass. (And so does any coloured text Linux/OSX produces, too.)

      Anyway, the latest FreeType has some sort of large patch applied that gives special treatment to MS fonts, trying to render them as close as Windows's as possible. It is still disabled and needs a special build to enable.

    36. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by Misagon · · Score: 1

      Wayland's protocol is asynchronous, in the same way as X11.

      X11 requires a round-trip to the application whenever it needs to redraw a damaged portion of a window. This means that if the application (or the communication to the application) is slow, then redraw is slow.
      Compare the redraw of Google Chrome and Mozilla Firefox. Chrome redraws fast. Firefox redraws slowly, especially when loading a page.

      Wayland, MacOS X Quartz and the Windows 7 compositor avoid this problem by being "compositing window managers". They cache the contents of each window in a local buffer, a so called "backing store" and redraw by copying pixels from the backing store.

      You can use the compositing window manager Compiz together with X11 to get faster redraw. Today. Without needing to stop using X. With retained network transparency, etc. With all the X extensions that you need.

      To me, Wayland seems like a solution to only one problem: There is some tiny tiny lag in the way that Compiz redraws. Not enough that people will notice it, though.

      --
      "We mustn't be caught by surprise by our own advancing technology" -- Aldous Huxley
    37. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Android: prodigal son or enfant terrible?

      There is an android-x86 project, just so you know. I'm less certain the virtues of Android would translate to the desktop. It may be more worthwhile to merge the nice bits upstream.

    38. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by LordLimecat · · Score: 2

      Maybe my memory is faulty, but for all the faults Vista had "Aero CPU usage" is not one I recall-- since the ENTIRE POINT was that the desktop was graphics accelerated (hence, no cpu usage).

    39. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by spitzak · · Score: 1

      X11 wire protocol is asynchronous, but the majority of xlib calls are effectively synchronous, because they wait for a return value from the server (send asynchronously over the wire) before they return. The only thing that is actually async is the drawing api, the very part that is not used by modern X applications. Modern ones (including any using Cairo) draw into a local image and then copy that image to the server, because that is less data than all the calls to set individual pixels on the server that they would otherwise have to use. At the time X was designed drawing images was considered a horrifically expensive operation for only the top-most workstations and it actually requires *several* sequential synchronous calls.

      Tearing is certainly a problem with X11 because it lacks an "I am done drawing the window" call that the server can use as an indicator as to when it can actually sync with the vertical retrace. Apparently the internal design of X11 is quite a mess because this has not been ever added despite the obvious usefulness.

      Tearing is also caused by the seperate window manager drawing the borders from the clients drawing the contents. It is IMPOSSIBLE to make this work without glitches. Notice that increasing machine speeds by hundreds of times in the last 30 years has not fixed it.

    40. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by Enderandrew · · Score: 1

      It was supposed to remove load from the CPU, but every benchmark showed it added CPU load.

      http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/just-how-much-extra-system-resources-does-vista-aero-ui-take/107

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    41. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Tearing is certainly a problem with X11 because it lacks an "I am done drawing the window" call that the server can use as an indicator as to when it can actually sync with the vertical retrace.

      XDBESwapBuffers seems up to the task. Combined with a compositing window manager which also uses double buffering and getting borders to move without tearing (which is possibly the most minor problem in my life ever) should work.

      I honestly don't know why it doesn't work often. I had tear-free OpenGL on Linux in 2005 happily. Perhaps it's like copy/paste under X11.

      The protocol was capable of supporting rich types since 1988 (yep, the 80s). It's actually simple and elegant and the ICCCM is easy to follow in that particular part (I know, I've implemented it and it works fine). But noone used it and for ages, proper copy/paste didn't work for absolutely no good reason.

      Apparently the internal design of X11 is quite a mess because this has not been ever added despite the obvious usefulness.

      The protocol or the xorg implementation? If the latter, then there's no reason to nuke the protocol and all its advantages.

      Tearing is also caused by the seperate window manager drawing the borders from the clients drawing the contents. It is IMPOSSIBLE to make this work without glitches.

      Not with coompositing winow, it's not a problem. Also, the window managers doing the decorations prevents the stuck windows for crashed programs problem.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    42. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by jbolden · · Score: 1

      That article is about applications using old APIs. The Metro / Win8 stuff scales fine.

    43. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by Enderandrew · · Score: 1

      But people will have non-Metro applications and the OS can't handle it properly.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    44. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by jbolden · · Score: 1

      The reason X11 is slow (or rather seems slow) is because X11 is an asynchronous API.

      I'm not sure I agree with your analysis though it is well argued. asynchronous is generally preferable, but scheduling of asynchronous events needs to carefully considered. Synchronous programming for I/O is much easier. As an aside Aqua, Aero and Metro are asynchronous as well.

    45. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by lister+king+of+smeg · · Score: 1

      you want android on the desktop yet we all decry at the vary idea of touch centric gu'is on the desktop, unity gnome 3 metro/modern, all we need to do is port the graphics code.

      --
      ---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
    46. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by Vegemeister · · Score: 1

      <?xml version="1.0"?><!DOCTYPE fontconfig SYSTEM "fonts.dtd">
      <fontconfig>
          <match target="font">
              <edit mode="assign" name="rgba">
                  <const>rgb</const>
              </edit>
          </match>

          <match target="font">
              <edit mode="assign" name="hinting">
                  <bool>true</bool>
              </edit>
          </match>

          <match target="font">
              <edit mode="assign" name="hintstyle">
                  <const>hintslight</const>
              </edit>
          </match>

          <match target="font">
              <edit mode="assign" name="antialias">
                  <bool>true</bool>
              </edit>
          </match>

          <match target="font">
              <edit mode="assign" name="lcdfilter">
                  <const>lcddefault</const>
              </edit>
          </match>

      </fontconfig>

    47. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Not really. Bit maps aren't supposed to scale, they are supposed to be resolution fixed. The operating system is correctly handling a bit mapped graphics paradigm. One can question whether they should use a non resolution independent paradigm as heavily as they did, and I'd agree that was an unwise choice. But that's not a problem of Metro rather that's a problem of choices made in the early days of Windows and carrying them forward.

    48. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by spitzak · · Score: 1

      XDBESwapBuffers seems up to the task

      No, XDBE is slower than making a pixmap, drawing to that, and copying to the main window, at least on XOrg. I know because I had to delete all uses of XDBE from fltk because it was slower.

      The protocol or the xorg implementation? If the latter, then there's no reason to nuke the protocol and all its advantages.

      I suspect the implementation, not the protocol. It seems like it would be trivial to add a "flush drawing" op (for back compatibility it must be called once, otherwise the server has to flush after every draw). Another more tricky but workable solution is to make it do this internally when XNextEvent is called.

      Not with coompositing window, it's not a problem.

      It is possible to avoid, but very wasteful, even for compositing window managers. Basically you have to have 2 copies of both the window border and contents and you cannot switch to the new ones until you are certain that both have been updated. Another option is for the compositing wm to defer *all* updates of the screen until it is known that all resized windows have both the contents and border redrawn, though this allows bad clients to block updates to the screen.

      In Wayland the client draws both the contents and border into it's own buffer and the sending of that buffer pointer to the server is the "I am done" indicator. The server never even sees a partially-updated window. This is why it will be much cleaner and faster.

    49. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First, Android's graphic subsystem is probably closer to Wayland than X11. The reason X11 is slow (or rather seems slow) is because X11 is an asynchronous API. That means things like window resizing and widget redrawing are all done without any synchronization, at roughly the same time, but not in any particular order. This means that you often get stuttering and tearing. So oddly enough if you use a compositing manager on Linux (any modern desktop), moving windows around is very snappy. Resizing windows is much better than it used to be because the widget toolkits have gotten much better at things like event compression, and even using synchronization extensions to X11 to time redraws to coincide with refresh rates. Also the API involves a lot of round-trips to the server, so over the network it's extremely chatty and subject to latency.

      Being asynchronous is quite valuable if you're operating over a network. The biggest problem here is libX11's API is very poor. Some function calls require a round-trip and some don't. Those are documented, but there is no way to preemptively issue an X operation you'll need later and then continue with other operations that don't interact. XCB takes care of this major problem and the improvement is quite large. Alas, libX11 is still the one everyone is familiar with.

    50. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by fikx · · Score: 1

      2. Linux desktop is hacked together from thousands of seperate pices of software. That it works out of the box at all is an achievement.

      Or a sign of a good design, Just a thought...

      --
      AB HOC POSSUM VIDERE DOMUM TUUM
    51. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, as an earlier commenter pointed out, Wayland is ambivalent to, not lacking in network transparency. Network transparency is dependent on the compositor, which has been modulerized by the Wayland project. You can use any compositor you want, such as KDE's Kwin which is network transparent, just Wayland's default compositor Westin is not.

    52. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by smash · · Score: 1

      Vista came out 6 years ago, by the way.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    53. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FTFY. Also, perhaps the only decent advice on fonts on the interwebs.

      <?xml version="1.0"?>
      <!DOCTYPE fontconfig SYSTEM "fonts.dtd">
      <fontconfig>
          <match target="font">
              <edit name="hinting" mode="assign"><bool>false</bool></edit>
              <edit name="autohint" mode="assign"><bool>false</bool></edit>
              <edit name="hintstyle" mode="assign"><const>hintnone</const></edit>
              <edit name="rgba" mode="assign"><const>none</const></edit>
              <edit name="lcdfilter" mode="assign"><const>lcdnone</const></edit>
          </match>
      </fontconfig>

    54. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      No, XDBE is slower than making a pixmap, drawing to that, and copying to the main window, at least on XOrg. I know because I had to delete all uses of XDBE from fltk because it was slower.

      Yuck. That seems like an implementation issue. glxSwapBuffers is basically instantaneous. I remember XFree86 having a terrible implementation of backing store as well. The hardware can clearly flip buffers quickly, but I guess they never implemented it: if copying a pixmap is fast, then it could implement flip as a copy during the vblank interval.

      It is possible to avoid, but very wasteful, even for compositing window managers. Basically you have to have 2 copies of both the window border and contents and you cannot switch to the new ones until you are certain that both have been updated.

      You need 3 buffers at most. Application draws into its back buffer. Then flips to its front buffer, which is an offscreen tree. The compositing wm draws into that tree, then during the vblank copies/flips the entire lot into the front buffer.

      If it's done with an OpenGL compositing window manager, that is really efficient.

      In Wayland the client draws both the contents and border into it's own buffer and the sending of that buffer pointer to the server is the "I am done" indicator. The server never even sees a partially-updated window. This is why it will be much cleaner and faster.

      It will be a bit cleaner to get tear free window resizing and moving: you will need to triple buffer instead of double buffer.

      Also, the Wayland design is agnostic as to who performs window management. At the moment they're trying to encourage client side decorations. If they're done as server side decorations then the problems will be exactly the same.

      If they have client side decorations, making arbitrary window management schemes like X11 will be much less clean and a far messier architecture. Preventing the crashed/hung/slow application leaves immovable windows problem will require nasty hacks.

      Basically, the Wayland system makes the simple case simpler (from scratch rewrites always do). What it misses is all the slightly less common but much more difficult cases. Which is something that from scratch rewrites almost always do.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    55. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by spitzak · · Score: 1

      No the problem with XDBE is that it was designed for on-screen clipped windows. The back buffer is assumed to be clipped by overlapping windows. This added a *lot* of crap to link the two buffers permanently together and it appears it is such a mess that the implementation is slower even when this is not needed. Two unrelated buffers with a blt between them is pretty much the best you can do with the X api. Wayland lets the client tell the server to just "use" the new buffer, eliminating the unnecessary blt.

      Your idea to eliminate the async window borders will not work. X does not have any method for the client to tell which window resize event it is responding do so the wm cannot tell if it is drawing the borders around the correct window contents. No number of double or triple buffers is ever going to fix it. A fix that would work and fit with how X11 is to add an api so the wm just tells the client what size it wants the window to be but it is the client's job to resize the window, plus a "I am done drawing" message from client to wm. Then the wm could use the size of the window to figure out how big to draw the borders. Still a pain in the ass as the wm may be resizing and thus has to still keep track of the "desired" window size which will be different than the "current" window size. Also there is a latency problem in that the wm has to wait for the "I am done drawing" message from the client before starting to draw the window borders.

      If you have ever tried to get the window decorations to be "correct" (such as reliably knowing if there will be a close box so you can avoid having another method of closing the window) you would know just how much of an incredible horror server-side decorations are. Apparently you have not done this or just given up.

    56. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by Vegemeister · · Score: 1

      Assuming you're not using a CRT, lcddefault filter and subpixel AA looks much better.

    57. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Samsung Android phone is very nice - I log it on to my home wireless network, and get better youtube and live TV performance than on any of my laptops or desktops

      Hell, I get far better performance on my Samsung Android than my older iphone. Sure, the iphone is older and slower, so I expect that, but I wasn't prepared for how slow it is in -every- capacity. The Samsung phone renders web pages so much faster, the network downloads are so much faster, even when both phones are connected to the same local wireless network. Just a network download using the same network connection was dog-slow on the iphone, and that was even the case after it was re-flashed to use the factory default OS. I was never able to figure out why this was the case.

    58. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, I've tried subpixel rendering on multiple LCDs and every time it hurts my eyes, no matter whether it's Windows, OS X, Freetype, or Adobe doing the rendering.

      It's a personal preference. I like greyscale rendering, and OS X does it best. (Windows's font rendering looks bad both with and without cleartype. They don't provide a proper greyscale option.)

    59. Re:Why are graphics awesome on Android? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      No the problem with XDBE is that it was designed for on-screen clipped windows.

      I don't see anything specific about clipping in the XDBE API, except that the back buffer is drawn with the same clipping as the front buffer. In the case of BackingStore (ancient) or XComposite (modern) there won't be any clipping.

      Wayland lets the client tell the server to just "use" the new buffer, eliminating the unnecessary blt.

      No, that's not how it works. If you're talking about the whole screen buffer, then sure. It works like that. The graphics card just twiddles the base pointer in the RAMDAC, or HDMI/DVI/DP encoder chip.

      But for individual windows it does not work like that.

      The individual window buffers still have to be drawn to the screen, however. For that, Wayland has to basically issue a bunch of glQuad calls or, a more modern equivalent. That's a trivial amount of effort for any card which supports OpenGL, but it still ultimately has to composite the individual window textures onto primary back buffer.

      Your idea to eliminate the async window borders will not work. X does not have any method for the client to tell which window resize event it is responding do so the wm cannot tell if it is drawing the borders around the correct window contents.

      Not sure I follow. The WM controls resizing of all the direct children of Root, by setting the Redirect flag. The application, or others can request a resize, but the WM has total control over the actual resizing.

      fix that would work and fit with how X11 is to add an api so the wm just tells the client what size it wants the window to be but it is the client's job to resize the window, plus a "I am done drawing" message from client to wm.

      ick. That would allow clients ot override the WM, so you could no longer use the window manager to force badly behaved programs to behave. Also, if the client is running slow, then the resize would hang until the client had finished.

      Also there is a latency problem in that the wm has to wait for the "I am done drawing" message from the client before starting to draw the window borders.

      The round trip ping time via IP is about 25us on my computer. Unix domain sockets are probably somewhat faster. You'll need about 700 round trips before the latency is even potentially visible (cusing one frame delay at 60fps).

      Actually, this seems to be one of the terribly fuddy points from some of the Wayland team. But kernel latencies on IPC are very, very small and have been for years. Interestingly, there have been a few attempts (in the 90s) at protocol extensions for passing the entire protocol over shared memory to increase speed.

      By 2000 or so, the improvement was so minimal that it was no longer worth pursuing further. http://dri.freedesktop.org/wiki/SharedMemoryTransport

      If you have ever tried to get the window decorations to be "correct" (such as reliably knowing if there will be a close box so you can avoid having another method of closing the window) you would know just how much of an incredible horror server-side decorations are. Apparently you have not done this or just given up.

      No, I am firmly of the user knows best and that programs should absoloutely not try to do things like that. I am continually having to add config lines to FVWM to override the stupid behaviour of programs which believe that they know more about window management than my window manager.

      Client side decoration make it essentially impossible for the user to enforce any degree of sanity on the system and so the user is entirely at the whim of the application developer.

      Please, PLEASE do not write programs which use hacks to decide whether or not to display a close button. Most window managers provide them. The ones that don't provide other mechanisms and the users of those certainly don't want you to give them extra GUI elements.

      Basically server side decorations are only a horror for people who believe that they know better than their users. Client side decorations are a horror for the users.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
  6. Increased performance? by Smartcowboy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Imagine recreating xlib so it doesn't communicate with an X server but directly draws things on the local screen, maybe in a multithreaded fashion. In such a scenario, the ability to share a display between many programs would be lost or alternatively a badly behaviored program could disrupt the other's windows. What kind of increased performance would be obtained (if any) by replacing IPC, as used in X11 (and in wayland too?) for drawing and use in process fonctions instead?

    1. Re:Increased performance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For 2D, if performance is an issue it's almost always a driver problem (usually because the vendors don't provide full specs and X.org or the like can only provide rudimentary support). For 3D, IPC for local cases hasn't been used in a long time.

      Some of the key concepts are a bit outdated, though, such as individual X11 widgets being server-side objects (which has caused toolkits to actually stop mapping UI elements 1:1 to X11 widgets, which has both advantages and drawbacks).

      Even with traditional X11 protocols over-extended to provide modern UIs, over a local fast LAN, remote displays are nice and fast. Locally, with the X.org NVidia drivers, even 2D is painful...but running the same software on the same machine with the UI displayed on a different machine with better drivers, it's very snappy.

  7. How long? by whoever57 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    but how much longer will it take to replace X11 on the Linux desktop? Quite a while seems likely."

    Try never. Yes, I know that it should be possible to write a Wayland client that provides X11 server capability, but in that case, it is the Wayland client that is replacing X11, not Wayland.

    Seriously, though, the Wayland effort appears to be throwing out every advantage the X11 display had over the Windows display for a replacement that will probably never be quite as good as a Windows. I just hope that developers of programs which currently support X11 continue to support X11, or my life will get much more difficult. In fact, for much of what I do, without X11 support (and only Wayland display supported), I would probably be better off with a Windows desktop instead of a Linux desktop.

    --
    The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    1. Re:How long? by MBCook · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Seriously, though, the Wayland effort appears to be throwing out every advantage the X11 display had over the Windows display for a replacement that will probably never be quite as good as a Windows.

      Emphasis is mine. Other than network transparency, what advantages did X11 have that Wayland doesn't? What other advantages did X11 have period?

      Losing network transparency will effect some people, but there are some solutions to that. I'd wager the majority of linux GUIs deployed in the world don't use that feature (between embedded stuff like TiVos, normal desktops, TVs running Linux, etc). But I can tell you from more than 10 years of following Linux development that no one seems to actually like X11. From what I've read the various GUI developers seem to love Wayland compared X and can't wait for it to take over. X seems to be a giant ball of mud that's always getting in peoples way, hampering performance, and a pain in the ass to configure. The fact that it handles hardware setup, drawing, input, network transparency, fonts, 3D, and so much more it's clearly not following the unix philosophy of small tools doing one job.

      Every time Wayland comes up, people come out of the woodwork to declare it a failure because it won't run over a network, but that's the only real gripe I've seen. You say there are others, I'm curious to know what they are.

      --
      Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
    2. Re:How long? by whoever57 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Every time Wayland comes up, people come out of the woodwork to declare it a failure because it won't run over a network, but that's the only real gripe I've seen. You say there are others, I'm curious to know what they are.

      Network transparency is very useful for administering servers. It is very useful to run the various GUI programs that I run on various servers on our office network. Wayland supporters have suggested using VNC for that, but it misses the point, since that implies one VNC session per remote machine, which means multiple VNC sessions, each with its own window manager, issues with copying and pasting, etc..

      The other key advantage that X11 has: if the application is mis-behaving the application's window can still be controlled by the window manager. Ever seen windows on a Windows desktop that cannot be minimized? Wayland is bringing that to Linux.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    3. Re:How long? by rnturn · · Score: 1

      "In fact, for much of what I do, without X11 support (and only Wayland display supported), I would probably be better off with a Windows desktop instead of a Linux desktop."

      I wonder if you haven't cracked the code. I see Wayland as just one more thing to make Linux more like Windows. (Like that's even a goal that the Linux community should be aspiring to.)

      Personally, I would rather have a root canal without anesthetic than administer UNIX/Linux systems using a Windows desktop. If it weren't for Cygwin having a Windows desktop would be intolerable. Pity there isn't a way (at least I have seen one yet) to implement multiple workspaces on a Windows system.

      --
      CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
    4. Re:How long? by Dwedit · · Score: 1

      I think Windows fixed this in XP. I've seen programs that stop responding still be able to be minimized or force-closed with the X.

    5. Re:How long? by RightwingNutjob · · Score: 2, Funny

      Every time Wayland comes up, people come out of the woodwork to declare it a failure because it won't run over a network, but that's the only real gripe I've seen. You say there are others, I'm curious to know what they are.

      Every time the electric car comes up, people come out of the woodwork to declare it a failure because it won't go more than 100 miles without a long recharge, but that's the only real gripe I've seen. You say there are others, I'm curious to know what they are. Every time the web appliance comes up, people come out of the woodwork to declare it a failure because it won't do anything besides surf the web, but that's the only real gripe I've seen. You say there are others, I'm curious to know what they are. Every time the Segway comes up, people come out of the woodwork to declare it a failure because it's too expensive and can't actually live up to the promises of changing urban design, but that's the only real gripe I've seen. You say there are others, I'm curious to know what they are. Do the words "deal-breaking deficiency" mean anything?

    6. Re:How long? by smash · · Score: 2, Informative

      I think you'll find there are far more people doing this via RDP, ICA or VNC, quite happily than there are via X11.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    7. Re:How long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, obviously having been around for decades it has the incumbency advantage -- all major toolkits support it, there are X servers for Linux, BSD, Solaris, Mac, Windows, Android, etc., and there are drivers already written.
      Existing solutions for glue like IME, copy/paste, drag and drop...

      It has the window manager as a separate component, giving users free choice between composing window managers, tiling window managers, etc, independent of what desktop and applications they run.

    8. Re:How long? by sl3xd · · Score: 1

      but how much longer will it take to replace X11 on the Linux desktop? Quite a while seems likely."

      Try never. Yes, I know that it should be possible to write a Wayland client that provides X11 server capability, but in that case, it is the Wayland client that is replacing X11, not Wayland.

      Seriously, though, the Wayland effort appears to be throwing out every advantage the X11 display had over the Windows display for a replacement that will probably never be quite as good as a Windows. I just hope that developers of programs which currently support X11 continue to support X11, or my life will get much more difficult. In fact, for much of what I do, without X11 support (and only Wayland display supported), I would probably be better off with a Windows desktop instead of a Linux desktop.

      A couple of things:

      1.) Wayland isn't trying to be X.
      - Every 'native' Wayland program will have to be specifically compiled for Wayland.
      - Wayland has an in-development X11 server, where X.org uses Wayland as a frame buffer (instead of X.org providing its own). This is really more like Xquartz or any of the X11 implementations on Windows. Neither OS X nor Windows can run X11 apps natively, and neither will Wayland.

      2.) Wayland's policy towards network transparency is best described in their FAQ: "that is outside the scope of Wayland." They have no intention of providing a native mechanism for network transparency in Wayland, period. The FAQ then points to the decidedly non-transparent VNC and RFB, and finally to simply bolting X11 onto Wayland. I remember a quote from a Wayland presentation with respect to network transparency: It'll be "whatever you want it to be, baby" - a rather sarcastic way of saying "because you'll have to code it yourself".

      While they claim that network transparency is "orthogonal" to what Wayland is doing, I suspect that is far from the truth.

      As a build master for quite a lot of software, this makes me begs the question: If I'm going to have to compile it for X11 to have network transparency to begin with, then why in the world would I even bother with Wayland? I'll just compile the apps for X11, ignore Wayland entirely. Toolkits like Qt, GTK, or wxWindows may be able to support a fallback from direct Wayland to X11... but if we're still stuck with X11, then why are we bothering with Wayland to begin with?

      I don't anticipate Wayland's uptake to be swift. It's not a replacement for X, and for most early use cases, you'll have to run both Wayland and X11 just to run the apps you want to run.
      - The toolkits aren't ready: I don't know which version of GTK is to support Wayland, but I do know it'll be supported by Qt5, which isn't out.
      - After that, there'll be the massive task of re-compiling everything for both Wayland and X11, because distros have to support both use cases.

      Wayland has a long road ahead - job #1 is for the toolkits to fully support it (vs. the experimental status Wayland currently has). That's going to take at least a year. Qt5, if it's anything like Qt4 (or 3, or 2...) will require application porting, which also takes time. There's the issue of getting Drivers written for Wayland - again, something that will take time.

      --
      -- Sometimes you have to turn the lights off in order to see.
    9. Re:How long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dexpot is an application that you can use to implement multiple workspaces. There is a lot to configure and can be hard to figure out at first, but it works for me.

    10. Re:How long? by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1

      the last 4 places I've worked only used RDP or ICA for displaying windows apps on Linux. VNC has only ever been a last resort protocol. X11's network transparency is the only way to get stripped down Linux installs for things like Oracle and their crappy dependance on a working X11 display (local or remote)

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    11. Re:How long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      backwards and forwards compatibility. I still can't believe that somebody would throw away a decade of compatiblity for NO GOOD REASON. (They admit that they could achieve everything Wayland does by extending X.)

    12. Re:How long? by MadMaverick9 · · Score: 1

      Losing network transparency will effect some people, but there are some solutions to that.

      Why do I need to find a solution for something that already works today? That's just stupid and a waste of everybody's time.

    13. Re:How long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Replaceable WMs is a good thing, and AFAIK Wayland calls for that to be baked into the server, not user serviceable. History has told me that I will never agree with the defaults that those motherfuckers who create distros provide. I need a WM that doesn't suck.

    14. Re:How long? by whoever57 · · Score: 2

      I think you'll find there are far more people doing this via RDP, ICA or VNC, quite happily than there are via X11.

      RDP on a Linux server? I don't think so.

      As I pointed out, VNC is a solution to admin a single server, as soon as you have more than one, then you need multiple VNC sessions, which is ugly.

      What I typically use is a single VNC session on one machine in the LAN, from which I run lots of X11 programs on various different systems (sending their displays to the VNC session). Then I can access the VNC session from home or work, giving me persistent sessions, reasonably fast WAN access, all my admin programs grouped together in one set (the VNC session) all without having to deal with multiple VNC sessions.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    15. Re:How long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cant' speak to RDP, but VNC does screen scraping and sends bitmaps across the network. On my local network (gigabit), VNC is a bloated pig. X11 tunneled over ssh kicks the shit out of VNC in usability of remote apps. It's not even close. VNC is borderline unusable, while with X11, for most apps I can't even tell they are not running locally. Granted, for some 3D apps that isn't true, but for most 2D apps, it performs as if they are running on the local box.

      VNC is pig.

    16. Re:How long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, Wayland will only include a compositor, which Wayland-compatible compositing WMs can integrate with. You aren't forced to use any particular WM.

    17. Re:How long? by aztracker1 · · Score: 1

      Because most window managers and gui toolkits in use today can't effectively use most of the spec, except bit block support and network streaming.. doing both together in X is often more overhead than an improved VNC could do... remote rendering is cool, but they aren't using the primitives in place. Why shouldn't we use an aircraft carrier instead of a speedboat? What 99.999% of what people need is supported by Wayland... The missing network support will likely be an application/wm abstraction to it, or added in later. RDP runs pretty damned well compared to VNC, I'm sure wayland can do something similar.

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
    18. Re:How long? by aztracker1 · · Score: 1

      So is supporting a codebase the size of an aircraft carrier, when nobody uses any of it beyond the flight deck... some times code bloat is so heavy, you need to make dramatic changes.

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
    19. Re:How long? by aztracker1 · · Score: 1

      WTF are you talking about... there's dozens of addons for windows to give you multiple workspaces.. even full on explorer shell replacements if you really don't like the UI.

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
    20. Re:How long? by aztracker1 · · Score: 1

      I don't have any gui tools on my linux servers... so don't think I need the X11 compatibility.

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
    21. Re:How long? by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      I don't have any gui tools on my linux servers... so don't think I need the X11 compatibility.

      In my experiance, it is a lot easier to setup and manage VMs using virt-manager than virsh.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    22. Re:How long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try xpra (http://xpra.org/)

    23. Re:How long? by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      They didn't.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    24. Re:How long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Microsoft implemented very minimal support for manipulating windows of an unresponsive application through some hacks in the window manager, really just moving and minimizing. In Win32, the application's window procedure is supposed to be handling the input events and translating them to the window modifications. This can't happen if the application is hung, so XP pretends to do it directly once it notices the hung application. It's a cheat, though, and there's very little you can do with the window.

    25. Re:How long? by JDG1980 · · Score: 2

      Network transparency is very useful for administering servers

      Which is fine if you want Linux to be purely a server OS. If you want Linux to have any success in other markets, then having a smooth graphical user experience is almost always more important than remote GUI admin capabilities.

      What's wrong with retaining X11 for servers only, and switching to something more appropriate for other Linux installations?

    26. Re:How long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What people seem to miss is what APIs the Terminal Server software offers to the *NIX software that runs with it: it is X11, no matter if you use vnc, xvfb, nx, etc. So the X11 protocol still remains relevant in these use cases although X11 network transparency is not. Unless there is a straightforward way for the toolkits, i.e. Qt, gtk, etc. to use a single new protocol for "virtualized" displays they will have to maintain seperate implementations for Wayland and X11.

      For me it is not the network transparency implementation of X11 that is worth keeping because it is not great at all, but it is that the software itself does not have to understand whether stuff gets rendered locally or remote. I hope that Wayland will evolve in a way to make things easy for the toolkit authors and then provide an extension mechanism to add the network protocols de jour.

    27. Re:How long? by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      >> I'd wager the majority of linux GUIs deployed in the world don't use that feature (between embedded stuff like TiVos, normal desktops, TVs running Linux, etc).

      Umm you're totally not understanding the use-case. Its not the GUI that uses the feature, its the user.

      For example, I have a crappy old laptop that has barely enough horsepower to be an X client, yet I can run fairly intense graphical applications on it just as if they were running locally, because the actual app is really running somewhere else.

      Similarly, I can do all sorts of hacking on my mythTV box with GUI-based tools running over wifi, while my son is using the actual display to watch Spongebob.

    28. Re:How long? by GeniusDex · · Score: 1

      The other key advantage that X11 has: if the application is mis-behaving the application's window can still be controlled by the window manager. Ever seen windows on a Windows desktop that cannot be minimized? Wayland is bringing that to Linux.

      It is still possible to support server-side window decorations. The Wayland compositor will be the unification of what currently are a separate compositor and window manager and should support all old functionality. For example, KWin will use server-side decorations by default.

    29. Re:How long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In addition you can safely give untrusted applications access to your X server, without them being able to e.g. make screen captures or read out what you are typing into other windows.
      I do not know about wayland, but Windows allows you even to replace another application's Windows, overlay a Window on top of it and generally do whatever you want, so just throwing network transparancy on top would just add another way to do phishing and similar.

    30. Re:How long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WTF are you talking about... there's dozens of addons for windows to give you multiple workspaces.. even full on explorer shell replacements if you really don't like the UI.

      And they ALL SUCK, full stop.

    31. Re:How long? by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 1

      I'm gratified by how much the animation on their front page looks exactly like managing workspaces with Unity...

    32. Re:How long? by Tailhook · · Score: 3, Informative

      Network transparency is very useful for administering servers

      You're in luck then because Wayland will provide exactly the sort of efficient remote display necessary for this and most other use cases. Here is the man himself, Kristian Høgsberg, demonstrating a prototype of this. Watch and learn and try to make allowance for the fact that this stuff has probably never run beyond any anything other than Kristian's development machine.

      Wayland supporters have suggested using VNC for that

      The blind leading the blind. Wayland, by its nature, has precise information about what it composites. Kristian explains how this can will be used to make efficient, round-trip-free remote displays work.

      Eventually Wayland will provide a better remote desktop experience than X. Please know of what you speak before you condemn it.

      --
      Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
    33. Re:How long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But only minimize and close. You still can't move the program out of the way.

    34. Re:How long? by dkf · · Score: 1

      Eventually Wayland will provide a better remote desktop experience than X.

      Eventually we're all dead.

      OK, that's slightly harsh. There's no believable roadmap for getting to where you're describing, so it might as well be a vaporware announcement. These things don't happen by magic. (The only way to get snappy GUIs over a network is to not ship pixel buffers around; that's the operation that is genuinely painful operation, whatever the rest of the protocol is like.)

      Of course, what I (as someone involved in toolkit maintenance) want out of a replacement for X11 is to no longer have to deal with different window visuals or bit depths or window dimensions limited to 16-bit values. A richer model for remote composition would be nice, but the horrible pain (as a toolkit author) is elsewhere. A properly documented and sane system for input methods would be nice too, but I don't believe that will happen (based on too much experience).

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    35. Re:How long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No way, it's much easier to ssh -X server and the run apps and the magically just appear on your desktop. This is amazingly useful for admin and software development work.

    36. Re:How long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seriously, though, the Wayland effort appears to be throwing out every advantage the X11 display had over the Windows display for a replacement that will probably never be quite as good as a Windows.

      Emphasis is mine. Other than network transparency, what advantages did X11 have that Wayland doesn't? What other advantages did X11 have period?

      This is why I really hate a big part of the Linux community. Nowadays more and more features get lost because not enough people use this feature. Apparently people don't get it that the power of Linux was flexibility. If I want a bling bling gaming system I use windows. If I need to do work I use a Un*x system. If Linux has no longer that advantage and *BSD is cursed with Apple's lawyers I'll single boot win7. If Linux feels to complicated for you, don't use it at home, but leave the power to the sysadmins at your workplace. (Not that there were GL accelerated X terminals that were completely fine, but their feature set is outdated by now. I am also fine with GL acceleration in each Xwindow. I don't need transparency effects between windows at work. (And neither while gaming in fullscreen)).

      So if you want new features please leave the old stuff working. Reminds me of similar silly stunts from desktop.org that screwed with separate usr partitions.

    37. Re:How long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you'll find there are far more people doing this via RDP, ICA or VNC, quite happily than there are via X11.

      Doesn't matter if there are more people using other protocols. There are enough people that have (and need) lightweight X interfaces on their work desktop collaborating multiple server/cluster applications and need to oversee them at the same time and having a full desktop for each just doesn't cut it. Is it so hard to keep networking as a feature?

    38. Re:How long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What 99.999% of what people need is supported by Wayland...

      or windows7 for that matter... Also reversing protocol layers isn't a good idea.

    39. Re:How long? by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Unless there is a straightforward way for the toolkits, i.e. Qt, gtk, etc. to use a single new protocol for "virtualized" displays they will have to maintain seperate implementations for Wayland and X11.

      At least Qt already keeps separate graphics backends for Windows, Mac and Linux, a quick search suggests they already have Wayland mostly working as a backend.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    40. Re:How long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1. Xorg networking is a pain if you do not do it over LAN and then it still suffers some glitches. Nowadays people prefer x2go or RDP solutions. I user SSH with X forwarding regularly, but I don't see how this cannot be done as seaminglessly with x2go. The technology behind x2go does not rely on X11's network transparency at all. And look at how well RDP performs, too.

      2. It is an easy job for the compositor (Weston et al.) to minimize any window, the application being frozen or not.

    41. Re:How long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you'll find there are far more people doing this via RDP, ICA or VNC, quite happily than there are via X11.

      Perhaps there are "more people", but I'm not sure sure about "quite happy". If they were shown a way to run a single application in a rootless way, I'm sure it would be a lot less hassle to run that one program instead of having to invoke an entire desktop environment.

      I also recently ran across xpra ("screen/tmux for X11"), and the awesomeness of X11's transparency has been improved by an order of magnitude:

      http://xpra.org/

    42. Re:How long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Network transparency is very useful for administering servers. It is very useful to run the various GUI programs that I run on various servers on our office network.

      The problem is that you get network transparency which is *opaque*, because only *one* program can enjoy that connection, rather than implementing a proper server which could be contacted by different clients, one in your desktop, on in your mobile, or wherever, all concurrently and sharing the model in their different views (shit, did somebody say webapps? Run for your life!).

    43. Re:How long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That fix came after XP with Visa and 7.

    44. Re:How long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They didn't.

      It's definitely fixed in Vista/7/8, all the windows are rendered into offscreen buffers, minimizing and force closing is totally separated from whether the app responds. Wayland likewise has a compositor...

    45. Re:How long? by jabuzz · · Score: 2

      Really, perhaps you might try using a search engine. The xrdp and x11rdp combination provide an X11 server than spits out RDP and the necessary middleware. More than five years old...

    46. Re:How long? by MBCook · · Score: 1

      I get it's useful. I know people love it. I've used it myself. I realize that may be 95% of what X has that Wayland doesn't that people are interested in.

      My question is, what is that other 5%. He said "every advantage", I'm trying to find out if there is only one advantage or if there are others.

      --
      Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
    47. Re:How long? by spitzak · · Score: 1

      Wayland has a ping api so that non-responsive applications can be detected. You will be able to move, raise/lower, iconize/deiconize, select, and kill non-responsive applications. You will not be able to resize them (unless it does a crude simulation by scaling or clipping the image).

      This is already much better than Windows because it was designed for this from the start. I believe new Windows api has added something similar but they still have to run legacy programs.

    48. Re:How long? by spitzak · · Score: 1

      No, wayland will require the decorations to be drawn by the client side into the window image. The wayland server cannot draw into these images and any other solution would have the same problems as X11 (unnecessary extra surface for the decorations, requirements that the border between content/decoration be a rectangle, insane complex api to update the decorations, and ugly asynchronous update between the border and contents when windows are resized).

      In KDE the window borders will be drawn by Qt, and thus for most applications they are "drawn by the system". Note that this is how the buttons, scrollbars, and every other widget is drawn. The endless panic response that "the window borders will look different and that will confuse(TM) the user!!!!!!" seem to ignore that this has been either solved or not really a problem for buttons. Tell me the last time you could not figure out how to push a button because "it looked different".

    49. Re:How long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If pure Wayland works for you, that's great.

      The problem for build masters and distributions is that there is we have to support both, because we can't predict (or dictate to our users) whether Wayland or X11 will be used.

      We can't force users to use a particular desktop environment (such as KDE or GNUstep) either.

    50. Re:How long? by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      I for one wouldn't really miss X if Wayland could do the GUI-over-TCP thing, but I bet there's a lot of people with a ton of legacy X-based source code that would.

      X is available on many different platforms so there is that whole interoperability and de-facto standards argument too.

      I'm also thinking that X is relatively lightweight these days. Not that X has shrunk over time, but that everything else has become so bloated.

    51. Re:How long? by DiegoBravo · · Score: 1

      I think you have a misconfiguration issue. Anyway, try tightvnc. Definitively not a pig.

    52. Re:How long? by pak9rabid · · Score: 1

      ^ Seconded. I'm a happy xrdp user. It beats X11, VNC, x2go, and NX in my opinion.

    53. Re:How long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They did (to some extent).

      If the program stops responding, then Windows will take over the window management from the process...
      It is most visible, when you run an application that draws it's own window decorations. When it stops responding, the standard windows window decorations will appear, and with that you can move and resize.

      Maybe this does not cover 100% of the cases how an application can "freeze", but most of the time it works...

    54. Re:How long? by brunes69 · · Score: 1

      FWIW Anyone using X over a network for any kind of serious remote management has rocks in their head. It is a horribly inefficient protocol because of it's age, compared to modern protocols such as VNC and NX.

    55. Re:How long? by jbolden · · Score: 1

      It won't. Like Aero and Aqua it will fundamentally assume the application graphics buffer and the video card buffer are shared. The application protocol will not be robust enough to break that connection safely.

      It is a real trade off.

    56. Re:How long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've used all of the popular VNC implementations. They are all pigs and second rate at that, compared to X/SSH. The GP poster above is absolutely correct. You are wrong.

    57. Re:How long? by jgrahn · · Score: 1

      FWIW Anyone using X over a network for any kind of serious remote management has rocks in their head. It is a horribly inefficient protocol because of it's age, compared to modern protocols such as VNC and NX.

      X over ssh works very well for me. If it's horribly inefficient like you say, it doesn't show on the 100Mbit networks where I use it all day long. But then I use old, properly written applications, without bling and dancing hamsters.

    58. Re:How long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They did. If a process stops reading its message queue, it can still be minimized and resized, and the 'has stopped responding' dialog will appear after a message is sent.

    59. Re:How long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So why doesn't someone make a VNC viewer which is designed for multiple sessions, shares the clipboard, etc?

    60. Re:How long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree. It's very important to remain saddled to the past so that old people can be comfortable. It must be terribly awful to know that your perfect solutions aren't embraced as perfect by everyone else.

      Stupid people trying to improve things! Don't they realize everything was perfect back when you weren't an old fuckhead?

    61. Re:How long? by smash · · Score: 1

      Try doing it over a WAN to a remote third world location where the biggest pipe you can get is 256kbit over satellite.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    62. Re:How long? by smash · · Score: 1

      Is it so hard to add networking as a daemon to Wayland, for people who need it? Answer: No it is not.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    63. Re:How long? by smash · · Score: 1

      You can run seamless RDP or ICA apps, and have been able to do so since at least Windows 2000 and Metaframe of the day.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    64. Re:How long? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      GP is both right and wrong. It was fixed, but in Vista, not XP. If the program stops pumping window messages, rendering its window decoration unresponsive, the OS will kick in and take over temporarily, drawing the default decoration, and enabling the buttons.

    65. Re:How long? by emblemparade · · Score: 1

      Let me attempt clarify this further:

      Wayland does not entirely replace X11. You can definitely continue running an X11 server that renders to your local Wayland (it is a client of Wayland). The challenge is that this server is not ready yet. it needs to be programmed essentially from scratch, and include all the weird parts of X. But, the xwayland project is already running pretty nicely for the main parts of X11 that most toolkits require. Check out the demos!

      Toolkits such as GTK+ and Qt already support pluggable rendering backends (GTK+ even has a cool web backend!), so they would just need to create a new one to support Wayland. (It would be MUCH simpler than their X11 backend.) But, even if they don't support Wayland, they would be able to continue working through their X11 backend and the xwayland client.

      Bottom line is that Wayland (once xwayland is finished) will have only advantages. The toolkits already support X11, so all apps written for GTK+ and Qt will continue to support network transparency. But, when running locally, they will have the option of using a Wayland backend for much improved throughput.

      Thing is, what if people write applications without GTK+ or Qt, that use Wayland directly? These, of course, will not be able to enjoy network transparency. But, writing applications like that is highly specific and likely the coders will be doing it for a good reason.

    66. Re:How long? by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but it's still horribly unresponsive and annoying.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    67. Re:How long? by aztracker1 · · Score: 1

      I used to use a really nice LiteStep shell as a desktop replacement, liked it a lot.. it supported multiple desktops, with hot corners for swapping around. I stopped when I went to linux for a year, and then with win7, I liked it enough to stick with the default shell.

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
    68. Re:How long? by aztracker1 · · Score: 1

      And you can't predict/dictate a lot of things regarding the environment... which is why distributions for linux have everything + kitchen sink repositories. If wayland supports X11 apps on top of it (like OSX), and the gui toolkits (GTK, Qt) are migrated... I think that is a pretty good point of change. Most apps use GUI abstractions before the base X11 UI, so it should be easy enough to re-target them specifically.

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
    69. Re:How long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dexpot - I use it on my corporate desktop together with a dock to be able to retain at least some productivity on that windows box...

  8. Re:Good enough for Ubuntu by Enderandrew · · Score: 1

    He already said years ago that he intends for Ubuntu to use it as soon as it is ready. I expect Ubuntu will likely be the first major distro to do so.

    --
    http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
  9. Re:Good enough for Ubuntu by socceroos · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Yep, the issue with constantly pushing forwards and looking for the next new thing means that you can periodically make a bad choice. Shuttleworth, while some of his descisions haven't been the best, has been instrumental in pushing the Linux desktop to where it is today. Linux has never enjoyed so many desktop users. That brings good and bad, but its still an overall positive.

  10. Might be faster than you think by icebike · · Score: 1

    When you consider how fast the switch to x.org from xfree86 took place in three Linux world, any clearly superior x-like implementation with fully compatible APIs and without unacceptable license encumbrances could be adopted in very short order. If the functionality requires every program and every library to be reworked, then it will probably never happen.

    Not having ANY real Wayland knowledge, I can only hope it is not another change in Linux for change's sake.

    --
    Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    1. Re:Might be faster than you think by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Wayland is not compatible with X11. You can recompile a GTK program so it runs on Wayland, but existing X11 apps do not run on Wayland (they are working a crappy-ass Mac OS X like shim).

    2. Re:Might be faster than you think by tibit · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Existing X11 apps? Pray tell, what would those be? Does anyone care about xeyes anymore? I mean, I'd have thought that everything of note uses a framework/library of some sort that abstracts X11 away? Sure you need to port the framework, but the applications won't even know anything changed...

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    3. Re:Might be faster than you think by serviscope_minor · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Existing X11 apps?

      Yes.

      Pray tell, what would those be?

      Well, all the good window managers for a start. One of the HUGE advantages of X11 is that any user can freely replace the window manager. The move to Wayland would involve client side decorations (nothing inhernet in wayland, but the collective insanity of the Wayland developers seems to be pushing this policy), which massively limit what the compositor could realistically do.

      X11 allows GUIs as diverse as Unity and ratpoison. I sit in a happy medium with FVWM, and I like it very much. That I would lose with Wayland.

      And I still use xterm (I prefer it to any of the more modern terminals), xfig (still has some must have features) and xv (seriously? this program wasn't new in 1994! why do all subsequent views suck compared to it). I also have the odd hacked up thing using raw X11 because I find it very simple to use.

      (Oh yeah and network transparency.)

      <rant>

      At this point a whole bunch of people ususally come out of the woodwork and tell me how only 1% of users or whatever use that feature and most users don't care and blah blah blah.

      Well guess what Linux is never going to "win" the desktop. It is forever going to be used by people like me who take the effort to seek out something different. It used to be hacker friendly, letting you do stuff because you could, not blocking it because only 1% would use it or some other bullshit reason.

      Hobbling Linux in a misguided attempt to capture some "market" that it will never capture will only wreck it for the rest of us who actually like it for what it is aren't using it because we're too cheap to buy a Mac or Windows or whatever. I love it because I find I do weird 1% stuff all the time. If I want OSX I know where to get it, and I really, really don't want it.

      This is also the reason behind why firefox and gnome seriously break if you try to use (for instance) NFS mounted home directories. Because only 1% of users want it and so it is no longer well supported (and gives really idiotic error messages).

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    4. Re:Might be faster than you think by morgauxo · · Score: 1

      How does that work if I want it to run both ways? What I mean is say I have a desktop running Wayland. Occasionally I actually want to sit down at it and get full speed, full 3d, etc...

      So... GTK applications run using a copy of GTK which targets Wayland rather than X, QT apps run using a version of QT which targets Wayland. Now I am sitting at another computer elsewhere and want to run one of those programs on my Desktop but display it at the computer I am on. Can I somehow tell the application to use a different copy of GTK or QT which targets X instead of Wayland? Can this be done in some sort of wrapper or with a commandline option? Better yet, just using the DISPLAY environment variable? If so then this might be ok but why don't the Wayland developers just come out and explain this?

      I am thinking it would actually require a recompile. Meaning I would have to chose ahead of time, this application is going to support remote display or this application is going to be native Wayland. Given that choice they are ALL going to get compiled for X so why would I even bother with Wayland at all?

      Or is it even that flexible? Do I have to make this choice at the time of installing GTK or QT? I install the X GTK or the Wayland GTK? Then all GTK applications always use that choice all the time? That is not acceptable!

    5. Re:Might be faster than you think by tibit · · Score: 1

      I don't think anyone gives a rat's ass about window managers under any platform other than X11. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts. Nobody cares about X11 in its present form. It's a bunch of useless crap, it offers inherently no functionality that any modern application would care for except input, blitting and network transparency. Oh, and OpenGL extensions. Frameworks would just as happily dump support of this crap and go to a better alternative, were such to exist. I'm not commenting on the state of Wayland APIs, they may be crap too for all I know (because I don't).

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
  11. Application and Screen on Different Machines by billstewart · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The important feature about X Windows was Network Transparency - You could run an application on one computer with its screen output and keyboard and mouse input on a different computer. Sure, there are other ways to do it - lots of ssh sessions, or web browsing (especially with AJAX etc.), or competing window systems like NeWS, or screen emulators like VNC and Windows Remote Desktop - but fundamentally it's a lot cleaner to have some kind of network-transparent window system than to have an application need to drive a "screen" on its own machine.

    25 years later, do we still need this? Yes! Virtual machines are taking over the computer business, so you can't expect the application to be running on your desktop (even if it _is_ running in a VM on top of your desktop), screens are a wide range of different sizes and capabilities (laptops, tablets, big monitors, etc., which often don't resemble the machine the app is running on), web browsers are getting used in increasingly complex ways because Windows didn't have a convenient X interface, and there's more and more ugliness around, and more waste of resources trying to emulate things that X did adequately well.

    There are lots of good reasons to replace X, but Network Transparency is still the core feature, even if you want the application to have more control over the screen and its associated hardware than we had back in the 1980s, or if you want to move processing functions to different points between the client and the server (e.g. NeWS and NeXT's Display Postscript did some things differently, and Plan 9 and its successors had their own opinions about how to implement everything), but if Wayland doesn't offer Network Transparency yet, it's not an adequate X replacement.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
    1. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by mellon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nobody ever uses network transparency. Well, okay, perhaps a few thousand people do, but rounded to the nearest 1% of the total number of Windows or Mac users, _zero_ people use it. Network transparency should be a layer on top of the window system for those who need it, not something that's present and causing breakage by default.

    2. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Speak for yourself. I was just using the 'network transparency' features of X the other day, as well as NAS (Network Audio System) and going 'thank god this made it so easy!'

      Literally all you had to do was have the nasd daemon running on the client and fire up the app on the server. Same deal with X. I was able to spit out my app with full audio across the network. I wouldn't want to try Quake or something over it, but I'm sure that given some work on X11 and 10G ethernet I could probably do that as well.

      Honestly my problems at the moment are less with Wayland and more with them constantly fucking things up on the X11 front with the incessant streams of changes and deprecated features. In order to run MESA now you have to have a c++ compiler, and can't use any hardware other than Intel, AMD, or Nvidia (via nouveau) since all have been deprecated due to the removal of DRI1. Additionally despite YEARS of opportunity, there's still no inline way to have apps change display resolutions, so for those of us with 8/16 bit games we can't just fire them up, we have to run them in a dedicated 8 or 16 bit color X server, which oh by the way the latter doesn't work on any supported 3d hardware (MAYBE MAYBE R100/R200, although bother of those drivers are somewhat unreliable nowadays), and oh by the way we broke 8 bit palette support, so the former is in greyscale even on color displays (I ran into this after upgrading X on one of my laptops with an IGP345 on it. Horribly slow at 16/32 bit color, but with lots of 8 bit apps that'll run smooth).

      It's not wayland that's FUBAR, it's how they've been handling X for the past however many years that is. They keep talking about 'improving' on X, but they can't even keep X displaying the same features it had 10 years ago due to inadequate testing, so what do you expect them to do in another 5 years when wayland is really 'mature'? Break more shit because it didn't matter to them and tack on new crap you don't care about.

      That's just my 2c as an X user since the late 90s, having followed Utah-GLX, the starting of Mesa, The XF86/Xorg schism, and all the BS since.

    3. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by tibit · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It goes the other way: unless you design for network transparency from day one, you're not going to get it and have it perform well. There's no way to decently get network transparency as a layer on top of the window system. VNC and RDP are horrible kludges and perform like crap.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    4. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The problem with remote X is that most of the X API is not used anymore. Correct me if I'm wrong, but all X itself is used for anymore (with modern UI toolkits like GTK) is drawing pixmaps and input events, Everything else is done in extensions. So remote X comes down to receiving input events and sending pixmaps, which is what VNC does. Why bother putting something like that in the core of Wayland when it could be easily added later as an extension?

    5. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by 10101001+10101001 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And yet, Network Transparency is one of X's biggest weaknesses as well. The truth is, X's chief purpose in providing Network Transparency was in providing thin client/mainframe/whatever support over a LAN/WAN. This is incredibly transparent in a few ways: (1) there isn't a lot of heavy effort put into minimizing the data stream, (2) nearly any sort of network hiccup will kill a connection and hence the client--something almost assured on the internet for programs running long enough--, and (3) you can't move a client from one server to another. To speak of your VM example, in a more idealized version of Network Transparency, the VM(s) hosting MS Office could be moved from one machine to another and users would at most notice a pause during the checkpoint/transfer/client address update. That's something entirely out of the reach of X. Meanwhile, I think people are more interested in things like (a) starting a program at home on their desktop, (b) continuing to use it on their smartphone, and (c) finally moving to a desktop at their destination. Conceivably, the desktop itself would not be running most the programs but simply be a nexus of links to clients on the phone, on the desktop, and online; ie, the point of the desktop would be more to coordinate what is being run as it has more capacity to checkpoint/maintain/log.

      In short, I don't think X really lived much up to the network transparency ideal. Sure, it can fool you for a while, but the times it fails it fails pretty catastrophically. X was really conceived of in another time which ironically presumed higher reliability. I certainly agree that Wayland stepping further away from network transparency is the wrong path. It just seems clear that pointing at X isn't really that useful considering how many things it gets wrong for today's environment.

      --
      Eurohacker European paranoia, gun rights, and h
    6. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by oursland · · Score: 5, Informative

      Hi Bill,

      You have a good point, but unfortunately the X system is fundamentally flawed at the technical level for the purpose you describe. When X was originally developed, graphics were simple aliased lines and bitmapped fonts. In the modern computer environment, this has presented itself as a grave hindrance to the usability of X.

      Modern applications depend on graphics toolkits, such as GTK and Qt, which render in to X pixbufs and finally those are rendered on the display. The process by which this happens depends upon copying these toolkit-rendered images from buffer to buffer several times, quite needlessly to fit within the X framework. This is moreso true over a network connection. The very nature of modern programs has progressed way beyond what X was intended and optimized for. It is like trying to use a MUD infrastructure designed for textual interaction as the basis of a modern GUI framework, it simply isn't the right tool for the job.

      An anecdote, this weekend I decided I was going to work from home. So I ssh into my work computer (6 miles, 20+ Mbps connection), and fire up an X forwarded my graphical editor session. Things were slow, but not unusable until I did something that caused a series of tooltips to be rendered. The session locked up for 2 minutes before I killed it. I then fired up a terminal-based text editor and got to work. X's network transparency was not beneficial. But there are many network protocols that have been designed for the purpose of remotely operating modern GUI applications such as VNC and RDP. These have been designed from the ground up to provide the functionality we expect on today's systems.

      And before I finish my tirade, I, too, was a die-hard X fan until I decided to see what the Xorg folks had to say. Keith Packard (a lead developer on Xorg, inventor of Cairo and much more that you depend on when you fire up your workstation), has been a hard proponent of Wayland. He's given many talks outlining the design failings of X and how Wayland resolves them. I recommend you google "Keith Packard Wayland" and see what you find.

      Regards,
      oursland

    7. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by RightwingNutjob · · Score: 1

      You are obviously neither a programmer nor a true user of information technology. Also, plenty of Mac users install X11 on their Macs specifically so that they can run stuff on Unix/Linux servers in X11 sessions.

    8. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by smash · · Score: 3, Insightful

      X11 "network transparency" sucks. VNC is better. RDP is better, ICA is better. And network transparency can be provided in X11 compatibility mode with a daemon if required - like it is on OS X and Windows.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    9. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      100% right. For Linux to take off on the desktop we need good looks, high performance and a consistent interface across many apps - not layer upon layer of compatibility cruft. Network transparency is an extremely niche feature mostly useful for IT professionals. It certainly wouldn't be on the shopping list for any typical home or business user.

      Too many layers and abstractions leads to weird bugs and inconsistencies that are hard to fix (or in some cases hard to agree who even "owns" the issue). Just one recent example I noticed in the latest Ubuntu is that if an app is autostarted from a .desktop file, instead of suppressing the classic Gnome tray icon like Unity normally does, it can load before the panel and helpfully appears in the middle of the desktop... genius!

    10. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by Kjella · · Score: 1

      It goes the other way: unless you design for network transparency from day one, you're not going to get it and have it perform well. There's no way to decently get network transparency as a layer on top of the window system. VNC and RDP are horrible kludges and perform like crap.

      Maybe with all the fancy animations and shadows and transparency and 3D effects it just *isn't* going to work well? I can't be arsed to look up the bandwidth or latency of the 16x PCIe connection to my graphics card but I'm pretty sure it's off the charts compared to my fairly speed fiber Internet connection. Seems to me that either HTML if you want a "generic" client or a thick client that only sends and retrieves the data you need beats trying to push pixels around. Yes it's convenient in that all your applications work remotely like they do locally but I can't for the life of me imagine that it's actually efficient.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    11. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by fikx · · Score: 1

      few != not important
      a small percentage of people in the US ever use 911...so get rid of it?
      and for all those who say X11 is crufty and has lots of bad code in it: YES! but, don't mix/confuse the implementation with the feature. It's the feature that is important, the X11 implementation needs some work, but it functions fine now AND NO OTHER REPLACEMENT WINDOW SYSTEM IS OFFERING IT!

      --
      AB HOC POSSUM VIDERE DOMUM TUUM
    12. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by tibit · · Score: 1

      All those things nominally take comparatively little data to represent before they hit the rendering pipeline. Alas, with X11, VNC and RDP as they now stand, you push bitmaps around, and that sucks bandwidth like nobody's business. Wayland doesn't do enough. To be efficient at network transparency, all of the displaying needs to be done from a scene graph, and the application is then modifying the scene graph on whatever display it's being shown on. That's taking what made X11 well performing back in the day to the logical conclusion. Sure as heck you'll need some decent resources on the display, as plenty of heavy lifting is done there, but hey, that's distributed computing for you. Web browsers do the same, web would grind to a halt if servers had to render everything for the surfers...

      Even displaying video on such a decently designed system should be pushing compressed video stream to the display node, as that takes obviously much less bandwidth than the decompressed stream. If you're compositing some controls over the video, they will be in the scene graph and the display will do all the magic needed for it to show as intended. The bandwidth needed for that is equal to the bandwidth for the video stream -- compare that to the staggering pipe X11, VNC and RDP would need for the same functionality.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    13. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      X11 doesn't "push push bitmaps around" unless you direct it to do so.

      It can run like a dog - by displaying a large video stream remotely... but that isn't a fault of X11. That is a user error.

      I have run graphing/graphics functions cross country without problems. What gets passed are drawing commands (somewhere around 60 bytes each). So even the bandwidth isn't that bad. And with ssh performing batching and compression, not an issue.

      Does X11 have some deadwood? yes. The X server itself isn't that good at division of labor, and still has all the 2D toolkit support built in that nobody uses anymore. A toolkit extension is what the server needs, then the client application wouldn't have to do it... But it would have to handle the feedback from the toolkit extension.

    14. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Using VMs is transparent to the X protocol. If it fails, then so would everything else. X uses TCP connections, so moving a VM from machine to machine also moves the TCP session. If it doesn't, then the VM or network configuration is messed up.

      I have run X sessions for several days monitoring systems (and my data), no problem there as long as the network is properly managed.

    15. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by mwvdlee · · Score: 1

      Ah yes, yesterday was CAPS-LOCK DAY.
      X11 will still be around for those who need it.
      X11's networking relies on bandwidth being relatively low compared to latency (lots of connections with small amounts of data) whereas stuff like VNC/RDP relies on the fact that modern internet connections have relatively high latency compared to bandwidth (one connection per refresh with large amounts of data).
      If Wayland integrates the kind of precise screen update notifications required by VNC/RDP-like mechanisms, they just may be able to outperform both X11 and current VNC/RDP. In fact they should be able to do so while remaining compatible with VNC/RDP.

      --
      Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
    16. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Just because you don't use it doesn't mean other people use it. Common setting: big company decide to standardise on Windows-boxes, you have to develop *nix software (this happens more often than you can expect), consequently your nice company installs a *nix box in a rack somewhere in the basement.

      Often, fullscreen VNC or whatever, does not cut it since you need to keep your local windows displayed at the same time (like your email client, that your corporate IT has standardised as Outlook). Consequently, you ssh to the box and start up emacs over X11 and get on with your job.

      If Wayland would replace X11, all app developers would receive yet another target, distributions will now go in the line of: x86-64-darwin, x86-win, x86-64-win, x86-Linux-GTK-Wayland, x86-Linux-GTK-X11, x86-64-Linux-GTK-Wayland, x86-64-Linux-GTK-X11, et.c. et.c. In one blow, you managed to essentially double the number of targets that you need to distribute your programs for, like it wasn't bad already.

    17. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by complete+loony · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Ok, so X11 sucks for local display, and it's not very good for remote display either.

      I believe the plan going forward for local rendering with Wayland, is for the toolkit to render directly. I imagine that each toolkit might end up writing their own network transport for remote access, to give a better experience than just falling back to X11.

      So what I think we need, is for the core team for each major toolkit to sit in a room and try to design an extensible network transport that they can all agree to use. With a core set of features, and perhaps some toolkit specific extensions. Perhaps ending up with a process similar to the way HTML has evolved over time.

      --
      09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
    18. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by Aighearach · · Score: 2

      I can't for the life of me imagine that it's actually efficient to have a bunch of fancy animations and shadows and transparency and 3D effects, or why people who care about network transparency would be impressed by those sorts of doodads.

    19. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      And linux is a niche OS for IT and other technical professionals and power users. Linux isn't a company, it doesn't need to be sold, and taking away the niche features that draw users to linux is about stupid.

      You example, BTW, has nothing to do with X11 and everything to do with Unity.

    20. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by Aighearach · · Score: 4, Informative

      Note that the X.org developers are not the original X11 developers, they are just the developers of a replacement implementation that copied the old *nix code using modern techniques. They did a good job and I appreciate their work, but they aren't the reason X11 was in use when they started X.org and it really says nothing about their understanding of why the X11 features are there, or what the needs of other developers are. They know about their own code, and they features they use in their own clients.

      You mention the bandwidth of your connection, but it is actually the latency that you should be measuring when you're doing remote GUI stuff. Even running GIMP remotely in like... 2000, on a 53.3 modem, it was the latency that would make it suck rather than the bandwidth.

    21. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      VNC is better on a WAN but X11 often performs really well on a LAN, especially when network load is low.

    22. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by aaron552 · · Score: 3, Informative

      X11 doesn't "push push bitmaps around" unless you direct it to do so.

      And it pretty much always does so nowadays given that's how most modern window managers and toolkits interact with X (all rendering is done offscreen and X is simply asked to draw the resulting pixmap)

      --
      I had a sig once. It was lost in the great storm of '09.
    23. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by spitzak · · Score: 3, Informative

      Wayland does exactly that and should be very good at network transparency.

      Yes it sends images of the windows. This is a win because it is much much simpler than any scene description and it will not be obsolete 1 year from now. It does seem like it is more data, but for modern GUI that is in fact the most efficient way to represent the picture being drawn. You are aware that many modern apis draw MORE than one polygon per pixel?

      Advantages over how X11 does images is that it avoids round trips and does not require perfect end result images, allowing compression. It also has the necessary calls to do incremental update (ie the client can say what part of the window has changed since last time, something missing from X11 images).

    24. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As you say, the toolkits render X11 network transparency useless. I mostly blame the toolkits, which traded a killer feature for unnecessary eye candy.

      At the same time, X11's downfall was its declared neutrality to policy. It knows nothing about scrollbars or buttons so it all has to be micromanaged by the client toolkit over the network.

      One solution would be for the X server to support specific ubiquitous GUI concepts to minimize network traffic. Another, more flexible solution, would be to allow the client to upload the toolkit, say, to a Java sandbox (with caching and preloaded toolkits to minimize startup times).

      Session management is still tricky: how do you restore remote applications?

    25. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by Robert+Zenz · · Score: 1

      Nobody ever uses network transparency. Well, okay, perhaps a few thousand people do, but rounded to the nearest 1% of the total number of Windows or Mac users, _zero_ people use it.

      That's a good idea, let's scratch every feature only a few thousand people use! Maybe you should work with Gnome guys, they have that philosophy, too.

    26. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      it was the latency that would make it suck

      X sucks. X never anticipated the demands of contemporary displays. RDP works fine for me over 10+ miles and 12 mbps. X chokes.

    27. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by aaron552 · · Score: 1

      That's true, but most people would agree that TWM is horrendously ugly.

      --
      I had a sig once. It was lost in the great storm of '09.
    28. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by sjames · · Score: 1

      I'm using it right now. And I don't mean some lame RDP windows remote thing, I mean several of the windows on my desktop are from different machines and others are local and it all just works.

    29. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, most GUI work will compress extremely well with very simple and fast lossless compression algorithms.

      And as well as incremental update, the remoting library could do differential updates on those damaged regions. And then those differential updates themselves could be compressed.

      Honestly, the people crying about how wayland somehow prohibits network transparency are starting to sound really willfully uninformed.

    30. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by sjames · · Score: 1

      The correct fix for that is to design a new GUI system with remote capability that operates more efficiently, for example, display side caching and some sort of simple compression.

      Too bad Wayland is determined to be anything BUT that correct fix.

    31. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bullshit. VNC is better if you like only being able to see a 16x16 rectangle around the mouse pointer complete with JPEG artifacts.

    32. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 1

      VNC and RDP are horrible kludges and perform like crap.

      I'll give you VNC, but RDP? I barely notice that I'm using a remote desktop, I get sound transmission if I want, access to my client machine file system with no special effort. The only thing that comes close to RDP is NX, and NX is worlds better than vanilla X11.

      The only things that could improve about it is

      * Clipboard support, and I think that's mostly the fault of Office and it's fancy-schmancy OLE clipboard objects.
      * Multi monitor support. Which is supported in Windows 7. A shame we still use XP.

      Most of my Windows usage is through RDP, and not just server admin, and the only things that annoy me are the (minor) shortcomings of the Linux rdesktop client. RDP might be a horrible kludge inside, but it still works really well.

      I run precisely 2 apps over network X, and I only do that because they have insanely complex configuration, and a GUI that makes it easier to work with. They both chug like Thomas the Tank Engine, even over a LAN.

    33. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hi,
      X11 suffers from a "minor" design problem. It ignores latency. Very chatty to write a few bits.
      If you are close (aka the same university/corp network) to the computer you are using this is not a problem.
      If you are like me (God forbid) on the other side of the planet it becomes as slow as can be.
      vnc via ssh etc gets around this issue very well.
      Thanks Ghiora

    34. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This would be an acceptable solution and could potentially speedup network access substantially (i.e. you can potentially get a functional system that does not send bitmaps but sends a small message about placing a button button at some location). Is anyone working on this?

    35. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by DrXym · · Score: 1

      Wayland doesn't take away network transparency. X11 can run over Wayland. It's likely Wayland will get its own network transport in time too and it'd probably be more efficient too simply by virtue that GTK / QT send prerendered bitmaps around over a remote connection whereas Wayland could potentially send the drawing primitives.

    36. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by DrXym · · Score: 1
      X11 stopped performing well a long time ago. All the primitives X11 provides for drawing fonts and drawing lines & rectangles are arcane and obsolete and aren't even used any more. QT and GTK render their graphics and fonts to a bitmap on the server and send the bitmap over the wire. So X11 imposes a CPU and memory penalty on the server and a network penalty to send all this data. When that's the starting position, it's hard to see how Wayland could do any worse.

      Since Wayland uses an OpenGL ES backend. It's possible to envisage that the client / server make some initial negotiation regarding their respective capabilities and then data is rendered in the server, or in the client or some mix of both. Maybe some clients are "dumb" and everything is prerendered, maybe some are smart and some of the load and bandwidth can be offloaded to them, e.g. textures and shaders might reside in the client.

      X already something like this in GLX which sends OpenGL commands over a transport from the server to the client (i.e. from the X client to the X server in X's back to front parlance). It seems perfectly reasonable to consider that Wayland could do something similar.

    37. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lots of enterprises actually do use the X's network transparency - either via LTSP or simply launching a remote application via SSH/X. Most of the users are simply oblivious to it, since it is just like any other application with a Windows' Desktop shortcut to them.

      And the biggest selling point of such solutions is the security: auth via ssh on remote server + users' desktops have only a screen image of the information but nothing is stored locally. Second selling point is simplicity of the application deployment: application is installed once on the server and that's about it; users need only a new shortcut on the Windows' Desktop. Another important selling point: one can use thin, easily replaceable client, shedding lots of IT overhead.

      P.S. Web applications are simply incapable of handling graphics- and CPU-intensive tasks (and require fat clients).

    38. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Note that the X.org developers are not the original X11 developers, they are just the developers of a replacement implementation that copied the old *nix code using modern techniques.

      Um, Keith Packard... That's all...

    39. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nobody ever uses network transparency. Well, okay, perhaps a few thousand people do, but rounded to the nearest 1% of the total number of Windows or Mac users, _zero_ people use it. Network transparency should be a layer on top of the window system for those who need it, not something that's present and causing breakage by default.

      I use it regularly. Quite handy. Personally, while VNC is useful, running an entire desktop for one application is just plain dumb IMHO. Now that I've come across xpra ("like screen for X11", http://xpra.org/ ), I'm quite content with X.

    40. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by delt0r · · Score: 1

      When working for a major teleco. Every single machine on our floor was using windows to just run a X11 client. They where used simple netclients or whatever. Everything was run on big iron. Even the email etc.

      Just because you don't use it in your bubble is not the same as everyone else doesn't.

      --
      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
    41. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And I disagree. So we are both spouting opinion and hence have proven nothing.

    42. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by fikx · · Score: 1

      Ah yes, yesterday was CAPS-LOCK DAY.

      using caps since no one seems to get it no matter how it's worded...sign of frustration at the reading incomprehension of lots of posters

      X11 will still be around for those who need it.

      Not if Wayland replaces Xorg, which seems to be the goal of the project. IF someone, anyone, can tell me I will be able to run a "Wayland app" from one machine to another screen, then fine. Haven't heard that yet. I've been told that you can do this, but the answer always involves thigns that trick the app in displaying to something that can be copied over the network like I deal with in Windows. This is not the funtionality I have now and which I don't want to give up.

      X11's networking relies on bandwidth being relatively low compared to latency (lots of connections with small amounts of data) whereas stuff like VNC/RDP relies on the fact that modern internet connections have relatively high latency compared to bandwidth (one connection per refresh with large amounts of data). If Wayland integrates the kind of precise screen update notifications required by VNC/RDP-like mechanisms, they just may be able to outperform both X11 and current VNC/RDP. In fact they should be able to do so while remaining compatible with VNC/RDP.

      If VNC/RDP is you answer to what X11 does, you don't know what X11 does. X11 network function is much better and more useful than those kinds of remote access. I use both everyday and I can tell you X11 remote display is easier, better designed and will only be more useful (given proliferation of screens to display on like phones, tablets, TV's) as time goes on. Do I wish X11 was more effieicient? yes. Does Wayland offer the function I need? No. So, I'll stick to X11 as long as Wayland doesn't cause X11 to go away, and I hope Wayland goes away just because of the threat it poses in making X11 go away.

      --
      AB HOC POSSUM VIDERE DOMUM TUUM
    43. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by fikx · · Score: 1

      People claiming vnc/RDP functionality is the same as X11 remote display/network transparency are extremely uninformed.

      --
      AB HOC POSSUM VIDERE DOMUM TUUM
    44. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by fikx · · Score: 0

      No it doesn't. no it's not. No it's not, no it's not. And, no it can't. (all you are solving is half of what X11 can do: running a remote app on a local screen. The other half is missing.)

      --
      AB HOC POSSUM VIDERE DOMUM TUUM
    45. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by LordLimecat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      VNC and RDP are horrible kludges and perform like crap.

      I get the feeling youve never used RDP.

      And if X11 is so great for network transparency, why does Citrix base all of its terminal stuff on ICA (which RDP is based off IIRC) rather than just using X11's native abilities?

    46. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by kruhft · · Score: 1

      So what I think we need, is for the core team for each major toolkit to sit in a room and try to design an extensible network transport that they can all agree to use. With a core set of features, and perhaps some toolkit specific extensions. Perhaps ending up with a process similar to the way HTML has evolved over time.

      http://xkcd.com/927/

    47. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by Alef · · Score: 1

      They did a good job and I appreciate their work, but they aren't the reason X11 was in use when they started X.org and it really says nothing about their understanding of why the X11 features are there, or what the needs of other developers are.

      I'd take the word of anyone who has actually gone through implementing a complete X server over that of some random guy on slashdot, though.

    48. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by morgauxo · · Score: 1

      How do you run an application which is targeted towards Wayland, not X remotely?

    49. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by Score+Whore · · Score: 1

      X11 stopped performing well a long time ago. All the primitives X11 provides for drawing fonts and drawing lines & rectangles are arcane and obsolete and aren't even used any more. QT and GTK render their graphics and fonts to a bitmap on the server and send the bitmap over the wire. So X11 imposes a CPU and memory penalty on the server and a network penalty to send all this data. When that's the starting position, it's hard to see how Wayland could do any worse.

      Not to get pedantic, but you need to learn which is the server and which is the client when it comes to X11. If something is rendering to a pixmap on the server, then it doesn't need to traverse the network to move it to the display. It's already there.

    50. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by TheCycoONE · · Score: 1

      Until you consider that virtually all applications these days use pixmaps so sending the X11 draw commands over the network has no advantage.

    51. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by DrXym · · Score: 1

      I think I addressed that in the para below - " X already something like this in GLX which sends OpenGL commands over a transport from the server to the client (i.e. from the X client to the X server in X's back to front parlance)." I'm aware of X11's back assward definition of client and server but usually people would expect the server to be the thing where the process is located and sending the data, and the client to be display it.

    52. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by DrXym · · Score: 1

      I expect most Linux dists will provide backends X11 and Wayland for QT / GTK and the code will intelligently pick the right one according to the context at runtime. Eg if DISPLAY isn't set or pointing locally it tests for and uses Wayland otherwise X11. Further out someone will produce a working network transport for Wayland and all that be slotted in somehow.

    53. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      RDP in Win7 actually isn't half bad. Although VNC in MacOS is still a completely unusable disaster.

      The sad and funny part is that this Wayland nonsense comes at a time when Windows seems to finally have caught up and surpassed Unix in terms of graphical terminal tech. Now the Wayland twits want to flush all of that and put us 20 years behind Windows.

      Remote desktop features are taken for granted in corporations. While certain Unix malcontents have been repeating the same tired old rhetoric about X, the rest of the industry caught up with us.

      Replacing X without taking this into consideration is just retarded. Leaving it to be "bolted on" at some point in the future is similarly stupid.

      If you want the Wayland experience just buy a Mac and stop trying to sabotage Linux.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    54. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      RDP can do the job.

      VNC cannot.

      I suspect that Microsoft treats the remote desktop use case with far more respect than the Wayland developers. That's pretty sad really.

      I would not lump VNC and RDP together. VNC seems like something thrown in at the last moment just to say that the task was done. This seems to be the approach that Wayland wants to take.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    55. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Read your comment. Completely true. Completely accurate. Couldn't help but notice your UID. I miss the days when people like you and me, people who actually know what the hell they are talking about, were predominately the ones participating here on slashdot.

    56. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by oursland · · Score: 1

      Latency isn't the only problem, bandwidth is. Modern graphical toolkits, such as GTK and Qt, render to X pixbufs and transmit those across the wire. That's a lot of data!

    57. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by oursland · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Keith Packard has been working on X terminals since 1983 and worked on the original X reference implementation . Since Keith has been there since basically the beginning of the project, you're completely off base with your accusations of a lack of understanding. I don't care who wrote line 1 of XFree86; I trust this man more about the operation of X and its shortcomings.

      Bandwidth is very much a concern as well. All the toolkits render locally to X pixbufs and transmit them across the line. In particularly graphics heavy systems, such as GIMP, these pixbufs won't compress as well, so line compression won't help as much to cut down on bandwidth concerns.

    58. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by oursland · · Score: 1

      You say things like True Type Fonts and anti-aliased lines are eye candy? I sit a console constantly day in and day out, these things make the experience far better than it would be with simple X primitives.

      New GUI concepts are constantly being developed. The system you want to create would be similar to taking Motif and making that the network protocol. As soon as some new widget is created and gains popularity, you're either stuck in the same situation you are now, or constantly revising the protocol to account for every new class of widgets.
      To address your other concerns: Have you ever used VNC or RDP on a headless remote? It works just fine.

    59. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by oursland · · Score: 1

      Those are great solutions, but they're already been implemented. X already has server-side (where the display is) pixbuf caches, and the network may turn on compression.

    60. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      RDP performs pretty well. It's certainly usable on my 100ms connection to work.

    61. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by jwdb · · Score: 1

      Can any of those three offer network transparency for individual programs, rather than a whole desktop? If not, then X11 still wins for how I use it.

    62. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by fikx · · Score: 1

      How does the implementation reflect on my comment? Not disagreeing, just honestly wondering how your comment relates to mine...

      --
      AB HOC POSSUM VIDERE DOMUM TUUM
    63. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I'm sure Keith Packard and Jim Gettys will be glad to hear they had nothing to do with X11.

      Hey some idiot on slashdot said something NOT AT ALL FUCKING INFORMATIVE and I modded him up! nice work guys.

    64. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Advantages over how X11 does images is that it avoids round trips and does not require perfect end result images, allowing compression. It also has the necessary calls to do incremental update (ie the client can say what part of the window has changed since last time, something missing from X11 images).

      Sounds great. Now if Wayland truly does maintain backwards compatibility with most of the different X11 widget toolkits and dependent applications and hardware out there (e.g. xterm family, emacs, ssh -Y, nedit, editres, showkey, window managers) and it's relatively bug free then I'd be sold.

      Wayland developers would get a lot less grief if they took on board the fact there is a huge investment in existing tools in all sorts of odd corners (e.g. embedded, legacy software, legacy hardware) and were much more explicit and careful about their transition plan. Saying most people use GTK/Qt is only true for new desktop work and does not apply in general. In addition remote X windowing is widely used in development and VNC and equivalent are not a usable replacement. If Waylanders could make available true window and screen level remote display/keyboard/mouse that would also help a lot in getting Wayland buy in.

    65. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by mellon · · Score: 1

      Yes, you are one of the few thousand people who uses network transparency. That doesn't actually contradict my point. If you want to contradict my point, show me the 100,000 people who are using network transparency.

      The fact is that what we used to get from X we mostly get from ssh and http now. X is pounding a nail with the heavy end of a screwdriver.

    66. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by fikx · · Score: 1

      Basic question on RDP: can it support sending only one window instead of a desktop? I seem to remember hearing it could, but haven't ran across how to do it without involving Citrix or some other software...

      --
      AB HOC POSSUM VIDERE DOMUM TUUM
    67. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wayland make HUGE gains in CPU level latency with a mild network trade-off. Don't like it? Then fork X11 and maintain/devel your own stuff.

      The beauty of opensource is no one can tell you what to do, the bane of opensource is you can't tell anyone what to do.

      When the bulk of the X11 devel team says they don't like X11 and they want to make Wayland, you need to suck it up or start writing your own code.

    68. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      If your claim is that x.org is just 2 guys, then as 1 guy I've got at least a strong minority opinion.

      It is the same as with any other layer, the client programmers like myself are not going to be impressed by the builder of any layer telling me what my needs are. How do they know what features are important to me? I can tell you right now, they didn't ask me. So without having asked, the only way they can have a clue is if they assume that I'm assuming all of the features. Right?

      What they very well might know is what features they themselves want. Which is totally valid. And while that is a great reason for them to write something new, it is not any reason to expect it to replace what we already have. Simple as that. If you want to replace what is already there, you need it to cover the same problem space. Otherwise you're intentionally screwing up stuff that already works.

    69. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by smash · · Score: 1

      Both RDP and ICA have been able to do this for at least 12 years now.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    70. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by smash · · Score: 1

      VNC is better on a WAN but X11 often performs really well on a LAN, especially when network load is low.

      Which is another way of saying "X11 bandwidth consumption is a joke". As someone who is regularly doing remote server admin via RDP over 256kbit or smaller links, attempting to use X11 in that sort of environment would be impossible. Both RDP and ICA can do this, and they both work just fine over fat LAN pipes as well.

      With less flickering and screen update glitches than X11 to boot.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    71. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How does that reflect on my comment? Not disagreeing, just honestly wondering how your comments relates to mine...

    72. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Give it up dude, you comments was just proven to be utterly misinformed. You sound like a fucking nincompoop by trying to deny that.

      "Note that the X.org developers are not the original X11 developers, [...] they aren't the reason X11 was in use when they started X.org and it really says nothing about their understanding of why the X11 features are there, or what the needs of other developers are."

      WRONG. MORON.

    73. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by tibit · · Score: 1

      Drawing commands ha ha ha. X's "drawing commands" are so useless these days that the various toolkits that abstract X away usually dispense with such "drawing commands" and pretend they are not there. Look at your browser: all it does is render html to a bitmap, whether it's gecko- or webkit-based. Any modern Qt or GTK application does the same thing, because falling back to X's "drawing commands" kills performance vs. rendering to bitmaps.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    74. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ISTM that the problem isn't the supposedly legacy crufty APIs for doing line drawing and the like, but rather that there needs to be higher-level APIs which form part of the X protocol (probably in X12). That would allow the WM to offload far more processing into X (cairo, for example, is an obvious feature which should be handled on the server, not the client), and thus send far fewer large graphics.

    75. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      There is an obvious tradeoff between bandwidth and CPU. It isn't the X11 protocol that is expensive, it is the uncompressed data. If you want to compress it, you can, and well, as VNC shows, but you pay in latency. On a WAN the compression more than pays for itself and likely decreases latency. On a LAN, that is usually not the case and unless the network load is high, compression creates a bottleneck needlessly.

      As far as what is possible or not, I've used X11 over 53.3 and yes it is painful. It is also possible. One of the nice things about *nix, apps rarely fail just because they're running too slowly. Give it an hour or two, the page will load! lol

      Also, if you're having flickering problems it is probably the app or toolkit, not X11. Gtk doesn't cause flicker at all IME, and if you write the app well it will only expose what is needed.

    76. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by smash · · Score: 1

      Difference is, I've been doing this shit for 15 years now and have a UID low enough to indicate as such, whilst you're some random anonymous guy on the internet.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    77. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by TheCycoONE · · Score: 1

      The main advantage, as far as I'm aware, of to having a network transparent display server over a client like RDP is that you can send raw drawing commands over the wire instead of bitmaps, but that advantage is lost when the display server is drawing images.

      The secondary advantage that is sometimes touted is that the application itself can be drawn on the remote server rather than the entire desktop, but there are workarounds for this that don't involve network transparency at the display server level. (Recent versions of the RDP protocol support this, though Windows doesn't ship with a client that uses it.)

      That said I believe my actual comment was simply suggesting that RDP/VNC are not as different from network transparency in the display server as it might otherwise be when the display server is copying images (because that's what VNC does as well, just at another layer.)

    78. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by tibit · · Score: 1

      It's not inefficient given that the GPUs don't even blink when faced with rendering it. What's inefficient is that there's no common way of representing such "effects" to the underlying display system -- a.k.a. scenegraph.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    79. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by tibit · · Score: 1

      I use RDP, and it does perform like crap, if you compare it to a scenegraph-shipping system. I've tinkered with 3D scenegraph shipping over ISDN B-channel (64kbps) and it worked pretty damn good in an interactive application -- way better than any similarly good looking modern application would perform over any common technology (RDP, X11, VNC, whatever).

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    80. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by tibit · · Score: 1

      Now try it with a modern application. You know, anything that uses WPF, for example, and uses it for more than mere semi-static controls.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    81. Re:Application and Screen on Different Machines by tzot · · Score: 1

      I have the impression that x86-Linux-GTK-Wayland and x86-Linux-GTK-X11 would actually be x86-Linux-GTK, just like today. You code using the toolkit; the toolkit decides (automagically and/or helped by run-time choices) which backend (X11 or Wayland). Likewise for Qt.

      --
      I speak England very best
  12. ... and I thought E is going to replace X11 by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 1

    M.any years ago they were talking about Enlightenment wanting to replace X11

    While E has gone to E17(still beta), it's not replacing X11 yet.

    I dunno much about the project that's the topic of TFA, so I won't know how successful it would be in replacing X11

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    1. Re:... and I thought E is going to replace X11 by Virtex · · Score: 1

      E17 should be out in a few days. But even so, E17 runs on top of X11 rather than running as a replacement. Maybe if Wayland takes off, Enlightenment can be ported to run there instead of X11, but we'll have to wait to see where things go from here.

      --
      For every post, there is an equal and opposite re-post.
    2. Re:... and I thought E is going to replace X11 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Far out, i remember E16 being released and then forgot all about it....
      I thought they'd be up to E100 by now! Are they trying a Mac OS X style version numbering?

    3. Re:... and I thought E is going to replace X11 by styrotech · · Score: 1

      M.any years ago they were talking about Enlightenment wanting to replace X11

      You're not thinking of the Berlin Consortium or something are you? I think they changed their name to something catchier later, but it escapes me (<sarcasm>well that obviously worked</sarcasm>).

      Enlightenment was always intended to be something on top of X11 as far as I can remember (could be wrong of course).

    4. Re:... and I thought E is going to replace X11 by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 1

      Maybe if Wayland takes off, Enlightenment can be ported to run there instead of X11

      E17 has already been ported to Wayland

      http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTAxNjg

      Back in 2011 Evas already runs on Wayland

      https://plus.google.com/118426816251488376359/posts/AmCFdvRDj9F

      --
      Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    5. Re:... and I thought E is going to replace X11 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you talking about Fresco? It seems it completely disappeared.

    6. Re:... and I thought E is going to replace X11 by styrotech · · Score: 1

      Are you talking about Fresco? It seems it completely disappeared.

      That's it. Yep - dead as a dodo.

    7. Re:... and I thought E is going to replace X11 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Many years ago they were talking about Enlightenment wanting to replace X11

      Methinks either you don't understand the difference between a window manager and a graphics subsystem, or you and I differ on the meaning of "replace".

      E17 has never intended to replace X11. E17 has always had the possibility to run without X11, using fbdev or even some other graphics presentation layer. But that has nothing to do with replacement, and everything with flexibility, portability and good design.

    8. Re:... and I thought E is going to replace X11 by bolthole · · Score: 1

      It seems like we have a bunch of "physicists" putting their oar in about windowing systems.
      Because writing a new windowing system is easy, right?

      http://xkcd.com/793/

    9. Re:... and I thought E is going to replace X11 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is the thing I don't understand: E17 "should be out in a few days"? People have been running E17 for *years*. What about this release is so different than anything people have been already running for the past near decade?

    10. Re:... and I thought E is going to replace X11 by tqk · · Score: 1

      While E has gone to E17(still beta), it's not replacing X11 yet.

      I liked E when I last looked at it, but I didn't know it was intended as a potential replacement for X. How portable is E? Can it drive an RS6000, an ancient SunOS box, Macs, DECTerms, ...?

      Accessing, ...

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
  13. Solution searching for a problem? by Lawrence_Bird · · Score: 2, Insightful

    So.. X11 needs to be replaced with something shiny because of...? Seems the response most often stated is the code base is a mess. Why not just clean that up instead? And has others have noted here, remote usage is still important and no, VNC is not the same thing.

    1. Re:Solution searching for a problem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I've read the Wayland code. It's a bunch of half-assed IPC which is trying to bootstrap some sort of system fast enough that they can start adding fancy features before they get bored with it all again. Someone basically wrote a prototype, which became the de facto message protocol for the compositor. You can tell that's exactly how it went down, because I've been writing async network IPC like that for 15 years, and it's exactly what you'd see from someone who couldn't give a flip about that aspect of the code.

      Wayland is an excuse for people who got bored with X11. I say that because the parts which are directly analogous to X11 are poorly thought out. The whole goal, apparently, is to ignore all those boring parts of a display manager so they can get to the cooler, hipper parts as soon as possible. That doesn't bode well for long-term viability. Much like GNOME, they're chasing a fad---bringing the swipe animation level performance to the desktop---instead of thinking ahead. Which is a shame, because addressing the network messaging proboems is easy, especially when you're starting from scratch. We know _exactly_ what's wrong with X11, yet when the opportunity arises to replace it people go off into the weeds with their pet ideas, redefining the problem space so they have less grunt work to do.

    2. Re:Solution searching for a problem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The perception is that X is bloated. This is ofcourse not true. So my suggestion is to just change the name. The advantage compared to Wayland that we would not break a decade of compatibility for no good reason.

    3. Re:Solution searching for a problem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hilariously X11 networking with modern toolkits for reasons already explained in quite a few posts above is terribly like VNC gone bad - no compression (3*horizontal_resolution*vertical_resolution*refresh_rate bits per second), no security (this is why we all use SSH tunneling not pure X11) at every level (this is why -X and even more so -Y are not enabled by default with SSH) and the stupid round trips though the uncompressed RGB24 at even just the abysmally low HDTV resolutions already clogged your 1 Gb/s Ethernet so this is merely the icing.

    4. Re:Solution searching for a problem? by DrXym · · Score: 1

      No, the perception is that X11 is arcane and it is. All the font and drawing primitives are junk, the rendering engine is stuck in a 2D world of rectangles and damage. Libraries like Cairo, Pango, FreeType, plus a raft of extensions et al were produced to workaround all these limitations. So much of X11 is obsolete and worked around, and what remains adds extra latency and complexity that it is completely valid to consider dumping it entirely.

    5. Re:Solution searching for a problem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      quite true. Wayland is a solution for a problem that doesn't exist. So, writing a x server is complicated and full of deprecated functionality? So, don't waste your time writing one.

    6. Re:Solution searching for a problem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Refactoring code is sometimes much more trouble than it's worth.

  14. Sometime around 2000-2002 Windows and OSX added by Burz · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...network abstraction layers to their GUIs, specifically to enable people to mirror and share their desktops efficiently.

    The mundane, non-vertically integrated *nix world still doesn't have this ability after all these years. X11 can't mirror/share, its also laggy over broadband connections, VNC is primitive and slow, etc. The NoMachine people have claimed they can support screen sharing in NX, but I haven't seen a working example yet (and those features are in the proprietary version anyway); otherwise they did a good job of making X11 usably network transparent for use cases not contained within a single LAN (i.e. most situations).

    Personally, I'm tired of seeing all the hand-waving about X11's network transparency. It doesn't help in the vast majority of instances where people want to share an app or screen during a teleconference. X11 is not advanced in this respect -- just sadly out of touch. It mainly addresses the rather outdated use case where you have a handful of engineer types who open a CLI and type an ssh command, possibly fiddle with the display variable, then type in the desired app as a command so they can run one expensive, customized app on a server in a specially cooled room 3 floors down.

    1. Re:Sometime around 2000-2002 Windows and OSX added by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Or me, sitting with a netbook on my couch, ssh'ed into a desktop machine that runs all my apps.

      Or the guy in my office who uses it to mix and match half a dozen applications from various machines around the lab.

      It's a featured used every day by many people, and if Wayland doesn't provide it, then Wayland is not ready for prime time. It is welcome to provide other things, that's fine, but it must provide this one to be taken seriously by the Linux/Unix crowd, because we're accustomed to having this ability.

    2. Re:Sometime around 2000-2002 Windows and OSX added by Electricity+Likes+Me · · Score: 2

      Also because *nix in a lot of cases feels behind Windows in this. The Windows RDP implementation does a lot of things very right - it's quick enough to use over the web, it lets you take over the local console session (and lock out the local console but also restore it - seriously, try getting this to work on any Linux distro) and it can also support multiple remote users.

      Linux distros can "kind of" do this, but no one's really made it work right yet, and as I understand it an "X screen" type function simply doesn't work right yet (I can't teleport an app on my desktop to a remote server, nor bring it back, and if I open a remote X desktop I can't easily get it to run on the local screen). x2go comes closest, but it's still not entirely there yet.

    3. Re:Sometime around 2000-2002 Windows and OSX added by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Great, X11's network transparency sucks. The solution to this problem is to reimplement it better, not to replace X entirely and remove the feature.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    4. Re:Sometime around 2000-2002 Windows and OSX added by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      MacOS added network friendly abstraction layers?

      Then why is the VNC server that ships with MacOS so full of suck?

      I agree that Microsoft has done some interesting things. It might be wise to figure out what they have done. Trying to emulate Apple is not productive.

      I can do useful things with X across the network. The same is true of RDP.

      The approach that Wayland wants to take with VNC is already a disaster. You can see for yourself just by using a Mac.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
  15. vnc is faster by Chirs · · Score: 1

    Remote X is a pig once ping times increase due to the number of round trips required. VNC is far superior in that situation especially when it can be notified of changes efficiently.

    1. Re:vnc is faster by Electricity+Likes+Me · · Score: 2

      Which is why we have nxproxy which optimizes those things away.

      If we wanted to do something new to X11, the best thing would be to get the NX modifications rolled in as a supported capability so Remote X would just work with them.

    2. Re:vnc is faster by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Remote X is a pig once ping times increase due to the number of round trips required. VNC is far superior in that situation especially when it can be notified of changes efficiently.

      On a LAN with light load, vanilla X will often give much better performance. The responsiveness is very different between X and VNC.

      Obviously the longer and slower the link, eventually VNC compression wins.

    3. Re:vnc is faster by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're perfectly free to do that. If what you come up with is indeed better than the alternatives, then it's got a good chance of winning out.

    4. Re:vnc is faster by ls671 · · Score: 2

      Factor in the risk to get disconnected from the remote running application depending on the type of link that you have. With VNC, one can just reconnect to the VNC server.

      A little details on X just for the ones who might still wonder:
      Remote X:
      Your Desktop runs the X server and you run client applications or even a window manager on remote machines. When the link goes down, remote applications have no longer a DISPLAY and usually crash.

      VNC:
      Your Desktop runs a VNC client to connect to a remote machine running X in a virtual buffer. The client applications display in a virtual X server on the remote machine. If the link goes down, just reconnect to VNC server and your applications are still running in that remote X virtual server.

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    5. Re:vnc is faster by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please tell me when VNC works root-less (i.e. only forwarding individual windows) and fully integrate the with the local copy paste buffers.

    6. Re:vnc is faster by morgauxo · · Score: 1

      VNC has it's uses but it isn't really the same thing at all.

      VNC has to be turned on per-user (usually by a shell terminal). Then it's a single window of a predetermined size containing all your remote applications. I can't drag remote application X over here and Y over there at the local terminal unless I am using 2 VNC sessions or my VNC window fills the whole screen (either way is awkward). Maximizing a window maximizes it within the VNC window, not within my local screen. Cut and paste may be available but it requires having another application running at the VNC server, usually which I end up closing by mistake at some point.

      When I am using remote X for individual windows I like it better than VNC because I can move everything around, maximize, minimize, cut and paste back and forth just as though it were local.

      When I am only using the local machine as a terminal (I want everything I see to be the remote machine) remote X is nice because I can set up the local terminal to automatically connect to the remote machine and give me a login prompt. I can automate this and don't need to ssh in and start something (which seems really hokey to me for any kind of permanent setup). Then I can log in as any user of the remote machine, and see what for all intents and purposes looks like a local desktop.

    7. Re:vnc is faster by morgauxo · · Score: 1

      Sometimes that's a feature, sometimes not. I use remote X on a LAN and don't worry much about a dropped connection. OTOH i love the fact that all I have to do is hit the power button on my terminal and it starts shutting itself down. Once it is down my remote computer is no longer wasting resources on the applications I had running remotely. If I have work I don't want to lose I save it or just don't turn it off! This is especially good with browsers like Firefox as it is annoying to sit down at my computer, click the browser and it doesn't start because I forgot to turn it off in some other session.

    8. Re:vnc is faster by ls671 · · Score: 1

      OTOH i love the fact that all I have to do is hit the power button on my terminal and it starts shutting itself down. Once it is down my remote computer is no longer wasting resources on the applications I had running remotely.

      Back in the old days, we had a golden principle saying that one should always exit gracefully. You should close all applications one by one if you are concerned about not wasting resources on the remote machine. I have seen all kinds of behavior from applications when the X link goes down. In some cases, zombie processes taking 100% of CPU on the remote machine.

      Applications running in a XVNC server and even the VNC server itself are mostly swapped out and/or using shared memory with very little resident dedicated memory when idle causing negligible load on the remote machines when nobody is connected. You can run without performance impacts many VNC servers on a remote machine as long as all of them are not used by connected users at the same time.

      By the way I also use remote X on LANs:
        http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3202975&cid=41738623

      For rootless persistent applications, as another poster has mentioned, you may want to look at the X version of screen:
      http://code.google.com/p/partiwm/wiki/xpra

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
  16. There are very few X11 developers there... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Those that are work on the X11 client...

    The failure to understand history dooms them to repeat history, and reimplement things yet again... poorly.

  17. Why are graphics so poor on Linux? by Tenebrousedge · · Score: 1

    In a word, money.

    Desktop Linux generates very little on its own. Red Hat manages to rake in about a billion dollars in revenue, but Canonical only manages $30 million (wikipedia). Android doesn't have to make money per se as it has other avenues of monetization (e.g. advertising). It also lives or dies by its UI.

    You can also contrast this to the embedded Linux, server, and HPC markets, for which I don't have numbers, but Linux has a dominant position.

    Linux is more often optimized for workflow than graphics. The former is generally excellent and highly configurable. While Linux advocates like to tout the number of individual contributors to the kernel, a large number of these are corporate contributors wishing for anonymity. There's not a lot of ROI in shiny buttons. Also, low-end graphics run on more platforms.

    That said, I like the way my desktop looks (earth image with weather and sunlight, updates every 1/2 hour). Dunno what you object to with yours, but it can probably be remedied if you have some free time.

    --
    Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
    1. Re:Why are graphics so poor on Linux? by Andy+Prough · · Score: 1

      Interesting - I was not aware that the revenues for Canonical were so small. Even SUSE with its quarter-billion dollars in annual revenues is an enormous project by comparison, and Red Hat is clearly the 800-pound gorilla among Linux distros. Canonical has been so effective with their PR efforts, I would have thought that Ubuntu was a much more financially viable project.

  18. Network transparency is VERY important by coder111 · · Score: 2

    To anyone who complains about not using network transparency of X server, I do use all the time and I do need it. And so do thousands of system administrators and power users.

    I hope Wayland has some kind of network transparency support. It doesn't have to be X protocol, it could be something new and improved, but there must be a network transparency support.

    --Coder

    1. Re:Network transparency is VERY important by kiddygrinder · · Score: 1

      why not just use X11? if network transparency is so important i'm sure some kind programmers will maintain it.

      --
      This is a joke. I am joking. Joke joke joke.
    2. Re:Network transparency is VERY important by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wayland's official position is that remote desktop is not important and its completely out of scope for them to care. So the argument sounds like this.

      Wayland: I'm superior and am ready to replace you.

      X: Wait, a massive number of X users require remote displays.

      Wayland: No they don't. *Sticks fingers in ears*

      X: Uh ya. Most X users use remote displays at some point in time. I guess you are not even close to replacing X.

      Wayland: Okay, well some small, minority number of users may use remote desktops, but its simply not important. So yes, by ignoring two users, we are ready.

      X: Uh, the entire word is going remote. Remote is only going to be come more important. You're ignoring a massive user base via hand waving.

      Wayland: No its not. Besides, users will be happy with a dramatically inferior solution, to which I'm completely ignoring, which dramatically increases development and testing metric for yet another framework, all so a large portion of their user base can be ignored by me.

      X: Uh...yes and no. VNC solutions are dramatically inferior. I'll give you that.

      Wayland: Yes! Victory! The world is mine.

      X: Idiots.

  19. But what's the point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    It seems to me that there's nothing to gain by this. You say that nobody renders like this any more, but I believe you're talking about network transparency. Most detractors of X11 do. But this doesn't seem to be any problem at all.

    Look at WoW. Runs faster on Linux than on Windows.

    The renderer can't be bad, can it. The mapping of API to game has to be pretty good to manage that, especially since it was written for a different renderer (if, indeed, your proposition about "nobody does it this way" is right) and a different OS.

    It seems that still people are looking at X11, seeing network transparency and going "Oh, it HAS to be going slow if it can render over the network!".

    If Weyland implements X11 then you're not going to get rid of any of the code that they complain is never going to get used, so no gain there. And if the code is never going to get used, it doesn't slow anything down.

  20. Does X11 suck for local display? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Really. Don't accept received wisdom on this, but have a look.

    It doesn't seem to suck for local display. WoW runs faster on Linux than Windows, so the display can't be crippling it, can it. Compiz did more than Vista on desktop animations earlier and with less hardware, so the display can't be crippling it, can it.

    People assert X11 sucks for local. But I believe they just think that the display is a zero-sum game, so if it works well over the network, it must work poorly locally.

    I do not believe this to be the case.

    1. Re:Does X11 suck for local display? by complete+loony · · Score: 1

      Is that really X11, the network abstraction layer, though? Or is that another extension written to bypass X and go straight to opengl.

      --
      09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
  21. All losing the point via narrow focus by dbIII · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There seem to be little efficiency to be gained by using remote X over VNC in this case

    VNC is one to one, but with X you can have a pile of windows open from a pile of hosts. It may not be important to many here but it's the entire reason why my workplace has linux on the desktop machines and why the MS windows machines all have X as well.
    The funny thing is despite all the "cloud" hype people are forgetting one of the major advantages of being able to use the resources of more than one computer via networking. VNC is the dumb terminal approach, which is fine for many tasks, but it has limitations.

  22. "Linux" by fa2k · · Score: 1

    The article keeps saying Linux.. I'm a bit worried about compatibility with other systems such as BSD. And even Windows, will there be Wayland servers for Windows just like there's a couple of X servers now? Maybe we'll still use X for the networked stuff, and Linux will be just like Windows and Mac, with a compatibility layer to display X11 applications.

    1. Re:"Linux" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, since much of what makes Wayland simpler than X11 is relying on Linux-kernel-specific APIs, there will likely never be Wayland proper for any other kernel. (For example, gedit would be compiled with gtk-x11 on BSD, gtk-wayland on Linux, and gtk-win32 on Windows.)

    2. Re:"Linux" by fa2k · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the info, that makes sense. I'll miss having every application automatically networked, in a way that's much better than anything on windows or mac. Sometimes it's nice to start an instance of dolphin or an image viewer over X11, when I have SSH, and when it would require more work to set up a shared filesystem. Sometimes it's absolutely mission critical to be able to access things over X11, like data analysis tools that only work on certain versions of Linux. I suppose that those things will continue to be compiled for X11 for the foreseeable future.

  23. Security by fa2k · · Score: 1

    X11 is a bottleneck in Unix security. It is not safe to run applications from multiple users on the same desktop if you require isolation between them. The applications can listen in on the keystrokes and (I think) read the content of the other applications' windows. Desktop OSes are in some sense trying to catch up to mobile OSes when it comes to application-level sandboxing, so this isolation an important feature.

    It would be extremely exciting if Wayland had a sane isolation model, either based on SELinux or on standard user accounts. I wouldn't have to look at things like Qubes OS (which admittedly is much more secure than my Fedora will ever be). I did RTFA and browsed some of the links, and there is no mention of it, so I'm not holding my breath.

  24. Not 1990 anymore so don't roll back by dbIII · · Score: 1
    If the graphical equivalent of Siri (ie. something better done on a big honking server than a mobile phone) comes along network transparency may be the key to getting it going. There is only so much that can be done inside a web browser.

    What's wrong with retaining X11 for servers only, and switching to something more appropriate for other Linux installations?

    That's effectively what's happening with Android, but I think it's a bit of a backward step since it throws away most of the applications that are the reason I use linux in the first place, at least for the moment. Also Win2k/XP and OS X showed that people really want to run a server OS on their computers anyway instead of a cut down piece of crap like Win95/ME.

    1. Re:Not 1990 anymore so don't roll back by Iskender · · Score: 1

      I'm not the GP, but here are a few points. If you wrote your post while not caring about normal users at all then we are talking past each other, but that's fine too.

      What you call a step backward with Android actually allows it to work, if the above posters are to be trusted. I'm guessing the video tearing and cut/paste problems of my Ubuntu desktop are gone too.

      Normal users adopted 2000/XP/OS X because they actually worked. It wasn't about servers: hell, if you're lucky enough to get a static IP these days the next step is probably someone rooting you. No, the real reason these were succesful is that they provided working GUIs and features (video etc) without crashing. Something like this:

      Win 98: Crashes, has features.
      XP/2K: Doesn't crash, has features, has malware.
      Linux: Doesn't crash, has no malware, has no features.

      All this from a normal user's perspective, of course.

      Linux doesn't have to do anything for programmers and sysadmins really, except continue being itself. For normal users on the other hand it has its priorities all wrong. All that's really needed is a system that doesn't crash, can do video, can do file formats and cut and paste. Also write some GUIs for those config files so the neighbour's kid can figure it out, pretty please?

      Basically if dumping remote functions is needed for desktop features then that's the way to go. The people at the server end know how to install what they need themselves on the other hand.

    2. Re:Not 1990 anymore so don't roll back by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Fair enough. If you take the "beige box is the hard drive" approach then none of our opinions are of any worth at all.
      In the end function is more important than some sort of race to the bottom.
      IMHO the "actually worked" thing you are writing about is a very clear example of moving from a quickly thrown together toy to a server style OS. Part of "caring about users" is not taking network functionality away just at the point when a lot of people can start to to get some use out of it - it's as short sighted as ripping sound cards out of computers just because it's 1997 and only a few geeks are playing mp3 files.

  25. No kidding by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 2

    For all the crowing about network transparency, it is not the killer feature to most. In terms of network management MS's RDP easily wins out. Reason is that it works well and supports low bandwidth situations very well since it isn't just a pixel-based protocol. However for ease of use and cross platform goodness, nothing beats VNC. That's what our Linux guru uses, in the situations where a command line isn't enough, not remote X.

    Frankly, given the difference between local interconnects and network speed, I don't think network transparency is the kind of thing to worry about. Rather, make a good local display system, and then add the ability to serve it out over the network through whatever means are appropriate, much like Windows does with RDP. The focus should be on good local display, as that is really what matters.

  26. Congrats by DrXym · · Score: 1

    X11 is a dinosaur and a millstone around the neck of Linux. Huge chunks of it are completely obsolete and what remains is just a bottleneck and extra context switches to drag down performance. The sooner it is dumped the better for Linux. People who really want remote desktops can run X11 as a client over Wayland though eventually Wayland will get a remote protocol which will do away with that requirement too.

    1. Re:Congrats by morgauxo · · Score: 1

      Your faith in Wayland ever getting a remote protocol seems pretty blind to me. The developers sound quite opposed to the idea.

    2. Re:Congrats by fikx · · Score: 1

      So, Wayland will allow running Wayland apps on a machine with no display and sending the output to a machine with a display? If it does, then I'm more interested. Everything I read so far says it will not be able to do that, or will require some kind of dummy Wayland desktop to be running on the same machine with the app...

      --
      AB HOC POSSUM VIDERE DOMUM TUUM
  27. Is it possible to test in, now? by Yomers · · Score: 1

    Is it possible to test it right now? If so, what is the easiest way? I would try it on VM.

  28. Client Side Decorations by rvalles · · Score: 1

    Like Martin, I'm worried about Client Side Decorations:

    http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2010/05/open-letter-the-issues-with-client-side-window-decorations/

    I'm worried as I'm not sure they've done anything to address this. I'm certain I will not be touching it unless the window manager can be set to be the one drawing them.

    1. Re:Client Side Decorations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I can't write my window manager for it, it's so unusable it's not even funny.

    2. Re:Client Side Decorations by spitzak · · Score: 1

      What about the buttons and scrollbars and every other widget in your applications? Why is it ok for these to be drawn by the clients, but not the "window decorations".

      Historical cruft is not a good excuse. A solution that fixes every widget (often called an "appearance library") is better, and one of the big obstuctions for this in X (and Windows) is that the window borders are drawn by a totally different subsystem than every other widget.

      Also you have certainly never worked with ICCCM and/or the new WM hints api in X11, or you would know what a horrible mess it is to have part of the image drawn by a different process than your program.

    3. Re:Client Side Decorations by rvalles · · Score: 1

      I see those buttons and scrollbars as something completely different. As you say they're *IN* applications.

      ICCCM and the new WM hints X11 api being great or sucking has little to do with the subject at hand.

      Fortunately, if some posts here are right, CSD is a Weston "feature", not fundamentally imposed by Wayland, so those who don't want CSD won't be forced to use it.

      Long term things might normalize either way (or not). I'm certainly not jumping on the CSD bandwagon, as I don't see what the problem is it supposedly solves.

  29. It's not a speedboat, it's a harbour wall by dbIII · · Score: 1

    I'm sure wayland can do something similar.

    The entire point is that it doesn't. Pure 1980s single user without a network mentality. The bits you've seen about networking here are speculation about adding an external screen scraper in response to people complaining about the single user without a network mentality. It's not an answer, it's just fobbing off the question with a hope that somebody else will do something about it.

    It's not a speedboat, it's a harbour wall with graffiti on it. They are hoping that somebody else will take a photo of the graffiti, put it on their speedboat, and then deliver it somewhere else. However nobody has the camera or the speedboat yet. It may not be that hard to do, I don't know, but it's a non-answer because nobody has done that for Wayland yet or even started trying.

  30. Missunderstanding the issues by Trevelyan · · Score: 5, Informative

    The two main complaints I see discussed here appear to derive from some fundamental misunderstandings about what Wayland is.

    Wayland is a Protocol and an optional helper library to implementing that protocol. This protocol says nothing about net work transparency, in both the sense of enabling or prohibiting it. It also says nothing about client decorations. The key points here is not to make a decision for or against any particular technology or methodology and then be stuck with that decision for the next 20 years, like we are with X.

    How or if, either of these work is all down to the compositor. The reference compositor 'Weston' does not do network transparency and leaves window decoration to the client or its toolkit. However none of the big desktops, i.e end users, will be using this compositor. For example KDE will continue to use Kwin as their wayland compositor, and KDE have already clearly said that Kwin will be decorating their windows and not the clients!

    As to network transparency, all windows are drawn to their own back buffers, and where these buffers will be eventually displayed is also the choice of the compositor, and it might well just decided to send them over a network connection. e.g. like what VNC does.

    I think if you base your opinion on what other people say, including me, then maybe you shouldn't comment? All of this is discussed first hand on the Wayland web site and/or mailing list.

    Unfortunately since I've posted a bit late, I doubt many will read this...

    1. Re:Missunderstanding the issues by morgauxo · · Score: 1

      I have read the Wayland FAQ too and various responses that Wayland developers have written to the network transparency criticism too. Usually it devolves into talk about running X on Wayland (which says nothing about how to run a non X Wayland application remotely). Now.. let's go with what you have written. Network transparency in the compositor. With KDE applications that means KWin. So let's say KDE decides they like network transparency and build that into KWin. Great! so now my KDE apps can still run remotely. What about non-KDE apps? Will Gnome applications run remotely? And every other application? Even if they all implement network transparency in their own way does this mean I have to do something different to make each of them run remotely? I can't just set DISPLAY=.... and go anymore?

    2. Re:Missunderstanding the issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I read it. Until these guys put their code where their mouth is I don't believe it.

  31. xpra is rootless by lindi · · Score: 1

    xpra does what you want.

  32. sysadmin using a gui? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    sysadmin using a gui? thats strange... may be u should turn to ms windows

  33. ...and you lost me. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You had me agreeing with your assessment, right up until you mentioned VNC as a successor.

    Let me be clear. VNC BLOWS GOATS! It is an epic steaming pile of you know what. It is NOT a suitable replacement for any remote desktop based system. Not even X and network transparency.

    On a somewhat tangential note: I find it interesting how things have changed over the past few years, not just in the X or Linux world, but in the computer industry at large. Not that long ago, people were hugely excited about changes and improvements. They were eager to get their hands on the new version of whatever and couldn't wait for upcoming features. There were lines for new versions of Windows and most people ran the latest beta of whatever Linux distro they liked. Fast forward to today, and it seems like we are stuck in a loop of "re-invention" where applications and desktops are continually made over for the sake of "improvement" and it is met with howls of protest from the user base.

    People are tired of; 'we decided to re-engineer from scratch because we didn't have anything better to do and think our way(or $newLanguage) is better. Along the way we lost a boat load of functionality, but don't worry we plan to reach feature parity within the next four to ten years. Perhaps Wayland and others would be better off if they advertised what new benefit they will bring. If it is something that people actually want they will gravitate to it.

    Unfortunately, the developers of these projects typically lose interest in less than those four years and the cycle of diminishing returns continues.

  34. Network transparency ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Almost everythings I read here about X11 is its
    Network Transparency ??
    WTF I have to do with
    Network Transparency ??
    as a user of KDE/Gnome/ on my own LOCAL COMPUTER AT HOME or even at my office ????
    Because my admin guy needs to have
    Network Transparency ??
    Or because my only own ONE computer at home do need
    Network Transparency ??
    for no reasons ???

    X11 IS a FU&^%ing 30 years old crawling beast!
    So even if I do have 2,3,4 computers at home, those will be one or two linux, one Apple Mac/iOS, and the others will certainly be Windows 7/8, and Wii, Playstation, XBox, etc...

    As a linux user, I DO WANT to have local and native 2D/OpenGL performances of my 200-600$ worthy graphics card(s) that is NOT obscured behind layers and layers of [client/server] "protocols" and Network Transparency
      DOT.

    1. Re:Network transparency ? by morgauxo · · Score: 1

      I really doubt that network transparency is what is slowing down your $200 video card. X applications have had channels for communicating with local X servers without going over the network or even TCP/IP for a very long time. Your $200 video card is slowed down because the company that made it only implemented core features in the X driver. They are probably even less interested in developing full drivers for yet another system.

      Also, I am not an 'admin guy'. I do use network transparency though.. a lot. I don't really use 3d acceleration, at least not for more than eye candy that isn't really very important to me. I don't want your favorite feature to go away though! Why do you want to take away mine?

  35. Ah, Wayland by MAXOMENOS · · Score: 1

    Can I have a remote Wayland session over ssh, like I do with X? No? Then no, it's not going to replace X in an industrial-grade environment.

  36. network transparency, xpra is where it's at by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The one significant missing piece of this puzzle is network transparency, it doesn't look like the Wayland code is credible at this stage (not even the unreleased hacks), and before someone mentions NX or VNC, let me remind you that these technologies were designed in the 90s and 80s respectively - they *were* great. xpra is where it's at. Video encoding, and h264 in particular, has made great strides in the last few years, which means that you can now get both a high compression ratio and high quality. Try it, it's awesome. (and as with NX and VNC, you don't lose your session when the network drops)

  37. only part people need? by gr8_phk · · Score: 1

    The only part of X11 that people need is network transparent remote display, but that's the one part that the developers are absolutely hell bent on removing.

    I thought people needed memory management, window management, font management, text rendering capability, graphics drawing, backing store, OpenGL, composited desktops, the ability to sync sound and video, stuff like that. You must mean that network transparency is the one feature that sets X apart.

    In fact it's the only part of X that's still relevant. KMS, DRI, cairo, pango, GTK or QT, Gnome or KDE libs etc have taken over almost every part of X. Wayland simply acknowledges this and aims for simplicity by allowing those other parts of a modern system to do their jobs and doing little else. Networked display will show up at some point via some method that's better than VNC too.

  38. That was Fresco by tepples · · Score: 1

    You're not thinking of the Berlin Consortium or something are you? I think they changed their name to something catchier later, but it escapes me

    That was Fresco. It died sometime in 2004.

  39. X11 and Wayland will coexist by tepples · · Score: 1

    No, Wayland is throwing out ALL X11 compatibility

    As long as there's a widely available, free X11 server that sits on top of Wayland, compatibility isn't thrown out. And seeing as X.Org X11 and Wayland share a lot of developers, I fully anticipate that such a server will be maintained. From the FAQ: "we now run [X11 applications] under a root-less X server that is itself a client of the Wayland server. [...] With Wayland we can move the X server and all its legacy technology to a optional code path." Do you fear that this code path will bit-rot due to lack of test coverage as GUI toolkits are ported to Wayland and desktop Linux distributions make the switch?

    1. Re:X11 and Wayland will coexist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is the same, incorrect, and logically inconsistent answer which is always fired back. What you're saying is, remote applications are, by design, a thing of the past.

      Perhaps a better question is ask and answer is, why in a time when remote is becoming defacto in almost every aspect of computing is the "solution" specifically trying to break all things remote? I don't have an answer, but the question is 'Wayland'.

      People would feel a lot better about Wayland if they bothered to pull their head from their asses and actually address the core questions to which Wayland has bent over backwards to avoid addressing. Perhaps such behavior is a good indicator something is seriously wrong in the land of Wayland?

    2. Re:X11 and Wayland will coexist by evilviper · · Score: 1

      I can run rootless X11 applications on Windows as well. A seperate compatibilty layer does not fix the problem. And everything staying X11 compatible completely eliminates any need for the added complexity and performance hit of Wayland.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  40. OS Compatibility is the biggest problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wayland is still linux centric! UDEV is required.. why?

    Wayland needs to run on other unix like operating systems or it's useless. If you want to replace X, it needs to run most of the places X ran!

  41. What animations and shadows do by tepples · · Score: 1

    I can't for the life of me imagine that it's actually efficient to have a bunch of fancy animations and shadows and transparency and 3D effects

    These effects help the user see how the various things displayed on the screen relate to one another. Shadows, for example, indicate to the user that a particular element is on top of another in the stack, which is why Mac OS has been doing some sort of shadow (even if faked through the shape of the window frame) since 1984. Animations of window A going into or out of icon B, such as a folder window coming out of an opened folder icon or a window minimizing down to a taskbar icon, indicate that the object represented by B is the parent to the object represented by A.

  42. Valve doesn't think graphics suck on Linux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Valve: L4D2 runs 20% faster on Ubuntu than Windows 7
    http://www.techspot.com/news/49630-valve-l4d2-runs-20-faster-on-ubuntu-than-windows-7.html

  43. I predict by Mister+Liberty · · Score: 1

    Wayland's 'market' will be adjusted to its capabilities
    sooner than vice versa. Today's paradigm.

    In truth, "Not yet ready" will be its middle name.

  44. Add FreeBSD support, then we'll talk. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    (Subject says it all.)

    --libman

    1. Re:Add FreeBSD support, then we'll talk. by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      Why would anyone want to talk to FreeBSD users?

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    2. Re:Add FreeBSD support, then we'll talk. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, I can think of several reasons...

      Seriously, kernel monoculture is bad. One kernel cannot be the ideal solution for every possible situation.

      --libman

    3. Re:Add FreeBSD support, then we'll talk. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seriously, I think most FreeBSD users are a bunch of tools.

      ps - dressing up average looking girlfriends in devil horns doesn't make them into hot chicks. Long pants and and a red blouse? seriously, you're into that shit?

  45. Citrix... apk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Sure vnc or rdp can do this sort of thing, but not at an app (really per window) basis." - by caseih (160668) on Tuesday October 23, @01:47AM (#41737971)

    Ah, but Full-Blown Citrix can...

    (Since, "come right down to it"? It's only a modded version of Windows Server really, & has ALL SORTS of "per window" + "per application" possibilities...)

    APK

    P.S.=> It's STILL better than "stock Windows" imo @ least... apk

  46. There's OTHER WAYS too... apk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Per my other post, regarding Citrix -> http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3202975&cid=41743157 , you can also "rig up" Services for UNIX (by MS, purchased from the OpenNT system by Softway Systems) and its X server...

    See here -> http://www.softpanorama.net/Unixification/index.shtml

    and then here -> http://www.softpanorama.net/Unixification/SFU/index.shtml

    (Especially the latter, considering the "pertinent quote/excerpt" from it I quote next below)

    "SFU environment provides the most important Unix features including pipes, hard file links, symbolic file links, networking services, and X11 graphical support through the X Window System."

    APK

    P.S.=> I used to mess around with OpenNT when it came out & was still NOT owned/bought-out by MS & remember doing things like this using it, or Cygwin tools (or even "straight-ports" of *NIX apps to Win32 API stuff)... apk

  47. Wayland RDB by jbolden · · Score: 1

    The Wayland team is working with KDE and Gnome who are going to implement something like RDB for their respective GUIs. That's going to be how networking is going to be handled at the GUI level.

  48. Unified event subsystem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'd personally love to see a patchable universal event subsystem that flexibly combines keyboards, mice, MIDI and suchlike so that any device can be patched to control desired features of whatever application you want to.

  49. That misses why X is useful by billstewart · · Score: 1

    The important thing about X is very precisely the fact that it's a client-server protocol with network transparency, so the client app doesn't need to be on the same machine as the display server. When I was a sysadmin supporting a bunch of machines, the ability to have lots of windows on my screen that were running clients on lots of different hosts was really valuable, and now that I'm running VMware, I'd be a lot happier if I could do the same thing instead of running a lot of ssh logins and the VMware console widget. It's a bit less critical than it used to be, because lots of the "remote desktop" functionality is built into browsers now, but the tradeoff is big ugly browsers that crash a lot, burn gigabytes of RAM, and aren't very fast.

    There are other windowing protocols that also do this (for instance, NeWS, which renders things in Postscript, so what you see is not only what you get, but it's also what you want, and it supports downloading functions to the server so you can avoid round-trips during mouse motion, etc.), but the network transparency is the big win. Running NeWS on an 8MB Sun-3/50 was quite nice, even though these days I've got wristwatches with more horsepower.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  50. Only sort of mostly, but not always. by billstewart · · Score: 2

    So just this morning I had to reboot my Win7 machine, because I had an RDP session that wouldn't die. Was it because I hibernated the machine to bring it in to the office, disconnecting the VPN in the process? I don't know, but the "Are you sure you really want to close the window, we'll save the session for you, is that ok?" dialog box wouldn't go away and wanted to be on top.

    Win7 really is a lot better than XP, and XP was a lot better than 95/SE/ME were, but I still have to reboot it a couple of times a month. And stuff doesn't die for no good reason anywhere near as often as it used to (except Firefox, but our work IT department insists on using older versions with long-term support :-) (And at least Firefox saves its sessions relatively cleanly when it dies, unlike IE8.) And since I'm sometimes using an external monitor as well as the laptop screen, when I'm just on the laptop, sometimes there will be windows I can't open because they're on the Other Screen. If I were using X, these things wouldn't be problems.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  51. Using them? Yes. Happily? No. by billstewart · · Score: 1

    My normal work environment is a Win7 laptop, either on a 10 Mbps LAN at work or VPN from home, with Windows Remote Desktop Protocol connection through a firewall to a Win2008 server (currently running on VMware ESXi), which runs browsers and putty SSH connections to a variety of other machines in my lab. For the things it does, it mostly works ok. Cut&paste works pretty well, remote disk mounting is possible though I don't use it much, web pages with no sound and not too much movement render ok. Watching Youtube with sound on fails badly - way too jerky and painfully out of sync. Youtube with the sound off redraws the pictures better, but especially full-screen you can see the redraws happening on the LAN, and worse remotely. Traffic webcams do fine, network performance graphers do fine. On a LAN, it's better than running Motif on a 386/33 was (ok, it's better than that, because I've got a 1920x1080 32-bit screen instead of a 640x480 8-bit screen... but considering that I've got a few thousand times more horsepower now, it ought to be enough better to be extremely transparent.)

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  52. Transparency _is_ the killer feature by billstewart · · Score: 1

    So if I want to have my desktop connected to a few dozen target machines using RDP, how do you suggest I do it? Keep a few dozen RDP login windows active? Clunky! At that point I might as well just run a few dozen ssh sessions, or stick to browser-based management applications. RDP is fine if I want to talk to one machine at a time (and in fact my Windows desktop usually has an RDP session to a Windows server on my lab network, which has a few dozen ssh and browser sessions open running management applications, because they're mostly on target machines that don't run X.)

    (And if all your foes are spelling or grammar Nazis, that means you only make enemies of intelligent people, which _is_ a step up from the kinds of enemies lots of people have, I suppose....)

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  53. Re:fine if you want Linux to be purely a server OS by billstewart · · Score: 1

    You've got it backwards - if I wanted Linux to be purely a server OS, I'd be fine with administering it over ssh with an occasional https light-GUI tool. With Linux on a desktop running an X window server, I can also run graphical applications on other not-purely-server Linux machines. Also, as VMware and its competitors in the dedicated and cloud businesses are proliferating, more and more things are becoming servers (even my laptop, which often has multiple VMware clients running.)

    It would be nice if X had evolved a bit more than it has, but simply running it on machines that are thousands of times more powerful than the Sun 3/50 and 386/33 I first used for X windows in the 1980s really is a good start.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  54. Re:Using them? Yes. Happily? No. by smash · · Score: 1

    Try doing that same workload with X11 and see how it compares.

    --
    I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
  55. PC-BSD by unixisc · · Score: 1

    BSD currently has no plans to support Wayland, and usually takes a while before catching up (unless it's a standard like IPv6). That said, the guys who do PC-BSD could strive to make Wayland at least an option on PC-BSD 10. Other BSD server based platforms, like FreeBSD, OpenBSD may continue to rely on either X or the plain CLI, but PC-BSD is one BSD platform that could make good use of Wayland.

  56. RDP / VNC / NX / Xpra by tota · · Score: 1

    RDP is good, I agree - I hate to admit it - but there are also limitations (cost and setup..)
    VNC is just plain outdated (1980s technology)
    NX is now closed source and the last open source version is unmaintained
    Xpra is the new kid on the block (the xpra.org version) - from your comments, it sounds like you should try it

    On *nix, only the last 2 support seamless mode. (RDP could do it but is too much work to setup)
    Disclaimer: xpra.org maintainer

    --
    TODO: 753) write sig.
  57. "I've tried all.." - maybe you haven't? by tota · · Score: 1

    xpra.org may be worth a try. Although it is not a "remote desktop" solution but a seamless remote application solution.

    --
    TODO: 753) write sig.
  58. "works like a charm" - doesn't for me by tota · · Score: 1

    It is certainly possible, but easy it is not.
    The latest instructions on how to get seamless RDP to work with Linux are well out of date and never worked reliably or properly for me...

    --
    TODO: 753) write sig.