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OpenGL Becoming a Requirement For the Linux Desktop
An anonymous reader writes "Modern Linux desktops like Ubuntu's Unity and the GNOME Shell have placed a requirement on OpenGL 2.0+ support for handling their compositing window managers and desktop effects. Wayland's Weston also needs OpenGL ES 2.0 support. Now with modern Linux distributions like Ubuntu 12.10, rather than falling back to a 2D unaccelerated desktop if you don't have a sufficient GPU or graphics driver, users are being forced to run LLVMpipe as a CPU-based software rasterizer. LLVMpipe works fine if you are on a new PC with a fast x86-64 CPU, but the OpenGL-based Linux desktops are causing growing pains for ARM hardware, virtual machines, servers, multi-seat computers, and of course all older hardware. LLVMpipe is a Mesa Gallium3D driver that uses LLVM for run-time code generation as an attempt at accelerating graphics faster on the CPU. So much for Linux being good for old computers?"
The KMS based graphics stack is already effectively unusable on AGP systems (if you have SMP + AGP, there are race conditions somewhere leading to really hard crashes that appeared a couple of years ago and dozens of years old open bugs with no resolution other than "use PCI mode" which cuts bus bandwidth by 4 or 8 times, and still doesn't work with SMP), but for those with older PCIe/IGP systems you could always runs Window Maker, Sawfish, Enlightenment, Open Box, or one of many other window managers without a compositor. Of course then you lose compositing, and there aren't any usable external compositors for some reason. The flipside to this is that moving to OpenGL as the primary interface to the GPU means one fewer driver that has to be written, and will probably lead to an overall improved experience for those with supported hardware given the limited resources Free Software drivers authors have.
Still no OpenGL required for Fluxbox. Still snappy on old hardware too.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
There's a simple solution - install Windows Server 2003/2008. It doesn't need fancy graphics card to operate. That is, if you are looking for server/virtual server OS. Otherwise you can just go with Windows XP or Windows 7.
A headless windows server doesn't need a fancy graphics card... but neither does a headless linux server.
you are out of date. Unity 2d is now dropped.
KDE (Kwin) has one of the most advanced compositing window managers around. You can toggle compositive off with alt+shift+F12 and go back to a 2D desktop. If it detects that it cannot run with compositing due to hardware limitations, it will do that by default, or you can configure it not to if you just don't like that.
There is no requirement for OpenGL in any reasonable window manager.
Why does Mesa even exist? It was supposed to be a software implementation of OpenGL, but it never had good enough performance for much of anything. Instead it became some sort of wrapper for OpenGL drivers. They said it could be used as a fallback for any features not implemented in the hardware drivers (but with terrible performance). And now with the LLVM pipe driver it's not even used for software rendering any more. Somehow it just keeps sticking around. What's up with that?
An alternative "external compositor" can be found here. Was fairly trivial to prepare deb packages and it is on the wishlist in debian. Looking now, I see they just tagged the first version of it two days ago so maybe it's time to update the deb package and submit.
Get real, the world runs on whatever the fuck it needs to run. That means Linux, Windows, BSD, HPUX, what-the-hell gets the job done (or, does approximately so, and makes the business-goons-who-make decisions happy).
Leave your fantasy idealism world and look at reality some time.
Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
Does KDE requires OpenGL support now as well?
you could always runs Window Maker, Sawfish, Enlightenment, Open Box, or one of many other window managers without a compositor.
I think I can just disable the compositor on KDE and re-enable it if I wish. Or does the author have a bias against KDE that he/she is not mentioned one of the most used Linux desktops?
http://www.mueller-public.de - My site http://www.anr-institute.com/ - Advanced Natural Research Institute
No reason to use what some distros (that apparently have gone off the deep end) offer as defaults. Stay with x.org, use a sane window manager like fvwm, xfce, etc. where the developers actually remember what the role of a window manager is, and this stupid discussion does not need to concern you at all.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
There are occasional indications that there is not "much" effort put into desktop linux, this is one of them. I recently tried running Ubuntu 12.04 on an AMD64 x2 with an AGP NVIDIA 6800, it didn't work, much as suggested here. I had not known there would be such a problem, now I know. So it is either an older Linux (maybe with NVIDIA blob support), newer BSD without proper graphics driver support, or Windows. Now I would personally feel that that machine is not horribly out of date, it has SATA, 2 GB of memory, etc...
"but money is the God of Algiers & Mahomet their prophet." - Rich. O'Bryen June 8th 1786
You'd be surprised how many people run older hardware. I don't give a damn about gaming; so all three desktops and one of the two laptops in my house are old 32-bit machines (Athlons, Pentium 4 3.06GHz HT, Celeron in the lappy). They run apps just as fast as when they were new state-of-the-art machines - it seems daft that it's the window management that's forcing me to look for leaner distros. I'm certainly not going to spend money upgrading hardware to have prettier window decorations and physics.
Ydco co
I can assure you that my nine year old (but basically eleven year old tech, I got it for a steal when they EOLed everything after the Athlon64 FX was released) AthlonMP is still alive and kicking. With two 2.13GHz processors, 4G of RAM, and a Radeon X1650 it wouldn't be too shabby. Except for the part where I have to keep CPU1 disabled to use OpenGL (initially, I blamed having a Radeon 9100 so I got the new one, no dice). My only option at this point is to drop back to something like Debian lenny, but then I can't run xbmc (really, xbmc + zsnes + mame + {supertuxkart, armagetron} + a few xbox controllers = really sweet HTPC... and the box is great as a fileserver and build server all in one). For power, the thing idles at around 120W, so it's not even that much worse than a modern AMD based system on the power bill (we've got that nukular power round these parts, so I'm still paying a dime a kwh and can feel 1/3 fewer pangs of guilt about burning coal). With the second CPU disabled, however, it's just an underpowered old machine instead of something competetive with a more modern low end desktop.
I gave up on debugging it (the lock up is so hard, even kgdb doesn't work... and trying to do the remote tracing thing also doesn't work because the last traces before the crash don't make it to the serial port). It's turned perfectly usable hardware into ... well, I'm getting an FX-whatever rig next week. Probably better for the economy, not so great for my account balance.
HAL 7000, fewer features than the HAL 9000, but just as homicidal!
Oh come on, are Slashdotters getting to be _that_ humorless. I need a Windows server like I need a hole in the head, but I laughed at the comment.
There are plenty of other choices - both for Linux distros and desktops, many specifically targeted towards the old hardware. Furthermore, if you are running so old hw that has AGP or some ARM devices, you probably don't want to run a full-blown Gnome/Unity on that anyway.
Do you think GNOME (and Co.) is the Linux desktop?
Ah! Have you ever heard about KDE, LXDE, XFCE etc. etc.? They seems not to require OpenGL at all! You insensitive Gtk-clod!
Sent as ripples into the electromagnetic field. No single photon has been harmed in the process.
If you run older hardware, what's the big rush to upgrade to a dist offering shiny new desktop any way? Install Debian, stick a light WM on it, or stick with an older dist which the hardware is capable of running.
I recently installed xubuntu on my portable after getting sick of the ubuntu desktop. I must say, I'm quite happy with the switch. It boots and runs very fast, and I think my battery life is a bit longer now too. The desktop is functional and traditional, "fancy features weirdo's" have not ruined the project yet.
"It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful." - Anton LaVey
You're not forced. There's still plenty of lightweight window managers available in the Ubuntu repositories.
Granted, Canonical could detect old hardware and automatically install such things by default. But it's hardly the end of the world.
$20 can get a decent PCI-e video card that can be used for accelerating desktop compositing. Resourceful people can probably even find suitable cards for free if they look around.
We are way beyond the point where a 3D accelerated video card is a luxury item in a PC.
dennis
Kwin can work without OpenGL and it's damn snappy. Not everything is gnome.
While Unity 2D may have been dropped, Ubuntu Precise (which is as you probably know a LTS) offers the "Gnome Classic (no effects)" option, which uses Metacity and no Compiz (install gnome-session-fallback). There are some small differences from older "pure" Gnome 2 (and there are plenty of tutorials on the web describing how to close the gap) but I haven't found anything critical, overall it's close enough to the Gnome 2 experience.
i ate crayons when i was a kid and now i have two braincells and the blue ones taste nicer
Too many comments forget Kwin. Which kind of shows nobody really uses KDE4, apparently, because it's a killer feature nobody knows about: It doesn't require GL and can enable and disable it on the fly without losing anything you are doing at the time. Even with automated rules!
Yes, it is. My A6-3500*-based PC idles under 30 W, full load is around 60 W.
*: 3x2.1 GHz CPU + HD 6530D GPU.
Real life is overrated.
I know! How dare they take advantage of graphics hardware of newer systems! X11 primitives should be enough for everyone!
It's also great if you want to work with Linux and the software available to it, but don't quite want to spend as much time screwing around with the platform.
Fortunately it's not.
Hey, look at that. Options for the technology-averse technologist. Can people stop bitching about the fact that the GUI subsystem is being modernized and go take advantage of all the old, inefficient, software-powered solutions that you prefer?
And a snickers.
Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
Don't lump KDE in with the others. It's just Gnome and Unity doing this.
Mada mada dane.
Is why I will never install Ubuntu again, and why this distribution is doomed to irrelevance. [...]
Don't misunderstand me: Ubuntu is fine if you are an absolute Linux beginner. For the rest of us, frankly, this is just one more nail in its coffin, as far as I am concerned, Ubuntu is fast becoming the Mandrake of the 20xx.
Ubuntu isn't just for "Linux beginners". It's for an audience that isn't able or doesn't want to spend time choosing, configuring and optimizing their operating system. These are also users who like an easy to use system that offers similar paradigms and visuals as other contemporary graphical interfaces, and will generally pay the price for that (e.g. not being able to use it comfortably on old hardware).
Your use of the term "Linux beginner" in this context only makes sense if you assume that Linux users with limited technical knowledge and interest are necessarily those who have recently started to use it - those who have just begun their journey towards more technical knowledge and will soon graduate to more hardcore distributions. But it doesn't account for people who have only basic computer skills, and are fine with that.
Ubuntu is built around the idea to make Linux accessible to mainstream users. In my opinion, this gives it a very important role at a time where competitors such as Windows 8 are moving to walled garden models for their closed-source software: It is the most credible offer for non-technical users who prefer a free-as-in-freedom operating system.
Optimizing for newer 3D hardware and mutil-core CPUs typically means making non-3D hardware and single-core computer's slower. The general rule for ANYTHING in life is keep up or get left behind. Enjoy your old computers all you want, but if you don't like the way opensource is moving, fork the project and do it yourself.
At least you have the option for leaner distros. That means there are enough like minded people to at least maintain code for you.
As for me, I want my $300 GPU and 12 thread CPU to be used. Not inefficiently just for the sake of using, but my OS/Software should be capable of making use in the case it is needed.
But precisely its strong point is what invalidates TFA. I don't love KDE for failures like akonadi or nepomuk, but because it has the best mainstream window manager out of the niche alternatives like Ratpoison or Awesome. It's compliant with modern standards, has automatic window rules set from a nice, handy GUI, has per-window keybindings, and is very fast on mediocre hardware like mine. It allows to maintain complex layouts without effort and without being limited by a tiled system (although that ALSO exists in Kwin, if that's your thing!).
If I need the compositing features I turn them on, if I need speed I turn compositing off, it's as simple as that, all your windows remain the same, you don't need to log out. You can even automate it with windows rules (3 clicks, literally). All your settings are kept, from theming to effects to thumbnailing or whatever.
So, because of that, I think kwin is pretty much worth mentioning in this news story. Sorry if you don't like, but it IS relevant to this discussion.
Thank you, I stand corrected. I would have figured the article would just say Gnome 3 moves from OpenGL 2 being highly recommend to mandatory if that was the only change.
I humbly disagree. I found happiness when I moved to Ubuntu (from Gentoo, but that's irrelevant)
You see, the defaults might suck for power users, but it not only has all the debian goodness inside, it also has a really good amount of up-to-date software in PPAs, and it's favored by many developers who release closed-source-free-software. The 2D CAD suite I use only has binary Ubuntu packages, for example. (rest is w32/64 and mac).
And hell, Steam will come to Ubuntu, more reason for me, a gamedev (in my free time) to stay tuned.
Only power users will really need (and know how to) replace things. Nothing prevents you from using Fluxbox, IceWM, FVWM, Awesome...all of them are available in the repos, that are enabled by default, and just a few clicks away. The Software Center is surprisingly decent too.
Consider that if people is able to do such things with their smartphones, they can do it with Ubuntu too. Average Joes aren't that stupid, they just have a horrible lack of will to learn nerdy things, and Ubuntu precisely helps to address that. Unity is horrible for, in my case, developing software, but I see how it works for somebody not willing to learn. The eyecandy makes it look less nerdy for the average user, and the software center makes it familiar for those who search the iOS/Android shop for tools, which is a lot of people, nowadays.
The rest of us...are free to do our thing, no one is stopping us, and that's why I think you are being needlessly harsh. If you use another distro because you like the defaults better, more power to you, it's a bit of time you'll save during setup, but it doesn't make Ubuntu really doomed to irrelevance at all.