Slashdot Mirror
OpenGL Becoming a Requirement For the Linux Desktop
An anonymous reader writes "Modern Linux desktops like Ubuntu's Unity and the GNOME Shell have placed a requirement on OpenGL 2.0+ support for handling their compositing window managers and desktop effects. Wayland's Weston also needs OpenGL ES 2.0 support. Now with modern Linux distributions like Ubuntu 12.10, rather than falling back to a 2D unaccelerated desktop if you don't have a sufficient GPU or graphics driver, users are being forced to run LLVMpipe as a CPU-based software rasterizer. LLVMpipe works fine if you are on a new PC with a fast x86-64 CPU, but the OpenGL-based Linux desktops are causing growing pains for ARM hardware, virtual machines, servers, multi-seat computers, and of course all older hardware. LLVMpipe is a Mesa Gallium3D driver that uses LLVM for run-time code generation as an attempt at accelerating graphics faster on the CPU. So much for Linux being good for old computers?"
The KMS based graphics stack is already effectively unusable on AGP systems (if you have SMP + AGP, there are race conditions somewhere leading to really hard crashes that appeared a couple of years ago and dozens of years old open bugs with no resolution other than "use PCI mode" which cuts bus bandwidth by 4 or 8 times, and still doesn't work with SMP), but for those with older PCIe/IGP systems you could always runs Window Maker, Sawfish, Enlightenment, Open Box, or one of many other window managers without a compositor. Of course then you lose compositing, and there aren't any usable external compositors for some reason. The flipside to this is that moving to OpenGL as the primary interface to the GPU means one fewer driver that has to be written, and will probably lead to an overall improved experience for those with supported hardware given the limited resources Free Software drivers authors have.
Still no OpenGL required for Fluxbox. Still snappy on old hardware too.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
There's a simple solution - install Windows Server 2003/2008. It doesn't need fancy graphics card to operate. That is, if you are looking for server/virtual server OS. Otherwise you can just go with Windows XP or Windows 7.
A headless windows server doesn't need a fancy graphics card... but neither does a headless linux server.
you are out of date. Unity 2d is now dropped.
KDE (Kwin) has one of the most advanced compositing window managers around. You can toggle compositive off with alt+shift+F12 and go back to a 2D desktop. If it detects that it cannot run with compositing due to hardware limitations, it will do that by default, or you can configure it not to if you just don't like that.
There is no requirement for OpenGL in any reasonable window manager.
Why does Mesa even exist? It was supposed to be a software implementation of OpenGL, but it never had good enough performance for much of anything. Instead it became some sort of wrapper for OpenGL drivers. They said it could be used as a fallback for any features not implemented in the hardware drivers (but with terrible performance). And now with the LLVM pipe driver it's not even used for software rendering any more. Somehow it just keeps sticking around. What's up with that?
Does KDE requires OpenGL support now as well?
you could always runs Window Maker, Sawfish, Enlightenment, Open Box, or one of many other window managers without a compositor.
I think I can just disable the compositor on KDE and re-enable it if I wish. Or does the author have a bias against KDE that he/she is not mentioned one of the most used Linux desktops?
http://www.mueller-public.de - My site http://www.anr-institute.com/ - Advanced Natural Research Institute
No reason to use what some distros (that apparently have gone off the deep end) offer as defaults. Stay with x.org, use a sane window manager like fvwm, xfce, etc. where the developers actually remember what the role of a window manager is, and this stupid discussion does not need to concern you at all.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
You'd be surprised how many people run older hardware. I don't give a damn about gaming; so all three desktops and one of the two laptops in my house are old 32-bit machines (Athlons, Pentium 4 3.06GHz HT, Celeron in the lappy). They run apps just as fast as when they were new state-of-the-art machines - it seems daft that it's the window management that's forcing me to look for leaner distros. I'm certainly not going to spend money upgrading hardware to have prettier window decorations and physics.
Ydco co
I can assure you that my nine year old (but basically eleven year old tech, I got it for a steal when they EOLed everything after the Athlon64 FX was released) AthlonMP is still alive and kicking. With two 2.13GHz processors, 4G of RAM, and a Radeon X1650 it wouldn't be too shabby. Except for the part where I have to keep CPU1 disabled to use OpenGL (initially, I blamed having a Radeon 9100 so I got the new one, no dice). My only option at this point is to drop back to something like Debian lenny, but then I can't run xbmc (really, xbmc + zsnes + mame + {supertuxkart, armagetron} + a few xbox controllers = really sweet HTPC... and the box is great as a fileserver and build server all in one). For power, the thing idles at around 120W, so it's not even that much worse than a modern AMD based system on the power bill (we've got that nukular power round these parts, so I'm still paying a dime a kwh and can feel 1/3 fewer pangs of guilt about burning coal). With the second CPU disabled, however, it's just an underpowered old machine instead of something competetive with a more modern low end desktop.
I gave up on debugging it (the lock up is so hard, even kgdb doesn't work... and trying to do the remote tracing thing also doesn't work because the last traces before the crash don't make it to the serial port). It's turned perfectly usable hardware into ... well, I'm getting an FX-whatever rig next week. Probably better for the economy, not so great for my account balance.
HAL 7000, fewer features than the HAL 9000, but just as homicidal!
Oh come on, are Slashdotters getting to be _that_ humorless. I need a Windows server like I need a hole in the head, but I laughed at the comment.
Do you think GNOME (and Co.) is the Linux desktop?
Ah! Have you ever heard about KDE, LXDE, XFCE etc. etc.? They seems not to require OpenGL at all! You insensitive Gtk-clod!
Sent as ripples into the electromagnetic field. No single photon has been harmed in the process.
If you run older hardware, what's the big rush to upgrade to a dist offering shiny new desktop any way? Install Debian, stick a light WM on it, or stick with an older dist which the hardware is capable of running.
I recently installed xubuntu on my portable after getting sick of the ubuntu desktop. I must say, I'm quite happy with the switch. It boots and runs very fast, and I think my battery life is a bit longer now too. The desktop is functional and traditional, "fancy features weirdo's" have not ruined the project yet.
"It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful." - Anton LaVey
You're not forced. There's still plenty of lightweight window managers available in the Ubuntu repositories.
Granted, Canonical could detect old hardware and automatically install such things by default. But it's hardly the end of the world.
While Unity 2D may have been dropped, Ubuntu Precise (which is as you probably know a LTS) offers the "Gnome Classic (no effects)" option, which uses Metacity and no Compiz (install gnome-session-fallback). There are some small differences from older "pure" Gnome 2 (and there are plenty of tutorials on the web describing how to close the gap) but I haven't found anything critical, overall it's close enough to the Gnome 2 experience.
i ate crayons when i was a kid and now i have two braincells and the blue ones taste nicer
Too many comments forget Kwin. Which kind of shows nobody really uses KDE4, apparently, because it's a killer feature nobody knows about: It doesn't require GL and can enable and disable it on the fly without losing anything you are doing at the time. Even with automated rules!
Yes, it is. My A6-3500*-based PC idles under 30 W, full load is around 60 W.
*: 3x2.1 GHz CPU + HD 6530D GPU.
Real life is overrated.
I know! How dare they take advantage of graphics hardware of newer systems! X11 primitives should be enough for everyone!
It's also great if you want to work with Linux and the software available to it, but don't quite want to spend as much time screwing around with the platform.
Fortunately it's not.
Hey, look at that. Options for the technology-averse technologist. Can people stop bitching about the fact that the GUI subsystem is being modernized and go take advantage of all the old, inefficient, software-powered solutions that you prefer?
Don't lump KDE in with the others. It's just Gnome and Unity doing this.
Mada mada dane.
But precisely its strong point is what invalidates TFA. I don't love KDE for failures like akonadi or nepomuk, but because it has the best mainstream window manager out of the niche alternatives like Ratpoison or Awesome. It's compliant with modern standards, has automatic window rules set from a nice, handy GUI, has per-window keybindings, and is very fast on mediocre hardware like mine. It allows to maintain complex layouts without effort and without being limited by a tiled system (although that ALSO exists in Kwin, if that's your thing!).
If I need the compositing features I turn them on, if I need speed I turn compositing off, it's as simple as that, all your windows remain the same, you don't need to log out. You can even automate it with windows rules (3 clicks, literally). All your settings are kept, from theming to effects to thumbnailing or whatever.
So, because of that, I think kwin is pretty much worth mentioning in this news story. Sorry if you don't like, but it IS relevant to this discussion.