Slashdot Mirror


Now That It's Here, Is There a Place For Windows RT?

concealment sends this quote from Ars: "The argument back then was this: Windows on ARM would mean discarding the thing that makes Windows entrenched and important: Windows applications. Tablets need all-new applications, and if you're going to run all-new applications then you don't really need Windows. ... In the time it has taken Microsoft to bring Windows on ARM to market, ARM's once overwhelming battery life advantage has been erased. The ARM CPUs may still have a slight power use edge, but the difference will typically be dwarfed by the power consumption of the screen. The Intel processors, in turn, bring CPU performance that is probably best in class (or close to it), and most importantly of all the ability to run the full version of Windows 8 and existing Windows applications. The hardware could look identical to the user, but if it has Intel inside, the user experience will be quite different. ... With these constraints and limitations, it's hard to see who exactly Windows RT is for. I acknowledge that there are certainly some users who will be content to use the browser, mail app, and perhaps type the occasional letter in Word or balance their checkbook in Excel: people for whom the Windows Store's current gaps do not matter. But I think a much wider selection of users will be ill-served by Windows RT."

31 of 287 comments (clear)

  1. Windows 8 by CajunArson · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As a tablet OS, Windows 8 is actually pretty nice. It's just that it's being crammed down our throats outside of tablets that makes it a PITA.

    As for RT vs. x86, I'd lean toward x86 unless there's a major price advantage to ARM. The Clovertrail chip looks to have good performance and battery life, so there's no massive technological reason to pick one over the other. Application compatibility is a nice win for x86 BUT.. the truth is you'll likely not want to run desktop applications on a tablet anyway.

    --
    AntiFA: An abbreviation for Anti First Amendment.
    1. Re:Windows 8 by bananaquackmoo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "unless there's a major price advantage to ARM"

      Hint: there is.

    2. Re:Windows 8 by viperidaenz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Hint: A couple of dollars, since Intel are pricing their new Atom's to directly compete with ARM SoC's

    3. Re:Windows 8 by Sir_Sri · · Score: 3, Interesting

      And the thing is, MS is thinking long term. They don't want to be caught pants down 3 or 4 years from now if some ARM maker produces a chip that is serious competition to Intel.

      The only way that future windows applications will work on both ARM and x86 is if people start developing for that now. They need just enough marketshare to warrant the added development time* for developers to make both an ARM and x86 version so that windows 9 or windows 10 on both will actually be appealing

      *Supposedly it's just a simple recompile in visual studio. How well that will actually work in practice on applications that need optimization I don't know. I know where I am isn't worried about ARM versions of what we do atm, so I haven't had any justification for working on it.

    4. Re:Windows 8 by viperidaenz · · Score: 4, Informative

      Atom CPU's have already sold as low as $19 a piece.

    5. Re:Windows 8 by larry+bagina · · Score: 3, Informative

      The MS/EC agreement was for computers only. Tablets and phones (WinCE at the time) weren't included.

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    6. Re:Windows 8 by jonbryce · · Score: 4, Funny

      They currently have a 0% market share, behind the market leaders Apple, Android and even Blackberry.

    7. Re:Windows 8 by viperidaenz · · Score: 4, Informative

      Atom Medfield and Clovertrail are SoC's. They have integrated memory controllers and GPU's. Regrettably Intel don't have public pricing on Medfield and Clovertrail Atom's

    8. Re:Windows 8 by VortexCortex · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The only way that future windows applications will work on both ARM and x86 is if people start developing for that now. They need just enough marketshare to warrant the added development time* for developers to make both an ARM and x86 version so that windows 9 or windows 10 on both will actually be appealing

      No. You see, C# uses a virtual machine. It's MS's version of Java. That's their strategy for cross platform. Thats how XNA code runs on my PC and on the XBox without change. They call it "Managed Code" -- Bytecode in a Virtual Machine. Hint: Android uses the Java language, and Davlik VM for cross platform.

      MSVC is not what developers really need to be using to ensure future relevance. OSs are becoming Irrelevant (actually have been for a long time). We developers only care about getting our software running on as much hardware as people want it too. There's no reason at all to limit our marketshare needlessly.

      With an entrenched code base tied to a proprietary compiler suite you're at the OS vendor's mercy. What's smart is to use a cross platform framework like Qt, GTK, or another OS abstraction layer and compiler toolchain, for any new projects. A minimal OS abstraction can be created in a weekend (I know because that's how long it took me to make my own GLUT replacement)... In this way I don't have to do ANY extra work to get code additions to compile for x86, x64, ARM, PPC on GNU/Windows, GNU/Linux, GNU/OSX, etc.
      I "git pull & make" and I'm done "porting" from any supported platform to another -- And this is for 3D Game Code (programs notorious for being hard to port). For any other programs it should be a no brainer. Cross platform toochain or bust. Ah but C# really only works well on Windows, so MS is pushing that hard -- Native compiled code instead of MS byte-code means they can't be your exclusive platform as easily.

      VMs are OK, but they're slow for things that actually need performance of running on the metal. What we need is a cross platform object code format that the OSs then link into binaries at install time... (Gee, someone ought to make such a compiler / OS) Since we don't have such a system the next best thing is either a VM with JIT compiling, or building binaries for each target platform.

      I gave up trying to create code that I could compile with all the popular toolchains: MS/Windows and LLVM/OSX & BSD as well as GNU/Linux. I could have gone with LLVM over GCC, but I'm more familiar with GAS, so I picked a GNU based userland & toolchain. An MS compiler wasn't even on the table -- They have no cross platform OS agnostic compiler (publicly) available. A brand new processor can come out tomorrow, say, a 48 core AMD 128 bit processor with a totally new instruction set: LEG. As soon as it runs GCC (read: Linux) all of my code can run on it.

      W8? An OS? ... OS?! ... Screw OSs. They're just the platform you use to get your software on. Your OS choice shouldn't affect what software you can run -- We solved that problem in the 70s, now it's time to actually start using the damn solution already. Not servicing market segments due to compiler choices is like throwing away perfectly good money.

    9. Re:Windows 8 by Threni · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Because they've not yet become irrelevant. The OP sounds like a bit of an evangelist, and wants you think what should - and is happening - has happened. It hasn't, but he's sort of right. The dinosaur OSes have had their day - people are as happy - sorry, happer - using a decent mobile OS to access their apps/data, than the older OSes. Why can I sent a document from one app on my phone to another app/person by sharing via a button press or two, whereas on my desktop OS I have to try and download it , poke around trying to find it on my file system somewhere (good luck with that if you're not technical), then upload it again into my email system (duh - of course you transfer files using email - what else would you do?), and email it somewhere else. 1970's crap. It's time to start over.

    10. Re:Windows 8 by sproketboy · · Score: 3, Informative

      Not quite. C# lacks a universal binary. You need to build for each platform which is a PITA compared to Java.

  2. I remember by wbr1 · · Score: 4, Funny

    I remember WindowsNT. What happened to WindowsOT, WindowsPT, and WindowsQT?

    --
    Silence is a state of mime.
    1. Re:I remember by tekrat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I remember Windows NT for Alpha.... Yeah, the DEC Alpha.

      --
      If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
  3. Oh do shut up by AmiMoJo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Another in the seemingly endless torrent of stories about how Windows RT is imminently about to fail. Get back to me after xmas at the earliest. It is too soon too tell, all we know now is that a bunch of big name manufacturers are at least willing to give it a try.

    --
    const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
    SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  4. Windows RT == Zune by tekrat · · Score: 4, Interesting

    in other words, supported for a few years and then dropped when there's zero financial incentive to keep it going. It will be treated by developers as a dead-end, so there will never be compelling apps, which will sign the death-warrant.

    --
    If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
    1. Re:Windows RT == Zune by tftp · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Keep in mind though, that apps made for windows 8 "metro-style" will be compatible with windows RT. So the ecosystem will build up anyway.

      Now you need to answer a different question. Why would anyone develop for Metro? What is the advantage of having one or several huge monitors dedicated to one application? Even the IE in Metro mode looks ugly as sin, to the point of being useless. Who would want a browser that uses "magic spots" to reveal menus and that would hide every control in existence at the first opportunity? Can you imagine Photoshop in Metro mode? Or SolidWorks? PC software is not for playing around, it's for doing work, and Metro is not helping there at all.

      Metro applications, necessarily simplistic, make sense on a tablet. However tablets do not benefit from x86 - to the point that hardly any of them use x86 today. A Metro developer would be burdened with supporting his software on platforms that generate no sales.

  5. Win 8 RT by erp_consultant · · Score: 4, Insightful

    For me it's a non starter because you can't run existing Windows applications on it. Microsoft delivers a scaled down version of Office on it but it doesn't include Outlook. Apparently there is some sort of other email client on it. Why would I buy one of these things if I have to go out and buy new software for it? If I'm going to do that I might as well get an iPad or Android tablet. Those two also have a much, much bigger selection of titles in their respective app stores compared to MicroSoft.

    I don't understand why the RT was released before the x86 model since RT seems to have a much more limited audience. Maybe there were some manufacturing delays with the x86 model? If I were going to buy one of the Surface tablets (and I'm not) I would go for the x86 model.

    1. Re:Win 8 RT by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 4, Informative

      Outlook is needed for legacy reasons. I'd really like to know if MSIE 6.0 will be supported on these devices.

    2. Re:Win 8 RT by Microlith · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't understand why the RT was released before the x86 model since RT seems to have a much more limited audience.

      My guess is to push the adoption of formerly-Metro. Microsoft gets a platform out there that only supports that API (and only their store) and you force developers to start using it. Then when Windows 8 is released and x86 tablets come out they can simply release builds for it and go. There's no end-run to be had by simply using Win32.

      Microsoft is really, really aching to get their own lock-in centric walled garden going, and Windows RT is the only way they can do it without getting strung up by every regulatory agency on both sides of the Atlantic.

    3. Re:Win 8 RT by mevets · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think that the common factor behind the long string of failures in the pre-iPad tablets was the appropriateness of the software. Simply throwing PC software on it with some bigger buttons didnâ(TM)t work very well. They were awkward to use, and were quickly binned as irrelevant.

      While Windows 8, itself, is said to be better presented on tablets, that doesnâ(TM)t mean that off the shelf PC software is. The software will require a lot more of a rework to be usable than the rework required for an ARM port.

  6. Re:The Magic 8 ball says ... by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 4, Funny

    a system error has occurred

  7. Re:It's too bad tablets are pretty much useless. by SJHillman · · Score: 3, Insightful

    As you said, the tablet is a niche device, but I don't think it's entirely a fad. Sure, $600+ tablets are a fad, but the lower end tablets (such as my own Nook Color) fill a nice gap where my smartphone isn't capable enough, but my laptop is overkill. It has replaced my laptop for day or weekend trips when I don't plan on doing more than some web browsing and typing emails. The $150-$300 is a nice price point for tablets... much more than that and you might as well just get a laptop.

  8. Re:The Magic 8 ball says ... by Tough+Love · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Let's be specific about it. The place for Windows RT is to occupy the void formerly filled by Windows CE, with similar success. A Windows that isn't really Windows. Just the thing to irritate the same sheeple who once raised Microsoft up to the dizzying heights of world's most valuable company.

    Just a historical note apropo to nothing in particular: when Alaric I marched into Rome to sack it in 410 AD, much of the city had already reverted to swampland. The aquaducts had long since silted up and the sewers weren't working. What Romans remained were living in squalor. So much for former glory.

    --
    When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
  9. Re:I think it is aimed at businesses and academia by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

    But my netbook is still far more functional than a tablet or a phone. For what I use those devices for, I don't actually need to do much in the way of actual office app work. In fact, even a netbook is too cramped for that, which is why I still have my PC and my notebook, because they have full sized keyboards and bigger displays (the latter is absolutely key to spreadsheets, many of the ones I have I normally work with on dual monitors).

    I'll be honest. If my tablet or phone can just display the powerpoint presentation or Word document, that's good enough for me. I cannot imagine anyone seriously want to use a tablet as some sort of out-of-office workhorse. For a touch typist like myself, I doubt I can get much beyond 20-30WPM with considerable errors on a touch screen. A real keyboard, even a crappy neo-chiclet keyboard, is infinitely superior.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  10. Its niche by Tarlus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Windows RT will be right at home with people who have, until now, been okay with the fact that their Android and iOS tablets are not running a desktop class operating system. They just want the basic web and multimedia functionality.

    The bigger question is this: How will Microsoft educate consumers about the difference between RT and 8; ARM and x86?

    --
    /* No Comment */
  11. Windows RT for Kiosk, POS, Control systems? by Jonah+Hex · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What struck me when I first heard that Windows RT will look like Windows 8 but won't run the same apps was that it'd be perfect for systems that traditionally run special purpose software on top of Windows. So as the title says, Kiosks, Point of Sale, and Control systems where they can trade on the fact that standard Windows vulnerabilities like viruses won't run on the ARM. - HEX

  12. The answer is NO by kelemvor4 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This isn't something that requires technical knowledge of, nor does it require a like or dislike for microsoft. The LAW says the answer is no: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge's_law_of_headlines

  13. On The Phone by zanderz · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Windows 8 Phone is supposed to have the same kernel as WinRT devices on ARM. If they can pull this off they will have it both ways: a huge desktop user base with tons of messy legacy and a sparkly new "walled garden" where they will have lots more control over the whole experience and what is allowed in. Writing for Metro mode is supposed to yield an app that will pretty much run on phones and tablets, without the fragmentation of Android devices/environments. Even if nobody else wants it on their tablets or desktops, at least one batch of Nokia phones will need it.

  14. Re:Headline with a question mark means ... by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 3

    Worse yet, it's the third such near-identical headline in a week. And that's before the devices have been released. It's at least understandable (if still idiotic) when it's about Apple products, but here? What is there to talk about until the reviews come in?

  15. RT == SecureBoot by mdmkolbe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Microsoft requires all ARM devices implement SecureBoot with no way to turn it off. So, no, I have no place for RT.

  16. Re:The Magic 8 ball says ... by blueish+yellow · · Score: 4, Funny

    Curse you, I've just lost an hour on wikipedia!