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Iran's High Tech Copycat War Against the West: Drones and Cyberwar
An anonymous reader writes "Iran and its nuclear program seem to be getting all the headlines. Yet, Iran has found a way to respond to western cyber attacks such as Stuxnet, drone surveillance and targeted assassinations; they've decided to respond in kind. Iran has launched its own cyber attacks on U.S. banks via denial-of-service attacks. Iranian drones recently were used to spy on Israeli nuclear facilities. Cyberweapons were also used against Saudi oil facilities. The goal: to make sure the west, specifically the United States, knows that Iran does have the tools to strike back. While Iran does not have a world-class military like the United States, it does have the capabilities to cause damage if it wants to. With Iran taking to cyberspace and drones, it shows such technology is not just under the control of the U.S. Iran has been careful, though, not to escalate the conflict. The risk: what if the plan backfires and goes beyond its intended scope?"
Could an Anonymous poster please elaborate on this "the plan," especially its scope and functions. Will it introduce features of "the cloud" or "crowdsourcing?" If so, management likely should be included in any of these preliminary meetings and projections, as "the cloud" and this new "drone launching" technique sound like they're posed to really flip tables in Remote Administration, especially of Mission-Critical facilities. Does this "escalation" refer to a security weakness? We all heard that "the cloud" made everything automatically secure.
-Mgmt
They have internet access and the ability to remote control aircraft (I'm assuming that they're speaking of aircraft, I didn't rtfa :p), who doesn't have these, it's fucking 2012.
What exactly is the point of this story? Is the subbie afraid of Iran or what? Since the legitimate government of Iran was overthrown and the current cycle of extremist leaders/newly rich plutocrats was engineered by the US and UK in Operation Ajax not so long ago, I can't really find it in me to blame Iran for wanting to maintain some sort of functional military parity with the US.
There is no chance that Iran will ever invade the US, or even engineer a 9-11 style attack. There is every chance that Iran will upset the balance of power in the Middle East, which is what the ageing cold warriors still battling Russia and now China in their own minds truly fear.
My advice would be to leave Iran well enough alone. Once the threat of outside invasion recedes, the population will rise up and overthrow the extremists, as they have already made moves to do. Of course this means leaving a power vacuum for Russia or China to step into, according to some, so the US will never allow it.
This isn't an anti-US comment, this is an anti US politicians and foreign policy comment.
Most countries have been slow to develop drones and medium-range cruise missiles. The combination of a German V-1 design and a smartphone is enough to make a cruise missile that can hit a target. (The original V-1 could not reliably hit a target smaller than the entire city of London. If it had been able to hit air bases, the Battle of Britain might have come out differently.)
A better launch system than the V-1's long fixed ramp with pusher cylinder would be needed, but a RATO bottle or a set of wheels discarded at launch would work.
Sounds like what the summary said:
If you want to show how you are as good or better than everyone else, do something useful. War is old hat. Just be better at everything than everyone else and give them the middle finger when you succeed! It is a good idea
Say what you will about the... er... 'afterlife optimized' strategy of some of the Iranian hardliners, it seems clear enough that they've got policy people available who aren't stupid.
The 'cyber war' stuff? It's pretty clear from some of the cool anti-PLC goodies in the wild that that has already been declared, and it is also clear(from years of banal criminal activity driven mostly by the fact that it's easy and profitable) that US financial interests are dubiously secure. Plus, since they are neither military nor civilian-in-a-bleeding-heart-way(like medical equipment or electrical/water/sewer infrastructure) they can do all the attacking they want and there will be no PR gain for the US beyond the usual probably-inflated-and-so-large-as-to-be-basically-meaningless 'damage' numbers that get trotted out after every hacker attack.
Drones? If you are playing catch-up, emphasize bang-for-buck(hobbyists aren't building the really good stuff; but drones are cheap even by the standards of obsolete MIGs if you aren't paying General Dynamics to build them) with the occasional Assymetry Surprise(like that alleged-GPS-spoof drone capture a while back) to keep the enemy jumpy.
So, "the west" is now the US? Cause I don't see anyone else carrying out cyber attacks, drone attacks or targeted assasinations in Iran.
I'd be *really* surprised if Iran didn't have competitions among students, trying to find hot programmers to attack Israeli military and nuclear sites' software.
Assuming that there's idiots there, just like here, who don't know that for some things, an air gap between the controls and the 'Net....
And depending on how true it is that they managed to break the control of that US drone....
mark
I think the point is more to demonstrate that they won't stand meekly by and wait for Israel to finish the Palestinian pogroms and start herding Iranians into ghettos.
It wasn't intended as a message to the west. It was a message to the middle east and, more importantly, the Iranian people. The drone was not a threat. If it was a threat it would have been shot down a lot earlier. It got 20 minutes only because Israel didn't want to shoot the thing down over a populated area -- or Gaza which would have the Palis in a hissy fit if, god forbid, the wreckage landed on a school or something. Had the drone been an actual threat you can guarantee it would have never entered Israeli airspace. It was not a "stealth drone" and Israel has radar.
you have to wonder how we go to this situation.
Can't right now, there's a burn ban in my county. :) :)
It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.
Al Qaeda is not operating as isolated as the Arab world would like, they have powerful sympathizers. And then 9/11 happened and OOPS, we funded the protesters but we did not expect them to succeed.
The same happened with the US and Cuba. Oops, we funded dissidents but they did WHAT? Invade? No way, no support. They were supposed to be a nuisance to our enemy, not trigger WW3. Same thing with assanition of Kennedy, it don't matter if the CIA/FBI did or did not do it, the real shocker (if the American public had a brain) should have been that there were any plans at all. And when the bullet has been fired it is to late to consider whether talks of firing that bullet were just talk or concrete plans.
The bay of pigs was a disaster as the Cubans cleaned them up and Al Qaeda is a shadow of its former self. Presumably those who had entertained plans to kill the president were also dealt with, just in case anyone would ever think that again.
The leadership in Iran know damn well that there is a line between the US basically ignoring them and blowing them from the map. They have been shown enough examples. It ain't nice perhaps but that is the real world. Same with Russian support for Iran btw, Russians like Iran just as long as they are more a nuisance to US then they are to Russia. Iran starts to to openly interfere with Russian interests (look at russia's borders, religion in tjetnia and of high number of terrorist attacks in moskou itself) and that blocking vote will soon disappear. Same with China. It is a balance game. Annoy the US but don't piss them off and if Israel spanks your ass once again (It is widely believed Iran supported what is now north-sudan and Israel south-sudan. South-sudan won, suprise suprise and north-sudan lost all world support for being nasty people), we most certainly are not going to do anything except try to learn how they did it and snicker a bit.
You might note that will all the support Iran has given Hezbollah and Syria, it hasn't actually given either of these group any useful fighting capability? Missiles that don't hit shit and drones that get shot down with ease and never enough money to get the economy going.
This is not the cold war continued, it is still the same cold war. It never went away. And the cold war has the same rules, cause a hassle, cause trouble but do NOT start WW3. If Iran is smart, they know this. If not... they might invade a small nation and think that is going to be ignored like the killing of their own people was... (if you don't get the iraq reference, I feel sorry for you)
Because if they don't... Russia and China loose nothing by seeing some Muslims turned into so much glass and ashes, they both get their own Muslims populations that could do with a message and their are always other proxies through which to keep the their opponents occupied. Or do you think Russia/China really cares about how many civilians are killed in a drone strike in Afghanistan? Russia doesn't like the afghans at all and China just wants to know how they can do the same in Tibet and get away with it) It ain't just the west that wants WW3, the super powers all know that is in nobody elses interest, they just skirmish a bit with the third world nations to keep their reflexes sharp.
Cold war is a game of risk were the players know the only winning game is not to play but their fingers itch. And Iran is NOT a player, it is at best a play piece that might be about to make a very stupid attempt at Independence and find out what happens to play pieces that move on their own.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
These ridiculous scare-mongering articles about a US/Israel enemy de jour appearing on /.'s frontpage are really becoming tiresome.
Look at the number of Iranian people who are students here. I can count 14 in the small satellite grad school where I am. I find it odd that we have no relations with Iran yet their people can come here freely. If send people there they are often arrested on some charge. Could it be that some of these students are passing info to the government of Iran? Maybe, maybe not. All 14 are in the engineering department.
WSJ reports:
But not if it's STUXNET or FLAME, right?
Similarly, the media would have us believe that if a country in the Middle East refused to sign the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty, invaded neighboring countries, ignored condemnation from the UN Security Council of its actions, and repressed its people into poverty and apartheid, while also developing a nuclear weapons program, that the USG should intervene militarily to take out its nuclear program and probably impose new leadership.
But not if it's Israel, right?
But, it's OK, because Iran has such an aggressive history that it's worth the US getting into a war with Russia over. In fact, if the USG needs to kill half a million Iranian children to impose its will, that's just breaking a few eggs, right?
After all, there is no higher concern that the US Petrodollar, right?
The fellow who wrote the Declaration of Independence and our third President described the appropriate role of the United States in the world as:
But whose interests does that serve, really?
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
"cut out their terror"? Or stop defending their homes from the relentless expansion of Israeli lebensraum?
Obesity is not exactly a sign of prosperity. The fattest segment of the American population is also the poorest.
We should just let a crappy cardboard drone running unpatched Windows 95 'fall into their hands' so they can waste their time studying and reverse engineering our implementation of the BSOD.
If you define 1953 as not so long ago you must be in it for the long run. Waiting for the return of Zoroaster?
In 1953 we overthrew their democratic government, and then for 26 years we sponsored a puppet government that tortured and killed dissidents. A direct result of that radicalization and suppression is the Islamic Revolution of 1979. Our further interference by arranging loans for Saddam Hussein to punish them with a war cost the lives of one million people, including those who died in the gas attacks at Halabja, in the Iran-Iraq War. That ended in 1988.
This is the problem with stupid, simplistic understandings of history. It has been a policy of the United States for over a century to control and occupy the Middle East with extreme forms of violence that have killed millions, and sanctions that have killed hundreds of thousands more. There is no difference between us and the methods of other colonial powers, except that instead of pretending that natives are savages that are not worthy of consideration, we are pretending that Arabs and Iranians are savages that are not worthy of consideration. We kill them, take control of their oil, and they should just learn to accept that their natural resources may be under their feet, but God has intended them to belong to us as veto power against our enemies, or just so we can burn through it ourselves.
The historical evidence for those facts is overwhelming, and if you think you disagree with the hypothesis of American colonialism, you are either innocently or willfully ignorant.
As proof of this truism, without looking it up, name one nation that does not have a United States military presence inside of their national border, or inside of a neighboring nation. The same cannot be said for any other nation because the fact is and remains that we are a colonial power. That doesn't make us evil because we are America, but it does make us evil because we are an empire. Telling people how to live without giving them the opportunity to decide for themselves is simple tyranny, and it's wrong. It always has been, and it always will be, and there is never a legitimate principled foundation for taking away someone's right to choose their own path, especially when we take that right away from entire nations.
First, there is ZERO evidence presented so far that Iran had anything to do with any cyberattacks on anyone.
Anyone in infosec knows how hard it is to attribute a given attack on a given party. There are just too many ways to fake an attack's origin. And the US government has not provided any direct evidence of Iranian involvement.
It's on a par with the ridiculous "Saudi ambassador assassination" claim. The lunatic involved in that case plead guilty, but there is still ZERO evidence that it had anything to do with the Iranian government, and far more likely had to do with the anti-Iranian terrorist group, the M.E.K., which the US, in its infinite wisdom, just took off the terrorist list thanks to "material support" from a number of US politicians - in violation of US anti-terrorist statutes prohibiting such activities.
As for the drone, it was Hizballah who ran the drone into Israel, not Iran. Iran may have supplied the drone, but that's no surprise. Iran has been supplying Hizballah with technology for some time. And deservedly so. Hizballah is the only thing that has kept Israel out of Lebanon for the last decade. Israel tried to destroy Lebanon in 2006, but failed miserably. It will try again. In fact that is the reason for the Syrian crisis - to degrade Syria's military sufficiently to allow Israel to cross into Syrian territory to attack Hizballah in the Bekaa Valley.
Apparently the conventional wisdom is that the US is allowed to attack anyone, anywhere, any time, with any means - but even the hint of retaliation is grounds for being declared a "terrorist" and then being either droned to death or outright invaded.
Finally, I will repeat the FACTS about Iran's nuclear energy program:
1) There is ZERO evidence that Iran has a nuclear weapons program. This is agreed on by both all 16 US intelligence agencies AND Israel's intelligence agencies (Netanyahu and Obama notwithstanding.) And for the SEVENTY PERCENT of the US population who thinks Iran already HAS nuclear weapons - well, intelligence was never the US electorate's strong suit...
2) There is ZERO evidence that Iran ever HAD a nuclear weapons program, except as the DIA says a likely "feasibility study" back when Iran was afraid Saddam had such a program. And Iran ended that program, quite logically, when the US overthrew Saddam and handed Iran major influence in Iraq.
3) Iran has no strategic or tactical need for nuclear weapons, and couldn't use them as a deterrent against either the US or Israel if it had them. And the Iranians know this and have said so repeatedly.
4) Iran has never threatened to "wipe Israel off the map", no matter how many times you've read that alleged "fact" in the media.
5) Iran's military posture is strictly defensive. They rely on "soft power" projection for influence in the region, including supporting Shia communities in Lebanon and the GCC, and seek good relations with all the countries in the region (except Israel, of course.) They haven't attacked anyone in hundreds of years. Israel has attacked someone in every decade since the 1940's. The US - don't even ask...
6) Israel is the only country in the Middle East with nuclear weapons, has not joined the NPT, refuses to allow its nuclear capabilities to be monitored, and has threatened to use nuclear weapons on its neighbors in the past. It is the only country with a nuclear second strike capability and the ability to threaten countries outside the region with nuclear weapons via its submarine fleet. In fact, it has been suggested that the sole reason for Israel to have nuclear weapons - an unnecessary addition to its conventional military capability compared to the nations on its borders - is to be able to threaten the WEST should the need arise - which it did in 1973 when it threatened to nuke the Aswan Dam if the US did not re-supply it during the 1973 war. Hint: The US caved.
7) The bottom line: Iran is not toeing the US line and interferes with Israel's ability to gobble up countries on its borders i
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
"With Iran taking to cyberspace and drones, it shows such technology is not just under the control of the U.S."
Well....lets see....
Remote controlled devices....
Air planes.
rockets
explosives
guidance systems for rockets....
No shit sherlock. Since the very existence of each of these technologies, with, potentially the limited and short term exception of "air planes" right after their invention, the US has NEVER held exclusive control of any of them.
It should be no shock whatsoever that these technologies can be combined by others.
Its funny, I was talking with an Iranian friend about our foriegn policy and Iran. He isn't someone you would EVER expect to talk about fondness for teh Ayatolla (he isn't even really a muslim as far as I can tell).... but he does. I finally hit on why: I pointed out that if the US were smart, and really disliked the people in power in Iran, they would stop opposing them, and lift all sanctions, and let the Iranian people take care of the problem.... and he lit up....
"You know you are right, I hate those towel heads (yes, he, a born and raised Iranian called them towel heads), I hate having to support them, but when all I hear, day after day, is 'War with Iran' and 'More sanctions' that hurt my people, it pisses me off".
No shit, I would feel the same way.
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
When has Israel ever threatened it's enemies with nuclear weapons? Defamation much?
So are we seriously comparing DDOS attacks that any fifteen year old with five minutes and an internet connection can do to Stuxnet, Flame, Duqu, Gauss, and the litany of Isramerica's cyber war arsenal that we haven't even discovered yet? So they can use drones to spy on alleged Israeli nuclear facilities. So what? They wouldn't have drones at all if America didn't accidentally give them one. Point is: To win this, you need brain power. Ever since the Iatolas took power, driving everyone with half a brain into hiding, or exile, they don't have a leg to stand on as far as a "cyber war" goes. And I think it's clear that they understand how paltry their attempts have been.
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What's the point of this story? Rhetorical question, it's blatantly obvious and not sure what makes this newsworthy? The things listed as not being only under U.S. control are things that pretty much every single country in the entire world has within it's reach if it wanted. Try harder Iran.
even more twisted:
how do you threaten someone with something you don't admit having?
There is no way I believe that.
It's not that I think Iran is not capable of it, it's just that the spotlight is on them and everybody knows (including Iran), that Obama and Israel want to attack them. The very LAST thing Iran is going to do is launch some kind of cyber attack on us which would only given an excuse to attack them.
If you really believe Iran is doing that, then I suggest you locate some members of a gang in your city, and go punch them in the nose, and see how they respond. If your smart enough not to do that, don't you think Iran is smart enough to avoid doing something so stupid?
You need to put yourselves in their shoes, and realize that it's all propaganda by Obama. Use your head folks. be smarter than that.
This is actually true, but what you neglect to mention is that "removing from the page of time" is best translated as an expression as "wipe off the map". That being said, since that time, Iran has indeed repeated the claim in english (a billboard outside a barracks of the Revolutionary Guard Corps, for example). If it's a mistranslation, it's a mistranslation they apparently agree with. In addition, Khamenie said this year that Israel was a "cancer" that would be "cut out". Seems to me that's a bit harsher than the "off the map" quote and nobody is arguing about it's translation.
If by "Shia communitites" you mean Hezbollah, then yes, they support them -- and I would hardly call their actions defensive at all as even a cursory search could point out, not would I claim they "haven't attacked anybody in years". Iran is a state sponsor of terror too chicken shit to take direct action but perfecly happy to reign terror down on Jews and Americans worldwide through it's many proxies.
What Israel actually said was that yes, they're not working on a bomb, but they'e working on the parts and once they have those parts in a fortified bunker can likely put one together in short notice. You can't take the former part of that sentence and pretend the latter is not attached.
Did the US government really think that other nations would not simply build their own drones in response to our constant incursions into their sovereignty? Seems to me that whatever opportunity we had in being "first to market" is now over and the drone wars have just begun in earnest.
Seriously, did an Iranian government shill write this? This reads like it was written by their internal propaganda department. I kept waiting for 'death to Jews' to appear in the article.
Iran is out of control and by a very large margin the biggest impediment to peace in the mid-east. Their government is evil, support terrorism as a matter of policy and is responsibly for more instability in the middle east than any other government is a very long time.
They choose to pursue nuclear weapons at the expense of their own citizens. If your a citizen of Iran you live in a constant state of fear of running afoul of the police state. People are tortured and murdered as a matter of routine course. If you live outside of Iran you have to worry about Iranian terrorist who will kill without hesitation.
While Iran uses Israel as a convenient scapegoat, the reality is they do far more harm to the Muslim citizen. All you have to do is look at Syria to see the results of Iranian influence. Declaring war on your own people, want to slaughter your civilians without pesky influence? Don't worry, Iran will have your back!
China and Iran are buddies and China is great at copying stuff and doesn't really like the west too much. It would not surprise me at all to see that China had a hand in helping Iran copy technologies in exchange for gaining access to the downed drone or malware infected computers
Truth doesn't matter to anti-Semites. There is a big difference between legitimate criticism of Israeli policies and making stuff up because you hate Jews so much that the truth doesn't matter. There is no other motivation to irrationally attack Israel by lying like that than antisemitism.
I'd like to see much, much more "cyberwar" because we all know it's the only way to coerce security measures by otherwise lazy entities.
If leaving ones proverbial front door unlocked automatically resulted in a kick in the nuts, more doors would be secured.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
The risk: what if the plan backfires and goes beyond its intended scope?
Then the US kill a whole bunch of people, pollute their backyard, waste a trillion+ in some meaningless war and make the rest of the arab world / oil holding countries richer by increasing the oil price. Oh, and kill the little economic recovery there is.
War inc.
Iran would lose any confrontation with Isreal regardless of any US involvement. Iran may bluster about having 200K missile but unless they have the same number of launch platforms they certainly couldn't use the quantity of missiles.
Isreal has been at Defcon 4 for 40+ years and are not known to be timid when the bullets and bombs start flying. Iran on the other hand vastly overstates their war fighting assets and rely on incendiary propaganda from their government and military leaders.The middle eastern countries are terrified of Isreal when it comes to open warfare. They are lucky the US is in the position to restrain Israel's military ambitions. Isreal could depopulate Gaza and the West Bank and there is not a single country in the world who would do anything other than pass a non-binding UN statement.
I am not Jewish and really don't care about Isreal or any of the other countries in that region. However, the Arabs launched wars in 1948, 1967, and 1973 and got their asses handed to them. There are no "do overs" just because you want a second shot.
Always seem like at least the katest mess in the arab world is done by the US.
But then they have to "fix it" again when things doesn't match their interests any longer.
But it's people on a ship going with help for Gaza who are claimed to be "terrorists."
and israelis took the land from palestinians first. with international support, mostly. and they both are genetically very close, so it's somewhat similar if bavarians would decide that saxons are their worst enemies :)
oh, the great humankind.
Rich
Perhaps you can explain then, if it was such a conspiracy, how the US managed to orchestrate the invasion
What kind of thinking person asks how the world's largest military power "managed" to "orchestrate" the invasion? It's what we do. We spend more than the rest of the world combined every single year on our military. So why are you asking how we managed to militarily overpower a nation with 30 million people that has been subject to sanctions and bombings from 1991 until our invasion in 2003?
and create a government without managing to get a simple law passed
A law that basically states that Iraq's resources are owned by foreign powers isn't a simple law. It's a declaration of ownership. Unsurprisingly, there was huge opposition to the law, and since the opposition was from real Iraqis and not puppets like Chalabi, the idea that Iraqis own Iraqi oil prevailed. Do not give credit to the United States government for their idiocy. Give credit to the Iraqis who had the fortitude to say no to an occupying power.
Perhaps you can explain how this law would have helped give "Western" nations an advantage over other countries.
It's still about oil in Iraq
In essence, the Bush Administration invaded to overturn the Iraqi Constitution, which states that Iraqis own Iraqi oil. They failed at the second part of their plan.
On a larger note, if you want to understand geopolitics, you're going to have to read and think with some regularity in order to understand what's going on in the world. Reading US centric newspapers to understand our role in the world is like reading Pravda in order to understand Russia's role in the world. It's a helpful input, but often has nothing to do with reality.
That's just laughable. Every goddamn nation in the world knows that Israel has nukes.
Incoming U.S. Defense Secretary tells Senate panel Israel has nuclear weapons
Your comments paint a picture of Israel as being the sole the victims here and only the Palestinians being the unreasonable actors. That is a false characterization of the situation as well.
http://nationalinterest.org/commentary/the-triumph-greater-israel-7438
the author of that piece lays out the point more succinctly than I could, that point being: Yes, Israel were invaded multiple times. Yes certain Palestinians leaders and groups such as Hamas may have spurned opportunities to recitify their peoples plight. But your characterization of Israeli leaders and actors as being only the group in this dilemma who are reasonable and therefore justified in their actions is flawed and shows a certain bias. Palestinians may not be be Israeli citizens but they are living in what can only be called bantustans. The Israelis control the movement of Palestinians in and out of the 'bantustan' regions. They control the borders, hell the West Bank is under full Israeli military control. That is why the word apartheid comes up in these discussions.
As to your assertion that Arab Israelis have the same rights Jewish Israelis I present the following links to convey the fact that they are discriminated against in practice. Look at the human rights report from the state department and do a search with the keyword "arab". Yes Arabs have de jure the same rights, but according to that document and other sources you are welcome to google for, discrimination happens.
http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt/2010/nea/154463.htm
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2012/05/oh-jerusalem.html
The truth of the matter is both sides have not acted in good faith on numerous occasions because they seek the maximum gain for their own side. They, or rather their leaders, have demonstrated time and time again that they don't want compromise. With this being the case, America's blind, unyielding support to Israel is dangerous in terms of harming America's self-interest. Take note of the last Presidential debate: both Romney and Obama made great effort to present their pro-Israel stance. Obama kept calling Israel "America's true friend". Yet Israel's past actions vis a vis Palestinians and vis a vis Iran have not been in America's self-interest and in actual fact Netanyahu's treatment of America and it's government has been disrespectful and insulting at times. He and his staunch supporters treat America like a retard that can swayed to do Israel's bidding due to the lobbyiing power they have with american elections. Netanyahu himself has been quoted as saying as much. meanwhile the continuing settlement goes on and the palestinian people become more radicalized.
My point? America, just like the EU, will be facing a reckoning soon. The global economy is quite likely facing a coming depression. America's best interests are served by pulling all it's military from the middle east, perhaps even Europe. They should focus on the Pacific. They should stop supporting Saudi Arabia, should only support Israel's right to exist and nothing beyond that. If other countries in the region cannot protect the US embassies from attacks then they should be removed. If the middle east wants implode then so be it. You cannot pick a side in that region of the world because the consequences are highly unpredictable such that they may even prove more disastrous to global interests than if external actors had originally chosen to not get involved in the first place.
Israel will eventually self-implode. The demographics are against them. Their actions are also against their own interests so their demise will also be somewhat self-inflicted. America gains no benefit in supporting them unconditionally, in fact America hastens their demise. There is no such bullshit as a "true friend" in international relations. There are only transactional relationships. The sooner certain officials in government and their supporters realise that, the better off the world will be.
Unlike the US, which is as belligerent as ever.
I read all sorts of sources including AJ. I just don't take it as gospel. My point stands. Even if that law was passed, it would have given "Western" nations no more of an advantage than the Chinese, Russians, and others who ended up getting the contracts. People like you love to go on about "conspriacies" without ever creating a concrete narrative as to how actions actually benefit the supposed conspirator. The net result of the Iraq was has been absolutely horriffic for the US. Our reputation as a nation is smashed to bits. The region has been destabilized. Iraq is soon to become yet another proxy state of Iran. Nobody will every believe us again about WMDs which gives every dictator with the will carte blanche to say "the US is lying again" while rushing unabated to the nuclear finish line. And on top of all of that we didn't even get any of the oil we supposedly did it all for. Jesus. If the conspirators are that incompetent, you really think it's out of the realm of possibility they were actually stupid enough to believe Saddam, suspicious as he was acting, didn't actually have WMDs. It's not like the CIA has a fantastic track record historically on predicting these sorts of things. We've missed the mark on every single nuclear advance of every single enemy without exception. One day there's a test and ... wow ... who saw it coming? Certainly not the CIA. Your really think it's just not possible Iraq is a result of stupidity and not malice? You have a lot more faith in our leadership than I do.
i meant "acting, actually had WMDs"...
That's not the point. The point is that you can't threaten somebody with something you don't even acknowledge you posess! The mere threat would be an admission! It's not fucking rocket science.
How did Isreal become a country the middle eastern countries are terrified of if not by way of US military and financial support? Did Isreal invent nuclear weapons and US fighter jets on their own? For the US to now play good-cop and pretend the moral high ground is a sad joke except there are so meany ready to believe in their propaganda.
No they didn't. That patch of ground has been the home of Jews, Muslims, and Christians for over 2000 years. If the Arabs had 2 brain cells to rub together they would have signed the Balfour Agreement in 1948, carefully marshaled their military resources, and then attacked. Instead they rushed in and told those Arabs living in the line of attack to abandon their homes but plan to return in a week or so after all the Jews were dead. That worked out pretty good for them didn't it? They should have especially been circumspect about trying to attack the Jews in any fashion in 1948. The Jews were in no mood to put up with any shit from anyone at the time since the entire world had turned their back on them during the war. The Arabs repeated the same mistake in 67 and 73. If you go to war and end up losing why should the victor return the spoils of the war? Losers are not entitled to any "do overs" just because they lost.
The Palestinians today cannot even reconcile and organize their own internal governments but for some reason they think they deserve a state. Just what the world needs, another shit hole Arab country looking for handouts while blaming the "west" or anyone else handy for all of their problems. Hopefully the UN will upgrade Palestine's member status so the US automatic defunding law can finally kick in full.
And ponder this: If the Arabs were ever able to militarily defeat the Jews do you honestly believe there would be a single living Jew left in Israel after the war? Would you even care?
It's just plain dumb to say someone is just plain dumb because they aren't fluent in English.
of what our Government is going to do with our freedom over this (supposed) threat?
Be seeing you...
It may not have been a conspiracy, but that is our best hope at finding an explanation on why IRAQ was attacked.
If not so, we'd have to think the USA is out of control like a beheaded chicken running to wherever it happens to go.
I don't know which scenario is worse, but if I think there are demented people with evil intentions at the helm, I can hope they can be overthrown by voters one day and we can make war extinct (war, not armies).
Right now, Iran is being horribly stupid by not understanding that the best defense is political -- they could e.g. buy French reactors and make the US shut up overnight (because no one would believe the French would help Iran become a nuclear power).
I read all sorts of sources including AJ. I just don't take it as gospel. My point stands.
No, it doesn't. Your assertion was that the United States did not invade Iraq for oil, but every single internal document is either aimed at excusing the invasion or at overturning the Iraqi constitution in order to open up their oil market. You are fucking wrong, and you're still wrong, despite your feigned ignorance aimed at winning this argument.
Even if that law was passed, it would have given "Western" nations no more of an advantage than the Chinese, Russians, and others who ended up getting the contracts. People like you love to go on about "conspriacies" without ever creating a concrete narrative as to how actions actually benefit the supposed conspirator. The net result of the Iraq was has been absolutely horriffic for the US. Our reputation as a nation is smashed to bits. The region has been destabilized. Iraq is soon to become yet another proxy state of Iran. Nobody will every believe us again about WMDs which gives every dictator with the will carte blanche to say "the US is lying again" while rushing unabated to the nuclear finish line. And on top of all of that we didn't even get any of the oil we supposedly did it all for. Jesus. If the conspirators are that incompetent, you really think it's out of the realm of possibility they were actually stupid enough to believe Saddam, suspicious as he was acting, didn't actually have WMDs.
Just because the conspiracy failed doesn't mean there wasn't a conspiracy. It would be like claiming that Moscow never had any intention of running things in Czechoslovakia if they were kicked out, or failed it any part of their plans. It's a childish way to escape the truth.
It's not like the CIA has a fantastic track record historically on predicting these sorts of things. We've missed the mark on every single nuclear advance of every single enemy without exception.
Holy fuck, are you actually that misinformed?
Your really think it's just not possible Iraq is a result of stupidity and not malice? You have a lot more faith in our leadership than I do.
It's a combination of hubris, malice, and stupidity. You seem to live in a fantasy world of false dichotomies.
you turned that out as if i had suggested arabs should have annihilated the just-created isreal, or that they should do it now.
i do think the initial "carving" of a state was a fucking mistake. by now it can't be simply undone, so the best i can do is wonder why the people who might be considered the same nation in other circumstances fight so heavily.
Rich
" the USA is out of control like a beheaded chicken running to wherever it happens to go." -- a lot more accurate than you might think. I totally agree on your solution, however. Nuclear, FTW. Thorium should be looked into also.
Actually the US withheld munitions from Israel at the start of the 1967 conflict (when Israel struck first after seeing the Egyptians massing for an attack). This has prompted the Israelis to develop their own arms industry, which is now the most technologically advanced in the World. Talk about "blowback".
Bullshit. You wanna see the real historical facts? How about you see this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7ByJb7QQ9U to get some reality in your thinking.
Then consider why the Israelis treat Gazan's for advanced procedures in Israeli hospitals despite the rockets coming from Gaza to the civilians in Sderot and Ashkelon. There are extremists on both sides (although the Israeli Government deals with Israeli extremists using the courts; compared to Hamas throwing Fatah supporters off buildings [check Youtube for the video]) yet you choose to use a libel of "progrom". See this fellow for why you are completely and utterly wrong and why you are being played for a fool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIesXORjBps
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TA3OzSCdCUk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU9CauJP4Pg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Gzyeo1Z1I4
You think you have a humanitarian conscience and are defending the poor Palestinians but thanks to some slick propaganda you have the aggressor backwards and are defending an intolerant, fascist, theocratic movement (Hamas). I bet you would like to see the Palestinian "One State" solution come to pass where they push every last Jew (and even the bulk of Israelis who are effectively modern and secular) into the sea. Your morality is backwards and I hope you take the time to examine the *historical* facts to get it all sorted out. I'm not anti-Palestinian by any means (having been there), nor anti-Israeli - but I do recognize your statements and woefully ignorant about the historical and contemporary facts on the ground. You are looking at the situation by squinting your eyes to fit your preconception - open your eyes and examine the object facts where they can be found.
Oh yeah, "poor Palestinians". How come they can afford to buy iPhones for twice the normal price yet it is not even available in Israeli? Citation: http://www.jpost.com/Sci-Tech/Article.aspx?id=287940 Simply put, you have been suckered to believing their propaganda "victim" line. Sucker.
Just a note. Oil wouldn't go up for long because Iran doesn't sell much of it's oil. Most of fit has been embargoed for the last year or two and it's output has been restricted for a while.
If we went to war with Iran, I project the price of oil actually dropping because investors know the eventuality would be the oil being sold in larger quantities then it is now.
However, I don't see the US or any western nation going into Iran. I think it would eventually happen that a neighboring state would invade and western nations would become allies in aid. Iran is a more complicated mess then Iraq or Afghanistan. We missed opportunities to support a revolt that apparently was happening without any western instigation. The public of Iran would likely not take to us deposing their government.
well you got a one sided answer.
The lion share of conflicts across the middle east and northern Africa can be laid at the feet of the English and the French. The English handed out fiefdoms to the Arab elite to secure their access to their oil. Today people assert that the US was responsible for the Iranian change of government in 1953 but it was the Iranians themselves who enacted the change of government in the country. Nobody had a gun pointed at their heads. And it was not the US who sent warships to block Iranian from exporting their oil. No country is happy when their international assets are nationalised and that was exactly what Iran was planning at the time. The US had very little invested in Iran at the time and were more worried about the Korean war and Russian expansion at the time to really care.
People tend to assume that the US military is as lethal and over bearing as it is today and can dictate terms but that is really not the case today.
Every international border in the world is drawn in blood. Sometimes the borders have been re-drawn more than once requiring even more blood.I think Iran and the other middle eastern countries would be in much better position if the Ayatollahs and religious extremists had not used religious dogma as the basis of administering the state.
The US or any other country should not get involved in either supporting or vilifying the Iranian government. Just ignore them and treat them as a non-entity when it comes to any international cooperation. I don't believe a military solution is warranted unless the Iranian government does something stupid such as attempting to close the Hormuz strait or targeting any US interests using their 3rd party proxies. It's up to the Iranians themselves to forge their own destiny but so far their efforts have been weak and ineffective. The last time the Iranian public got serious about instituting governmental changes was in 1979 but the naive students and short sighted progressives were marginalized by the islamist with little trouble. The protesters deserve the government they got because they did not bother to think ahead or have a plan for a new government framework after their glorious revolution. Storming the barricades might be exciting and look impressive on TV but you are not going to create a viable government once the riots burn out. The hardline Islamists played the protesters for fools in 1979. While the protesters were busy holding US hostages and spouting clever slogans the Islamists were actually organizing themselves to take over the government. If the Iranian public wants a change in government they will have to accept that people will die and sacrifices will need to be endured. The general public vastly outnumbers the government soldiers and civilian militias but the majority never use this advantage to institute any changes. People go on about Muslim extremists being a tiny minority within the Muslim community so why don't these non-violent Muslims actually make an attempt to nullify the violent extremists in their midst? If they don't try to stand up to the minority damaging the entire Muslim faith then don't expect any sympathy, understanding, or help from anyone.
... their internet access.
They must buy their routers somewhere?
Just ignore them and treat them as a non-entity when it comes to any international cooperation.
Incorrect. Your approach would work if Iranians kept to themselves. They don't. They created and arm Hezbollah in Lebanon, permanently distabilising that state and cotinually threatening Israeli civilians. They used to support the terrorist organuisation Hamas (although there has been a falling out recently). Iran infiltrated Iraq during the outsting of Saddam and introduced shaped penetrator weapons for killing US troops. They supported Moqtada Al Sadr's Mahdi Army causing chaos in Iraq. They supply and fund Bashir Al Assad's brutal regime killing over 30,000 people in Syria. They provide rockets and drones to Hezbollah, used to start the 2006 war and recently flying a drone into Israel towards the reactor at Dimona. The Iranian Quds Force has been caught performing or training terrorist acts against Israeli civilians in Bulgaria, Georgia, India, Argentina, and Thailand (where the Iranian cell were caught). Oh yeah, and the pronouncements from time to time where officials state that Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth.
Once Iran gets a nuke it won't get better (and make no mistake, despite their obfuscation all the evidence points for them working toward a capability for a weapon, and the times that Ahmadinejad and the generals slip up and actually say so in public [despite it supposed to be a secret]). Once Iran has a nuke it will almost certainly invade and annex Bahrain and several islands in the straight of Hormuz. There will be a nuclear arms in the Arabian/Persian Gulf as Saudi Arabia, the UA, Kuwait etc all get nukes so they don't share the same fate. Letting Iran get nukes is far far worse than stopping them (eg. via repeated and thorough air strikes on their production facilities).
The last time the Iranian public got serious about instituting governmental changes was in 1979
Incorrect, the public wanted a change in 2009 with the Green Revolution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%932010_Iranian_election_protests This was brutally (and that word is both accurate and not used lightly here) suppressed by the fascist religious government and their Basiji thugs. Leading protest organizers were not tried and thrown in jail, they were executed for "waging war against God". Please check your facts before you post on Slashdot in defence of the indefensible Iranian religio-fascist state.
The hardline Islamists played the protesters for fools in 1979. While the protesters were busy holding US hostages and spouting clever slogans the Islamists were actually organizing themselves to take over the government.
Correct. The Iranian popular revolution was usurped by a theocratic "counter-revolution". Ordinary Iranians I meet and hang out with love their country and are proud of its history. They absolutely *hate* their government but have no way to get them out of office (the elections are not democratic, free or fair) and because the goverment believes they are on a mission from god they believe they have the right to use unlimited force on their civilians (and the civilians of other countries).
People go on about Muslim extremists being a tiny minority within the Muslim community so why don't these non-violent Muslims actually make an attempt to nullify the violent extremists in their midst? If they don't try to stand up to the minority damaging the entire Muslim faith then don't expect any sympathy, understanding, or help from anyone.
The Muslims that do stand up are killed for not being "muslim enough". You simply can't appease muslim extremists (eg. wahhabis and salafis). There is no concession we can make that will stop their violence. They will always seek to impose islam and sharia around the globe. Hence they must be resisted and, more importantly, de
...about the time some pro-Israelian fuck came and threw the anti-semite card...
ranma - girl?
USA violence validates & welcomes more violence globally.
After two decades of criminal assaults on my person by fbi/cia assassins, here is the succinctly written culmination of my reports to the global population:
To be clear, the United States of America is unworthy of the service of any human being in any capacity because the fbi/cia/dod, etc., have violently overthrown the government here by a silent coup (involving covert torture, forced suicide,murder) and this corrupt nation in its efforts to defend is also seen globally as a murderous fraud and a macabre 'agent of evil' on the world.
COLLAPSE OF CONSTITUTIONAL GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
http://lissakr11humanelife.wordpress.com/2012/09/08/collapse-of-the-constitutional-government-of-the-united-states-of-america-by-geral-sosbee/
FBI/CIA ARE TERRORISTS
http://lissakr11humanelife.wordpress.com/2012/11/01/fbi-cia-are-terrorist-by-gerel-sosbee-validated-american-patriot-whistleblower/