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Iran's High Tech Copycat War Against the West: Drones and Cyberwar
An anonymous reader writes "Iran and its nuclear program seem to be getting all the headlines. Yet, Iran has found a way to respond to western cyber attacks such as Stuxnet, drone surveillance and targeted assassinations; they've decided to respond in kind. Iran has launched its own cyber attacks on U.S. banks via denial-of-service attacks. Iranian drones recently were used to spy on Israeli nuclear facilities. Cyberweapons were also used against Saudi oil facilities. The goal: to make sure the west, specifically the United States, knows that Iran does have the tools to strike back. While Iran does not have a world-class military like the United States, it does have the capabilities to cause damage if it wants to. With Iran taking to cyberspace and drones, it shows such technology is not just under the control of the U.S. Iran has been careful, though, not to escalate the conflict. The risk: what if the plan backfires and goes beyond its intended scope?"
What exactly is the point of this story? Is the subbie afraid of Iran or what? Since the legitimate government of Iran was overthrown and the current cycle of extremist leaders/newly rich plutocrats was engineered by the US and UK in Operation Ajax not so long ago, I can't really find it in me to blame Iran for wanting to maintain some sort of functional military parity with the US.
There is no chance that Iran will ever invade the US, or even engineer a 9-11 style attack. There is every chance that Iran will upset the balance of power in the Middle East, which is what the ageing cold warriors still battling Russia and now China in their own minds truly fear.
My advice would be to leave Iran well enough alone. Once the threat of outside invasion recedes, the population will rise up and overthrow the extremists, as they have already made moves to do. Of course this means leaving a power vacuum for Russia or China to step into, according to some, so the US will never allow it.
This isn't an anti-US comment, this is an anti US politicians and foreign policy comment.
The ability to remote control aircraft from non-trivial distances and keep them out of "pool-skimmer range" of the target under surveillance while returning useful intelligence is somewhat noteworthy.
If you want to show how you are as good or better than everyone else, do something useful. War is old hat. Just be better at everything than everyone else and give them the middle finger when you succeed! It is a good idea
Say what you will about the... er... 'afterlife optimized' strategy of some of the Iranian hardliners, it seems clear enough that they've got policy people available who aren't stupid.
The 'cyber war' stuff? It's pretty clear from some of the cool anti-PLC goodies in the wild that that has already been declared, and it is also clear(from years of banal criminal activity driven mostly by the fact that it's easy and profitable) that US financial interests are dubiously secure. Plus, since they are neither military nor civilian-in-a-bleeding-heart-way(like medical equipment or electrical/water/sewer infrastructure) they can do all the attacking they want and there will be no PR gain for the US beyond the usual probably-inflated-and-so-large-as-to-be-basically-meaningless 'damage' numbers that get trotted out after every hacker attack.
Drones? If you are playing catch-up, emphasize bang-for-buck(hobbyists aren't building the really good stuff; but drones are cheap even by the standards of obsolete MIGs if you aren't paying General Dynamics to build them) with the occasional Assymetry Surprise(like that alleged-GPS-spoof drone capture a while back) to keep the enemy jumpy.
So, "the west" is now the US? Cause I don't see anyone else carrying out cyber attacks, drone attacks or targeted assasinations in Iran.
I'd be *really* surprised if Iran didn't have competitions among students, trying to find hot programmers to attack Israeli military and nuclear sites' software.
Assuming that there's idiots there, just like here, who don't know that for some things, an air gap between the controls and the 'Net....
And depending on how true it is that they managed to break the control of that US drone....
mark
I think the point is more to demonstrate that they won't stand meekly by and wait for Israel to finish the Palestinian pogroms and start herding Iranians into ghettos.
It wasn't intended as a message to the west. It was a message to the middle east and, more importantly, the Iranian people. The drone was not a threat. If it was a threat it would have been shot down a lot earlier. It got 20 minutes only because Israel didn't want to shoot the thing down over a populated area -- or Gaza which would have the Palis in a hissy fit if, god forbid, the wreckage landed on a school or something. Had the drone been an actual threat you can guarantee it would have never entered Israeli airspace. It was not a "stealth drone" and Israel has radar.
Can't right now, there's a burn ban in my county. :) :)
It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.
Al Qaeda is not operating as isolated as the Arab world would like, they have powerful sympathizers. And then 9/11 happened and OOPS, we funded the protesters but we did not expect them to succeed.
The same happened with the US and Cuba. Oops, we funded dissidents but they did WHAT? Invade? No way, no support. They were supposed to be a nuisance to our enemy, not trigger WW3. Same thing with assanition of Kennedy, it don't matter if the CIA/FBI did or did not do it, the real shocker (if the American public had a brain) should have been that there were any plans at all. And when the bullet has been fired it is to late to consider whether talks of firing that bullet were just talk or concrete plans.
The bay of pigs was a disaster as the Cubans cleaned them up and Al Qaeda is a shadow of its former self. Presumably those who had entertained plans to kill the president were also dealt with, just in case anyone would ever think that again.
The leadership in Iran know damn well that there is a line between the US basically ignoring them and blowing them from the map. They have been shown enough examples. It ain't nice perhaps but that is the real world. Same with Russian support for Iran btw, Russians like Iran just as long as they are more a nuisance to US then they are to Russia. Iran starts to to openly interfere with Russian interests (look at russia's borders, religion in tjetnia and of high number of terrorist attacks in moskou itself) and that blocking vote will soon disappear. Same with China. It is a balance game. Annoy the US but don't piss them off and if Israel spanks your ass once again (It is widely believed Iran supported what is now north-sudan and Israel south-sudan. South-sudan won, suprise suprise and north-sudan lost all world support for being nasty people), we most certainly are not going to do anything except try to learn how they did it and snicker a bit.
You might note that will all the support Iran has given Hezbollah and Syria, it hasn't actually given either of these group any useful fighting capability? Missiles that don't hit shit and drones that get shot down with ease and never enough money to get the economy going.
This is not the cold war continued, it is still the same cold war. It never went away. And the cold war has the same rules, cause a hassle, cause trouble but do NOT start WW3. If Iran is smart, they know this. If not... they might invade a small nation and think that is going to be ignored like the killing of their own people was... (if you don't get the iraq reference, I feel sorry for you)
Because if they don't... Russia and China loose nothing by seeing some Muslims turned into so much glass and ashes, they both get their own Muslims populations that could do with a message and their are always other proxies through which to keep the their opponents occupied. Or do you think Russia/China really cares about how many civilians are killed in a drone strike in Afghanistan? Russia doesn't like the afghans at all and China just wants to know how they can do the same in Tibet and get away with it) It ain't just the west that wants WW3, the super powers all know that is in nobody elses interest, they just skirmish a bit with the third world nations to keep their reflexes sharp.
Cold war is a game of risk were the players know the only winning game is not to play but their fingers itch. And Iran is NOT a player, it is at best a play piece that might be about to make a very stupid attempt at Independence and find out what happens to play pieces that move on their own.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
These ridiculous scare-mongering articles about a US/Israel enemy de jour appearing on /.'s frontpage are really becoming tiresome.
Look at the number of Iranian people who are students here. I can count 14 in the small satellite grad school where I am. I find it odd that we have no relations with Iran yet their people can come here freely. If send people there they are often arrested on some charge. Could it be that some of these students are passing info to the government of Iran? Maybe, maybe not. All 14 are in the engineering department.
WSJ reports:
But not if it's STUXNET or FLAME, right?
Similarly, the media would have us believe that if a country in the Middle East refused to sign the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty, invaded neighboring countries, ignored condemnation from the UN Security Council of its actions, and repressed its people into poverty and apartheid, while also developing a nuclear weapons program, that the USG should intervene militarily to take out its nuclear program and probably impose new leadership.
But not if it's Israel, right?
But, it's OK, because Iran has such an aggressive history that it's worth the US getting into a war with Russia over. In fact, if the USG needs to kill half a million Iranian children to impose its will, that's just breaking a few eggs, right?
After all, there is no higher concern that the US Petrodollar, right?
The fellow who wrote the Declaration of Independence and our third President described the appropriate role of the United States in the world as:
But whose interests does that serve, really?
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
GPS receivers and inertial systems good enough to guide missiles are ITAR restricted, even in phones. Those accelerometers in your phone are pretty much worthless for navigation or steering a missle. A smartphone might be better than what the Germans used, but it's still pretty lame. I wish this wasn't the case, because then we could drop ITAR and I could get my job done (measuring things with lasers) much more cheaply.
We should just let a crappy cardboard drone running unpatched Windows 95 'fall into their hands' so they can waste their time studying and reverse engineering our implementation of the BSOD.
If you define 1953 as not so long ago you must be in it for the long run. Waiting for the return of Zoroaster?
In 1953 we overthrew their democratic government, and then for 26 years we sponsored a puppet government that tortured and killed dissidents. A direct result of that radicalization and suppression is the Islamic Revolution of 1979. Our further interference by arranging loans for Saddam Hussein to punish them with a war cost the lives of one million people, including those who died in the gas attacks at Halabja, in the Iran-Iraq War. That ended in 1988.
This is the problem with stupid, simplistic understandings of history. It has been a policy of the United States for over a century to control and occupy the Middle East with extreme forms of violence that have killed millions, and sanctions that have killed hundreds of thousands more. There is no difference between us and the methods of other colonial powers, except that instead of pretending that natives are savages that are not worthy of consideration, we are pretending that Arabs and Iranians are savages that are not worthy of consideration. We kill them, take control of their oil, and they should just learn to accept that their natural resources may be under their feet, but God has intended them to belong to us as veto power against our enemies, or just so we can burn through it ourselves.
The historical evidence for those facts is overwhelming, and if you think you disagree with the hypothesis of American colonialism, you are either innocently or willfully ignorant.
As proof of this truism, without looking it up, name one nation that does not have a United States military presence inside of their national border, or inside of a neighboring nation. The same cannot be said for any other nation because the fact is and remains that we are a colonial power. That doesn't make us evil because we are America, but it does make us evil because we are an empire. Telling people how to live without giving them the opportunity to decide for themselves is simple tyranny, and it's wrong. It always has been, and it always will be, and there is never a legitimate principled foundation for taking away someone's right to choose their own path, especially when we take that right away from entire nations.
"With Iran taking to cyberspace and drones, it shows such technology is not just under the control of the U.S."
Well....lets see....
Remote controlled devices....
Air planes.
rockets
explosives
guidance systems for rockets....
No shit sherlock. Since the very existence of each of these technologies, with, potentially the limited and short term exception of "air planes" right after their invention, the US has NEVER held exclusive control of any of them.
It should be no shock whatsoever that these technologies can be combined by others.
Its funny, I was talking with an Iranian friend about our foriegn policy and Iran. He isn't someone you would EVER expect to talk about fondness for teh Ayatolla (he isn't even really a muslim as far as I can tell).... but he does. I finally hit on why: I pointed out that if the US were smart, and really disliked the people in power in Iran, they would stop opposing them, and lift all sanctions, and let the Iranian people take care of the problem.... and he lit up....
"You know you are right, I hate those towel heads (yes, he, a born and raised Iranian called them towel heads), I hate having to support them, but when all I hear, day after day, is 'War with Iran' and 'More sanctions' that hurt my people, it pisses me off".
No shit, I would feel the same way.
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
So Iran now has the capabilities of an angsty 13yr old script kiddy with a remote control helicopter from the sharper image. OH HIDE YO INTERNETS.
When has Israel ever threatened it's enemies with nuclear weapons? Defamation much?
#7: What countries have Israel ever "gobbled up" on Iran's borders?
So are we seriously comparing DDOS attacks that any fifteen year old with five minutes and an internet connection can do to Stuxnet, Flame, Duqu, Gauss, and the litany of Isramerica's cyber war arsenal that we haven't even discovered yet? So they can use drones to spy on alleged Israeli nuclear facilities. So what? They wouldn't have drones at all if America didn't accidentally give them one. Point is: To win this, you need brain power. Ever since the Iatolas took power, driving everyone with half a brain into hiding, or exile, they don't have a leg to stand on as far as a "cyber war" goes. And I think it's clear that they understand how paltry their attempts have been.
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What's the point of this story? Rhetorical question, it's blatantly obvious and not sure what makes this newsworthy? The things listed as not being only under U.S. control are things that pretty much every single country in the entire world has within it's reach if it wanted. Try harder Iran.
There is no way I believe that.
It's not that I think Iran is not capable of it, it's just that the spotlight is on them and everybody knows (including Iran), that Obama and Israel want to attack them. The very LAST thing Iran is going to do is launch some kind of cyber attack on us which would only given an excuse to attack them.
If you really believe Iran is doing that, then I suggest you locate some members of a gang in your city, and go punch them in the nose, and see how they respond. If your smart enough not to do that, don't you think Iran is smart enough to avoid doing something so stupid?
You need to put yourselves in their shoes, and realize that it's all propaganda by Obama. Use your head folks. be smarter than that.
This is actually true, but what you neglect to mention is that "removing from the page of time" is best translated as an expression as "wipe off the map". That being said, since that time, Iran has indeed repeated the claim in english (a billboard outside a barracks of the Revolutionary Guard Corps, for example). If it's a mistranslation, it's a mistranslation they apparently agree with. In addition, Khamenie said this year that Israel was a "cancer" that would be "cut out". Seems to me that's a bit harsher than the "off the map" quote and nobody is arguing about it's translation.
If by "Shia communitites" you mean Hezbollah, then yes, they support them -- and I would hardly call their actions defensive at all as even a cursory search could point out, not would I claim they "haven't attacked anybody in years". Iran is a state sponsor of terror too chicken shit to take direct action but perfecly happy to reign terror down on Jews and Americans worldwide through it's many proxies.
What Israel actually said was that yes, they're not working on a bomb, but they'e working on the parts and once they have those parts in a fortified bunker can likely put one together in short notice. You can't take the former part of that sentence and pretend the latter is not attached.
Did the US government really think that other nations would not simply build their own drones in response to our constant incursions into their sovereignty? Seems to me that whatever opportunity we had in being "first to market" is now over and the drone wars have just begun in earnest.
China and Iran are buddies and China is great at copying stuff and doesn't really like the west too much. It would not surprise me at all to see that China had a hand in helping Iran copy technologies in exchange for gaining access to the downed drone or malware infected computers
I think it's kind of like the Cylon plan.
To offset political mods, replace Flamebait with Insightful.
Truth doesn't matter to anti-Semites. There is a big difference between legitimate criticism of Israeli policies and making stuff up because you hate Jews so much that the truth doesn't matter. There is no other motivation to irrationally attack Israel by lying like that than antisemitism.
V1s didnt have very much accelleration, or a very high top speed, so the GP might well be correct that something of the same design could be controlled by cellphone. Travelling that slowly makes it easy to shoot down if spotted, but it also makes it a lot safer to travel at very low altitude without attracting too much attention, so the idea doesnt seem implausible.
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Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
I'd like to see much, much more "cyberwar" because we all know it's the only way to coerce security measures by otherwise lazy entities.
If leaving ones proverbial front door unlocked automatically resulted in a kick in the nuts, more doors would be secured.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
The risk: what if the plan backfires and goes beyond its intended scope?
Then the US kill a whole bunch of people, pollute their backyard, waste a trillion+ in some meaningless war and make the rest of the arab world / oil holding countries richer by increasing the oil price. Oh, and kill the little economic recovery there is.
War inc.
Always seem like at least the katest mess in the arab world is done by the US.
But then they have to "fix it" again when things doesn't match their interests any longer.
But it's people on a ship going with help for Gaza who are claimed to be "terrorists."
and israelis took the land from palestinians first. with international support, mostly. and they both are genetically very close, so it's somewhat similar if bavarians would decide that saxons are their worst enemies :)
oh, the great humankind.
Rich
Perhaps you can explain then, if it was such a conspiracy, how the US managed to orchestrate the invasion
What kind of thinking person asks how the world's largest military power "managed" to "orchestrate" the invasion? It's what we do. We spend more than the rest of the world combined every single year on our military. So why are you asking how we managed to militarily overpower a nation with 30 million people that has been subject to sanctions and bombings from 1991 until our invasion in 2003?
and create a government without managing to get a simple law passed
A law that basically states that Iraq's resources are owned by foreign powers isn't a simple law. It's a declaration of ownership. Unsurprisingly, there was huge opposition to the law, and since the opposition was from real Iraqis and not puppets like Chalabi, the idea that Iraqis own Iraqi oil prevailed. Do not give credit to the United States government for their idiocy. Give credit to the Iraqis who had the fortitude to say no to an occupying power.
Perhaps you can explain how this law would have helped give "Western" nations an advantage over other countries.
It's still about oil in Iraq
In essence, the Bush Administration invaded to overturn the Iraqi Constitution, which states that Iraqis own Iraqi oil. They failed at the second part of their plan.
On a larger note, if you want to understand geopolitics, you're going to have to read and think with some regularity in order to understand what's going on in the world. Reading US centric newspapers to understand our role in the world is like reading Pravda in order to understand Russia's role in the world. It's a helpful input, but often has nothing to do with reality.
As to the west bank military -- that would not be necessary were it not for the suicide bombers. Since the walls went up, guess what. Violence has stopped. Sure it causes inconveniences at checkpoints, but that's by nature of citizenship, not race. Even non-Israeli Jews are stopped at checkpoints. As to discrimination -- that happens in every country. In the US there is discrimination against all sorts of minorities. In Europe, it's worse (and I have lived there, for an extended period of time, so I do know this) -- and that's without immigrants habitually blowing themselves up in public places. It doesn't justify it, of course, but it's easy to understand why you're average Israeli Jew might not want to hire an Arab. It's easy to blame the Palestinian radicalization on Israel when the reality is that it would be happening regardless of what Israel does. Fatah has said it will never, ever, recognize Israel. Hamas said the same, and it's in it's charter. Why bother negotiating with that (not that the Israelis do try anyway)?
I have no doubt that a portion of Iranian citizens prefer a theocracy. However if you recall the crackdowns on protestors a couple years back shows that the theocracy will stop at no bound to stay in power, despite a significant part of the population that wants them out.
Iran chooses to starve and inflict economic hardship on their own people to a near crisis level. Here are several citations and sources on how the Iranian government hurts their own people. The Iranian government chooses to spend billions of dollars on nuclear weapons and supporting terrorism over feeding and providing medicine to their citizens. In my book the government is incorrigibly corrupt and evil.
http://www.rlc.org/irans-economy-on-the-verge-of-collapse-people-suffering-due-to-sanctions-2/
The Iranian people are the ones who feel the brunt of sanctions. In the past year, the value of the rial has fallen more than 75%, and food prices have skyrocketed more than 50%.
Meanwhile, the Iranian people are starving and dying because of lack of medicine.
http://www.economist.com/node/21564229
Despite subsidies intended to help the poor, prices for staples, such as milk, bread, rice, yogurt and vegetables, have at least doubled since the beginning of the year. Chicken has become so scarce that when scant supplies become available they prompt riots. On October 3rd police in Tehran fired tear-gas at people demonstrating over the rialâ(TM)s collapse.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/10/sanctions-iran-ordinary-people-target
Activists say that, unlike ordinary people, the regime can find a way out of banking difficulties with help from its proxies.
http://www.npr.org/2012/08/16/158831342/from-all-sides-iran-under-siege
That has brought inflation and unemployment; even some food riots have been reported. The effects of the sanctions have been too apparent to deny, says Vatanka of the Middle East Institute.
"There's no doubt, based on all the figures and even statements coming from Tehran, that they are suffering," he says. "We only have to take the words of the leadership in Tehran. They are saying they are hurting."
I read all sorts of sources including AJ. I just don't take it as gospel. My point stands. Even if that law was passed, it would have given "Western" nations no more of an advantage than the Chinese, Russians, and others who ended up getting the contracts. People like you love to go on about "conspriacies" without ever creating a concrete narrative as to how actions actually benefit the supposed conspirator. The net result of the Iraq was has been absolutely horriffic for the US. Our reputation as a nation is smashed to bits. The region has been destabilized. Iraq is soon to become yet another proxy state of Iran. Nobody will every believe us again about WMDs which gives every dictator with the will carte blanche to say "the US is lying again" while rushing unabated to the nuclear finish line. And on top of all of that we didn't even get any of the oil we supposedly did it all for. Jesus. If the conspirators are that incompetent, you really think it's out of the realm of possibility they were actually stupid enough to believe Saddam, suspicious as he was acting, didn't actually have WMDs. It's not like the CIA has a fantastic track record historically on predicting these sorts of things. We've missed the mark on every single nuclear advance of every single enemy without exception. One day there's a test and ... wow ... who saw it coming? Certainly not the CIA. Your really think it's just not possible Iraq is a result of stupidity and not malice? You have a lot more faith in our leadership than I do.
i meant "acting, actually had WMDs"...
That's not the point. The point is that you can't threaten somebody with something you don't even acknowledge you posess! The mere threat would be an admission! It's not fucking rocket science.
of what our Government is going to do with our freedom over this (supposed) threat?
Be seeing you...
I read all sorts of sources including AJ. I just don't take it as gospel. My point stands.
No, it doesn't. Your assertion was that the United States did not invade Iraq for oil, but every single internal document is either aimed at excusing the invasion or at overturning the Iraqi constitution in order to open up their oil market. You are fucking wrong, and you're still wrong, despite your feigned ignorance aimed at winning this argument.
Even if that law was passed, it would have given "Western" nations no more of an advantage than the Chinese, Russians, and others who ended up getting the contracts. People like you love to go on about "conspriacies" without ever creating a concrete narrative as to how actions actually benefit the supposed conspirator. The net result of the Iraq was has been absolutely horriffic for the US. Our reputation as a nation is smashed to bits. The region has been destabilized. Iraq is soon to become yet another proxy state of Iran. Nobody will every believe us again about WMDs which gives every dictator with the will carte blanche to say "the US is lying again" while rushing unabated to the nuclear finish line. And on top of all of that we didn't even get any of the oil we supposedly did it all for. Jesus. If the conspirators are that incompetent, you really think it's out of the realm of possibility they were actually stupid enough to believe Saddam, suspicious as he was acting, didn't actually have WMDs.
Just because the conspiracy failed doesn't mean there wasn't a conspiracy. It would be like claiming that Moscow never had any intention of running things in Czechoslovakia if they were kicked out, or failed it any part of their plans. It's a childish way to escape the truth.
It's not like the CIA has a fantastic track record historically on predicting these sorts of things. We've missed the mark on every single nuclear advance of every single enemy without exception.
Holy fuck, are you actually that misinformed?
Your really think it's just not possible Iraq is a result of stupidity and not malice? You have a lot more faith in our leadership than I do.
It's a combination of hubris, malice, and stupidity. You seem to live in a fantasy world of false dichotomies.
you turned that out as if i had suggested arabs should have annihilated the just-created isreal, or that they should do it now.
i do think the initial "carving" of a state was a fucking mistake. by now it can't be simply undone, so the best i can do is wonder why the people who might be considered the same nation in other circumstances fight so heavily.
Rich
" the USA is out of control like a beheaded chicken running to wherever it happens to go." -- a lot more accurate than you might think. I totally agree on your solution, however. Nuclear, FTW. Thorium should be looked into also.
Actually the US withheld munitions from Israel at the start of the 1967 conflict (when Israel struck first after seeing the Egyptians massing for an attack). This has prompted the Israelis to develop their own arms industry, which is now the most technologically advanced in the World. Talk about "blowback".
Just a note. Oil wouldn't go up for long because Iran doesn't sell much of it's oil. Most of fit has been embargoed for the last year or two and it's output has been restricted for a while.
If we went to war with Iran, I project the price of oil actually dropping because investors know the eventuality would be the oil being sold in larger quantities then it is now.
However, I don't see the US or any western nation going into Iran. I think it would eventually happen that a neighboring state would invade and western nations would become allies in aid. Iran is a more complicated mess then Iraq or Afghanistan. We missed opportunities to support a revolt that apparently was happening without any western instigation. The public of Iran would likely not take to us deposing their government.
Not my intention.
The lion share of conflicts across the middle east and northern Africa can be laid at the feet of the English and the French. The English handed out fiefdoms to the Arab elite to secure their access to their oil. Today people assert that the US was responsible for the Iranian change of government in 1953 but it was the Iranians themselves who enacted the change of government in the country. Nobody had a gun pointed at their heads. And it was not the US who sent warships to block Iranian from exporting their oil. No country is happy when their international assets are nationalised and that was exactly what Iran was planning at the time. The US had very little invested in Iran at the time and were more worried about the Korean war and Russian expansion at the time to really care.
People tend to assume that the US military is as lethal and over bearing as it is today and can dictate terms but that is really not the case today.
Every international border in the world is drawn in blood. Sometimes the borders have been re-drawn more than once requiring even more blood.I think Iran and the other middle eastern countries would be in much better position if the Ayatollahs and religious extremists had not used religious dogma as the basis of administering the state.
The US or any other country should not get involved in either supporting or vilifying the Iranian government. Just ignore them and treat them as a non-entity when it comes to any international cooperation. I don't believe a military solution is warranted unless the Iranian government does something stupid such as attempting to close the Hormuz strait or targeting any US interests using their 3rd party proxies. It's up to the Iranians themselves to forge their own destiny but so far their efforts have been weak and ineffective. The last time the Iranian public got serious about instituting governmental changes was in 1979 but the naive students and short sighted progressives were marginalized by the islamist with little trouble. The protesters deserve the government they got because they did not bother to think ahead or have a plan for a new government framework after their glorious revolution. Storming the barricades might be exciting and look impressive on TV but you are not going to create a viable government once the riots burn out. The hardline Islamists played the protesters for fools in 1979. While the protesters were busy holding US hostages and spouting clever slogans the Islamists were actually organizing themselves to take over the government. If the Iranian public wants a change in government they will have to accept that people will die and sacrifices will need to be endured. The general public vastly outnumbers the government soldiers and civilian militias but the majority never use this advantage to institute any changes. People go on about Muslim extremists being a tiny minority within the Muslim community so why don't these non-violent Muslims actually make an attempt to nullify the violent extremists in their midst? If they don't try to stand up to the minority damaging the entire Muslim faith then don't expect any sympathy, understanding, or help from anyone.
So Iran now has the capabilities of an angsty 13yr old script kiddy with a remote control helicopter from the sharper image. OH HIDE YO INTERNETS.
==============
Be careful with sarcasm. The United States does not have a monopoly on intelligent people. Iran is probably following the old biblical expression "Do unto others before they do unto you".
Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
Just ignore them and treat them as a non-entity when it comes to any international cooperation.
Incorrect. Your approach would work if Iranians kept to themselves. They don't. They created and arm Hezbollah in Lebanon, permanently distabilising that state and cotinually threatening Israeli civilians. They used to support the terrorist organuisation Hamas (although there has been a falling out recently). Iran infiltrated Iraq during the outsting of Saddam and introduced shaped penetrator weapons for killing US troops. They supported Moqtada Al Sadr's Mahdi Army causing chaos in Iraq. They supply and fund Bashir Al Assad's brutal regime killing over 30,000 people in Syria. They provide rockets and drones to Hezbollah, used to start the 2006 war and recently flying a drone into Israel towards the reactor at Dimona. The Iranian Quds Force has been caught performing or training terrorist acts against Israeli civilians in Bulgaria, Georgia, India, Argentina, and Thailand (where the Iranian cell were caught). Oh yeah, and the pronouncements from time to time where officials state that Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth.
Once Iran gets a nuke it won't get better (and make no mistake, despite their obfuscation all the evidence points for them working toward a capability for a weapon, and the times that Ahmadinejad and the generals slip up and actually say so in public [despite it supposed to be a secret]). Once Iran has a nuke it will almost certainly invade and annex Bahrain and several islands in the straight of Hormuz. There will be a nuclear arms in the Arabian/Persian Gulf as Saudi Arabia, the UA, Kuwait etc all get nukes so they don't share the same fate. Letting Iran get nukes is far far worse than stopping them (eg. via repeated and thorough air strikes on their production facilities).
The last time the Iranian public got serious about instituting governmental changes was in 1979
Incorrect, the public wanted a change in 2009 with the Green Revolution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%932010_Iranian_election_protests This was brutally (and that word is both accurate and not used lightly here) suppressed by the fascist religious government and their Basiji thugs. Leading protest organizers were not tried and thrown in jail, they were executed for "waging war against God". Please check your facts before you post on Slashdot in defence of the indefensible Iranian religio-fascist state.
The hardline Islamists played the protesters for fools in 1979. While the protesters were busy holding US hostages and spouting clever slogans the Islamists were actually organizing themselves to take over the government.
Correct. The Iranian popular revolution was usurped by a theocratic "counter-revolution". Ordinary Iranians I meet and hang out with love their country and are proud of its history. They absolutely *hate* their government but have no way to get them out of office (the elections are not democratic, free or fair) and because the goverment believes they are on a mission from god they believe they have the right to use unlimited force on their civilians (and the civilians of other countries).
People go on about Muslim extremists being a tiny minority within the Muslim community so why don't these non-violent Muslims actually make an attempt to nullify the violent extremists in their midst? If they don't try to stand up to the minority damaging the entire Muslim faith then don't expect any sympathy, understanding, or help from anyone.
The Muslims that do stand up are killed for not being "muslim enough". You simply can't appease muslim extremists (eg. wahhabis and salafis). There is no concession we can make that will stop their violence. They will always seek to impose islam and sharia around the globe. Hence they must be resisted and, more importantly, de
US might not have a monopoly on intelligent people, but Iran has no intelligent people at all. Indeed, no people at all in general, only garbage.
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I presume you are in jest.
The president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has a Doctorate in Science but is under control of the Ayatolah and is told what to do.
Iranians have very intelligent people, but the religious zealots have control of the army, police and secret service. So, these intellectuals are held semi-captive and prevented from leaving the country.
The Iranians can destroy the US internet if they desired. They have drones, they have spied on their neighbors with these drones, and for all you know, they could actually be using a drone within the USA borders.
No country has exclusivity on intelligence.
Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
...about the time some pro-Israelian fuck came and threw the anti-semite card...
ranma - girl?