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Industrial Control Software Easily Hackable

jfruh writes "CoDeSys, a piece of software running on industrial control systems from hundreds of vendors, has been revealed to be easily hackable by security researchers, giving rise to a scenario where computer hacking could cross the line into the physical world. Worse, many of these systems are unneccessarily connected to the Internet, which is a terrible, terrible idea."

112 of 194 comments (clear)

  1. Enter Kaspersky by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Kaspersky says they'll come up with a new OS specifically designed to protect industrial control systems from hacking and sabotage.

    http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2411052,00.asp

    1. Re:Enter Kaspersky by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      They also said they'd come up with an exploit-proof operating system so their credibility is more than just a little suspect.

      http://it.slashdot.org/story/12/10/19/2254209/kasperskys-exploit-proof-os-leaves-security-experts-skeptical

    2. Re:Enter Kaspersky by gweihir · · Score: 2

      Talk is cheap. My guess: They cannot do it, but enough people will believe them. Once the OS is in place, they cannot migrate away anymore.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    3. Re:Enter Kaspersky by Johnny+O · · Score: 2

      ??? they cant pick a live Linux CD?

    4. Re:Enter Kaspersky by Interfacer · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Speaking as the system administrator for a large DCS system: the OS will be no good without a complete redesign of the application level software. The problem is not really the OS, but the fact that in order to make everything work together 'automagically', there are hardcoded service accounts, and much of the app executables (which are often executed with system permissions) are writable because the entire installation folder is writable. And of course, the controllers that do perform all control actions use a protocol whose only real claim to security is obscurity.

      And from what I can tell, the system I manage is fundamentally no different in that regard from DCS or SCADA systems from other vendors. While it is true that a secure-by-design would be a good place to start, the main problem atm is that the application architecture is hopelessly insecure.

    5. Re:Enter Kaspersky by bbelt16ag · · Score: 1

      so.. please tell me you don't put this on the net do ya? You make sure there is physical security around those systems too? this seems likes ripe pick-ens for any hacker foreign or domestic?

      --
      NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER GIVE UP! "No limitations, no boundaries, there is no reason for them."
    6. Re:Enter Kaspersky by plover · · Score: 2

      Even if they could do it, very few ICS admins would switch to it. Most people there are responsible for stability as their most important attribute - and that means running a solution that has proven itself over and over and over again. Related to this concern is downtime: often times these plants are running 24x365 schedules, controlling furnaces that keep ovens full of molten iron from freezing solid, which could destroy the oven. Shutting down a production line takes time and planning to prevent damage, and every minute that line is down, they are not making money.

      When there is a credible threat, they look at addressing the threat on an individual basis. Firewalls between the controller and the LAN. Epoxy in the USB ports. A locking cabinet around the CD-ROM drive. But replacing the core of the factory, on an unproven software package, just "in case" a hacker might target them? Not terribly likely.

      --
      John
    7. Re:Enter Kaspersky by gweihir · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Even if they could do it, very few ICS admins would switch to it. Most people there are responsible for stability as their most important attribute - and that means running a solution that has proven itself over and over and over again. Related to this concern is downtime: often times these plants are running 24x365 schedules, controlling furnaces that keep ovens full of molten iron from freezing solid, which could destroy the oven. Shutting down a production line takes time and planning to prevent damage, and every minute that line is down, they are not making money.

      Indeed. What they actually need to do is to really isolate these control systems in the hard sense. I.e. no ports network, data import only manually, data export via CD-R or the like, clear message to employees that connecting any USB media, Laptops, etc. will result in immediate termination, ...

      It can be done, even if it may require some people to suffer first, as Iran found out. They did execute the people that imported Stuxnet via USB drive. My guess is they will not have that problem again anytime soon.

      When there is a credible threat, they look at addressing the threat on an individual basis. Firewalls between the controller and the LAN. Epoxy in the USB ports. A locking cabinet around the CD-ROM drive. But replacing the core of the factory, on an unproven software package, just "in case" a hacker might target them? Not terribly likely.

      This is not enough. Firewalls are insufficient. They need to implement real isolation, i.e. only an isolated net may be used and that has to be very heavily protected. It will take quite some time for them to find out how to do that, although competent IT security people could tell them today. The problem is that they are asking the wrong questions and are looking for IT experts that understand their business, instead of looking for competent IT security folks.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    8. Re:Enter Kaspersky by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      It can be done, even if it may require some people to suffer first, as Iran found out. They did execute the people that imported Stuxnet via USB drive. My guess is they will not have that problem again anytime soon.

      Well it's pretty difficult to insert a USB drive when you've had both hands cut off (in Allah's mercy)...

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    9. Re:Enter Kaspersky by Meski · · Score: 1

      That's going to have a chilling effect on their 'citizens' volunteering anything happening.

    10. Re:Enter Kaspersky by plover · · Score: 2

      And the further simplistic (but still dumb and vulnerable) solution for you might be "two laptops". Only the red laptop connects to the equipment. The other laptop connects to the Internet and lets you read the manuals, docs, slashdot, etc. If you need to download a file, you format a flash drive in the red laptop, insert it into the black laptop and copy the file, then read it back in the red laptop. It's cheap enough, and adds another layer of difficulty. It might not have stopped Stuxnet, but it would have stopped everything else.

      But I get that the network connections make these systems far more valuable than isolated systems. If you are working on a municipal water system, having you sit at a desk and remotely connecting in to monitor valves and pumps around the city means you can be effective in dozens of places at once. If you are working in a manufacturing plant, your manufacturing systems can tell your warehouse systems that productivity means you're filling 100 pallets of product per hour today, and your shipping system can schedule the right number of drivers and trucks. Disconnecting is no longer an option in 2012.

      The best solution would be to create a test platform that everyone trusts is effective. Prove that you can test security upgrades and guarantee that they won't be bringing the factory down. Get the CEO to sign off on the plan that says "we will test every security patch in this new test system, and install every patch in production within one month." And have billion dollar lawsuits hanging over the vendor's contracts.

      It's all very expensive. But how expensive are the vulnerabilities if an attacker does get in?

      --
      John
  2. Not such a bad idea... by jmerlin · · Score: 5, Funny

    Worse, many of these systems are unneccessarily connected to the Internet, which is a terrible, terrible idea.

    Now you're just being paranoid. Instead, you should develop an artificially intelligent system to defeat would-be attackers and malicious software. That sounds like the best idea.

    - Skynet

    1. Re:Not such a bad idea... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Way ahead of you.

      -Colosus

    2. Re:Not such a bad idea... by stanlyb · · Score: 1

      I have better idea. Why don't we just make not better, but NORMAL software, with NORMAL developers, not the bunch of idiots that are thinking they have anything common with "developing" anything at all???

    3. Re:Not such a bad idea... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1
    4. Re:Not such a bad idea... by greg_barton · · Score: 1

      Instead, you should develop an artificially intelligent system to defeat would-be attackers and malicious software.

      Yes, you should.

      (Disclaimer: I work for Skynet.)

    5. Re:Not such a bad idea... by Capitaine · · Score: 1

      Security is not in requirement specification, why would they implement it ?

      "- Boss, I got an idea. We could implement two-factor authentication, full AES encryption of network data and D-H key exchange in our industrial software. Nerds will love it. It would cost x k$ (with x > 0).
      - Hum, no. And gtfo of here."

  3. Yup by 50000BTU_barbecue · · Score: 5, Informative
    Having recently switched fields from high-end telecom gear to industrial machinery, I can confirm this. The industry works with what hardware they know. I last worked in the field two decades ago, and now I see the same Cutler-Hammer contacts, the same Schadow switches, the same Schroff and Rittal metal works, the same Panduit wire ducts, the same Oriental motor drives, the same Allen Bradley PLCs... Oops, that PLC now has an ethernet port? The PLC looks the same as before, a grey box covered in screw terminals, but apparently it must have changed from a 6809 running GRAFCET to some sort of modern porous monstrosity needlessly running a 64 bit OS with so much unverifiable code.

    It's not necessary.

    --
    Mostly random stuff.
    1. Re:Yup by hjf · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I like to compare the problem in this industry to Powerpoint presentations. If you ever attend a university lecture, you'll see the professor, who is an engineer, doctor, master's, Ph.D or whatever. He has 5 degrees, hundreds of certifications, and thousands of hours of experience in the field or in front of a class. Yet, he cannot be bothered to invest a few hours of his time in learning *GOOD* powerpoint skills. And don't even get me started on "getting your computer hooked up to the projector".

      In the automation industry it's the same thing. A very clever engineer, real genius sometimes, comes up with mechanisms you wouldn't even dream of, and designs a machine as big as a building, that works perfectly. The problem is, it's the same guy who programs the PLC, and he likes to do it in Ladder diagram (which has its advantages. I do ladder and i admit it has the benefit that you can "see" the program, and not get losts in semicolons and braces). But, like a rookie programmer, he disables security, releases in debug mode, uses default passwords, and many other "bad practices" that could be easily solvable if he bothered to spend a few hours to learn to think as a software guy. Sure, disabling your firewall isn't harmful if you're testing for a few minutes. But "i can't find the problem so the only workaround i found was to disable the firewall" is pretty much what happens with these guys.

    2. Re:Yup by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's insanity to build 1000 identical machines with different passwords. Customers expect to get similar machines, and having different passwords only invites utter chaos.

      Customers also expect electricians to be able to look at PLC logic, and know passwords on machines that they might look at once every two years. To expect different passwords is idiotic at best.

      What needs improved are network level firewalls, which the IT department needs to do. Instead, IT people ask things like, "Can't you migrate that HMI to Windows 7 from NT4?" not realizing that it is impossible, and would would utterly break it, shutting down production for unknown amounts of time.

      I know that Slashdot is very IT-centric, but it's a network (and USB key) restriction problem, not a problem with operation-level equipment.

    3. Re:Yup by stanlyb · · Score: 1

      The hardware is insecure, yes, that's true, but the Intel machine controlling this old hardware...i wonder what is the excuse there? They use the latest VS2010, .NET, MOP.net, you say whatever NET, and it is still sooo entirely insecure, that i....i simply have no words.

    4. Re:Yup by hjf · · Score: 2

      So why do they have passwords if the password is always 1234 and even the janitor knows it?

    5. Re:Yup by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I work in this industry too, and I assure you I've never met another person in my field who knew anythimg about computer security, let alone thought it was important. When I point out obvious security precautions like putting a firewall between the industrial network and the corporate network, it's like I'm speaking Greek. Nobody knows or cares. I once worked with a contractor PLC programmer that brought a home wireless router and plugged it into the customer's industrial network with no password just for the convenience of geting online with the PLC wirelessly. It's so frustrating. We're screwing ourselves so badly. There's nothing I can do except wait for a major catastrophe to wake up the industry and make them change their ways. I hope I'm wrong.

    6. Re:Yup by Bacon+Bits · · Score: 1

      The same reason they put locks on the glass doors of convenience stores. To keep out inquisitive idiots.

      --
      The road to tyranny has always been paved with claims of necessity.
    7. Re:Yup by inasity_rules · · Score: 3, Insightful

      On the other hand when the SI password protects the PLC so another SI can't get in and fix the system(because the first SI is now out of business), now we can get in and do it without re-engineering the whole system. Sometimes low security has benefits.

      90% of the security we implement is air gap. Once someone has physical access to the control panel, you've lost anyway, they could start swapping wires and pulling relays if they wanted. If the system must be on a network, we put it on physically separate network, with at most one SCADA PC on both(because the client demanded it). Still, you can set up a nice secure(ish) system, and two weeks later the client's IT department has screwed it up completely.

      The major catastrophe you're waiting for is actually surprisingly unlikely. Sure a malicious person could cause a lot of damage, but from what I have seen people are more interested in stealing stuff than blowing it up. Why go to all the effort of destroying the mill on the goldmine when you could go to all the effort of smuggling gold out? They'd rather get on the internet to check their facebook, and once they realise the control PC is not on the internet they don't care anymore.

      --
      I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
    8. Re:Yup by bbelt16ag · · Score: 1

      then i would suspect we owned by any and all hackers in the world. so once they take it all down and kill millions of people, since they dont got generators to protect the power grid, . will they learn from this lesson? will the Gov. peeps haul their ass up to congress and make em fix it or will they get a slap on the wrist like the finance peeps?

      --
      NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER GIVE UP! "No limitations, no boundaries, there is no reason for them."
    9. Re:Yup by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      The industry works with what hardware they know.

      No. The industry works with what hardware they TRUST. The problem is that trust is built up on a per company basis. After many years of experience with one vendor that vendor ends up on a list of preferred suppliers for any product they manufacture.

      This is really good and really bad. By finding the good vendors you end up with a reliable and consistent equipment base which all your techs can be trained to work on and the next new project won't introduce uncertainty in the way of equipment requiring new training, new maintenance etc.

      However it all comes unstuck if you have too much goodwill towards a company that you won't boot them off the preferred vendor list. We the end users aren't experts and few of us known what goes on inside the equipment. But the end users need to have the balls to say to a vendor that they'll end up on the banned vendor list if they do something we don't like.

    10. Re:Yup by fph+il+quozientatore · · Score: 1

      If you ever attend a university lecture, you'll see the professor, who is an engineer, doctor, master's, Ph.D or whatever. He has 5 degrees, hundreds of certifications, and thousands of hours of experience in the field or in front of a class. Yet, he cannot be bothered to invest a few hours of his time in learning *GOOD* powerpoint skills. And don't even get me started on "getting your computer hooked up to the projector".

      Not in mathematics. Almost everyone uses Latex (often, the beamer package for slides); the most old-style people use the good ol' blackboard or hand-written transparencies. If you show up at a conference with a ppt file, you look immediately like a rube.

      --
      My first program:

      Hell Segmentation fault

    11. Re:Yup by shentino · · Score: 1

      It can also prevent people named Terry Childs from taking your network hostage.

      The most important security, is watching the watchers. Can the top boss still get into the system?

    12. Re:Yup by inasity_rules · · Score: 1

      The top boss normally demands access to the SCADA in a monitoring mode. Or the SQL based reporting system at least, which should have a blame trail logged in it... Normally you don't want anyone but a qualified engineer messing around in a PLC.

      --
      I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
    13. Re:Yup by RobinH · · Score: 1

      Certainly the GP isn't talking about physical security, or even trying to use cybersecurity as a replacement for physical security. If there's a malicious guy standing beside your control panel, good luck. However, the fact is more and more industrial control systems, are connected directly to the corporate network. Even if they're not on the same network, you almost certainly need some kind of MES system with access to both networks, so you have a single point of failure there. Even without that you have laptops with the programming software. You need to copy EDS files onto those from the vendor's site, you need to "activate" the programming software by connecting it to the internet, so you're constantly moving it between both networks. That's another major security hole.

      Plus, numerous times I've been required to logon to these systems to do support remotely, even when they were in different countries. I even went online with a line CompactLogix PLC across the internet for troubleshooting because the customer requested it. Management stood behind me (literally) oooh'ing and ah'ing about how cool it was that it could be done, thinking they were brilliant for coming up with the idea to save a trip onsite. Think about that situation... if the customer's laptop was directly connected to the industrial network and they were connected to a Webex meeting from that laptop, and giving control of their desktop to my PC, exactly how did they do that if their industrial and corporate networks are actually "air gapped"? They're not the only customer doing this either.

      --
      "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
    14. Re:Yup by inasity_rules · · Score: 2

      Well, ultimately the customer is going to care more about downtime than about security. Even if security has a nebulous risk (that they have not run into yet) of causing downtime. Where I work, we also remote into systems, sometimes directly over a 3G modem. It is a massive security issue, but the convenience sometimes trumps it. Admittedly you'd have to hack a private APN to get into the system, and then bypass the passwords. It is doable, I am sure, but it would be a lot of effort to go to to get into, say, a water recovery plant in the middle of nowhere.

      Most of the PLC software I work with, thankfully only requires activation once(or in one case not at all). Rockwell's system of software licensing and flashing the blasted PLC every time you need to do something that should be standard actually does them no favors with me. I will not recommend them to clients and I will only use them if the customer specifies that I do. I am much happier with an Omron or Mitsubishi system. Hell, I'll even take Toshiba over their stuff. Not to mention the terrible support I've gotten out of Rockwell. No thank you very much.

      Ultimately there is a compromise on these systems between security and convenience. And that is just the way it is.

      --
      I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
    15. Re:Yup by gtall · · Score: 1

      That's fine when you enemy is a crook who needs a financial incentive to get off. However, if your enemy is, I don't know...pick any of the global actors, someone or organization who gets off on causing mayhem, then the calculus changes.

    16. Re:Yup by gtall · · Score: 2

      I recently went to a logic conference in Poland, only one presentation used ppt, the rest were Beamer and Latex. That's more or less the way it is done through theoretical computer science and among logicians. The reason has to do with typesetting mathematics. MS seems to have worked overtime to make that as painful as possible in ppt. Apple's Keynote makes it easy so it isn't impossible on something like ppt. Frankly, I won't touch ppt unless it is the last step in a process of producing slides and the slides simply have to be in ppt so management doesn't lose its tiny brain.

    17. Re:Yup by inasity_rules · · Score: 1

      Well, which is a better target? A nuclear power plant or a water recovery plant for a mine in the middle of nowhere. Set up your security accordingly - lock down the nuclear plant tightly. The water recovery plant can go down for weeks until someone bothers to go fix it and plug any minor issues. Seriously whats with all the paranoia on /. today?

      --
      I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
    18. Re:Yup by tibit · · Score: 2

      All this password brouhaha is silly. If you have physical access, you can always do whatever the heck you want -- for all we know, you can unplug the control wiring from the PLC and run the machine from a pushbutton panel. That has always been the case. All one needs is a button on the PLC that you have to press, perhaps twice, to indicate that you're local and want to let a connection from your laptop access the PLC's administrative functions. Otherwise, if you're doing it from a cental office of some sort, there is no reason at all not to have your public key uploaded to all the PLCs during commissioning. Passwords fill a need that IMHO doesn't exist in real scenarios in a plant. Either you have local access, or you have access to system documentation that includes the file with public key. Anything else invites an "electrician" to cause a lot of damage.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    19. Re:Yup by tibit · · Score: 1

      Yeah, because you can't have a fucking button on the PLC itself to enable direct passwordless access when you already have physical access and can screw things as you please... For everything else, you don't need passwords, just loading up the set of public keys of entities that are allowed to make changes in the PLC. That's all there's to it. No passwords.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    20. Re:Yup by inasity_rules · · Score: 1

      That is actually a very good idea. Sort of what OPC UA is trying to achieve. It is a great pity nobody has implemented it that I can see.

      --
      I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
    21. Re:Yup by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      So your machines run all night, banging out 100,000 promotional cake tins for True Love Waits.

      And they all have penisbird embossed on them.

      I bet it was that bastard in Accounts Receivable.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    22. Re:Yup by RobinH · · Score: 1

      That same PLC has to work in tiny little job shops where the only support is a local electrician, and they're perfectly capable of going online with said PLC, adding a new sensor they need to stop the machine when the new hopper they installed is full, and going on their merry way. In that kind of situation it's likely the PLC isn't hooked up to a network anyway. Besides, you underestimate the ability of an "electrician" who needs to get a job done. Trust me, there are much more serious ways for an electrician to screw things up than making a mistake with a PLC. In fact PLCs are designed to be understood and programmed by electricians. That's why most are programmed in ladder logic.

      --
      "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
    23. Re:Yup by tibit · · Score: 1

      Again, if you have physical access, all it takes is a little button to temporarily allow unlimited, password-less connection. I'm sure there's plenty of simple PLCs that are programmable with ladder logic only and any electrician will understand them, the stuff I deal with is used for motion control and you need to know your shit to do anything much with them. Like, for example, knowing a bit about a couple of different industrial communications protocols, knowing a bit about TCP/IP networking, knowing a bit about computer science (algorithmic complexity), knowing a bit about digital signal processing, etc. The apocryphal "electrician" would probably manage to do a lot of damage and nothing much else. This is stuff where if you get a control loop unstable, things that cost $20k apiece will run into other things and get broken.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    24. Re:Yup by hjf · · Score: 1

      TFA was about SCADA hacks. SCADA systems are networks with (usually) remote screens. The point is that you can hack these systems easily with no physical access.

  4. While Kaspersky's claiming... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    ...that they'll come up with something, the REAL solution has NOTHING to do with what they're talking to.

    The OS isn't just the problem. It's the SCADA applications themselves as well. Something I've pointed out on several occasions to industry and even to people at NIST on the subject- in fact, quite a few researcher's have pointed this out over the last decade now. (And, all of a sudden, it's a "problem" now...sigh...)

    Kaspersky's solution WON'T fix things like they're claiming- it's just more snake oil in a field FILLED with it.

    They're more worried about having to change out things and the expenses of these deeply flawed designs they've cobbled together to manage the system components of things. The solution is to START OVER with honest security in mind instead of all of the half-assed solutions including authenticated DNP3 and the like.

  5. Simple solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

    Make the first episode of BSG Season 1 required viewing for "intro to computers" class.

    This is a mouse, this is a keyboard, this is why you don't jack your global defense grid into a wifi hotspot.

    1. Re:Simple solution by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      The last part will be censored. Of course, only for graphic display of violence and gruesome death.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  6. Professionalization of software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    At what point will software engineering be professionalized like the other branches of engineering?

    Surely there are well established guidelines for securing software at this point.

    1) Create a professional society for software engineers (the SPSE, let's say) with the power to grant and revoke certificates. Assemble a blue-ribbon committee and give them 6 months to come up with membership requirements
    2) Have the SPSE adopt existing standards regarding security, stability, and whatever other categories are needed
    3) Amend the existing construction/operating permitting mechanisms by adding a requirement to use certified software engineers

    Voila, now whenever you build a factory, hospital, or other civil engineering structure that is already heavily regulated, you will be required to use certified gear, and that certified gear must now be built to a minimum industry standard.

    Other industries can then piggy-back on your new standards: the codes for banks can be rewritten, and miscellaneous unregulated industries and companies can write the requirement into their contracts.

    1. Re:Professionalization of software by Opportunist · · Score: 1, Interesting

      A nice idea in theory, but you're dealing with security. A field that reinvents itself every 3-6 months.

      Judging from the average "standardized" guideline, the moment the final draft is getting its last changes it will be outdated by about 2 generations. So you now have the choice, either be accurate and give attention to detail and be about 3-4 years behind the attackers, or be vague and spotty and have everything pass because they can somehow fudge it.

      We're not talking about approving technology where your "enemy" is physics and bugs in programs that wait for you and has no chance to strike until you employ your technology, because only then flaws in your programming or your physics will manifest. Your enemy is a human attacker who will strike today, given a chance, and who doesn't care that you need a few more years to get through approval.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:Professionalization of software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      "Did professional engineers prevent the Challenger Disaster?"

      No, they did not. They tried like hell to prevent it, they were quite certain there was going to be an issue, because they knew the seals failed with lower temperatures, and seals had failed at temperatures not as extreme as on that day, so they were pretty certain there would be a problem and tried to stop the lunch. Sadly, it was not the engineers who were ultimately responsible for that launch, but folks more worried about bad PR.

      So, what was your point?

    3. Re:Professionalization of software by interval1066 · · Score: 1
      --
      Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
    4. Re:Professionalization of software by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I like your ideas. Who's going to pay for it, though? And please don't say the engineer. Looking around in my field, even my paycheck would hardly allow me to actually stay on top of the development in security.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    5. Re:Professionalization of software by shentino · · Score: 1

      That engineering is like every other field where the chain of command prevails.

      The guys at the top get all the goodies and glory and the guys at the bottom get stuck with the blame when shit goes wrong.

    6. Re:Professionalization of software by RobinH · · Score: 2

      I'm a P.Eng. I work in the control system industry. Most of the people who work in this industry are P.Eng.'s or certainly have an Engineering degree. Most of the ones I've met know *nothing* about computer security. These Engineers are the ones plugging PLCs directly into office networks because they're EE's. They have little to no training in computer networks (short of setting up their home routers). They have no idea what a VLAN is. They have heard the term firewall but don't really know what one does. Usually it's also EE's who are the ones writing the software (like CoDeSys) that runs on these devices (because it's embedded software and it helps to have lots of good hardware knowledge).

      The only reason I know something about computer security is because I'm very interested in it, and I really think we, as an industry, need to know this stuff. Unfortunately nobody else seems to agree with me.

      At any rate, we *are* professionals. I pay hundreds of dollars per year to maintain my P.Eng. license. I had to write law and ethics exams to get my license. I can lose my license if I don't follow industry best practices. Unfortunately the best practices *in our industry* for this kind of thing are completely inadequate. In fact, none of the stuff we're talking about here actually requires a P.Eng. to stamp the design. Sure, the *safety* system has to be stamped by a P.Eng., but anybody can plug network switches together. So no, requiring control system guys to be licensed won't help... many already are. You need to educate the professional organizations and standards organizations, and have them change the regulations.

      --
      "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
    7. Re:Professionalization of software by fatphil · · Score: 2

      Erm, no. True engineers use metric. Anyone not using metric is by definition not a true engineer.

      I do like the sophistry in that CNN article - blaming the "English" units, rather than "Imperial" units. Nobody calls them "English" units, that's just an attempt to try to distract blame from shoddy American sloppiness.

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
    8. Re:Professionalization of software by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      The irony is that the part of the world that is most stubbornly attached to it[1] was the first to gain independence from the British Empire - after which the antiquated measurement system is named.

      [1] or rather, a half-arsed bastardised dumbed-down version of it.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    9. Re:Professionalization of software by interval1066 · · Score: 1

      Troll much, ass?

      --
      Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
  7. Industrial machinery is easily hackable if... by couchslug · · Score: 1

    ...you have physical access and hand tools. The ease of access in-place isn't a problem.

    Controlling access itself is the problem.

    --
    "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    1. Re:Industrial machinery is easily hackable if... by RobinH · · Score: 1

      Mod parent up... they hit the nail on the head.

      --
      "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
    2. Re:Industrial machinery is easily hackable if... by fatphil · · Score: 1

      Exactly. "Worse, many of these systems are unneccessarily connected to the Internet" is mostly bollocks. That's not the "worse", that's the whole problem. But they put MS windows on cash machines, so they'll basically do anything that seems quick and easy. I have no sympathy for any industries which invest in such hackable devices and have connected to (a network connected to) the internet. Open season - hack away!

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
    3. Re:Industrial machinery is easily hackable if... by couchslug · · Score: 1

      If I have a PHB for a boss who pisses me off my mission is to fuck him over (being a PHB forfeits any moral obligations I'd otherwise have) so I'd document everything I'm directed to do and make slyly sure others know his every fuckup. I'd also befriend him so he didn't know what hit him.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
  8. Easily hackable? by manu0601 · · Score: 1

    What we have here is a TCP port that let you have an unauthenticated shell access. In other words, this an easy to find backdoor. It is so easily exploitable that I am not sure it even deserve the term "hack".

    1. Re:Easily hackable? by godrik · · Score: 1

      Nobody will ever think of doing "telnet nuclearbomb.gov 1337". That would be too simple!

  9. may need unions as well so the coders can stand by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 2

    may need unions as well so the coders can stand up to the PHB's and say that...

    That time table is to tight

    We need more staff and the 80 hour weeks are just makeing us make more errors.

    We can't cut QA

    You can't hire people who can't pass the certified test but have BA/BS while passing over people who have passed the test but don't have a BA/BS.

    No I will not add this new stuff to the code this late in the roll out hell we still have some big bugs in the code base to work out.

    No will not use that POS best buy special as the system that will run the PLS hell it's PSU is a very poor one per this review of it.

  10. tell that to the PHB who said we can save my remot by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    tell that to the PHB who said we can save by remoteing control to some offsite place.
     

  11. Industrial Manufacturing is changing by hypnobuddha · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    With the emergence of 3D Printers, rapid prototyping and the domestication/democratization of manufacturing, I don't think it's going to do so much harm. Manufacturing is undergoing a revolution. Many parts (and even burritos... Google that up to see what I mean) will be "printed out" at home. People won't give toys and dishes for Christmas, they'll gift the blueprints and some resins instead. Heavy Duty Industrial will remain somewhat the same, but not manufacturing as we think of it now.

    --
    Eyes Open Self-Hypnosis for Victory: Summon the Warrior
    1. Re:Industrial Manufacturing is changing by hypnobuddha · · Score: 1

      Using Slashdot's mobile app (which is excellent btw) but I wasn't aware I needed HTML for simple paragraph breaks.
      You'll just have to imagine them ;-)

      --
      Eyes Open Self-Hypnosis for Victory: Summon the Warrior
  12. Re: the Challenger Disaster? by dgharmon · · Score: 3, Informative

    "Did professional engineers prevent the Challenger Disaster?"

    No, nor did they cause it, what did cause the disaster was political interference, such as the decision to manufacture the solid booster rockets in another state, necessitating them being made from segments bonded together with O-rings .. ref

    --
    AccountKiller
  13. Licensing. It's all about licensing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I was doing some electrical work at an oil refinery up north in Canada about 5 years ago. I wasn't specifically attached to their control systems or PLCs, though since the electrical was intertwined with a bunch of the automation I naturally knew all the guys who were taking care of that portion of the project since we were required to collaborate together.

    On one particular day, I entered the facility as usual and was heading to an unfinished section to check out some conduit. On my way there I noticed a CAT5 cable stretched across a walkway, disappearing into a stairwell. This was so incredibly absurd and suspicious that I just had to see what the hell was going on, even though something in my head told me I didn't want to know. I traced the cable back to the management office where it was plugged into one of the network switches. Okay, weird- follow it back in the opposite direction, all away across the plant- after about 80 meters there was a hub/repeater dangling over a walkway rail plugged into the wall and another CAT5 cable stretching off into the oblivion. Following the second extension cable led me to a set of PLCs and a group of the control guys throwing vulgar insults at an Allen Bradley PLC unit.

    Turns out the PLC was a "new" model. Instead of handling the licensing through a floppy disk (!) like all the old units did, this one used some sort of a proprietary activation scheme that had to run over the friggin' internet before the PLC would actually do anything. The CAT5 cable I'd traced about 180 meters across the plant going back into the office internet connection was setup to allow this process to complete, since they had apparently failed to do it earlier when the system was OOTB but not yet hooked up.

    They eventually got it all working, but it took them about 5 hours of fiddling to get the damned thing working properly.

    Shit like that is the reason why things are hooked up to the internet, sometimes improperly. I know there's certain requirements for remote monitoring and such, and that should all be done over an isolated, encrypted VPN- but then you've got licensing bullshit like this that expects to phone home to a random server on the internet with little or no fire walling in-between. There's no reason for it otherwise- apart from the PLC guys wanting to make sure you're licensed and all paid up, god forbid anyone should buy a second hand PLC and reprogram it to do something useful again.

    -AC

    1. Re:Licensing. It's all about licensing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The only 1-time internet activation required on Allen Bradley equipment is the computer software (RSLogix 500/5000) to program the PLCs, AB PLCs don't need to be activated ever. (new or old).

      As a PLC/PAC guy I am a HUGE fan of Ethernet/IP. It is the best fucking thing ever and people on this thread have no clue about the security of this technology. Try difficult (servos) programing with DeviceNET, Its a fucking joke and a waste of time, old technology. We have to have access to 100's of PLCs on our network to 1 computer for data accusation for the scale weights, which gets emailed to our QA people. Its impracticable any other way.

      Steps to make Ethernet/IP secure (Allen Bradley in particular)... reminder I am an AC
      1) keep the physical key-switch on the PLC in RUN MODE. No virus/program can write to the PLC when it is in this mode (Excluding global tags/variables, so intelligent programming is required).
      2)Firewall, limiting the Ethernet location accessible to the Network we only have 2 ports accessible in our entire plant (outside of the plant floor). Everyone else is denied. And lock those computers down to hardcore.
      3) keep it on a separate subnet (more for speed then security)

      The only thing that scares me is Remote IO over Ethernet/IP (Flexlogix)... because it takes A FULL MINUTE to acquire/connect an IP address at startup before all the moving objects get set to their default positions. and that's a more safety then security issue.

    2. Re:Licensing. It's all about licensing. by inasity_rules · · Score: 1

      I have found DeviceNET a pleasure to work with. Omron do it extremely well, and it is very easy to use. It is also sufficiently fast for most applications. My biggest hassle was connecting a Toshiba PLC to an Omron SliceIO system. Once it was working though, it worked exceptionally well. I'd much rather work with DeviceNET than ethercat or any of the other systems.

      --
      I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
  14. no need for internet connectivity by __aaacoe2998 · · Score: 2

    I've said it before, and I'll say it again: What possible reason could industry have to put controls networks on the internet? I can understand putting some type of reporting on the internet, so the bigwigs can keep track of up to the minute production. *disclaimer: I am an industrial electrician. I work on industrial controls in a sawmill. The day a production foreman asks us to give him control of machinery over the internet is the day I find a new industry.

    1. Re:no need for internet connectivity by thebigmacd · · Score: 2

      This is very common in the HVAC industry. Customers want to be able to check on their building on their smart phone at home over the weekend. Even without that requirement, the systems get put on the local intranet with everything else because the customer will not provide a separate network nor allow us to add our own. Very few of our customers put HVAC controls on separate VLANs with no access to the Internet.

    2. Re:no need for internet connectivity by Jimbookis · · Score: 2

      Yah well I have solution... make them (the managers) utterly aware of the situation and risks in writing so they can't disavow any knowledge when it goes haywire. As an aside the engineer in me says if you want to monitor the state of a HVAC or any control system, keep the control and internet connected networks separate and using a data diode (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidirectional_network) spit out some self contained UDP data with system state information but not allowing any control signals of any kind back into that more secure network.

    3. Re:no need for internet connectivity by murder_face · · Score: 1

      I have seen this first hand with HVAC. I worked on a Walmart in Orange County California and the HVAC guys were having some problems with the EMS controls, instead of just being able to make the adjustments themselves they had to call Bentonville Arkansas and ask the guys there to make a few minor adjustments.

    4. Re:no need for internet connectivity by gman003 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      My father works in an industry that uses a lot of PLCs and such. This is what he's told me:

      Quite often, even though the PLCs run on their own locked-down OS, the console to manage it is just a standard Windows desktop. Kind of logical - it's just to display what's going on, maybe issue manual commands, but it doesn't "run" the system. And they're *designed* to be connected only to the LAN, not have any physical connection to the Internet. But quite often, he comes into an installation site and sees that they've plugged that desktop into the Internet, just because it had a port for it (or so the techs monitoring it 24/7 can relieve the boredom, against all procedure). So they end up connected to the internet just because the off-the-shelf desktop the blinking-lights-display runs on has an Ethernet port.

      He's also told me pretty much everyone keeps the default password. Three fucking characters.

      Would it terrify you to know that many of the sites he works at are power plants, both coal and nuclear? He doesn't touch the "functional" parts, but it still says bad things about their approach to security.

    5. Re:no need for internet connectivity by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      In writing? Jim Books? Everyone else has them accessible on their ipads and iphones and I never hear about any security problem. The only one who has a problem doing this securely over the internet is you! If you are not capable of doing the job do I need to find someone who will do it securely? As a PHB I need up to date information in a modern way like everyone else.

      Sincerely your PHB

      In a more serious note we need to wait for a terrorist attack like what Iran is planning and a possible nuclear power plant meltdown. Only then will the phbs be convinced it is a bad practice and laws against this will take place sadly. When money talks shit walks and it always wins everytime until proven it is a bad idea later.

    6. Re:no need for internet connectivity by inasity_rules · · Score: 2

      Ask him about the horror of OPC and DCOM. As a result of those two abominations most people just disable all security and add "Everyone" to all the lists in order to just get the damn thing working in a reasonable amount of time.

      --
      I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
    7. Re:no need for internet connectivity by shentino · · Score: 1

      And sadly the PHB will have walked away with a big fat bonus long before his short sighted mandates have left a steaming mess for IT to get stuck with being blamed for.

      Just part of being above the peons in the food chain, you get to eat the goodies and everyone below you has to take your shit.

    8. Re:no need for internet connectivity by inasity_rules · · Score: 1

      OPC UA promises to fix all of this, but nobody is implementing it...

      --
      I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
    9. Re:no need for internet connectivity by omglolbah · · Score: 1

      DCOM is the spawn of satan.... ugh

    10. Re:no need for internet connectivity by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      He is unfortunately right, but it's skirting around the larger issue.

      Humans are absolute geniuses when they act like fools. You can't regulate away boredom and idiocy. It's one thing to say, don't plug in USB sticks here it's against company rules, and it's quite another to leave a person alone unsupervised on nightshift with the piece of equipment. I kid you not we had one operator show us triumphantly how he managed to play a movie on the monitor screen of a gas chromatograph analyser, which happened to run windows underneath it's interface. We had another interesting call to fix an ultrasonic flow instrument that was reading funny. Turns out the electronics had been set up with a pipe dimension 8m wide rather than the 200mm. What happened was some operator was trying to sleep, and this unit which was showing an error was beeping at him. So he just started pushing random buttons to try and silence it, which he managed to do quite successfully at the expense of a working instrument.

      To get around these problems you must remove the temptation and to do that the easiest way is to help people be the idiots they want to be. There's a reason that we have a stock standard PC next to every operator station where I work. This PC is internet connected, has USB ports out the wazoo, and the operators generally spend their boredom surfing youtube and watching videos on this expendable PC.

    11. Re:no need for internet connectivity by thebigmacd · · Score: 1

      They want to be able to change setpoints to make people happy...without going in to work. I agree, data diode is a great idea...when you don't need to interact with the system.

  15. the PHB's over redid there issues. by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    the PHB's over redid there issues.

  16. why no dongles? by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    That seams like a good way and they can be hard to copy as well.

    1. Re:why no dongles? by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      Because God forbid someone would sell them used and deny megacorp profits!

      This way everyone is forced to buy new only as if you used a dongle then someone could sell them. Can you imagine how much the car companies would love to make buying used cars illegal?

  17. Re:Just an Iranian terrorist attack by Billly+Gates · · Score: 2

    Sadly no one will listen until something bad happens.

    If you told someone pre-2009 about the need for financial regulations and the upcoming collapse people would call you a communist and a liberal! Peter Schiff did jsut that and was laughed at before he earned fame when the Great Financial Collapse hit.

    Same is true with nuclear powerplants after fukashima, airport security after 9-11, and same after the space shuttle Challenger exploded, IE 6 security after code red. Money talks and shit walks. Only when deemed necessary does something change.

    Right now sadly we might be without power or worse another nuclear powerplant meltdown here in the US caused by Iran before anything gets done. Not unions or professional software orgnaizations or even licensing.

    People hate change and especially MBA PHBs who never have heard of a single internet security attack on a PLC piece of equipment. If you can't do it MR. Slashdotter reading this then someone else will since it is never a problem.... therefore it is perfectly secure etc.

    I mean they hated upgrading browsers too until IE 6 was shown a risk and they still love XP despite it. Why? Money. Until it becomes a liability and laws come into effect and PHBs shit their pants the problem will nto be solved

  18. Re:Yea by ColdWetDog · · Score: 3, Funny

    Actually works better if you read it as 'clown' services.

    --
    Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  19. Re:Speaking of hacks... by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

    Well then, the Gods Must Be Crazy.

    (Actually is happened to me earlier this week. I think it's Obama's fault.)

    --
    Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  20. It's more about lack of knowledge by WebCowboy · · Score: 5, Informative

    The CAT5 cable I'd traced about 180 meters across the plant going back into the office internet connection was setup to allow this process to complete, since they had apparently failed to do it earlier when the system was OOTB but not yet hooked up.

    Assuming it was all Rockwell/Allen+Bradley gear then it was undoubtedly the FactoryTalk Activation system they were struggling with, and they were undoubtedly unqualified to be doing the work they were assigned to do (disclosure: I am a former Rockwell Automation employee so I have familiarity with the subject, but apart from that I do not speak on behalf of any employer past or present here).

    First and foremost, Allen+Bradley(AB) PLCs don't need activations, so the licensing really isn't relevant to this story. AB makes a crap-pile of profit on that hardware the moment they've sold you the box--activation makes no sense. What DOES need to be activated (and is what creates profit for the Rockwell Software division) is the RSLogix programming software, without which the PLC is as useful as a doorstop. So unless they were completely clueless they'd have just taken their laptop into the office and activated their software then come back, rather than break all sorts of IT, security and safety rules stringing out 180m of CAT5 and a spare switch to get internet. The same goes for their drives--the drive units don't need activating but DriveTools software on the programming laptop may have.

    That said, there may have been an industrial PC like a VersaView or third-party unit running the Rockwell HMI software and was bolted into the cabinet with un-activated software for some reason, but Rockwell/AB have thought of that...

    The legacy licensing system used utility software called "EVMove" and relied on "master disks" (towards the end you could set up a USB flash drive) and in the field this was a royal pain in the ass--floppies and their drives are far too sensitive for such an environment, and USB memory sticks are terrible to manage and secure. Thus the development of the FactoryTalk Activation internet service-based scheme. Though it requires the internet the end system does not need to be connected to activate. The easy "wizard" way sends a "host ID" (the ethernet MAC address or some such number) from the end device to Rockwell via the internet. However, you can actually write down the mac address, or generate the hostID file on the target machine, then go to an internet-connected computer and type the hostID into a secure web form or upload the hostID file. The website then generates a license file that you can save to removable media or a laptop/portable machine to take over to the target machine physically, thus preserving the air gap (and making the method more similar to the old EVMove floppy method).

    I do agree that licensing/DRM/activation is a big problem that costs end users millions of dollars globally (above and beyond the actual purchase cost of the products). It adds complication and downtime and confusion and contributes exactly zero value to its users. One might argue about its value to the vendor as well--FactoryTalk activation and many other similar schemes are just as trivial to circumvent as CoDeSys' ladder logic runtime for hackers, and adds the burden of extra support costs from the honest users it keeps honest. But the problem in industrial automation is bigger than that. The problem is that the world in general moves faster than industrial control systems can keep up, and the people who have "experience" honed their skills in the mid 1990s or earlier and haven't kept up. In the meantime, PHBs of the world in management and government demand of them far more than they are capable of delivering.

    It used to be that refineries/factories/etc were content with paper chart recorders where operators and plant managers could peruse them if something came up to troubleshoot. Then came data recorders where you could plug in a serial cable or transfer via floppy to a computer for more deta

    1. Re:It's more about lack of knowledge by inasity_rules · · Score: 2

      You are correct sir. We have never had to connect any PLC to the internet, and we deal with almost all manufacturers. Rockwell's horrible licensing scheme is why we don't use them so much. Other PLC manufacturers give SIs their software cheaply because that sells lots of hardware that way. Not Rockwell. I suppose it is better than Toshiba's "free" software (which I think was last updated in the 90s), but come on, don't Rockwell want to sell hardware? Even the evil Siemens practically fell over themselves trying to sell us their software, with demo versions and SI discounts. And the software from other manufacturers normally lasts more than a year before bombing out. Rockwell are near impossible to deal with for a small SI.

      We normally try to get around the security issue (when an air gap is unpractical) by having a separate control network with one PC on both networks. This isn't the best of solutions, but it is probably the most practical we've come up with.

      --
      I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
  21. Car analogies are passe so here is a sex analogy. by WebCowboy · · Score: 2

    Preaching that automation systems be kept off the internet is like preaching abstinance until marriage to teens. It sounds like the lgical solution to all the problems but it is unreasonalbe to ever expect it to happen, so the best course of action is to educate on how to do it safely and responsibly.

    Ther are many valid reasons that automation systems are connected to the internet in some fashion (though they never need direct internet access). Some of those reasons relate to not braking the law.

    In industries like oil and gas, regulators require data to be collected 24/7/365 on all critical aspects of an operation. If an environmental or safety incedent were to happen and such data was not available for scruitiny it could lead to the permanent closure of that operation in extreme cases. Lack of due diligence in such matters can mean huge monetary fines and even jail time for wilful violations.

    As such, in those operations a "process historian" server is standard equipment. These are central data logging servers that have essentally full read-only access to the industrila control system, and even some limited write access too (say, to assert a bit in a PLC to confirm it has received data, or to reset a totaliser or set a new batch number). Becasue of how vital the data is, there has to be some way to get the data off-site for archival and reporting purposes, and because of the volume of data and the immediacy that is demanded removable media is not an option. Thus these systems end up with some means of corporate network access. This does NOT mean the need "direct internet" access, but very commonly it means tunnelling through public/internet infrastructure via VPN (the "condom" if you will). Though technological measures can be taken to make this route into the plant impeneratable, it is complex enough to set up that people make mistakes and thus you end up with "holes in the condom".

    The other use for outside conenctivity relates to support from off-site engineers, vendors and operators. A control system can be set up to report critical alarm conditions to smartphones, email inboxes and the like automatically with much more rapidness than a human operator at the board can do. The more rapid response to a critical incident the less likelihood for loss of revenue, damage to equipment, and injury or death of workers (again, in the case of "sour sites"--thouse that deal with natural gas containing deadly H2S, rapid response is vital to evacuate the facility and surrounding area and some of these are required by law).

    So "preaching abstinence" in the complete absence of "sex education" is a bad idea. It is ineffective to say "disconenct from the internet" and not say how you can manage network security safely and responsibly, because at some point these people will be pressured into doing it and need to be able to "say no" if they aren't ready, and to know when and why it is "the right time", becasue if you DO use that internet connection responsibly it can actually be a great experience ;-)

  22. Re:Just an Iranian terrorist attack by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Necessity is the mother of invention. That, or an article in the business newspaper your boss reads.

    My solution to that problem was simply to subscribe to the same magazines my boss reads, peruse them for articles supporting my case and getting him to read it. Not only will he listen to them more than to you, he'll also think that you read "relevant" magazines and start listening to you, at least from time to time.

    I know it's silly. hey, it's management!

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  23. Slight plug here, and I told you so. by bytesex · · Score: 1

    We've been saying this for years, but then again - our company makes data diodes.

    --
    Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
    1. Re:Slight plug here, and I told you so. by omglolbah · · Score: 1

      Try this on for size.....

      3rd party logging vendor is given permission to run their logging servers on the secure network.
      They require 5 open ports (7777, 25xxx) open both ways in the firewall.
      They use ping to verify redundancy of hosts (derp...) so pinging through the firewall for all hosts has to be enabled/accepted.
      Their logging software can be fully configured and modified from outside the firewall. They use simple tcp sockets with no encryption to send their management commands... like starting and stopping windows services.

      This was accepted and verified by the IT security staff of a major oil company recently.
      Even after it was demonstrated that it was close to trivial to perform denial of service attacks on the system with the now open ports and their badly written software....

      You can build a perfect system, but when nobody in management knows or cares... you're screwed either way...
      All I can do is get a ton of paperwork showing that we think it is a horrible idea to do it this way, provide an option which is a hell of a lot more secure (but rejected by the customer) and cover my/our asses in all ways possible...
      Because sooner or later shit hits the fan...

  24. Re:Just an Iranian terrorist attack by bbelt16ag · · Score: 1

    isn't this why we have think tanks though? people who think up the worst possible scenario? then they find a way to fix it? you could even make it like a Reddit for professionals, who can post ideas and up vote them? en-mass idea generator... ?

    --
    NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER GIVE UP! "No limitations, no boundaries, there is no reason for them."
  25. Re:No Need For Physically Separate Networks by inasity_rules · · Score: 1

    "Passwords will be forgotten". I don't recall saying that. Perhaps let me spell it out for you AC. The password may never have been given in the first place. A common despicable tactic by some less scrupulous vendors and SIs.

    As for "Linux will fix it", we know about that, and sometimes use it. However, there are other very good reasons for having your control network physically separate apart from security. Network load and response times spring to mind. But then Slashdot's default "throw linux at it and your problems will magically go away" response is hardly surprising.

    --
    I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
  26. You Are Clueless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    No security expert will code their own software as long as OpenSSL, IPSEC, GPG and so on will do the job. Too expensive and too many mistakes to be make by bespoke software.

    I suggest you hire one of these bearded Unix admins with some real crypto and networking experience and he is going to sort out the security issues in short order. Just listen to his advice and don't fuck his advice up with some el-stupido low-level requirement such as "PLC must talk directly to enterprise datat warehouse SQL server". Set up a clean, simple concept with defined interfaces and application-level firewalls which control the data flow in/out of the PLC secure VPN (delivered by BSD or Linux) and ensures sanity of any data inflowing. Don't bother too much about data flowing out, that is only a concern regarding industrial secrets and we all know the average corporate intranet is Insecure As Hell.

    1. Re:You Are Clueless by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2

      No security expert will code their own software as long as OpenSSL, IPSEC, GPG and so on will do the job. Too expensive and too many mistakes to be make by bespoke software.

      You sure about that? I mean, it's one thing to try to write a correct implementation of a very generic protocol (the ones you named), but who is to say that a tailored protocol sporting just the things you need for the app and nothing else can't be correctly implemented with a much lesser effort?

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
  27. Excellent Linux Security (not) 2011-2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    2012:

    Medicaid hack update: 500,000 records and 280,000 SSNs stolen:

    http://www.zdnet.com/blog/security/medicaid-hack-update-500000-records-and-280000-ssns-stolen/11444

    So, what's dts.utah.gov running everyone?

    LINUX (and yes, it got HACKED) -> http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=dts.utah.gov

    What's health.utah.gov running too??

    YOU GUESSED IT: LINUX AGAIN -> http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=health.utah.gov

    * Ah, yes - see the YEARS OF /. "BS" FUD is CRUMBLING AROUND THE PENGUINS EARS HERE & 2012's starting out just like 2011 did below!

    ===

    2011:

    KERNEL.ORG COMPROMISED - The Cracking of Kernel.org: (that's VERY bad - do you trust it now?)

    http://linux.slashdot.org/story/11/08/31/2321232/Kernelorg-Compromised

    ---

    Linux.com pwned in fresh round of cyber break-ins:

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/09/12/more_linux_sites_down/

    ---

    Mysql.com Hacked, Made To Serve Malware:

    http://it.slashdot.org/story/11/09/26/2218238/mysqlcom-hacked-made-to-serve-malware

    What's that site running? You guessed it - Linux -> http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=mysql.com

    ---

    London Stock Exchange serving malware:

    http://slashdot.org/submission/1484548/London-Stock-Exchange-Web-Site-Serving-Malware

    (I mean hey - NOT ONLY DID LINUX FALL FLAT ON ITS FACE less than a few minutes into the job http://linux.slashdot.org/story/11/02/19/0147232/London-Stock-Exchange-Price-Errors-Emerged-At-Linux-Launch, & crash not only ONCE, but TWICE there? You see "Linux 'fine security'" in motion @ the LSE too!)

    ---

    DUQU ROOTKIT/BOTNET BEING SERVED FROM LINUX SERVERS:

    http://it.slashdot.org/story/11/11/30/1610228/duqu-attackers-managed-to-wipe-cc-servers

    ---

    Linux Foundation, Linux.com Sites Down To Fix Security Breach:

    http://linux.slashdot.org/story/11/09/11/1325212/linux-foundation-linuxcom-sites-down-to-fix-security-breach

    ---

    Linux's showing in CA's breached recently too? Ok: (very, Very, VERY BAD for ecommerce, online shopping, banking, etc./et al)

    http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=StartCom.com

    http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=GlobalSign.com

    http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=Comodo.com

    http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=DigiCert.com

    http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.gemnet.nl

    The list of CA Servers BREACHED that RUN LINUX (StartCom, GlobalSign, DigiCert, Comodo, GemNet)... per these articles verifying that:

    http://itproafrica.com/technology/security/cas-hacked/

    &

    http://threatpost.com/en_us/blogs/site-dutch-ca-gemnet-offline-after-web-server-attack-120811

    ---

    The Stratfor SECURITY hack: (can't blame it on poor setup, this IS a security firm that uses Linux)

    http://yro.slashdot.org/story/11/12/28/1743201/data-exposed-in-stratfor-compromise-analyzed

    What's that domain run? Yes kids - you guessed it: LINUX -> http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.stratfor.com

    ---

    Phishers/Spammers FAVOR attacking LAMP: (Linux, Apache, mySQL, PHP)

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/10/domains_lamped/

    PERTINENT QUOTE/EXCERPT:

    "Phishers compromise LAMP-based websites for days at a time and hit the same victims over and over again, according to an Anti-Phishing Working Group survey. Sites built on Linux, Apache, MySQL and PHP are the favoured targets of phishing attackers"

    ---

    Toss ANDROID (yes, a Linux since it uses a Linux kernel) in also, since it's being "shredded" on the mobile phone security-front rampantly for years now?

    * You get the picture...

    APK

    P.S.=> Linux Security Blunders DOMINATE in 2011-2012, despite all /. "FUD" for years saying "Linux = SECURE" (what "b.s."/FUD that's turning out to be, especially on ANDROID where it can't hide by "security-by-obscurity" anymore & is in the hands of non-tech users galore - & EXPLOITS ARE EXPLODING ON ANDROID, nearly daily)

    ... apk

  28. Re:No Need For Physically Separate Networks by inasity_rules · · Score: 2

    Ethernet is actually good enough for a number of things if and only if the network is unloaded. Reading values from a Modbus based protection relay for example. The values are not critical and even if the network fails the protection relay will still trip, but they are useful values to have and mean someone doesn't have to keep walking into the substation to look at them. I can think of a number of other such use cases where ethernet/ip is more than good enough. For remote IO, I would use something better, like DeviceNET(RS485, basically). But Even then, some remote ethernet IO is also good enough. It depends entirely on your use case. One size does not fit all. I am quite aware of the limitations of ethernet IP, and a lot of systems use the same physical layer as ethernet, but make special hubs (remember those?) mandatory instead of switches. I believe ethercat is one such system if you must know. In general ethernet IP is more than sufficient for any SCADA system (with a few exceptions). Time critical stuff should always be done in the (far more reliable) PLC not the (inherently suspect) SCADA system. But that is standard practice. Mostly. I have seen some horrible systems....

    My skillset includes setting up linux security as well as programming PLCs and setting up windows security. I run various OS systems in industrial environments. But it is obvious you have never really worked with these systems? Your ideals are nice, but the real world called and wants to know if you'd like to meet for coffee sometime.

    When people buy a machine they buy a machine. They don't think about the password because they bought a machine and they need no password to operate it. The salesman comes in and gives his spiel, and then they buy it. The SI or manufacturer password protects the PLC to protect his "IP" and that is that. It is annoying, yes, but I am more inclined to blame the SI/manufacturer than the customer. The customer's skillset does not include programming the PLC and if the system is made right, it should not have to. That is the point of the entire system - so that the customer does not have to worry about it. That is what sells. That is how it is, and how it works, and it is unlikely to change.

    --
    I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
  29. Does Engrish on the 3S Software site... by Svartalf · · Score: 1

    ...concern anyone?

    "We software Automation." is prominently put up on their website...a German company's TYPICALLY better at English than that.

    --
    I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
  30. Noobz? Kernel.org = NOOBZ?? LMAO... apk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Let's examine your "list of 'noobz'" then, shall we? Ok, here we go:

    ---

    1.) Noobz - like kernel.org, maintainers of the LINUX kernel iirc?

    2.) Noobz - like STRATFOR (a security company no less, lol) ???

    3.) Noobz - like London Stock Exchange????

    4.) Noobz - like NUMEROUS BREACHED CA's?????

    5.) Noobz - like mysql.com??????

    6.) Noobz - like linux.com??

    ---

    * Yea, lol, riiiighhtt... some "noobz" in that list above, eh?

    APK

    P.S.=> Fools was more like it, believing the "hype" that "Linux = invulnerable" which WE ALL HEARD HERE ON /. FOR TOO MANY YEARS now...

    Funny how THAT is especially "falling apart" considering ANDROID (yes, a Linux variant itself) most of all, eh? No more hiding behind "security-by-obscurity" Penguins... your OS is OUT THERE, being torn apart, along with years of /. "FUD" too!

    ... apk

  31. Ok, let me explain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I have no doubt the average programmer can hack up something we can call an "encrypted TCP session". But it probably is

    - not safe against replay attacks

    - reusing session keys

    - not integrity-protected (switching a bit in the cipherstream will switch one or more bits in the cleartext without your app knowing)

    - not safe against low-level attacks against the crypto/session establishment parameter parser

    - not properly vouching for the identity of both communication partners

    There has a lot of work gone into getting this correctly done in SSL and its successor TLS. Even they made a couple of mistakes which had to be fixed. Chances are 99 to 1 you cannot easily get the same security level as you can get by simply coding against OpenSSL or GnuPG. Just using OpenSSL is a challenge for many, because they don't properly understand the concepts behind Public Key crypto. But replicating SSL/TLS - that is by far out of the technical and financial reach of most developers and their bosses.

    So - just take OpenSSL and integrate it properly into your product. Make your boss send you to a training regarding the basics of PK Crypto, if your experience is only superficial. Or hire an known expert and let him show and explain you how to do it.

    Read and try to understand Schneier's Applied Cryptography, play with the gpg and openssl command line programs, read code samples. This is not a "quick addition of capability", it is actually the painful and time-consuming acquisition of expertise. Management idiots don't appreciate this. Redmond fucked up their crypto efforts in the first iteration. Now they are somewhat better.

  32. Obligatory by m1ndcrash · · Score: 1

    Fire sail. Bruce Willis is getting old to save our asses.

  33. Re:Secure VPNs Are NOT Difficult by omglolbah · · Score: 1

    Um... 2000 dollars in a perfect world of milk and honey.

    Set up a test network
    Do all internal testing and documentation of the system
    Get all docs verified by the customer and signed off on
    Hold a factory acceptance test, get everything verified and signed off
    Travel to the oil rig.
    Oh, your tech IS certified for offshore work right? No? Oh, send him on the full week 5000 dollar training course first then.
    Install and get everything verified in real system

    Oh, and this has to run on Windows 2003 R2 by the way, that is the chosen platform for the HMI...

    Easily comes to 50k USD doing this job. Not that big a cost in comparison to other expenses, but it is a bit of an expense to justify to someone who knows nothing about security... sigh

  34. Re:No shit by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    I've seen air gaps cause problems, especially when they're between the user's ears.

    Of course one solution is to install another air gap between the eyes, but this is generally frowned upon by both HR and the janitors.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  35. Re:More "spin"? LMAO, please... apk by mich.linux.guy · · Score: 1

    I call bullshit. Linux and Android are not the same thing. Saying "Linux is no more 'invulnerable' to attack & exploit than Windows is" is just plain wrong.

  36. They were just talking about a digital pearl harbo by davydagger · · Score: 1

    "Worse, many of these systems are unneccessarily connected to the Internet,"

    Instead of spending the oodles of money for those worthless airport scanners, department of defense boondoggles, and useless shit, flame, etc...

    we could have spent the money to develop an ultra secure replacement for hardware controllers, and manditory audits of mission critical systems, and unplugged needlessly internet connected components from the internet.

    Instead we spent our money foolishly on shit we don't need.

    I am calling for the same people in the NSA who do the SHA and AES competitions to do something along these lines, because they've already proved themselves competitant, where other branches fail.

  37. What happen? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    They might want to describe custom chemical mixtures by means of an Excel file and that information has to be somehow communicated to the PLCs.

    Somebody load us up the bomb.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  38. Re:Just an Iranian terrorist attack by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    My solution to that problem was simply to subscribe to the same magazines my boss reads, peruse them for articles supporting my case and getting him to read it.

    Or start your own magazine.

    I did consider bringing out "Management Fad Monthly" but I was worried that some silly bugger might try to implement an obvious spoof like TQM, stand-up meetings or employing Indian programmers, and then where would we be?

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  39. Re:Example Of Faulty Crypto by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

    As far as I am aware, session key is a feature of cryptosystems employing either public-key encryption or some secure key exchange scheme to distribute keys in a changing topology of communicating nodes. Do you actually need to do this in a fixed industrial setup with specialized HW? As far as I know, the military has no problem with using key fill devices. (Just asking, I don't pretend to be an expert on that, just an interested reader.)

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
  40. Re: the Challenger Disaster? by sjames · · Score: 1

    What do you think will happen when managers learn how much software that gets signed off by a PE costs and how long it takes to develop?

  41. Re:Just an Iranian terrorist attack by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    Hey, stop that! You're threatening my job, because coming up with harebrained ideas how to hack our security IS my job!

    And damn, I love it!

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.